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Off Topic and Technical Support => Off Topic => Topic started by: Bedwyr on 29 October 2019, 13:45:40

Title: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 29 October 2019, 13:45:40
To start this off I give you the Lippisch Aerodyne.

(https://disciplesofflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Aerodyne_SM.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 29 October 2019, 13:46:28
Oh already. Oh well.

I was going to go for the Mig-28.

(https://modelbrouwers.nl/media/cache/4d/32/4d320d8f24d25bcfa7c4b115edb675bf.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 October 2019, 14:02:32
One of these things is not like the others...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Sukhoi_Su-47_in_formation,_2005.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 October 2019, 14:08:29
Regards the 'Tie Fighter Window' on the X-37, that's most likely the heaviest heat shielding.  Remember your nose-up attitude on re-entry, for the space shuttle about 30 degrees positive pitch so with a similar belly-shield aerodyne you'd have a similar profile.  That point of the 'window' is where you're hitting the atmosphere first, so it's going to have the highest heating friction.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 29 October 2019, 14:49:24
Is that " A why there's NO Star Wars in space. ", thing?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 October 2019, 14:53:08
A-5 Vigilante. Poops nukes.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/A3J-1s_VAH-7_CVAN-65_NAN11-62.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 October 2019, 15:57:44
Those look a bit big compared to the other fighters on the carrier . . . twin engine?  What is funny is it looks like a MiG-25 a bit . . . especially curious when I read that the Vigilante was supposed to be a twin tail airplane early in its design phase. 

(https://theweekendmodeller.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/mig-25-rb.jpg)

(https://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/e56754bca1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 October 2019, 16:00:10
Yeah, those A-5 wings don't fold enough to really fit on the carrier...

Bedwyr, what the heck IS that thing you started the thread with??  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 29 October 2019, 16:18:29
A-5 Vigilante. Poops nukes.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/A3J-1s_VAH-7_CVAN-65_NAN11-62.jpg)

And sometimes they didn't do when they launched from the carrier!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 October 2019, 16:27:47
That crazy parking arrangement on the flight deck is exactly what prompted my comment...  :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 October 2019, 16:51:15
From what I read, it was too big for some of the older carriers, I mean that picture is from the Enterprise!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 October 2019, 17:01:48
Oh already. Oh well.

I was going to go for the Mig-28.

(https://modelbrouwers.nl/media/cache/4d/32/4d320d8f24d25bcfa7c4b115edb675bf.jpg)

I will take your Mig-28 and go one better with a Mig-29
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 October 2019, 17:07:58
Those aren't MiG-29s...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 29 October 2019, 17:14:16
Some other movie?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 29 October 2019, 17:14:58
And the first one is not a MiG-28
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 29 October 2019, 18:10:25
Some other movie?
Iron Eagle II. and not the worst offense in that film either.

and you have to admit, at least Top Gun gave their proxy fighter an impossible designation, leaving you wondering how that world compared to ours. the Iron Eagle example was just outright dumb.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 October 2019, 18:20:59
Was Iron Eagle the movie where the teenage pilot shot a tank with a Sidewinder missile while his jet was on the ground?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Charlie 6 on 29 October 2019, 18:47:58
Going more assault support less anti-air warfare.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ghost0402 on 29 October 2019, 18:50:01
Was Iron Eagle the movie where the teenage pilot shot a tank with a Sidewinder missile while his jet was on the ground?
I think so
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 29 October 2019, 18:58:56
Was Iron Eagle the movie where the teenage pilot shot a tank with a Sidewinder missile while his jet was on the ground?

Pretty sure he used a Maverick missile in that scene, but yes it was while grounded.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 October 2019, 19:06:04
Going more assault support less anti-air warfare.
Sweet shot!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: David CGB on 29 October 2019, 23:03:49
Going more assault support less anti-air warfare.
great pic
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 October 2019, 01:06:50
Was Iron Eagle the movie where the teenage pilot shot a tank with a Sidewinder missile while his jet was on the ground?

Iron Eagle I . . . II was MORE over the top 80s goodness.

I do wonder if a Sidewinder would pick up a M1A1's turbine . . . I mean, its a bit silly . . . but I LOVED the ability in the old Jane's ATF to take a B-2, load in some HARMs and hit patrolling fighters b/c I could detect their radar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 30 October 2019, 03:59:00
Those look a bit big compared to the other fighters on the carrier . . . twin engine?  What is funny is it looks like a MiG-25 a bit . . . especially curious when I read that the Vigilante was supposed to be a twin tail airplane early in its design phase. 

Well, the A-5 was a carrier-based, long-range, supersonic nuclear bomber, not a fighter. A definite case of "Chancellor, we are for the big!".

And while the A-5 and Mig-25 were rough contemporaries (Vigilante '58, Foxbat '64), it's more about covergent evolution - having a highish-mach airframe dictates a pointy nose, and the top-forward intakes with intake ramps are features of many other such airplanes, from the F-15 to Concorde and the Tu-22. Heck, the Valkyrie has them, but on their sides!

Shoulder-mounted wings allowed for ordnance or fuel to be carried under the wings - the Vigilante originally carried a droptank under each wing, while the Foxbat mounted four of those telephone-pole Acrids. Also allows keeping the landing gear shorter, unlike the Hustler.

Now the Vigilante was operational before the Foxbat took first flight, but the Foxbat was the child of a long evolutionary process starting with the Ye-150 and Ye-152 (think Mig-21 on ALL THE STEROIDS), and the Ye-155 (direct ancestor of the Foxbat) had things like wingtip fuel tanks and canards, which the A-5 never had. Plus IMHO the Foxbat is a beefy, brutal design built around those massive and tempermental Tumansky engines, while the Vigilante was a long, lean design based around the weapons "bay" located between the pair of J-79s.

But then, like Buran, knowing something can be done one way does concentrate the mind, without the need for detailed espionage.

And to round off this adventure for a plane born around the same time as myself, I give you the NR-349 - a Vigilante upgraded to three J-79s, and meant to carry 6 Phoenix missiles as a dash interceptor, replacing the cancelled XF-108 Rapier (for which the Phoenixes were originally developed. The Tomcat just got the radar crammed in  & the missiles slung). Note the over-wing intakes feeding the 3rd engine. I can't help but wonder if the NR-349 was meant to emulate the Foxbat ;)

(https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/nara-5cevolutionnr-349interceptor-jpg.42141/)

(https://i.imgur.com/iReDIgF.jpg)


Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 30 October 2019, 08:28:57
Murphy's Dice...that thing probably has only two throttle settings: "Landing" and "Hold My Beer". :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 October 2019, 09:57:36
Oh, I get convergent evolution . . . which is especially poignant since the MiG would have been tasked IMO to go after such speedy nuke tossers, if you are going to catch something that fast you have to be faster.  Personally i just have the 'Walker' class submarine example frequently in the back of my mind when comparing US & USSR equipment.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 30 October 2019, 10:39:27
MiG-25s first entered service in 1970. A-5s were out of service starting 1963 & converted to the recon role...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 30 October 2019, 10:51:28
MiG-25s first entered service in 1970. A-5s were out of service starting 1963 & converted to the recon role...

Damon.

I think he was referencing when design work and prototyping began, Garrand, not when it became a front-liner or when the soviets began cranking out the export model.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 30 October 2019, 10:55:48
to be fair, the A-5 only started service in '58, so the soviet union probably expected them to be in service a lot longer than they did. and the Mig-25's first flight was in 1964, so it was clearly in development while the A-5 was new. given that there were a number of other high speed craft at the time (the SR-71's, the F-104's, the B-58, etc) that the soviet union's existing stuff would struggle to handle effectively, the MiG-25 was probably inevitable whether the A-5 stuck around or not. at the time it looked like "speed is life" was going to be the watchword for air warfare in the future. that SAM advancements would force a shift towards terrain following tactics wasn't exactly foreseen yet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 30 October 2019, 11:20:58
The point I was making is that the MiG-25 probably wouldn't be popping A-5s in a WWIII type scenario. If the RA-5s were going to be used, probably in a post-strike evaluation role.

Allegedly the MiG-25 was designed specifically to intercept the XB-70 Valkyrie IIRC. Of course an aircraft with that performance margin would be useful against a host of other aircraft, though I have doubts about it dogfighting with F-104s (or really with anything...). The MiG-25 achieved its impressive performance by sacrificing just about everything else, & being very, very much the specialist in the straight-line, missile armed interceptor role.

Damon.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 30 October 2019, 11:31:23
given that soviet air doctrine downplayed dogfighting in favor of ground control guided interception, i suspect that the MiG-25 would have been murder on most bombers, and would have been hard for western fighters to counter effectively if it avoided being sucked into a dogfight. with its speed if the initial exchange of missiles didn't take out the enemy, the MiG's would probably just put pedal to the metal to withdraw and come around for another pass once they were in safer airspace.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 30 October 2019, 11:54:42
I think Western fighters wouldn't meet it too often. Yes, a big threat to bombers, though I suspect the same thing could have been done on a less ambitious platform in the end.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 30 October 2019, 12:19:10
Wasn't the Mig-25's speed and range more for patrolling the very, very large airspace?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 October 2019, 13:09:36
Perhaps, but when the balloon goes up it allows them to be vectored by the STRAVKA (or whatever the regional airspace commands were called) to intercept targets, letting them quickly go from place to place as well as reload & get back to damaging the bomber streams.

Post WWII jet fighter & bomber doctrines are interesting b/c the senior officers made their careers with props and 'learned' the lessons of the WWII air campaigns.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 30 October 2019, 16:32:05
Amusingly topical youtube video on the MiG-25 released today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Q8J9liF4M)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 30 October 2019, 17:09:53
Liam: interesting, but that particular channel seems suspect to me (and not just based on the production quality and newness).  At the very least (and within the scope of Rule 4), I can say they certainly didn't read Roger Hesketh's book about Operation FORTITUDE (one of their other videos).  It's a great book, and worth the slog it can be to read.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 30 October 2019, 17:42:36
Liam: interesting, but that particular channel seems suspect to me (and not just based on the production quality and newness).  At the very least (and within the scope of Rule 4), I can say they certainly didn't read Roger Hesketh's book about Operation FORTITUDE (one of their other videos).  It's a great book, and worth the slog it can be to read.

Honestly, the channel does get a bit iffy at times, which was actually some of the appeal at first. Goofy channels that go for a spooky conspiratorial feel are entertaining for me. I also used to like to read my Grandmother's old collection of UFO magazines for the same reason.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 30 October 2019, 17:52:46
Fun clip - seeing the plane deserted at Morohino (sp?) was soo sad.

But the frequent use of incorrect plane images - "Japanese airforce scrambled two Phantoms", while showing two F-111, did jar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 October 2019, 18:57:50
Murphy's Dice...that thing probably has only two throttle settings: "Landing" and "Hold My Beer". :o
Challenge accepted.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 30 October 2019, 19:56:16
That looks like something from Outlaw Star.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 30 October 2019, 21:40:31
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/e2/c2/90e2c2523d902e64b4379a4608d269be.jpg)

More like this really.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bren on 30 October 2019, 22:06:06
Challenge accepted.

Ahh so that seems to be where the 'Star Stiletto' came from ...

(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/303096611465_/100-ORIGINAL-vintage-GI-JOE-complete-STELLAR-STILETTO.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 31 October 2019, 01:18:34
Well, the A-5 was a carrier-based, long-range, supersonic nuclear bomber, not a fighter. A definite case of "Chancellor, we are for the big!".

And while the A-5 and Mig-25 were rough contemporaries (Vigilante '58, Foxbat '64), it's more about covergent evolution - having a highish-mach airframe dictates a pointy nose, and the top-forward intakes with intake ramps are features of many other such airplanes, from the F-15 to Concorde and the Tu-22. Heck, the Valkyrie has them, but on their sides!

Shoulder-mounted wings allowed for ordnance or fuel to be carried under the wings - the Vigilante originally carried a droptank under each wing, while the Foxbat mounted four of those telephone-pole Acrids. Also allows keeping the landing gear shorter, unlike the Hustler.

Now the Vigilante was operational before the Foxbat took first flight, but the Foxbat was the child of a long evolutionary process starting with the Ye-150 and Ye-152 (think Mig-21 on ALL THE STEROIDS), and the Ye-155 (direct ancestor of the Foxbat) had things like wingtip fuel tanks and canards, which the A-5 never had. Plus IMHO the Foxbat is a beefy, brutal design built around those massive and tempermental Tumansky engines, while the Vigilante was a long, lean design based around the weapons "bay" located between the pair of J-79s.

But then, like Buran, knowing something can be done one way does concentrate the mind, without the need for detailed espionage.

And to round off this adventure for a plane born around the same time as myself, I give you the NR-349 - a Vigilante upgraded to three J-79s, and meant to carry 6 Phoenix missiles as a dash interceptor, replacing the cancelled XF-108 Rapier (for which the Phoenixes were originally developed. The Tomcat just got the radar crammed in  & the missiles slung). Note the over-wing intakes feeding the 3rd engine. I can't help but wonder if the NR-349 was meant to emulate the Foxbat ;)

(https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/nara-5cevolutionnr-349interceptor-jpg.42141/)

(https://i.imgur.com/iReDIgF.jpg)

Just how much asbestos and cooling would it require to keep the middle J79 from overheating and melting out the bottom of the airframe? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 October 2019, 02:07:14
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/0b/19/200b193fd45e0189f4efae184121457e.jpg)

You know, I thought they were sort of crazy to ride a rocket fighter up . . . but THIS dude should KNOW how unstable the thing is and is still flying it?

Then again, that would be a light your pants on fire thrill ride (and yeah, that rocket might literally light your pants on fire).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 31 October 2019, 02:18:46
At least it wasn't the Viper.

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/bachem-ba-349-b-1-natter-viper
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 31 October 2019, 04:17:19
Ahh so that seems to be where the 'Star Stiletto' came from ...

(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/303096611465_/100-ORIGINAL-vintage-GI-JOE-complete-STELLAR-STILETTO.jpg)

Loved that thing. Had the toy and the original comics it was in. Still love that one comic which was a massive combat between virtually every type of aerial unit both GIJoe and Cobra has in their arsenals at the time.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 31 October 2019, 04:33:57
Challenge accepted.
Reminds me of the Swordfish II from Cowboy Bebop, minus wings and oversized chin gun

or vaguely like a Colonial Viper
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 October 2019, 08:20:27
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/0b/19/200b193fd45e0189f4efae184121457e.jpg)

You know, I thought they were sort of crazy to ride a rocket fighter up . . . but THIS dude should KNOW how unstable the thing is and is still flying it?

Then again, that would be a light your pants on fire thrill ride (and yeah, that rocket might literally light your pants on fire).

That's an unpowered glider replica constructed in the nineties.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 31 October 2019, 08:24:40
From what I could find it also has quite nice flying characteristics.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 31 October 2019, 09:28:00
Wasn't the Mig-25's speed and range more for patrolling the very, very large airspace?
Actually the combat radius of a MiG-25 wasn't that big, just shy of 300 km. The total range (not ferry range, though) on internal fuel was around 1,860 km or 1,000 nmi.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 31 October 2019, 09:43:17
Soviet Fighters were very fuel hungry. Big and thirsty for what the fighters were, and most of them didn't have in flight refueling, so that really limited their patrol range.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 31 October 2019, 11:05:00
A-5 Vigilante. Poops nukes.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/A3J-1s_VAH-7_CVAN-65_NAN11-62.jpg)
At least until the nuclear turd became a nuclear dingleberry...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 31 October 2019, 13:36:18
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/0b/19/200b193fd45e0189f4efae184121457e.jpg)

You know, I thought they were sort of crazy to ride a rocket fighter up . . . but THIS dude should KNOW how unstable the thing is and is still flying it?

Then again, that would be a light your pants on fire thrill ride (and yeah, that rocket might literally light your pants on fire).
Well, the flight design was tested as a glider and a propeller driven prototype.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 October 2019, 14:07:19
One of the five Me 262 Project flyable replicas:

(https://cdn.planespotters.net/photo/400000/original/n262mf-private-messerschmitt-me-262-schwalbe-replica_PlanespottersNet_400824_2be5c27cbb.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 31 October 2019, 14:07:24
Challenge accepted.
Wait wait, that concept is supposed to be built around the freaking A-10's CANNON?!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 October 2019, 15:26:04
To . . . literally make a flying cannon?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 31 October 2019, 17:06:01
To . . . literally make a flying cannon?
a *fighter* built around it. THat concept echo F-16 Falcon in many of its elements.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 31 October 2019, 19:56:16
Wait wait, that concept is supposed to be built around the freaking A-10's CANNON?!  :o
Yup.  Frankly that's how you have to build such a thing.

Here's the scary part - with that nose, cockpit setback, and the sheer lack of lift it has in the design...

LAND IT.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 01 November 2019, 08:51:39
Yup.  Frankly that's how you have to build such a thing.

Here's the scary part - with that nose, cockpit setback, and the sheer lack of lift it has in the design...

LAND IT.
Well the good news is that the center of pressure is certainly aft of the center of mass :).  An F-16 XL wing would certainly help with the lift issues, but that raydome looks like they are trying to maintain the F-16's air to air capability.

As to the cockpit setback, I'm not saying it would be easy, but when you stack it against landing a commercial jet where you are 3 stories up or some of the notorious planes like the U2 or SR-71, it should be possible to learn.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 November 2019, 10:40:20
Yeah, but how screaming fast do you have to come in on approach?  The stall speed on that can NOT be comfortably low...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 01 November 2019, 11:01:06
Yeah, but how screaming fast do you have to come in on approach?  The stall speed on that can NOT be comfortably low...
It's going to be noticeably draggy-ier than a Viper by that high cockpit, which probably generates some weird vorticies. It's also going to be heavier to account for that GAU-8, but the increased surface from a cranked arrow wing should offset quite a bit of that.  I'm not saying this thing would ever be mentioned in the same breath as the P-51D, but I doubt it would a B-26 either.  Digital flight controls should address most of the weirdness cause by the strange layout, but there will still be a lot of quirks.   Although I am concerned that control authority at low speeds might become an issue, regardless of lift. If this thing was meant to be some kind of next gen A-10, it won't have anything like the low speed performance or loiter time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 01 November 2019, 11:56:54
I would also question what sort of warload it could carry too. While the big honkin' gun in the A-10 is scary, the flexible warload across 11 hardpoints is what makes the A-10 really effective at its job. That design just doesn't strike me as being able to carry much.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 01 November 2019, 14:50:16
I would also question what sort of warload it could carry too. While the big honkin' gun in the A-10 is scary, the flexible warload across 11 hardpoints is what makes the A-10 really effective at its job. That design just doesn't strike me as being able to carry much.

Damon.
I suspect there are quite a few reasons that this thing is just a couple of obscure sketches.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 November 2019, 17:26:45
When things go wrong, they go wrong hard, and gravity is a *****.  OV-1 Mohawk in private hands went down today at an airshow; pilot dead but nobody in the stands was affected it seems.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/01/us/florida-air-show-plane-crash-trnd/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/01/us/florida-air-show-plane-crash-trnd/index.html)

Damn shame.

(https://crewdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Grumman-OV-1-Mohawk.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 November 2019, 21:01:11
The report I saw said it was practicing for a show, not performing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 02 November 2019, 16:54:35
I know we've discussed the SR-71's visibility along with comments about its infrared signature in the last thread, but I just ran across this low-light photo of a Blackbird in full afterburner at low altitude. That's a lotta fire!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EITJtf4XYAUHq1Q.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 November 2019, 17:07:10
No kidding!   :o

During the day that might be lost in the sun, but any other time...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 November 2019, 17:13:54
During the day the sun might be lost in that
ftfy
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 November 2019, 17:21:33
LOL... and like the new avatar ANS Kamas P81!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 November 2019, 18:43:00
Meanwhile, from Popular Mechanics...the Kratos Valkyrie!

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/190617-f-f3456-1001-1568065006.jpeg?resize=980:*)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a28969767/air-force-disposable-warplanes/

The plan is now a three-million-dollar drone to fly alongside F-35s, the -35 acting as the flight leader and the drones as wingmen; one JSF with three drones instead of a flight of four -35s.  Costwise, there's something to it, going from around 350 million dollars of jets to under 100 at any given time, plus saving a lot of maintenance hours on the pricey jets...but I can't help but wonder how overworked the pilots are going to be.  Unless the autonomous software capability is that crazy good now, in which case...well, there's a reason they're fast-tracking the program to be fully up by 2023.

Can't help but think I saw this somewhere before, somewhere else that had Valkyries in it.  Coincidence?  Totally, I'm sure...

(https://i.imgur.com/JWVDz1G.jpg)

 ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 November 2019, 18:48:31
Oh sure... TOTALLY coincidence...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 02 November 2019, 19:18:52
Macross II
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 02 November 2019, 20:20:32
Story was crap, Mecha designs were gorgeous!

And as freaking goofy as some of the later series are, THIS is the one that's non canon?   ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Deadborder on 02 November 2019, 20:32:53
Story was crap, Mecha designs were gorgeous!

And as freaking goofy as some of the later series are, THIS is the one that's non canon?   ???

The reasons why Macross II is non-canon would be enough for an entire thread of their own
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 02 November 2019, 20:42:59
Really loved the Valkeries and wish they got the Bandai MG treatment, or at least Hasegawa.  They were very limited release compared to the canon counterparts.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 November 2019, 23:20:45
Anime talk to the anime thread!

Meanwhile, Russia has adopted Creeper camouflage.

(https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/09/1l-image-Mi-24P-1M.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 November 2019, 23:50:59
Creeper camouflage?  I'm pretty sure they were just playing Tetris.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 03 November 2019, 12:14:37
The reasons why Macross II is non-canon would be enough for an entire thread of their own
The core reason though was simply "it wasn't made by the company that made the rest"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 November 2019, 14:40:24
The core reason though was simply "it wasn't made by the company that made the rest"

I though Macross II was ok.

Back to planes. That SR-71 with the afterburners is just awesome
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 03 November 2019, 17:38:01
How about a test B-29 with some oddball turrets?

(https://i.imgur.com/sqkioiG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ckFuN0x.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 November 2019, 17:54:35
Those definitely qualify as oddball!  Were they done after the war?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 03 November 2019, 18:17:35
Dude this is a family friendly forum, don't post NSFW things like that!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 03 November 2019, 18:18:49
I kinda wish I had a spare B-29 to mod up like that now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 03 November 2019, 18:28:06
I suppose the manned turrets were never employed because it mean no pressurized cockpit.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 03 November 2019, 18:56:38
Freudian much...?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 03 November 2019, 21:17:51
"we'd like to show you a photo of those turrets, however whenever we post, a blacked out box appears over them"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 04 November 2019, 09:09:57
I though Macross II was ok.

Back to planes. That SR-71 with the afterburners is just awesome

I think it was Ben Rich's book that mentioned something about radar operators, possibly weather radar, could tell when the SR-71(or A-12) was Eastbound over the Pacific because of it's thermal signature. That book is on loan so I can't check right now.   But even if the anecdote is  accurate, you can't get a very good track when best bearing fix is +/-22 degrees.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 04 November 2019, 14:52:37
The margins for performing a successful intercept on a Blackbird at speed were ... microscopically thin. In most cases, when interceptors were vectored or even missiles were fired, I understand all it had to do was change course marginally to be 100% safe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 04 November 2019, 16:21:24
(https://i.imgur.com/sqkioiG.jpg)
" I like to see girls of that... caliber.

 By "caliber," of course, I refer to both the size of their gun barrels and the high quality of their characters... Two meanings... caliber... it's a homonym... Forget it. "

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 November 2019, 10:46:09
The margins for performing a successful intercept on a Blackbird at speed were ... microscopically thin. In most cases, when interceptors were vectored or even missiles were fired, I understand all it had to do was change course marginally to be 100% safe.

could you imagine the show of two planes with that performance trying to dogfight? 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 05 November 2019, 11:57:04
could you imagine the show of two planes with that performance trying to dogfight?
I can't see more than one head on pass because by the time one plane turns around, the other one will be 2 time zones away.

Most of what we know of ACM will need some revisions based on the fact that turning at these speeds would be a bad day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 05 November 2019, 14:54:43
Planes that can't turn at that speed can't dogfight, and can't remain in the air long at the lower speeds. It'd be a short clip - two radar vectors intersecting for a fraction of a second ...

Now F-15s, F-16s - they can turn and burn, and boom and zoom.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 05 November 2019, 15:36:26
More in common with ICBM intercept vehicles, methinks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 06 November 2019, 09:02:46
Planes that can't turn at that speed can't dogfight, and can't remain in the air long at the lower speeds. It'd be a short clip - two radar vectors intersecting for a fraction of a second ...

Now F-15s, F-16s - they can turn and burn, and boom and zoom.
As an SR-71/A-12 pilot, I would start to nervous if I heard there was a YAL-1 out there, looking for me...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 November 2019, 13:00:53
Mi-28 Havoc

(https://www.wallsauce.com/uploads/wallsauce-com/images/products/web/laith-jobran/large/mil-mi-28-havoc.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 November 2019, 13:03:10
Ka-52

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/0f/19/830f19a0307acc686f687b757c5f0e20.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 November 2019, 13:07:56
Mi-35 Super Hind

(http://im.rediff.com/news/2015/jun/18lead2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 November 2019, 13:43:46
Ka-52

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/0f/19/830f19a0307acc686f687b757c5f0e20.jpg)

Looks like a boss fight from an early 90s shooter game.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 07 November 2019, 13:44:02
Is that a fuel tank on the port pylon between the rockets & body?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 November 2019, 17:24:04
Looks more like a camera pod to me...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 07 November 2019, 18:39:47
Looks more like a camera pod to me...

Bit confused what he's referring to. I see the sensor gimbal below the nose, what I assume are left and right main gear wheels, then mostly daylight between the rocket hardpoint and the body, and exhaust nozzle pointed up and away from the engine intake.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 November 2019, 18:45:54
I thought he was talking about the Super Hind...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 07 November 2019, 18:46:24
This is not a render.

My favourite camo.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYsLtjmh/0607109.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 November 2019, 18:46:56
Ummm… was there supposed to be a picture?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 07 November 2019, 18:54:36
I thought he was talking about the Super Hind...

Ah, quite possibly. The quoted picture threw me off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 November 2019, 18:56:32
Odd... the second time I came back to this thread, Kidd's picture was there, but not the first, and there's been no visible edit...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 07 November 2019, 19:15:36
Odd... the second time I came back to this thread, Kidd's picture was there, but not the first, and there's been no visible edit...  ???
I made a mistake with the URL link, and edited it within the same minute it was posted, so there was no "edited at xxx" message

just an FYI so web admins know there isn't any glitch here :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 November 2019, 19:17:27
Thanks for the update!  I was wondering if I was seeing things for a minute there... Just bad timing on my part it seems...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 November 2019, 22:17:29
Is that a fuel tank on the port pylon between the rockets & body?

Looks to be the exact type of tank the Havoc (or is it is often referred to as: the Apachski) is carrying.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 07 November 2019, 22:38:07
Looks to be the exact type of tank the Havoc (or is it is often referred to as: the Apachski) is carrying.

Are those holes in the front of those pods?  Could those be gun pods?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 November 2019, 23:00:30
So, Netflix just popped up a new documentary: Spitfire: The Plane That Saved the World.

Anyone seen it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 November 2019, 01:16:37
I thought he was talking about the Super Hind...

I was, someone else responded to make it look out of place.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Deadborder on 08 November 2019, 03:47:16
Mi-35 Super Hind

(http://im.rediff.com/news/2015/jun/18lead2.jpg)

Because the Hind wasn't ugly enough allready
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 08 November 2019, 06:40:48
Because the Hind wasn't ugly enough allready

The Hind is like the A-10: big, bad, and beautiful.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 08 November 2019, 11:30:35
Paint up a Hind and they look pretty good!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 08 November 2019, 12:16:03
Paint up a Hind and they look pretty good!
The Czechs won that competition forever.
(https://acesflyinghigh.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/img_0597.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 08 November 2019, 12:36:44
Changing the focus of discussion, I have been reading the Haynes Owners' Workshop Manual on the RAF Tornado and reading about the work up for deployment for Gulf War 1 in 1991 and the general introduction to service in the 1980s and thinking about how old fashioned so much of the technology sounds - for example the inability to launch "smart" munitions, that the radars in service with the RAF before the F3's was 1950s technology (ignoring the American technology in the F-4 Phantom and just looking at domestically produced kit) etc


Then I realise how long ago that all was, I was a child but reasonably military geeky (albeit still at primary school) when the first Gulf War happened and everything since has been a technology driver for military output as attempts are made to minimise boots on the ground and risk to our own forces while also lessening "collateral damage"


The RAF has now retired the Tornado earlier in 2019 after 40 years of service


I am saddened that the RAF no longer has a fighter aircraft with a back seater as I do think that the capability to have someone concentrating on flying while another looks at sensor data or coordinates from up close is worth having (the other aircraft that would benefit from that in my opinion is the A-10)


Now, here are some pictures from Wikipedia
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 November 2019, 13:10:41
The Tornado always seemed to have a really big tail.

I am going to say the last (and I think already longest serving) Cold Warrior will be the B-52.
(http://cdn.gearpatrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/b-52-bomber-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 08 November 2019, 13:51:25
The Czechs won that competition forever.
(https://acesflyinghigh.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/img_0597.jpg)
I'm not the only one getting an Alien vibe, am I?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 08 November 2019, 13:56:04
Nope.  But that's probably the most PG version of Gieger's art I've seen.  Most of it is rather disturbing.

Regarding the Tornado, anyone else play the flight sim?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 08 November 2019, 14:07:19

I am saddened that the RAF no longer has a fighter aircraft with a back seater as I do think that the capability to have someone concentrating on flying while another looks at sensor data or coordinates from up close is worth having (the other aircraft that would benefit from that in my opinion is the A-10)

They don't need that as much any more since with proper GPS, inertial navigation equipment and fly by wire systems, they don't need to do manual map reading and bomb dropping; equipment and softwares are getting more user friendly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 08 November 2019, 14:14:57
They don't need that as much any more since with proper GPS, inertial navigation equipment and fly by wire systems, they don't need to do manual map reading and bomb dropping; equipment and softwares are getting more user friendly.


I suppose I think of it as mixing the offensive/defensive thinking - if I, as the pilot, can either focus on lining up an attack while someone else on board looks for threats (like SAMs) or else I can concentrate on keeping my head on a swivel and looking for threats and moving the aircraft through the sky while my backseater focuses on making a precision attack with a guided weapon danger close to friendly forces and collateral targets one would rather avoid
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 08 November 2019, 14:30:19

I suppose I think of it as mixing the offensive/defensive thinking - if I, as the pilot, can either focus on lining up an attack while someone else on board looks for threats (like SAMs) or else I can concentrate on keeping my head on a swivel and looking for threats and moving the aircraft through the sky while my backseater focuses on making a precision attack with a guided weapon danger close to friendly forces and collateral targets one would rather avoid
Re: SAMs - modern aircraft have much better threat receivers, and automatic chaff and decoy dispensers that decide themselves when best to deploy, unlike jets of that generation which still were manually deployed (at least the earlier models)

Re: attack with guided weapons - likewise with advanced guided weapons and bombing navigation systems they have less to worry about that these days

Aircraft back-seaters now tend to be electronic warfare experts, since that is now the only operator-intensive job they're needed for, but even so modern systems on the 4.5th and 5th gen aircraft can be comfortably operated by the pilot - supposedly the F-35's electronic attack suite is even more "push-button" than that

Although they do say there may be a need for a drone operator in near future combat aircraft, to operate "loyal wingman" drones. But even those will improve in autonomy eventually.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 09 November 2019, 05:22:46
IIRC the French navy decided to only buy two-seater Rafales given experience i Libya? The F-35 is certainly more advanced but I suspect operator workload is still a big factor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 November 2019, 18:54:57
So I made some pretty major changes to that one make-a-military project and I've moved on to the Air Force.  Anyone got really good sites or information like at http://armee-francaise-1989.wifeo.com/ for any nation's air force?  Trying to get a feel for how to organize the whole thing; something top-to-bottom would be best but I can only imagine that's a nightmare.  I'm looking for everything from national HQ staffing to individual flight regiments and squadrons.
Quote
Combat Helicopter Regiment
907 men
215 ground vehicles
Command & Services Squadron
Support & Refueling Squadron
1st Reconnaissance Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.341F Gazelle
2nd Light Attack Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.341F2 Gazelle Cannon
3rd Anti-Tank Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.342M Gazelle HOT
4th Anti-Tank Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.342M Gazelle HOT
5th Anti-Tank Helicopter Squadron: 10 SA.342M Gazelle HOT
6th Transport & Utility Helicopter Squadron: 11 SA.330Ba Puma
Information like that, so I can see how pieces go together and how big support forces are, then jumble it all up.

And since I posted a thing about helicopters, have a Raptor-Viper-JSF picture.

(https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2019/11/5147213-e1573214973615.jpg)

Looks like they're testing datalinking F-22s and F-35s; right now they only talk to others of their own type but there's work to bridge that gap and let them share all kinds of data between different platforms.  Networked Flying Death, ho!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2019, 18:56:35
And here I thougt that's what Link 16 was supposed to do...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 10 November 2019, 19:13:25
And here I thougt that's what Link 16 was supposed to do...  ::)
C3 doesn't work with Stealth Armour turned on, so they're developing an Advanced C3 that does
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 November 2019, 19:21:30
LOL!  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 10 November 2019, 21:06:05
more that LINK-16 is the datalink equivalent of dialup, and the high speed internet of the F-22 and F-35 systems only work for other F-22's and F-35's respectively.

the irony of course is that the swede's TIDLS already does most of what NATO and the US wants, but only works on the swedish built hardware and software right now, and no one is interested in converting away from the LINK-16 standard.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 November 2019, 21:34:58
I understand they're playing around with the AESA radars to do this; all the 1700-some emitters can project separate beams and they're electronically steering them to bounce a pencil-beam onto friendly aircraft.

Creepy tech.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 10 November 2019, 21:36:07
I understand they're playing around with the AESA radars to do this; all the 1700-some emitters can project separate beams and they're electronically steering them to bounce a pencil-beam onto friendly aircraft.

Creepy tech.

We almost had a research proposal at our lab to join with a company test theoretical airborne wireless charging of drones via AESA radar. Quite the tech.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 November 2019, 00:00:43
wifi is watching you
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 11 November 2019, 08:49:56
We almost had a research proposal at our lab to join with a company test theoretical airborne wireless charging of drones via AESA radar. Quite the tech.
I'm split between "That sounds like it could be a fun project," and "that's going to be a bloody nightmare!"
The balance between focusing(relatively easy), aiming/tracking(a little trickier), energy flux at the target(starting to get hard), and not frying everything but the power receiver(this would be Kelley Johnson's one allowable miracle) sounds "interesting," to say the least.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 11 November 2019, 10:17:52
I'd mostly worry about the efficiency... I'd guess 10% would be fantastic, which means you're not only wasting a lot but you're also blasting a lot of Watts into the sky in frequencies other radio and radar will find rather irritating.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 11 November 2019, 11:09:45
I'd mostly worry about the efficiency... I'd guess 10% would be fantastic, which means you're not only wasting a lot but you're also blasting a lot of Watts into the sky in frequencies other radio and radar will find rather irritating.

Yup. That's why it's basic research. To see if you can and discover where the actual edges of performance are. We've done basic tracking for laser communications before and Notre Dame has done a much more souped up version of this (it's now testing prototype laser weaponry):

(https://newsassets.cirium.com/Assets/GetAsset.aspx?itemid=64324)

The efficiency question is nearly all about freespace losses and only then what you can gain back at the margins through system designs. Relative angles account for a lot of it as well. Our first prototype would have been to see if we could get a bench system to charge *at all* and then flight test with tracking systems and see if that charges *at all*. Then you get another grant to see if you can improve it. That basically engineering research in a nutshell.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 11 November 2019, 11:54:56
Well, getting some power through isn't hard. After all that's what ordinary radio does. I was thinking about a talk I heard about wireless charging of cars. Put an antenna in the floor and another in the bottom of the car, and park right above. Ideal position, range ~1 foot, about 50% efficiency... :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 11 November 2019, 12:11:20
Well, getting some power through isn't hard. After all that's what ordinary radio does. I was thinking about a talk I heard about wireless charging of cars. Put an antenna in the floor and another in the bottom of the car, and park right above. Ideal position, range ~1 foot, about 50% efficiency... :P
Unless you can build the RF equivalent of a laser, a RASER?  MASER?, 1/r2 is going to eat your lunch VERY quickly.

Like I said, a toss up between "fricken awesome" and "miserable nightmare" of a project.    Full disclosure, I've also had too much experience where upper management insisted on chasing something that would never exist, so the folks doing the work, it was "yessir," and down the rabbit hole.  If this project is being run by people who are willing to say, "this is a bust, move on to something else," then the nightmare scenario is becoming less daunting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 11 November 2019, 16:08:43
MASER. Actually older than lasers IIRC. Haven't really read much about them, but I suspect they're not all that efficient in themselves. :(

But, well, the basic idea isn't so farfetched. There's been work done on microwave power transmissions for solar power sats, after all. Power losses wouldn't be a big deal there (simply a cost factor), thought I read that one of the major objections were that dumping loads of power into everything in between the sats and the receiver was potentially a very bad idea.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 11 November 2019, 16:47:21
  Full disclosure, I've also had too much experience where upper management insisted on chasing something that would never exist, so the folks doing the work, it was "yessir," and down the rabbit hole.

You call that a nightmare scenario. I call that öpportunity, and job security for the next 12 months. And who knows? You might get lucky and have one of those "Hmmmmm, that don't look right?"moments on something altogether different ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 11 November 2019, 19:19:17
FWIW I'm talking about charging small UAS swarms and not, like, an electric reaper or even a Fire Scout. That's still low power but the research is to look for the edges of what could be possible, not product development.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 November 2019, 19:29:10
And who knows when someone is going to get their head Eureka'd with a totally different thing entirely after spending months in said rabbit hole?  Spinoffs are so deliciously unpredictable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 11 November 2019, 19:39:21
Even if failed, the research would at least inform how NOT to long range remotely charge an airborne vehicle. Knowing what doesn't work is part of finding out what works.

Sorry, has this been posted before?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/72/41/1e72412b32fccaf21da08d8bc7248952.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 11 November 2019, 19:41:33
And who knows when someone is going to get their head Eureka'd with a totally different thing entirely after spending months in said rabbit hole?  Spinoffs are so deliciously unpredictable.

You mean like flying freakin' sharks with laser beams on their foreheads, crazy?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 November 2019, 19:43:09
Nice Viggens!  :thumbsup:

As far as the recharging thing... I'm having a hard time imagining where you'd have a drone of the appropriate size deployed in an area where you'd need a recharge of that kind for long enough that it would need a recharge at all...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 November 2019, 19:53:39
Nice Viggens!  :thumbsup:

As far as the recharging thing... I'm having a hard time imagining where you'd have a drone of the appropriate size deployed in an area where you'd need a recharge of that kind for long enough that it would need a recharge at all...

What about recharging things that aren't looking to be recharged?  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 November 2019, 19:58:45
I suppose that could happen, but the odds seem pretty low to me...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 11 November 2019, 23:31:42
Nice Viggens!  :thumbsup:

As far as the recharging thing... I'm having a hard time imagining where you'd have a drone of the appropriate size deployed in an area where you'd need a recharge of that kind for long enough that it would need a recharge at all...

Area denial jamming by a large swarm. Not even kidding, that was one of the use cases we talked over with the company and previous work by the Office of Naval Research. One of their team members I knew. We had talked about the logistics of flying disposable jamming drones made from printing dirt simple PCB wings. Lots of different ideas being passed back and forth.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 11 November 2019, 23:39:05
And I apologize you guys. I'm being a bad mod and belaboring a rabbit trail. Let's steer things back to airplane pictures. Feel free to start another thread if you want to talk more about wireless vehicle charging.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 November 2019, 00:08:06
It's fine, I'm sure nobody was
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/aircraft/images/4/46/Air_jas-39_gripen_top_smokewinders_lg1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111110093037)
about the conversation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 12 November 2019, 00:19:07
(http://www.salimbeti.com/aviation/images/equip/vfa103pilot.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 12 November 2019, 01:33:57
There was indeed some Gripen about jamming recently

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/416/92416/p1742386_main.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 November 2019, 02:25:07
in keeping with both the current and previous topics, the first type of aircraft to use combat datalink.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/AIRPOWER16_-_Air_to_Air_SK35C_Draken_%28color%29.jpg)

the J-35B/C's deployed in 1961 used the SAAB S7 FCS, which had an early digital datalink system that connected to the STRIL 60 ground radar network. this not only improved reaction times on interception, the datalink could feed the fighter targeting information.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 12 November 2019, 02:40:49
The Gripen was also used in Macross Delta as a Valkerie too.  Still can't get used to how skinny they are now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 12 November 2019, 05:00:00
It's real funny seeing a JAS 39 next to a J/A 37. It's clear who's the kid of the pair! ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 November 2019, 06:20:13
The Grippen, Viggen and the Draken are some of the best looking fighters out there. Pretty neat that a little "netural" country like Sweden can make such neat aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 November 2019, 09:03:55
It's funny how a company that can make such pretty fighters can make only dull and uninteresting cars. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 12 November 2019, 09:12:45
Don't say that to a SAAB car owner! Risk of severe burns! :D

Thought if they owned one of the early turbo models, they'll probably note that "interesting" was mostly in the Chinese sense... ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 12 November 2019, 10:21:09
Don't say that to a SAAB car owner! Risk of severe burns! :D

Yep! Never owned one myself, but I've got friends addicted to them. 'Real SAABs' (before they went under for the nth time) were amazingly engineered vehicles, with the same dedication to "doing it their way" that the aero-engineering side of the company had. Which notably caused substantial financial problems, when they decided that the instructions they were given by other companies that nominally owned them were "not good enough", and refused to carry out 'badge engineering' for the same reason.

"That's not the sat-nav that we specified!"
"No, it wasn't good enough, so we designed and built our own."
"But ... no wonder you're going bust!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 November 2019, 18:12:50
Well engineered yes. Much like Volkswagens and Volvos.

And all three are about as exciting as a bowl of oatmeal.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 12 November 2019, 18:22:28
The Gripen was also used in Macross Delta as a Valkerie too.  Still can't get used to how skinny they are now.

Really?
I missed a Macrosss!!!!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 12 November 2019, 19:12:04
Well engineered yes. Much like Volkswagens and Volvos.

And all three are about as exciting as a bowl of oatmeal.

Depends what your frames of reference are - here in the UK, we don't have much in the way of muscle cars to lust after, but the early models of VW Golf GTi were rather enthusiastic (and likely to end up occasionally airborne, which almost makes this relevant for the aviation thread), and the Volvo T5 was pretty daft. I'll try to a find an airframe photo for any future comments! Sorry!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 November 2019, 19:13:32
MacLarens are from the UK, aren't they?  ???

Sorry for the off topic bit there, but I HAD to ask...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 12 November 2019, 19:36:49
My dad almost crashed in a VW Beetle way back in the day due to its aerodynamics. IIRC it lifts off at about 110 mph?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 12 November 2019, 20:25:55
MacLarens are from the UK, aren't they?  ???

Sorry for the off topic bit there, but I HAD to ask...

Yep, MacLarens are - but they're a little outside the reach of most! While TV programmes make it look like every second backyard in the US has a big-block V8 just waiting for a garage to bring it back to life.

(https://saab.com/globalassets/gripen.com/heritage/saab_17a.jpg)

Have an early SAAB - the Saab 17 reconnaissance/bomber, from 1940.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 12 November 2019, 21:06:04
So, that's what happens when a Corsair, a Helldiver, and a B5N Kate go back in time and have a ménage à fou.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 November 2019, 22:29:22
My dad almost crashed in a VW Beetle way back in the day due to its aerodynamics. IIRC it lifts off at about 110 mph?

It can go that fast!?   :o


Downhill? A very steep hill? With a gale force tail wind?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 12 November 2019, 22:44:49
i can verify that an old beetles front end will go airborne at about 90
was driving 60 into a very windy storm once so effective wind speed was 80-90

i quickly backed down
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 November 2019, 23:04:00
Beetles weren't that aerodynamic, they were just that light.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 13 November 2019, 02:33:43
Beetles weren't that aerodynamic, they were just that light.


also nose-light with the engine in the back
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 13 November 2019, 05:59:25
AFAIK it was all of the above. The early SAAB cars had the same problems, actually. I think it came down to being designed by airplane engineers trying for minimal drag - going for the profile they knew best, a wing... ::)

But I think we might be going just a little OT here. Have a flying car! :)

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/5932b8_8fc5a378c3d741dca7110c99765e5b50~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_864,h_377,al_c,lg_1,q_80/5932b8_8fc5a378c3d741dca7110c99765e5b50~mv2.webp)

Taylor Aerocar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocar)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 13 November 2019, 08:35:30
Really?
I missed a Macrosss!!!!

I thought the Windermearian (or however you spell it) Valkeries were based off the Draken, not the Gripen?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 13 November 2019, 09:32:44
Draken, I had rechecked after, and am corrected. 

I have a finished kit of the officer version, as I preferred the head over the standard version, but preferred the wings of the standard.

If I could afford it, I'd have bought both kits and transplanted the head onto the other kit if possible.

