Enlighten me for the rate of true/freeborn in Clans touman

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I am still confusing even after check some stuffs. So, please correct me if I was wrong. And where I can found the data about this?

Apart the chance to second test for the washouts(and Steel Viper, who don't allow freeborn warriors at all, although they are history now) or some specific phenotypes in the individual Clans;

-The vast majority of combat personnel in Clans touman are trueborn.
-Almost all Mechwarriors, Elemental warriors and Aerospace Fighter pilots are trueborn, although it is not so hard to find a freeborn warrior of either types in the second-line clusters either.
-In contrast, ALL Combat Vehicle crews and Conventional Aircraft pilots are freeborn, unless some Clans with the second chance for the trueborn washouts.
-Most Conventional Infantry are gathered from solahma, although not all CI are solahma.
-ALL Protomech pilots are trueborn, with Aerospace Fighter phenotype(or sub-phenotype originated from it for some Clans).

Is it correct?

[Deadborder]

First of all, there's no hard numbers on ratios of Trueborn to Freeborn warriors at all.

The amount of Freeborn warriors in a clan would vary wildly. For example, the Coyotes didn't allow them in frontline units, and only barely tolerated them at all (one of the factors that lead to their decline), resulting in a majority Trueborn force. Conversely, the Hells Horses would commonly have Freeborn warriors in frontline vehicle crews, even if said crew had a Trueborn commander.

For most Clans, freeborns in frontline Clusters are unusual but not entirely unheard of. Elson Novacat, for example, was a Freeborn Elemental in a frontline Cluster (possibly the Nova Cat Alpha Galaxy). The Fire Mandrills often had Freeborn warriors in frontline units to make up numbers.

In reality, the only Clan we can make a definitive statement on the ratio of trueborns to freeborns is the Vipers, for reasons outlined above

[AlphaMirage]

Protomech pilots also could be freeborn ASF phenos given another chance for death or glory after failing to test in. 

Like mentioned above there are no hard numbers.  It is probable that the homeworks clans in their depleted state have doubled down on trues. The Sphere clans likely have more mixed toumans due to rule of large numbers of the populations in their OZs. 

Remember that the thing that makes Trues such good Warriors is their training and fanatic Death or Glory culture more than their genes.  Trueborn Warriors don't care about the future, they just want genetic immortality and a mention in the rememberance both of which are frequently awarded posthumously

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Thanks. It is good to check there is no hard number, else I were keep search through the void without an answer.

So some exceptional freeborns are allowed to join the front-line clusters, although the golden rule of 'it depends on the individual Clans' still apply.

Anyway, although the percentage may differ from each Clans, is it true that the majority of combat personnel is trueborn, right? With your answer, some Inner Sphere Clans may have more freeborns so it may surpass the rate of trueborns, though there is no hard rules.

[AlphaMirage]

I think there would still be majority trueborn combat unit just due to cultural reasons.  However the Sphere Clans had to incorporate more vehicles due to production bottlenecks I to their toumans so vehicle crew and infantry are typically freeborn and could outnumber True Warriors man to man though perhaps not operationally.  For example a heavy tank and typically staffed with Freeborn, it has 4+ crew.  A point is 8+Free whereas its 1 True for a Mech Point or 5 for an Elemental Point

[Maelwys]

-In contrast, ALL Combat Vehicle crews and Conventional Aircraft pilots are freeborn, unless some Clans with the second chance for the trueborn washouts.

This one is pretty iffy. Clans that push their aging Trueborns into second like and then Solahma clusters are going to have Trueborns in the those roles, it just depends on what's available.

[/quote]
-Most Conventional Infantry are gathered from solahma, although not all CI are solahma.
[/quote]

Hard to say on this, though remember, Solahma is the End of life formation basically, so you're not taking Solahma and transferring them out.

[Fallen_Raven]

Anyway, although the percentage may differ from each Clans, is it true that the majority of combat personnel is trueborn, right?

Depends on what you mean by combat personnel. Some Inner Sphere Clans are having to set up "paramilitary" forces to deal with the problems of the occupation, and these both do and don't count as Warriors. But the traditional clusters bid in Trials and taking part in the honorable duties are still primarily Trueborn. The Clan eugenics program hasn't been abandoned just because its a ridiculous notion that only worked out because a tiny population of fanatics held total military supremacy over the populace while having no external threats.

[Colt Ward]

Depending on the Clan . . .

