“Save” the Jags

[Sjhernan3060]

He gathered up whatever he could . . . the Heart were dregs of the dregs, but I thought he had another cluster under his direct command- so 2 clusters dropped I thought but its been a while since I read those books . . . like over 15 years?

I thought the jaguars heart would not be considered bottom of the barrel but instead warriors who had not yet been demoted to solahma

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

According to Sarna (so take with a grain of salt), the Jaguar's Heart was made up of mostly ex-warriors: trainers, designers, and liaison officers.

[Colt Ward]

Hawker probably was taking his whole re-built Alpha Galaxy as it was his personal command and frontline galaxies are designed to move.  Real question is how well was it equipped?  Since the saKhan was in charge of re-building and delegated a lot of the material replacement duties to Labov . . . its questionable if it was more combat capable than Sennet's Beta Galaxy, though I would expect more Crusaders in the ranks than any other Shark formation.  Osis shared some information about what had happened, but indications were he was still hiding some of the information since he still was acting as Jaguar Khan (part of Vlad's charges) so Hawker had a clue but not the full picture.  Besides, I think Serpent dealt with the HPG pretty quick.  Hawker could move Alpha, filled with Crusaders in command positions and thus least likely to challenge, while moving any other galaxy or even cluster opened his actions up to Clan Council consideration or even challenge by another bloodnamed officer.  Getting involved against the IS on Huntress would have presented the Wardens & Clan Council of the Sharks a fait accompli that would likely have compelled them to get involved until Hawker was killed.

After Alpha, Beta and the Spina galaxies would have been the 'easiest' to move into place . . . and would have finished everything the IS had to throw with ground forces & warships.

The Heart was made up of what Osis could strip- and it was that, he was breaking the Clan's operating ability by taking warriors from slots- to build any sort of formation with whatever weapons he could get his hands on.  The name was for morale and to describe their efforts.

Nothing AFAIK from the legacy challenge would sway Vlad into helping the Jaguars on Huntress.  Its not going to kick off a call of 'Crusaders UNITE!' among the Clans, Vlad's speech in the Grand Council pretty well summed it up.  It would not be the end of the Clans, merely the end of a Clan proving its failure while the others learned, absorbed and moved on.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hawker probably was taking his whole re-built Alpha Galaxy as it was his personal command and frontline galaxies are designed to move.  Real question is how well was it equipped?  Since the saKhan was in charge of re-building and delegated a lot of the material replacement duties to Labov . . . its questionable if it was more combat capable than Sennet's Beta Galaxy, though I would expect more Crusaders in the ranks than any other Shark formation.  Osis shared some information about what had happened, but indications were he was still hiding some of the information since he still was acting as Jaguar Khan (part of Vlad's charges) so Hawker had a clue but not the full picture.  Besides, I think Serpent dealt with the HPG pretty quick.  Hawker could move Alpha, filled with Crusaders in command positions and thus least likely to challenge, while moving any other galaxy or even cluster opened his actions up to Clan Council consideration or even challenge by another bloodnamed officer.  Getting involved against the IS on Huntress would have presented the Wardens & Clan Council of the Sharks a fait accompli that would likely have compelled them to get involved until Hawker was killed.

After Alpha, Beta and the Spina galaxies would have been the 'easiest' to move into place . . . and would have finished everything the IS had to throw with ground forces & warships.

The Heart was made up of what Osis could strip- and it was that, he was breaking the Clan's operating ability by taking warriors from slots- to build any sort of formation with whatever weapons he could get his hands on.  The name was for morale and to describe their efforts.

Nothing AFAIK from the legacy challenge would sway Vlad into helping the Jaguars on Huntress.  Its not going to kick off a call of 'Crusaders UNITE!' among the Clans, Vlad's speech in the Grand Council pretty well summed it up.  It would not be the end of the Clans, merely the end of a Clan proving its failure while the others learned, absorbed and moved on.

What a great summary thank you!

What naval assests especially warships would have been handy to escort the sharks? The serpent war fleet was pretty banged up by then and if I recall was hesitant to fight osiss black lion command ship

[Colt Ward]

Whatever was attached to Alpha, FMWC should list it.

[Sjhernan3060]

After reading forever faithful ( a good read!) it was interest to me that the jag warriors and civilians were shocked and hurt that no relief Force cane to their aid.

While this serves the plot of the book I am curious about this. Did the average clanner really have some notion of pan clan unity? Or at least the idea of mutual defense?

[Sjhernan3060]

After reading forever faithful ( a good read!) it was interest to me that the jag warriors and civilians were shocked and hurt that no relief Force cane to their aid.

While this serves the plot of the book I am curious about this. Did the average clanner really have some notion of pan clan unity? Or at least the idea of mutual defense?

Edit: was the average jag deluded about the prestige and respect their leadership had amongst their the wider clans?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Edit: was the average jag deluded about the prestige and respect their leadership had amongst their the wider clans?

Do you mean "did the average Jag think the galaxy revolved around their Clan?"

Yes.

[Sjhernan3060]

Do you mean "did the average Jag think the galaxy revolved around their Clan?"

Yes.

Sounds about right

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Did the average clanner really have some notion of pan clan unity?

Or at least the idea of mutual defense?

  No. The Clans were founded as eternally competing factions, to the point of annihilating the unworthy factions.

  The founders had no expectation of the Clans ever being threatened by any external force. They believed that the IS would be nuked into the Stone Age without the Star League, which made the existence of the Houses all the more shocking, as it countered their narrative. Even during the invasion, the factions competed with each other and only gave nominal cooperation, as with the Jags and Nova Cats.
  Prior to the invasion, the Clans never had a long range plan other than survival. 