I thought the Windermearian (or however you spell it) Valkeries were based off the Draken, not the Gripen?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 13 November 2019, 10:22:23
But I think we might be going just a little OT here. Have a flying car! :)

It's not a proper flying car unless it's an AMC Matador nailed to what were allegedly some Cessna parts, and being used by dashing assassin Scaramanga to escape a certain 'secret' agent renowned for telling everyone his name.

(https://medias.spotern.com/spots/w640/3/3152-1532336916.jpg)

(According to the sources I've seen, this could only manage a 500m hop, which was enough to appear to take off, and the aerial shots used a model. The prototype apparently killed two of the techs who had built and tested it.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 13 November 2019, 11:38:08
Well, the Aerocar does have the advantage of 1) being able to drive away with the whole "aircraft" (wings and tail fold into a trailer) and 2) actually being a working, existing, flying car. ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 13 November 2019, 12:54:05
Working might be too strong a word.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 13 November 2019, 13:17:07
At what point does it cease to be a flying car, and become a taxying airplane airplane with a car-shaped fuselage?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 November 2019, 13:39:28
Working might be too strong a word.

I do not know, that little yellow pusher looks like its got some decent altitude for that sort of contraption.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 13 November 2019, 13:59:09
Copied from http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/aerocar.htm (http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/aerocar.htm)

Quote
AEROCAR  PERFORMANCE
Top Speed ........Over 110 MPH
Cruising Speed ....Over 100 MPH
Rate of Climb (I st Min @ full load) ...Over 550 FPM

Service Ceiling @ full load ...Over 12,000 Ft,
Cruise Range .....Over 300 Miles
Landing Speed .... 50 MPH

Landing Run (with normal braking) ...300 Ft.
Take-off Run ..... 650 Ft.
Distance to Clear 50 ft. Obstacle .....1225 Ft.
Designed Road Speed (Engine red line)...67 MPH
Road Range .....Over 400 Miles
Fuel Consumption (Cruising)......8 GPH
Road Fuel Consumption ......18 MPG
Time to Change from Plane to Car ......Five Min.

So not terribly fast. Thought a modern one would probably be a lot more effective.

I'd say the #1 problem is road safety. You're just going to have to make the car way to late to survive a collision. :P But it was probably all right back in the '60s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 13 November 2019, 19:07:25
Well, the Aerocar does have the advantage of 1) being able to drive away with the whole "aircraft" (wings and tail fold into a trailer) and 2) actually being a working, existing, flying car. ;)

Fair points!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 13 November 2019, 20:06:23
I do not know, that little yellow pusher looks like its got some decent altitude for that sort of contraption.

The reason it never caught on was that while it could function as a car and a plane, it didn't function very well as either one and anyone who could afford one could probably also afford a standard car and a standard plane, which was ultimately more useful.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 13 November 2019, 21:12:24
I'm still trying to figure out how you get it through the dive-thru.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 13 November 2019, 22:15:45
The wings get folded back when you want to use it as a car.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 13 November 2019, 22:28:57
I'm still trying to figure out how you get it through the dive-thru.
I watched a documentary on that, titled The Fifth Element
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 14 November 2019, 01:23:48
AFAIK it was all of the above. The early SAAB cars had the same problems, actually. I think it came down to being designed by airplane engineers trying for minimal drag - going for the profile they knew best, a wing... ::)

But I think we might be going just a little OT here. Have a flying car! :)

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/5932b8_8fc5a378c3d741dca7110c99765e5b50~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_864,h_377,al_c,lg_1,q_80/5932b8_8fc5a378c3d741dca7110c99765e5b50~mv2.webp)

Taylor Aerocar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocar)

It looks like perfect plane for Mr. Bean.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 November 2019, 01:30:30
It looks like perfect plane for Mr. Bean.

Mmm, oh yes yes.


Teddy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 20 November 2019, 01:02:10
"Actually, ejecting from an aircraft is really dangerous"

"Hold my beer"

(Jump straight to 1:15 for action)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITDFlZR_CXQ
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 November 2019, 01:25:18
"Actually, ejecting from an aircraft is really dangerous"

"Hold my beer"

(Jump straight to 1:15 for action)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITDFlZR_CXQ
The little dead guy after hitting the water at 1:05 cracked me up, but...damn I'm glad we have 0-0 seats now.  Considering you've just gone through one significant emotional and kinetic event hitting the water, punching out into it and not freaking the hell out and drowning is probably worth a medal on its own.

Granted, the only real times I can see this coming into play is landing or takeoff fails, where you don't have power to get back into the air for whatever reason; anything faster than that and you're probably dead from hitting the water in the first place.  It does happen, of course, there's a few videos of things like that on youtube as well.  Still a hell of a thing to have to do after Poseidon just got his hands on you.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 20 November 2019, 01:39:24
Thing that gets me about that case, the pilot had just taken off from a carrier when he lost power. He knew the carrier was steaming up at him. So he waited, as the aircraft sank, until the carrier had passed overhead before ejecting underwater.

Balls of pure adamantium.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 20 November 2019, 01:46:19
There was also a case of A-6 which lost power at the take off and the crew ejected, wind carrying them right on the take off pad. There was lot of jokes about crashing into sea and not even getting feet wet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 20 November 2019, 02:00:55
Thing that gets me about that case, the pilot had just taken off from a carrier when he lost power. He knew the carrier was steaming up at him. So he waited, as the aircraft sank, until the carrier had passed overhead before ejecting underwater.

Balls of pure adamantium.
If I had the cojones to do that, I'd have a camera in the cockpit just to snapshot the props as they go by overhead.  THEN punch out.

Also is it just me or did anyone else hear "The airplane knows where it is at all times" in their head as they're showing the various ejection positions?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 November 2019, 10:11:19
I know there are a few cases where a malfunction happened from a cat shot and pilots used the WIGE to stay aloft until the jet could generate normal lift.  First time I ever heard about the air compression under the wing keeping a plane aloft, but I understand that could be never wracking because if you fouled up you would be like a Yugo stuck on the tracks as the freight train was barreling down the tracks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 20 November 2019, 13:32:35
There was also a case of A-6 which lost power at the take off and the crew ejected, wind carrying them right on the take off pad. There was lot of jokes about crashing into sea and not even getting feet wet.
Just gather up your 'chute and walk off the flight deck like a boss.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 20 November 2019, 14:49:33
Just gather up your 'chute and walk off the flight deck like a boss.


If it weren't for the noise and respect I would have for safety on the flight deck (I believe the most dangerous work environment on the planet) I'd be tempted to walk up to someone and ask for another plane to have another go
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 20 November 2019, 15:25:51
Walk off like a boss, and then start dealing with the paperwork on the incident report ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 20 November 2019, 17:07:07
When a carrier is conducting flight ops, it's steaming into the wind at high speed. I suspect the first order of business for the ejectees is to not get dragged into something hazardous/clear off the ship by 50 kts of wind...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 20 November 2019, 20:42:15
And that's one of the reasons why we have angled flight decks...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 November 2019, 23:16:32
I really like the Gripen fighter just such a cool fighter. Would of been neat to see the Carrier Version of that plane!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 November 2019, 02:32:49
File under 'Things you don't see every day'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8HMPMYL19E

Dragon Lady doing carrier ops.  I mean, it's not the usual issue; the thing's got a stall speed that would make a DHC-6 blush but it's just a little...delicate.  Still managed arrested landings aboard Ranger as well as what could be assisted or unassisted takeoffs; can't really tell from the film.  No audio, and I'm REALLY wondering what that 'ejection through locked canopy' moment was about.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 November 2019, 04:44:41
Pretty amazing, but I wouldn't try that in any kind of weather...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 November 2019, 08:15:20
I really like the Gripen fighter just such a cool fighter. Would of been neat to see the Carrier Version of that plane!

They tried: https://saab.com/air/gripen-fighter-system/gripen/gripen-maritime/ (https://saab.com/air/gripen-fighter-system/gripen/gripen-maritime/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 21 November 2019, 08:26:02
They tried: https://saab.com/air/gripen-fighter-system/gripen/gripen-maritime/ (https://saab.com/air/gripen-fighter-system/gripen/gripen-maritime/)
IIRC India still has it "on a list" of possible fighters for their CVs, given that all their current planes have some kind of problem. Brazil, of course, doesn't have a carrier for them any longer... ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 21 November 2019, 10:45:36
yeah, the market is pretty small. France, America, russia, and china all prefer to design their own. and most of the others have decided to either transition to using their carriers as rotary wing platforms primarily, or prefer to buy established designs from one of the big-4 mentioned above.
since most nations don't really need carriers either i suspect this won't change anytime soon.

honestly i think that if SAAB built a full VTOL jet their odds would be better.. the F-35 isn't, so a lot of the countries with older carriers that ran Harriers just went pure rotary wing, since the harrier was the last true full VTOL jet platform, and refits to run STOVL or pure STOL would be either extremely expensive or outright impossible due to the age of the ships. (the F-35 price point and the many continuing teething issues it has had don't help either)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 November 2019, 11:40:07
Yellow should be the color scheme for the F-35 . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 21 November 2019, 15:14:41
Yellow should be the color scheme for the F-35 . . .
Are you thinking like a taxicab yellow or perhaps more of a color more in the citrus family?  >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 November 2019, 15:49:06
Citrus . . . definitely citrus.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 November 2019, 18:06:33
I seem to recall that particular topic being on the mods "don't" list...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 November 2019, 20:10:18
Same.

So instead, here's an F6F-5N, which was a Hellcat variant that had been equipped with radar and 20mm cannons for night combat.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/F6F-5N_NAS_Jax_1944-45.jpg/220px-F6F-5N_NAS_Jax_1944-45.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 November 2019, 20:11:31
Nice!  How many did they make?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 November 2019, 21:02:34
I'm not sure.  I believe it was a post-WW2 variant.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 November 2019, 21:04:36
Ah, not that many then... Jets came in pretty quickly...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 November 2019, 00:48:33
Ah, not that many then... Jets came in pretty quickly...

Not quite for carriers . . . IIRC it was a interesting strategic imbalance . . . carrier planes could pop up wherever b/c of the mobility of the airfield but lacked the ability to launch jets.  Fixed airbases could rapidly respond to a carrier plane incursion b/c of the speed difference but it was easier for carrier planes to degrade the nearest airfields.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 November 2019, 04:28:32
The first jet landing and take off on a carrier was apparently in 1945, so it wasn't that long...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 22 November 2019, 04:53:12
The first jet landing and take off on a carrier was apparently in 1945, so it wasn't that long...


I'm taking this all from Wikipedia so am aware it may be completely wrong but...


The first jets were flying between 1939 and 1941 in prototype form, the first jet fighters were introduced to service in 1944 - all of this was on the background of active wartime development speeds


However, by 1945 the impetus for improving carrier based aviation was gone - Japan was crippled and Germany was not an issue for carrier based fighters


Early jets struggled with reliability (for example needing overhaul every 80-150 hours) and power at lower speeds was poor with slower acceleration than a prop driven engine to speed the aircraft along the short flight deck and up up and away with or without catapult assistance
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 22 November 2019, 05:26:01
There's actually video

A deHavilland Vampire on HMS Ocean. Seas look none too calm.

https://youtu.be/PNoUBil7A3c
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 22 November 2019, 05:35:23
Interestingly, the problems now seem reversed, while take off can be sorted - see this vid of an F-35B taking off from HMS Queen Elizabeth

https://youtu.be/OM3qQUVGN5s


the landing is harder


https://youtu.be/jP0rUkDz_Fg


because on the F-35B you don't have wires or a barrier or a great deal of speed


Landing with arrestor wires is common even on land - for example the Tornado in RAF service used them - let alone on CATOBAR carriers - although the Haynes Manual on the Tornado did comment that the tailhook on that aircraft looks wimpy and fragile compared to the ones on naval aircraft like the F-14 or F/A-18s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 22 November 2019, 06:30:26
There's actually video

A deHavilland Vampire on HMS Ocean. Seas look none too calm.

And, of course it's Captain 'Winkle' Brown. I really should have known that it would be.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 22 November 2019, 07:24:13
IIRC India still has it "on a list" of possible fighters for their CVs, given that all their current planes have some kind of problem. Brazil, of course, doesn't have a carrier for them any longer... ::)
Speaking of which:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sao_Paulo_carrier_forward_flight_deck_2003.jpg

One year ago today the Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo, formerly the French aircraft carrier Foch was decommissioned after found to be uneconomical to refit and repair.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 22 November 2019, 07:33:23
Speaking of which:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sao_Paulo_carrier_forward_flight_deck_2003.jpg

One year ago today the Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo, formerly the French aircraft carrier Foch was decommissioned after found to be uneconomical to refit and repair.
I honestly don't think Sao Paulo has ever been "operational" for more than a couple of months at a time
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 22 November 2019, 08:34:55
Speaking of which:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Sao_Paulo_carrier_forward_flight_deck_2003.jpg

One year ago today the Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo, formerly the French aircraft carrier Foch was decommissioned after found to be uneconomical to refit and repair.

Skyhawks in the hizzouse!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 22 November 2019, 09:43:24
I honestly don't think Sao Paulo has ever been "operational" for more than a couple of months at a time
That's true, but they kept on trying until the plug to pulled.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 November 2019, 12:22:48
The first jets were flying between 1939 and 1941 in prototype form, the first jet fighters were introduced to service in 1944 - all of this was on the background of active wartime development speeds

However, by 1945 the impetus for improving carrier based aviation was gone - Japan was crippled and Germany was not an issue for carrier based fighters

Early jets struggled with reliability (for example needing overhaul every 80-150 hours) and power at lower speeds was poor with slower acceleration than a prop driven engine to speed the aircraft along the short flight deck and up up and away with or without catapult assistance

There's actually video

A deHavilland Vampire on HMS Ocean. Seas look none too calm.

https://youtu.be/PNoUBil7A3c

The USN's first carrier jet, the F9F Panther, was cleared for carrier operations in '49
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/F9F-5_VF-111_CVA-39_1953.jpeg)

 . . . with modifications to a swept wing design to combat MiGs in the Korean War, but it never met its intend opponent.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/F9F-6_VF-24_CVA-9_1955.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 22 November 2019, 12:36:53
And, of course it's Captain 'Winkle' Brown. I really should have known that it would be.

Just finished "Wings of the Luftwaffe", which is his book about flying captured German aircraft - highly recommended.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 22 November 2019, 19:30:05
Just finished "Wings of the Luftwaffe", which is his book about flying captured German aircraft - highly recommended.

Ta for the tip!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 November 2019, 19:56:23
I consider even '49 to be "not that long"...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ghost0402 on 22 November 2019, 20:54:48
Ah, not that many then... Jets came in pretty quickly...
1500 or so and they came into service late 1944.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 November 2019, 20:56:48
Jets yes... carrier based ones?  A little longer, but still not that much...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 November 2019, 21:07:50
The article I read said that the Hellcat stayed in service as a night fighter until 54.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 November 2019, 21:09:07
The Sky Raider was still active during Vietnam, but we had jets well before '54 as Kidd pointed out.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 22 November 2019, 22:15:18
Piston engine planes sipped gas while turbojets chugged gas. The Skyraiders were great at staying on station where the jets had a struggle with that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 22 November 2019, 23:25:46
And additional bonus is that a radial engine like the Skyraider had tends to weather damage a little better than many others.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 25 November 2019, 08:48:08
And additional bonus is that a radial engine like the Skyraider had tends to weather damage a little better than many others.
Yeah, the radiators on P-51s didn't do so well with ground fire...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 25 November 2019, 10:51:58
I want to say the props in use in the Korean War still scored a few air to air kills.

From what I was able to find the UK sent the HMS Unicorn as part of UN forces, and the first carrier on site was the only (??) in the Pacific, the USS Valley Forge.  She had to steam from the West Coast, since apparently she shifted from Oahu to San Diego in '49.

And what looks like a Korean War era picture since it appears to be Panthers on the cats-
(http://www.hullnumber.com/p_photos/CV-45.image.1000534.jpg)

One of the UK planes involved was the Hawker Sea Fury, this one clearly a Navy bird from our Aussie friends-
(http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/aircraft/Sea_Fury.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 25 November 2019, 20:58:24
History Guy covered the AVRO Arrow today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4z5-l7u2Uo
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: qc mech3 on 25 November 2019, 22:51:29
In an episode of the Canadian Antique roadshow, a woman brough some memorabilia owned by her father: blueprints and various documents binders (specs and requests) of the Arrow! Her father worked on the project and like all the other employees, simply took all he could when the Avro plant closed. He told his daughter that the bosses didn't care and the security helped those taking tools with them. The appraiser told the woman, the government didn't even kept their copies of her documents so what she had was priceless.  :(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 November 2019, 04:09:09
I hope she hooked up with some of the Canadian historians and got copies of everything made.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 November 2019, 04:42:31
Priceless indeed! 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 27 November 2019, 11:28:40
I want to say the props in use in the Korean War still scored a few air to air kills.
The last of the old will always be better than the first of the new.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 November 2019, 11:54:49
Sea Fury some of the late great piston engine fighters of the day that outclassed the early jets. To bad it came just a little to late. The Bearcat was piston engine awesome also. Seen the Bearcat at airshows, I think they could of flown circles around the P51s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 November 2019, 12:24:08
Here is a before Thanksgiving after Thanksgiving plane style for the people that are celebrating Thursday.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 27 November 2019, 13:06:15
The last of the old will always be better than the first of the new.
That's a very good point.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 27 November 2019, 16:38:14
With the caveat of veteran pilots, yes.  Nuggets vs. nuggets?  The new will win more often than not.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 06 December 2019, 07:46:05
Mosquitos attack German ships in Norwegian fjord with rockets

I don't think I've seen more scenic pew-pew footage, ever!

Shooty bits start 0:48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCMSBwwFJw4
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 06 December 2019, 16:36:43
Certainly daring, but "every ship left burning" sounds a bit less than any "sunk"...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 07 December 2019, 03:36:56
Torpedos and skip bombing were out of question due to flak layout and they couldn't hang around to see how many will sink.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 December 2019, 12:55:44
https://youtu.be/MQU1f_bgPFE

Swiss Mirage IIISs doing their thing in the alps, apparently under "what's an altitude restriction?" flight rules.  Some gorgeous stuff!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 December 2019, 16:15:47
https://youtu.be/MQU1f_bgPFE

Swiss Mirage IIISs doing their thing in the alps, apparently under "what's an altitude restriction?" flight rules.  Some gorgeous stuff!
England has a stretch of mountains in wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_Loop) where the RAF can fly their stuff fast and low for training, wouldn't be surprised if the Swiss don;t have something similar. especially since with their geography, they'd really need to train for terrain following.

i'm not sure where the US trains for such, but we have enough large military zones in the western half of the states that there ought to be at least one.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 December 2019, 17:43:13
There's an air base near Klamath Falls, Oregon.  Wouldn't be surprised if they do something in the Siskiyous or another mountain range down there.  Of course, the west coast has mountains running from Canada to Mexico so finding something wouldn't be hard.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 December 2019, 18:21:16
https://youtu.be/MQU1f_bgPFE

Swiss Mirage IIISs doing their thing in the alps, apparently under "what's an altitude restriction?" flight rules.  Some gorgeous stuff!
That's one heck of a hard "hard deck"!  Nice gun work, too...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 December 2019, 22:52:20
There's something to be said for ruggedness of an airframe when this gets fished out after some months and restored into flying service.  And yes, it hit the water at speed, and after an ejection, so you can imagine the damage would have to be pretty bad usually...nah, just get a rope and a towel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 14 December 2019, 20:41:55
Speaking of funny looking aircraft... The Britten-Norman Trislander

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/G-FTSE_Trislander_Aurigny_Air_Services_%287003405361%29.jpg/1280px-G-FTSE_Trislander_Aurigny_Air_Services_%287003405361%29.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Britten-Norman_BN-2A_Mk3-2_Trislander%2C_Aurigny_Air_Services_AN0526073.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 14 December 2019, 20:47:39
That looks like at least two different airplanes were cut apart and then glued together while the people doing it were drunk.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 December 2019, 05:32:10
The Twin engine version called the Islander didn't look as odd. It does looks weird to see a 3rd engine on the tail for a prop.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 December 2019, 17:01:15
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-s-x-59-quiet-supersonic-research-aircraft-cleared-for-final-assembly

(https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/thumbnails/image/landing_001_photo_credit_lockheed_martin_1.jpg?itok=n-JkTyqM)

That thing looks mach 5 or 6 capable, with the needle shape...I mean, there's no way it has the thrust for it but you'd need to hit that kind of speed before you push the wingtips into the shock envelope.  I dunno whether to call it the Needle or the Stiletto.

Also, interesting that they're reviving the idea of supersonic transport over land.  Go NASA!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 17 December 2019, 17:41:57
Go NASA indeed!  Honestly, I always thought the solution to complaints about sonic booms was to move out of the flight path...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 December 2019, 21:22:53
Go NASA indeed!  Honestly, I always thought the solution to complaints about sonic booms was to move out of the flight path...
If only you could...

Oh and that's not even peak air travel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Orin J. on 18 December 2019, 00:31:45
If only you could...

Oh and that's not even peak air travel.

 :o  ....air traffic control doesn't get nearly enough thanks for what they do.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 December 2019, 04:34:32
That picture has a scale problem...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 December 2019, 16:39:11
That's just zoomed way out on FlightAware; it's a live track of every aircraft with registered flight plans - basically every commercial bird in the air and the occasional military and civilian aircraft.  And by live I mean I can hear a jet go over my apartment, call up the Lincoln area, and see what flight is arriving at the local airport and where it is.  (Seriously, there was an Embraer that landed here with a really weird resonance in the engines, I suspect it downchecked for maintenance after)  You can get position, altitude, velocity, all of that for the entire flight as well, it's pretty crazy.

Basically it's the entire global air traffic control system that you can watch anytime you like.  And to show just how nutbar it gets for flight density...here's the NYC-DC corridor as of 1635EST.  Highlighted is an Embraer ERJ from Piedmont Airlines at 22,000 feet, 361kts, heading from Philly to Toronto.  On a random Tuesday afternoon, just that little piece of the sky.

Flightaware is freakin cool, man.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 18 December 2019, 21:56:52
there a reason you didn't include a link?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 December 2019, 22:44:19
My point was that those icons are vastly larger than actual aircraft, and will be unless you zoom WAY in.  There's a LOT of empty sky out there, even at maximum flight density.  The sky may not be as big as SPACE, but it's still pretty darn big.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 19 December 2019, 01:11:21
Of course they are much larger, if they were of real size you would have to zoom in to 1:20.000 to see anything, which would make it impossible to see anything on national or even state scale.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2019, 04:37:29
And that means it's not as crowded as it looks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 19 December 2019, 08:46:25
Traffic controllers would disagree.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2019, 16:16:14
Traffic controllers cease caring when the traffic leaves the metropolitan area.  The US (not to mention the planet) is a BIG place.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 19 December 2019, 16:44:45
Nope. I forget the exact number, but once you real a certain altitude, ALL air traffic in the US is monitored by ATC. Pretty much the purview of airliners and other pressurized planes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2019, 16:46:42
Which leaves all the small private planes (at lower altitude) on their own...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 19 December 2019, 16:47:54
Traffic controllers cease caring when the traffic leaves the metropolitan area.  The US (not to mention the planet) is a BIG place.
Things can go very wrong of ATC doesn't keep track of things everywhere... (https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Mid-Air_Collision#Accidents_and_Incidents) :'(
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 19 December 2019, 16:54:08
Which leaves all the small private planes (at lower altitude) on their own...

...yes? Doesn't change the fact that at one altitude or another, ATC is nationwide.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2019, 17:00:25
I think we may mean different things by "ATC".  Sure, the ADIZ is monitored.  Doesn't mean everyone is under ground control everywhere.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 December 2019, 17:45:36
I think we may mean different things by "ATC".  Sure, the ADIZ is monitored.  Doesn't mean everyone is under ground control everywhere.

Pilot/flight-instructor here. I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's a bit afield of the original point about icons, but just to establish common understanding:

- Controlled airspace is most commonly defined above 500ft agl, though there are local differences where the floor is (see class E vs class G).
- ATC is the institution granted control over most of this, sometimes in coordination with defense authority (particular radar approach control installations and restricted airspace).
- ATC is divided into three parts: tower (including ground), approach/departure, and enroute control. All are coordinated through a traffic management program that very much cares about enroute flights as they'll eventually be at terminal airspace. Hence national flow-control restrictions in yet another command center that sometimes keeps frustrated passengers stuck in airplanes on the ground.
- Private air traffic counts too. Mostly if its on an instrument flight plan, but controllers do keep an eye and want to keep an eye on VFR aircraft squawking 1200.
- There's some exceptions, notably glider traffic and vintage aircraft without electrical systems, but they have internal best practices and guidance about how they should handle themselves.

That's my training, understanding, and practical experience.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 December 2019, 17:51:55
And there have been collisions before, very famously the PSA-Cessna high-altitude passenger swap back in my hometown of San Diego in 1978.  Both of those planes were under ATC control, even with the light plane just puttering around.  And while it's not the US, in Britain even the hot-air balloons are given orders to do things - there's a bit of a scary/funny clip from Top Gear where James May is getting orders for where he should be going in a balloon...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 19 December 2019, 17:55:06
Yeah . . . Bedwyr's third point is really strong, I toured a facility when the FCC was trying to recruit controllers from my MOS.  Hand off between the three parts can be tricky by what ATC controllers told me- delays snowball, check the details next week just to see it.  The FCC seems to always be recruiting controllers, not sure what their pass rate is at the nearby school. 

If it flies, its tracked . . . why do you think the smuggling flights come in NOE to land in the swamps with the drugs?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2019, 17:59:17
Just to clarify my original point, there's WAY more empty sky than airplanes, and that website gives the opposite impression.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 December 2019, 18:06:56
Just to clarify my original point, there's WAY more empty sky than airplanes, and that website gives the opposite impression.

Oh yeah, big sky theory is still an active principle. We still use it in airspace evaluation for UAV collision risk. And I agree that the website gives a distorted impression of airspace busy-ness. The reality is that the terminal areas, especially in the wider northeast, are super busy and the plains and mountain region quite a bit less.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 December 2019, 18:10:04
And there have been collisions before, very famously the PSA-Cessna high-altitude passenger swap back in my hometown of San Diego in 1978.  Both of those planes were under ATC control, even with the light plane just puttering around.  And while it's not the US, in Britain even the hot-air balloons are given orders to do things - there's a bit of a scary/funny clip from Top Gear where James May is getting orders for where he should be going in a balloon...

That's actually part of the history of aviation law and technology that you'll find in the annals of why the FAA is called the tombstone agency. Quite a few changes were made after that accident, including the first implementation of TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system). Subsequent systems (RCAS, ACAS) and the UAV detect-and-avoid systems, some of which I've worked on, stem from this beginning.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2019, 18:14:19
Oh yeah, big sky theory is still an active principle. We still use it in airspace evaluation for UAV collision risk. And I agree that the website gives a distorted impression of airspace busy-ness. The reality is that the terminal areas, especially in the wider northeast, are super busy and the plains and mountain region quite a bit less.
Thank you, kind sir!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 19 December 2019, 22:10:43
My point on the Flightaware stuff was in regards to sonic booms and NASA's work in abating them, and that if even a small fraction of the aircraft overhead were supersonic that'd still be a LOT of boom.  Or thud, if NASA can pull it off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 December 2019, 22:38:56
My point on the Flightaware stuff was in regards to sonic booms and NASA's work in abating them, and that if even a small fraction of the aircraft overhead were supersonic that'd still be a LOT of boom.  Or thud, if NASA can pull it off.

Perfectly fair point. Pressure waves do go pretty far.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 20 December 2019, 03:07:59
Honestly, the laws of physics make the economics of SSTs pretty damn unfeasible in general.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 20 December 2019, 06:29:39
Honestly, the laws of physics make the economics of SSTs pretty damn unfeasible in general.
While I agree in general, very long-distance routes might benefit due to flying at very high altitude.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 December 2019, 09:54:44
Well . . . is that going to be more economical than sub-orbital hops for expedited transit?  I always figured that was part of why Branson was experimenting with spacecraft under his Virgin brand.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 20 December 2019, 11:14:08
Suborbital means a pretty long flight at high speed up to space(ish). A run that will typically be nearest to any large population centers. So reducing sonic booms could definitely benefit those as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 21 December 2019, 16:58:50
Having just spent a big of the last week into and out of both a Class B and a couple Class C airspaces for the job, things do get really interesting. At least there I have a people telling me "yeah you have a 737 coming in over the top of you.  caution for wake turbulence.  and please do your job and get out my airspace as soon as you can"

Where it gets really interesting is around a lot of the class E airports (no control tower) where everyone is on their best behavior to call and advise other traffic.  Where a lot of these 10 years ago had nearly 0 activity, the recent economic boom and call for pilots has made things "interesting." Things like ADS-B really help as I can keep it up on my ipad and know what is going on ahead of me. but there have still been some times where I was (too) engrossed in something that I needed to be reporting on the ground and looked up and said [the no no word].


My point on the Flightaware stuff was in regards to sonic booms and NASA's work in abating them, and that if even a small fraction of the aircraft overhead were supersonic that'd still be a LOT of boom.  Or thud, if NASA can pull it off.

Getting my medical i was talking to a guy who is head of an operations department for a business jet maker.  and he was telling me that for business jets they pretty much can solve the sonic boom part by using a aero spike on the front of the plane. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 December 2019, 00:10:48
Scratch one Su-57.  Damn shame, it's a gorgeous plane.

https://ren.tv/news/v-rossii/640540-v-mchs-podtverdili-informatsiiu-o-padenii-su-57-v-khabarovskom-krae

Link's in Russian; summary: the state officially confirms the crash of an Su-57; the pilot ejected and was rescued by helicopter.  Crash site is 111km from Dzemgi Airfield.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 24 December 2019, 02:16:10
brand new plane just barely out of the prototype stage (and that period appears to have been rushed some as well), a few accidents are to be expected, sadly.
at least the pilot is ok.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 December 2019, 17:39:00
Something to kick around and see if we can get a debate going.  You're a small, not poor, but not super-rich country in the cold war.  It's the mid 1960s and your air defenses consist of subsonic Hawker Hunters.  Time to get some speed on, but you have a tight budget and coverage requirements that rule out only having a couple squadrons of big budget do-it-all aircraft.

Saab 35 Draken...
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/3b/35/8c3b35e75e76d1b7d148bb5b6b563f85.jpg)

Dassault Mirage IIIC
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Dassault_Mirage_IIIC%2C_France_-_Air_Force_AN0695826.jpg)

Both jets are rugged, Mach 2 performers that are praised for their maneuverability and dogfighting potential.  They both run dual 30mm revolver cannons (practically the same gun) and can carry 3 or 4 missiles into the fight.  The Mirage has better range, the Draken a better max altitude.  Assume your production schedules can be handled by the factory however you like; which aircraft do you prefer?  It doesn't have to be better but I'd like to hear out the arguments of the arrowheads.

Side note, yes I'm deliberately ignoring the American or Soviet designs; keeping this one in the second-tier stuff.  MiG-21 zerg spam is certainly a thing, but I'm trying to avoid that a little.  And the Americans are too much in love with their .50 and 20mm guns, and won't rearm with the bigger 30s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 24 December 2019, 17:42:28
Geography matters here...  Hard to give an answer without knowing it...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 24 December 2019, 17:46:25
Wasn't the Mirage III more widely adopted?  That would mean more plentiful parts, and less likely to be stranded with a dead-end unsupported design a couple of decades later.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 December 2019, 17:48:35
Geography matters here...  Hard to give an answer without knowing it...
Take Bulgaria for a home country.  Black Sea to the east, Serbs and Macedonians and mountains (oh my) to the west, Danube lowlands to the north, Greek mountain terrain to the southwest and to the southeast lowlands lies Turkey.  Assume you're buying 140 airplanes for your major air superiority needs.
Wasn't the Mirage III more widely adopted?  That would mean more plentiful parts, and less likely to be stranded with a dead-end unsupported design a couple of decades later.
Point to consider, though the Swedes certainly did a fine job keeping Drakens around until 1999.  The French did do better in the export market, as far as customer base goes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 24 December 2019, 17:56:22
For Bulgaria, I'd go with the Draken.  Long range strike isn't really their thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 24 December 2019, 23:20:22
Something to kick around and see if we can get a debate going.  You're a small, not poor, but not super-rich country in the cold war.  It's the mid 1960s and your air defenses consist of subsonic Hawker Hunters.  Time to get some speed on, but you have a tight budget and coverage requirements that rule out only having a couple squadrons of big budget do-it-all aircraft.

Saab 35 Draken...
or
Dassault Mirage IIIC

Draken
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 24 December 2019, 23:42:20
Draken
Okay, why?

For Bulgaria, I'd go with the Draken.  Long range strike isn't really their thing.
Fair point, it's a small country as well - the longest distance corner to corner is 530km.  You won't be traveling far to a battlefield.

Air defense is still the main role, your ground attack is already taken care of.  The Draken does have the advantage of short runways, but does the Mirage's dogfighting ability completely trounce it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 25 December 2019, 03:58:50
That's the kind of story that ends with a lot of F-104s and some new jokes about lawn darts in the local language
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 25 December 2019, 04:23:33
I have no idea how the air-to-air capabilities compare... But the relative number of exports were mostly a result of the very stringent Swedish arms export laws. It was barely acceptable to sell to the Danes (with them being NATO members).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 25 December 2019, 06:54:18
Draken gets my vote fwiw
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 25 December 2019, 06:58:21
Bulgaria does have mountains, so the higher ceiling could be a factor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 25 December 2019, 09:05:53
Draken
Okay, why?
I'm dealing with limited area of operations.  Not like I have to deploy long range, I have a higher ceiling and climb rate, but yes I lose out at top speed.
plus I just love the plane so it got bonus points that way 8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 December 2019, 10:37:13
I like the Draken more than the Mirage 3.  I think the Mirage is more battle proven as with Israel using them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 25 December 2019, 11:38:59
Mirage III for me, extra range is not just how far can you go, but also how long can you stay on patrol and maximum operational height is not all that important. It also has good upgrade potential and spare parts are easier to aquire.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 December 2019, 18:47:48
Loiter and patrol time is a big consideration, yeah.  And the IIICs are still in service in Pakistan, so the Mirage is definitely a very long-lived airframe; the first flights were in 1956! 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 December 2019, 19:40:11
For a moment, I thought you'd said "IIC's".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 December 2019, 19:57:00
For a moment, I thought you'd said "IIC's".
How dare you refuse my colorful batchall!

(https://theaviationgeekclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ATAC-Mirage-F1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 25 December 2019, 20:29:48
How dare you refuse my colorful batchall!

(https://theaviationgeekclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ATAC-Mirage-F1.jpg)

I'd say just do what the Swiss do as they did replace Hawker Hunters and DeHavilland Vampires/Venoms, but it seems like they had a bit of a procurement scandal with the Mirage IIIs in the 1960s, and later supplanted them with F-5s in the 1970s.

Also, as Israel and Singapore showed with their Skyhawks, it's perfectly possible to swap the M39 20mm guns for 30mm DEFA guns

(https://acesflyinghigh.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/mirage-iiic-swiss-af.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/J-3005.jpg/1280px-J-3005.jpg)

Actually, I think the general rule of procurement is that the winner is the one that provides the best kickbacks, and in the 1960s, I think we know what that means...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Dutch_F-104G_Starfighter_D-8053.jpg/1280px-Dutch_F-104G_Starfighter_D-8053.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Canadair_CF-104_12887_and_12845_RCAF_%28mfr_35300_via_RJF%29_%2816515161734%29.jpg)

At least they look nice in stripes:
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/104838_CF-104_838_EDAL_04aug77_EricTammer.jpg)
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/104756_Tiger_UppHeyford_03jul76.jpg)
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/104838_CF-104_838_EDAL_04aug77_EricTammer.jpg)
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/FX52_tiger_taxy_KB_mar79_RobLoonstra.jpg)
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/104862_Cambrai_23jun79_EricTammer.jpg)
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/104761_Bitburg_13jun81.jpg)
(https://www.i-f-s.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/104796_TWM82_1982X.jpg)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/d4c525_e29dc442be294e90b73ca92b65e77570.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_552,al_c,q_90/d4c525_e29dc442be294e90b73ca92b65e77570.webp)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Deadborder on 25 December 2019, 22:22:52
J-35 Draken for me just because it looks cooler
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: David CGB on 25 December 2019, 23:48:21
J-35 Draken for me just because it looks cooler
Yes it does, would love to see how it would look all camouflaged up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 26 December 2019, 00:06:44
Well, the Draken has an extra hardpoint and reportedly amazing climb rate.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2019, 13:35:01
As transitional years, aircraft of the 1920s and early 1930s were... pretty damn transitional.

Handley Page H.P.42/45
(https://allenontravel.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/handley-page-hp-42-03.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Handley_Page_HP42_%28cropped%29.jpg/1280px-Handley_Page_HP42_%28cropped%29.jpg)

Speaking of which, the De Havilland DH91 Albatross is one of the most gorgeous I've ever seen in the air... and terribly ungainly on the ground.
(https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/heritageimage/webImage/20170422132544/1434595472491.jpg)
(https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/heritageimage/webImage/20170422133631/1434595472936.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/IWM-CH14317-DH91-Albatross-205210634.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 29 December 2019, 13:37:16
Must have been interesting trying to do a 3 point landing with that? "I'm looking straight up!"; "good, it means you're about to touch down"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2019, 14:41:00
The most hilarious thing about that Handley Page is that the smoking section might just have been isolated enough from the "forward saloon" to make a difference...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 29 December 2019, 18:12:04
The most hilarious thing about that Handley Page is that the smoking section might just have been isolated enough from the "forward saloon" to make a difference...

Looks like there are doors too, to help with that. I like the way that the main fuselage is metal-skinned, while the aft is fabric covered.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2019, 21:36:20
The most hilarious thing about that Handley Page is that the smoking section might just have been isolated enough from the "forward saloon" to make a difference...

More airliners could use a cocktail bar, but I don't see how it could possibly pay for the seats it would displace, let alone the cost for a bartender.

Interwar British airliners were largely:

1) Built in small numbers, even for the period (The Handley Page came in 2 versions, and only 4 copies of each were made. The DH.91 had a production run of 7, including 2 prototypes)
2) Really friggin' weird

Take the Vickers Vulcan... (8 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Vickers_Vulcan_Type_61_G-EBET_%28148227972%29_%28tight_crop%2C_white_balanced%2C_grayscale%29.jpg)

Or how about the seating position of this prototype English Electric Wren motorized glider? (still in flyable condition in the Shuttleworth collection)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Ee_wren_Shuttleworth_1.jpg/1280px-Ee_wren_Shuttleworth_1.jpg)

Vickers Victoria transport/troop carrier (97 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Vickers_Victoria_ExCC.jpg)

If French is more your style, check out the Potez IX (30 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Potez_IX_L%27A%C3%A9ronautique_December_1922.jpg/1280px-Potez_IX_L%27A%C3%A9ronautique_December_1922.jpg)


Or American? The Boeing Model 80 looks a lot like a biplane version of the Ju 52 or Ford Trimotor
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/BoeingModel80A-1.jpg/1280px-BoeingModel80A-1.jpg)

Boeing 314 Clipper (12 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/BOAC_Boeing_Model_314A_Clipper_on_Lagos_Lagoon.jpg/1280px-BOAC_Boeing_Model_314A_Clipper_on_Lagos_Lagoon.jpg)


Some more prolific interwar airliners:

Boeing 247 (75 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Boeing%2C_247.jpg/1280px-Boeing%2C_247.jpg)

Ford Trimotor (199 made)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.flitetest.com/article_images/full/ford-tri-motor-eaa-jpg_1499705459.jpg)

Douglas DC-2 (198 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/LOT_DC-2_LOC_matpc_22394u.jpg/1280px-LOT_DC-2_LOC_matpc_22394u.jpg)

Short Empire (42 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/IWM-CH14013_Short_Empire_AFKZ_205210604.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 30 December 2019, 01:58:41
(https://i1.wp.com/knuckledraggin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/spiffy-gifs-daily-25-5.gif?resize=444%2C250)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 December 2019, 03:11:31
Psiho, is that from the 360 video on youtube?  It looks familiar.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 30 December 2019, 05:21:27
Those planes are too close for comfort. It looked like the wingtip almost touched the cockpit of the furthest aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Kidd on 30 December 2019, 05:34:01
Imagine you and your buddies driving in close formation, at 370kph, down a curving three dimensional road...!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 December 2019, 10:37:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6SsB3JYqQg

Here's the video I mentioned.  Click and drag the POV around in the video window, it's 360 with a lot of elevation so you can look up and to the sides and see everything.

Try not to pee yourself in terror at how close and precise those planes are.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 30 December 2019, 11:12:19
More airliners could use a cocktail bar, but I don't see how it could possibly pay for the seats it would displace, let alone the cost for a bartender.

There used to be one on the top deck of the 747, if I recall correctly from the old advertising photos.

Interwar British airliners were largely:
...
2) Really friggin' weird

Take the Vickers Vulcan... (8 made)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Vickers_Vulcan_Type_61_G-EBET_%28148227972%29_%28tight_crop%2C_white_balanced%2C_grayscale%29.jpg)

That is truly wonderful!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 December 2019, 11:58:21
Yeah, the Vulcan is just nuts . . .

Going back to Mirage vs Drakon . . . is the decision point after the Mirage has proven itself in combat against Warsaw Pact designs?  Bluntly, if you are positing a Bulgaria not part of the Pact then having a 'this is how you do it' set of studies for your pilots is pretty good.  Flip side is, the Pact pilots should have empirical data about how to defeat a Mirage.

Then it comes down to rough field capability, and the shorter take off of the Drakon is better IF I have a lot of little fields (or you know, well built two lane highways . . . ) scattered about to support air defense with refueling/re-arm detachments that can scatter.  Range will not matter as much for air defense if I can have a little field with refueling capabilities in a 20 square mile area.  I may not be able to fully service the aircraft but short of mid-air refueling (and when did that roll out again?) its the best way to keep cycling aircraft and negate strikes at the main airfields.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 31 December 2019, 12:59:44
Is Bulgaria part of NATO? That would change a lot of the assumptions too...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 31 December 2019, 13:02:36
I was just supposing they were independent.

IF you did go with the Drakon & small fields spread all over as a defense doctrine, IMO it should also be a economic policy to make the small airfields pay for themselves w/commercial traffic though I am not sure how that turns out in the 60s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 31 December 2019, 17:57:08
Probably better than it would these days, I think...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 31 December 2019, 23:05:58
I'm ducking a lot of the political side of things by just saying "use Bulgaria as a physical location" rather than "this is in Bulgaria."  Copy the geography, the rest is wide open.

I suppose if I were going to mix them, the Drakens and their amazing climb rate go to the mountain areas while the Mirages settle everywhere else there's more flatland. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 31 December 2019, 23:11:08
More specifically where there's a LOT of flat land...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 01 January 2020, 04:00:13
Okay, this is an odd tale, and I can't help but think there's a BT scenario (or an episode of the A-team) in here somewhere:

How Russian attack helicopters ended up in Australia 20 years ago. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-01/png-helicopters-cabinet-secrets/11811170)

(https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11637432-3x2-700x467.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 01 January 2020, 07:26:04
Definitely an AccounTech scenario... amusing!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 01 January 2020, 08:05:05
Link to a video that a mate of mine sent me ... the first Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing from the Royal Navy, apparently ...

https://youtu.be/2m8Zx7c3IcI (https://youtu.be/2m8Zx7c3IcI)

To quote him - "In theory allows a higher 'bring back' weight when in hot environments, which should please HM Treasury because dropping unused smart ordnance in the sea looks bad when doing your end of year report!"

It was supposedly tested in the days of the Harrier, but they didn't think they could do it reliably enough as an approach (possibly also limited by the smaller decks of the carriers then).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 January 2020, 11:35:57
Okay, this is an odd tale, and I can't help but think there's a BT scenario (or an episode of the A-team) in here somewhere:

How Russian attack helicopters ended up in Australia 20 years ago. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-01/png-helicopters-cabinet-secrets/11811170)

(https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11637432-3x2-700x467.jpg)

Interesting bit . . . especially that they just left them there rather than using them or selling them off to other hot spots.  Then again, by the point they are on a RAAF airbase they are compromised for sales to whoever rather than a 'approved end user.'
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 02 January 2020, 13:59:25
I think the cadmium corrosion, and asbestos, contravened a number of Australia's workplace health & safety rules ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 January 2020, 14:33:17
No question about that... there's NOTHING healthy about either one...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 January 2020, 15:18:42
To be fair, there's a thoroughly fun method of disposal of unfired ordnance...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 January 2020, 15:43:48
If only that were true of asbestos...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 January 2020, 15:45:10
I think the cadmium corrosion, and asbestos, contravened a number of Australia's workplace health & safety rules ...

Sure . . . but the fact that the Hinds were under RAAF control makes it hard for the mercs to sell them to say . . . a drug dealer or African warlord fighting a revolution.  I have a hard time believing they would be released from impoundment without a 'approved end user' type document.  Without the rockets- asbestos being a different beast and not discovered until later.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 02 January 2020, 16:06:15
That doesn't sound very safe ... where do I sign up?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 03 January 2020, 05:12:01
Did they try selling the Hinds to a quasi allied user state? And by selling I mean "donating for parts and disposal". Corroded rockets included.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 04 January 2020, 05:59:43
Did they try selling the Hinds to a quasi allied user state? And by selling I mean "donating for parts and disposal". Corroded rockets included.


