2 kills in an Elemental ToP

[Alan Grant]

I've never been entirely clear on this....

With Elementals, does scoring 2 kills in a Trial of Position earn the rank of Point Commander or Star Commander?

With mechwarriors point commander isn't really a rank with any responsibilities different than "warrior", but with Elementals it is, Point Commander is definitely of higher stature than being a warrior in a point.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I'd expect point commander.

[Foxx Ital]

Point commander  :)  Since a surprising amount of Khans seem to be elementals, I'm gonna jokingly say they do that because they need to keep some check on all those awesome ristar upstarts  ;)

[cold1]

Point commander  :)  Since a surprising amount of Khans seem to be elementals, I'm gonna jokingly say they do that because they need to keep some check on all those awesome ristar upstarts  ;)

I can only think of a handful.  Couple Bears and a couple Jaguars.  Some sakhans too I guess.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Several in the Horses; Malavai Fletcher, James Cobb, and Jake Kabrinski

[Alan Grant]

Elementals were, and really still are, kinda a novelty. Giant genetically engineered humans. I'm not surprised the writers have chosen over the years to make a few prominent personalities Elementals. Just the word itself brings up this image of a towering strong man or woman, rather than having to say , "Khan Joe is enormously tall and strong".

He's an elemental...fewer words required, mental image achieved.

The aero pilot phenotype, I find, hasn't been that popular with many BT fans, but Elementals are. Not to mention battle armor in general has been popular with BT fans.

Early on, in things like the Clan Wolf Sourcebook, elementals were treated almost like second-class. A personality profile on a Star Captain noted that it was unusual to find an Elemental Star Captain and in that book and the Jade Falcon Sourcebook, Elementals of high rank were extremely rare. I feel like the writers jumped on the Elemental fan train over time.

[cold1]

Several in the Horses; Malavai Fletcher, James Cobb, and Jake Kabrinski

Not surprising since the they are the combined arms clan and value person over machine.  Their stjgma towards mechs is greatly reduced.

Wait, is Hannibal Banacek an elemental???  I guess I assumed he wasnt because of his bloodname but the hulk smashing...

My personal perception of elementals is a bit different since I could probably pass for one albeit on the small end of the scale.

[Rncavenger]

I can only think of a handful.  Couple Bears and a couple Jaguars.  Some sakhans too I guess.

 Santin West in Nova Cats (from 3062 to 309X) , 3 khans in Hell Horses (one after another) , last khan of Steel viper etc.

[cold1]

Santin West in Nova Cats (from 3062 to 309X) , 3 khans in Hell Horses (one after another) , last khan of Steel viper etc.

I could have been clearer, I was thinking Grimani when mentioning sakhans.  I forgot he took over from Andrews.  I dont count the Nova Cats (please dont get offended anyone).

[Foxx Ital]

The current khan of the Stone lions is also a elemental. Constance cluff was a rather striking one as well. So more than you would think  :) and yes i do count sakhan's as well ^_^

[cold1]

The current khan of the Stone lions is also a elemental. Constance cluff was a rather striking one as well. So more than you would think  :) and yes i do count sakhan's as well ^_^

Delvillar is a mechwarrior, or at least tested out as one since in WoR he pilots a Thunder Stallion.

[Foxx Ital]

sweet kerensky hes big, my bad i mainly just saw the picture and was like "ayep"

[WONC]

I dont count the Nova Cats (please dont get offended anyone).

Its okay, we knew that the Adder/Viper/Society grape punch was strong stuff. That's why we left the party early and picked up some sake and geisha on our way home.  :P  ;)

[Ratwedge]

The Exiles also have a Khan that is an Elemental in the Dark Ages.

[KlavoHunter]

How even does an Elemental Trial of Position go?  They face off against 3 other Elementals in succession? 

[cold1]

How even does an Elemental Trial of Position go?  They face off against 3 other Elementals in succession?

I think the official answer is "clan specific".  In some clans they fight other elementals and it appears in some clans they fight against a variety of phenotypes although not sure how an elemental can fight an aerospace pilot in any actual combat thats fair.  Unaugmented the elemental wins, augmented the fighter has a major advantage.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I can't say about during the old days, but now that there's a proliferation of suit types, they could face a light, medium, and heavy suit in succession.  I mean, is seems like very few cadets would pass if they're facing experienced warriors in the exact same suit they're using.

[Foxx Ital]

There's a reason Elementals end up with more "replacement" parts the longer they survive their career  ;D

[Alan Grant]

Since at least 4 out of every 5 Elementals end up as just warriors (they can't all be point/Star commanders fresh out of the sibko) I'm guessing that first match is pretty even, at least technologically. An elemental facing another elemental in the same type of suit (whether that be standard elemental armor or something else). That's a tough one-on-one fight that could leave the cadet at least wounded or their suit damaged when they win, which makes defeating a fresh second opponent very difficult and a third supremely difficult.

