What are the cannon munckin machines?

[Fear Factory]

The Wolverine is a close one. It is a beast, though.

Mine is based on the era if you run it in MegaMek. I've seen it happen.

[klarg1]

You can't technically dump ammo under introductory rules. (Of course, nothing forbids using standard rules for introductory games.)

I really don't see why you'd dump ammo from Wolverine 6M. SRM-6 is good.

I'm pretty sure they're referring to the introductory technology level, rather than game play rules.

[Empyrus]

I'm pretty sure they're referring to the introductory technology level, rather than game play rules.

Yeah, probably. But since intro designs and rules commonly go together... no weaseling out of weaknesses there  :thumbsup:
Honestly, it is more fun to play intro games with standard rules. Stuff like indirect fire is interesting and fun option in low-tech games.

[Natasha Kerensky]

The 3025 "fear of ammo and low armor" munchkin list:

Add the MAD-4A Marauder II (production start in 3012) as the epitome of this design philosophy.

In more modern terms, the Dire Wolf Widowmaker and Dire Wolf Hohiro are right up there for their multiple Clan pulses, big hole-punchers, and maxed armor.

[Charlie Tango]

Nova Cat F

Ugh.  you can say that again.

Literally 1/3 of the players in the  Battletech Open at Gen Con one year were running a Nova Cat F.

[Jellico]

The 3025 "fear of ammo and low armor" munchkin list:

JVN-10F Javelin "Fire Javelin"
FS9-M Firestarter "Mirage"
JR7-F Jenner
WLF-1 Wolfhound
VL-5T Vulcan*
BJ-1BD Blackjack
PXH-1D/1K Phoenix Hawk
HBK-4P Hunchback
CPLT-K2 Catapult*
WHM-6D Warhammer
MAD-3D Marauder
AWS-8Q Awesome
CGR-SB Charger "Challenger"
BLR-1D BattleMaster*

* Ammo is usually dumped 1st round.

Ah yes. The standard 3025 Davion line up. Seriously 8 of the 14 are Davion or FedCom refits. There is a reason for the reputation 😉

As I have played more I have feared those quad LPL or ERPPC rigs less and less. Yes they are very good at what they do. Yes they require little skill to do it. But like all Battletech long ranged weapons their damage to weight ratios are poor. In the case of LPLs they don't scale well with better pilots because they already start on the downward slope of the bell curve.
Speed and terrain seems to be the key. Mechs like Novas can get in and run their day with clockwork tactics. Last time I did some play testing I used a Hellstar as a benchmark and it rapidly became a patsy reliance on head hits for victory against a variety of TRO3145 Mechs.

[StoneRhino]

... and I'm done taking any of this forum seriously.

Honestly, anyone who thinks the Charger SB is cheese is stuck in the Battledroids era.

Did the OP mention a certain era, or cut off point? Looking at it's 4 LLs and 28 heatsinks is pretty damn close to being what others consider to be cheese. Personally, if people are using BV2, there really isn't to much to be considered cheese.

[marauder648]

And no one's mentioned the Rifleman IIC yet. For shame!

4 x LPLs and it dissipates 38 heat.  Sure its slow but Clan large pulse lasers have that nasty range to them and its not going to be missing.

[Kharim]

Septicemia BZ
-2xCLPL
-TC
-jumps 7
-Nova CEWS
-light TAG

[Major Headcase]

Whatever mech just finished murdering me in 4 turns or less....  xp

[grimlock1]

Did the OP mention a certain era, or cut off point? Looking at it's 4 LLs and 28 heatsinks is pretty damn close to being what others consider to be cheese. Personally, if people are using BV2, there really isn't to much to be considered cheese.

No, I didn't mention era or tech cutoffs. 

Whatever mech just finished murdering me in 4 turns or less....  xp

I was asking less about those mechs, and more about the "This thing is practically cheating.  I feel too guilty to ever use it again..."

What about other units?  BA, Protos, vehicles, aero?

[Colt Ward]

Since BA, Vehicle and Protos all have things in the rules that set them up to be weak for fluff reasons, its hard to say any of them are OP- especially since Hovers got the TW nerf.

ASF . . . well, under current rules there are a few monsters.  Hydaspes seemed to be the first (who cares its secondline, its a murder brick) followed by the Eisensturm R3 and its Omni follow on.  In fact the Eisensturm D is a great interceptor, the only tweak to performance would be to rework a R3 to that weapons load and re-skin in reflective armor when that becomes commonly available later.