I doubt Australia's legal system would allow that
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 07:48:44
The article pretty much said exactly that...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ironnerd88 on 04 January 2020, 09:57:11
I do like the Martin-Baker MB.5
(https://www.britmodeller.com/Mike/mb5/MB5.jpg)

Someone mentioned F-22 vs F-35 a while ago. F-22 wins. I've helped build both, and the F-22 is a beast with better maneuverability than the F-16.

And these unit costs are WAAAAYYYYY high...
(https://militarymachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/F-22-vs-F-35.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 10:03:54
Interesting infographic, but JSF talk tends to get these threads locked...

Sweet MB.5!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 January 2020, 10:40:49
That's probably "the cost of fuel, training for the entire crews/groundcrews, a whole bunch of munitions, enough spare parts to build two more planes, and so on with development prices amortized in and adjusted heavily for modern dollars to get the biggest number we could."  The way lifecycles are, we've got birds twice the age of their pilots now.  I mean, look at that billion-plus order from the Bulgarians for a handful of modern Vipers; they factored everything into that sale and it's insanely expensive.  But they've probably got 40 years of use out of those aircraft...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: HobbesHurlbut on 04 January 2020, 11:01:29
wait the Raptor has a RCS LESS THAN A FREAKING HUMMING BIRD?!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 04 January 2020, 11:04:12
Exactly right angle and radar frequencies, quite possibly. I wouldn't trust numbers like those all that far...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 January 2020, 11:51:40
Yeah, that writeup looks like one of the "facts about jets" things that I got in magazines when I was a kid.  Probably technically true but only under the most optimized conditions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 04 January 2020, 13:29:16
(https://external-preview.redd.it/KZQzqGqG98aa3gG6nIEz2-EQ7ht5icxFee_vDyFXKIM.jpg?auto=webp&s=c043c601b0097932f84975785fb40fff7fa8fc67)

Meet the Rocheville Arctic Tern: 1930s amphibian designed for photographic surveys of Alaska
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 January 2020, 15:16:03
Interesting infographic, but JSF talk tends to get these threads locked...

Sweet MB.5!  :thumbsup:

THAT only happens when I get involved, and I'm not getting involved this time.  The numbers speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 15:27:27
It happened a few times while you were, ah, out.  So it's not just you...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 January 2020, 16:06:04
It happened a few times while you were, ah, out.  So it's not just you...

ah, but I tend to be more the instigator of it than most, which is why I'm carefully staying the bleep out it this time.(https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Hughes-1200_480.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 16:18:47
That looks a little big for a P-38... what is it exactly?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 04 January 2020, 16:57:56
a Northrop P-61 Black Widow maybe?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 16:59:55
The nose is big enough for that, but it still seems a little off... I'm not sure...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: God and Davion on 04 January 2020, 17:26:27
A Hughes XF-11 or derivative. I believe that the guy in a dark suit is HH himself.



Edit. I found the picture. It is the Hughes D-2. And HH is the guy in the dark suit.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 17:34:29
Hmm... never heard of one before...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 04 January 2020, 20:12:47
(https://external-preview.redd.it/KZQzqGqG98aa3gG6nIEz2-EQ7ht5icxFee_vDyFXKIM.jpg?auto=webp&s=c043c601b0097932f84975785fb40fff7fa8fc67)

Meet the Rocheville Arctic Tern: 1930s amphibian designed for photographic surveys of Alaska
Are those small passenger area above the pontoons? 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 January 2020, 20:30:16
Hmmm... they DO appear to have windows...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 04 January 2020, 22:51:47
That Martin Baker MB.5 looks like someone left a late model Spitfire and a P-51 alone in a hanger overnight.  It's a nice looking plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 January 2020, 04:46:17
(https://external-preview.redd.it/KZQzqGqG98aa3gG6nIEz2-EQ7ht5icxFee_vDyFXKIM.jpg?auto=webp&s=c043c601b0097932f84975785fb40fff7fa8fc67)

Meet the Rocheville Arctic Tern: 1930s amphibian designed for photographic surveys of Alaska

It looks like a P-26 Peashooter Fighter, and 2 of the Grumman Ducks bolted together. What a odd looking but workable plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 05 January 2020, 06:32:27
That Martin Baker MB.5 looks like someone left a late model Spitfire and a P-51 alone in a hanger overnight.  It's a nice looking plane.
True that!  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 January 2020, 08:50:09
That Martin Baker MB.5 looks like someone left a late model Spitfire and a P-51 alone in a hanger overnight.  It's a nice looking plane.

Given she's british by birth, we know which one was the father...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 05 January 2020, 13:59:29
The Mustang was for a British contract/to a British spec and came into its own when equipped with a British engine, so at best, the P-51 is halfsies.

Although, imagine if NAA hadn't proposed the Mustang and everyone had gone on merrily using P-40*s to the end of the war.  :P

I didn't actually realize that there were some Merlin-engined versions of the P-40 in use
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 05 January 2020, 16:45:56
Hmmm... they DO appear to have windows...

After a bit of Googling, it looks as if it had a crew of three - each of whom had their own area - the pilot in the (presumably frozen) open cockpit, and the other two (presumably the survey specialists) positioned one to each pontoon - not only with a side window, but each with their own forward glass, too!

According to the reference below, the single example was OK in flight tests, but suffered a fuel starvation crash and was destroyed.

https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2018/05/17/rocheville-emsco-arctic-tern-aeroplanum-inexploratus/ (https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2018/05/17/rocheville-emsco-arctic-tern-aeroplanum-inexploratus/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 05 January 2020, 16:50:12
It really makes you wonder when they finally settled on fully closed cockpits...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 06 January 2020, 10:06:47
It really makes you wonder when they finally settled on fully closed cockpits...
Especially since this would have exposed the pilot to Alaskan conditions. Look at the size of the pilot and the cockpit. It looks positively toy-sized compared to his head.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 06 January 2020, 13:48:24
The argument was still going on up until the beginning of WW2. Pilots were used to 'feeling the air', and felt enclosed cockpits restricted their fields of view.

It was only the rise of high-speed monoplane fighters which required enclosed cockpits that settled the argument, and in the process created abominations like the sturdy and obstructive cockpit of the Me-109.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 06 January 2020, 14:08:29
I recall the interview the Galland where he lamented that enclosed cockpit didn't let you smell the oponents exhaust.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ironnerd88 on 06 January 2020, 21:10:34
wait the Raptor has a RCS LESS THAN A FREAKING HUMMING BIRD?!

I not permitted to say a lot about the Raptor  :-X, but on that point... think smaller  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 January 2020, 21:20:04
the F-117 had a Radar Cross Section the size of a small marble so i can totally believe the F-22 is just as good from the right angles.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 08 January 2020, 20:36:57
The argument was still going on up until the beginning of WW2. Pilots were used to 'feeling the air', and felt enclosed cockpits restricted their fields of view.

It was only the rise of high-speed monoplane fighters which required enclosed cockpits that settled the argument, and in the process created abominations like the sturdy and obstructive cockpit of the Me-109.

After flying today for 8 hours in cockpit that has less than great seals...the "feeling of the air" isn't all its cracked up to be!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 08 January 2020, 23:03:09
What was your average airspeed? Average speed for a Swordfish was 124mph.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 January 2020, 23:11:38
open cockpits make a little more sense for the early aircraft.. they didn't travel very fast or high, and they didn't have any reliable way to measure aircraft speed mechanically. so an open cockpit where the pilot could feel the speed of the airflow made sense then. as soon as they figured out how to measure speed and the rest, and especially when they got fast and higher altitude, open cockpits stopped being needed. but it had become a pilot culture thing by then.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 09 January 2020, 02:39:44
What could/would be used for cockpit glass at that time?  Would it be enough to allow for navigation and (where necessary) combat awareness?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 09 January 2020, 20:05:29
What was your average airspeed? Average speed for a Swordfish was 124mph.

I think the trip back I was only averaging about 110 kts.  Though it was over Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, so it wouldn't have been warm even if I was sitting on the ground and not moving.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 10 January 2020, 23:49:26
Another handsome late inter-war airliner. Armstrong Whitworth Ensign - 14 made. Entered service... 1938
(https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/default/files/images/collection-objects/record-images/A19900629000cp02.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 January 2020, 01:45:59
I love the "variable pitch airscrews"...  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 11 January 2020, 16:03:00
From a trip I took not long ago.  I was trying to get some pictures of various displays but a damn goose kept photobombing what I was trying to take pictures of.

(https://i.imgur.com/pUWRF6X.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 January 2020, 16:04:45
I have got to remember to go there one of these days.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 11 January 2020, 16:12:41
My recommendations:

Don't go late afternoon during fall/winter.  It was quite difficult getting good pictures because of the sun.

They've got a separate building now for the space program stuff and admission covered both as of when I took that trip so another reason to go early.

The displays can get a little tight for getting good pictures, again largely due to that damned goose.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 January 2020, 13:43:07
One more for the imagination pile.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 21 January 2020, 14:44:29
does it really count if all they did was file the serial number off a Macross Delta SV-262?
(https://macross.jp/delta/mechanic/images/008/1.jpg)(https://www.hlj.com/media/catalog/product/cache/image/700x700/e9c3970ab036de70892d86c6d221abfe/b/a/bann10508_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 February 2020, 02:14:14
More what-ifs.

And, good call on the Delta aircraft, I hadn't seen that series.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 04 February 2020, 03:45:34
Stirling BK716 found in Netherlands and to be recovered

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/stirling-bomber-bk716-found-holland-1-6486162
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 February 2020, 14:01:34
Surprised she's to be recovered considering it's a war grave.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 07 February 2020, 09:29:43
In November 2018 the Dutch Government announced it was to fund a program to speed up the recovery of planes holding missing crew. 

In late 2019, Hawker Typhoon MN582 was excavated and the probable remains of the pilot William Hurrell were found

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.omroepgelderland.nl/nieuws/2405777/Lochem-bergt-Brits-vliegtuig-en-piloot-uit-Tweede-Wereldoorlog&xid=17259,15700021,15700186,15700191,15700259,15700271,15700302&usg=ALkJrhgcI1tiCJAWa96zrSzAOMKW618-Rg


 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 07 February 2020, 10:43:32
 
Surprised she's to be recovered considering it's a war grave.
Properly interning the remains from a single plane is a lot more feasible then a ship, for one thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 February 2020, 15:13:30
Fair point there, plus you don't have umpteen thousand tons of low-background steel in a typical aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 07 February 2020, 15:48:19
There is a F-15X that is supposed to be designed off a F-15E but with internal bays, the Vertical Tails are like a F-22, and will have 2d Vectored Thrust.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 07 February 2020, 16:21:54
I think you're thinking of the F-15SE Stealth Eagle - internal weapons bay, canted tails, RAM coatings. Never had 2D vector nozzles, though.

Did a little research - yes, there is an F-15X proposal out there, but it's an extension of the Strike Eagle, with absolutely no stealthy. Designed to "complement the F-35, not replace it"- carrying up to 22 AAM, or 28 smallish bombs. So this sounds more like the "missile truck" concepts we were hearing last year.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 February 2020, 17:06:08
+1 for the Dutch, and +1 more for one less MIA...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 11 February 2020, 11:53:57
The first Bell-Boeing CMV-22B Osprey carrier on-board delivery (COD) has been delivered the US Navy.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/220/94220/p1743270_main.jpg)

I see much bigger fuel tanks, and wasn't the fuselage lengthened to fit an F-35 engine?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 11 February 2020, 13:12:46
The CMV-22 looks pretty neat in that paint job.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: David CGB on 12 February 2020, 00:15:13
The CMV-22 looks pretty neat in that paint job.
oh, yes it does
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Alexander Knight on 12 February 2020, 07:32:00
Razzen Frazzen Enclave...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 12 February 2020, 14:08:13
I've seen Canadian Hornets with the fake cockpit painted under the fuselage, and recently seen one on a Spanish Hornet as well.  Are there any examples of other nations doing this, or on aircraft other than Hornets?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 12 February 2020, 15:18:52
I've seen Canadian Hornets with the fake cockpit painted under the fuselage, and recently seen one on a Spanish Hornet as well.  Are there any examples of other nations doing this, or on aircraft other than Hornets?
I've never seen it myself but a then active-duty Master Chief told me that some USN squadrons do that too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 12 February 2020, 16:37:21
I've seen pictures of A-10s and F-14s with the fake cockpit painted on the bottom of the fuselage.  I think the A-10 has it currently, and the F-14 was for a test.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 February 2020, 17:37:42
What's the point of the fake cockpit?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 12 February 2020, 17:39:34
What's the point of the fake cockpit?


Could cause confusion in within-visual-range combat and if flying low level over unfriendlies?

Looks cool?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 12 February 2020, 17:46:10
Yup.  Given a quick glimpse when passing, it's possible to mistake the orientation and therefore which direction it's likely to turn.

Working really hard to figure out how to paint one of the tail less, delta-winged sixth-gen fighters so it looks like it's flying backwards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 February 2020, 17:49:38
Delta wings would make that pretty hard, I'd think...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 February 2020, 21:06:55
(https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/flinkie/1252479/53617/53617_900.png)
I was playing around with the idea of layered, offset semitransparent stripes in a dazzle camouflage.  Kinda hurts to look at.

The jet's a whif of a one-engine F-15 doodle, I got bored once.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 February 2020, 13:24:35
Yup.  Given a quick glimpse when passing, it's possible to mistake the orientation and therefore which direction it's likely to turn.

Working really hard to figure out how to paint one of the tail less, delta-winged sixth-gen fighters so it looks like it's flying backwards.
Trailing edge of the wings a neutral a sky color as you can.  The leading edge of the wings/mid body of the airplane should be painted to stand out a bit.
 A dark band around the nose that kinda mimics the engine, the a cockpit  just forward of the engine.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 February 2020, 10:49:37
(https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/flinkie/1252479/53617/53617_900.png)
I was playing around with the idea of layered, offset semitransparent stripes in a dazzle camouflage.  Kinda hurts to look at.

The jet's a whif of a one-engine F-15 doodle, I got bored once.

looks like a F15.5 or (F15+F16)/2 ?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 14 February 2020, 11:41:46
looks like a F15.5 or (F15+F16)/2 ?


It looks like a F15, F16 and a F18 all in one plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 14 February 2020, 11:55:48

It looks like a F15, F16 and a F18 all in one plane.

It looks like it might have either a fuel range problem, or be limited to subsonic flight to me.  The airflow from those scoops doesn't look like it's going to breathe very well at high altitude or high speed.  I could be drastically wrong here, but that's my first sense from the over-top view.  the second is that while it's got plenty of wing surface, the configuration's not balanced.

and y ou lose the lifting body effect with the fuselage, since it's going narrow/round very quickly.  That's just my impressions, and they could be very wrong.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 February 2020, 15:20:55
Looking closer I think those are F-18 wings, I forget.  It was all just a silly idea to see what a single-engine F-15 would look like, and I went with smaller wings to match.  Hardly a serious attempt, but it does show off that weird "vibrating dazzle camo" idea.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 14 February 2020, 16:51:55
Might be worth considering the 'area rule'.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 February 2020, 01:41:22
Huh.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 18 February 2020, 02:05:34
The above is abut ugly aircraft
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 18 February 2020, 02:55:51
It looks malformed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 February 2020, 04:21:20
I never imagined a P-51 could be ugly at all, much less THAT ugly!  :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 18 February 2020, 05:06:31
That was criminal.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 18 February 2020, 05:20:49
apparently that was a testbed for a turboprop engine on a Cavalier Mustang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_Mustang) chassis, which was then used to design the  Piper PA-48 Enforcer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer) which is a much more natural looking P-51 derivative..

Cavalier: (basically a demilitarized P-51 rebuilt as a ground attack plane)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Cavalier_Mustang.jpg)

Enforcer:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Piper_PA48_Enforcer_USAF.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dragon Cat on 21 February 2020, 05:39:24
An (the one so far) RAF Posideon P8 flying near Lossiemouth, Scotland
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 21 February 2020, 05:46:00
It strikes me that the RAF would do well to adapt the part of their Voyager tanker fleet that doesn't have a hose-and-drogue from the stern midline position to have a boom to refuel these and other aircraft in the RAF inventory that don't have capacity to refuel from hose-and-drogue


For the RAF, these are generally American bought aircraft like the RIVET JOINT and probably the AWACS replacement - given these are often deployed from home a long distance and are in small numbers only it would allow the RAF to extend mission duration for these types


Alternatively, if/when the USAF retires the B-52, I think currently scheduled to be sometime in the Captain Kirk era of the future, perhaps everyone could shift across to the hose-and-drogue style?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 21 February 2020, 09:02:12
I doubt that the USAF ever would.. not only because it isn't just the B-52 driving it (every USAF plane equipped for inflight refueling uses the boom system) but also because the boom system transfers fuel faster, which given the size of USAF combat ops is a notable need, as well as for things like the B-1 and upcoming B-21 where a hose and drogue system would add extra risk due to the time needed to refuel them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 21 February 2020, 10:30:13
I doubt that the USAF ever would..

See, I thought you were talking about retiring the B-52 initially . . .

I agree with glitter- as I understand the hose & drogue nature of the USN's ops is b/c it fits carrier ops and at least initially was a ordnance set up on bombers (buddy stores) though that is inferred from reading rather than strict research.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 21 February 2020, 11:08:25
Hose-and-drogue predates probe, it's the older technology, as a result, it's more widely distributed worldwide, especially among forces that haven't got to cover quite as much area quite as quickly as the USAF does.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 03 March 2020, 15:51:51
Boeing Defense has officially unveiled its offering for the US Army's Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) program.

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/Boeing-FARA.jpg)

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/Boeing-FARA-2.jpg)

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/ESMhaa_UUAM0k7M.png)

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/MJEF3T463FDFRBE7EXIRJEXGVY.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 03 March 2020, 16:05:42
Boeing Defense has officially unveiled its offering for the US Army's Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) program.

A rearward prop just in time for the 30th anniversary of Red October: "Captain, we're cavitating, he can hear us!" "Conn, aye!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 03 March 2020, 16:07:38
The other contenders that were previously unveiled repeated here for convenience.

AVX/L3 Compound Coaxial Helicopter
(https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/media:81d40e1dc8ab199bb265b7cf112e8a2b/800.jpeg)

Bell Invictus
(https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5d98b8524223bf0006b7cb07/960x0.jpg?fit=scale)

Sikorsky Raider X
(https://giecdn.azureedge.net/storage/fileuploads/image/2019/10/15/sikorsky_raider_x-concept.jpg?w=736&h=414&mode=crop)

Karem AR40
(https://d1a2ot8agkqe8w.cloudfront.net/web/2019/10/karem-ar40_79087.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Empyrus on 03 March 2020, 17:14:31
That last one looks like a fish.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 03 March 2020, 17:20:27
I was thinking it looked like a flying whale. A beluga, perhaps.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 03 March 2020, 17:27:19
Am I the only one getting flashbacks to the AH-56 Cheyenne prototype with all of those concept designs?  Except for the Bell one, which looks like a revamped Comanche?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 03 March 2020, 17:30:27
Boeing Defense has officially unveiled its offering for the US Army's Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) program.

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/Boeing-FARA.jpg)

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/Boeing-FARA-2.jpg)

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/ESMhaa_UUAM0k7M.png)

(https://www.key.aero/sites/default/files/inline-images/MJEF3T463FDFRBE7EXIRJEXGVY.jpg)
Comanche Mk.II
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 March 2020, 17:31:05
Am I the only one getting flashbacks to the AH-56 Cheyenne prototype with all of those concept designs?  Except for the Bell one, which looks like a revamped Comanche?

That, and Airwolf.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 03 March 2020, 17:37:04
I was thinking it looked like a flying whale. A beluga, perhaps.

flying fish
https://www.google.com/search?q=flying+fish&prmd=vimn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiwmoftrv_nAhVMb60KHUb2BewQ_AUoAnoECBoQAg&biw=962&bih=601
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 March 2020, 18:03:52
Or at least some pretty good conceptual art of their design...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 03 March 2020, 20:34:35
That first one reminds me more Clone Wars than anything else.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 04 March 2020, 09:03:14

It looks like a F15, F16 and a F18 all in one plane.
Much like the (not so love) child of a Mitsubishi F-2 and a F-15.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 04 March 2020, 14:03:11
So in 2017 commander of an airbase near Severnomorsk ordered that the long stuck doors of an abandoned HAS be forced open. This is what they pulled out.

(https://i.redd.it/q28xjwfaknk41.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 04 March 2020, 14:06:27
So in 2017 commander of an airbase near Severnomorsk ordered that the long stuck doors of an abandoned HAS be forced open. This is what they pulled out.

(https://i.redd.it/q28xjwfaknk41.jpg)



Wings are for cowards
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dragon Cat on 04 March 2020, 14:24:22
I like the Bell Invictus
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 04 March 2020, 15:31:49
So in 2017 commander of an airbase near Severnomorsk ordered that the long stuck doors of an abandoned HAS be forced open. This is what they pulled out.

(https://i.redd.it/q28xjwfaknk41.jpg)
HAS?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 04 March 2020, 15:37:59

what plane is that russian bird? is it a VSTOL Yak?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CranstonSnord on 04 March 2020, 15:39:48
HAS = Hardened Aircraft Shelter
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 04 March 2020, 15:41:32
YAK-38s.  I don't remember seeing pics of them painted grey.   All the ones I can remember were blue.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 March 2020, 17:48:53
At least the tires had the decency to rot...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 March 2020, 23:00:24
Ah, the Forger.

Makes the Harrier look like a superfighter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ursus Maior on 05 March 2020, 08:43:03
YAK-38s.  I don't remember seeing pics of them painted grey.   All the ones I can remember were blue.
Probably got the grey in the late 80s or early 90s. In 1986 they were still blue, here is a picture from 1993 that looks very similar to the one posted earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-38#/media/File:Yakovlev_Yak-38M_at_MAKS-1993_airshow.jpg
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 05 March 2020, 12:56:56
Is that an additional intake on top, or just an access panel?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 05 March 2020, 13:15:10
Is that an additional intake on top, or just an access panel?
Intake for a vertical takeoff engine.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 March 2020, 13:36:39
Intake for a vertical takeoff engine.
technically engines plural, as it had two Rybinsk RD-38 turbojet engines in that location for use as lift jets.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: qc mech3 on 05 March 2020, 13:38:19
Frankly, the YAK-38 was more of a demonstrator then a real combat aircraft.  :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 05 March 2020, 14:30:57
About the Yak-38... The "real" design was the supersonic Yak-41 (later Yak-141) which only managed 4 prototypes before '91. It continued development later in partnership with - Lockheed! And seriously, look at the Yak-141 and F-35 side-by-side and wonder at the similarities. :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 05 March 2020, 14:34:30
Wasn't it designed to ferry hop from ice flow to ice flow across the Bering Sea in a proposed surprise attack of the Cold War? Invasion of Alaska via WW III...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 March 2020, 15:17:29
Wasn't it designed to ferry hop from ice flow to ice flow across the Bering Sea in a proposed surprise attack of the Cold War? Invasion of Alaska via WW III...

TT
no. it was designed to let them have a carrier jet they could stick on their bigger cruisers (which till then could only use helicopters), as an attempt to give them a defense against NATO strike fighters. unfortunately it was far too limited in ability and they didn't have enough ships that could carry it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 06 March 2020, 05:45:16
Yes the Yak-41 And the f35 have lots of things in common. It's nice see the west copy off the east some times. It usually goes the other way around.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 08 March 2020, 15:06:30
Comanche Mk.II
Glad it was not just me..
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 19 March 2020, 18:59:46
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/news/f-16.html

....ouch!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 March 2020, 19:26:33
didn't that happen like years ago?

yeah, looks like 2018.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a23793250/belgium-f-16-accidentally-destroys-another-f-16/
https://www.newsweek.com/technician-accidentally-fires-vulcan-canon-destroying-f16-airbase-tarmac-1168715
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/10/16/mechanic-accidentally-fires-cannon-destroying-f-16-ground-belgium.html

no idea why "warhistoryonline" is reporting a 2 year old incident as being new. especially when the pictures match so it isn't a 2nd incident.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 19 March 2020, 19:35:15
Well, poop.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 March 2020, 19:57:30
no idea why "warhistoryonline" is reporting a 2 year old incident as being new. especially when the pictures match so it isn't a 2nd incident.

Someone who works at the site probably got it pop up in their recommended stories and didn't bother to check the date, most likely.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 20 March 2020, 01:41:01
Next they will run the story about F-11 that shot itself down as breaking news.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 20 March 2020, 02:27:33
Wonder if Weirdo could scratch build a F-90 Stingray to look like that... hhmmm...

2 cm drill bit and some torch time with dark and smoky charcoal effects? Airbrushed a bit.. maybe a bit if extra melty bits?

TT  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 20 March 2020, 11:04:31
Most recent but the plane survived. A Dutch F16 damaged itself, and had to make of a emergency landing.
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/04/08/dutch-f-16-makes-emergency-landing-after-plane-shoots-itself/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 21 March 2020, 03:18:24
So it did like that F-11 did, flying under it's own rounds?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 21 March 2020, 13:15:33
Looks like it, somehow.  I dare the pilot to paint an F-16 silhouette kill marker now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 21 March 2020, 22:19:44
I think that one was either fragments or ricochets from the cannon shots. Same reason there's a minimum drop height for bombs and/or ****** systems to help put some separation between the aircraft and the shrapnel and debris from the explosion.

And hey, the X-29!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/X-29_from_front_perspective.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 22 March 2020, 00:17:22
The X-29 was a sexy bitch.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 22 March 2020, 04:00:13
The only other fwd swpt plane that tried to make it was the Su-47. Not as clean as the X-29, but for a Russian plane its not that bad.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 22 March 2020, 13:33:42
When they gonna put a particle wave cannon on those !!  :D

TT :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 22 March 2020, 14:20:21
When they gonna put a particle wave cannon on those !!  :D

TT :D


Turn the radar up to 11?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 22 March 2020, 15:24:54
The only other fwd swpt plane that tried to make it was the Su-47. Not as clean as the X-29, but for a Russian plane its not that bad.

There was also the Hansa Jet

(https://i.redd.it/a1glx5hq1mo31.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 22 March 2020, 15:40:01
What the what... clever, and brilliant, but still managing to look not-quite-right at the same time.  I'd almost check for CGI compositing artefacts.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 March 2020, 15:43:55
Why on earth would you use a forward swept design for passenger jet?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 22 March 2020, 16:04:12
Why on earth would you use a forward swept design for passenger jet?  ???


I'd guess STOL capability on little European airfields?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 March 2020, 16:14:53
I'm not seeing a STOL advantage for forward swept wings... they seem to only provide for higher maneuverability, something that passenger jets really don't need...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 22 March 2020, 19:28:15
I'm not seeing a STOL advantage for forward swept wings... they seem to only provide for higher maneuverability, something that passenger jets really don't need...

More docile stall handling. It's also a very moderate amount of sweep, and this was designed way back in the 60s.

The most important factor was probably that the chief engineer had worked on the Junkers Ju 287 - a prototype jet bomber with forward swept wings.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Modellphoto_Ju287V1_2.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 March 2020, 21:06:57
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the stall characteristics seem to be worse without some serious computing power.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dragon Cat on 23 March 2020, 02:58:32


An Avro Lancaster flying over Avro Vulcan B.2s on the Operational Readiness Platform at RAF Waddington.
Image: © IWM (RAF-T 8296)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 23 March 2020, 03:47:01
That thing is so low, I first thought it was taxiing!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 23 March 2020, 08:36:24
The History Guy seems to be spying on our thread again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iExudx915Ek

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 23 March 2020, 11:01:23
That thing is so low, I first thought it was taxiing!  :o

Yeah . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 23 March 2020, 11:13:34
Isn't that normal operating height?  Or have I been watching Dambusters one too many times again?   ;D

That thing is so low, I first thought it was taxiing!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 23 March 2020, 17:50:25
The History Guy seems to be spying on our thread again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iExudx915Ek
Cool video, thanks for sharing!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 25 March 2020, 03:18:04
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the stall characteristics seem to be worse without some serious computing power.

The idea is that the wing root stalls before the tips, retaining aileron control for longer. In practice, there are a lot more variables in play, like the wing's angle of incidence and if it varies, the presence of equipment like slats, the material and bending tendency of the wing, etc. etc.

IIRC, the Spitfire's docile stall characteristics are at least partly due to variable incidence in the wing providing similar behaviour (roots stalling before tips).

On an unrelated note, have a modern flying boat:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Canadair_CL-415_-_Verbania_-_0.jpg/1200px-Canadair_CL-415_-_Verbania_-_0.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 26 March 2020, 06:58:32
It's now a two horse race.

On March 25th the US Army selected Bell and Sikorsky to move forward with its Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft-Competitive Prototype (FARA-CP) program.

The two companies edged out AVX Aircraft-L3 Technologies, Boeing, and Karem Aircraft.

(https://sites.breakingmedia.com/uploads/sites/3/2020/03/FARA-illustration-768x632.png)

Not surprising, as both companies are also the finalists in the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA) program.

(https://sites.breakingmedia.com/uploads/sites/3/2020/02/FVL-both-FLRAA-V-280-SB-1-Army-photo.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 26 March 2020, 07:27:16
Any chance of cross over of components like engines or transmissions to ease logistics? A bit like the AH-1 and UH-1
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 26 March 2020, 07:33:43
It's now a two horse race.

On March 25th the US Army selected Bell and Sikorsky to move forward with its Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft-Competitive Prototype (FARA-CP) program.


Not surprising, as both companies are also the finalists in the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA) program.

(https://sites.breakingmedia.com/uploads/sites/3/2020/02/FVL-both-FLRAA-V-280-SB-1-Army-photo.jpg)

Both of these are aesthetically unpleasing, especially what appears to be Sikorsky version (top)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 26 March 2020, 09:57:11
Any chance of cross over of components like engines or transmissions to ease logistics? A bit like the AH-1 and UH-1

I'd say there's quite a bit on the Sikorsky designs. Not that it'll matter though. The way the US awards defense contracts (The best design doesn't always win. Everyone gets their turn.) I can almost guarantee that one competition will be won by Bell and the other by Sikorsky.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 26 March 2020, 10:10:06
Both of these are aesthetically unpleasing, especially what appears to be Sikorsky version (top)


I prefer the Sikorsky to the Bell design aesthetic
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 26 March 2020, 10:27:00
To me, the Sikorsky looks too civilian-ish while the Bell looks like someone was messing around with the zoom feature.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 March 2020, 13:23:58
That's a good way to put it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DoctorMonkey on 26 March 2020, 13:28:22
The Sikorsky reminds me of the dragon Toothless from How To Train Your Dragon in appearance
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 26 March 2020, 14:11:56
I rather like the Bell design, it should be a quiet little thing compared to the Sikorsky's interacting blades.  Maybe not as fast or maneuverable (there's something to be said for reversible pusher props) but that fenestron is going to do a lot for keeping the noise down.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 March 2020, 16:31:51
If range is weighted heaviest for that second competition, I'm sure the tilt rotor will win it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 26 March 2020, 20:52:54
The Sikorsky reminds me of the dragon Toothless from How To Train Your Dragon in appearance

That's exactly it!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 16 April 2020, 01:25:18
Does anyone know of a real-world seaplane that has a float layout similar to the Seabuster?

(https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mul-images/Aerospace%20Fighters/Seabuster%20Strike%20Fighter.png)

I'm planning to kitbash a couple Mechbuster minis, and was hoping to have images from multiple angles to work with for reference.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 16 April 2020, 01:33:04
I'd guess 3-4 maybe t-shaped floats with winglets.  The engine looks vectored as well.  Can't think of any real world versions though.

Does anyone know of a real-world seaplane that has a float layout similar to the Seabuster?

(https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mul-images/Aerospace%20Fighters/Seabuster%20Strike%20Fighter.png)

I'm planning to kitbash a couple Mechbuster minis, and was hoping to have images from multiple angles to work with for reference.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 16 April 2020, 03:45:32
Does anyone know of a real-world seaplane that has a float layout similar to the Seabuster?

Nope - assuming that the 'lumps' under the canards and inner wings are conventional floats - because it's insane, at the same level as most ASFs.

I'd be inclined to assume they're ordnance, and that the Seabuster uses a skid arrangement like the Sea Dart.

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-345ca11b1380766eeee84ca90ffcae2d)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 16 April 2020, 10:13:03
Maybe they're just retractable pontoons? Extend when in the water, retract them once in the air for better aerodynamics? Not exactly common, but not unheard of either.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 16 April 2020, 10:34:19
Maybe they're just retractable pontoons? Extend when in the water, retract them once in the air for better aerodynamics? Not exactly common, but not unheard of either.

those become drag sources and vortex generators VERY quickly.  at best, you're crippling your manueverability and lift.  (You want your vortex generators to be positioned ON TOP of the wing, not below it, in order to increase lift.) at worst, you're also creating problems with war-load (your pontoons end up occupying spaces better devoted to bombs and rocket pods.)

but then, MOST of the Battletech Universe haven't heard of things like "wind tunnels", so it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 16 April 2020, 11:24:17
With enough thrust, even a brick can fly! - Leopard class dropship.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 16 April 2020, 11:57:37
With enough thrust, even a brick can fly! - Leopard class dropship.

yeah, except we're not discussing something with improbably powerful exhaust that violates physics to work.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 16 April 2020, 12:25:11
With enough thrust, even a brick can fly!

It's true.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/QF-4_Holloman_AFB.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 16 April 2020, 13:31:06
I think I'll go with the retractable pontoons. Not the most efficient approach, but as we all know, the more efficient something is, the less appreciate it is to include in a Battletech game. :thumbsup:

Besides, Seabusters run fusion instead of a turbine, so I figure it really does have the power to overcome the aerodynamic issues.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 16 April 2020, 13:52:49
It's true.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/QF-4_Holloman_AFB.jpg)

aw, come on now, the Phantom II isn't THAT bad.  (the J-79 isn't THAT good.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 30 April 2020, 04:20:17
Anyone in Houston is in for a treat

http://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/fight-to-the-finish-flyover-houston-texas-on-may-8th-2020.html

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 April 2020, 16:55:00
Anyone in Houston is in for a treat

http://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/fight-to-the-finish-flyover-houston-texas-on-may-8th-2020.html

Thats pretty neat, makes wish I could get to Houston!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 April 2020, 16:57:06
Surprised I did not see this here . . .

(https://mk0breakingnewsjf4cx.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/UFO-1068x601.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 10 May 2020, 19:02:59
I ran across this the other day...it's a B-52B with a 2 20mm cannon tail turret.

(https://i.imgur.com/eWo470x.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 May 2020, 19:06:15
How the heck was the gunner expected to hit anything?? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 10 May 2020, 19:49:51
Firing against jet interceptors? Using radar fixes, from that large bulge atop the cannons. Same way the .50s were fired. At least two BUFF tail gunners shot down Mig-21s, IIRC.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 May 2020, 20:00:18
I thought the B-52 gunners were closer to their guns...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 10 May 2020, 20:02:53
You may be thinking of Tupolev tail guns, which basically take the Flying Fortress/Superfortress configuration forward ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 May 2020, 20:12:39
Could be, could be... Thanks!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 10 May 2020, 21:41:10
I thought the B-52 gunners were closer to their guns...

It depended on the model of B-52. If you look to the left of the person in the pic you can see the canopy over the gunner's compartment.  Later ones, I think the H and G models, moved the gunner up front with the rest of the crew.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 11 May 2020, 11:48:53
The tail gun did get a couple of kills in Vietnam
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 11 May 2020, 14:29:15
BUFFs started with quad fiftys. Then moved on to twin twentys, then eventually a Vulcan.

They're now gunless.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 May 2020, 16:31:12
BUFFs started with quad fiftys. Then moved on to twin twentys, then eventually a Vulcan.

They're now gunless.

But the Old Dogs now carry missiles . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 11 May 2020, 17:51:19
Too bad they don't have SST style noses and V wing tails!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 May 2020, 06:48:19
Japan just took delivery of their first Ospreys.

(https://www.janes.com/images/assets/049/96049/1767761-main.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 May 2020, 06:50:21
In other news, Chinese sources as saying that the Xian H-20 stealth bomber could make its first public appearance at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition this November.

(https://www.key.aero/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/Xian%20H-20%20%5BWeibo%20via%20Fox%20News%5D%20%231.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 12 May 2020, 07:03:44
"But we never saw any aircraft?"

"It's a STEALTH aircraft!"

^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 May 2020, 07:31:06
"But we never saw any aircraft?"

"It's a STEALTH aircraft!"

^-^

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/ac/6b/a1ac6bb0af88cb4d44d0466279675292.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 12 May 2020, 08:24:53
That three-color Japanese livery really is an attractive color scheme.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 12 May 2020, 12:26:36
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/ac/6b/a1ac6bb0af88cb4d44d0466279675292.jpg)

Reminds me of a display at an open house at Shaw Air Force Base back in the late 80’s or so. Had a display set up showing off the new stealth fighter.

Only it was in full stealth mode, so the only thing you could see behind the barrier lines was it’s landing gear.

 ;D

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 May 2020, 13:12:30
Is that the photo that gets tagged as Wonder Woman's invisible jet?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 May 2020, 14:32:22
I thought that was a Klingon Bird of Prey??
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 12 May 2020, 15:49:21
Reminds me of a display at an open house at Shaw Air Force Base back in the late 80’s or so. Had a display set up showing off the new stealth fighter.

Only it was in full stealth mode, so the only thing you could see behind the barrier lines was it’s landing gear.

 ;D

Ruger

 ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/t1whbmk.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 12 May 2020, 18:14:08
;)

(https://i.imgur.com/t1whbmk.jpg)

Kinda, except you could also see the struts and this was on concrete.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 15 May 2020, 13:45:48
Looks like a Raptor out of Eglin went down, pilot ejected.  No details yet, anyone heard any news?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 15 May 2020, 14:09:06
Not much more than you just said unfortunately: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/15/politics/f-22-jet-crash-florida/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/15/politics/f-22-jet-crash-florida/index.html)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 15 May 2020, 14:18:57
sometimes, with fighters, you land the airplane, and sometimes, with fighters, (even in peacetime) the plane lands without you.  this is true of pretty much ANY sort of high performance machine.  (a motorcyclist that hasn't dumped their bike, hasn't dumped it YET. same thing applies to aircraft.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Nightlord01 on 15 May 2020, 20:34:42
sometimes, with fighters, you land the airplane, and sometimes, with fighters, (even in peacetime) the plane lands without you.  this is true of pretty much ANY sort of high performance machine.  (a motorcyclist that hasn't dumped their bike, hasn't dumped it YET. same thing applies to aircraft.)

This! So much this.

Every aircraft design fails sooner or later, largely due to imperfections in the manufacturing process. Airworthiness is a massive part of the industry now, it suits everybody to have the aircraft land only when the pilot wants it to, but even that process fails on a fairly regular basis.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 18 May 2020, 03:20:46
Snowbird down in Canada

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52701421
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 May 2020, 16:34:21
Sounds like the pilot managed to miss everyone on the ground at the cost of her own life...  That takes work in a residential neighborhood.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 19 May 2020, 01:33:03
Sounds like the pilot managed to miss everyone on the ground at the cost of her own life...  That takes work in a residential neighborhood.

The pilot survived. The fatality was his passenger, a PR officer.

Also, the plane mostly hit a house - luckily the occupants were in the basement/backyard and not the part where the plane hit
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 19 May 2020, 01:35:21
They both ejected, but it seems it was too low for parachute to fully deploy and the crew member who ejected slightly higher survived with serious injuries. I guess these airplanes have older ejection seats that are not zero-zero capable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 19 May 2020, 06:10:59
The Fighter Pilot Podcast posted a video about the crash on YouTube yesterday.  They had a former Snowbirds pilot watching a video of the crash and commenting.  He said the plane had a 0/60 seat.   Of course, being at low altitude and in a steep descent doesn't give much time to eject before you're too low.   https://youtu.be/Xl7qOY2-o_Y (https://youtu.be/Xl7qOY2-o_Y)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 May 2020, 16:01:14
Yikes!  Why would you fly aerobatic aircraft WITHOUT a 0/0 seat??  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 19 May 2020, 17:19:17
From what I understand it probably did have a 0/0 setup but 0/0 setups still aren't going to completely remove the possibility of coming down a bit hard at such low levels.  Especially in that kind of situation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 20 May 2020, 01:26:20
Yikes!  Why would you fly aerobatic aircraft WITHOUT a 0/0 seat??  ???
Because planes are old, predating the 0/0 seats and Canadian military budget has always been tight. It took them more than thirty years to replace the aging Sea Kings, ejection seats in these planes are even further down the list of priorities.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 20 May 2020, 09:25:11
The aircraft are lower performance than those used by the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels.  And other acrobatics oriented aircraft, such as those used in the Red Bull air races, don't have any ejection system.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 May 2020, 16:16:13
Saw a F-35 crashed in FL?  Two USAF fighter crashes in FL in the space of a week?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 20 May 2020, 16:32:41
The aircraft are lower performance than those used by the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels.  And other acrobatics oriented aircraft, such as those used in the Red Bull air races, don't have any ejection system.
Yikes!  That must involve one hell of a waiver...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 21 May 2020, 01:57:17
No need for waiver as Red Bull air races are civilian competition and as such have no requirement for ejection seats.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 May 2020, 02:54:37
I meant for the pilots to sign...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Nightlord01 on 21 May 2020, 22:29:51
I meant for the pilots to sign...

It would be part of their accepted risk profile, yes.

Not too sure about the US, but here in Aus, it doesn't matter what you sign when it comes to mandatory safety equipment, the person in charge is in a world of hurt if it's not provided. Some things cannot be waived here.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 21 May 2020, 23:39:46
Apparently there's a ton of mandatory training on top of that, like underwater egress.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 25 May 2020, 18:15:34
I meant for the pilots to sign...

You should see the waiver I signed for my flying job.  There has to be a better way to make $18/hr...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 29 May 2020, 20:42:59
You should see the waiver I signed for my flying job.  There has to be a better way to make $18/hr...

Would you rather fly this instead?

(https://www.key.aero/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/Xian%20H-20%20%5BWeibo%20via%20Fox%20News%5D%20%231.jpg)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 30 May 2020, 08:38:21
Well there is a lot of things I would rather be flying, but as the song goes: "if you want to sing the blues you have to pay your dues"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 15 June 2020, 05:47:41
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-53051055

I hope this ends well
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 15 June 2020, 14:52:07
Seems the story was updated... that is not a good ending at all.  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 16 June 2020, 02:53:26
I'm afraid not

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-53051055
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 16 June 2020, 17:18:35
REST IN PEACE
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 18 June 2020, 09:39:44
Some more theory on the Arrow...

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200615-the-record-breaking-jet-which-still-haunts-a-country?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Pretty good article from my first read through.  Seems to have a better balance than many others that I have read on the subject.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 26 June 2020, 14:23:38
(https://www.key.aero/sites/keyaero/files/styles/article_body/public/2020-06/global_military_might_infographic.png?itok=CrjWStnR)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 July 2020, 14:02:17
Boeing recently delivered the 2,500th AH-64 Apache.

(https://www.zap16.com/airshow/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IGP3392-Boeing-AH-64D-Apache-Longbow-Q-29-Netherlands-AF.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 July 2020, 14:08:24
Hellfires are so expensive it's only carrying half its capacity for the promo shot?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 04 July 2020, 15:36:53
2,500 Balacs ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 05 July 2020, 07:12:42
The WizKids Balac was actually based on the Mangusta.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/20150506052017%21Agusta_A129A_Mangusta%2C_Italy_-_Army_%28cropped%29.jpg)

I think we can all guess what they based the Lamprey on.   ;)

(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/283865171502_/MechWarrior-Spirit-Cats-Robert-Bavros-Unique-Lamprey-Helicopter.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 05 July 2020, 15:29:23
That Lamprey almost is a copy of the Hind.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 July 2020, 18:22:42
that figure for the F-16 (it being 15% of the operational aircraft in the world) makes me wonder what percentage the MiG-21 (and derivatives like the Chengdu J-7) held in their heyday, given that the F-16 only had ~4600 built, while the MiG-21/J-7 had nearly 14,000 built
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 July 2020, 02:05:53
that figure for the F-16 (it being 15% of the operational aircraft in the world) makes me wonder what percentage the MiG-21 (and derivatives like the Chengdu J-7) held in their heyday, given that the F-16 only had ~4600 built, while the MiG-21/J-7 had nearly 14,000 built

Quite possibly less. Aircraft were cheaper and more specialized, while air forces were larger in the heyday of the MiG-21. Modern air forces are based off one or two core multi-role aircraft now. Until you get to some of the late model J-7s with the new wing, Fishbeds lacked range, payload capacity, and just plain old number of hardpoints to do much more than hurl a couple of IR missiles at an attacker (not all Fishbeds carried cannon either). They had about the light attack capability of an advanced trainer - using the gunsight to aim unguided rockets.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 06 July 2020, 07:44:10
Some shots of a MiG 21 (re designated YF-110) under USAF evaluation at Groom Lake.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/4477th_Test_and_Evaluation_Squadron_MiG-21_in_flight.jpg)

(https://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/img/shiplord_kirel/2010/08/03/havedoughnutcolor6.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 06 July 2020, 08:49:12
Quite possibly less. Aircraft were cheaper and more specialized, while air forces were larger in the heyday of the MiG-21. Modern air forces are based off one or two core multi-role aircraft now. Until you get to some of the late model J-7s with the new wing, Fishbeds lacked range, payload capacity, and just plain old number of hardpoints to do much more than hurl a couple of IR missiles at an attacker (not all Fishbeds carried cannon either). They had about the light attack capability of an advanced trainer - using the gunsight to aim unguided rockets.

the phrase "multi-Role' is more of a buzzword than an actual 'thing'.  even in the sixties and seventies (the heyday of the MiG-21), interceptors were doing ground attack, ground attackers were doing air superiority, and so on.