Due to the sheer volume of availability I'd guess that Trial of Positions, at least for sibko cadets, is conducted with standard elemental armor. Even Clan Second Line, solahma, and marine units seem to have access to the standard elemental armor on a routine basis. Its probably the single most numerous piece of military equipment (among mechs, BA, ASFs) among the Clans.

The exceptions to this would obviously be any Clan that doesn't or can't manufacture that armor.

[Alan Grant]

Found one piece of evidence...Era Report: 3052 on Theresa Delvillar

"Of her life before Operation Revival little is known—she passed
her Trial of Position with two kills, earning the rank of Star Commander
(a rare feat for an Elemental, even in the Ghost Bears)"

[SteveRestless]

Since at least 4 out of every 5 Elementals end up as just warriors (they can't all be point/Star commanders fresh out of the sibko)

Thats of the elementals who make their ToP anyway. I imagine some number of them are just winding up as laborer caste.

[cold1]

Or dying.  I thought elementals had the lowest sibko survival rate of all phenotypes.  Not sure that is clearly stated anywhere as much as it seems to be the case based on multiple sources.

[rebs]

Or dying.  I thought elementals had the lowest sibko survival rate of all phenotypes.  Not sure that is clearly stated anywhere as much as it seems to be the case based on multiple sources.

And don't forget the fluff on saKhan/Khan/ilKhan/Khan Banacek (smash).  It does not say it in the main body, but in the rules section, it says specifically that he is an Elemental.  On top of what you have said, which agrees with his bio - he was the only survivor of his sibko.

A lot of elementals probably die in training, but I bet a lot of them survive to completely beef up the labor pool.  >:D  The reward of being a Star Commander after only two kills is well earned I imagine. 

That is good info, but it makes you wonder what exactly is deemed a fail, a pass, or a command role, aside from a second kill...

Death usually qualifies one for the first.   #P

[WONC]

So it begs the thought: if the average Clan Elemental training programs are that vicious, what are the Bears and Horses (and the Lions, I suppose?) doing to make other Clans view theirs as intense?!  :o

[Arkansas Warrior]

I bet there's a few test downs serving as helmsmen on naval vessels as well.  IIRC novels describe the helm's yoke as having an artificial resistance that builds as one turns farther, and that it takes a particularly strong helmsman to make a turn sharp enough to risk stressing the ship.  So who better to milk every last degree of movement out of the ship than one bred for strength?

[cold1]

Rebs, what page of WoR is that on?  I could swear Hannibal was an elemental but can not find it any where in the book where it is expressly stated. 

It may be a bit different with the Adders since commanders are expected to be quality military leaders not just the best warrior.  I can see the Adders ideas on picking commanders make it more likely that an elemental would rise through the ranks if he was a good strategic planner.  It's odd the Adders have an elemental khan since they are fluffed as one of the last clans to perfect the phenotype and as of FM:CC they are just getting elementals into the touman consistently.

[rebs]

page 224. 

It took a long time for me to track that down too.

Also, i thought so too about his rise to power.   I guess Stanislav N'Buta was a pretty keen judge of his warriors' capabilities.  He picked Hannibal the way he himself was picked by the preceding N'Buta, the name escapes me...   

[Meow Liao]

You have to be able to win the trial of possession in some nonlethal form or the clan can't grow its elemental force.  One experienced warrior death for each passing cadet does not lead to a growing army, or an experienced army.

Meow Liao

[rebs]

You have to be able to win the trial of possession in some nonlethal form or the clan can't grow its elemental force.  One experienced warrior death for each passing cadet does not lead to a growing army, or an experienced army.

Meow Liao

Undeniable wisdom. 

Are Elemental ToP's necessarily lethal, then? 

I could see wrestling matches determine the outcome.  Or some other martial form, perhaps.

[wellspring]

You have to be able to win the trial of possession in some nonlethal form or the clan can't grow its elemental force.  One experienced warrior death for each passing cadet does not lead to a growing army, or an experienced army.

I need to deny that. Re-read the section in Strat Ops on Mostly Dead vs Truly Dead (p176). Even assuming fully-powered up weapons, a typical mission kill leaves the trooper alive but wounded 83% of the time (58% in IS armor). So say I make Star Captain: 3 kills. Very rare but it happens. There's a better than 50-50 chance that no one dies at all. The odds that all three are truly dead are negligible.

Here's my question. How do you get promoted in the clan system? In some sources, like the Field Manuals, they claim or at least strongly imply that once you're a warrior, you advance by staging Trials of Possession for higher ranks. In Warriors of Kerensky, they claim you have regular challenge-appropriate Trials of Position, with the results determining if you test up (to a higher rank) or down (to a lower rank). Which is it?