IMO, for the liberal Clans you might say 25%-10% of frontline clusters are made up of freebirths.  We get notice when officers are freebirth in the FM series usually.  For more traditional?  Well . . . Diana & Horse were the only freebirth warriors in the Falcon Guards IIRC.  So traditional it might be something like 5% to nearly nothing.  Vipers and Jags of course have none in frontline.

Secondline formations for the liberal Clans might be 40% . . . garrison clusters it could be as high was 70%, look at some of the information on the Wolves Invasion era Epsilon clusters.  Traditional will of course have less.

To me the Clans most likely to have the highest number (and remember the Wolves were able to generate over 5 regiments of mechwarriors, supporting armor, and JS/DS crew out of mostly freebirths) would be the Wolves, Horses, Sharks (before Ian), and perhaps the Fire Mandrills (in a effort to test new genes for the paternal lines they needed to avoid inbreeding).  After that I think Scorpions, Adders, maybe Bears would be the next big users.

While we have some frontline freebirth Star Colonels between 3050-3067, afaik we have no freebirth Galaxy Commanders.

Btw, if you are a freebirth?  Your point is more likely to be bid away than a trueborn . . . unless the commander is wanting to insult his opposition.

[Jellico]

Gears need grease to move. Otherwise they seize up.

Trueborn numbers are estimated 18 years in advance. It has to take into account a 90% drop out rate. Plus unexpected accidents, wars, etc.

Freebirths who pass their ToPs fill in the gaps.

So the best indicator for the presence of freebirth warriors is a recent history of unexpected events and a general willingness to use freebirth warriors.

[massey]

I think the goal of all the Clans would be to have as close to 100% trueborn as you can get, at least in front line and second line clusters.  Garrison duty you might not care about as much.

The nice thing about trueborn is that their expected careers are probably fairly short, so you've always got a new supply of warriors coming in.  And you can increase or decrease the difficulty of tests and the lethality of certain rituals if you've got too many or not enough warriors.  During a time period when you've got lots of extra soldiers, you can afford to have Bloodname trials where perfectly good warriors are fighting to the death and blowing up Assault class Omnimechs.  When you're recovering from losses on Tukayyid, you can delay Bloodname trials for a few years, or maybe require simulated munitions.  Your Trials of Position can also get toned down a bit.  Maybe you make the opfor mechs take crappy configurations, or even use modified Inner Sphere designs to increase that passage rate.  Likewise you can make guys stay on longer than normal.  A 40 year old is considered an "old man" who would normally be taken off the front line, but you could keep them there longer if you have to.  In times of (relative) peace, you can crank up the turnover rate since you've got too many warriors relative to your losses.

You've probably also got a significant number of trueborn spawn out there.  What happens to all the Elemental washouts?  They probably bang a bunch of freeborn chicks since they're huge, muscular guys.  There's probably a significant number of Clan "freeborn" citizens who have 50% trueborn DNA and have quick reflexes and big muscles.  You could probably funnel those people into your conventional infantry and vehicle crews without too much fuss -- as long as they aren't piloting mechs I doubt too many people are gonna care.

[Colt Ward]

Much more than 50% considering it had been mixing true & free genes for over 150? years before the Invasion.  Freebirths are what you fill the gap with if you have good or bad years of production from the sibkos- its the wars that caused the problems for toumans.

For example, the Invasion in general and Luthien & Tukayyid in general wiped out not only the Jags number of frontline war machines but also gutted their seasoned warriors which left them trying to rebuild with what could be graduated from the sibkos in the following year.  They ended up with a cultural schism which Trent personified between experienced warriors and the new blood coming in.  The Wolves had the same sort of problem which created the Supremacists even though they did not take the same losses (which was sort of the problem).

The Jade Falcons were gutted from the Refusal War and should have had a huge hole in their touman from wiped out secondline, garrison and even frontline clusters.  Secondline cluster host many future frontline warriors, its sort of a farm system like in sports.  Sensitivity to losses is why Marthe agreed to hegira from Coventry- b/c her margin was that slim.  The second time she held her training exercise she even included new freebirth clusters- likely started in training when she was on Coventry or immediately afterwards as a 'lesson' from her experience.

The Clans that participated in the Jihad also had the same problems, which would be part of why they agreed to some of Stone's proposals.  Say things finally settled down in the Jihad and a Clan could hold bloodname trials . . . well, you had 3 of the 25 holders of the Smith Bloodname die in glorious battle.  Which means you now take the 96 best warriors of the Smith bloodname to compete, including 3 grand melee winners.  You will not have the same quality of entries . . . especially with the losses you would have taken from combat among your frontline and secondline clusters.  Now consider doing this every year or two of the Jihad, is it any wonder they agreed to cut back on their bloodname counts to keep the quality up?