[pat_hdx]

Bane 3?
Novacat B?
Thunderhawk?
Annihalator ANH-1E, and the various Gauss crazy variants?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Nothing with an IS XL Engine should be on this list.  And mechs with an IS XL engine and both side torsos filled with things that go boom when critted especially shouldn't be on the list.

[Brakiel]

Nothing with an IS XL Engine should be on this list.  And mechs with an IS XL engine and both side torsos filled with things that go boom when critted especially shouldn't be on the list.

Disagree. If a XL engine can enable options that aren't possible with a standard or Light engine (like being able to get a +4 or +5 movement mod), then it should be on the list. It's all about that min-maxing.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but part of that is survivability . . . Clan XLs and IS LFEs get excused b/c you can lose a torso and still be functional.

After looking it up, I can understand why the F would get the cheese call . . . but the A?  Granted I love it b/c 4 of the best weapons and the sinks to fire them while being mobile . . . and the B?  A missile boat?

[Empyrus]

IS LFEs get excused b/c you can lose a torso and still be functional.

Does it get excused? I feel like common sentiment is that IS LFE's are waste, offering little weight savings (that probably could be obtained otherwise) for ultimately much more vulnerable engine.
Mind you, i don't think this, i like LFEs, and design-wise i find them more interesting than the super-powerful Clan XL engines.

[Kidd]

but the A?  Granted I love it b/c 4 of the best weapons and the sinks to fire them while being mobile . . .

Don't forget the tarcomp

[JadeHellbringer]

Bane 3.

We're done here. I can throw a full ton of warheads into the air in a turn, and while the heat is going to be a little uncomfortable I'll happily cool down the following turn while my target staggers in its death throes. There's just nothing like telling someone across the table that you're firing EIGHT LRM-15s at them- even if they know what you're using, it still gets their attention.

[grimlock1]

I want to throw Ebon Jaguar B into the mix but the heat curve on that thing makes 3025 look like the good old days when engineers knew how to install heat sinks.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Bane 3.

We're done here. I can throw a full ton of warheads into the air in a turn, and while the heat is going to be a little uncomfortable I'll happily cool down the following turn while my target staggers in its death throes. There's just nothing like telling someone across the table that you're firing EIGHT LRM-15s at them- even if they know what you're using, it still gets their attention.

And they are eight Clan LRM's , which means I can do that at any range. Not to mention I can do that for sixteen turns straight.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Disagree. If a XL engine can enable options that aren't possible with a standard or Light engine (like being able to get a +4 or +5 movement mod), then it should be on the list. It's all about that min-maxing.

See, to me, a munchkin design is not just min-maxed, it's designed to be run by someone who doesn't think about their next move beyond "I fire all my weapons."  You don't have to maximize your TMM to avoid death, nothing short of a lucky head hit or TAC to the center torso is going to take you out of the fight, and you can just sit there mashing the alpha strike button until the match is over.

So something like the Thunderhawk is right off the list, because those torso-mounted Gauss Rifles with that XL engine make it far too vulnerable to being shot.

Likewise, the Cauldron Born B is off the list because that insane heat curve means that you have to play very, very smart if you don't want to leave yourself shutdown and vulnerable by the second round of fire.

[Colt Ward]

Don't forget the tarcomp

Yeah, but the common complaint is a TC & Pulse- not just that a TC is on something.

[Firesprocket]

Turkina Z. 

[Kit deSummersville]

Bane 3.

We're done here. I can throw a full ton of warheads into the air in a turn, and while the heat is going to be a little uncomfortable I'll happily cool down the following turn while my target staggers in its death throes. There's just nothing like telling someone across the table that you're firing EIGHT LRM-15s at them- even if they know what you're using, it still gets their attention.

Oh I'll see your 8 LRM-15s for a single point and raise you 2 more with 5 Svartalfa 2s. And no heat issues here.  ^-^

Also, the Flamberge 2, for when you need a heavy 'Mech jumping 7 to drop a bunch of pulse lasers and SRMs into the rear of the enemy.

Or the Flamberge 3, for when you need a heavy 'Mech jumping 7 to double tap an Ultra-20 into the rear of the enemy and then toss in some pulse lasers and SRMs.

[grimlock1]

Timber Wolf D  and Savage Wolf Prime are both near misses for this category, its just that half of the missile load is facing the wrong way.

What do we have in the lower weight classes? 
WLF-1 was an animal back in its day, and although the WLF-2 was good, it wasn't "broken."  The -2X on the other hand is a tough, nasty little beggar with big beatstick.  Keeping the range open and the speed up, discourages people from wasting ballistic ammo on bad shots, and reflective armor lets you take a lot of PPC and erllas hits.