Most of the combat flying hours logged by the F-5 were in ground support missions, and that's a plane with a similar warload, slightly smaller size, and so on as the MiG-21, both of which were initially intended to be short duration interceptors.

as was the original RFP for the F-16, and the F-15 was intended to be air-superiority and bomber interception, but with the E version, became a bomber.  The F-111 was intended to be all 'multirole' and took until the G model before it functioned in ANY role...at all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dragon Cat on 07 July 2020, 14:51:16
One of the UKs refuelling Voyager craft also acts as a VIP transport.  It recently got a new paint job
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 08 July 2020, 12:58:54
One of the UKs refuelling Voyager craft also acts as a VIP transport.  It recently got a new paint job

Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 July 2020, 13:01:34
I'm sure materials were much less than half... painting a plane isn't like painting a car or a house.  It has to be done RIGHT.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 08 July 2020, 13:06:56
I was assuming that like almost any paint job the bulk of the cost is labour, but it still seems insanely high.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 08 July 2020, 13:15:15
A visualy radar reflective coating?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dragon Cat on 08 July 2020, 13:23:45
Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?

According to reports it was also electronics overhaul and general maintenance for the year as well
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 July 2020, 13:30:11
That should account for it... doing some research, the paint job alone should have been about a fifth of that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 08 July 2020, 13:43:21
According to reports it was also electronics overhaul and general maintenance for the year as well

Now that makes so much more sense!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 08 July 2020, 14:47:39
Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?

Ever watched Independence Day?

 ;D

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 08 July 2020, 15:19:04
Ever watched Independence Day?

I've been trying to forget it.

Thanks for bring up bad memories!   :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 08 July 2020, 19:23:04
Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?
I suspect part of it has to do with the nature of large bureaucratic organizations. I work at an Ivy League University. Say I want to buy a $5 pack of O-rings.  I make about $30/hr, but because of benefits and overhead costs, I cost the department about $60/hr.  So if I spend half an hour calculating the proper size O-ring for this dingus I'm designing, then find out that McMaster doesn't sell that size, so I go back and redesign the dingus to match what they do sell, that's $30.  I send the purchase request up the chain and the purchasing agent is required to by policy to check a couple different vendors, place the order, then file out some paperwork.  Maybe an hour's worth of work.  Lets say makes $25/hr, so with benefits and such, she costs $50/hr.   Then someone over at financial affairs costing another $50/hr spends 30 minutes looking over the paperwork.  See how this adds up?

So we are already up to what? $85 to buy a $5 pack of O-rings, and the story isn't finished yet, but to be honest, my understanding of the process gets fuzzy after this point. Oh, and I forgot shipping costs!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: qc mech3 on 08 July 2020, 21:36:35
One of my previous job was QC for shop doing plating and painting for small and medium aviation parts. Just the specs for the paint, application and inspection were fun read  :crash: and the yearly approval was a hoot too.  :lol:

In the end, the difference between an aeronautic and hotpot bolt is the paperwork that come with it.  C:-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 09 July 2020, 00:33:34
not to mention that aircraft probably need specialized paint formulas, similar to how car paint and house paint are chemically different.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 09 July 2020, 01:00:01
Repainting planes has always been very expensive. Repainting a B737 o A320 costs around 50K USD. Repainting a widebody like a B777 or A330 can cost you between 100 and 250k depending on number of colors and fanciness of design. Remember that some Japanese planes sport a Picachu publicity. That is some expensive publicity. Paint weighs and needs to be taken into account in operational costs, so it is important to do it right. That is one of the many reasons that airlines do not change their livery too frequently even if it sucks. And that sometimes 2 liveries coexist for a long time when they do change it. If you have 100 planes and repainting them costs you 75000 each on average it is not lunch money expenditure we are talking here.

The high price tag of this refit looks more to do with the electronics refit than the paint anyway.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 09 July 2020, 02:23:52
One of the UKs refuelling Voyager craft also acts as a VIP transport.  It recently got a new paint job

Only one winner between visibility/crew safety versus politics/ego
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 09 July 2020, 07:35:25
I imagine the paint itself is really expensive. After all, you need stuff that will go on fully opaque with as thin a coat as possible to avoid adding hundreds of pounds to the aircraft's weight (and ask anyone up in the minis forum how hard it is to get certain colors to look right with only one coat), while also going on perfectly smooth to reduce drag, AND also being tough enough to withstand the full range of harsh sunlight, temperature/moisture extremes, and high-speed dust and microdebris that all aircraft are expected to operate it. Games Workshop may be a rip-off, but I suspect even folks used to such extortion would suffer more than a little bit of sticker shock if they ever had to spring for any quantity of aviation paint.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 09 July 2020, 07:37:29
They were recently featured in the Economist a second time, and based on that article, they just might be in the actual airplane painting market soon, at least for a corporate jet or two...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 09 July 2020, 07:41:42
I wonder what kind of moronic names they'll give their avpaint colors...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 09 July 2020, 07:42:30
No bets there!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 09 July 2020, 07:57:30
Imperial White (the most common color/basecoat) is quite a given
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 09 July 2020, 10:12:13
Eh...not pompous or edgy enough.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 July 2020, 12:57:06
Imperial White
Eh...not pompous or edgy enough.
I dunno, imperical evidence suggests otherwise :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 09 July 2020, 15:43:26
I dunno, imperical evidence suggests otherwise :D

Someone's going to get a visit from the Ordo Punnicus.

But they should paint it red because it makes it go faster.  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 10 July 2020, 05:02:12
Norwegian airlines tends to agree with the Ork feel, yup

(https://d500.epimg.net/cincodias/imagenes/2020/06/17/companias/1592386647_253521_1592386762_miniatura_normal.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 10 July 2020, 07:50:08
I imagine the paint itself is really expensive. After all, you need stuff that will go on fully opaque with as thin a coat as possible to avoid adding hundreds of pounds to the aircraft's weight (and ask anyone up in the minis forum how hard it is to get certain colors to look right with only one coat), while also going on perfectly smooth to reduce drag, AND also being tough enough to withstand the full range of harsh sunlight, temperature/moisture extremes, and high-speed dust and microdebris that all aircraft are expected to operate it. Games Workshop may be a rip-off, but I suspect even folks used to such extortion would suffer more than a little bit of sticker shock if they ever had to spring for any quantity of aviation paint.
I used to volunteer with the crew that restored static display aircraft at China Lake NAWS.  We used the same polyurethane paint that the active squadrons used.  I don't know how expensive it was.  It clogged guns pretty readily and pretty much laughed at solvents, short of MEK. On the other hand, cleaning up the mixing buckets was easy.  Wait a week.  It didn't form a strong bond with whatever plastic is preferred for 5 gallon buckets. I watched a guy pull an inch thick disk of the stuff out of the bottom of a bucket with no problem.  I could barely cut that stuff with a knife! 

Ben Rich's book, Stealth mentions a conversation where he suggested painting the A-12 black to increase its thermal emissivity, and keep the interior cooler.  Kelly Johnson grumbled that they were trying get the weight down, and here's Ben trying to add 600 lbs of paint.

I bring that up because when we were restoring an AH-1J at China lake , I found at least three different paint colors as I was sanding.  Between that poly paint's sheer disdain for most solvents and all the little nibs and nubs on an aircraft, I have to imagine most planes just get the old paint scuffed, and new stuff right over it several times in their life.   I shudder to think how many coats of paint might be on some of the B-52 out there...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 10 July 2020, 14:59:38
I shudder to think how many coats of paint might be on some of the B-52 out there...
Fordite armor plating perhaps?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 10 July 2020, 19:51:56
I shudder to think how many coats of paint might be on some of the B-52 out there...
don't worry it will keep flying, might add structural support
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 11 July 2020, 23:36:10
That's actually the big driver for the engine upgrades.  Cheaper to re-engine than to beadblast 70 years of paint off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 July 2020, 03:53:55
Watching The Running Man!! Called it the prequel to the Hunger Games to a generation younger....they understood it better.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 12 July 2020, 15:15:20
Wrong thread?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 14 July 2020, 09:34:36
I had no idea this sort of thing was still out here...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121990112/treasure-trove-of-hidden-historic-planes-including-rare-wwii-mosquito-to-see-the-light?fbclid=IwAR2RMAAFh1je8qp-vQfC3wwyr9GMC02QnY3Y20a27chIMiQElwM9VonPw1Y

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: God and Davion on 14 July 2020, 12:04:09
I had no idea this sort of thing was still out here...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/121990112/treasure-trove-of-hidden-historic-planes-including-rare-wwii-mosquito-to-see-the-light?fbclid=IwAR2RMAAFh1je8qp-vQfC3wwyr9GMC02QnY3Y20a27chIMiQElwM9VonPw1Y

Awesome.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 14 July 2020, 17:56:52
On one hand, it's amazing that these treasures have survived.

On the other hand, it's alarming that they only survived by luck. I know a second hand book dealer, who got asked to come over & value a deceased collection. The previous owner was known for buying up all sorts of rare sci-fi & fantasy books from the 50s & 60s, so there was much interest. When the guy I know got there, it turned out he'd put them all in cardboard boxes in an outside shed, on a property outside the city. Between a leaky roof and rodents, pretty much everything was ruined. They did salvage some lightly water & mould damaged first edition Lensmen novels (amongst other things) from near the centre of the piles, plus some other stuff, but the cost of restoration/stabilisation was going to eat most of the potential sale price.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 14 July 2020, 18:18:59
Oh the horror, I got two and a half full collections of original first editions of A Princess of Mars series by the same author of Conan fame, sad only books three and five of Conan collection. They were in a stag huntsman cabin, very dusty and still with cloth covers and those weird color photoplates.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 22 July 2020, 02:50:08
Thats not going to be easy or cheap to restore

http://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/the-b-25-history-project-acquires-rare-8-gun-b-25-strafer-nose.html
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 July 2020, 11:06:12
You know, I kept looking for the plane to be in the area, but with Covid I do not think the old warbirds are touring this year.  My kid is old enough to enjoy seeing it, but I guess I will just have to wait until next year.  He loves being on the flight path for the local small airport they have had them fly out of . . . its just surreal to hear a B-24's engines roaring as it comes right over your house for landing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 22 July 2020, 12:21:39
A B-17 and a B-24 making a 100-foot thunder run overhead was how the air show announced it was in town.  Never forget that sound of those engines.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 22 July 2020, 22:18:28
The Blue Angels are getting a new "Fat Albert".

(https://www.key.aero/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/New%20Blue%20Angels%20C-130J%20first%20flight%20Cambridge%2020-7-20%20Blue%20Angels.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 23 July 2020, 14:20:17
The Blue Angels are getting a new "Fat Albert".

(https://www.key.aero/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/New%20Blue%20Angels%20C-130J%20first%20flight%20Cambridge%2020-7-20%20Blue%20Angels.jpg)

New more updated model of the C130 and a updated paint job
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 27 July 2020, 17:39:30
Continuing on with the Blue Angels theme...one of these things is not like the others...

(https://i.imgur.com/BAvWgVQ.jpg)

The Blues have received their first F-18E. https://theaviationist.com/2020/07/27/the-blue-angels-have-received-their-first-f-a-18e-super-hornet/ (https://theaviationist.com/2020/07/27/the-blue-angels-have-received-their-first-f-a-18e-super-hornet/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: nerd on 27 July 2020, 22:48:18
And you can see the difference between the Super Hornet and the Legacy Hornet. The easy part is the intakes, but the Super Hornet is noticeably taller than the Legacy here, but that could be from the angle. Right now, the only other remaining Legacy Hornets in the Navy are in Reserve Squadrons VFA-204 and VFC-12. VFA-204 is set up to be an additional tactical squadron, while VFC-12 is an adversary squadron.

The Marines still operate 10 squadrons of Legacy Hornets, though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 July 2020, 06:52:24
I imagine when the Air Force phases out the F-16 the Thunderbirds will probably get some of the LRIP F-35As that were deemed too expensive to bring up to current standard.

That or T-7A Red Hawks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 28 July 2020, 15:11:04
i suspect by the time the USAF retires the F-16, there won't be any LRIP F-35A's around. the F-16 looks to have the staying power of the BUFF right now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 28 July 2020, 16:37:22
i suspect by the time the USAF retires the F-16, there won't be any LRIP F-35A's around. the F-16 looks to have the staying power of the BUFF right now.
That and the M16 platform.  I'll wager a steak dinner that the DoD will be using an AR-pattern weapon until we have freakin' laser rifles.  An even then, it will use AR-style ergonomics. :-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 28 July 2020, 16:56:33
That and the M16 platform.  I'll wager a steak dinner that the DoD will be using an AR-pattern weapon until we have freakin' laser rifles.  An even then, it will use AR-style ergonomics. :-)
What do you me AR-style, it will be an AR with Laser power mag and what have you...  :-)

Same Idea will have the BUFF flying as Laser platforms...

and well the Viper..  nahh they will never put lasers on a Viper
  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 28 July 2020, 17:28:16
That and the M16 platform.  I'll wager a steak dinner that the DoD will be using an AR-pattern weapon until we have freakin' laser rifles.  An even then, it will use AR-style ergonomics. :-)

That’s exactly what Palladium did in their Rifts game.  :)

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 28 July 2020, 17:47:27
F-16 airframes will eventually wear out though, faster than FREX the BUFF considering the more aggressive maneuvering they do.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 28 July 2020, 18:36:48
Same Idea will have the BUFF flying as Laser platforms...
Is anyone else thinking about Dale Brown?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 July 2020, 18:59:42
Is anyone else thinking about Dale Brown?

Even he moved on to Bones eventually, and now space planes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 July 2020, 00:23:49
That’s exactly what Palladium did in their Rifts game.  :)
As did Battlelords.  And they even had the ACR still being a thing!

F-16 airframes will eventually wear out though, faster than FREX the BUFF considering the more aggressive maneuvering they do.
True, but Vipers are still in production. Everyone's buying them, even sales to unspecified nations in Africa.  A batch for Slovakia and Bulgaria just came out in the last year, there's a big order for Taiwan, and there's other nations in both SEA and South America that are negotiating buying in on them too.

Hell at this point even Santa Claus is looking for eight birds plus spares and service contracts to replace the reindeer...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 July 2020, 01:27:30
Meanwhile, I suspect there are some B-52 and KC-135 parts that are being pulled off un-melted down derelict 707s. After all these decades, the boneyards have got to be picked completely clean of some of the bitz and pieces by now
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 29 July 2020, 01:34:55
Meanwhile, I suspect there are some B-52 and KC-135 parts that are being pulled off un-melted down derelict 707s. After all these decades, the boneyards have got to be picked completely clean of some of the bitz and pieces by now
So the US air force is entering the mad max era of battletech?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 July 2020, 01:45:36
So the US air force is entering the mad max era of battletech?
Technically it's been there for a while, but especially the BUFFs.  There was one a few years ago that was put together out of, to quote Mad Max, "parts from here, parts from there" literally.  Ghost Rider flies again.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/5384/resurrected-b-52h-ghost-rider-reenters-active-service-at-minot-afb
Originally built in 1961, and tail number 007; surely they gotta have a better name for it than Ghost Rider. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 29 July 2020, 03:44:44
I dunno ... when they say "resurrected", they had to pull out the stops.

(https://media.defense.gov/2017/Aug/10/2001791163/1088/820/0/170808-F-CG053-0010C.JPG)

Yes, that is "Ghost Rider"shortly before it's first re-awoken flight.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 29 July 2020, 09:48:38
Technically it's been there for a while, but especially the BUFFs.  There was one a few years ago that was put together out of, to quote Mad Max, "parts from here, parts from there" literally.  Ghost Rider flies again.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/5384/resurrected-b-52h-ghost-rider-reenters-active-service-at-minot-afb
Originally built in 1961, and tail number 007; surely they gotta have a better name for it than Ghost Rider.
When will the DoD just accept the reality that the BUFF will be in service for the next 200 years and do the engine and wing upgrades? :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 29 July 2020, 16:48:57
it's rumoured the recertification paperwork required would wrap around the equator 17 times ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 29 July 2020, 17:35:43
it's rumoured the recertification paperwork required would wrap around the equator 17 times ...
But this is the 21st century.  Everything is paperless!!
:-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 29 July 2020, 22:09:57
it's rumoured the recertification paperwork required would wrap around the equator 17 times ...
But this is the 21st century.  Everything is paperless!!
:-)
nah it a government agency... there is paper, and only 17times that not bad
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 29 July 2020, 22:12:07
thats only 11 CVS receipts
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Death Monkey on 29 July 2020, 22:28:46
Meanwhile, I suspect there are some B-52 and KC-135 parts that are being pulled off un-melted down derelict 707s. After all these decades, the boneyards have got to be picked completely clean of some of the bitz and pieces by now

Going by satellite images of AMARC, aside from the hundreds of military 707 variants in storage, there are ex civilian 707s, in the east side of the depot, they’re stripping for parts.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 30 July 2020, 08:56:32
nah it a government agency... there is paper, and only 17times that not bad
a friend who used to work in a civilian office supporting USN submarine maintenance said that when the weight of the paperwork equaled the weight of the part, it was ready to go. :-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 30 July 2020, 10:08:09
a friend who used to work in a civilian office supporting USN submarine maintenance said that when the weight of the paperwork equaled the weight of the part, it was ready to go. :-)

Considering I have seen the military put boxes of TP in storage b/c it was 'property' of the unit leaving a building, I believe it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 01 August 2020, 07:13:01
That and the M16 platform.  I'll wager a steak dinner that the DoD will be using an AR-pattern weapon until we have freakin' laser rifles.  An even then, it will use AR-style ergonomics. :-)

And there will still be an argument between the Air Force and the Army as to whether there should be a forward assist or not on that Laser Rifle
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 01 August 2020, 15:58:30
That’s exactly what Palladium did in their Rifts game.  :)

Ruger

You mean like the US Navy's Beachcomber Ion pulse thingy from the New Navy?

Or the 7th CAV from South America?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 01 August 2020, 18:12:34
You mean like the US Navy's Beachcomber Ion pulse thingy from the New Navy?

Or the 7th CAV from South America?

TT

The first was the M-160 ion pulse rifle. The 7th Cav’s ARP-1 plasma assault rifle took some looks from the AR-15 platform’s appearance (vaguely).

The Sovietski world book (WB36) did much the same with the AK and SVD rifles.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 01 August 2020, 20:11:03
Here we see the mother helicopter sitting with one of its chicks...

(https://i.imgur.com/kEFlPs6.jpg)

I always knew the Mi-26 was big, but that Jet Ranger really helps put it into perspective.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 August 2020, 23:09:11
The first was the M-160 ion pulse rifle. The 7th Cav’s ARP-1 plasma assault rifle took some looks from the AR-15 platform’s appearance (vaguely).

The Sovietski world book (WB36) did much the same with the AK and SVD rifles.

Ruger
the MercOps sourcebook established the first use of advanced tech by the USA was the M-20 assualt rifle, which was basically an M-4 with an underslung laser (basically a bulkier version of what would become laser pistols) golden age weaponsmiths started mass producing them three and a half centuries later as a low budget infantry weapon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 02 August 2020, 05:30:28
the MercOps sourcebook established the first use of advanced tech by the USA was the M-20 assualt rifle, which was basically an M-4 with an underslung laser (basically a bulkier version of what would become laser pistols) golden age weaponsmiths started mass producing them three and a half centuries later as a low budget infantry weapon.

That’s the other one I was trying to find yesterday! I knew I remembered a gun like that somewhere in Rifts.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 04 August 2020, 10:07:43
Here we see the mother helicopter sitting with one of its chicks...

(https://i.imgur.com/kEFlPs6.jpg)

I always knew the Mi-26 was big, but that Jet Ranger really helps put it into perspective.

How does that thing's fuselage compare with a airliner in dimensions?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 August 2020, 10:08:58
How does that thing's fuselage compare with a airliner in dimensions?

based on the visual? I'd guess at about half of a 737-800 combi.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: hoosierhick on 04 August 2020, 10:57:26
How does that thing's fuselage compare with a airliner in dimensions?

I seem to remember it being compared to a C-130 but with a rotor instead of fixed wings. I'll see if I can find the pic I saw the other day of the inside of the cargo bay.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 August 2020, 12:41:57
Not quite as big, but easily mistaken for a C-130.

(https://www.transglobalaviation.net/avimages/aircraftlarge/659_4948.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 04 August 2020, 13:23:52
I see they use the old fashioned brooms, much better choice than rubber or plastic ones.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 08 August 2020, 09:26:07
Took some pics at a airport that this Lear had just flown into that day.  Kudos to anyone who knows the significance of this plane and its famous owner.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 08 August 2020, 09:34:02
IIRC it was flown by Neil Armstrong, but I don't know if he own it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 08 August 2020, 09:40:41
Yeah I guess it was more accurately billed as "Neil Armstrong's" record setting plane.  It was donated to the Neil Armstrong museum in Ohio.  I was at KAXV the day that it came in.  Unfortunately I was busy doing my flying job when it came in and they had the ceremony but they did let me sit in it after I got back.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 08 August 2020, 15:02:08
Apart from being the prototype, did he really own it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 08 August 2020, 15:31:19
You know, now I am starting to wonder the semantics of what i was told. I was told it was "Neil Armstrong's airplane that he set records in" does this mean he owned it? Or does it mean the same thing as Chuck Yeager's Bell X-1 that he broke the sound barrier with?  I will find out more the next time i go to that airports and talk with the manager.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 08 August 2020, 15:46:00
Either way, an incredibly cool piece of history to be touching!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 08 August 2020, 16:40:23
Yeah there was even 300pounds of fuel left in it.  But they just couldnt see clear to letting me taking it up and around the pattern for a quick one.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 09 August 2020, 22:51:34
Neil Armstrong flew the plane and set new records in
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 10 August 2020, 10:15:35
Anyobe able to confirm if this pic is real?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: qc mech3 on 10 August 2020, 10:28:02
 :o :o :o

 :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

 :toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 10 August 2020, 12:18:12
I guess the system worked as advertised.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 10 August 2020, 13:05:15
Anyobe able to confirm if this pic is real?
Well I would say yes... Foam fills airport hanger after system malfunction
From Auburn Maine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o31HaUpyRJA)
Lufthansa hangar at the Auburn-Lewiston Municipal airport in Maine accidentally went off, trapping four people inside. Luckily the crew members were able to escape to higher ground and avoid the onslaught of foam with minor injuries. By the time the system was shut off the foam had reached heights of up to 8 meters.

“At one point, a truck driving through the foam appeared to hit the building. Foam poured onto the lawn around the hangar and onto cars in the parking lot, looking like out-of-season snowbanks,” reported the Sun Journal at the time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 10 August 2020, 13:42:23
That must amke for an interesting clean up job!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 August 2020, 14:44:55
How toxic is it?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 August 2020, 14:54:12
I think the risk is being suffocated by the foam, not toxicity.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 10 August 2020, 16:38:27
What if anything does it do to the aircraft or other equipment? Does it involve a poor schlub with a water hose and a lot of man-hours, or is it more intensive than that?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 10 August 2020, 16:41:23
What if anything does it do to the aircraft or other equipment? Does it involve a poor schlub with a water hose and a lot of man-hours, or is it more intensive than that?
It degreases equipment nicely. It's a heavy detergent that will bleach out your clothes if you don't rinse it off. But mostly "poor schlub".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 10 August 2020, 16:43:14
so you can get that pilots ass smell out
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 10 August 2020, 18:55:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPVkPm43HA
video with details
Quote
A fire contractor, while performing maintenance on the system, inadvertently activated the foam fire suppression system at the Minnesota National Guard's Army Aviation Support Facility in Saint Cloud, Feb. 11. The hangar floor, including 8 aircraft, was covered with 7 feet of foam as a result. The foam is soap based and should not damage the aircraft. When the foam dissipated, all aircraft and equipment in the hangar received a detailed wash.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 11 August 2020, 11:19:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPVkPm43HA
video with details
Did the system dump more foam than anticipated?  I know the foam needs to engulf whatever is burning, but this seems like it could be pretty easy for maintainers to get cutoff and trapped. Or did it produce less?  The rotors and engines of those Black Hawks look to be foam-free.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 11 August 2020, 12:49:59
I think it's less, maintainers probably shut it off before it could do full spray.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 11 August 2020, 12:56:10
Well the 1 at the L/A airport had 8m of foam in the hanger before cut off so I'm guessing they got it cut off early. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 August 2020, 08:24:15
An Su-57 Felon under construction at Sukhoi’s Yuri Gagarin factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

(https://www.key.aero/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/UAC%20Russia%20Su%2057.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Van Gogh on 05 September 2020, 08:41:52
When collectors get a little carried away... It's no AMARG, but the owner of a vintage motorcycle collection near Beaune, in Burgundy has quite a few warbirds (mostly jets, a few helicopters) in his backyard : Mirages, Ouragans, F100, Yaks, various MiGs and Mils... I'm far from having all the names, but trying to recognise them all is fun :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: BairdEC on 05 September 2020, 10:12:09
Found it- Musees du Chateau de Savigny-les-Beaune [47.060346, 4.819158].  That's a nice start to an air museum.

https://www.chateau-savigny.com/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 September 2020, 10:39:53
Well, must be a airshow in Texas this weekend . . . I was outside this morning and a light bomber, hard to tell with the sun and its shiny paint job reflecting all the AM sun on a cloudless morning but I think it was a B-25 Mitchell.  Saw one last year around this time headed south for San Antonio I think.

WHOEVER was flying had to be having some fun because they came in off the normal flight path . . . at tree top height.  You can always tell when WWII planes are coming, my house is well insulated and never hear the jets or smaller civil planes . . . but the warbirds can be heard.  I was already outside, but my 4 y/o comes busting out the front door- AIRPLANE!

It looped back around out of sight b/c of trees in the way then flew over the house again as a Wildcat or Hellcat in Navy colors showed up.  They both went around again . . . and then the Mitchell put down the landing gear for its approach.  After the Navy fighter went around one more time before landing I went back inside.  Came back out for the last thing to put in the car and a red fighter- P40 I think?- came in from the NW for the approach.  Oddly enough, its engine seemed quieter.

Unfortunately, we could not find any public notice of a airshow in OUR town which is why I think one is in Texas.  We get a lot of overflights on Saturday mornings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 05 September 2020, 13:50:33
Found it- Musees du Chateau de Savigny-les-Beaune [47.060346, 4.819158].  That's a nice start to an air museum.

https://www.chateau-savigny.com/

There's a Mirage IV there! World's 9th nuclear power  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 06 September 2020, 02:12:24
There is also Mirage 2000 D/N in exactly the same colours as the model I built 25 years ago
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 13 September 2020, 09:55:44
A co-worker and I were dropping off a rental car after a business trip when we happened to spot something at our local airport:

The “Sentimental Journey”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimental_Journey_(aircraft) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimental_Journey_(aircraft))

My co-worker hadn’t realized how relatively small those bombers were back then.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 13 September 2020, 10:20:27
My co-worker hadn’t realized how relatively small those bombers were back then.
So very much this, and not just the bombers!

The Mosquito was a heavy fighter/light bomber:

Length: 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in (16.51 m)
Height: 17 ft 5 in (5.31 m)
Empty weight: 14,300 lb (6,486 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,340 kg)

And then compare this to one of the smallest modern fighters:

Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Empty weight: 6,800 kg (14,991 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)

Yeah, it's not just the warships that's been growing...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 September 2020, 04:46:19
Anyone know what the takeoff and landing distances for an old Canberra are?  I can find info on the RB model with the giant wings, but that's not the version I'm looking for.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 September 2020, 07:55:44
So very much this, and not just the bombers!

The Mosquito was a heavy fighter/light bomber:

Length: 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in (16.51 m)
Height: 17 ft 5 in (5.31 m)
Empty weight: 14,300 lb (6,486 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,340 kg)

And then compare this to one of the smallest modern fighters:

Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Empty weight: 6,800 kg (14,991 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)

Yeah, it's not just the warships that's been growing...


Physically large...but very light compared to modern fighters.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 29 September 2020, 08:03:11
Pretty close to the same weight, actually. 6.5 tons to 6.8 empty (11.3 to 14.0 full load). Half a meter shorter, twice the wingspan.

But look at the size of a fighter with comparable role like the F15E!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 29 September 2020, 11:01:01
I've got every single book in the Wingman and it's sequel series up to date. Can one really drop that much from a Guppy?

Cause I've gotten into arguments with a pilot friend that said it's impossible to drop that much load from that plane in flight.

So, can it be done? I know the Herc and Galaxy can do it, but a Guppy?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 29 September 2020, 11:45:53
generally the answer to the question "can [plane] do [thing from Wingman Novels]?" is "no"

that book series has very little grounding in actual aviation information (or politics, or military, etc). reality gives way to 'rule of cool' in order to tell the story.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 29 September 2020, 13:05:52
Well in Battletech, a black navy Warship, can land... once. After that, it's the repeat processions that kill it.

Which is why I stated it could do so, but for what reasons?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 September 2020, 13:08:54
generally the answer to the question "can [plane] do [thing from Wingman Novels]?" is "no"
I read most of one of those.  It was the one with the Vice President being a Soviet mole, WWIII happening, and Wingman flying a B1 over Russia and being rescued by a Soviet soldier declaring "Me good Russian."  Oh and he mastered flying a V-22 in a day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 29 September 2020, 13:19:39
Not to mention get a flotilla of tugs to pull a nuke carrier, fighting alongside of Bulldog jarheads, flying cover for Crunch O'Malley and his Phantom company and being friends with Louis  St. Louis the Chicago man. Or helping out wherever there's trouble.

Yeah most of that was like a 14 year wannabe pilot dream. Then reality sets in and your term paper is due in an hour and it takes like three days to do an average one...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 29 September 2020, 14:33:44
I feel like I need to find some of these, just for the comedy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 September 2020, 15:01:38
You really should.  I still remember the time Wingman invented an M-shaped missile rail to allow the F-16 to carry 14 AIM-9s.  It's in that same book as WWIII, I'm dead serious.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 September 2020, 15:02:51
This sounds more and more like the author used GI Joe cartoons as reference material.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: greatsarcasmo on 29 September 2020, 15:05:59
Late to the thread but Wingman was a staple of mine growing up. Still remember my #1 was a misprint and it repeated itself in the middle after the General nuked Baltimore.

Also, six M61s in an F16.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 September 2020, 18:44:34
Anyone know what the takeoff and landing distances for an old Canberra are?  I can find info on the RB model with the giant wings, but that's not the version I'm looking for.

It... depends? Headwind or tail wind? How heavily loaded? What altitude and ambient air temperature?

There are some flight manuals available for a few bucks that seem likely to contain the detailed information you're looking for. From a flight sim mod package, it looks like the stall speed is a sedate 83 kts with gear and flaps down, so I imagine the real limitation for landing run are going to be the effectiveness of the brakes and the pilot's ability to dump lift when entering ground effect with those giant wings. The Canberra doesn't look like it's equipped with spoilers, although I think they probably would have come in handy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 September 2020, 18:54:07
General limits, I suppose, would be primary things - I've got a fictional airfield setting in mind and I'm trying to make it as small as believably possible.  Too small to convert the squadron stationed there from Meteors to Canberras is what I'm trying for.  At the moment, from the flight envelope data I found a Meteor can get airborne in 390m at 0 wind on a temperate day, and around 700m on a hot-and-heavy.

The recon Canberras were like the U2; it got into ground effect and you'd have to stall the thing repeatedly to get it to land.  I'm hoping the bomber versions were a little less gliderlike.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 29 September 2020, 21:43:18
Not to mention get a flotilla of tugs to pull a nuke carrier, fighting alongside of Bulldog jarheads, flying cover for Crunch O'Malley and his Phantom company and being friends with Louis  St. Louis the Chicago man. Or helping out wherever there's trouble.

Yeah most of that was like a 14 year wannabe pilot dream. Then reality sets in and your term paper is due in an hour and it takes like three days to do an average one...

TT
yeah, they're mindless action books, not too dissimilar to the Mack Bolan and related franchises, or the Deathlands post apoc books. just with Pilots and planes instead of Commandos and guns. basically modern Pulp novels. there seem to be a number of such franchises that have been going strong since the 70's, and they often make battletech's Immortal Warrior stuff seem sound a well thought out story.. you can usually find whole bookshelves full of such franchises in used book stores, sold cheap.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 30 September 2020, 01:35:33
General limits, I suppose, would be primary things - I've got a fictional airfield setting in mind and I'm trying to make it as small as believably possible.  Too small to convert the squadron stationed there from Meteors to Canberras is what I'm trying for.  At the moment, from the flight envelope data I found a Meteor can get airborne in 390m at 0 wind on a temperate day, and around 700m on a hot-and-heavy.

The recon Canberras were like the U2; it got into ground effect and you'd have to stall the thing repeatedly to get it to land.  I'm hoping the bomber versions were a little less gliderlike.

If the airfield is too small, a lack of facilities like hangars would preclude you from using Canberras.  ;)

As would a runway not rated for their greater weight
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 30 September 2020, 18:00:09
And that's why I turn to you guys, because I didn't even consider the weight issue.  Hah.  Perfect.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 September 2020, 19:59:28
There was a B1B refit idea that would of turned the B1 into a missile truck and carry 24 or more of Amramms. But that isn't going to be built
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 01 October 2020, 09:43:20
Everyone OK thankfully

KC-130 crew did a magnificent job

https://news.usni.org/2020/09/29/marine-f-35b-crashes-after-collision-with-kc-130-over-california-all-aircrew-recovered-safely
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 October 2020, 11:25:58
. . . they often make battletech's Immortal Warrior stuff seem sound a well thought out story..

Lol, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 October 2020, 16:09:14
Everyone OK thankfully

KC-130 crew did a magnificent job

https://news.usni.org/2020/09/29/marine-f-35b-crashes-after-collision-with-kc-130-over-california-all-aircrew-recovered-safely

Wait, why is there a picture of the KC-130 in a farm field if it managed to make an emergency landing at an airport?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 01 October 2020, 16:17:13
Wait, why is there a picture of the KC-130 in a farm field if it managed to make an emergency landing at an airport?

The article said near the airport rather than at the airport
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 01 October 2020, 17:09:27
The article said near the airport rather than at the airport

The plane brought here crew down safely. A awesome plane and a skilled flight crew.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 October 2020, 17:30:34
The article said near the airport rather than at the airport

Well, so it does.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 06 October 2020, 15:30:56
Rotor hub of a CH-53 put into perspective:

(https://i.imgur.com/7iR3t.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Andras on 06 October 2020, 16:48:48
There was a B1B refit idea that would of turned the B1 into a missile truck and carry 24 or more of Amramms. But that isn't going to be built

In the novel The Sixth Battle a squadron of B1s unloaded 180+ AIM120s on a couple backfire regiments. The EW officer was yelling F-16 class radar and the Regiment CO was like 'F-16s over the Indian Ocean?'
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Orin J. on 09 October 2020, 01:11:32
Rotor hub of a CH-53 put into perspective:

(https://i.imgur.com/7iR3t.jpg)

"Would you like to ride the teacups, Phil?"

"Don't even &%* joke Ellis!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 09 October 2020, 02:28:17
That is a sea stallion, right? Google says so at least and it has more than 3 paddles
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 09 October 2020, 03:59:23
Seven blades is a Super Stallion, but yeah.  Big dang helo.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 13 October 2020, 11:17:19
An unexploded Tallboy bomb from the 617 Sqdn raid that sank the Lutzow has detonated during an attempt to disable it. No one was hurt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54522203 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54522203)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 13 October 2020, 23:10:51
That's a heck of a blast.  Good thing everyone was safe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 14 October 2020, 00:17:44
Given that it started as deflagration it was probably significantly reduced, compared to the original yield.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 October 2020, 00:26:11
Sure makes that scene at the end of Rambo 5 more believable, when you see one of these things going off in what amounts to a fizzle.  Big bloody bomb, that.  Glad nobody was hurt.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/4e/59/ed4e59934e85d92ddf79f2e0ed643d7b.jpg)

Tallboy being prepared for a Lancaster, a small possibility that that's the very same bomb we saw detonated.   The raid on Lutzow was April 16, 1945.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 15 October 2020, 21:18:04
Don't any pictures of it, but I got to assist a B 17 today on ATC. N3193G was having radio reception issues, so i basically got to play middleman between them and Memphis Center for a little bit.  Totally wish i would have been close enough to see them, but I think they could have outrun my C177 easily if I tried to intercept.   
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 16 October 2020, 00:54:20
Watched a vid of the  Tallboy explosion and it was quite impressive.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 October 2020, 19:44:57
Watched a vid of the  Tallboy explosion and it was quite impressive.

That is a big explosion.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 October 2020, 13:50:53
I have so many questions.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: BairdEC on 17 October 2020, 13:55:12
I have so many questions.

I bet his commander does, too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 October 2020, 14:10:06
I bet his commander does, too.
If there is a god of irony, that's a "caution: low flying aircraft" sign.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 17 October 2020, 14:40:42
There was a joke during the Cold war that pilots training in low level flying regularly returned with pieces of pine tops stuck in the aircraft.

Commander: ''You are officially reprimanded for flying below minimum safety level.''
Pilot: ''Oh come on, you can't just give me reprimand just because mechanics found some pine needles on the aircraft..''
Commander: ''Pine? That was a BLOODY FERN!!!''
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 17 October 2020, 15:16:06
If there is a god of irony, that's a "caution: low flying aircraft" sign.
My guess: Sign on road near airport. Fastenings had rusted away. One aircraft passes over and turbulence rips the sign into the air, second aircraft hits it before it drops down.

Thought that's not nearly as "fun" as the aircraft actually flying at 5' over the road! ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 17 October 2020, 16:17:13
There was a joke during the Cold war that pilots training in low level flying regularly returned with pieces of pine tops stuck in the aircraft.

Commander: ''You are officially reprimanded for flying below minimum safety level.''
Pilot: ''Oh come on, you can't just give me reprimand just because mechanics found some pine needles on the aircraft..''
Commander: ''Pine? That was a BLOODY FERN!!!''

I assume in Cold War RAF TacAir, pilots would be reprimanded if they didn't on account of flying above the minimum safety level. It's a minor wonder they even bothered with pressurization systems given the operational envelope for some of those aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 17 October 2020, 16:47:11
I remember being on an RAF base in the '80s as an ari cadet and hearing a story that the gate guards had requested that the bar above the gate be lowered as a safety measure because of low-flying aircraft.
Station C.O.: "You're worried that a plane will hit it?"
Guard: "No sir. We want to stop the Buccaneer pilots from flying under it!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 October 2020, 19:41:58
Worth reposting, these.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 19 October 2020, 12:56:34
There was a joke during the Cold war that pilots training in low level flying regularly returned with pieces of pine tops stuck in the aircraft.

Commander: ''You are officially reprimanded for flying below minimum safety level.''
Pilot: ''Oh come on, you can't just give me reprimand just because mechanics found some pine needles on the aircraft..''
Commander: ''Pine? That was a BLOODY FERN!!!''
A former USN helo pilot told me about a Mishap report he saw one day.  An A6 was going along at a low, but not "tree top" altitude, when one engine died.  So the crew declared an emergency and executed a single engine landing. Investigation found FOD, specifically, FISH.  A fish got sucked into the engine.  The investigation decided that a bird had grabbed the fish and was flying off, and it dropped the fish. 
Without any corroborating evidence, I have to write this one off as a fish story, but a good one none the less.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 October 2020, 13:16:26
Sounds fishy (pun intended).  A fish small enough to be carried by an osprey or bald eagle should have passed through the engine rather easily, right?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 19 October 2020, 13:42:23
Sounds fishy (pun intended).  A fish small enough to be carried by an osprey or bald eagle should have passed through the engine rather easily, right?

That's a lot of FOD and at a substantial impact velocity.  Just the impact, even if squishy might damage a turbine blade enough so that it's out of spec. And out of spec at tens of thousands of RPM are super exciting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 October 2020, 13:47:58
Sounds fishy (pun intended).  A fish small enough to be carried by an osprey or bald eagle should have passed through the engine rather easily, right?
not really, they can carry some pretty big fish. they've been seen picking up and carrying fish as big as themselves.. and these are not small birds.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 October 2020, 14:19:33
not really, they can carry some pretty big fish. they've been seen picking up and carrying fish as big as themselves.. and these are not small birds.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/ad/3a/9ead3a1a417cfa1973bc7f2edd83b6a0.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 October 2020, 19:59:50
not really, they can carry some pretty big fish. they've been seen picking up and carrying fish as big as themselves.. and these are not small birds.

I'm aware of that, but I thought that the turbines on military jets were rated for more durability due to the risk of things like shrapnel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 19 October 2020, 21:41:50
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/ad/3a/9ead3a1a417cfa1973bc7f2edd83b6a0.jpg)

In light of the prior story, I feel like that osprey has decided he's going to shoot down a plane and the fish is very upset about being drafted into the air to air missile corps.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 November 2020, 01:54:23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQgg7k13ZSE

Northrop F-5, probably an A model, doing flight and runway tests on a sod grass airstrip.  I did not realize these were rough-field capable, but hey the more you know!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 10 November 2020, 22:51:29
Question I had today: post Vietnam War, how many times have US warplanes shot down a hostile enemy aircraft using gunfire instead of missiles?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 11 November 2020, 12:17:44
ONLY documented time I can think it might have happened was Desert Storm . . . and then I still think it was missiles.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 11 November 2020, 12:22:23
There was that A-10 that shot down a helicopter with it's gun in Desert Storm.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 November 2020, 19:04:50
I'm going to count that one, so "as recent as the first Gulf War" counts.  On that note, I'm still hoping to hear this particular explanation someday.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 11 November 2020, 19:15:13
I'm going to count that one, so "as recent as the first Gulf War" counts.  On that note, I'm still hoping to hear this particular explanation someday.

Turn rate?  given that we've never lost an F-22 or F-35, much less lost one in combat, much less to friendly fire, I kinda suspect those two are 'kills' made in exercises that weren't expected by the exercise planners.

either that, or someone with a stencil and a sense of humour.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 11 November 2020, 23:43:14
That's an F-16, not an F-35.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 12 November 2020, 11:28:32
That's an F-16, not an F-35.

You sure? I thought the bell-nozzle on an F-16 gets behind the tail surfaces, and the wing isn't the right shape..?  Not to mention the inlet placement?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 November 2020, 15:18:38
You sure?

Yes. The silhouettes are definitely an F-22 and an F-16.

Here's both compared to an F-35:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/iE3aJStjYm2Y51o3dWuOwgLn6ms4Pvn6PJNv0Nrz4Ko.jpg?auto=webp&s=fd1ee5b169610945adbb99b02bbe2e85c15fbd57)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 November 2020, 16:05:15
Its a F16. Would love to know the story of a A10 "killing" a F22 and a F16. I guess if it flew right in front of the gun and oops....simulated.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 13 November 2020, 16:16:18
Its a F16. Would love to know the story of a A10 "killing" a F22 and a F16. I guess if it flew right in front of the gun and oops....simulated.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 13 November 2020, 16:29:19
Or on the airfield.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 13 November 2020, 16:41:43
Or on the airfield.

If I'm standing on the airfield, either something has gone horribly wrong, or someone in the factory ****** up and it needs to be fixed yesterday.

(which has happened before-I spent a month once going from plane to plane replacing wing-root bolts that had been overtorqued.  even with supplementary air you still  end up getting high as hell in two inches of Jet Fuel in a confined space, and the smell when you get home...I had an all-body rash every night  when I got home and sometimes I still smell it in my sweat...)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 15 November 2020, 11:13:58
I'm going to count that one, so "as recent as the first Gulf War" counts.  On that note, I'm still hoping to hear this particular explanation someday.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/off-topic/aviation-pictures-the-fourth-generation/msg1556804/#msg1556804

edit: Not really details, but explains how/where it happened. I'd like to hear the whole story as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 November 2020, 14:20:12
The one I always wondered about was from a scenario in Jane's ATF . . . you could fly the B-2 . . . I remember sitting way up high to penetrate the air defenses and picking up fighter radars.  Been reading Old Dog.  Toggled the weapons over, hmm, my HARM is seeing that fighter radar . . . oh what the hell, let it fly.  One of those things I wonder about possibly happening IRL.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 16 November 2020, 14:56:24
The one I always wondered about was from a scenario in Jane's ATF . . . you could fly the B-2 . . . I remember sitting way up high to penetrate the air defenses and picking up fighter radars.  Been reading Old Dog.  Toggled the weapons over, hmm, my HARM is seeing that fighter radar . . . oh what the hell, let it fly.  One of those things I wonder about possibly happening IRL.