[massey]

Yeah, I completely agree.  However, these are fairly short term problems.  The Clans have a bias against older warriors.  Let's say the average Clan warrior has a career of 5-10 years.  Think of them like an NFL player.  Every once in a while you'll have a Tom Brady or Brett Favre who sticks around forever, but for every one of them you'll have five rookies who blow out their knees in their first season and never make it back.

After the 15 years of the Truce of Tukayyid, there should basically be zero affect on the Clans' ability to resume the Invasion.  Almost all of their warriors should have been replaced anyway by that point.  There's just naturally so much turnover that they'd have to have a huge number of new warriors coming in every year just to keep up.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I completely agree.  However, these are fairly short term problems.  The Clans have a bias against older warriors.  Let's say the average Clan warrior has a career of 5-10 years.  Think of them like an NFL player.  Every once in a while you'll have a Tom Brady or Brett Favre who sticks around forever, but for every one of them you'll have five rookies who blow out their knees in their first season and never make it back.

After the 15 years of the Truce of Tukayyid, there should basically be zero affect on the Clans' ability to resume the Invasion.  Almost all of their warriors should have been replaced anyway by that point.  There's just naturally so much turnover that they'd have to have a huge number of new warriors coming in every year just to keep up.

I agree with the first section- that is a great analogy.  The problem is if your pipeline is designed to maintain the status quo, its hard to recover if the pipeline maintains the normal flow- IE.

Original Touman at 95-100% of paper strength, regular Trials and Bloodname combat depletes 10-15% of strength annually and the sibkos present 12-14% of the Original strength annual.

Jaguar Touman strength before Luthien is 95% (internal combats are down & external Trials are blocked) . . . touman takes 20% losses on Luthien (prob more to be clear) disregarding others during previous Invasion waves.  Makes post-Luthien touman strength 75% of what the paper list says . . . replacements from sibkos join the touman, good year, with 14%.  So 79% of strength entering the next Invasion wave . . . and then we have Tukayyid.  Jaguar Alpha Galaxy lost unit cohesion (lots of casualties) and Beta took quite a few but kept a command chain.  Now say the losses are the same as Luthien, 20% . . . 79% of paper strength becomes 59% . . . and the average sibko replacement rate, 13%, only gets you back up to 72% after Tukayyid.  Remember, NONE of those calculations include other losses even in successful Trials, Bloodname competitions, training deaths, or internal Trials.

A third of the touman is gone in the space of two years, and even if you doubled what was in the start of the pipeline after the initial Invasion waves those replacements are still at least 13 years away after Tukayyid.  And remember, the Jags do not use freebirths!  Additionally, even if you eased up on the last few years of sibko production most of the winnowing of the graduating sibkos has already happened, it will just generate a handful more warriors than you were getting previously.  Plus the Jaguars were being pushed by the Sharks, Cats and Drac raiding . . .

Meanwhile, if the IS takes losses they start a recruitment drive and get a new troop in 3 to 4 months rather than 18 years lead time.  Its the warrior vs the soldier problem.

[massey]

Battlemech training still takes a long time.  I don't think you can get a new recruit, cut his hair, send him through boot camp, and have him in a mech in a few months.

If we assume an average Clan mechwarrior career of 10 years, then the Jags should be able to replace their Touman at a rate of 10% a year.  That's presuming that they can't significantly increase that by easing their testing standards a bit.  And honestly, the thing that never made much sense to me was the sheer number of Elementals that the Clans would have to breed.  They are probably a lot more numerous than Mechwarriors, and they probably have a much shorter active lifespan.  Could you not build an enlarged cockpit and teach those Zangief looking bastards to pilot a mech instead, at least as a stopgap measure?

As far as refusing freebirths, a Clan that suffered severe losses, and then refused to draw from a large pool of available warriors just seems like they're willfully dooming themselves to me.  But even then, there are things they could do to get their numbers up.  Personally I think the Jags suffered from some author-induced stupidity.  The decision was made to wipe out the Smoke Jaguars, and so that Clan had to make dumb mistake after dumb mistake, taking huge losses and not bringing their forces back up to full strength.  After Tukayyid, I'd have suspended Trials of Position and brought every candidate who lived through a sibko into the Inner Sphere.  You can at least stick them in garrison clusters and say they're a "warrior in training" until they make their first kill.  Even if you had to give them captured Inner Sphere machines, it would help.

