Author Topic: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP  (Read 6122 times)

cold1

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #30 on: 30 December 2012, 10:21:39 »
You can declare a trial of possession for rank.  Also grand melees and tournament style trials can be held to replace killed commanders.  Some clans stop this practice at the Galaxy level in order to let khans promote the most adept commanders (I believe the Wolves do this).

When you think of it that way it makes sense that an elemental would be well regarded if they make it to Star Colonel.  They would have to win trials against mech warriors either through combat or through cunning and staging a trial in another arena (chess, horseshoes whatever).  Either way that guy is a combination of smart and good warrior.

Thanks for the page reference as well Rebs.


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Alan Grant

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #31 on: 30 December 2012, 11:44:00 »
In at least some cases you get nominated by someone higher up. So you are a Star Commander and someone decides you should be Star Captain (of a specific Trinary or Supernova). Then you have to fight a one-on-one Trial and defeat that Star Captain to gain his position.

This is well documented in the novel where Ghost Bear Jake Kabrinski is nominated by the Khan to the rank of Star Captain and intended to take over a Supernova in a front-line unit. He has to defeat the unit's current commander, an old associate of his in single combat. They fight in elemental armor, live weaponry. The opponent was defeated but survived and was featured later in the novel, having suffered a demotion to a second-line unit I think.

I don't own that book anymore, this is all from memory, so I might be slightly off on the specifics.

The whole concept of live-fire ToPs kinda requires you to suspend disbelief. In the Clans, if you try to do the math on how many warriors they lose vs what's gained, how many machines are destroyed in any given Trial of Bloodright Grand Melee, it'll make your head spin. You just have to roll with it.

It is important to note that in a ToP you don't have to kill the opposition. If he's wounded enough to be neutralized as a threat ("where's my arm!?!?"), knocked unconscious, he's out and you've won. Clan medical technologies plus the HarJel systems in their suits, are very good at keeping people alive until medical aid can be rendered.

I would also assume that initial ToPs involving sibko cadets, most frequently use solahma as the opposition (plus any other Clan warrior volunteer who wouldn't mind dying today for any reason). In the eyes of the Clan, these folks are already cannon fodder and kinda suicidal.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2012, 11:52:10 by Alan Grant »

rebs

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #32 on: 30 December 2012, 12:18:18 »
Right!   The way the Clan trial system was laid out in Legend of the Jade Phoenix, one is led to believe that cadets are pretty much always facing the best warriors of the preceding generation...    if that were true, after two hundred years, no Clanner should ever realistically fail a Piloting or Gunnery roll.   

I figured privately that solahma and second line warriors were much more likely to be the opponents of new sibkos.

As for the page reference for Hannibal Banacek, no problem!  That was a hard little nugget of info to nail down.   

 
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wellspring

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #33 on: 30 December 2012, 12:50:43 »
Ahh, now that I re-read Warriors of Kerensky (p45-46), it explains things more clearly. I don't know how I missed the last paragraph in the section.

Quote from: Warriors of Kerensky, p45
Every warrior undergoes at least one Trial of Position when he passes from cadet to full-fledged warrior, traditionally on or around the cadet's twentieth birthday. Several Clans graduate warriros at eighteen, however, and extreme circumstances may prompt Trials of Position even earlier.

That's pretty crystal clear, although we still don't know which clans graduate people at earlier ages. The paragraph goes on to clarify which clans allow a re-test and what happens if you fail.

Quote from: Warriors of Kerensky, p45-46
Warriors are required to retest frequently throughout their careers (...) However, role and assignment offer a degree of flexibillity, and combat performance is frequently accepted in lieu of a formal Trial. (...) Those who perform well "test up" and are promoted. Those who do not either retain their current status or "test down" and are relegated to second-line units and non-combat posts or demoted to a lower caste.

These annual retrials, which unlike the first, need not involve 'Mechs or battle armor, or often more akin to Trials of Possession, with senior officers fending off challenges by their juniors and peers competing for limited promotion slots.

There's a lot more, including that you need the Clan Council or Khan to approve these challenges.

This is very vague, but I think that's because different clans do things differently. In many clans, you can challenge your way up the ladder virtually unhindered. The top officers aren't necessarily the best strategists or administrators, but they are the best combatants. In other clans, like I'd imagine the Star Adders, Diamond Sharks, and Wolves, the Khan and Clan Council restrict access to trials to protect valuable senior officers, and can use the approve/disapprove rule to keep freebirths, dezgra warriors, and politically unpopular leaders out of top positions even if they rock in the cockpit.