In Desert Storm, one of the B-52Gs got fragged by an AGM-88 HARM homing in on the tail gun radar - which is after all, a form of flying AAA.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/10314/the-time-a-f-4g-wild-weasels-anti-radiation-missile-blew-apart-a-b-52s-tail
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 November 2020, 15:52:48
Brown pants . . . VERY brown pants . . . or the pucker factor was so high for the crew they dropped a diamond a week later.

But yeah, I know the warhead size is way over for a fighter, but the method they use to wreck radars would also wreck a fighter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 November 2020, 19:27:07
Taking a missile and losing flight control surfaces at low level in a flying whale and not dropping just a little bit and crashing?  Distinguished Flying Cross material right there for the crew.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 16 November 2020, 20:54:18
Bailing out also wasn't an option at low level for the lower deck crew since (being on the lower deck) their ejection seats fired downwards... I think this was also an issue on the Avro Vulcan.

I'd credit part of the B-52's survival to the fact that as an air-to-ground missile, the AGM-88's warhead (although big at 66kg) is a blast/frag warhead. If it had been a continuous rod warhead like on actual anti-air missiles, the B-52 might not have had a tail left after the strike.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 November 2020, 21:10:59
Didn't the tail gun get removed at some point?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 16 November 2020, 21:41:16
Didn't the tail gun get removed at some point?
yes, they started removing them 1991, mostly because of the end of the cold war.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 16 November 2020, 23:20:57
Bailing out also wasn't an option at low level for the lower deck crew since (being on the lower deck) their ejection seats fired downwards... I think this was also an issue on the Avro Vulcan.

I'd credit part of the B-52's survival to the fact that as an air-to-ground missile, the AGM-88's warhead (although big at 66kg) is a blast/frag warhead. If it had been a continuous rod warhead like on actual anti-air missiles, the B-52 might not have had a tail left after the strike.

um, Chanman?  wrong.

do you know what the typical SAM is loaded with? let me give you a simple example: The Patriot missile, 40 kilos of explosive, wrapped in cubes of steel for fragmentation.  That's how it shoots down airplanes.  (Fly up close, explode, shrapnel rips the plane apart.)  a long rod penetrator would make a penetrator size hole in one side of the airframe, and a penetrator size hole in the other (entry and exit wound).

Airframes are low density targets and in the Buffs case, low density with lots of redundant backups to deal with failure caused by accidents, incidents, shoddy parts and enemy fire.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 16 November 2020, 23:24:23
I'd credit part of the B-52's survival to the fact that as an air-to-ground missile, the AGM-88's warhead (although big at 66kg) is a blast/frag warhead. If it had been a continuous rod warhead like on actual anti-air missiles, the B-52 might not have had a tail left after the strike.
I imagine you're right, though

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/pop.h-cdn.co/assets/17/31/640x505/gallery-1501608375-1408284320041.jpeg?resize=640:*)

Not like it hasn't been done before, so there's procedure.  Whether you have time to handle that procedure under fire and at low altitude, well, see prior comments regarding DFC medals.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 16 November 2020, 23:44:45
um, Chanman?  wrong.

do you know what the typical SAM is loaded with? let me give you a simple example: The Patriot missile, 40 kilos of explosive, wrapped in cubes of steel for fragmentation.  That's how it shoots down airplanes.  (Fly up close, explode, shrapnel rips the plane apart.)  a long rod penetrator would make a penetrator size hole in one side of the airframe, and a penetrator size hole in the other (entry and exit wound).

Airframes are low density targets and in the Buffs case, low density with lots of redundant backups to deal with failure caused by accidents, incidents, shoddy parts and enemy fire.

It wasn't a SAM, it was an air-to-ground missile.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 16 November 2020, 23:46:31
It wasn't a SAM, it was an air-to-ground missile.

fair enough. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 17 November 2020, 00:44:47
a long rod penetrator would make a penetrator size hole in one side of the airframe, and a penetrator size hole in the other (entry and exit wound).

Airframes are low density targets and in the Buffs case, low density with lots of redundant backups to deal with failure caused by accidents, incidents, shoddy parts and enemy fire.
Continuous-rod warheads are a different thing; it's basically a bundle of rods soft-welded to each other at alternating ends so that when it detonates, the thing expands like an accordion in a circle, and cuts a target in pieces.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 17 November 2020, 00:53:22
um, Chanman?  wrong.

do you know what the typical SAM is loaded with? let me give you a simple example: The Patriot missile, 40 kilos of explosive, wrapped in cubes of steel for fragmentation.  That's how it shoots down airplanes.  (Fly up close, explode, shrapnel rips the plane apart.)  a long rod penetrator would make a penetrator size hole in one side of the airframe, and a penetrator size hole in the other (entry and exit wound).

Airframes are low density targets and in the Buffs case, low density with lots of redundant backups to deal with failure caused by accidents, incidents, shoddy parts and enemy fire.

Not penetrator rounds. Continuous rod warheads are basically the same concept as ye olde chain shot and for the same reasons. A blast/frag warhead like on the AGM-88 will give lots (and lots and lots) of small holes, but you end up with the same issue as rifle calibre and .50 cal machine guns did in WW2 and Korea - It's possible to absolutely riddle a plane with small holes without causing immediately fatal damage.

This paper on the continuous warhead of the Talos SAM mentions the lack of lethality of traditional fragmentation as the specific problem being solved by the continuous-rod warhead.

https://www.jhuapl.edu/Content/techdigest/pdf/V03-N02/03-02-Brown.pdf
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 November 2020, 15:45:16
How it works:

(https://www.tpub.com/gunners/12443_files/image1048.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: grimlock1 on 06 January 2021, 12:14:41
How it works:

(https://www.tpub.com/gunners/12443_files/image1048.jpg)
Do some SAMs still use individual fragments?  I saw an episode of Air Disasters on Science, or Discovery, and the covered the civilian aircraft that was accidentally shot down by a SAM over Ukraine.  The episode said that they were able to id the missile based on the very distinctive "I" of some of the holes.  The accompanying animation showed rows of "I" shaped pellets, interspersed with cube shaped pellets. 

Or they could have been simplifying things to the point of being wrong, and I'm just repeating incorrect information. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 January 2021, 16:49:20
after a certain point the continuous rod shatters into cubical and rectangular shrapnel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 07 January 2021, 05:44:32
I think Buk has fragmentary warhead anyway.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 07 January 2021, 06:36:10
I think heavy AA missiles usually have frag heads. As I understand it the problem is that small frags usually don't cause enough damage to kill an aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 30 January 2021, 15:24:44
The US Air Force’s bomber triad will conduct a first-of-its-kind trifecta flyover of the Raymond James Stadium as part of the opening ceremony of Super Bowl LV.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/3234969.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 30 January 2021, 15:44:20
Now THAT's some forced perspective!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 30 January 2021, 18:54:10
The US Air Force’s bomber triad will conduct a first-of-its-kind trifecta flyover of the Raymond James Stadium as part of the opening ceremony of Super Bowl LV.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/3234969.jpg)

So it's the : I'll afterburn to get there, but not enough to return, Hi! Can't see me, just a bird... and my favorite, What? So I'm big boned, what of it?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 30 January 2021, 23:30:44
I didn't realize the B-1 was still in use.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 January 2021, 05:12:52
About 60 of them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 31 January 2021, 06:09:28
I didn't realize the B-1 was still in use.

I love that no-one says that about the B-52!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 31 January 2021, 10:12:39
The number of those B-1s that are actually mission capable at any given time tends to be much lower however.   ;)

Hanger queen is a bit of an understatement!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 01 February 2021, 21:39:31
I love that no-one says that about the B-52!
Nope I expect my Grandkids someday to still see them flying in USAF
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 02 February 2021, 03:35:28
Nope I expect my Grandkids someday to still see them flying in USAF
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 02 February 2021, 17:37:24
ANS that was too  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

And that why the Federation always comes thought at the end, the B52 arrive and just drop on targets   8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 February 2021, 21:16:47
The only reason we don't see them in Battletech is because we don't have the rules for a heavy bomber like that yet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 03 February 2021, 00:01:13
The only reason we don't see them in Battletech is because we don't have the rules for a heavy bomber like that yet.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Torrent
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 03 February 2021, 01:10:51
In my headcanon three reserve squadrons still operated B-52 by the time of Periphery rebellion, but were all destroyed in Amaris coup.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 February 2021, 04:26:00
I could totally see that...  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 03 February 2021, 06:20:07
By reserve you mean frontline royal units, right?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Istal_Devalis on 03 February 2021, 09:38:21
The only reason we don't see them in Battletech is because we don't have the rules for a heavy bomber like that yet.
Internal Bomb Bay quirk turns anything into a bomber, just have to devote the cargo space.
(Whether it's an EFFECTIVE bomber is a different question)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 03 February 2021, 09:59:34
Just think the first B-52 is closer to the Wright Brothers in age than today and still flying.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 03 February 2021, 12:59:03
In my headcanon three reserve squadrons still operated B-52 by the time of Periphery rebellion, but were all destroyed in Amaris coup.
but they put them back together again from spare parts Right (https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/05/16/wise-guy-flies-again-b-52-resurrected-from-boneyard/)?   8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 February 2021, 01:54:26
(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/150996597_3642663135820650_714937616241697430_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=3&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=dCSjLYrlf80AX90_gSW&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=27c1e5e8721ee2827008fb14b76fe596&oe=60570A7A)

Saw this . . . just going to leave this here . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 22 February 2021, 03:36:04
Looks like a Locust brought down a Wolverine that got cocky.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 February 2021, 03:47:46
Still not as terrifying as the jet that had an engine explode while leaving Denver yesterday.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 February 2021, 04:26:53
Colt, I can only assume that was in Florida?  Only Florida man could pull that off...  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 22 February 2021, 08:43:59
No idea, just saw the picture . . . by the vegetation it makes me think Carolinas.

Speaking of the 777, anyone see the picture of the engine housing ring sitting in the front yard?  about 2 feet from a house?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 22 February 2021, 08:59:48
(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/150996597_3642663135820650_714937616241697430_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=3&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=dCSjLYrlf80AX90_gSW&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=27c1e5e8721ee2827008fb14b76fe596&oe=60570A7A)

Saw this . . . just going to leave this here . . .

Unfortunately the story is not as funny as the picture  :(
https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/small-plane-collides-man-lawn-mower-taylorsville/112951356/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 22 February 2021, 09:24:49
No idea, just saw the picture . . . by the vegetation it makes me think Carolinas.

Speaking of the 777, anyone see the picture of the engine housing ring sitting in the front yard?  about 2 feet from a house?

I saw it. Apparantly it landed on the parked car then rolled into the tree. The BBC has some video clips, including the burning engine as seen from inside the plane, here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894)
I'm glad the plane got down safely before anything else went wrong.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 22 February 2021, 10:47:34
Let me just say this whole deal with the 777 & the burning engine occured RIGHT as I flew back from Ecuador. Luckily my aircraft was an Airbus.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 22 February 2021, 15:40:09
I saw it. Apparantly it landed on the parked car then rolled into the tree. The BBC has some video clips, including the burning engine as seen from inside the plane, here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894)
I'm glad the plane got down safely before anything else went wrong.

Definitely a 12 on the brown pants index for everyone seated next to that wing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 22 February 2021, 17:53:03
Unfortunately the story is not as funny as the picture  :(
https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/small-plane-collides-man-lawn-mower-taylorsville/112951356/
Yikes!  No kidding... glad he survived!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 24 February 2021, 09:52:07
Fairy Barracuda found in Norway

https://xray-mag.com/content/british-ww2-torpedo-bomber-found-norwegian-fjord

I'd be surprised if they allow diving as unless they recovered the crew at the time its a war grave

The only other examples are one under restoration by the Fleet Air Museum and the remains of another pulled out of the Solent in 2019

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 28 February 2021, 08:25:56
Boom!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/28/second-world-war-bomb-detonation-damages-buildings-in-exeter
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 28 February 2021, 08:32:28
That's one big bomb...  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 28 February 2021, 12:12:18
That's one big bomb...  :o

One of these - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SC1000_bomb
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 28 February 2021, 15:15:28
Someone set us up the bomb...all your base are belong to us...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 March 2021, 14:52:32
So I have always seen the pictures of these modified planes flying.  This picture looks like it was taken when US forces took control of the plane or airbase?  Besides the grunt with a US helmet on, the guy examining it looks like US uniform though the guy w/o a shirt does not . . .

(https://wingstracksguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/junkers-ju-87-g-2-stuka-underwing-cannon-37mm.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 03 March 2021, 15:33:25
So I have always seen the pictures of these modified planes flying.  This picture looks like it was taken when US forces took control of the plane or airbase?  Besides the grunt with a US helmet on, the guy examining it looks like US uniform though the guy w/o a shirt does not . . .

(https://wingstracksguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/junkers-ju-87-g-2-stuka-underwing-cannon-37mm.jpg)

If I had to guess, I think the other guy looks British? The trousers look to be a different material compared to the similar cut Luftwaffe trousers.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 03 March 2021, 15:34:31
 that's a stuka with antitank cannons, the guy with no shirt is probably, the hat is an odd fit, looks more like some russian or RAF caps
The guy inspecting the cannon at first looks US, but no other insignia,. A quick image search showed this scene from a few feet away

Ooh never mind, a different hit says these are RAF but the helmets are weird
http://wingstracksguns.com/junkers-ju-87-g-2-stuka-underwing-cannon-37mm/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 March 2021, 15:37:27
Yeah, I was wondering N Africa but I thought these sort of came about later.  Definitely gives a idea of the size of the gunpods.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 03 March 2021, 15:41:21
Just because the picture caption says it is RAF does not actually mean they are RAF. The shirtless guy probably is, but the British never used the M1 helmet, & the guy inspecting the cannon is almost undoubtably, in my mind, US Army, Possibly USAAF.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 03 March 2021, 15:58:07
Just because the picture caption says it is RAF does not actually mean they are RAF. The shirtless guy probably is, but the British never used the M1 helmet, & the guy inspecting the cannon is almost undoubtably, in my mind, US Army, Possibly USAAF.

Damon.

Based off the style/cut of their pants as additional evidence I agree.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 March 2021, 21:09:19
Another nifty photo . . .

Recon run by a B-25 in the Bismarck Sea over a Japanese ship
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/155427554_4182184491806064_7912307379297474902_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=3&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=g5RgEx4KkOsAX_D_ROY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=085e9f3cee4f7c50b16dcad99e095e0a&oe=6064A340)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 03 March 2021, 21:34:07
Always remember to format your posts and any pictures in them to have mercy on those who do not have full-wall monitors. For example, much of that last bit of conversation made no sense whatsoever to me initially, as only two people were visible in that Stuka pic, none of them shirtless. C:-)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 March 2021, 23:14:47
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/156406545_4067064563349757_244274520344653506_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=zjJPMNE9EykAX-wdENC&_nc_oc=AQmfKXGOs8nXwABxOWUgWz-fhODYpUsDg-gIzqgck_pnD2iKqqN6njWyNPJQR3JwMQY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=503538b5450b42a66128d99042f1dc6b&oe=60664531)

Okay, how do I shrink that again?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 04 March 2021, 00:06:55
Simplest way is to use width= in the IMG tag.

So [imgG width=700]https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/156406545_4067064563349757_244274520344653506_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=zjJPMNE9EykAX-wdENC&_nc_oc=AQmfKXGOs8nXwABxOWUgWz-fhODYpUsDg-gIzqgck_pnD2iKqqN6njWyNPJQR3JwMQY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=503538b5450b42a66128d99042f1dc6b&oe=60664531[/img]

looks like this when you remove the extra capital G:

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/156406545_4067064563349757_244274520344653506_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=zjJPMNE9EykAX-wdENC&_nc_oc=AQmfKXGOs8nXwABxOWUgWz-fhODYpUsDg-gIzqgck_pnD2iKqqN6njWyNPJQR3JwMQY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=503538b5450b42a66128d99042f1dc6b&oe=60664531)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 04 March 2021, 01:16:44
Artist impression of the doomed torpedo bombers at Midway

(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/d5eca288-14a8-4067-8dc4-31fa61b7c1b5/dduy9jb-035b5000-637e-47ff-b503-76d601e4fcb0.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_952,q_75,strp/torpedo_squadron_8_by_shank117_dduy9jb-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3siaGVpZ2h0IjoiPD05NTIiLCJwYXRoIjoiXC9mXC9kNWVjYTI4OC0xNGE4LTQwNjctOGRjNC0zMWZhNjFiN2MxYjVcL2RkdXk5amItMDM1YjUwMDAtNjM3ZS00N2ZmLWI1MDMtNzZkNjAxZTRmY2IwLmpwZyIsIndpZHRoIjoiPD0xMjgwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.tvRhZJxx6RSoUCcTpeI7X6_LLU2709mTbX0gnQj8Bz4)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 04 March 2021, 20:49:48
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5c/08/f3/5c08f3a90fc86b7cc8d7cd534e53ada3.jpg)

Artist view of Graf Zepplin, Nazi Aircraft Carrier.

Anyone know what type of aircraft she would have used?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 04 March 2021, 20:59:21
Navalized ME-109s and Stukas I believe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 04 March 2021, 21:05:42
Navalized ME-109s and Stukas I believe.

Also remember seeing somewhere modified Fw-190s to be the torpedo bombers.  Trouble is I can't remember where I saw it so I would advise a mountain of salt with that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 04 March 2021, 21:28:40
(https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/3f/b3/24/5ac557da097b256f338ea7a183efbf0f32/za.pinterest.com1.jpeg)

Fw 19o w/ Fish

https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/3f/b3/24/5ac557da097b256f338ea7a183efbf0f32/za.pinterest.com1.jpeg (https://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/3f/b3/24/5ac557da097b256f338ea7a183efbf0f32/za.pinterest.com1.jpeg)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 04 March 2021, 21:52:40
That would have been an interesting air group for sure.

Any Fw-190s that survive their run can turn into additional escort. :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 05 March 2021, 01:29:22
I don't think torpedo Fw-190 were navalized, this version was made some time after Graf Zeppelin was cancelled. It was more likely intended for coastal strikes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 05 March 2021, 03:25:35
The Stuka strikes me as rather a logical conversion - did they get to folding wing variants? But that big thick wing, wide carriage, & slow airspeeds would have helped.

The idea of the Me-109, with it's narrow wheelbase, and trying to get folding mechanism into those thin wings? No. Nope. No way. Wonder how many pilots died trying to land those things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 05 March 2021, 03:35:38
I would wonder if the Graf Zepellin would have kept the Stukas, or if they would eventually be traded in for FW-190Fs at some point...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 05 March 2021, 08:11:20
Also remember seeing somewhere modified Fw-190s to be the torpedo bombers.  Trouble is I can't remember where I saw it so I would advise a mountain of salt with that.

Wasn’t it originally to be Fieseler Fi-167 biplanes as torpedo bombers for them, and then later changed to a modified Ju-87 Stuka?

That’s what I’ve always read?

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 March 2021, 09:39:58
I would wonder if the Graf Zepellin would have kept the Stukas, or if they would eventually be traded in for FW-190Fs at some point...

Damon.
i'd imagine the stuka's would have stuck around, perhaps gotten a new variant or two.

but i suspect the Me-109's would have been replaced with FW-190's in the fighter roles pretty quick.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 05 March 2021, 11:08:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOoiEbtf2w&ab_channel=WingsTV

There is a bit of swearing in this but its also amazing for the sound of the Spitfire engine.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 March 2021, 11:18:58
Nuttall's Invasion 1950 was a interesting look at what could have been the German's naval expansion if WWII had stopped before Pearl Harbor.  Early jets for land based forces while carriers still used prop planes b/c the tech had not caught up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 05 March 2021, 11:37:23
I would wonder if the Graf Zepellin would have kept the Stukas, or if they would eventually be traded in for FW-190Fs at some point...

Damon.

The issue with the air group for the Graf Zepplin was that Georing was absolutely adamant that if it flies. its HIS. Even a spotting plane on a cruiser or battleship was flown by luftwaffe personnel and Fatty was utterly opposed to supporting the navy. They had to beg and plead to get the Condor's to support the U-boat campaign and that was only done VERY grudingly and because the boss said so.

The Air group of the Zepplin was to be a mix of ME-109's, JU-87 Stuka's and the HS-123 in the torpedo strike role - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_123

And these aircraft were given VERY grudiingly and basically because Adolf said so. But even then the command arrangements were weird. The Captain commanded the ship and could order the air group to do something (hit x target etc) but that was about as much control as they'd have, the Luftwaffe commander would designate the strike group, what was going up, routing etc without naval control.

The Zepplin herself was also a TERRIBLE design, it was found she'd have a permanent 8 degree list due to being imbalanced and this could only be corrected with the additional fitting of torpedo bulges, which would have reduced her speed. Her catapults needed 15 minutes to recharge before each launch to build up enough air in their compressors, she wasted a lot of tonnage on a heavy anti-ship battery of 5.9-inch guns and for her size, her air group was small, like RN carrier group sized, without the excuse of having a hugely armoured flight deck to keep the air group small. Basically, she was rubbish.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 05 March 2021, 11:44:41
The Stuka strikes me as rather a logical conversion - did they get to folding wing variants? But that big thick wing, wide carriage, & slow airspeeds would have helped.

The idea of the Me-109, with it's narrow wheelbase, and trying to get folding mechanism into those thin wings? No. Nope. No way. Wonder how many pilots died trying to land those things.


yeah probably wouldn't even do as well as the Spitfire/Seafire, and the brits had a lot more experience
iirc thats one reason that the brits switched to US naval types later, ie corsairs and wildcat/martlet etc
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 March 2021, 11:48:53
yeah, it is notable that the Soviets, who hadn't developed carriers of their own and who were facing a need for naval aviation in the post war, ignored allied directives to scrap the ship and repaired it and towed it to Leningrad, then decided it wasn't worth keeping after all and used it for target practice. if it had been viable as a carrier you can bet they'd have found a way to keep it and refit it for their own use. they'd lack a carrier for almost another half century, before eventually setting on their odd carrier-cruiser hybrids.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 08 March 2021, 04:07:10
Wasn’t it originally to be Fieseler Fi-167 biplanes as torpedo bombers for them, and then later changed to a modified Ju-87 Stuka?

That’s what I’ve always read?

Ruger

https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/aviation/carrierbased/index.html



Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 10 March 2021, 21:40:17
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/159175221_4014914135240338_8342263218060211352_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=jIamNv_rlpEAX8z9WO9&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=dac0597208c20b603c6824360e93cdf8&oe=606E5100)

Last deployment flight of the F-14s . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 11 March 2021, 20:35:34
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/159175221_4014914135240338_8342263218060211352_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=jIamNv_rlpEAX8z9WO9&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=dac0597208c20b603c6824360e93cdf8&oe=606E5100)

Last deployment flight of the F-14s . . .

Ah, G.I. Joe...

I still got two in the original boxes! ( Got three of them for Christmas from various family members.

YY
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 March 2021, 20:50:28
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/160193421_4020235278041557_4658203937763350395_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=PJPT7yh6PewAX9AIoFl&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=68a5ae1a0f83c2069d68a6aa3479326b&oe=607197EF)

"This butt clenching tail strike occurred during at a 1990 show in Harrison, Arkansas when the pilot had just completed a loop and misjudged the pull-out. Amazingly, the MIG 17 was able to continue, completing one circuit to land, then taxied in showing nothing more than scratched paint, and the necessity for a new pair of under garments for the pilot."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 March 2021, 21:14:51
Typical Soviet equipment: "Make it simple, make it work, make MORE!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 12 March 2021, 23:06:15
"This butt clenching tail strike occurred during at a 1990 show in Harrison, Arkansas when the pilot had just completed a loop and misjudged the pull-out. Amazingly, the MIG 17 was able to continue, completing one circuit to land, then taxied in showing nothing more than scratched paint, and the necessity for a new pair of under garments for the pilot."

Oof that's no joke. I once saw Wayne Handley perform in his Oracle Turbo Raven (an absurdly overpowered airplane with a 750hp PT6 turboprop). It was amazing, demonstrating near out-of-control maneuvering that I wouldn't see again till Sean Tucker. A year later in '99 he pulled low out of a loop and crashed the plane. He broke his back through spinal compression. He recovered, but that's the unlimited class of airshow demonstrations for you.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 March 2021, 17:54:11
A link to my new ride...




http://www.clubjet.com/wp-content/gallery/falcon10-n715jc/falcon_10_jet_aircraft_N715JC_side-3mb.jpg

supposedly getting an offer letter this week for a SIC position.

After 16 months and about 2000 flight hours in a C177 cardinal, I am more than ready to move up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 March 2021, 18:08:54
Falcons are nice.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 March 2021, 18:13:30
Congrats!  That is indeed a nice looking ride!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 March 2021, 18:17:06
Congrats!  That is indeed a nice looking ride!  :thumbsup:

Thanks!  Can't wait, only took me 30 years of flying to finally get into a jet.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 March 2021, 18:28:50
A friend of mine went from commanding an F-18 squadron to the airlines.  I THINK he's happier now?  ???

My personal assessment is that if he'd stayed Navy, he could have been CNO in about 10 more years...  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 14 March 2021, 19:31:40
A friend of mine went from commanding an F-18 squadron to the airlines.  I THINK he's happier now?  ???

My personal assessment is that if he'd stayed Navy, he could have been CNO in about 10 more years...  :-\

IMHO military life is rough on families. One of the reasons I didn't go career is because of that, & I REALLY wanted a family. He might think the same?

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 March 2021, 19:43:24
yeah I know a few people that got out of the military just short of 20 years (one was a full Bird Colonel).  Some of them it was only about 6 or 12 months to go.

I went to USAFA a long time ago and got out because I was still a short sighted teen at the time and had convinced myself that I no longer wanted to be a pilot.  Well I wasn't forced to stay in the desert for 40 years before getting the chance again...only 30.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 March 2021, 20:05:05
I've managed 4 kids and 28 years so far... one more tour will get me to 31 (weirdness due to who knows what with my commissioning paperwork). I've got friends trying to get me to retire NOW, but I think I've beaten them off.  One more tour might actually make a difference... we'll see how it goes...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 March 2021, 20:40:01
Thanks!  Can't wait, only took me 30 years of flying to finally get into a jet.

Do you already have type cert or is that upcoming? Who are you training with? Flight Safety? Pan Am?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 14 March 2021, 20:57:21
Do you already have type cert or is that upcoming? Who are you training with? Flight Safety? Pan Am?

Yeah that's the funny thing, I already have a Type rating scholarship for a Cessna Citation Ultra.  Taking that at CAE down in Dallas the last couple weeks of April.  I applied to one company that flies Ultras only and never even heard back from them.  This company I did get a position with flies a few Falcon 10s and a couple Falcon 50s.  They gave me a job pretty much on the spot and are also adjusting training schedules so that I can go get the Ultra rating still. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 March 2021, 23:28:58
So you'll have two type ratings in the end? Nice.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 15 March 2021, 04:16:28
A friend of mine went from commanding an F-18 squadron to the airlines.  I THINK he's happier now?  ???

My personal assessment is that if he'd stayed Navy, he could have been CNO in about 10 more years...  :-\

But would he still be flying as CNO?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 15 March 2021, 16:41:16
Only as a passenger...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 25 March 2021, 09:12:07
A comparison of the Spirit and the Raider:

(https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2021/02/Comparing_Stealth_Bombers-1024x479.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 09 April 2021, 14:12:19
Today South Korea rolled out prototype of its first indigenous fighter aircraft, the KF-21 Boramae.

(https://www.janes.com/images/default-source/news-images/fg_3938864-jdw-11454.jpg?sfvrsn=85affc70_2)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 09 April 2021, 14:14:39
In other news, the USAF took delivery of it's first F-15EX Eagle II Wednesday.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/Boeing%20F-15EX%20Eagle%20II%20%5BUSAF%20-%20Samuel%20King%20Jr%5D%204.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 April 2021, 04:51:52
How about the Baby F-22 from South Korea the KF-21

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 April 2021, 10:39:08
From some the pics of it being assembled I've seen. Looks like they have room to fit an internal bay and additional stealth shaping to it for a full stealth craft.. but I can see the partial stealth current version selling well outside korea to people wanting to avoid F-35s and F-16s, but don't want aRafales or Gripens.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 12 April 2021, 13:08:24
Why didn't I notice this sooner?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 April 2021, 19:33:57
Why didn't I notice this sooner?

Old Pepsi Logo???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 18 April 2021, 07:15:41
Plane ditches in ocean during Florida airshow. No one reported to be injured. Video in link.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-56792530 (ftp://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-56792530)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 April 2021, 07:33:17
Heck, I think they might be able to get the plane flying again without too much work...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 18 April 2021, 11:37:11
Cut the beach goers out of the picture and you can put in the caption ''Pacific 1944 - colorized''.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 April 2021, 14:02:06
True, true...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: nerd on 18 April 2021, 19:45:02
It's a TBM, at this point, it's a salvageable airframe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 18 April 2021, 21:50:47
at least those were designed to handle emergency water landings, that makes the likelyhood that the plane can be returned to flying condition a lot better.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 April 2021, 03:15:39
The prop doesn't even look too bent up...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 19 April 2021, 14:11:49
It's like air and radio waves work the same everywhere or something.  :D

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-46fMxs7JgIM/YHtlfDCd1II/AAAAAAAAAQE/KGG241sQ7FEPJERAA-j2trxA0DX6Tk3GgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1296/EvYjkk5WQAUMZIP.jpg)

Top: KAI KF-21 prototype
Middle: Shenyang J-20
Bottom: Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin technology demonstrator

Not shown: The difference in size.

The KF-21 is about the length of a classic F/A-18 Hornet and is in a similar weight range as that or the Typhoon/Rafale and has similar engine power as the Typhoon or Super Hornet

The J-20 is 4ft longer than an F-22 and very similar in weight with similar power engines. The definitive engine fit supposed to be closer to the F-35's F135 rather than the F-22's F119, so the J-20 might be draggier or heavier than estimated

The X-2 is tiny. It's about the same length as a T-38 although its supposed weight puts it in the range of an F-16. The engines look like an odd intermediate size, maybe closest to the Honeywell engines in the Taiwanese F-CK-1
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 April 2021, 15:42:27
honestly i wouldn't be surprised if the X-2 doesn't get bigger when they start work on a non-tech-demonstrator version. i could see them going for something comparable to their F-2 fighter (which is a slightly larger F-16). they seem fairly happy with their F-15's, but they didn't have many F-2's (which they weren't terribly happy about to begin with) and most of the ones they had were damaged in that tsunami in 2011. they've repaired a fair number by now but getting a replacement is probably high on their minds.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 April 2021, 15:43:27
Cut the beach goers out of the picture and you can put in the caption ''Pacific 1944 - colorized''.

That right there is what's bothering me right now as a pilot. I don't have any particular judgment and won't till the NTSB wraps up a report, but I'm not sure how I feel about the pilot's proximity to the shoreline relative to the number of swimmers he flew over? adjacent to? and what went into the decision. Again, no judgement. I don't know remotely enough. But it is tickling a lot of my safety/emergency antennae.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 19 April 2021, 15:48:54
honestly i wouldn't be surprised if the X-2 doesn't get bigger when they start work on a non-tech-demonstrator version. i could see them going for something comparable to their F-2 fighter (which is a slightly larger F-16). they seem fairly happy with their F-15's, but they didn't have many F-2's (which they weren't terribly happy about to begin with) and most of the ones they had were damaged in that tsunami in 2011. they've repaired a fair number by now but getting a replacement is probably high on their minds.

It definitely would be bigger if they want to you know, arm it. Let alone doing it with internal bays. You can see how much volume those take up in photos of the J-20 and F-22 with the bays open and those two are gigantic compared to most other fighters
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 23 April 2021, 15:10:33
An Israeli Apache in a snowy environment. Weird enough to share.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/Boeing%20AH-64A%20%27Peten%27%20%5BIAF%20-%20Amit%20Agronov%5D%201.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 23 April 2021, 15:16:13
Training at a US base?  I mean that could easily be Utah playing games out there . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 23 April 2021, 16:20:47
Or high parts of Golan, they get snow there regularly
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 23 April 2021, 17:13:54
That's the first I've ever heard of the Golan getting snow... ever...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 23 April 2021, 17:47:41
It does snow occasionally in that part of the world, especially at higher altitudes. In one of my reference books I have a photo of an Israeli M113 grinding through snow as well. Also, I recall Cairo got snowfall a few years ago. Unusual, but it does happen from time to time.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 23 April 2021, 17:51:04
Checking Google, it seems the snow in Cairo in 2013 was the first time in 112 years.  So I guess it happens...  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 28 April 2021, 04:19:07
This is pure warnography of the highest order, turn the sound on and up

https://imgur.com/gallery/Ex09JBk
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 28 April 2021, 04:28:37
Did they ask the Spitfire pilot to mow the grass? Man, he was low.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 28 April 2021, 05:38:45
Did they ask the Spitfire pilot to mow the grass? Man, he was low.

That's nothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOoiEbtf2w&ab_channel=WingsTV

THAT is low. You don't even spot it until the last moment really.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DaveMac on 28 April 2021, 09:56:37
Heck, I think they might be able to get the plane flying again without too much work...

Don't kid yourself

Thats probably years of work right there

Even if it looks undamaged its got to be stripped back to make sure

And thats before the complications of salt water...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 28 April 2021, 10:58:44
That's nothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOoiEbtf2w&ab_channel=WingsTV

THAT is low. You don't even spot it until the last moment really.
The Merlin engine that came on afterwards was educational and entertaining as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYcKdK7hmEo
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Liam's Ghost on 28 April 2021, 16:09:43
This is pure warnography of the highest order, turn the sound on and up

https://imgur.com/gallery/Ex09JBk

Heh, "Submarine Spitfire". Have to fly a little lower for that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 28 April 2021, 17:53:24
This is pure warnography of the highest order, turn the sound on and up

https://imgur.com/gallery/Ex09JBk
SWEET video Marauder!  :thumbsup:

And Sharpnel, that was pretty cool too!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 28 April 2021, 20:57:49
Missed my chance to hear this happen live ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS7Hc5QZO_U

(I love the fact that the 'howl' was apparently a complete accident of airflow - which isn't to say that it wasn't appreciated by many!)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 29 April 2021, 04:05:21
Missed my chance to hear this happen live ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS7Hc5QZO_U

(I love the fact that the 'howl' was apparently a complete accident of airflow - which isn't to say that it wasn't appreciated by many!)

Yeah the howl's basically due to the setup of the air intakes and at certain throttle settings the air and the turbines combine to make the distinctive howl.

The F-104 Shooting(crashing)star also howled and there's a good vid of it here.

https://youtu.be/vdDoKosn-88?t=153

The howling starts at 2.35 and again its due to the arrangement of the air intakes and how the air's interacting with the turbine blades at certain throttle settings. It still sounds weirdly organic though and is quite awesome!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 29 April 2021, 08:08:45
Yeah the howl's basically due to the setup of the air intakes and at certain throttle settings the air and the turbines combine to make the distinctive howl.

The F-104 Shooting(crashing)star also howled and there's a good vid of it here.

https://youtu.be/vdDoKosn-88?t=153

The howling starts at 2.35 and again its due to the arrangement of the air intakes and how the air's interacting with the turbine blades at certain throttle settings. It still sounds weirdly organic though and is quite awesome!

Its the sound of all those old tubrojets, not  like the Turbofans like today and also try to keep it a little quieter and more efficient. The sound of the old jets was so much nicer but louder and boy does it hurt your ears.
Its funny how tech changes over the sound of engines. I work for the airlines and hearing the roar and rumble of a old DC-9 taking off it was loud and you knew it was coming. Then when the Boeing 777 took off after it, it had more of hum when it go started and got louder wouldn't really change much until the plane was about side by side with you then the sound of a normal engine would be there. In all honest the 777 engine was almost 6 to 7 times the thrust of that DC9 and it was quieter.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Middcore on 29 April 2021, 10:04:02
The F-104 Shooting(crashing)star also howled and there's a good vid of it here.

The F-104's nickname was Starfighter. Shooting Star was the F-80/T-33 family.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 29 April 2021, 14:19:30
A Gannet folding its wings

https://imgur.com/gallery/cfGyhuA
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 April 2021, 16:36:30
Yikes!  Two hinges per wing (in the same axis) seems a little excessive...  :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sabelkatten on 30 April 2021, 01:56:13
I'm guessing it had to do with the limited height of the hangars on RN carriers?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 30 April 2021, 02:37:39
Man, that Czech Hind in the Xenomorph paintjob never stops looking good

(https://i.imgur.com/1CeSsYG.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: nerd on 01 May 2021, 20:58:21
A Gannet folding its wings

https://imgur.com/gallery/cfGyhuA
Still a very ugly aircraft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 01 May 2021, 23:49:03
Still a very ugly aircraft.

*laughs in Blackburn Blackburn*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tow1xHV_knI
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 02 May 2021, 01:55:30
IIRC  none of the Blackburn flock were decent looking
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 02 May 2021, 02:08:15
IMHO the Firebrand was decently good looking ...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Blackburn_TF_Mk._IV.jpg)

But I won't hear a bad word against the naval strike aircraft and part-time lawnmower that is the Buccaneer

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/O3lXeSf-ZQo/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 02 May 2021, 02:39:50
forgot about the buccaneer
that firebrand looks like a Hawker design
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 02 May 2021, 02:55:39
Centaurus radial engine - same same.

Still, admittedly, they did screw up the Firecrest, derivative of the Firebrand.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/69/91/b869916e31dd0cd08607a95b114cbc78.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 02 May 2021, 13:14:07
Have you aviation enthusiasts heard of Finland's HX Fighter Program? Finnish Air Force is replacing its current 55 F-18C and seven F-18D fighters by 2030 and the new fighters should serve into the 2060's.

The five competitors for the ~10 billion € contract of about 64 fighters (and the other bits) are:
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II
Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet/Growler
Saab JAS 39 Gripen E
Dassault Rafale
BAE-Systems Eurofighter Typhoon

(https://ruotuvaki.fi/documents/1951245/0/4044_1000x682.jpg/59817f97-5b05-54c0-2501-b8df8d58f3c2?t=1616068782336)

Final offers were made last month and the plane will be selected within a year if I recall correctly. Saab has offered full complement of 64 Gripen E plus two GlobalEye AWACS planes as an extra. Boeing has offered 50 F/A-18E Super Hornets and 14 F/A-18G Growlers. Lockheed has not disclosed how many F-35 they offered but their "It's not how many you have but how good they are, we'll get the running costs down in the future!" non-answer makes me suspect their offer is quite a few planes short of the ideal 64. BAE and Dassault haven't disclosed what they have offered so it's likely that they haven't offered the full 64 planes either.

Personally I'm rooting for the Saab's Gripen E. It's effective (if somewhat untested) and economical small package that still matches the other 4th generation alternatives' performance in areas that matter to Finland. It's essentially designed for similar needs and condition by the neighboring Sweden. I doubt the Super Hornet, Typhoon and Rafale have a real chance in the competition. My biggest worry is that the FAF is lured in by F-35's stealth paint job despite the otherwise dubious performance and cost efficiency.

Here's a fresh news article if you can understand Finnish (;)) or want to put it through google translate. There's also some nice pictures and videos there. https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11906884
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 May 2021, 14:39:54
I only know one word in Finnish and it's one I think that the people responsible for maintaining the aircraft will be using a lot if the Finnish government goes with the F-35.  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 02 May 2021, 15:02:37
I only know one word in Finnish and it's one I think that the people responsible for maintaining the aircraft will be using a lot if the Finnish government goes with the F-35.  ;D
Hah, yeah ;D. Same would go for whoever has to explain the cost of that maintenance to the politicians. Even the old F-18Cs ended up costing twice as much over their service life as was originally estimated and that's a pretty straight forward plane in comparison.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 May 2021, 15:21:23
The support costs are always the money maker.  That's why I personally would reject the "free" AWACS...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 02 May 2021, 15:47:04
The support costs are always the money maker.  That's why I personally would reject the "free" AWACS...
Yeah. I'm not sure if the 64 Gripens actually fit the budget with money to spare of if the two Globaleyes were included as force multipliers for the wargames that should have a big impact on the winner of the contest. At least the Saab stuff should be cheapest of the lot to maintain from what I have understood and Globaleye is built on a commercial Bombardier Global Express frame so that part at least should be relatively easy to maintain. Nice thing about Saab is that if something just doesn't work you can always fuel up and fly the plane over the Baltic Sea and make the Swedes fix it ;D.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 02 May 2021, 15:56:08
I mean, it's Saab-BAE these days.

I'm still waiting to see what Canada's going to do for a Classic Hornet replacement. Eurofighter and Dassault have ruled themselves out - I think both had an issue with the tech-sharing with the US required by NORAD and Dassault also had an impasse over industrial offsets.

The original 'interim' Super Hornet plan has been scuppered due to deteriorating relations with Boeing, which also rules out Eagle IIs.
The F-35 is probably inherently off-the-board unless there have been some massive changes - the idea of a flyoff / competition bid was planned after the original sole-source F-35 contract was cancelled.

By my count, that leaves the new F-16 variants (ironically, they have a higher fly-away cost than the F-35 now, but hopefully cheaper maintenance) vs. the Gripen-E. Although if replacement is delayed enough, maybe the KAI KF-21 would be possible - assuming both a smooth development cycle and no hangups with the NORAD tech-sharing requirements.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 02 May 2021, 15:57:58
Nice thing about Saab is that if something just doesn't work you can always fuel up and fly the plane over the Baltic Sea and make the Swedes fix it ;D.

I had the exact same thought! :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 02 May 2021, 16:35:51
I mean, it's Saab-BAE these days.

I'm still waiting to see what Canada's going to do for a Classic Hornet replacement. Eurofighter and Dassault have ruled themselves out - I think both had an issue with the tech-sharing with the US required by NORAD and Dassault also had an impasse over industrial offsets.

The original 'interim' Super Hornet plan has been scuppered due to deteriorating relations with Boeing, which also rules out Eagle IIs.
The F-35 is probably inherently off-the-board unless there have been some massive changes - the idea of a flyoff / competition bid was planned after the original sole-source F-35 contract was cancelled.

By my count, that leaves the new F-16 variants (ironically, they have a higher fly-away cost than the F-35 now, but hopefully cheaper maintenance) vs. the Gripen-E. Although if replacement is delayed enough, maybe the KAI KF-21 would be possible - assuming both a smooth development cycle and no hangups with the NORAD tech-sharing requirements.
How is Canada of all places having so much trouble getting offers? Unluckily for Canada even the F-16 could be off the table if there's any chance of F-35 being accepted since Lockheed would rather sell their expensive mistake in hopes of making that disaster recuperate at least some of the expenses over the next century through economy of scale.

The HX program originally send offer requests for F-15 and F-16 as well but received no offers. The other five on the other hand have been pushed and lobbied with amusing enthusiasm despite the Finnish demands that some of the building and assembly be done in Finland. I was googling the HX today and the first search result was paid F-35 advertisement by Martin Lockheed (not sure what they hope to achieve by advertising those to the general population ;D). The various aviation shows where the potential fighters have been on display over the last few years have been nice as well.

In general Finland has never had much trouble getting aircraft. Back in the late 80's when the current fighters were being selected we were offered earlier Saab Gripen from the neutral Sweden, F-16 and F/A-18 from the US, Dassault Mirage 2000 from France and Mig-29 from the then Soviet Union (none of them were old or downgrade models either as far as I know).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 02 May 2021, 22:53:20
How is Canada of all places having so much trouble getting offers? Unluckily for Canada even the F-16 could be off the table if there's any chance of F-35 being accepted since Lockheed would rather sell their expensive mistake in hopes of making that disaster recuperate at least some of the expenses over the next century through economy of scale.

The HX program originally send offer requests for F-15 and F-16 as well but received no offers. The other five on the other hand have been pushed and lobbied with amusing enthusiasm despite the Finnish demands that some of the building and assembly be done in Finland. I was googling the HX today and the first search result was paid F-35 advertisement by Martin Lockheed (not sure what they hope to achieve by advertising those to the general population ;D). The various aviation shows where the potential fighters have been on display over the last few years have been nice as well.

In general Finland has never had much trouble getting aircraft. Back in the late 80's when the current fighters were being selected we were offered earlier Saab Gripen from the neutral Sweden, F-16 and F/A-18 from the US, Dassault Mirage 2000 from France and Mig-29 from the then Soviet Union (none of them were old or downgrade models either as far as I know).

It's not uncommon for contracts to stipulate some degree of local or license production.

Like I said, I'm surprised it caused an issue with Dassault, but that might have been a technology transfer/subsidy level issue. For example, when looking for a new rifle for the Rangers, some manufacturers declined to bid due to the requirement that the actual manufacturing be done by Colt Canada along with a broad license for what they would be allowed to do with the Technical Data Package.

As for Eurofighter, see above about tech-sharing in NORAD. There also just aren't that many makers of modern combat aircraft around. As for Lockheed, while they may prefer the F-35 to F-16 sales, they'll make it back on the support contracts. Getting another F-16 sale still beats not getting any sales at all.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 03 May 2021, 00:11:45
How is Canada of all places having so much trouble getting offers?