[Colt Ward]

10?  Try 5 years or less- the mentioned 'generation' from source material.  The best example we get of training rates is Aiden's sibko . . . and by the time they are in their final years there are less than 10- I want to say less than 5- cadets still in the program.  When they test, its only him & Marthe- or was there another pair?  A single (or three?) warrior graduated from a original decanting sibko of 100.

I used percentages to demonstrate losses and replacements for the simple reason, its not about the absolute numbers but the flow.  The pipeline pre-Invasion and before disasters like the Jihad would be to simply maintain the status quo number of warriors give or take a few.  The Clans before the Invasion, and even since, do not fight many multi-galaxy battles.  The whole point of the bidding system is to decrease the amount and numbers while protecting the infrastructure for damage- if you can win with a cluster, why can't you win with a trinary if the opposition scales back the same way?  If you want to expand your forces, you logically start planning that 5-8 years before if you want to relax the standards (look at the Vipers, there is peer pressure against that solution) or you start 19 years before you want to expand . . . which is usually longer than a single Khan's term.  Even with their higher washout rate, the Vipers still funnel the final failures into supporting arms.

The Refusal War was devastating for the Falcons, not only in the equipment lost but in the man power.  Read the summaries, a lot of the Falcon units were gutted taking for IIRC something like 70% material losses and over 60% personnel casualties.  Some notes had all the Aero or Elementals wiped out from the cluster and they lost enough clusters in that Trial to form even 6 or so of the larger Falcon galaxies.  The future Warden Wolves and Kell Hounds alone wiped out two galaxies (13? clusters).  Ulric & Natasha took down 2-3 clusters on each of the worlds they hit before Wotan which gives you something like 10+ clusters conservatively and more likely 14 or 15 total.  The ONLY thing that saved the Falcons post-Refusal were the hidden sibkos, and Marthe still graduated a lot of them early to fill slots.

The Clan sibko system is engineered to maintain a certain force level.  I doubt we will ever see a product that describes why, but some sort of even must have occurred to freeze them into their pre-Invasion strengths otherwise they could have built huge armies.  The ONLY source we have for changes in a touman's paper strength would be the Coyotes who declined though no reason was ever solidly established for such a drop in strength.

As far as freebirths . . . yeah, the Jags did not use them.  They were also quite arrogant and while I agree with the fiat argument is valid its also irrelevant since the whole BTU is built on fiat.  Other Clans refuse freebirths AND have stricter programs but still managed to recover from their Tukayyid losses (Vipers!) though you could say their being thrown out of the IS indicates their weakness . . . it was against the Falcons right after the Refusal War, they should have been stronger.  Not sure anyone else has that bias.

While a mechwarrior will take longer to train that a grunt infantryman, it will not be that much longer . . . they just will not have the skill of Clan mechwarriors.  They basically graduate the sibko as veterans having been operating mechs for 6-8 years by that point and been in combat.  Part of that is related to their warrior emphasis while the IS trains soldiers.  For example, I think tank crew take . . . 5 or 6 months to train in the US Army- 3 months Basic, 2-3 months MOS school.  In war time that 3 months of basic would be cut down to maybe 2 or 2.5.  Freebirths still go through a longer process than that if not the testing from birth trueborns experience.

[rebs]

There were three in Aidan's sibko by their final test, but all same, you got it.

[massey]

There were three in Aidan's sibko by their final test, but all same, you got it.

I've read that book like 5 times over the years, and I still can't remember who the third person was. 

[Hellraiser]

I'm thinking the ratio's of True to Free in traditional Mech/ASF/BA roles are pretty heavy towards True.

They can crank out canister babies as often as they want.

But the Free's have to fight to perform at an extremely high level to even be recognized & selected for Warrior training.

I'm going to guess less than 5% of Front Line forces are Free Born.

Garrison/2nd Line, maybe as high as 25-40% Free but I'm betting it isn't even that high except in clusters where they have dumped them all together.

[rebs]

I've read that book like 5 times over the years, and I still can't remember who the third person was.

He was a forgettable character named Brett.  That's why I made sure to say Colt basically got it, because I'm not nitpicking,  just saying for posterity.

[Hellraiser]

The Clan sibko system is engineered to maintain a certain force level.  I doubt we will ever see a product that describes why, but some sort of even must have occurred to freeze them into their pre-Invasion strengths otherwise they could have built huge armies.  The ONLY source we have for changes in a touman's paper strength would be the Coyotes who declined though no reason was ever solidly established for such a drop in strength.