The history of the Clans is filled with examples of great warriors who run their clan into the ground because nobody can beat them in a challenge to replace them. My earlier speculations notwithstanding, Khan Ian Hawker of the Diamond Sharks is one obvious example-- after a while the Sharks were desperate to replace him but couldn't due to his skill as a MechWarrior. Similarly, the crusaders Diamond Sharks hammered saKhan Angus Labov to unseat him from Gamma Galaxy... and this illustrates another aspect of the process: the losers were getting relegated to garrison units as punishment for losing. He ultimately stopped accepting challenges.

So I think it's probably similar across the clans in its broad outlines but how it happens varies from clan to clan and situation to situation.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #34 on: 30 December 2012, 13:06:23 »
In the Jake Kabrinski novel, he fights the Elemental Star Captain one on one, with the winner getting the Star Captain's rank and command, the loser taking the Star Commander post Jake was at.  At least, that's how I remember it.
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wellspring

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #35 on: 30 December 2012, 13:40:38 »
In the Jake Kabrinski novel, he fights the Elemental Star Captain one on one, with the winner getting the Star Captain's rank and command, the loser taking the Star Commander post Jake was at.  At least, that's how I remember it.

That sounds consistent with the material I quoted above. Was there any mention of needing approval from senior command? That could give us a clue about how the GBs earn the right to make such a challenge.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #36 on: 30 December 2012, 14:02:53 »
I'm pretty sure it wasn't his idea.  Somebody above both of them said "Hey, you're going to challenge this guy for this spot."  I haven't read the novel in years though.  Let me do some digging.


Alright, it wasn't that hard to find.  In the first chapter, Jake kills an Atlas solo.  In the second, he wakes up from a week in a coma (due to injuries sustained in the battle) to find his old sibko trainer Carl, now a frontline Star Captain, who brings news that his exploits caught the attention of Khan Jorgensson, who recommended  Jake for Carl's post, and they are to fight it out in two days.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2012, 14:08:25 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Hellraiser

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #37 on: 30 December 2012, 14:24:25 »
With Elementals, does scoring 2 kills in a Trial of Position earn the rank of Point Commander or Star Commander?
Star Commander.

Quote
With mechwarriors point commander isn't really a rank with any responsibilities different than "warrior", but with Elementals it is, Point Commander is definitely of higher stature than being a warrior in a point.
1 Kill = Warrior Status
2 Kills = Star Commander
3 Kills = Star Captain

Nothing changes w/ Elementals & ASPs.

In all likely hood the Point Commander is a "senior" warrior in the Point but its not a position you "earn" with a ToP.  Its probably one your assigned to by those above you, or something you can challenge for later.

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wellspring

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #38 on: 30 December 2012, 15:46:53 »
In all likely hood the Point Commander is a "senior" warrior in the Point but its not a position you "earn" with a ToP.  Its probably one your assigned to by those above you, or something you can challenge for later.

Much like the distinction between a Star Commander and a Nova Commander. In most clans these are theoretically equivalent positions (the Hell's Horses being an exception). For most clans the Nova position -- requiring more experience, combined arms expertise, and carrying more authority -- is considered a senior posting within the rank.

Foxx Ital

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Re: 2 kills in an Elemental ToP
« Reply #39 on: 30 December 2012, 16:04:06 »
I'm pretty sure it wasn't his idea.  Somebody above both of them said "Hey, you're going to challenge this guy for this spot."  I haven't read the novel in years though.  Let me do some digging.


Alright, it wasn't that hard to find.  In the first chapter, Jake kills an Atlas solo.  In the second, he wakes up from a week in a coma (due to injuries sustained in the battle) to find his old sibko trainer Carl, now a frontline Star Captain, who brings news that his exploits caught the attention of Khan Jorgensson, who recommended  Jake for Carl's post, and they are to fight it out in two days.

It was noted that Khan Jorgennson took notice of Jakes killing a Atlas in single combat, thus he recommended him for the trial. Also at that time -alot- of similar trials were taking place as the clan started trying to replace older warriors with fresh claws so to speak.

 Whats especially weird, is it states in the book that hes a point commander for getting 2 kills.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2012, 16:05:44 by Foxx Ital »
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