The whole fighter replacement program here is a big, deep pile of Rule 4, both internally and internationally.  Ever step into a mud pit so bad you just want to throw the boots out after?  It's that bad.

So in other news (marching firmly away from this topic)... I've seen increasing mention of "buddy drones" for fighters.  Anyone have good news and/or resources on these programs?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 May 2021, 00:49:20
The whole fighter replacement program here is a big, deep pile of Rule 4, both internally and internationally.  Ever step into a mud pit so bad you just want to throw the boots out after?  It's that bad.

So in other news (marching firmly away from this topic)... I've seen increasing mention of "buddy drones" for fighters.  Anyone have good news and/or resources on these programs?

Just the Sea King replacement all over again. As for 'buddy drones' - it's so that no fighter jockey ever has to suffer drinking alone  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 03 May 2021, 01:08:09
The whole fighter replacement program here is a big, deep pile of Rule 4, both internally and internationally.  Ever step into a mud pit so bad you just want to throw the boots out after?  It's that bad.

So in other news (marching firmly away from this topic)... I've seen increasing mention of "buddy drones" for fighters.  Anyone have good news and/or resources on these programs?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Wing_Loong_II_side_view.jpg/800px-Wing_Loong_II_side_view.jpg)

Also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_aircraft_carrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_aircraft_carrier) ( Bottom )

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 03 May 2021, 03:35:28
The manned-unmanned theory can easily be seen in the airbus "sell the idea" videos (FCAS):

Basic fighter+drones idea:
https://www.airbus.com/defence/fcas.html

Longer video with more integrated systems.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4Y-JX8Zuc

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 03 May 2021, 10:30:22
Let's see.  Japan has its vocaloids, we have AIs being worked on and now we want drone air power.  Didn't we see how well this turned out in Macross Plus already?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 May 2021, 10:41:40
Let's see.  Japan has its vocaloids, we have AIs being worked on and now we want drone air power.  Didn't we see how well this turned out in Macross Plus already?

Awesome gigantic mecha?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 03 May 2021, 10:57:43
Let's see.  Japan has its vocaloids, we have AIs being worked on and now we want drone air power.  Didn't we see how well this turned out in Macross Plus already?

And Terminator.

And Stealth.

And Screamers.

And Star Trek Picard.

And...well, you get the idea.

Ruger

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 03 May 2021, 11:18:10
I suspect in 50 years the fighter pilot will be little more than a legally obliged dead man's switch for the largely autonomous drones that do all the actual fighting. That is if restrictions on autonomous weapons haven't been entirely scrapped by then...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 May 2021, 13:12:49
That depends on how cyberwarfare progresses.  It's potentially possible that drones will wind up being shown to be too vulnerable to hacking.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 May 2021, 13:30:07
Just so long as they don't come with an Order 66 feature...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 May 2021, 16:23:17
Oooh... it's buzzword bingo!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 07 May 2021, 12:25:44
From the days of when both jets AND pilots were a lot cheaper  ;)
(Not that the photo is from those times - it's from 2017)

(https://www.defencetalk.com/military/photos/usaf-f-86-sabre-fighter.50931/full?d=1514062893)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 May 2021, 16:41:43
Wait a second... does that lead plane have "Hell Er Bust X" on its side?  Do I even want to know what happened to I-IX?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 07 May 2021, 17:07:58
It needs to swap tail codes with its buddy, FU-666 is worth that nose art!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 May 2021, 17:36:38
LOL!  I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 08 May 2021, 00:03:47
Wait a second... does that lead plane have "Hell Er Bust X" on its side?  Do I even want to know what happened to I-IX?  ???

When planes and pilots were a LOT cheaper  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 May 2021, 03:17:26
Touché!  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 08 May 2021, 04:13:40
This is pretty darn amazing and some very lucky people with a skilled pilot

https://imgur.com/gallery/zdMQcdU

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 May 2021, 06:23:08
Amazing indeed!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 08 May 2021, 15:56:07
HOSHIT, that landing roll across the dirt road... :yikes:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 09 May 2021, 04:58:05
Wow, what a video.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 May 2021, 10:36:49
HOSHIT, that landing roll across the dirt road... :yikes:

I can't believe the plane didn't flip.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 09 May 2021, 10:55:04
I'm trying to figure out how he pulled that off... it was certainly bouncing enough to flip!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 09 May 2021, 11:22:24
Really lucky weight distribution? It looked like they had a fair amount of stuff towards the back when he swung the camera to show the missing door?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 09 May 2021, 12:09:07
They were very lucky those roads had no ditches of any kind. Other than that it seemed like a fine airfield by 1915 standards ;). Can anyone recognize what plane that is? I'm wondering if it has landing flaps and what kind of wheels it has.

I wonder if the pilot still had full control when they landed... Doing a crash landing on some random field seems incredibly risky decisions unless the plane was going down anyway because of the damage. That landing speed also looked really high which makes me wonder if a slower speed would have caused the plane to roll uncontrollably or something like that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Middcore on 09 May 2021, 12:29:49
Full video (approx 9 minutes) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3aFdFBwu0

Incident report from the AAIB (UK version of the FAA) is here: https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-mooney-m20k-g-osus

The plane is a Mooney M20: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_M20
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 09 May 2021, 12:41:06
Talk about complete research!  :o  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 09 May 2021, 12:55:06
Full video (approx 9 minutes) is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3aFdFBwu0

Incident report from the AAIB (UK version of the FAA) is here: https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-mooney-m20k-g-osus

The plane is a Mooney M20: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_M20
Thanks! So it was an actual airfield that they were landing on (imgur description seems to be as accurate as can be expected ;D). Quick glance at the report seems to confirm that higher than usual landing speed was due to handling problems and that's probably also why they went over the two roads into what I guess was still part of the "extended" runway.

edit. I guess I also accidentally roasted the British calling their actual airfield "fine by 1915 standards". I don't understand how that island is still floating...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 09 May 2021, 13:02:18
edit. I guess I also accidentally roasted the British calling their actual airfield "fine by 1915 standards". I don't understand how that island is still floating...

That's OK, mate - I live here, and I don't understand either sometimes. :-) And I believe a lot of the more rural airfields are more field than air ...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Middcore on 09 May 2021, 13:03:50
Talk about complete research!  :o  :thumbsup:

You give me too much credit, link to the full vid was in the Imgur comments.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 09 May 2021, 14:05:21
That's OK, mate - I live here, and I don't understand either sometimes. :-) And I believe a lot of the more rural airfields are more field than air ...
Hah, well, at least it's a field ;)! I remember seeing an episode of some gold digger reality tv shows (the stuff that Discovery and History churn out) where some Alaskan/Canadian delivery pilot landed and took off from a curving dirt road surrounded by trees on both sides.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 09 May 2021, 14:22:04
You give me too much credit, link to the full vid was in the Imgur comments.
Just because it was easy doesn't mean you weren't the first to bring it here...  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 09 May 2021, 17:05:21
Hah, well, at least it's a field ;)! I remember seeing an episode of some gold digger reality tv shows (the stuff that Discovery and History churn out) where some Alaskan/Canadian delivery pilot landed and took off from a curving dirt road surrounded by trees on both sides.

You think that's crazy, you should see some of the videos of what the bush pilots were doing in the 20s and 30s.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 09 May 2021, 17:35:44
You think that's crazy, you should see some of the videos of what the bush pilots were doing in the 20s and 30s.
Yeah, the aviation safety standards from training and aircraft to airfields (or the lack thereof) really were something else back then and even more so in WW1.

I don't remember which ace it was that shot down an enemy plane and, lacking witnesses but really wanting the kill confirmed, landed in the no man's land to rip off a machine gun from the downed plane then took off and returned home with the gun as evidence. Pretty much any field was about as good as the designated airfields so those guys were landing just about anywhere if need be.

Speaking of early aviation, here's a cool air combat scene from the movie Wings released in 1927 and shot long before special effects really became the easy option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrVY8ukOl88
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 09 May 2021, 18:25:32
Yeah, the aviation safety standards from training and aircraft to airfields (or the lack thereof) really were something else back then and even more so in WW1.

I don't remember which ace it was that shot down an enemy plane and, lacking witnesses but really wanting the kill confirmed, landed in the no man's land to rip off a machine gun from the downed plane then took off and returned home with the gun as evidence. Pretty much any field was about as good as the designated airfields so those guys were landing just about anywhere if need be.

Speaking of early aviation, here's a cool air combat scene from the movie Wings released in 1927 and shot long before special effects really became the easy option: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrVY8ukOl88

[edit: Replaced original comment that had been ninja'd]

One step below airport, we still have uncontrolled air fields and air parks in Canada that are just fields. This one was near me (land owner had some redevelopment plans and has since declined to renew the lease) and I had no idea it existed until an ultralight had to make an emergency landing on the highway one time a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF93ncp1IbA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF93ncp1IbA)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 May 2021, 15:14:41
Always thought the Monney M-20 had a forward swept vertical tail....it looks like it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 10 May 2021, 15:30:00
[edit: Replaced original comment that had been ninja'd]

One step below airport, we still have uncontrolled air fields and air parks in Canada that are just fields. This one was near me (land owner had some redevelopment plans and has since declined to renew the lease) and I had no idea it existed until an ultralight had to make an emergency landing on the highway one time a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF93ncp1IbA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF93ncp1IbA)
I don't even know which is more hazardous there, the two power-lines the planes have to cross on landing and take off, or the fact that people driving on that road are probably not paying much attention to the traffic when a plane flies over the road at 30 meter altitude and disappears behind a hedge ;D.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 12 May 2021, 23:41:36
Looks like I need to " spice " things up a bit, eh?

(https://yeahmotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/aircraft-paint-43.jpg)

(https://yeahmotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/aircraft-paint-42.jpg)
( Heath Ledger's Joker Copter )

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 13 May 2021, 16:27:51
Looks like I need to " spice " things up a bit, eh?

(https://yeahmotor.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/aircraft-paint-43.jpg)

TT

As a tanker, isn't that one of your normal predators in the food chain of dakka?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 May 2021, 17:03:43
I think the implication is that Santa no longer brings coal for the bad kids . . . but BURRRRRRTTTT.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 13 May 2021, 17:56:31
As a tanker, isn't that one of your normal predators in the food chain of dakka?

Yeah well... it's gotta catch me first!

Lighter than 50 tons, I can hide in Light Woods with Terrain... Heavier, I have friends!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 13 May 2021, 19:42:01
I think the implication is that Santa no longer brings coal for the bad kids . . . but BURRRRRRTTTT.
I hope you have to be TT level of  >:D to get Santa Nick to bring that out
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 13 May 2021, 20:19:51
I think the implication is that Santa no longer brings coal for the bad kids . . . but BURRRRRRTTTT.

I hope you have to be TT level of  >:D to get Santa Nick to bring that out

Would Canned Sunshine be a bit much? Secret Santa as it may, reminds you of someone... Bertram Habeas anyone?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 14 May 2021, 00:18:29
The wonderfully complex weapons bay on a F-102 Delta Dagger

https://imgur.com/gallery/9x5KdHu
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 14 May 2021, 00:32:54
That's a gorgeous bit of film, thanks! Show how advanced things were way back when.

And makes perfect sense in terms of the F-102's job to fly in a straight line towards the incoming Soviet bomber fleets, and then engage.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: nerd on 14 May 2021, 10:02:27
Nice on that bay. It looks complex, but I'm not sure the F-22's are much simpler, just more reliable.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 May 2021, 13:06:24
You guys see the results of a midair between a Metro and Cirrus? It’s… a lot.

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/35c24f82a949aefde89abfbe0e7669cf.png)

https://jalopnik.com/planes-parachute-saves-the-day-after-two-planes-collide-1846892007
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 16:06:32
THAT guy landed... what about the OTHER guy??  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 14 May 2021, 16:20:25
THAT guy landed... what about the OTHER guy??  :o
Airplane parachute.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 16:22:20
Was there really enough airplane LEFT to deploy a parachute? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 14 May 2021, 16:23:22
Was there really enough airplane LEFT to deploy a parachute? ???
Picture in the article. Not a great one, but you can see the cockpit.

The video is much better.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 16:38:03
Holy cow!  Key Lime 970 had NO IDEA of the damage to his aircraft...  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 14 May 2021, 17:05:10
Holy cow!  Key Lime 970 had NO IDEA of the damage to his aircraft...  :o

Yeah, that was an impressive audio sample! "Seem to have had an engine failure." Dude, someone else flew into your damned plane and nearly cut it in  half!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 17:14:25
That cool radio communication had ZERO relation to the pilot's reaction when he saw the damage to his plane... Which would have been more:  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 14 May 2021, 17:25:15
Reminds me of the 1983 Negev mid-air collision where the pilot landed an F-15 with just one wing. He later said that if he had clearly seen how bad the situation was he would have probably ejected instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxJcEz3h4tU

Those whole aircraft parachutes are really smart development. I wonder if it will ever be applied to the passenger sections of commercial airliners.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 14 May 2021, 17:59:20
I'm surprised that the tail section of the Metroliner is still attached. Says something about the construction of that plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 May 2021, 18:12:02
Let alone that he still had effective pitch control.


Yeah the top half of the cirrus looks normal (well, CAPS deployment normal). Dunno about how dirty the dirty side is.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 18:12:35
I'm not too surprised an F-15 survived losing a wing... I'm more surprised the Skyhawk pilot managed to bail out!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 May 2021, 18:14:13
I'm not too surprised an F-15 survived losing a wing... I'm more surprised the Skyhawk pilot managed to bail out!  :o

Er, the way CAPS works on a cirrus is this:

(https://cirrusaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CapsSavesLives-2-640x370.jpg)


It's a ballistic parachute deployed by rocket.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 18:25:02
The CAPS makes sense... it's the A-4 pilot being able to bail after a collision like that...  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 May 2021, 18:44:27
The CAPS makes sense... it's the A-4 pilot being able to bail after a collision like that...  8)

Er, the Metro pilot? He landed his plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 14 May 2021, 18:45:02
Er, the Metro pilot? He landed his plane.
You are talking about two different incidents :).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 18:45:57
Beat me to it... I was talking about the F-15/A-4 collision...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 14 May 2021, 18:49:28
I'm reminded of the photograph of the B-52 without a tail still managing to fly and land; it's definitely an advertisement for the robustness of the airframe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 14 May 2021, 18:52:12
They really don't build 'em (or train 'em) like they used to...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 14 May 2021, 19:07:39
Beat me to it... I was talking about the F-15/A-4 collision...

Ah. When you said "Skyhawk" I thought you had confused a Cirrus with a C172.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 14 May 2021, 21:04:59
The CAPS makes sense... it's the A-4 pilot being able to bail after a collision like that...  8)

Edit: I was mistaken
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Negev_mid-air_collision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Negev_mid-air_collision)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 15 May 2021, 00:44:06
I wonder if they did create commercial " Pods " with attached Parachutes and floating rings.

Each " Pod " would be fitted so that incase of any extreme depressurization, it would seal and deploy.

Anyone remember Escape from New York movie?

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dORT6ZXKVoI/UJKNj3FUBsI/AAAAAAAAS5Q/61kBiosjWg4/s1600/Life%2BArmor.jpg)

Just a 10 - 15 person section built as a pod. ( One can even use them as pre-pressurized Cargo pods. )

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 15 May 2021, 00:50:04
So basically Eve Online.  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 May 2021, 02:59:33
I wonder if they did create commercial " Pods " with attached Parachutes and floating rings.

Each " Pod " would be fitted so that incase of any extreme depressurization, it would seal and deploy.

Anyone remember Escape from New York movie?

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dORT6ZXKVoI/UJKNj3FUBsI/AAAAAAAAS5Q/61kBiosjWg4/s1600/Life%2BArmor.jpg)

Just a 10 - 15 person section built as a pod. ( One can even use them as pre-pressurized Cargo pods. )

TT

The cockpit modules from Cowboy Bebop!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 15 May 2021, 05:38:06
Chanman: I see McDonnell Douglas engineers were thinking like the OG PTB: "...you fly fast enough and you're like a rocket. You don't need wings."  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 15 May 2021, 08:35:33
Anyone remember Escape from New York movie?

That's exactly what I started thinking about as I started reading your post!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 17 May 2021, 22:00:46
I wonder if they did create commercial " Pods " with attached Parachutes and floating rings.

Each " Pod " would be fitted so that incase of any extreme depressurization, it would seal and deploy.

Anyone remember Escape from New York movie?

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dORT6ZXKVoI/UJKNj3FUBsI/AAAAAAAAS5Q/61kBiosjWg4/s1600/Life%2BArmor.jpg)

Just a 10 - 15 person section built as a pod. ( One can even use them as pre-pressurized Cargo pods. )

TT

Yeah, I was going to make a Kurt Russell reference.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 May 2021, 14:25:12
The 124th Fighter Wing is one of dozens of Air Nationa Guard units that can trace its lineage directly to its World War Two predecessor, which in this case is the 405th Fighter Squadron. The heritage scheme applied to this Idaho ANG A-10C has been designed to replicate the liveries worn by the original P-47 Thunderbolts, which were operated by the 405th while the unit was based in Western France in 1944.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/Heritage%20A-10C.jpg)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Middcore on 18 May 2021, 14:51:14
I think their predecessor is the 405th Fighter Group?

Pity they couldn't spice it up with some of the 405th's nose art.  ^-^

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 May 2021, 16:49:59
Sadly, I don't think we'll see nose art again any time soon...  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 May 2021, 19:45:15
Not completely, there's always that resurrected Lancer they put back in service.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 May 2021, 19:56:33
That must have taken at least four levels of bureaucracy to approve...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 18 May 2021, 20:18:45
Sadly, I don't think we'll see nose art again any time soon...  :-\

A-10 ladder door art is probably the closest I've seen. Bit-ball doors on F-16's as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 18 May 2021, 22:17:03
there are many question to as here  Crew Ejects From Qatari F-15QA Fighter While On The Ground At Airport Near St. Louis (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40667/crew-ejects-from-qatari-f-15qa-fighter-while-on-the-ground-at-airport-near-st-louis?fbclid=IwAR1hbR5BOxdxSGt6kaLSZ_7UIrotn3Pzqp--t0FcPTntb-Hw_tOFv-FWjYE)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 May 2021, 22:24:52
So aside from rocket exhaust smoke really, what kind of damage can be expected from that incident?  How hard is it to refurbish a jet that's been ejected from, when nothing else seems to be broken?

It seems like the crew drove off the runway for some reason, then ejected - did the canopy system fail? 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 May 2021, 03:25:45
Probably a little harder given the rain.  Anyway, hooray for 0-0 ejection seats?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 19 May 2021, 07:13:54
there are many question to as here  Crew Ejects From Qatari F-15QA Fighter While On The Ground At Airport Near St. Louis (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40667/crew-ejects-from-qatari-f-15qa-fighter-while-on-the-ground-at-airport-near-st-louis?fbclid=IwAR1hbR5BOxdxSGt6kaLSZ_7UIrotn3Pzqp--t0FcPTntb-Hw_tOFv-FWjYE)
I guess I'm not the only one who always has trouble finding the right lever for adjusting the seat in a new vehicle.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 May 2021, 07:53:45
It was marked "PULL", so I did.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 19 May 2021, 18:55:49
So aside from rocket exhaust smoke really, what kind of damage can be expected from that incident?
Depending on that military's particular regulations, they could lose the crew. Ejections tend to cause spinal damage. The US and Canadian Air Forces ground pilots for a period of time, if not permanently, afterwards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 May 2021, 19:13:58
The aircrew were contractors, not active duty...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 25 May 2021, 08:07:49
A Mirage F1 operated by Draken US crashed shortly after takeoff from Nellis AFB yesterday. The pilot was killed.

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/F1CrashNellis_10.jpg?resize=706%2C369&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 May 2021, 08:31:30
Damn, so that's what it was.  I'd heard there was a crash but the news didn't give any info as to just what went down.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 25 May 2021, 15:52:22
That F1 looked real nice for being a non delta Mirage
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 25 May 2021, 19:43:01
F1 is one of my favorite aircraft. I have a kit of one that is going to be done up as a bird with the Fuerza Aérea Ecuatoriana during the Cenepa war.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 25 May 2021, 20:36:55
F1s are well named, they look like they're going fast even standing still.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 26 May 2021, 05:36:37
On this day, 80 years ago, Swordfish torpedo bombers from HMS Ark Royal launched two sorties against the German battleship Bismarck.

The first nearly ended in disaster but ended in a farce when the Swordfish spotted and attacked a warship, not initially knowing that it was one of their own cruisers the HMS Sheffield which had been detached to keep shadowing the Bismarck.

Fortunately for the FAA crews and the crew of the cruiser, the magnetic warheads fitted to the torpedoes mostly exploded on contact with the water, still the Sheffield had to manouver to avoid those that didn't.

The Commander of the Ark Royal's battlegroup, Admiral James Somerville reportedly used every word in his extensive inventory of swears when he heard about this mistake but didn't take any further action against any of his airmen or the Captain of the Sheffield.

The second attack, this time armed with standard contact warheads found the Bismarck shortly before sunset.  Dropping in and out of the clouds to launch their attacks the Swordfish managed to land a total of three hits, two did little damage and didn't breach the battleships torpedo defences, the third hit though did an awful lot more. Slamming into the steering compartment as the battleship was turning to avoid the attack, the hit wrecked the steering gear, jamming the rudder in a 15 degree turn. Unable to manouver the Bismarck was forced to steam in circles whilst damage control efforts were carried out to free the jammed rudder.
Unable to free the jammed rudder, the crew managed to find what kind of propeller revolutions and rudder turning on her un-jammed rudder allowed for at least some manouverability, but this left her sailing towards the RN Battleships that were chasing her and lead to her destruction.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Swordfish_%287582559196%29.jpg)

The Swordfish, often called the 'Stringbag' looked archaic with its biplane layout but when it was introduced the plane was very modern and as capable as any other navy's aircraft in the role, also capable of carrying bombs and acting as a glide bomber the Swordfish was blessed with an exceptionally short take off distance, a long range and good endurance, although it more depended on the crew in the open cockpit.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 May 2021, 17:05:48
Well told, Marauder, well told!  :thumbsup:  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 27 May 2021, 16:39:18
Mostly unrelated question: Would anyone know of a way for me to learn about any WWII Allied bomber squadrons that flew Lancasters or Halifaxes in the Mediterranean theater, without combing through the Wikipedia pages of every single RAF/RCAF/RAAF/other bomber squadron that ever existed?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 27 May 2021, 17:11:15
Mostly unrelated question: Would anyone know of a way for me to learn about any WWII Allied bomber squadrons that flew Lancasters or Halifaxes in the Mediterranean theater, without combing through the Wikipedia pages of every single RAF/RCAF/RAAF/other bomber squadron that ever existed?

Go to the regional air command and drill down. At some point, you'll find squadron/aircraft type breakdowns.

I went to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Air_Command (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Air_Command) which then lead to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._205_Group_RAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._205_Group_RAF)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_African_Strategic_Air_Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_African_Strategic_Air_Force)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_African_Coastal_Air_Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_African_Coastal_Air_Force)

Which really just gives us No. 462 Squadron (RAAF) as a Halifax operator.

There seem to have been a couple RAF sub-units that might have (No. 227 squadron - detachment/temporary assignment?, Flight No. 1575 - SOE duties). Mostly, they seem to have used Wellingtons and B-24s though. The Med was a bit of a second-line theatre in terms of equipment and I think RAF Bomber Command had dibs on all the Halifaxes and Lancasters for their attacks on Germany. Possibly the Short Stirlings as well.

Although if you want a real trip, there were still biplane fights in the Med and African theatres between Gloster Gladiators and the CR.42 Falco.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 08 June 2021, 06:55:40
The Boeing MQ-25A Stingray UAV passed fuel to a F/A-18F Super Hornet receiver aircraft on June 4th.

(https://www.janes.com/images/default-source/news-images/bsp_373-jdw-12408.jpg?sfvrsn=2efee4_2)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 08 June 2021, 11:20:40
soon drones will be refueling each other
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CranstonSnord on 08 June 2021, 12:44:09
Do you want Skynets? Because that's how you get Skynets.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 08 June 2021, 12:55:39
Do you want Skynets? Because that's how you get Skynets.

Too late!

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2Fc13634bb92f44efd1dee3d014c38638c%2Ftumblr_inline_npib75Rz9E1slq446_500.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 08 June 2021, 14:09:25
Do you want Skynets? Because that's how you get Skynets.

Worse, this is how you get Stealth.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 08 June 2021, 16:35:13
Ever worse, Macross Plus.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 June 2021, 17:11:16
The biggest threat to pilots?  Pilots complaining parts of their job are "boring"... refueling is only the first thing to go full "robot".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 08 June 2021, 18:01:33
Ever worse, Macross Plus.

Could be Yukikaze.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 10 June 2021, 04:09:25
Ya might enjoy this, the startup and taxiing of a Gannet ASW plane and its contra-rotating turboprop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBrfiYYQ8U
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 11 June 2021, 11:27:38
Ya might enjoy this, the startup and taxiing of a Gannet ASW plane and its contra-rotating turboprop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBrfiYYQ8U

I thought the Gannet was such a neat plane. I always like the prop planes at the start of the jet era. Sure the Gannet was a turboprop but I think it still fits.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 11 June 2021, 23:52:50
Worse, this is how you get Stealth.

No more like :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXzNo0vR_dU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXzNo0vR_dU)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 14 June 2021, 23:29:31
The biggest threat to pilots?  Pilots complaining parts of their job are "boring"... refueling is only the first thing to go full "robot".

I wouldn't say refueling for naval aviators is really boring as compared to USAF pilots. That drogue weighs an awful lot and can bash a canopy in or go down an intake if things don't go well...

But as these videos show, Murphy is an equal opportunity employer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsmZVAhHdHQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsmZVAhHdHQ)

Edited for more direct video linkage. And: Condolences to the crewmates and family of the Draken pilot. Sad to hear that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 15 June 2021, 03:33:42
None of the Naval Aviators I've known had any love for the buddy tanking mission.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 15 June 2021, 21:58:55
Oh, I thought you meant robots on both ends of the hookup. In any event "not boring" does not equal "fun" or "exciting", which is the point I was trying to make.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 June 2021, 23:53:57
What's the old pilot's saying?  "Flying is endless hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of sheer terror."
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 16 June 2021, 03:27:30
Tanking checks two of the three D's for automation: dull and dangerous (the third being dirty).  ISR has been there for a while, and vastly increased demand for itself as a result.  Doing the things we routinely do with Predators with manned aircraft was so cost prohibitive, we never even contemplated doing those things before.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 21 June 2021, 15:51:59
But sometimes you need to intercept suspicious flying saucers...

https://www.deviantart.com/alfredsson/art/Swedish-UFO-Interception-16815960 (https://www.deviantart.com/alfredsson/art/Swedish-UFO-Interception-16815960)
(https://i.redd.it/fjdzyquvsw571.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 21 June 2021, 16:00:56
Related:

(https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/7/73/UP004.gif)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 22 June 2021, 15:14:33
The last two posts contained one of my favourite jets and one of my favoutite PC games of all times  :smitten:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 July 2021, 15:53:00
The USAF released a new rendering of the B-21 Raider. The first flight of the Raider prototype is currently anticipated to take place in May 2022.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/New%20B-21%20artwork%20over%20Edwards%20-%20crop%20released%206-7-21%20USAF.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 08 July 2021, 06:34:50
The USAF released a new rendering of the B-21 Raider. The first flight of the Raider prototype is currently anticipated to take place in May 2022.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/New%20B-21%20artwork%20over%20Edwards%20-%20crop%20released%206-7-21%20USAF.JPG)

The B21 Raider is just a smaller B2. But if it works then just rebuild it
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 08 July 2021, 07:17:37
There is 30 years of technology development since B2, rebuilding it would be as complex as designing a new plane but perhaps not as efficient, so by designing a brand new plane, while using lessons learned from B2 enables you to make maximum use of the technological advancements.
Also USA has by far the largest military budget in the world, so it can do it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 14 July 2021, 20:53:58
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/212478087_4164445563591067_1652818456628769501_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=rvSvW8oCiqMAX8O3n8-&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=15a345451a3f363f5da0e694d9febe4b&oe=60F41B79)

"There's a reason for the puzzled expression exhibited by Major Loren W. Herway, Indianola, Iowa, shown examining the damage inflicted on his 9th Air Force P-47 Thunderbolt by a direct hit from 88 mm. flak.

He's still wondering how the P-47, with supercharger, hydraulic system and rudder controls battered, held together to permit a belly landing.

Major Herway managed the crippled plane back to his base, circled the field for fifteen minutes while ambulances, crash trucks, and firemen assembled, then made a belly landing, skidding 500 yards.

As service men were towing the plane away, the entire tail assembly fell away.

It was the 124th combat mission for the 23 year old squadron commander of the 362nd fighter group."


As for the B-2 . . . it is the same sort of discussion about restarting the Apollo boosters . . . and why that was not feasible so Musk had to build a rocket from scratch.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 15 July 2021, 00:24:58
There is 30 years of technology development since B2, rebuilding it would be as complex as designing a new plane but perhaps not as efficient, so by designing a brand new plane, while using lessons learned from B2 enables you to make maximum use of the technological advancements.
Also USA has by far the largest military budget in the world, so it can do it.

meanwhile the B52 is slated to remain in operation til 2050, and possibly longer if the re-engineing plans go through.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 15 July 2021, 01:17:18
Kind of weird that we've now hit a point where the lifespan of a combat aircraft is potentially longer than that of its pilot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 July 2021, 09:06:19
Kind of weird that we've now hit a point where the lifespan of a combat aircraft is potentially longer than that of its pilot.

Reason is simple, it is a 'mature' technology . . . it is about the apex for a bomb truck and further developments would be avionics, materials (replace structure), or in engines . . . none of which really change the frame or shape.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 15 July 2021, 17:01:31
meanwhile the B52 is slated to remain in operation til 2050, and possibly longer if the re-engineing plans go through.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a8/71/c3/a871c3f0b33784b09ee7ee25a5bb9bdb.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 17 July 2021, 15:21:04
Sukhoi has developed a new single-engine stealth fighter. The jet, which Sukhoi apparently refers to as “Checkmate,” reportedly will make its debut at the MAKS air show in Moscow next week.

(https://hushkit.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/image-3.png?w=451)

(https://www.19fortyfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Russia-New-Stealth-Fighter-.jpg)

Gotta wait a few days to see it "naked".   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 17 July 2021, 15:29:47
looks like similar lines to the short lived Douglas-BAE proposal for the JSF..
(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/jsf/jast_mdd_ng_bae_01.jpg)
(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/jsf/jast_mdd_ng_bae_06.jpg)
(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/jsf/jast_mdd_ng_bae_05.jpg)

i wonder if this new fighter will be a conventional jet or a STOVL like the Yak's and JSF..
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 18 July 2021, 19:36:44
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41596/russias-new-fighter-design-seen-uncovered-for-the-first-time

Have an article about the new jet including its first unveiled video clip.  Single TV engine supposedly, but not appearing to show any kind of a STOVL/VTOL system.  More will come shortly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 July 2021, 00:41:52
interesting. if it is thrust vectoring, it must not have much off axis movement range given those tails.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 July 2021, 16:57:53
another leaked picture
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 July 2021, 21:54:22
Some scale models showing it's relative size compared to an Su-57:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6n3CcOVUAI3j6M.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: phoenixalpha on 20 July 2021, 02:23:01
another leaked picture

Why does this remind me of a Clan Omnifighter from the Clan invasion period?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 20 July 2021, 06:24:21
It's like less ugly X-32
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 20 July 2021, 13:52:37
Exactly my thought. Any word on intended role - low-end of a high-low fighter mix, strike fighter, other?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 20 July 2021, 14:01:04
Exactly my thought. Any word on intended role - low-end of a high-low fighter mix, strike fighter, other?

Vapourware to suck in investment from groups that want a Mig-29 replacement and are unable or unwilling to switch to Western platforms for roles where a Flanker is too big and heavy?

So basically the Russian and Indian navies at this point...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 20 July 2021, 14:22:38
And how many Soviet carriers are operable?

I do forget how old the Mig-29 is ... 1977. Pretty bird, with short legs. And the Mig-35 (rebranded latest Mig-29) isn't exactly setting the world on fire.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 20 July 2021, 14:58:03
And how many Soviet carriers are operable?

I do forget how old the Mig-29 is ... 1977. Pretty bird, with short legs. And the Mig-35 (rebranded latest Mig-29) isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

Just the one carrier, and i'm not sure you can really call it operational.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 July 2021, 15:20:55
Just the one carrier, and i'm not sure you can really call it operational.

It is Tuesday, I forget . . . does that mean it is floating or sunk today?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 20 July 2021, 15:22:17
It is Tuesday, I forget . . . does that mean it is floating or sunk today?

Floating but tomorrow's right around the corner.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 20 July 2021, 16:30:13
And how many Soviet carriers are operable?

I do forget how old the Mig-29 is ... 1977. Pretty bird, with short legs. And the Mig-35 (rebranded latest Mig-29) isn't exactly setting the world on fire.

For some values of operable.  :D

But the INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya still need air groups. India doesn't have enough Mig-29Ks to equip both at the same time. There are also the PLAN carriers. Although I assume the PLAN will drive a harder bargain, they do only have a handful of J-15s since they're a bit of a transitional type. Replacing them with smaller dedicated STOBAR aircraft would let them fit more planes in the same space, likely better designed for the flight regime.

That's assuming the commissioning of catapult-equipped carriers don't see the Liaoning and Shandong transitioning to becoming training ships or ASW helo carriers, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 20 July 2021, 16:39:54
the chinese are working on their own stealth carrier planes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_FC-31) though, so i doubt they'd be too interested in buying russian.. unless it was for the purposes of stealing the design. which i doubt that russia will fall for this time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 20 July 2021, 17:03:45
the chinese are working on their own stealth carrier planes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_FC-31) though, so i doubt they'd be too interested in buying russian.. unless it was for the purposes of stealing the design. which i doubt that russia will fall for this time.

I don't think there's been indication of whether the FC-31 is being designed for STOBAR or CATOBAR operation. I doubt there's much worth stealing - looking at the Su-57, I think the Russians are actually behind the curve on stealth design. However, it could be a turnkey way to get a bit of extra functionality out of the early non-catapult equipped carriers with the payoff that if it doesn't work out, they can revert back to the J-15s.

Otherwise, I'm not sure if there's a large enough market to justify bringing the Checkmate project to completion unless they can make them really cheap compared to Su-30s
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 20 July 2021, 18:56:18
In this video there's some interesting discussion about the Su-75 Checkmate including a third(?) hand rumor that it would cost about 1/3 of what F-35 currently costs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlRR129-W_8

I do like the concept of Checkmate, it's like a 5th generation JAS 39 (small, cheap, capable, good bang for the buck) or an F-35 that didn't fail at most of what it originally tried to do (at least it hasn't failed yet anyway). Remains to be seen how it actually turns out in the next ten to fifteen years. If they can deliver even 80% of what they promise, that is going to be one amazing aircraft and pretty much a no-brainer for anyone who can choose it politically. I'm pretty skeptical about the whole package though as they are promising a lot.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 July 2021, 19:03:03
It's built for export and marketed as a low cost alternative to the F-35. Then again so was the Shenyang FC-31. Nine years later and they have yet to sell a single one of those. And I'd bet real money that everything except the engines on the Gyrfalcon is better than the Checkmate (for all they do well, China can't seem to make a jet engine worth two shits).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 July 2021, 19:16:12
More pics:

(https://www.aerotime.aero/upload/files/1250x420/sukhoi_checkmate_crop.jpg)

(https://www.thedrive.com/content/2021/07/SUKHOI_CHECKMATE_PLANFORM-scaled.jpg?quality=85&width=1440&quality=70)

(https://www.reuters.com/resizer/FHv4fTErrJYEqWFufzpJ_l_MXG4=/960x0/filters:quality(80)/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/MK4ASILSVZIE7B75ZHWJ5LOO2Y.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 21 July 2021, 03:53:03
Nice looking aircraft at least.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 21 July 2021, 14:12:56
With the Mig-29 almost 45 years old, and the derivative Mig-35 not catching attention, it may be a Sukhoi play to become "the" Russian aircraft industry. They hold the high end interceptor, they hold the strike fighter, they hold the interdictor. What's MiG done lately that's worked?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 21 July 2021, 15:19:04
With the Mig-29 almost 45 years old, and the derivative Mig-35 not catching attention, it may be a Sukhoi play to become "the" Russian aircraft industry. They hold the high end interceptor, they hold the strike fighter, they hold the interdictor. What's MiG done lately that's worked?

They were already both been merged (among others) into United Aircraft Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Aircraft_Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Aircraft_Corporation)) some 15 years ago in a very BAE move.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 21 July 2021, 15:28:30
They were already both been merged (among others) into United Aircraft Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Aircraft_Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Aircraft_Corporation)) some 15 years ago in a very BAE move.

Wasn't UAC responsible for everything that went wrong on Mars, Phobos, and Deimos in the original Doom?  >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 July 2021, 16:48:58
That would make entirely too much sense...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 21 July 2021, 17:59:13
It's built for export and marketed as a low cost alternative to the F-35. Then again so was the Shenyang FC-31. Nine years later and they have yet to sell a single one of those. And I'd bet real money that everything except the engines on the Gyrfalcon is better than the Checkmate (for all they do well, China can't seem to make a jet engine worth two shits).
given the F-22 took the better part of two decades to reach initial operational status after its prototype flights, and it took 20 years for the F-35. (and they're still working on getting that for some of the variants)
and that was for a nation that actually had extensive experience with both stealth technology and high performance fighter aircraft. China is still figuring out both, albeit with the benefit of being able to crib the notes from other countries. they seem to be taking their time to refine their designs before going into mass production.. something that is going to take time. and if you compare the initial FC-31 prototype to the version being shown off in 2020 you can see some serious improvements on par with the YF-22 to production F-22 transition, the shapes are different in many places, likely to improve performance and stealth, we know it is being fitted for a superior engine, its gone up in weight (suggesting improvements in both construction and avionics), it is using proper stealth coatings instead of integrated composite skin, and so on. which mirrors much of the changes the F-22 underwent in its first 9 years as well.

so the fact that neither the FC-31 or the J-20 haven't done much spectacular in ten years really isn't all that odd. if they haven't done anything with them by 2030, then maybe we can claim that they are dead ends.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 July 2021, 18:06:55
I'm just as guilty as everyone else here, but I think we're starting to get a little close to the Rule 4 line...  More pictures, please?  :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 21 July 2021, 18:34:36
Chiming in. I think y'all are fine so far keeping it to the design and production of the aircraft. Just don't take it to internal and foreign policy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 21 July 2021, 18:37:29
Thanks for the rudder check good sir!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 21 July 2021, 19:21:40
The F35 had a lot in common with the Yak141. I'm sure that SU75 used some of the that idea too
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 21 July 2021, 22:29:35
The only thing the F-35 has in common with the Yak 141 is the shaft driven lift fan, which Lockheed lincesed from Yakovlev.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 21 July 2021, 22:49:09
I have to say last few photo, look like something from a video game
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 July 2021, 23:14:15
Isn't that true for most modern aircraft?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 22 July 2021, 08:21:05
It's been pointed out in the past that there's a lot of overlap between Things That Have Good Aerodynamics and Things That Look Sexy On Screen.  :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 22 July 2021, 09:56:42
With the Russians and the money issues they have, lets see if that thing gets off the ground.
It is a really nice looking airplane...better looking than the SU-50 IMHO.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 26 July 2021, 11:42:49
(https://add.pics/images/2021/07/25/Snorts-Banana-Pass.jpg)

The pilot who pulled this stunt, Dale Snodgrass, died in a small airplane crash, two days ago. (https://theaviationist.com/2021/07/25/dale-snort-snodgrass/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 July 2021, 16:39:37
Wow... bummer...  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 29 July 2021, 11:01:21
(https://abload.de/img/auroram7jea.jpg)

This is now a military concept.

The German Air Force is giving the company developing the above horizontal-takeoff SSTO spaceplane - called "Aurora" - a small research grant - about 300,000 USD - to study whether they could possibly turn it into a hypersonic reconnaissance platform for them (think SR-71, just unmanned and faster). No follow-up or demonstrator or anything like that planned, it's just the new Space Command established two weeks ago shopping around for some ideas.

The company for the press release promptly also produced CG of an Aurora being refueled by an A-330 MRTT Phenix.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Top Sergeant on 05 August 2021, 19:41:03
Michigan Air National Guard was training today to land and take of from a civilian highway (State Route 32 to be precise).

Excellent training!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI3cy84b81w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ1NtzwnGwo

https://twitter.com/mspnorthernmi/status/1423274076706062338?s=20
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 20:00:56
Very cool... and the crowd was very telling too...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 05 August 2021, 20:01:02
I would love to see them do that around here, but I currently live smack dab between Philadelphia & NYC in Pennsylvania. They'd likely get gunned down from road rage here...

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 05 August 2021, 22:22:42
I would love to see them do that around here, but I currently live smack dab between Philadelphia & NYC in Pennsylvania. They'd likely get gunned down from road rage here...

Damon.

That's what all that titanium armour is for! Also, don't bring small arms to a cannonfight
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 August 2021, 22:34:17
Where I am in Oregon, Air National Guard helicopters are being deployed to assist with all the wildfires.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 05 August 2021, 22:50:48
I would love to see them do that around here, but I currently live smack dab between Philadelphia & NYC in Pennsylvania. They'd likely get gunned down from road rage here...

Damon.
A10 could survive most things a road rage shooting could involve and provide it own return fire   >:D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 06 August 2021, 01:52:44
And yes, the potential for friendly-fire incidents is proportional to rate of fire :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 06 August 2021, 11:08:35
(https://add.pics/images/2021/07/25/Snorts-Banana-Pass.jpg)

The pilot who pulled this stunt, Dale Snodgrass, died in a small airplane crash, two days ago. (https://theaviationist.com/2021/07/25/dale-snort-snodgrass/)

He was the Top Gun flyby inspiration?

Or was he asking the deck crew if something had come loose on the topside aft of the cockpit?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 06 August 2021, 13:19:13
He was the Navy demonstration pilot for F-14, so it was basically his job to do stunts like that.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 August 2021, 08:00:20
Bell initially unveiled a ducted tail rotor design for its 360 Invictus but has now opted to switch to an open tail rotor on the aircraft.

(https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/ra7k48wULcS-pdMp7Vhi1mzhVQE=/1200x0/filters:quality(100)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mco/GLSAICOUTBHWJBGDJVYWXHUKEM.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 07 August 2021, 08:50:40
Someone tell Boeing-Sikorsky that Bell is stealing their Comanche design disguised by putting wings on it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 August 2021, 08:59:11
Eh, they'll just plead convergent design or somesuch...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 07 August 2021, 12:45:04
The RAH-66 Comanche was cancelled I don't see that Bell Chopper getting built.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 07 August 2021, 13:19:38
The RAH-66 Comanche was cancelled I don't see that Bell Chopper getting built.


edited.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 August 2021, 09:28:13
An excellent discussion of the P-47: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwqTN5fhMR8

It even talks a little about logistics at the end...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 08 August 2021, 13:44:59
Michigan Air National Guard was training today to land and take of from a civilian highway (State Route 32 to be precise).

Excellent training!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI3cy84b81w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ1NtzwnGwo

https://twitter.com/mspnorthernmi/status/1423274076706062338?s=20

Hi Top, is that something new or something they've always done?

Only reason I ask is that the RAF has recently announced they are going to start doing that again having stopped it at the end of the cold war.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 08 August 2021, 14:30:30
Who needs roads?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/75qnxMd1YSY/mqdefault.jpg)

And from all accounts, ZLL was one of the safest things you could do in a Starfighter! I remember being in Frankfurt in the 80s, and having a bunker by the side of the road pointed out to me as having been for this.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 08 August 2021, 15:07:50
No operational F104G ZELL were ever built or deployed.

They didn't launch from bunkers, the German-designed launch gantry (unlike the prototype US one) was mobile and could be installed where necessary. However it required a significant amount of concrete surface underneath the aircraft during launch in order to redirect the (enormous) backblast and avoid it being sucked into the engine of the Starfighter itself.
Also definitely not in Frankfurt - there were no German military assets at all around there, the area was all-American. The only "launch bunkers" near Frankfurt were the (USAF) Matador cruise missile sites in the Eifel mountain range about 150 km west of the city, a bit north of Spangdahlem.

The aircraft in the picture (DB 127) is the German test aircraft btw, which performed two starts from Lechfeld base in Bavaria. There was another one (DA 102) that was used in five tests by Lockheed at Edwards AFB in the US.

The ZELL booster was also sorta fickle. It had to always be carried and installed at a precise angle of 27 degrees; the proper angle was actually measured with theodolites. The aircraft itself was raised to 20 degrees for launch. In the meantime it was kept at a precise temperature using mats and heaters. Per launch it also cost about the equivalent of 125,000 Dollar today, that's more than an entire intercept flight with a Eurofighter in full operating cost.

As for safety, it did have a positive effect:

The Luftwaffe introduced Martin-Baker ejection seats for the project and later deployed them fleet-wide on all F-104G. That at least kept the death rate a bit lower, given 30% of all 916 F-104G in service were destroyed in crashes - due to the ejection seats 60% of the pilots, 161 men, survived these crashes.