While a mechwarrior will take longer to train that a grunt infantryman, it will not be that much longer . . . they just will not have the skill of Clan mechwarriors.  They basically graduate the sibko as veterans having been operating mechs for 6-8 years by that point and been in combat.  Part of that is related to their warrior emphasis while the IS trains soldiers.  For example, I think tank crew take . . . 5 or 6 months to train in the US Army- 3 months Basic, 2-3 months MOS school.  In war time that 3 months of basic would be cut down to maybe 2 or 2.5.  Freebirths still go through a longer process than that if not the testing from birth trueborns experience.

I've always assumed the size of clan toumans was because they lack the materials/resources & people to actually have a larger military.
Remember, Kerensky didn't WANT to settle in the Pentagon, they were crap worlds barely able to sustain the SLDF, but it was get off those ships or have an even worse revolt on his hands than the Eugen incident.

As for the US Army Tanker training.  Its 14 Weeks of OSUT (One Stop Unit Training) which is Basic + AIT together.   
Prior to the OSUT model it was 8 + 8 weeks.
With OSUT you are still getting hammered like your in basic at Week-11 with insane amounts of PT & getting dropped for Pushups at the slightest provocation.... but you do start training on the tanks at Week-3, so you mix longer time in both schools w/ breaks from both to do the other.

[Colt Ward]

I've always assumed the size of clan toumans was because they lack the materials/resources & people to actually have a larger military.
Remember, Kerensky didn't WANT to settle in the Pentagon, they were crap worlds barely able to sustain the SLDF, but it was get off those ships or have an even worse revolt on his hands than the Eugen incident.

Sure but they settled more worlds than just the Pentagon worlds, could settle even more, and finally none of the Invaders started a geometric growth curve while taking IS worlds.  So yeah, its a fait limiter to maintain balance but the main point is they reached a stasis for military strength and their manpower plans- which have to be worked out 19 years in advance- are built to maintain what they have or maybe a bit of growth if a Khan feels lucky.

[massey]

Still, they churn through soldiers like there's no tomorrow even during normal times.  Joanna the Falconer was 28 or so in the first Jade Phoenix book, and she was considered past her prime.  I think Ter Roshak was in his early 40s when he was in charge of the Ironhold training facilities.

So let's presume that the average Clan plans to replace the warriors in its front-line Galaxies every 8 years or so.  By the time you're 27 or 28, you've either been promoted to a command position, died in combat, or been reassigned to a second line spot.  That means you'd have to have a huge number of people passing their Trials of Position every year, just to make up for people getting old.

Normal Clan life, pre-Invasion, would be pretty damn harsh.  You could fight duels to the death over relatively minor insults.  And think of how many people died when Aidan was competing for his Bloodname.  So again, you've got to keep new warriors coming in.  Basically they're artificially keeping the numbers down because you've got a new batch of people coming in the next year, and you've gotta make room for them.  But they suspended a lot of that stuff during the Invasion.  It really shouldn't take them that long to recover their front line strength.  Yeah you might have a problem with second line forces, because you've now got a profound shortage of 40 year old guys who are never gonna get a Bloodname, but are also good enough to not get killed.  But even that could be filled fairly quickly if you ease up on testing requirements.  If a normal sibko produces 5 people who pass their test, maybe ease it up a bit so that now 8 or 10 people pass.

Any shortage of warriors should be a short term problem only.  By the time of Operation Bulldog, Smoke Jaguar should have been back to near full strength.

[Colt Ward]

Still, they churn through soldiers like there's no tomorrow even during normal times.  Joanna the Falconer was 28 or so in the first Jade Phoenix book, and she was considered past her prime.  I think Ter Roshak was in his early 40s when he was in charge of the Ironhold training facilities.

So let's presume that the average Clan plans to replace the warriors in its front-line Galaxies every 8 years or so.  By the time you're 27 or 28, you've either been promoted to a command position, died in combat, or been reassigned to a second line spot.  That means you'd have to have a huge number of people passing their Trials of Position every year, just to make up for people getting old.

Normal Clan life, pre-Invasion, would be pretty damn harsh.  You could fight duels to the death over relatively minor insults.  And think of how many people died when Aidan was competing for his Bloodname.  So again, you've got to keep new warriors coming in.  Basically they're artificially keeping the numbers down because you've got a new batch of people coming in the next year, and you've gotta make room for them.  But they suspended a lot of that stuff during the Invasion.  It really shouldn't take them that long to recover their front line strength.  Yeah you might have a problem with second line forces, because you've now got a profound shortage of 40 year old guys who are never gonna get a Bloodname, but are also good enough to not get killed.  But even that could be filled fairly quickly if you ease up on testing requirements.  If a normal sibko produces 5 people who pass their test, maybe ease it up a bit so that now 8 or 10 people pass.