[Sjhernan3060]

Because Ian Hawker was always sucking up to the Jags & Falcons, his Crusader fanboi idols.  Now . . . interesting question is, how did Vlad know Ian was making the effort and how did he know the navigation course so he could meet him?

Considering how elite of a warrior he was but how he was disliked by many of the warden minded officers I assume vlad got some detailed files via them!

[Sjhernan3060]

Considering how elite of a warrior he was but how he was disliked by many of the warden minded officers I assume vlad got some detailed files via them!

Edit: via a strategic chatterweb leak from wardens inside the shark high command

[Sjhernan3060]

He gathered up whatever he could . . . the Heart were dregs of the dregs, but I thought he had another cluster under his direct command- so 2 clusters dropped I thought but its been a while since I read those books . . . like over 15 years?

I always really liked the idea of the Jaguars heart but I thought it was staffed by vets who had NOT yet been deemed solahma but weren’t in an active unit?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

No such thing in the Clans.

[Sjhernan3060]

No such thing in the Clans.

How so? They were noted as trainers, test pilots etc are those automatically solahma?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Pretty much. Once you've been transferred from active fighting, you're solahma.

[Sjhernan3060]

While I don’t recall it ever being stated I got the feeling the jags Brian caches had been tapped out long before their fall. Does that seem right?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Hard to say with any certainty, though the presence of Inner Sphere isorla in active service among the Huntress garrison Galaxies wouldn't really indicate they had bunkers full of IICs and SLDF designs to fall back on.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Everything about the 3050s was saying that the Jags' weak logistics and manufacturing ability was completely unable to keep up with the need for replacement mechs after Tukkyuid and the constant skirmishes after.  Add to that, Tau Galaxy was created using resources that were cannibalized from other units and then destroyed before it even had a chance to be deployed?  Yeah, if the Jags had any Brain Caches at all they'd have opened them.

[CJC070]

Everything about the 3050s was saying that the Jags' weak logistics and manufacturing ability was completely unable to keep up with the need for replacement mechs after Tukkyuid and the constant skirmishes after.  Add to that, Tau Galaxy was created using resources that were cannibalized from other units and then destroyed before it even had a chance to be deployed?  Yeah, if the Jags had any Brain Caches at all they'd have opened them.

Actually it might depend on where they were stored, if they were in another Clans territory the Smoke Jaguars might not have access to it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That would mean that they're no longer Jaguar caches.

[Sjhernan3060]

Everything about the 3050s was saying that the Jags' weak logistics and manufacturing ability was completely unable to keep up with the need for replacement mechs after Tukkyuid and the constant skirmishes after.  Add to that, Tau Galaxy was created using resources that were cannibalized from other units and then destroyed before it even had a chance to be deployed?  Yeah, if the Jags had any Brain Caches at all they'd have opened them.

Right! I remember now, tau galaxy had been stated as having enough spare parts etc “ to operate indefinitely” so losing those store houses was another major blow. In addition if the jags had gone after easier prey of old Brian caches that in of itself would have signal weakness right?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Tau was created by splitting the Clan's rebuilding efforts, so instead of putting the majority of their effort into getting Alpha Galaxy rebuilt, you got a smaller Alpha and you got Tau. Tau was, IIRC, filled exclusively with new Warriors fresh from the Sibkos and new OmniMechs from the Homeworlds.

In addition if the jags had gone after easier prey of old Brian caches that in of itself would have signal weakness right?

Not particularly, no. I'm sure small territorial land-grab Trials would be right up a second-line unit's alley. It's also not as though the other Clans were ignorant of the fact the Jaguars bled white after Luthien and Tukayyid, and would thus need hardware. Probably a great opportunity for the other Clans to up their bids and really make the Jaguars work/pay if they wanted factory output, Brian Caches, resources, etc.

[Hellraiser]

Pretty much. Once you've been transferred from active fighting, you're solahma.

That's not quite right.

A solahma unit is generally an infantry unit made up of old or dying Clan warriors. Though often used as garrison forces, these units prefer to be used as shock troops. In this way, the aging warriors can serve their Clan to the bitter end, dying in combat - a death considered far more appropriate and honorable than dying in bed.[1][2]

Solahma is basically, sent to your death at the first opportunity troops. 

2nd Line/Garrison Clusters, Trainer duty, etc etc is still a step up from..............
Your now Grunt Infantry who charges into battle looking to take a bullet as you kill the enemy in a glorious death.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Second Line and Garrison Clusters are still part of the touman, and there's even a chance (not much of one, but it's still there) that you can earn enough prestige to be transferred back to a front line position.  Getting assigned to a training position means that you're effectively no longer a warrior, your career is over.

[rebs]

It wasn't the end of Joanna's career, though.  She felt she was being punished for some transgression.

[Hellraiser]

I hear what your saying, but Joanna disagrees.  ;)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It wasn't the end of Joanna's career, though.  She felt she was being punished for some transgression.

You talking about in I Am Jade Falcon, when she got back to the front thanks to agreeing to investigate something for the Khan in order to get transferred back to the Falcon Guard, or the transfer in Falcon Rising, which was the end of her career?

[Sjhernan3060]

Second Line and Garrison Clusters are still part of the touman, and there's even a chance (not much of one, but it's still there) that you can earn enough prestige to be transferred back to a front line position.  Getting assigned to a training position means that you're effectively no longer a warrior, your career is over.

Is solahma noted as a status on your codex?


Also and if the jags had after say 3052 had wanted to allow freebirths or test downs to become warriors would that decision rest solely with the khan? Or would that have to be approved by the jag council of bloodnamed?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Depends on the relative strength of each, but I think Osis could have pushed something like that through if he'd wanted to.  The issue is that he and the council were both too rabidly conservative to even consider something like that.