The aircraft was originally planned without ejection seats. ZELL required them since the operational concept for the system was effectively performing one-way missions after airfields had been destroyed. Think WW2 Ba349 Natter, just instead of firing a non-reloadable 30-round rocket salvo at a bomber the mission here was to drop a single nuke. Since there was no airfield to return to the pilot after dropping the nuke would simply eject. The concept was primarily abandoned due to NATO adopting Flexible Response, under which it was no longer assumed that all airfields would be nuked.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 08 August 2021, 15:35:43
Another legend of my youth gone! But thanks for the skinny, Kato!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 08 August 2021, 16:05:28
The VAK191B (german competitor to Harrier) died for the same reasons at the same time btw - the same change of strategy at NATO level, plus the same cost problem. In that case they kept financing its development for another five years though.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 August 2021, 16:40:27
Quote
The aircraft was originally planned without ejection seats. ZELL required them since the operational concept for the system was effectively performing one-way missions after airfields had been destroyed. Think WW2 Ba349 Natter, just instead of firing a non-reloadable 30-round rocket salvo at a bomber the mission here was to drop a single nuke. Since there was no airfield to return to the pilot after dropping the nuke would simply eject. The concept was primarily abandoned due to NATO adopting Flexible Response, under which it was no longer assumed that all airfields would be nuked.
correction, the F-104 was designed from the start to use an ejection seat. it just fired *downwards* because the aircraft was never envisioned by lockheed to be used in low altitude at high speed. (when it was created there were no ejection seats that were rated for low altitude anyway, and the downward firing would make it safer since there would be no chance of being blown into the airplane's tail at high speed) some USAF starfighters would get refits to newer upward firing seats in later production (lockheed developed an in house seat just for it) but those were still only rated for high altitude use.
the switch to the Martin-Baker Mk. Q7(A) 'zero-zero' seat, which could be fired upward safely at all speeds and altitudes was just a major improvement overall.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 08 August 2021, 16:50:53
and the downward firing would make it safer since there would be no chance of being blown into the airplane's tail at high speed)

Except for all the times the engine flamed out shortly after takeoff, or on approach to land; the pilot was then expected to roll the aircraft upside down before ejecting.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 08 August 2021, 17:48:29
correction, the F-104 was designed from the start to use an ejection seat. it just fired *downwards* because the aircraft was never envisioned by lockheed to be used in low altitude at high speed.
The German F-104G initially all had the C-2 upward-firing ejection seat - instead of the downward-firing B/C/C-1 models of the F-104A/B/C/D (which themselves were replaced with the C-2 in US service starting in 1959, a year before Germany put their F-104G in service). It is regularly misstated in German literature too btw.

ZELL required zero-zero ejection, i.e. from the ground. Hence why the Martin-Baker GQ-7(A) was bought. DB127, the aircraft in the photo, was the first one equipped from the factory with it. The C-2 was technically rated for zero-altitude ejection at a minimum velocity of 120 knots, and thus sufficient for low altitude; for ejecting if the ZELL rocket booster failed in some way they were not sufficient.

The Martin-Baker seats were then applied fleet-wide since Germany by then used the F-104G as a multi-role aircraft; the increased wing load resulted in rapid descent during engine failure, a situation in which the C-2 performed rather badly (or, the polite version: "it was unreliable", less polite version "may as well not have had any") but the GQ-7(A) was far better for. Italy installed the GQ-7(A) in their F-104S for the same reason.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 08 August 2021, 20:19:39
Its weird that they tried that with a F104, that plane wasnt the best for low speed anything.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 August 2021, 21:30:33
Its weird that they tried that with a F104, that plane wasnt the best for low speed anything.
lockheed did get in trouble for bribery after those sales, if that helps explain anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
they also bribed people in japan and the netherlands as well in the course of those countries adopting the F-104. spending about 22 million total in bribes (about 111.1 million in modern dollars)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 08 August 2021, 22:25:37
Hi Top, is that something new or something they've always done?

Only reason I ask is that the RAF has recently announced they are going to start doing that again having stopped it at the end of the cold war.
new to operations in the US, but yeah a # of places are starting to do cold war fighting drills again
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 08 August 2021, 22:28:09
lockheed did get in trouble for bribery after those sales, if that helps explain anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
they also bribed people in japan and the netherlands as well in the course of those countries adopting the F-104. spending about 22 million total in bribes (about 111.1 million in modern dollars)

Well, in business, sometimes you have to spend a little to make a little.

new to operations in the US, but yeah a # of places are starting to do cold war fighting drills again

What's old is the new new.

Though American aircraft having to do it in America is rather sobering if you take a few moments to do the math.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 09 August 2021, 13:38:36
What kind of G's are we talking about for the early F-104 downward ejection seats? That sounds like an incredibly uncomfortable negative-G way to leave an aircraft with even more things that could break or go wrong than in regular ejection.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 09 August 2021, 15:16:16
That sounds like an incredibly uncomfortable negative-G way to leave an aircraft with even more things that could break or go wrong than in regular ejection.
Everything after pulling the lever would have been automatic, nothing where g-forces (or manual intervention) could really interfere - on the C version the seat would pull your legs into the right position, then the hatch under you opened and the seat lifted slightly forward while the cabin depressurized; once the hatch was pulled away by windstream the catapult would fire and dump the seat downwards. Two seconds after ejection the seat would automatically separate from the pilot, and with different weights sorting out separation both pilot and seat would have their parachutes automatically launched based on altitude.

Manual intervention was only necessary if the automatic system failed, basically the pilot would pull a lever by his feet to open the hatch and have it ripped off, then twist a lever by his head to unlock the seat on the catapult and have it free-fall out of the aircraft.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 August 2021, 22:18:40
Two units have joined Carrier Air Wing 2 aboard the USS Carl Vinson as the carrier departed San Diego on August 2nd. VFA 147 "Argonauts" flying the F-35C and VMR-30 "Titans" flying the CMV-22B carrier-onboard-delivery aircraft.This marks the first operational deployment of both types.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/6698994.jpg)

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/7474399_0.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 16 August 2021, 17:47:14
(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/233834087_1989942021143655_142526346101414435_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_GpSN3hKLYYAX9_9cz8&tn=W0dytVqzcJ_SJOXD&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=6c480f465dd66e39cd829c332faf5e84&oe=613EA8EF)

Everyone is talking about the engine on fire as it comes in for a landing . . . am I the only one concerned it only has the nose gear deployed?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 16 August 2021, 18:10:53
I would be more concerned if the right gear was deployed and the left wasn't...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 16 August 2021, 18:27:30
the covers are partially open so i'd guess that the pic was just taken as the aft gear started deploying.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 16 August 2021, 20:17:41
Two units have joined Carrier Air Wing 2 aboard the USS Carl Vinson as the carrier departed San Diego on August 2nd. VFA 147 "Argonauts" flying the F-35C and VMR-30 "Titans" flying the CMV-22B carrier-onboard-delivery aircraft.This marks the first operational deployment of both types.

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/6698994.jpg)

(https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/inline-images/7474399_0.jpg)

The V22 in the Navy light grey colors just looks weird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 16 August 2021, 22:00:41
Didn't realize they're using the V-22 platform for COD.  Probably a good choice, don't need a catapult to get it back in the air and easier landings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 16 August 2021, 22:29:33
Didn't realize they're using the V-22 platform for COD.  Probably a good choice, don't need a catapult to get it back in the air and easier landings.
its actually too small for some of the more major cargo trips (it cannot for example carry a replacement Jet engine, like the C-2 could) but for most of the common duties it ought to suffice.

at a guess the VTOL ability is what won it the spot. it was up against an updated C-2 (made using some of the same changes made to the E-2 Hawkeye to make the E-2D.. new avionics, structural upgrades, and new more fuel efficient engines. claimed to be cheaper than the V-22B to obtain and operate, and shared most of its parts with the E-2D)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Sharpnel on 17 August 2021, 00:47:59
Didn't realize they're using the V-22 platform for COD.  Probably a good choice, don't need a catapult to get it back in the air and easier landings.
But what about cargo/passengers and flight range?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 17 August 2021, 04:24:11
Didn't realize they're using the V-22 platform for COD.  Probably a good choice, don't need a catapult to get it back in the air and easier landings.
Easier landings for the aircraft at any rate.  Those engines will do a number on the flight deck.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 17 August 2021, 04:59:17
Easier landings for the aircraft at any rate.  Those engines will do a number on the flight deck.
That's not a bug, it's a feature. It self-deploys to the hangar below  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 17 August 2021, 12:33:46
But what about cargo/passengers and flight range?
Going by the publically available specs: the V-22 can carry twice the mass in cargo over the existing C-2A's, and similar # of passengers. Not sure what the proposed C-2 upgrade could do (the new engines would have increased the cargo mass) the C-2 has the physically larger cargo area however.

As far as range.. the V-22 has a range of 1,012 mi/1,628 km. While the existing C-2A's can do 1,500 mi/2,400 km, while the upgrade would likely have extended it to similar to the E-2D's 1,682 mi/2,708 km.

So basically the V-22 can carry more tonnage of cargo but with less volume, but the existing C-2A's have superior range.
Like I said, I suspect the V-22B being VTOL was the deciding factor.. it basically allows the cargo delivery to occur in the area set aside for helicopters, and no longer requires the use of the catapults and arresting wires for launching and recovering.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 17 August 2021, 13:50:31
The V-22 can also be refueled by aircraft on the carrier, so it's true max range is rather longer.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 17 August 2021, 16:39:27
actually the C-2 upgrade was going to gain that feature as well (using the same equipment as the E-2D)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 17 August 2021, 16:47:41
Once aerial refueling is on the table "max range" is a bit less important, so I can see the vertical landing aspect tipping the scales.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 17 August 2021, 18:43:18
Once aerial refueling is on the table "max range" is a bit less important, so I can see the vertical landing aspect tipping the scales.
that's what i thought. and the smaller cargo area is offset buy the fact that a V-22 can sling a cargo crate or pallet externally if it isn't having to fly for an extended time. which in theory makes it more versatile.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 17 August 2021, 21:17:17
Once aerial refueling is on the table "max range" is a bit less important, so I can see the vertical landing aspect tipping the scales.

I wonder if they generally only tank with the KC-130s. The V-22 has a max cruise speed of 266 kts and the cargo area isn't pressurized, so they're likely flying a bit slower and almost definitely a lot lower than a Super Hornet working as a buddy tanker normally would.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 17 August 2021, 22:11:47
The current Carrier Air Wing structure is smaller and contains fewer aircraft types than its earlier incarnations, parts are more reliable and aircraft better designed for maintainability.

All this should lead to a much lower incidence of engines needing airlift.

And not to forget, procurement desicions are rarely based completely on military capabilities, technology or monetary factors.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 17 August 2021, 23:51:34
On their website : https://www.boeing.com/defense/v-22-osprey/ (https://www.boeing.com/defense/v-22-osprey/)

V-22 Osprey Quick Facts
Meets U.S. Navy requirements for combat search and rescue, fleet logistics support, and special warfare support
Matches the U.S. Special Operations Command’s requirement for a high-speed, long-range, vertical lift aircraft
Can be stored aboard an aircraft carrier or assault ship because the rotors can fold and the wings rotate
Has air-to-air refueling capability, the cornerstone of the ability to self-deploy
Watch the Smithsonian Channel’s piece on the V-22, ‘Air warriors: An extremely risky mission in enemy territory' (https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/video/series/air-warriors/33395)
Watch the Smithsonian Channel’s piece, ‘Air warriors: Ospreys quickly take down a Taliban warlord’ (https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/video/series/air-warriors/33380)

So, yeah I can see them refueling from each other if they made a tanker version of themselves, slinging cargo equipment, having a V-22 Gunship, maybe an AWACS version?

Who knows what the future may have in store...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 August 2021, 05:55:02
Neat how the V-22 had such a horrible start to the program and is now a front line aircraft that can do a lot more than what it was built for.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 August 2021, 06:14:44
Horrible start?  Are you familiar with how the F-14 program started?  ???

The first minute or so of this video is a humorous refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCmEFrWDAUY
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 18 August 2021, 07:27:33
Horrible start?  Are you familiar with how the F-14 program started?  ???

The first minute of so of this video a humorous refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCmEFrWDAUY

If you really look into it, many military programs have a rough start.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 18 August 2021, 14:09:43
The Abrams once had to have a bulldozer follow it around to give it a push when it would get stuck, and right before the first Gulf War congress was actually going to cancel the Apache.

The way more countries keep jumping on the F-35 bandwagon there's confidence it will eventually get past it's growing pains as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 18 August 2021, 18:39:33
So, yeah I can see them refueling from each other if they made a tanker version of themselves, slinging cargo equipment, having a V-22 Gunship, maybe an AWACS version?

Who knows what the future may have in store...

TT
I know that they are/were currently working an refueling pod that fit in the cargo bay.
Royal Navy looked at the AWACS mod EV-22

and there was an idea to turn it into a gunship with a nosemounted .50 minigun, but was never moved forward link (https://web.archive.org/web/20071025181048/http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002gun/depasqual.pdf)
But endup instead used a remote weapon turret with 7.62mm gun
and they played with a # of standoff weapons as well

modified to clean up my horrible spelling and english skills  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 August 2021, 18:47:11
Hmmm.... the "suppress 10 troops" requirement certainly didn't require a .50 cal, as much as I like the GAU-19 in general.  I suspect the light brass of a 7.62 minigun was the initial FOD concern, but once they decided to retain the brass of the .50 cal, I'm not sure why that didn't cause them to reconsider it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 19 August 2021, 19:01:11
Shoot, make a standard .50 cal minigun on all models. That way it has the capacity to defend itself somewhat...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 August 2021, 19:34:01
You can carry a lot more 7.62 ammo than 0.50 cal.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Van Gogh on 20 August 2021, 08:00:21
A few samples taken this week at the French air&space museum, near Paris. It has been refurbished a few years ago and does a good job enlighting its unique collection.
Here, the end of the World War 1 hall: group shoot of a Fokker DVII, a Junker J7, a Breguet XIV and the fuselage of a Voisin X -A10's great-grand father with a front-mounted 37mm gun; the same found in FT17's.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Van Gogh on 20 August 2021, 08:04:59
Post WW2: noses from a Sabre Dog and a Hun; two Mystere IV in the background.
From the Hall of Prototypes: Leducs experimental ramjets.

For those interested, I'll try to share a link to the pictures I took.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 20 August 2021, 08:19:56
Thanks for sharing!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 21 August 2021, 07:50:14
A few samples taken this week at the French air&space museum, near Paris. It has been refurbished a few years ago and does a good job enlighting its unique collection.

Those are great!

I spent yesterday at IWM Duxford, and have several hundred photos to sort through once I'm properly back home. They'd got a pair of Spitfires, a pair of Tigermoths, a Dragon Rapide, and a pair of Harvards flying most of the day, and also a Cataline & Hurricane both took a short flight.
The RAF Battle of Britain Flight Lancaster was there, and was meant to be flying back to Conningsby, but they had some issues signing off some maintenace. and ran out time to complete the flight in daylight, so it got cancelled.

If there's anyone near Duxford, the pilot said they were hoping to fly on Sunday instead.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 21 August 2021, 12:03:59
It took me a minute to realize you weren't talking about Iron Wind Metals.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Charlie 6 on 21 August 2021, 13:34:02
It took me a minute to realize you weren't talking about Iron Wind Metals.
Same...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 21 August 2021, 14:21:08
It took me a minute to realize you weren't talking about Iron Wind Metals.

Even worse, it took me a minute to work out why you thought I might be talking about Iron Wind Metals. I associate BT minis with Ral Partha Europe!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Van Gogh on 21 August 2021, 14:57:05
Those are great!

I spent yesterday at IWM Duxford, and have several hundred photos to sort through once I'm properly back home. They'd got a pair of Spitfires, a pair of Tigermoths, a Dragon Rapide, and a pair of Harvards flying most of the day, and also a Cataline & Hurricane both took a short flight.
The RAF Battle of Britain Flight Lancaster was there, and was meant to be flying back to Conningsby, but they had some issues signing off some maintenace. and ran out time to complete the flight in daylight, so it got cancelled.

If there's anyone near Duxford, the pilot said they were hoping to fly on Sunday instead.
Thanks, I envy you being able to see and hear those birds up. One of my cherised memory is being surprised by the flyby of four Spitfires while walking in a park in England; I did not know there was flights scheduled... But then, this sound, those engines <3


EDIT:
Sharing is caring, so a few (large) pictures available by fellowing this link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rk0Yc68wamVu72mDaGqCWX0My4kzB_pi?usp=sharing).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 August 2021, 10:46:32
(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/240657666_2201316850010677_9007790269506937242_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=4IA4tc0AQlEAX-zRaqF&_nc_oc=AQl2Uebt69hAqYtjoTPqnqx8NNnQj2INZ0boU4TJyXM41WEmvzGsRDddMYvWvVaEGDI&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=77c9409710f50f0f4d9fa0c4122d41f2&oe=612F8A2B)
Fuel tanks explode after anti-aircraft fire hit 'Little Warrior', a B-24H Liberator of the US 861st Bomb Squadron over #Fallersleben, Germany, on June 29, 1944.

Hotel Sierra . . .
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 28 August 2021, 16:58:49
That is 3000 gallons of a Bad Day. Thoughts for the crew, the poor devils.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 August 2021, 17:02:00
Yeah, because it looks like the flames are down in the bomb bay too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 28 August 2021, 18:19:17
And that's about the last place you want a fire on one of those.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 August 2021, 19:44:34
I can say from experience, the last place you want a fire is [censored] anywhere!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 28 August 2021, 19:49:21
Yeah, but a confined space filled with aviation fuel, air tanks, and high explosives is a worse anywhere than most.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 August 2021, 21:59:11
[beavis]but...heheheheheheheh...Fire's KEWL!!![/beavis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHG_0VZZisA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHG_0VZZisA)  the Germans thought so, anyway...until they tried it.

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 August 2021, 23:49:56
To be honest, with how close it seems the photographer was when that was taken I am wondering what shape THEIR Liberator was in afterwards.  I mean the photo appears to have been taken what would be right before the plane blew apart.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 August 2021, 23:55:37
To be honest, with how close it seems the photographer was when that was taken I am wondering what shape THEIR Liberator was in afterwards.  I mean the photo appears to have been taken what would be right before the plane blew apart.
Intact enough to make it back and have the film developed?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 August 2021, 23:59:51
Or to ditch somewhere survivable.  I just think of the pictures where half the bird's wing is missing, or the tail . . . that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 29 August 2021, 02:17:42
Yeah, because it looks like the flames are down in the bomb bay too.
Judging by the size of the blaze, everybody would be killed by fire or managed to bail out, before the bombs cooked off.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 29 August 2021, 09:44:32
Bad day to be the rear or side gunner in any case.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 August 2021, 10:25:22
Did a bit further research . . .

 . . . the picture is actually decieving b/c the Air Force cropped it to make it look level.  The pilot was actually executing a bank away from the rest of the formation at the time the picture was taken.  I imagine for the reason we discussed, to avoid damaging other planes and their comrades flying the mission although they were hit just after the bombs were released which is why the bay looks open.  None of the crew survived their plane being hit.

Here is a picture of the crew-
(http://thepastpresented.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Hansen-John-H.-2-Lt.-493rd-BG-862nd-BS-06-29-44-Levy-Jerome-2-Lt.-DS-600-22.jpg)

And their names-
Rear, L-R:

2 Lt. Jerome Levy, 0-703639, Navigator, Camden, N.J.
2 Lt. Sidney A. Benson, 0-818558, Co-Pilot, Marblehead, Ma.
2 Lt. John W. Hansen, 0-693976, Pilot, New York, N.Y.
2 Lt. Malcolm M. Stich, 0-697746, Bombardier, Brooklyn, N.Y.
T/Sgt. Vernon J. Polzin, 38367667, Flight Engineer, Taylor, Tx.

Front, L-R:

S/Sgt. Cyrus R. Aidala, 32707915, Ball Turret Gunner, Brooklyn, N.Y.
“Sandy Saunders, Top Turret Gunner”
(Same as S/Sgt. John E. Sanders?, 18191467, “Flexible Gunner”, Goose Creek, Tx.?)
S/Sgt. Walter A. Boykowski, 13171280, Tail Gunner, Pittock, Pa.
“Sgt. Ramos, Radio Operator” (not in crew during mission of June 29)
S/Sgt. Sylvanus G. Haksell, 39297646, Nose Gunner, El Centro, Ca.
Not in photograph:
S/Sgt. Billy B. Gomillion, 38424702, Radio Operator, Wichita Falls, Tx.

Apparently the only one to bail out was Lt Benson though he did not survive that first night on the ground.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 August 2021, 11:35:02
Bad day to be the rear or side gunner in any case.

Wasn't the tail gunner position the most dangerous one on those big bombers?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 August 2021, 12:25:08
Wasn't the tail gunner position the most dangerous one on those big bombers?

It's up there, but KIA/WIA varies a bit. For example if the ball gunner was hit, he was more likely to be killed - I assume because of how difficult it would be to provide medical attention to them vs. crew in the main compartment.

USAAF casualty analysis
https://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter9.htm (https://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter9.htm)

Didn't see a similar analysis of Bomber Command crew casualties, but the number of losses are generally staggering:
https://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/bomber-command/bomber-commands-losses/ (https://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/bomber-command/bomber-commands-losses/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 August 2021, 13:57:44
Or the simple fact the ball/belly gunner was so scrunched up that taking any sort of damage through the plexiglass- not to mention pretty much resting/stretching against it which could frag- meant the round or shrapnel likely traveled through much of the body.  Unlike the side gunners who were standing up, they could theoretically have something pass through their leg or arm and leave the torso intact.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 August 2021, 14:23:30
Or the simple fact the ball/belly gunner was so scrunched up that taking any sort of damage through the plexiglass- not to mention pretty much resting/stretching against it which could frag- meant the round or shrapnel likely traveled through much of the body.  Unlike the side gunners who were standing up, they could theoretically have something pass through their leg or arm and leave the torso intact.

Stats on waist gunners are sketchy at best because they were a more optional position. Seems nose crew (bombardier, nose gunner, etc.) took very heavy losses from flak. I assume tail gunners took more losses from fighters. B-24s didn't have a ball turret, which probably skews the statistics a bit too.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 29 August 2021, 14:53:53
I thought the B24 did have the ball turret, but it had to be retractable for takeoff/landing.
Or was it only installed on the final models, like the chin turret on the B17G ?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 29 August 2021, 15:40:13
I thought the B24 did have the ball turret, but it had to be retractable for takeoff/landing.
Or was it only installed on the final models, like the chin turret on the B17G ?
As far as I know some B-24 originally had no belly turret, then got one, swapped it for a tunnel gun, got rid of it and then got a turret again later. At least the latter belly turret was retractable. Belly turrets also weren't great place to be in in case of belly landing, not that unexpected belly landing was particularly common occurrence at least in European theater.

---

Speaking of WW2 gun turrets, B-29 had insanely advanced fire control system for its turrets. Here's one of those nice USAAF training cartoons on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJExsIp4yO8

(https://airandspace.si.edu/sites/default/files/styles/body_large/public/media-assets/B29_IA_4503_armament_control_p026_W.png?itok=fLTTbblD)

Gun turrets themselves were unmanned and could be controlled by any gunner on board. Aiming was assisted by lead calculating targeting computer that turned the tricky aerial gunnery pretty much into point and shoot. Considering what the average defensive bomber weapons were like just couple years earlier or even at the time, that system feels like it's a decade or two ahead of its time. The system was apparently so effective that B-29 often didn't have escort fighters in the late war (and that was only partially due to the weakened state of Japanese air arm).

The GE fire control system provided valuable protection for the superbomber. With an effective range of 900 yards, it provided accuracy at 50 percent more range than non-computer sighted guns, and over twice the range of most enemy fighters’ guns. A post-war official report credited B-29s with 914 victories against 72 losses in over 31,000 sorties flown in the 13 months from August 1944 to August 1945.
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/defending-superbomber-b-29s-central-fire-control-system
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 August 2021, 16:06:53
Wow!  :o

I had no idea remote weapon stations were THAT old!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 29 August 2021, 17:30:57
I knew the B29 had remote turrets, but I didn't realise quite how advanced the systems were - that any gunner can control any turret is impressive.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 29 August 2021, 19:17:33
For contrast, here's a USAAF gunnery training cartoon from just a year earlier that basically explains all the targeting stuff that B-29 could do automatically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWYqu1Il9Ps

These USAAF videos are great training material. For playing various flight simulators I still find this one to be one of the most useful videos on the subject.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 02 September 2021, 17:26:56
When Air Force Supply runs out of smokeless powder...

Or the greenhorn grease monkey gets the instructions mixed up and lubes up the inside of the barrels...

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/iVOHv.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 02 September 2021, 18:04:46
Or the pilot is vaping in the cockpit.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 02 September 2021, 20:11:50
When Air Force Supply runs out of smokeless powder...

Or the greenhorn grease monkey gets the instructions mixed up and lubes up the inside of the barrels...

(https://i.stack.imgur.com/iVOHv.jpg)

'Smokeless' really isn't. It's a name not really a descriptor, though if the propellant being used here was as residue heavy as Black Powder, you wouldn't be able to SEE the airplane. lol.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 03 September 2021, 00:16:37
Yeah, smokeless powder is only smokeless when compared to black powder.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 03 September 2021, 01:04:07
It should really be called reduced-smoke powder.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 September 2021, 01:51:14
Well, spiritually, the A-10 lives on in Battletech as the Mechbuster
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 03 September 2021, 09:09:54
Ok, nice patch . . . too bad the old campaign ribbons went away somewhere.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: sadlerbw on 03 September 2021, 14:14:15
Yeah, smokeless powder is only smokeless when compared to black powder.

I would find it absolutely hilarious to see an A-10 rip off a burst of rounds loaded with BP! It will never happen, but it would make an awesome wall of smoke.

Its interesting to me how much work goes into powders these days to reduce smoke, flash, and copper fouling. The modern military doesn't just want a round that goes boom every time, they want one that minimizes maintenance and doesn't give away your position. The reduced signature is probably less of an issue for something like an A-10, but cutting down on maintenance to all those barrels is probably worth something. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that current rounds used in that cannon do actually produce less smoke than they used to, even if they still aren't truly 'smokeless'.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 September 2021, 14:29:08
I would find it absolutely hilarious to see an A-10 rip off a burst of rounds loaded with BP! It will never happen, but it would make an awesome wall of smoke.

Its interesting to me how much work goes into powders these days to reduce smoke, flash, and copper fouling. The modern military doesn't just want a round that goes boom every time, they want one that minimizes maintenance and doesn't give away your position. The reduced signature is probably less of an issue for something like an A-10, but cutting down on maintenance to all those barrels is probably worth something. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that current rounds used in that cannon do actually produce less smoke than they used to, even if they still aren't truly 'smokeless'.

I'd like to see that too. Along with gun pods on the wing stations. Might cause gas-ingestion issues for the engines though with their current placement...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 03 September 2021, 15:28:04
given modern smokeless powders generate about an order of magnitude greater energy than the best black powder, i'm not sure that you'd even get the 30mm rounds to leave the barrel if fired with BP propellant.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 September 2021, 15:36:53
given modern smokeless powders generate about an order of magnitude greater energy than the best black powder, i'm not sure that you'd even get the 30mm rounds to leave the barrel if fired with BP propellant.

I'd expect the initial rounds to make it out okay, but you might need to adjust the RoF to make sure the bolt stays closed long enough. I expect the bigger issue would be fouling everywhere gumming up the operating mechanism or outright obstructing the bore.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 September 2021, 16:58:11
I'd like to see that too. Along with gun pods on the wing stations. Might cause gas-ingestion issues for the engines though with their current placement...
Gas ingestion issues were absolutely a problem in the prototypes.  If I can find the video where that was explained, I'll post it here.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 September 2021, 17:12:05
Gas ingestion issues were absolutely a problem in the prototypes.  If I can find the video where that was explained, I'll post it here.

Yeah, as I recall, the A-10's engines have some kind of mechanical restart keyed to gun firing. Probably one reason why internal cannon mountings tend to be in wing roots (physically separated from the intakes by the leading edge extension) or belly packs (physically behind the intakes).

Well, that and moving a source of significant vibration and heat away from the radar (obviously not a concern with the A-10, and not a factor that dissuaded Northrop designers)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 September 2021, 17:16:07
The video talked about that too.  A scoop was installed to capture the exhaust gasses if I remember right.  Still looking for that video.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 03 September 2021, 17:35:59
Found it!  It's got a LOT of Rule 4 stuff after it talks about the exhaust gas issue around 9:15, but I think the whole video is worth watching despite that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk6Qr6OO5Xo
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 04 September 2021, 08:39:38
I remember reading that the early model Hawker Hunters had problems with the engine ingesting gun exhaust. IIRC the immediate solution was to not use the outer pair of cannon while they worked out the right position for a couple of vanes to direct the gasses away from the engine air intakes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Middcore on 04 September 2021, 10:31:04
The F-5 had little deflector doors that popped up behind its guns in the nose to try to prevent the air intakes from ingesting the gun exhaust, or at least some F-5E's did.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 04 September 2021, 12:14:37
While it's a BT related item, my concern is why haven't we seen any development of non-ferrous rounds as a more conservative ammo?

Not Aluminum but more heavier than steel? Sure in BT we have alternative metals. But Tungsten reinforced rounds could be the way of the future, or it's derivative.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 September 2021, 12:17:41
Tungsten rounds mushroom on impact, making them less ideal than depleted uranium.  Of course, DU rounds have other problems...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 04 September 2021, 12:37:59
Pure rounds yes, but I was going for reinforced versions. Maybe a little of both?  DU penetrator core sheaved in spun aluminum reinforced tungsten and steel jacketed rounds.

Maybe add a polymer coating, some heavier metalic ceramics... Factory diamonds atune to BT lore...

Who knows... Weapons cost money, development costs five or more times that, and then the prototypes are triple that!!

Speculations abound...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 04 September 2021, 12:39:41
While it's a BT related item, my concern is why haven't we seen any development of non-ferrous rounds as a more conservative ammo?
For aircraft-mounted guns, or in general?

If you look through the catalogues of major ammunition producers (e.g. Nammo) then for anything above .50cal you will be very hard-pressed to find ferrous penetrators at all nowadays. It's tungsten all the way everywhere. For aircraft guns the default is HE-FRAG anyway, and even there you'll see rounds that use e.g. prefragmented tungsten ball penetrators.

Even in .50cal itself as the lower edge for anything non-handheld the advertising spiel for steel penetrators is more like "oh, we sell that too, it conforms to standard XY... - btw, did you know that over 15 countries use our .50cal ammunition with this tungsten penetrator?".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 04 September 2021, 12:49:33
That's current tech...

I'm talking future tech where current tech is replaced with newer rounds. DU is kinda heavier than tungsten but is much more radioactive. If the can make sliver shavings small enough to negate the radioaction then yeah use that. But a harder metal needs to be found.

Factory diamond penetrators? Something like this might work?

After all making ammo casings is easy, it's the bullet that needs to penetrate.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 September 2021, 13:00:46
Diamond doesn't have the mass.  If you watch that A-10 video I linked, there's a short segment on why DU is better than tungsten starting at 10:15.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 04 September 2021, 13:27:22
Factory diamond penetrators? Something like this might work?
MIT was researching (https://news.mit.edu/2014/alloying-tougher-tungsten-zack-cordero-1202) tungsten-chromium alloy powders for sintering of ultra-hard metals our of compacted nanostructures a few years back, if that has enough "future buzzwords".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 04 September 2021, 13:34:12
The real benefit of DU rounds, aside from the self-sharpening aspect is that they're pyrophoric (ignites on impact), giving it better terminal results and making it API.

As far as I can tell, one of the big hazards of DU is general toxicity of heavy metals and its proclivity for burning leading to a lot of vapourized toxic heavy metals contaminating the vicinity.

At high enough speeds, projectiles stop behaving in intuitive Newtonian ways - see: EFPs and HEAT rounds.
The standard solution is probably going to be bigger rounds - there are physical and logistical limitations to how much pressure and how much muzzle velocity a gun can reasonably handle.

Diamond wouldn't have the required density either.

Physics comparison of steel, DU, and tungsten penetrators against a RHA target. (Does not include the pyrophoric self-sharpening properties)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVYKw6L8TMo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVYKw6L8TMo)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 September 2021, 13:38:09
Cool video, thanks!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 04 September 2021, 13:46:01
Many factions aren't exactly encouraged to produce DU, since it's primarily a by-product of enriched uranium.  Not going into details because of Rule 4.

Portions of the public are also nervous when they hear the word Uranium, linking it to nuclear weapons, radiation hazards etc. (Just ask Joe Average what a long half-life means!) Actually the bigger problem is toxiticy, as chanman mentioned.

The search for other metals reaches its limits when we run out of stable elements. The densest stable elements available in usefull quantities seem to be Osmium and Iridium both  at ~22.6g/cm3. Platinum, Rhenium, Plutonium, Gold come next, then we get Tungsten at ~19.3g/cm and Uranium at ~19.1g/cm are next.

So for density we have already arrived at ~90% of the possible maximum.

But we don't only need density but also hardness and tensile strength, which some of the listed materials simply don't provide, aside from price considerations.

So when we balance density, hardness,  tensile strength, behind-armor-effects, public opinion, political costs and price, we will probably choose between Tungsten and Uranium for some time to come.
/edited according to Daryk's post, below
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 September 2021, 13:58:50
Tungsten's symbol is actually "W" (from Wolfram).  Uranium is just "U".
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bren on 06 September 2021, 05:17:49
Gives new meaning to 'buzzin the tower' ...

(https://i.imgur.com/UAKjf8Y.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 06 September 2021, 19:11:24
Very interesting article: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/air-force-association/2021/09/06/four-questions-with-the-head-of-air-combat-command/ (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/air-force-association/2021/09/06/four-questions-with-the-head-of-air-combat-command/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 12 September 2021, 00:39:33
Well watching a rando youtube thing I do, say this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor)

Weird thing... is she still there?

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 12 September 2021, 12:32:34
Still where? they were retired in the early 90s. I'm sure some exist, somewhere, but not operationally. Or even flightworthy.

But they make a great stand-in for a BattleTech Torrent. Too bad I can't find a cheap enough one in 1/300 or even 1/600...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 12 September 2021, 12:59:57
I just use a die-cast B1. :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 12 September 2021, 15:38:38
Well watching a rando youtube thing I do, say this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor)

Weird thing... is she still there?

TT

4 survivors, all in museums in the UK. 2 are stationary, 2 can taxi, 0 flightworthy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 12 September 2021, 15:51:56
I just use a die-cast B1. :)

It's not the same, sigh. Both are sexy beasts, but different kinds of sexy.

Fun fact: I once got nuked at NTC by a BONE from my sister's squadron.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/eb/74/41eb744f0b1cc292a8b018acde2f5920.jpg)



*That's not the actual airframe, so far as I know...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 September 2021, 16:34:15
That's cool!  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 12 September 2021, 17:23:21
I just use a die-cast B1. :)

I thought the B-1 was a Rubvogel?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 12 September 2021, 17:25:33
Fun fact: I once got nuked at NTC by a BONE from my sister's squadron.
Isn't that rivalry among siblings taken too far? ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 September 2021, 17:48:10
It depends how old she was at the time... pretty much any age under 30, ANYTHING goes...  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 12 September 2021, 20:02:21
I thought the B-1 was a Rubvogel?

I use Vigilantes for those. Got a triple of them lined up for my Highlanders.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 12 September 2021, 22:57:11
Isn't that rivalry among siblings taken too far? ;D

Its what I've always thought.

It depends how old she was at the time... pretty much any age under 30, ANYTHING goes...  :D

Right?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 13 September 2021, 00:54:38
Just saw this today and, y'now, at the rate we're going...

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFOu0h.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 13 September 2021, 01:00:12
Just saw this today and, y'now, at the rate we're going...

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFOu0h.jpg)

Should be 8 TF33-sized warp nacelles :P
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 13 September 2021, 09:13:20
(http://www.starshipmodeler.com/events/ipms2k5/ss_imvc-895s.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 13 September 2021, 10:43:03
Next Gen B-52 upgrade
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 13 September 2021, 10:53:55
Which is funny, b/c at least the date on that is '08 . . . and it was probably earlier.  At least a 13 year old meme that is best answered with another meme-

(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.38f1d0586511865a0607bba2f4a38a79?rik=%2bezWjFkvstvRYQ&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 19 September 2021, 09:25:22
Bitchin' paint!

(https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2021/03/004-F-16-BLACK-DIAMONDS.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 September 2021, 10:18:12
Indeed!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 19 September 2021, 12:30:54
The Viper is a paint job diva.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 20 September 2021, 22:32:10
Air Force Special Operations Command and private sector counterparts are currently developing a Removable Amphibious Float Modification (RAFM) for the MC-130J, allowing aircraft to take off and land in bodies of water and conduct runway independent operations.

(https://www.defensenews.com/resizer/xQw6Z5hrxyZW2kHY7OFL_t7-6wA=/1024x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mco/PFFZFHXSMVBU7NA2AOMGHVF7LA.PNG)

The drag from that should kill your range/payload.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 20 September 2021, 22:45:47
Air Force Special Operations Command and private sector counterparts are currently developing a Removable Amphibious Float Modification (RAFM) for the MC-130J, allowing aircraft to take off and land in bodies of water and conduct runway independent operations.

(https://www.defensenews.com/resizer/xQw6Z5hrxyZW2kHY7OFL_t7-6wA=/1024x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mco/PFFZFHXSMVBU7NA2AOMGHVF7LA.PNG)

The drag from that should kill your range/payload.

Oh yeah.  It's also reinventing the wheel while forgetting why you stopped doing some things.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 20 September 2021, 22:46:34
Lol, just how bad does it kill the range with that drag?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 20 September 2021, 23:07:11
Lol, just how bad does it kill the range with that drag?

Probably about as badly as it kills its airspeed. Any draggier and helos might have a shot at chasing it down
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 21 September 2021, 03:31:54
(http://www.starshipmodeler.com/events/ipms2k5/ss_imvc-895s.jpg)

Next Gen B-52 upgrade

Well-played, sirs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 21 September 2021, 13:14:54
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d3/05/1f/d3051f6d5fa06c2be85de6e9e6b26e88.jpg)

The Mirage IV was one heckuva looker. Gives the B-58 a run for its money in my book
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Euphonium on 25 September 2021, 14:28:19
(http://www.starshipmodeler.com/events/ipms2k5/ss_imvc-895s.jpg)

Next Gen B-52 upgrade

Well-played, sirs.

I think those might be next+1-gen, unless Rolls-Royce has made some breakthroughs recently...

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 25 September 2021, 17:46:08
A reminder that half the time, CalFire feels like a branch of the state militia's air arm:

(https://i.redd.it/u1rb65l97mp71.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/df/39/0f/df390ffdaaa714ef5c2b64187016b4e2.jpg)
(https://media.nbclosangeles.com/2019/09/10-08-2014-CALFIRE-AH1-Firewatch-Cobra.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/dc/39/49dc39f6b0566075e4314f8c36f14243.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 25 September 2021, 18:00:49
Fire Cobras are a thing?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 September 2021, 18:30:24
What are they even used for?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 25 September 2021, 18:37:17
Fire Cobras are a thing?

Yes, they are.

What are they even used for?

Fire watch.

Quote from: Cal Fire Firefighting Aircraft Recognition Guide, 2019
The Vietnam-era army attack helicopters have been striped of their weapons and lasers. Cameras and infrared sensors have been added to convert them to Cobra Firewatch Helicopters.

In 1996, the U.S. Army retired 25 of its Cobra helicopters, which are able to reach speeds of 160 mph. The U.S. Forest Service eagerly accepted the hand-me-downs and refitted them with an arsenal of high-tech gadgets. The new Cobras don’t extinguish fires by themselves. Their main purpose is to relay information to ground crews about the direction and strength of a blaze and to help larger planes make more accurate water or fire-****** drops.

The Firewatch’s infrared thermal imager can detect the heat of a wildfire even through thick smoke. Its low-light and color cameras can pick up fine resolution images of the fire, and then its transmission equipment can send those images—in real time—to firefighting crews up to 30 miles away. Also, the Cobra can direct larger water haulers by providing precise GPS coordinates.

The censortron is going to censor a word used to describe a chemical used to fight fires by slowing down or stopping the spread of fires.  Just FYI.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 25 September 2021, 18:51:26
What are they even used for?

Forward air control and spotter, I believe. https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/4951/aviation-guide2019-print.pdf (https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/4951/aviation-guide2019-print.pdf)

Interesting - I hadn't realized P-2 Neptunes were still in use, especially with the funky piston/jet power packs.

I think it might be time for CalFire to purchase their own flight of SuperScoopers though. I think everyone's going to need more capacity soon in that regard.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 25 September 2021, 20:17:23
Thanks for the link chanman!  Fascinating reading!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 25 September 2021, 21:41:12
Forward air control and spotter, I believe. https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/4951/aviation-guide2019-print.pdf (https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/4951/aviation-guide2019-print.pdf)

Interesting - I hadn't realized P-2 Neptunes were still in use, especially with the funky piston/jet power packs.

I think it might be time for CalFire to purchase their own flight of SuperScoopers though. I think everyone's going to need more capacity soon in that regard.

I don't think it's a question of want or need.  I think it's a question of availability.  I suspect demand is outstripping Viking Aircraft's production rate, especially with Viking converting so many CL-415s to CL-415EAF config and leasing them out.  And Cal Fire is competing with everyone else looking to add to their water bomber fleet, too.

I suspect as CL-515 production spins up, Cal Fire will certainly look to purchase some.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 25 September 2021, 22:12:19
It looks like Cal Fire ranks pretty highly in size of air force globally...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 25 September 2021, 23:31:00
video on the Forest Service's Fire Watch Cobra
https://youtu.be/d_Y6XhQ0774

article on them:
https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/photos/CAPNF/2020-08-18-0011-North-Complex/related_files/pict20200825-133939-0.pdf

it's heavily modified to strip out all the military specific gear (including the armor), and it carries a bunch of sensors used to observe fires and help coordinate fire response. one of the reason they used an ex-military platform for this is because military aircraft were designed to be able to handle the sort smoke and particulate filled atmosphere that the aircraft might need to operate in.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 26 September 2021, 01:54:27
It looks like Cal Fire ranks pretty highly in size of air force globally...

A lot of those birds are ones we hire every year.  We do still have a sizeable fleet though (https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/4tjfovoj/aviation-program-3.pdf):

16 OV-10 Broncos
2 King Air A200s as trainers
23 Grumman S-2T Trackers
12 Bell UH-1H Super Hueys
9 Sikorsky S70i Fire Hawks (we just added them)

They're planning to acquire 3 more Fire Hawks next year, and retire the Super Hueys in 2022-2023.

By way of comparison, the Hueys only carry 360 gallons, but the Fire Hawks carry 1000 gallons, and are faster at 160 mph vs 126 mph.  Hell, the Fire Hawks carry nearly as much as the Trackers, which hold 1200 gallons.

Cal Fire is also adding a C-130H in 2022, and 6 more in 2023, which hold 4000 gallons.  No word yet on when they're planning on retiring the Trackers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 26 September 2021, 03:08:56
given how major their wildfires have gotten over the last couple decades, not surprised they invest heavily in firefighting aircraft. they need everything they can get
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 26 September 2021, 06:26:43
It looks like Cal Fire ranks pretty highly in size of air force globally...

Fitting, as CA alone is the fifth largest economy globally... :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 26 September 2021, 12:12:48
Curious...

No Osprey? I mean their new and all... But the ability to hover in place while they reload their tanks...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ghost0402 on 26 September 2021, 12:24:39
Curious...

No Osprey? I mean their new and all... But the ability to hover in place while they reload their tanks...

TT
Purchase price and cost to run probably.  Assuming the military is allowing civvie sales at this point.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 September 2021, 12:52:25
I expect Ospreys will be in Cal Fire's fleet eventually.  They didn't have Hueys in the sixties, after all...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 26 September 2021, 12:55:12
Purchase price and cost to run probably.  Assuming the military is allowing civvie sales at this point.

if the military weren't, the transition technology isn't that far off of something accessible to teh civilian market.  The central problem is operating costs and maintenance (Fuel and fixes).  With a tiltrotor (or tilt-wing, or any V/STOL aircraft) you have a maintenance budget that's the worst of both a Helicopter, and a fixed-wing plane, wrapped up in a single airframe that likely costs enough to get multiples of the other two.  The Military can afford this sort of capability (at least, the U.S. can) for the same reason they can afford $1000.00 toilet seats and $800.00 claw hammers, but a state-level agency without the power of Congress to tax the whole nation?

really can't. Not even one that claims 5th place in terms of world economies and theoretically should have the budget-throw of a middling European nation by itself.

