Author Topic: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?  (Read 1562 times)

SCC

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Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« on: 01 February 2020, 05:42:11 »
So I want to know if people that that the advancement of background tech during the SW would be believable? I'm specifically looking a having Hanse getting SL navigational/K-F information obtained during the Halstead Station raid and realize that whilst something something might have been dangerous during the time of the SL, that isn't the case anymore. My explanation for why C* hasn't caught onto/done anything about this is because most, if not all, of the developments have been theoretical breakthroughs and it doesn't directly affect war-fighting.

Fat Guy

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #1 on: 01 February 2020, 11:21:54 »
If anything stretched credibility, it was the level of tech degradation during the Succession Wars.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #2 on: 01 February 2020, 12:35:20 »

Around or after Hanse?  Sure.  The Succession Wars long ago burned themselves out so entire planets are no longer being lost to WMDs and their knock-on effects.  Hanse establishes the NAIS so there is a core of expertise that can take advantage of lostech discoveries.  And the fiat in that era favors the recovery of technology... Grey Death core, successful defense of NAIS against ComStar black ops at the tail end of the 4th Succession War, etc.

Before Hanse?  No, the fiat favors Mad Max.


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Daryk

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #3 on: 01 February 2020, 12:46:21 »
Ian didn't predate Hanse by that much, but I'd extend it to him too...

RifleMech

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #4 on: 02 February 2020, 09:19:33 »
It was believable. It started before Hanse. Comstar just kept killing off the researchers before they got too far. Hanse finally managed to keep them safe. Tech advance was slow though until the Helm Memory Core. Most advancements never got beyond prototypes. It wasn't unit researchers started going through the memory core that tech recovery sped up.

massey

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #5 on: 02 February 2020, 12:12:33 »
The tech degradation of the Succession Wars was probably due, in large part, to the massive losses of infrastructure and trade routes.

Let's say you've got a factory that is churning out Lancelot battlemechs.  Then the First Succession War hits.  Even if your factory doesn't get bombed, you still might not be able to continue producing your mechs.  What if the Happy Freight Shipping Company (who has always delivered your orders of XL Engines from some distant planet) has their jumpfleet wiped out?  You try to get another company to deliver, but things are tough all over, and maybe there's just not enough shipping capacity now.

Or what if the planet you're on doesn't get hit, but it does require specialized parts to keep its water purification system operational.  Some far away world gets nuked, and they were the ones that made those specialized parts.  Now it's only a matter of time before your planet can't support its population.  Now that might take 50 years before the lack of parts becomes a big problem, but it's coming.

The First and Second Succession Wars blasted apart a bunch of highly interconnected economies, and things continued to fall apart during the long Third SW.  It doesn't mean that people were getting dumber or forgetting how to make things, or that they lost the ability to invent stuff.  It just means that by the 3rd SW, everything was falling apart.  It would be no big surprise if you had to shut down your factory because that last jumpship finally breathed its last, and the factory that makes new jumpships can't be restarted because there's a missing piece that isn't made anymore.

The speed of the tech recovery after finding the Helm Memory Core seems to suggest that a lot of Inner Sphere factories weren't annihilated, they were just dormant.  I don't think that was the intention during the early days of Battletech, but post-Clan Invasion when FASA needed the IS to jump-start production, it became that.  Now many factories were just waiting on a few key replacement parts.  Once they found the HMC, people on various planets would have had the info on how to make those replacement parts that they had long needed, and then it was only about 20 years before they were climbing back to pre-SW levels of technology and production.

If that's the case, then ComStar's assassinations could be seen more like a desperate attempt to prevent an inevitable tech revival, rather than them systematically kicking the Inner Sphere down the tech tree.  ComStar had been playing whack-a-mole trying to stop people from rediscovering everything, but the HMC meant that it started happening too fast for them to keep up.

So no, I don't think it's unreasonable to have someone figure out a problem that the Star League had been chewing on.  It sounds like you only need someone to find a Star League research facility who were this close to discovering a new thing, and then they figure out whatever the last step is.  Shouldn't be too hard to believe.

dgorsman

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #6 on: 02 February 2020, 13:02:33 »
I wouldn't say completely dormant.  Factories that were mothballed would have been gradually scrapped for usable parts in other, functional ones, just like Mechs.