The thing is they have what must be a massive social pressure NOT to do that as proven by the Steel Vipers.  And its not indicated anywhere the Jaguars even considered it.  Go back to Aidan, which like I said is about the best training life example we get.  I would say toss out Joanna's age as a outlier- she went that way b/c of her personality and failing Bloodname trials.  But how many cadets were still in the sibko the last few years that could have gone on?  IIRC Peri was one of the last to wash out, someone said the book had 3 make it . . . and two passed.  Even IF you ease up on the disqualifications before the Trial of Position, how many will pass that Trial?  Aidan, claimed to be one of the Falcons best failed his Trial.  If a Clan tried to lower their Trial of Position standards it would cause internal strife . . . and if it got out, it would bring the rest around sensing weakness.  Even if it does none of those things, you might start passing more of the lower skilled warriors- in game terms Green . . . what happens when they try to participate in a Trial?  They stand a higher chance of contributing to a loss.  Weakening standards sets in motion a cascade of failure, its not the way to go to be taken seriously.

The suspension of Homeworld trials would actually cause less casualties than the later waves of the Invasion, once they went beyond one or two Trinaries and started needing a Cluster plus to take a world the casualty counts probably exceeded what happened back home.  Especially since the frequency of combat increased for those clusters unlike in the Homeworlds.  Its why I waved Invasion casualties outside of Luthien & Tukayyid to be equivalent to Homeworld Trials, which was very erring on the Trial side.  I also erred on the low end of Luthien & Tukayyid casualties for the example Jaguars.

I would point out that not all who pass their Trial of Position end up in frontline galaxies, a lot of time that is seasoned (all of 23-25) warriors with a sprinkling of ristars from the sibkos.  Especially if you tested out into a command position, you are likely to end up in a secondline cluster- maybe a garrison formation.

Any shortage of warriors should be a short term problem only.  By the time of Operation Bulldog, Smoke Jaguar should have been back to near full strength.

And because weakening the standards is not a socially acceptable solution, they could not recover in material or warriors since their pipeline was to maintain force levels with a slight variation.  With the Invasion suspended by the truce, the Invaders were once again targets for normal Trials- which was sort of good for the Jaguars as it let them try to win away materials needed to rebuild but it cost troops.  Outside of the Homeworlds the Dracs on Wolcott kept up a steady bleed on the touman while the Cats and especially Labov's program affected the OZ too.  Its part of why the Scientists pursued the Protomech program (outside of Society stuff), it recycled discarded warriors and used less materials to produce combat equipment.

[pfarland]

Remember, near the end, the Jags were allowing re-tests of failed ToPs. While still Trueborn, they were certainly treated as 'lesser' warriors and started to fill in the gap left by the exclusion of Freeborn warriors. It was a little too late though.

[Colt Ward]

source?

[pfarland]

source?

I wish I could quote you a source right now. Almost all my books are in storage and aren't available.

I'm just a low ranking officer in my Clan, I don't know who gave the orders, lol

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure they did not . . . the Crusader Wolves DID institute that policy after half the touman fell into a black hole while the rest fought in the Refusal War.  The Vipers failures test for infantry IIRC.  The Ghost Bears DO offer a failure a 2nd track (Bjorn) in which some warriors really succeed (Bjorn & Alexander) and do not seem to suffer any stigma.

[CJC070]

One question I have about the Steel Vipers since they did not have any freeborns in their touman.  When they invaded the Jade Falcons territory in the Inner Sphere (or territory in the Homeworlds) were the freeborn paramilitary troops demoted or left alone?

[AlphaMirage]

The paramilitary doesn't count in the touman I think.  The Vipers probably weren't around long enough to change anything before they got ousted again and it is never really talked about how the Warriors interact with their police forces as long as Bandits aren't overrunning their bases

[CJC070]

The paramilitary doesn't count in the touman I think.  The Vipers probably weren't around long enough to change anything before they got ousted again and it is never really talked about how the Warriors interact with their police forces as long as Bandits aren't overrunning their bases

Thanks for the information.  I mostly get it from sarna.net and it only said that the Steel Vipers met with resistance the Inner sphere worlds.  Because I couldn't find any further information on that I thought it might have been in part replacing the police force who were more stringent than the Jade Falcons.