Then there is the Wolfhound Allard.  Now that I'm thinking about it, the pure Clantech Allard isn't that much better than the -2X.  Okay nevermind. It is.

The Griffin was kinda broken back before the Clans.  Granted it's not a easy to use as later stuff, there's still some heat management to worry about, but just keep the range open and fire the PPC every other turn. Anything fast enough to catch you is in for a world of hurt.  Anything big enough swat you isn't quick enough to keep up. Basically this.

[Colt Ward]

Timberwolf D?  Must have faced Clan players worried about BV . . . that is where it shines, 2 headcappers is now cheese?

[grimlock1]

Timberwolf D?  Must have faced Clan players worried about BV . . . that is where it shines, 2 headcappers is now cheese?

The D would be cheese if it has quad streak 6 in the forward arc.  Two 15 hole diggers backed up by 24 location roles, but alas, half those SRMs are rear mounts.

[Colt Ward]

So is the Warhammer 8K also borderline cheese?  What about the Warhammer IIC 4?  the Warhammer IIC 11 which has 2 Heavy Large, ERML & a SSRM6 in each side torso?  The Nightstar 9FC with a ERPPC, 3 ML and 2 LB-10X, its a lot of clusters out further than the Clan SSRMs?

Just like use of cheese, this is getting out of hand as folks are pointing at things they do not like or got damaged by.

Typically cheese is Pulse (especially Clan) with a TC (Warhawk C or Black Python), or heat neutral (or nearly) with a load of only headcappers (Hellstar or Thunderhawk).

[Nastyogre]

Ah yes. The standard 3025 Davion line up. Seriously 8 of the 14 are Davion or FedCom refits. There is a reason for the reputation 😉

As I have played more I have feared those quad LPL or ERPPC rigs less and less. Yes they are very good at what they do. Yes they require little skill to do it. But like all Battletech long ranged weapons their damage to weight ratios are poor. In the case of LPLs they don't scale well with better pilots because they already start on the downward slope of the bell curve.
Speed and terrain seems to be the key. Mechs like Novas can get in and run their day with clockwork tactics. Last time I did some play testing I used a Hellstar as a benchmark and it rapidly became a patsy reliance on head hits for victory against a variety of TRO3145 Mechs.

To defend Davionista's. (Fedcomunista's?) anyway.

Some of this probably plays into the Federated Suns, (and later the Federated Commonwealth) Armored Cavalry. One of the few units/formations that realized the weakness of the Start League was low ammo and slow units.

You also have stupid units Like the RFL-4D with 2 PPC's and 2 LL. Or the OTL-D (I think it's the D) The Ostsol with 2 PPC's and 15 heat sinks. Sure they Zombie nice, but the quest to have Warhammers and Marauder replacements made Hanse Davion create dumb variants. (as though Hanse were real and all)

Fed Suns also field a ton of regular RFL's, Jagermechs and Ammo heavy designs. They do have some solid light and med energy based units.

Whammy-D and Mad-D are solid enough but the Whammy doesn't defend itself up close very well (Unlike the Whammy-R) and the Mad-D has no heavier armor and is vulnerable to side shots and kicks that more easily focus on a leg.


Most of the 3025-303 energy boats aren't too bad. The Hunchback-P seems a little over the top.

Ammo dumping problem solution? Don't allow it.

No commander would allow you to just jettison 2000 lbs of MG ammo or that extra SRM 6 ton off of a Battlemaster. The stuff is there for a reason. "But it's my game" Sure whatever, you can play the Battlemaster's PPC is really 2 of them because the Unseen model has two barrels on the gun (I thought this as a 14 year old in 1986) doesn't mean that it's reasonable.

It certainly helps survivability, but then that Mechwarrior has to worry "Oh man, what if I get swarmed by an infantry company" Campaign games might just want that 2nd ton of Ammo.

I'm not sure any munchkin machine's exist outside of Star League Royal and Clan era stuff. Perfectly heat neutral, flat or increasing damage curve, high speed monsters. That's munchkin. A Hunchback with 9 Med lasers? Well, shoot it with some LRMS and PPC's. Maybe some special variants Charger SB is a one off custom Variant isn't it? It's like calling Yen-lo-Wang munchy. It's now Atlas slow and isn't going to enjoy a rain of LRMS or PPC fire from units that are now fast enough to wear it down.

15 range max is nice, Until the Archer walks and ranges you at 11-14 and bops you with shots on 6-8 (maybe 9) and you shoot at best on an 8. Probably a 10 or 11. That's a winning echange for even a stock Archer. Ignore Archer-S and units with better heat curves.











TO defend Davionista's. Many of these are very