And then there are knock-on effects.  That factory that gets shut down is no longer ordering and paying for a whole load of parts, which affects those factories.  And that carries through right back to raw materials extraction.
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General308

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #7 on: 02 February 2020, 13:59:27 »
If anything stretched credibility, it was the level of tech degradation during the Succession Wars.

Not the first time in history were massive amounts of technology have been lost

SteelRaven

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #8 on: 02 February 2020, 15:41:39 »
With the rule of new fluff trumping old, the Battledriod setup of Mad Max in Space went out the window by the time of Battletech 2nd Edition.

Yes, there are still spots that are really bad but not every corner of the inner sphere was on the brink. The biggest problem was the consolidation of knowledge of resources with continuous warfare and ComStar constantly sabotaging things. The Helm Memory Core would be pretty useless if you didn't have engineers and other technicians who recognize the data like the metallurgy of endo-steel.         

Plus the tech advances are not really that advance. People talk up the Blazer like it's a proto Heavy Lasers when it's really just two large lasers franknstiened together. Same with the freezers which are just very, very bad attempts at recreating DHS

Besides, lost tech as a whole was written to be a mcguffin from the beginning of the game. You only write about something that is 'lost' so you can eventually find it again ;)     
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Daryk

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #9 on: 02 February 2020, 15:45:42 »
I, for one, don't talk up the Blazer Cannon like it's a Heavy Laser... the Frankenstein quality sings to me, and is actually the main attraction.  I've long head cannoned the shipped version simply being two Large Laser cores, a roll of duct tape and instructions...

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #10 on: 02 February 2020, 16:59:54 »
I think a lot of the destruction of the 1/2 SW was "damage" not "destruction".

I mean, if I shot up the engine of your car, it wouldn't start,  that doesn't mean its a radioactive wasteland or an empty shell.

It just means I blew apart several components.

If you do this to several factories & trash the bus (Jumpship) routes to the point that they barely run, then its going to be hard to get things "fixed".

Sometimes you juryrig things together & for a while but eventually patches fail.

The NAIS books gave them a huge library to work with & a place to bring lots of minds together in a safe environment.

Then the Helm Core opened up that library to a whole new level of information,  adding wings to the library on additional subjects.

Finally you just have the FC alliance where 2 houses started working together economically allowing them both access to each others knowledge & resources.

Combine all that & you now get repairs going faster than the destruction.

You get new minds learning faster than C* is killing off the old ones,  etc etc.

Its not like there aren't examples outside of Terra where SLDF tech had been kept going.

Some units or families had passed down tech info to maintain SLDF level mechs.

The factory on New Avalon was still running on Autopilot even though they didn't have a full understanding of how it was doing so.

In a lot of cases I'm sure the issue was 1 missing piece that stopped the operation from running.

3020 changed that & started repairing those broken pieces.
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truetanker

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #11 on: 02 February 2020, 18:06:28 »
Like how the Niops knew exactly enough to hand build their militia forces...

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RifleMech

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #12 on: 03 February 2020, 07:33:30 »
I think the factories that got mothballed did so because of; lack of parts, damage, and cannibalization. Factories kept going as long as they could, switching to different things or just making parts until they it just wasn't worth it to keep them open. Then they were mothballed with parts being taken to keep more secure less damaged factories that were closer to supply lines going. Once things turned around those factories were repaired and reopened.

I do think that some knowledge for technology was lost over the years. Knowledge is being lost now. It happens all the time, especially if that knowledge isn't being used. And there was a lot of knowledge that wasn't used during the Succession Wars. I think that's what made it so easy for Comstar to sabotage the IS recovery. When individuals and small groups recovered enough knowledge to be a threat, Comstar stepped in before they could make use of that knowledge. Once the NAIS got going though it was harder for Comstar to eliminate them. Then the memory core got spread around and there were too many people to eliminate.

   
Plus the tech advances are not really that advance. People talk up the Blazer like it's a proto Heavy Lasers when it's really just two large lasers franknstiened together. Same with the freezers which are just very, very bad attempts at recreating DHS

I agree that the advances weren't that advanced. However, they were taking steps forward and in some cases the tech was even better than Star League Tech.

Double Strength Heat Sinks for example only took one critical slot but removed two heat. That makes them a lot smaller than SL three critical slot DHS.  Unfortunately, DSHS were retconned out and replaced with Reunification War Era DHS-Ps. I wish they hadn't as it continues to cause problems.  :(

The other better tech would be the Prototype Improved Jump Jets. Same weight and crits as standard JJ but Mechs could now jump up to their running speed.

smcwatt

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #13 on: 03 February 2020, 07:52:47 »
I've always seen the Fall of Star League like the breakup of the Roman Empire. Central authority has collapsed, but in some areas it was a slow decline measured in generations, while in some places it was prosperity to Mad Max in a single generation (like Britain after the Romans left). Liberally salt with CBRN attacks and orbital bombardments to simulate events like the Justinian plagues, and within a hundred years you have a new Dark Age. You can see where the original writers got their inspirations.

As to the original question, there is a point where the tech recovery begins in the story, so incorporating it into your own campaign doesn't seem outrageous.

SMc.

truetanker

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #14 on: 03 February 2020, 10:44:41 »
I want to say that the technology only stop advancing because of the decline in materials, expertise and the ability to produce it in mass numbers was eliminated during the Successor Wars. Continuing to decline even through the clan invasion. While knowledge of this technology never ceased to exist, because once something is written down and copied and stored properly one never loses this , it's the expertise and the raw materials that makes it harder to advance.

In other words, if someone finds Somethin recovered of Lost Tech, Comstar would have found out... Because the recovery team announced it, after all Comstar controls the HPG networks. By this I mean somebody's trying to sell something located on so-so place,  just think cyber data mining. Where Comstar knows the cipher!  Cuz how do you describe something without a codeword known beforehand... Like The package is delivered, or, Objective secured. Next time you try selling something that you don't know how to describe it without open details.

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dgorsman

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #15 on: 03 February 2020, 12:02:27 »
"Copied and stored properly" isn't a good guarantee.  For example, at the end of the Jihad there were instances of totally offline repositories burning to the ground.  Earlier there were examples of logic bombs and other cyberwar techniques which either compromised storage or rendered them useless by threat of compromise.  All of which is within the capabilities of the old ComStar.

Recovery can also be an issue.  Rather than blunt assassination or "lab accidents", experiments can be doctored to generate misleading information.  So that research project trying to get the basic structure of endo steel is barking up the wrong tree, wasting resources for years.
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RifleMech

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #16 on: 04 February 2020, 00:23:52 »
"Copied and stored properly" isn't a good guarantee.  For example, at the end of the Jihad there were instances of totally offline repositories burning to the ground.  Earlier there were examples of logic bombs and other cyberwar techniques which either compromised storage or rendered them useless by threat of compromise.  All of which is within the capabilities of the old ComStar.

Recovery can also be an issue.  Rather than blunt assassination or "lab accidents", experiments can be doctored to generate misleading information.  So that research project trying to get the basic structure of endo steel is barking up the wrong tree, wasting resources for years.

Agree and it doesn't even have to be a violent event that renders the media unreadable. It can be in a language no one now living can read and there's no translation notes available. There's text scientists still can't read.

Also it could be in a media that no one uses anymore like 5.25 in floppy disks.  or using a program or operating system that modern ones can't read.

truetanker

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #17 on: 04 February 2020, 20:15:03 »
There's that bio lock things as well...

TT
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dgorsman

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #18 on: 04 February 2020, 21:28:55 »
Just imaging hordes of ComStar adepts roaming the cities of the Inner Sphere during the 1st and 2nd war, buying up everything with a 5 1/4 or 8 inch floppy drives.   ;D
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RifleMech

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Re: Tech Advance During Succession Wars Believable?
« Reply #19 on: 04 February 2020, 22:32:36 »
No wonder I can't find one!

 

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