It's bang-for-your-buck here that is the limiting factor-gettting the most firefighting out of the smallest financial outlay over time.  Uncle Sam can afford an osprey on every airstrip, but not California.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 September 2021, 13:19:37
Right, so when the military starts surplus sales of them, I'm sure California will pick them up.  I mean, they found a use for Cobras, after all...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 26 September 2021, 14:09:28
Right, so when the military starts surplus sales of them, I'm sure California will pick them up.  I mean, they found a use for Cobras, after all...

well, obviously-especially if the Military starts surplusing while still keeping production going. (Economies of Scale! :) ) and managing foreign sales would probably help with that too-the more you build, the lower the cost for all the maintenance bits, special tools, manuals and so on.  Cobras use a lot of common parts with the UH-1, which is one of the longest-running, most produced choppers of all time thanks in part to a really quite decent production run and the offshore sales of Huey variants.

without that...well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CL-84_Dynavert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CL-84_Dynavert)

it didn't find a market, but when you do a side-by-side with the Osprey, it's a pretty close relationship in terms of ideas, just a few decades short, and no customers (Unlike Osprey).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 September 2021, 14:28:09
Hmmm... tilting the whole wing would introduce massive drag... that might be why it didn't survive R&D...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 26 September 2021, 15:02:53
Hmmm... tilting the whole wing would introduce massive drag... that might be why it didn't survive R&D...

It'd only be transitioning to VTOL mode for takeoff/landing. I suspect it's the lack of digital fly-by-wire to keep the aircraft controllable. Even then, there are dangerous parts of the flight envelope where flight-control systems can conspire to kill you.

Shades of the 737 MAX accidents, except in a part of the flight regime where the pilots didn't have the time or space to even consider troubleshooting before going in.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-crash-report-greece-1.6082716 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-crash-report-greece-1.6082716)

Bell's been working on tilt-rotors for ages - see the XV-3 and and XV-15. As for civilian tilt-rotors, Augusta-Westland has the AW609.

I think tilt-rotors are going to end up in an edge-case territory like high-speed ships where only niche use cases can justify the additional ongoing expenses (including much more limited pilot and mechanic pool certified to fly and work on the aircraft) relative to more conventional alternatives.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 September 2021, 15:42:36
I agree on the mechanic pool, but all rotary wing pilots have to learn fixed wing flying first, so I don't think the pilot pool will be as limited.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 26 September 2021, 16:34:25
I agree on the mechanic pool, but all rotary wing pilots have to learn fixed wing flying first, so I don't think the pilot pool will be as limited.

Not true.  Or, at least, that’s not an FAA requirement.  It’s entirely possible to get your license to fly helicopters without ever flying fixed-wing, or even add fixed-wing later.  It’s just way more expensive, since helos cost $500-600/hour to rent, and you’re probably looking at 50 hours minimum, versus fixed-wing costs are 1/5 that, and a fixed-wing pilot can add a helo endorsement later with 30 hours of flight time.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 26 September 2021, 16:49:02
Well, that's how it works in the part of the military I'm familiar with.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 26 September 2021, 17:02:43
An image of the first tiltrotor craft to actually fly, the
Transcendental Model 1-G
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Trascendental_Model_1-G.jpg)


first tethered flight June 15, 1954
first untethered free flight on July 6, 1954
first in-flight partial rotor-tilting in December, 1954
April 1955,  flying with 35 degrees of forward tilt, having reached speeds of 100 kn
crashed July 20, 1955, after more than 100 flights and 23 flight hours
pilot escaped with minor injuries, aircraft was wrecked.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 26 September 2021, 17:36:41
Well, that's how it works in the part of the military I'm familiar with.

Overall, I think that's probably still a better way to do it, anyway, and for an Osprey, I'd say it's an absolute requirement in terms of sanity.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 26 September 2021, 18:11:34
I agree on the mechanic pool, but all rotary wing pilots have to learn fixed wing flying first, so I don't think the pilot pool will be as limited.

I imagine staying current on the type will itself be expensive unless the plan is to exclusively use reservists who fly V-22s as part of their day job. The physics of tilt-rotors make them pretty unique - for example, I don't think any fixed-wing aircraft has that kind of roll inertia with the engines out at the wing tips. Similarly, helos have conventional main rotor, co-axial rotor, and fore-aft tandem rotor (Chinook/Sea Knight), but side-by-side tandem rotors haven't been a thing since some of the WW2-era German experiments.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: sadlerbw on 27 September 2021, 14:10:19
I would think that, given a choice between retired V-22's and retired CH-53E's for firefighting, the latter would win. The extra carrying capacity is probably more valuable than the extra speed, although the theoretically longer endurance of the V-22 might even things up a bit. The Marines are supposed to be getting more and more of the 53k variants over the next several years, so there may even be e-models getting surplussed that still have life left in them for approved civilian uses. Of course, operating and maintenance costs are a huge part of the ownership expense, and I don't know if there is consensus on which would be cheaper to operate, or if either of them are even close to the realm that a non-military operator would want to deal with.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 27 September 2021, 17:22:18
With the length of California, I think there would be a role for V-22s, even if the majority of the fleet would be 53s...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 27 September 2021, 17:31:55
With the length of California, I think there would be a role for V-22s, even if the majority of the fleet would be 53s...

I suspect Chinooks are far more plausible. Aren't the big Sikorsky helos also infamously expensive to run? The list of operators really tells its own story on the matter.

Not that it hasn't been tried. Looks like Heavy Lift Helicopters did firefighting conversions on 6 surplus CH-53Ds back in 2007 and used them for a few years before they were grounded by logistics. https://www.airattackmag.com/the-saga-of-the-ch-53d-fire-stallions (https://www.airattackmag.com/the-saga-of-the-ch-53d-fire-stallions)

Firefighting Chinook:
https://billingsflyingservice.com/chinook-helicopter-fire-fighting/ (https://billingsflyingservice.com/chinook-helicopter-fire-fighting/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 27 September 2021, 20:13:35
The S-64 Skycrane is used for aerial firefighting by the Italian Corpo nazionale dei vigili del fuoco (National Firefighters Corps) and (South) Korean Forestry Service, and by Erickson Inc., who also purchased the type certification and manufacturing rights for the S-64 from Sikorsky in 1992.
Would make a good parallel contract for a VTOL merc unit during a garrison main contract.

Nice livery.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/S-64_Aircrane.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 September 2021, 20:46:42
We had one of those or something darned close at the regional airport this summer on fire duty.  July was pretty bad here.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 27 September 2021, 23:19:32
Know what the pisser is?  The CH-53, while it holds 300-500 gallons less, is 53 mph faster, and thanks to being more fuel efficient, can operate for 3.5 hours at at time instead of two.  When dropping with a bucket instead of an internal tank, that means more drops per hour.

Now, admittedly, both are probably a bit big to pull the trick I saw a UH-1 pull near my old condo, and that’s refilling their bucket from a nearby swimming pool, but that’s why you have multiple size birds, right?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 28 September 2021, 03:20:51
Given the current panoply of sizes, I think that's right.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 28 September 2021, 03:37:49
J-16D at the Zhuhai airshow. You don't get a sense of how big the Flanker is until you see it dwarfing people in the foreground

(https://i.imgur.com/mafteD1.jpg)

For those keeping track of which particular Flanker this is, the J-16D is an EW variant of the J-16, which is an indigenized take on the Su-30* - new avionics (obviously, as an EW bird), domestic engines, and supposedly much heavier use of composites in the airframe. Not a lot published information about it.

Interestingly, the J-16 looks like it was developed from the J-11B unlicensed single-seat Flankers that progressively introduced more indigenous equipment over the course of the production run instead of straight-up copying the Su-30 MKK/MK2s that the PLAAF and PLAN already operated.

Kind of like how the J-7E and the Mig-21bis have a common ancestor in the old Mig-21F-13 but evolved separately into noticeably different machines.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 28 September 2021, 12:15:16
Unliscensed?  Just state the truth- stolen design from buying a airframe for 'testing' purposes, then back engineering it.  Russians decided to not to sell something- forget which- to the ChiComs for carrier operations over the last few years because of this tendency.

Though I grant, Chinese birds are probably the best amalgamation of NATO & old Warsaw Pact tech with the thefts from both.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 28 September 2021, 12:29:40
Unliscensed?  Just state the truth- stolen design from buying a airframe for 'testing' purposes, then back engineering it.  Russians decided to not to sell something- forget which- to the ChiComs for carrier operations over the last few years because of this tendency.

Though I grant, Chinese birds are probably the best amalgamation of NATO & old Warsaw Pact tech with the thefts from both.

Well, they did have a manufacturing license for the original Su-27, so the Russians helped set that line up for them. Shenyang just steadily ship-of-Theseused all the components in violation of the license to manufacture the airframes only to original spec, complete with equipment purchases from Russian suppliers. Hasn't stopped the Russians from selling progressively newer airframes to them.

The J-15 is straight-up reverse-engineered from Su-33s purchased from the Ukrainians.

As for the J-16s, who knows what percentage is independently developed from the J-11B and what is copied from the purchased Su-30MKK/MK2s. I'm not sure there'd actually be a way to tell.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 September 2021, 14:46:32
China has a loooooooong history of this. After Tiananmen Square we wouldn't sell them any more Black Hawks, so they just copied it resulting in the Harbin Z-20.

(https://lirp.cdn-website.com/b3a03882/dms3rep/multi/opt/z206-640w.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 October 2021, 04:04:00
Two interesting videos on the 787:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lapFQl6RezA (the plane)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6H8kSunRA (the engine)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 10 October 2021, 14:22:14
Apologies if someone got to this first, but I hadn't seen it until I ran across it on TMP:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32131240/french-dassault-fighter-jet-joyride/ (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32131240/french-dassault-fighter-jet-joyride/)

Its funny because no one died. Damn funny.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 10 October 2021, 15:57:19
The author did a great job maximizing the comedic effect.   ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 10 October 2021, 16:00:50
A good read with a satisfactory ending.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 10 October 2021, 16:08:51
The author did a great job maximizing the comedic effect.   ;D
Agreed!  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 10 October 2021, 16:24:59
Apologies if someone got to this first, but I hadn't seen it until I ran across it on TMP:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32131240/french-dassault-fighter-jet-joyride/ (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32131240/french-dassault-fighter-jet-joyride/)

Its funny because no one died. Damn funny.

It seems to be a thing that happens from time to time:
http://www.vfp62.com/F14_RIO.html (http://www.vfp62.com/F14_RIO.html)

This also definitively answers the question of how the F-14's ejection system works on a backseat ejection (which is... it depends on the settings  :D)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 10 October 2021, 20:25:50
J-16D at the Zhuhai airshow. You don't get a sense of how big the Flanker is until you see it dwarfing people in the foreground

(https://i.imgur.com/mafteD1.jpg)

For those keeping track of which particular Flanker this is, the J-16D is an EW variant of the J-16, which is an indigenized take on the Su-30* - new avionics (obviously, as an EW bird), domestic engines, and supposedly much heavier use of composites in the airframe. Not a lot published information about it.

Interestingly, the J-16 looks like it was developed from the J-11B unlicensed single-seat Flankers that progressively introduced more indigenous equipment over the course of the production run instead of straight-up copying the Su-30 MKK/MK2s that the PLAAF and PLAN already operated.

Kind of like how the J-7E and the Mig-21bis have a common ancestor in the old Mig-21F-13 but evolved separately into noticeably different machines.

Just also remember that its a carrier plane, so much larger than a Super Hornet or a Rafael Fighters.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 10 October 2021, 21:49:29
Just also remember that its a carrier plane, so much larger than a Super Hornet or a Rafael Fighters.

The J-15s/Su-33s are, but the rest (Su-27, 30, 34, 35, 37, J-11, J-16) aren't.

They're about the same weight as a Tomcat, but a fair bit longer (nearly 3 meters)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2021, 03:47:55
That'll make them a little harder to stuff into the hangar bay...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 October 2021, 11:45:21
Indian Su-30 MKIs next to their new Rafales:
(https://external-preview.redd.it/Wrj7_oDECanhgA7xQXdiMEmUh-4uN7FYUs61x4nTd5I.png?auto=webp&s=9d7c02d87df0e329dbad03e496ff09b030036865)

Indian Su-30 MKI in formation with a Typhoon and a Tornado:
(https://external-preview.redd.it/mntgNp8knj8dwE2BqNKWoS3OjhyP5Qlw-KPUcrN9rlM.jpg?auto=webp&s=2c23a1840605f008b2e0f5339fd9cb8ae3ebacf1)

Russian Flanker next to a Turkish F-16
(https://i.redd.it/600kjyrcgkn31.jpg)

Malaysian Su-30 in formation with an Eagle, a Raptor, a Hawk, a Hornet, and a Fulcrum
(https://external-preview.redd.it/e8-2WcNMJOWuygH17Iil2TwA_yLL-_1UQ36z_Abffmo.jpg?auto=webp&s=c0f88bf9cdb6e7d22adfe578520523a7d1fca81e)

Indian Su-30MKI in formation with Eagles and Mirage 2000s
(https://media.defense.gov/2004/Feb/25/2000594342/-1/-1/0/040225-F-0000S-003.JPG)

And of course, the F-15 isn't a small fighter either. Here is one stalking an Aggressor F-5E
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/F-5andF-15.JPEG/515px-F-5andF-15.JPEG)

Just as a point of reference, a Flanker's internalfuel load is between 9-11 tonnes (somewhere between a quarter and a third of the max takeoff weight - MTOW - depending on model/variant)
It's carrying almost a fully-loaded F-5's weight in fuel, and definitely as much as a fully-loaded F-CK-1 or FA-50's weight.

F-CK-1
(https://i2.wp.com/www.defenceaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/AIDC-F-CK-1-Ching-kuo.jpg?fit=1600%2C1067&ssl=1)

Mix of ROKAF aircraft: F-15, TA-50 Golden Eagles, F-16, F-4, and F-5E
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d9/96/6c/d9966c5561dceb61034252a873902d94.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 October 2021, 12:25:25
Surprisingly difficult to find pictures of the J-10 with Flankers considering... but these should give an idea. It's about the same length as a Typhoon (about 2.5 feet longer than a Rafale), and with about 4.5 ft less wing span

(https://www.aviatia.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Lchengdu-j10-vs-su-30.jpg)

(https://aerocorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Chengdu-J-10S-operated-by-the-Chinese-Air-Force-1090x500.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KY3cih6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rqaiUM6.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 11 October 2021, 12:37:17
Holy crap that's a big plane.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 October 2021, 12:50:43
It's more the other was never that big, really...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 October 2021, 12:54:02
It's more the other was never that big, really...  ^-^

To be fair, the Flanker family seems to be the rare fighter designed with sufficient internal fuel capacity right from the get-go. Many other tactical aircraft are seen with external tank(s) more often than without. One of the big outliers being the Mig-29, but that might just be more because of the design specifics than lack of interest

(https://tu-95.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Active-Strategic-Service-Bombers-Size-Comparison.png)

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia-Air-Force/Myasishchev-VM-T-Atlant-3M-T/6551171/L (https://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia-Air-Force/Myasishchev-VM-T-Atlant-3M-T/6551171/L)
(https://i.imgur.com/mODr8zP.jpg)

And the most Art Deco-ist girl - the XB-38. An experimental B-17E equipped with the P-38's Allison engines
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/XB-38.jpg/1280px-XB-38.jpg)

I'm not sure they could have kept the streamlined cowlings in production though - the Lancaster's engine pods are nowhere near as sleek as those on the Mosquito or Spitfire - I imagine it might be a cooling-related issue, especially when flying at high altitudes where thinner air might reduce cooling capacity - a persistent problem for B-29s. As a matter of fact, the prototype XB-38 was lost to... an engine fire

Lanc
(https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/abpic-media-production/pictures/full_size_0401/1605347-large.jpg)

Mozzie:
(http://i.cbc.ca/1.1403597.1379015049!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_1180/hi-mosquito-bomber.jpg)

Spitfire Mk. VB:
(https://azure.wgp-cdn.co.uk/app-militaria-history/posts/STRIP-SpitfireVB.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 11 October 2021, 13:17:56
Soviet Union was a big country and Su-27 was supposed to cover a good chunk of it on internal fuel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 October 2021, 13:41:56
Soviet Union was a big country and Su-27 was supposed to cover a good chunk of it on internal fuel.
Yep.
Which was also why they used it to make the carrier plane, even though the smaller MiG-29K would have been easier to operate from a skijump flattop. With little in-flight refueling projection ability to speak of, they wanted a fighter that had good range while still carrying a decent warload to maximize their options.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 October 2021, 13:48:25
Yep.
Which was also why they used it to make the carrier plane, even though the smaller MiG-29K would have been easier to operate from a skijump flattop. With little in-flight refueling projection ability to speak of, they wanted a fighter that had good range while still carrying a decent warload to maximize their options.

I don't think the carrier Flankers have ever been able to take advantage of their fuel capacity because of the lack of a catapult. Being limited to using the ski jump means the aircraft can't actually take off if their thrust to weight ratio gets below what is needed to accelerate it up to take speed in the space available, so those Su-33s and J-15s are hauling around a lot of extra airframe.

The Indian carriers use/plan to use the Mig-29K and India already operates Mig-29s. For the PLAN, parts supply chain (the PLA doesn't operate the Fulcrum) likely beat out any other consideration.

As for the Admiral Kuznetsov, I assume it simply flies whatever the Russian Navy has available...

The 2-seat Mig-29Ks do have a very Tomcat-esque form to the canopy though (and a Mig-29UB for comparison)

(https://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2018/6/25/1078532.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/MiG-29UB_LipetskAviacenter64.jpg/800px-MiG-29UB_LipetskAviacenter64.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 11 October 2021, 14:17:05
Re Flanker size:

Actually the Su-27 was pretty much dwarved by the aircraft that it partially replaced, i.e. the Tu-128.

(https://abload.de/img/tu-1289iktw.jpg)

The Tu-128 had a length of 30.06m and wingspan of 17.53m with MTOW 45 tons, i.e. it was almost 40% bigger than the Su-27.

The closest US counterpart for the Tu-128 was probably the North-American XF-108, which would have been of similar size (at 27m length) - and have somwhat similar roles, although the principal weapon system for the Tu-128 was intended for relatively short-range interception instead of the long-range concept for the XF-108.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 11 October 2021, 14:42:25
 Yep. The Fiddler still holds the distinction of the largest fighter ever built.

(https://i.redd.it/psvoofln28t11.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 October 2021, 16:04:33
'Fighter' in the same way Ju88s used to intercept RAF bombers in World War II were fighters. They were based on an aborted bomber concept (Tu-98).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 11 October 2021, 16:58:35
Going by its mission (intercepting and destroying airborne objects) we could call the Boeing YAL-1 the largest fighter ever.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/YAL-1A_Airborne_Laser_unstowed_crop.jpg/450px-YAL-1A_Airborne_Laser_unstowed_crop.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 11 October 2021, 21:13:55
The B52 actually shot down some planes before, so there is least that in active Wartime.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 12 October 2021, 00:30:50
Most of WWII bombers could claim (and massively overclaim) shooting down some planes, so it's not a valid criteria for designation. Hell, even humble Po-2 got some air-to-air kills.

There were also anti-aircraft versions of B-17, though that idea did not work out so well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 12 October 2021, 11:41:30
I don't think the carrier Flankers have ever been able to take advantage of their fuel capacity because of the lack of a catapult. Being limited to using the ski jump means the aircraft can't actually take off if their thrust to weight ratio gets below what is needed to accelerate it up to take speed in the space available, so those Su-33s and J-15s are hauling around a lot of extra airframe.
you are certainly correct that they never get to use a full load due to skijump issues ( though as I understand it in theaters where refueling aircraft are in use they can do the "load ordnance and a minimum of fuel just to get to the tankers, where they top up" approach)
The Su-27 family though has extremely high thrust to weight ratios though, and enough range that even if running at only a fraction of internal fuel, they still can boast a useful range.

Also worth noting that the Russian Navy at the time had plans for a full sized carrier to compete with the Nimitz class, though they never came to fruition due to a mix of internal doctrinal infighting and the end of the cold war. The fact that the large sukhoi's would be able to operate off such a carrier more easily may well have played a factor in their being chosen, even if they were somewhat awkward to operate off the smaller kuznetov class.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 12 October 2021, 13:43:49
When Special K deployed to Syria most of the air wing wound up operating from a Syrian air base to gain useful range and payload. Operating from the carrier required very light fuel and weapon loads.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 12 October 2021, 19:58:47
There is always this video of a Su-33 Flanker missing landing on the carrier.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=su-27+miss+carrier+landing&&view=detail&mid=6FD4943F0D10406D39BD6FD4943F0D10406D39BD&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsu-27%2520miss%2520carrier%2520landing%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Dsu-27%2520miss%2520carrier%2520landing%26sc%3D0-26%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D025A2777AA2149A984412F58113D5A9B
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 12 October 2021, 20:02:34
I suppose that's ONE way to bolter...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 13 October 2021, 17:59:51
Also available without the Bing wrapper (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCNQ4Un8Joo).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: mvp7 on 13 October 2021, 19:59:52
It would have been pretty awkward if the hook had caught a wire after all, it comes really close.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 13 October 2021, 20:21:30
It would have been pretty awkward if the hook had caught a wire after all, it comes really close.

That's when you destructively test just how much of an engineering safety factor was designed into the nosegear...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 13 October 2021, 20:24:38
Probably not enough...  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 13 October 2021, 21:05:47
At that point, everyone in the vicinity executes Emergency Response Number Two.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 13 October 2021, 21:09:27
Almost looked like the pilot accidentally pulled a Cobra when trying to flare for landing
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 15 October 2021, 13:36:04
Sole description: The entire *airplane* is a high lift device.

(https://i.imgur.com/6H9ZBIgl.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 28 October 2021, 07:28:42
Something truly remarkable has happened. The deadline for lodging protests against the selection of Rolls-Royce North America to provide new engines for the Air Force’s fleet of B-52s has passed, and none have been lodged!   :o

It's common practice in this country for the losers of a defense contract to protest and file lawsuits, but this time it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 28 October 2021, 12:41:33
How is that even possible?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 October 2021, 14:46:19
How is that even possible?
read a list of their subcontractors and suppliers?  I mean, that's flippant and all, but if the other competitors have backorders and their suppliers are swamped, and Rolls has suppliers that aren't swamped, and maybe passed some work to one or the other major competitors who needed work?  there's not gonna be much bitching about losing the contract.

why? because money is money, and if you're going to spend what it takes to challenge on one of those, the amount better be worth the gamble, if it isn't, then a dollar in hand beats ten in speculation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 28 October 2021, 18:08:20
Remarkable indeed!  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 29 October 2021, 14:21:40
Big week for China’s stealth aircraft development as two-seat Chengdu J-20 and stealthy carrier-borne fighter based on the redesigned Shenyang FC-31 (J-31) definitively sighted.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FC3ppNBUcAEhb4Q?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FC3ppNAVEAEVN8B?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 18 December 2021, 20:16:38
In an entirely new experience from me, have some actual photos of aircraft. Last month we were in Hampshire and looking for a café that was open to have lunch in, and it turned out that the nearest one to where we were was at The Army Flying Museum, which has a pretty good collection of things crammed into their hangars, from an Artillery Observation Ladder through fixed-wing spotters and reconstructed WWII glider fuselages to assorted helos ... which seemed like a perfectly plausible excuse to me.

Once we'd had some lunch, I took a few snaps before we had to head off, although I only had a zoom compact with me, and they had an aviation model-makers market going on at the time, which made it hard to get all of the shots I'd have liked. There's also a ZSU 23-4 parked outside, which I did get a shot of.

Before spotter planes, there was ... this ... a man on a stick, hiding behind a tea-tray.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-L6XgkBs/0/a4beb8a2/XL/20211121-141829-PG9-0758_a-XL.jpg) (https://dancefloorlandmine.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-L6XgkBs)

A Hafner Rotachute. I'm sure this seemed like a good idea at the time, to someone. They've also got a reconstruction of the Rotabuggy, which was the same thing, but nailed to a Willys jeep.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-nm95tZL/0/01186b95/XL/20211121-140641-PG9-0753_a-XL.jpg) (https://dancefloorlandmine.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-nm95tZL)

And now some actual aircraft ...

DHC-2 Beaver and an Alouette II.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-8Z3bNBK/0/444afb33/XL/20211121-142817-PG9-0765_a-XL.jpg) (https://dancefloorlandmine.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-8Z3bNBK)

Auster AOP.9.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-qFK6dLP/0/2e8e1735/XL/20211121-143119-PG9-0770_a-XL.jpg) (https://dancefloorlandmine.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/i-qFK6dLP)


If anyone is interested, the full gallery is here. (https://dancefloorlandmine.smugmug.com/Places/2021-11-21-The-Army-Flying-Museum-Middle-Wallop/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 19 December 2021, 22:14:46
That observation ladder looks absolutley insane!  :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 19 December 2021, 22:36:07
That observation ladder looks absolutley insane!  :o

well, consider it DOES hail from an era when only mad dogs (that is, rabid animals) and englishmen went out into the midday sun, an example of England's maddest time of madness, late in their empire.

not exactly a poster for sanity the lot of that era.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 25 December 2021, 01:09:30
(https://images.outbrainimg.com/transform/v3/eyJpdSI6IjM1MTk1NjlhYTVkZWRlNTNmMzI0ZDhmZTU4YmM5OWZmNWI4OWRjMjI0MDdlOWQ3NGZkZTI4NTEzMTg3NzA3OTIiLCJ3Ijo5NTAsImgiOjU3MCwiZCI6MS41LCJjcyI6MCwiZiI6MH0.jpg)

Found this online....

Yikes!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 25 December 2021, 01:28:49
(https://images.outbrainimg.com/transform/v3/eyJpdSI6IjM1MTk1NjlhYTVkZWRlNTNmMzI0ZDhmZTU4YmM5OWZmNWI4OWRjMjI0MDdlOWQ3NGZkZTI4NTEzMTg3NzA3OTIiLCJ3Ijo5NTAsImgiOjU3MCwiZCI6MS41LCJjcyI6MCwiZiI6MH0.jpg)

Found this online....

Yikes!

TT

It's a Pelican, not a pelicant
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 25 December 2021, 20:23:52
FedRat, copy dat!

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 26 December 2021, 03:33:47
Some more oddball aircraft:

(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/de-havilland-dh93-don-1-jpg.498911/)
(https://www.baesystems.com/en-media/webImage/20210402094823/1434597935855.jpg)

The de Havilland Don, a multi-place trainer designed in the rearmament rush leading up to WW2. Not sure what the issue is, although it might have been underpowered. Something was obviously wrong though because the order only amounted to 30 aircraft and 20 airframes. The aircraft were only used for about a year as utility/liaison hacks before being retired.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 26 December 2021, 03:49:21
My totally non cognisant moresion is that it looks underarmed? And probably does not have much in the way of fighter mobility or size for a bomber carrying capacity.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 26 December 2021, 04:29:34
My totally non cognisant moresion is that it looks underarmed? And probably does not have much in the way of fighter mobility or size for a bomber carrying capacity.

It's a trainer for pilots, radio operators, and gunners, so not a consideration?

It's actually quite similar in many respects (top speed, etc.) to the Avro Anson trainer/utility craft and 11,000 of those were built, and another 8700+ of the Airspeed Oxford. The Anson even both predates the Don by a year.

On further investigation, my suspicion is that the main issue is probably the engine - the Don's engines aren't shared with any other numerous designs, while the Armstrong Siddeley Cheetah seems to have been fairly reliable (and used on both the Anson and the Oxford)


Avro Anson:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/CF15_Avro_Anson_ZK-RRA_040415_01.jpg/1024px-CF15_Avro_Anson_ZK-RRA_040415_01.jpg)

Airspeed Oxford:
(https://www.flying-tigers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/airspeed-oxford-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 26 December 2021, 07:06:51
The Anson allowed allmost twice the payload, with 8 seats total in the trainer versions compared to the 4 seats in the Don, making it a more efficient "flying classroom", and also having more weight reserve for modifications like an anti-ship radar and depth charges. In addition, the twin engine layout provided a much better margin of safety compared to the  single engine Don, especially as Coastal Command was a major user, employing the type for anti-submarine patrols over water.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 29 December 2021, 13:48:38
In order to zoom climb, you have to start off low:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blue-angels-fighter-jet-does-a-sneak-pass-over-boaters/vi-AASfk4X?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blue-angels-fighter-jet-does-a-sneak-pass-over-boaters/vi-AASfk4X?ocid=msedgntp)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 29 December 2021, 17:59:52
You have to be careful flying low, though.  Screw it up, and you'll get yourself and any passengers you have aboard killed, as well as the potential to kill people on the ground.

Monday night I was witness to an aircraft crash.  I'm not going to post any of the pictures of this here directly, but here's a link with pictures of the debris field and information on the crash itself, and discussion amongst some pilots (including local ones) about what probably happened:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/12/learjet-35a-n880z-fatal-accident.html

The included map from the OC Register isn't quite accurate, and was based on earlier reports.  I've included a more updated one a local station broadcast as an attachment, along with a Bing maps screenshot - the impact and debris was on Pepper Drive, mostly between Bevin Ln and Somerlane St.

For reference, when the crash occurred, I was in my car, about 200 meters east of the impact site (at the intersection of Pepper and N. 2nd St).  My mother-in-law lives within around 200 meters as well.  My house and my sister-in-law live within a kilometer of the site, as well.

Night time and weather conditions (rain, some fog) meant I never saw the aircraft itself.  I could hear it as it passed by under 500' AGL (the altitude markings on the map are in MSL - the power lines themselves on that street work out to be about 641' MSL, according to one of the posters on that link, which sounds about right for the area.  Second later, enginesound was gone, and there was a flash of lightning and a sound similar to a thunderclap - that was the impact and breaking a power line.  Next second there was a large fireball as the fuel went off, followed by a power transformer next to the intersection blowing and the lights in the area cutting off.

From what it looks like initially, the pilot decided not to try to land on the north-south runway (17) at the local airport (SEE), and cancelled IFR to transition so he could legally request the bigger runway 27R that runs from east to west.  He had to go past the airport to do this, then turn left to head east, left again to head north, and was at the spot where he had to turn left again to head west and line up with the runway, or risk hitting Rattlesnake Peak (the mountain in the upper left of the Bing map image).  The technical difficulty is that there was a cloud layer above him due to the rain, poor visibility conditions due to the fog, and it was night time.

While trying to get the aircraft around to land, it looks like the pilot got too low, let his airspeed drop too much and then, when banking left to avoid the mountain and line up with the runway, dropped below stall speed for a Learjet 35 with full flaps.  While in a bank, below recommended altitude for approach.  From there, as the Ring video shows in that link, the plane basically fell out of the air, during which you could hear the pilot's...interjections in the ATC conversation.

Side note: I don't think I'd recommend listening to the ATC audio.  I did, and I regret it.

Remarkably, unlike the October 2021 crash (https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/11/us/san-diego-area-plane-crash/index.html) in Santee, which is a few miles away and where the pilot was approaching the same airport, nobody on the ground was killed.  Unfortunately, the two-person flight crew and two nurses aboard this aircraft, a local air ambulance, were all killed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 29 December 2021, 18:30:45
Good god, Gio.  I grew up on Plumeria drive, I know that whole area intimately well.  That had to be right next door to a girl's family I had a crush on in high school...  At least you and yours are safe.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 29 December 2021, 18:53:43
Definitely a bad decision there...  Unfortunately, the pilot realized it too late.  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 29 December 2021, 20:26:49
You have to be careful flying low, though.  Screw it up, and you'll get yourself and any passengers you have aboard killed, as well as the potential to kill people on the ground.

Monday night I was witness to an aircraft crash.  I'm not going to post any of the pictures of this here directly, but here's a link with pictures of the debris field and information on the crash itself, and discussion amongst some pilots (including local ones) about what probably happened:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/12/learjet-35a-n880z-fatal-accident.html

You witnessed that crash?  I saw it on the news.  Looked real bad just from the pictures they showed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 29 December 2021, 20:57:53
You witnessed that crash?  I saw it on the news.  Looked real bad just from the pictures they showed.

I did, and it was.  I didn't see the aircraft itself, but I saw the impact effects.

What's weird is I would swear it flew directly overhead, and that there was the doppler shift from my right ear to my left ear as it did so, but at the very least the flight tracker the local news station showed (which I included a screencap of) shows it only to my left by a couple hundred yards as it flew north and then crashed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 29 December 2021, 21:38:19

Mini C-17 (https://taskandpurpose.com/mandatory-fun/mini-c-17-air-force-315th-wing/?fbclid=IwAR3mptXS0KaUI7Ae-Z12Ry_eEvjCn-Ai0V7eq3assLaDkYlj4lIwS7DsRyQ)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 29 December 2021, 22:05:08
Mini C-17 (https://taskandpurpose.com/mandatory-fun/mini-c-17-air-force-315th-wing/?fbclid=IwAR3mptXS0KaUI7Ae-Z12Ry_eEvjCn-Ai0V7eq3assLaDkYlj4lIwS7DsRyQ)

Adorable.  Reminds me of this:

https://aviationhumor.net/cessna-172-on-vw-beetle-chassis/

(https://aviationhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Craigslist-gold-1.jpg)

Which the only reason I don't presently own it is because I didn't have $25,000 free at the time.  That said, I've thought about building one myself.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 29 December 2021, 22:44:46
Ohmygosh it's the Dodo!

(https://www.thegtaplace.com/downloads/screens/gtavc/planes/5317_screen01.png)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2021, 22:49:22
"They made clipped-wing Spitfires, so why not my Cessna?" said someone at some point...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 29 December 2021, 22:52:35
"They made clipped-wing Spitfires, so why not my Cessna?" said someone at some point...

There's clipped-wing, and then there's clipped-wing:

(https://aviationhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Craigslist-gold-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 29 December 2021, 23:09:54
There's clipped-wing, and then there's clipped-wing:

(https://aviationhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Craigslist-gold-2.jpg)

I don't think that propeller is in compliance with modern pedestrian crash standards.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 29 December 2021, 23:10:11
This is basically begging for an entry in the Red Bull Flugtag.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/3493/3835127264_4ff3823731.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 30 December 2021, 09:12:46
I don't think that propeller is in compliance with modern pedestrian crash standards.

Roger. It needs a bumper. And probably a Mansfield bar on back just in case.

I did, and it was.  I didn't see the aircraft itself, but I saw the impact effects.

Glad to hear you and yours are okay. And it's very sad to hear about the fatalities, especially in a situation based likely solely on pilot error.

It never pleasant to hear a person's last words, doubly so when they realized they made a critical and ultimately unforgivable and uncorrectable error. I'd recommend you do not try to listen to the audio of Western Airlines 2605 crash in Mexico City...because what is once heard cannot be unheard. On the other hand, the audio of Alaska Airlines Flight 261 is sobering, but it fills you with awe of the composure of the flight crew and the attempts they made to save themselves and their passengers when placed up against a problem that was none of their doing, and from which there was no recovery.

When that time comes for me, I hope to do as well.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 30 December 2021, 09:57:52
This is basically begging for an entry in the Red Bull Flugtag.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/3493/3835127264_4ff3823731.jpg)

I missed Flugtag. Was going to go see it in Chicago...but it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 30 December 2021, 14:45:29
If you're down after listening to any of those last words, the "Miracle on the Hudson" audio is still on YouTube, last I checked.  That is moving in entirely the other way.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 31 December 2021, 01:08:44
Some experimental Swiss weirdness from the early jet age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFW_N-20 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFW_N-20)

The EFW N-20.02 Arbalète demonstrator was powered by FOUR very tiny jet engines (220 lbf of thrust per engine). This actually flew
(https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/6/32060_1500346712.jpg)\

The full-scale EFW N-20.10 Aiguillon - which never flew. Also intended to have four engines, although much less tiny ones
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/N-20.10_Aiguillon_frontal_view.jpg/1024px-N-20.10_Aiguillon_frontal_view.jpg)

Yes, they do look like BT ASFs, don't they?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 31 December 2021, 20:55:09
I don't know if it's just me, or the angle, but the wings on both of those look pretty thick?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 31 December 2021, 23:29:39
You have to put the gas for those engines somewhere!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 01 January 2022, 09:33:10
I bring you a scrapyard plane from a despicable power with very interesting gear. Q cessna combat aircraft. Yeah, a cessna, that thing that flies form.your local amateur airport.

Cessna 337 Lynx from the Rhodesian armed forces. It is obvious that Stingers and the like were not a thing in that conflict.
(https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/armed-lynx-on-display.jpg)

A lot of weapon options for such an originally hardy recon craft.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/81/e5/98/81e598a6b64ef972363f7d6b25db7c1c.jpg

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 01 January 2022, 09:47:45
In USAF service it was the O-2 Skymaster.

(https://heritageflight.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/HFM09CAL-002-wpcf_600x366.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 01 January 2022, 14:31:44
The Vickers Type 161 prototype from... 1931.

Armed with a single upward firing 37mm Coventry Ordnance Works gun for zero-deflection shooting, somewhat similar to the later  Schräge Musik concept (and done in WW1 with some pusher fighters with a separate gunner and fighters equipped with Foster mounted Lewis gun(s)).

(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/vickers-type-161-cow-gun-fighter-f29-27-vintage-1-jpg.589341/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/vickers-type-161-cow-gun-fighter-f29-27-vintage-4-jpg.589345/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 01 January 2022, 16:43:28
I wondered if there were ever a plane like that, with a midship engine and propeller smooth to the fuselage like that.  Seems like something Miyazaki would come up with.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 01 January 2022, 16:45:49
From memory, it was meant to be more maneuverable due to having the engine located near the centre of mass. In practice, it ran into the same problem pusher propellor craft experienced in WW1 - poor cooling. Plus the technology of the time wasn't ready for supporting the frame around a central engine.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 01 January 2022, 18:06:22
There's an awesome old (now inactive) thread on ww2aircraft.net (https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/fantasy-aircraft-full-series.23533/ (https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/fantasy-aircraft-full-series.23533/)) where an illustrator has been mixing and matching aircraft paint schemes on aircraft they were never used on.

Let's group this by theme:
1) American designs in Soviet colours

F-16 Viper in what looks like a Russian Mig-29 scheme
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f024_f16a_russia_1_dev-jpg.502552/)

F-104
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f835_starfighter_ussr-jpg.462707/)

A-10 in what I think is WW2 ground Soviet ground attack camo - it looks very Il-2 esque, and appropriate given how IL-2-like the A-10 is
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f511_a10a_ussr-jpg.441389/)

An F-86 in Korean War-era Mig-15 camo
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f361_f86f_ussr-jpg.426879/)

An F-4 in tactical camo
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f150_f4j_ussr-jpg.412309/)

An F-14 in Russian ground camo
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f144_f14a_russia-jpg.411973/)

An F-22 in a scheme that looks a bit like the Russians use on some of the Su-35s
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f198_f22a_ussr-jpg.413697/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 01 January 2022, 18:23:43
I don't think an F-4 could ever be mistaken for anything else regardless of paint scheme...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 01 January 2022, 20:48:56
That F-14 looks a lot like the Iranian ones

(https://www.defencetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/iran-F-14-IRIAF.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 01 January 2022, 22:35:52
I don't think an F-4 could ever be mistaken for anything else regardless of paint scheme...  ^-^

The smoke trail would give it a away
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 01 January 2022, 22:43:06
2) JASDF colours on non-JASDF designs

Su-27 Flanker (ironically) wearing the camo of JASDF strike fighters like the F-4 and F-1. Ironic because like the F-15, the Su-27 is an air-to-air only design. The multi-role capability doesn't get added until later and is still mostly seen on two-seaters.

(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f222_su27_japan-jpg.414113/)


F/A-18E Super Hornet wearing Mitsubishi F-2 colours. Also used by some RF-4s/F-4s. It's a really striking colour scheme, but it's unusually intense if meant to provide concealment (other blue 'camo' schemes are arguably more to look good than anything else)

(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f872_fa18e_japan-jpg.463459/)
(https://i2.wp.com/www.aeroresource.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/JASDF-McDonnell-Douglas-RF-4E-47-6905-and-57-6907.jpg)

Eurofighter Typhoon in the same scheme:
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f109_typhoon_japan-jpg.411485/)

Mig-29 - I don't recognize which JASDF aircraft uses this pattern
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f824_mig29a_japan-jpg.462696/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 03 January 2022, 13:55:03
3) Mirror Universe USAF planes

USAF and ANG Mig-29s
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f249_mig29a_ang-jpg.416509/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f014_mig29c_usaf_44fs-jpg.408714/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f007_mig29a_usaf_1-jpg.408707/)

USAF and ANG Typhoons
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f074_typhoon_usa_78fs-jpg.410646/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f310_typhoon_ang-jpg.418258/)

ANG Tornados
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f120_tornado_ang-jpg.411615/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f159_tornado_ang-jpg.412513/)

A Mig-17 painted up like an F-86
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f018_mig17_usaf_16fis-jpg.408718/)

US Navy Flankers
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f001_su27_usn_vf21-jpg.408701/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f005_su27_usn_vf124-jpg.408705/)
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f020_su27_usn_vf84-jpg.408720/)


That F-14 looks a lot like the Iranian ones

(https://www.defencetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/iran-F-14-IRIAF.jpg)

A hypothetical Iranian F-15
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/f286_f15c_iran-jpg.417086/)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 31 January 2022, 15:34:36
Saw a trio of AH-64s land at the local airport.  Makes we wonder where they're going to/from.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 01 February 2022, 01:15:41
Had a black Blackhawk circle our Monument downtown Indianapolis, IN today... heavy reverberations!

Don't know why...

Everyone complained, I was like cool... nice sounds deep in my chest feeling. I was inside my shop when I first heard it inbound.

WHOOMPA WHOOMPA WHOOMPA....

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 01 February 2022, 01:33:45
Saw a trio of AH-64s land at the local airport.  Makes we wonder where they're going to/from.

About an hour after I posted this, a pair of what I think were Chinooks flying north as well.  Definitely looks like there's significant movement along the I-5 corridor.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 01 February 2022, 11:35:01
It never pleasant to hear a person's last words, doubly so when they realized they made a critical and ultimately unforgivable and uncorrectable error. I'd recommend you do not try to listen to the audio of Western Airlines 2605 crash in Mexico City...because what is once heard cannot be unheard. On the other hand, the audio of Alaska Airlines Flight 261 is sobering, but it fills you with awe of the composure of the flight crew and the attempts they made to save themselves and their passengers when placed up against a problem that was none of their doing, and from which there was no recovery.

When that time comes for me, I hope to do as well.

From what my father told me, they had a recording of the Thresher as she went down.  Story is that someone stayed on the underwater telephone describing everything until hitting crush depth.  Supposedly you could hear crew freaking out in the background because those in the conn knew they were heading down.  Not that I could blame those freaking out, but the guy on the phone would have been one cool customer.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 01 February 2022, 11:59:36
From what my father told me, they had a recording of the Thresher as she went down.  Story is that someone stayed on the underwater telephone describing everything until hitting crush depth.  Supposedly you could hear crew freaking out in the background because those in the conn knew they were heading down.  Not that I could blame those freaking out, but the guy on the phone would have been one cool customer.

Nerves of steel.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 01 February 2022, 17:42:32
There's a retired submarine Captain leading a charge of Freedom of Information Act requests to get all of that stuff released.  He's had more success than I would have expected.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 02 February 2022, 14:19:59
I had to look up b/c I can never remember if it was the Thresher or Scorpion that had it happen . . . but got to reading, and apparently the pressures to avoid saying the Scorpion was lost to enemy action has decreased to the point they are no longer saying it could never have been a Soviet taking the boat down.  In fact, other FOIA like requests across NATO showed reports where Soviet subs had increasingly been aggressive maneuvering against NATO subs and even a few incidents where torps were put in the water.  Interesting part for one of those incidents is it was written off as the NATO sub was not known to be in the area- command decided they had stumbled on a Soviet live torpedo exercise in their waters.

But you can also note 4 subs were all lost that year ('68) all mysterious . . . 1 US, 1 Soviet, 1 French, and 1 Israeli.  Unlike some other sub losses, the location of where these subs were lost in some cases took decades (Minerva, 2019?) to find.  Took a bit to find the Scorpion, the Soviets despite a large effort after 2 months of silence was unable to find K-129 which had just undergone modernization (but the USN was able to find it by 5 months later . . . ?).  The Israeli sub was found in '99, cause of destruction claimed to be unknown.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 02 February 2022, 14:26:07
When did this become a Naval Ship thread?

Moar Planes...

https://youtu.be/5EzZfKe6YwA (https://youtu.be/5EzZfKe6YwA)

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ghost0402 on 02 February 2022, 15:30:02
I had to look up b/c I can never remember if it was the Thresher or Scorpion that had it happen . . . but got to reading, and apparently the pressures to avoid saying the Scorpion was lost to enemy action has decreased to the point they are no longer saying it could never have been a Soviet taking the boat down.  In fact, other FOIA like requests across NATO showed reports where Soviet subs had increasingly been aggressive maneuvering against NATO subs and even a few incidents where torps were put in the water.  Interesting part for one of those incidents is it was written off as the NATO sub was not known to be in the area- command decided they had stumbled on a Soviet live torpedo exercise in their waters.

But you can also note 4 subs were all lost that year ('68) all mysterious . . . 1 US, 1 Soviet, 1 French, and 1 Israeli.  Unlike some other sub losses, the location of where these subs were lost in some cases took decades (Minerva, 2019?) to find.  Took a bit to find the Scorpion, the Soviets despite a large effort after 2 months of silence was unable to find K-129 which had just undergone modernization (but the USN was able to find it by 5 months later . . . ?).  The Israeli sub was found in '99, cause of destruction claimed to be unknown.
Sosus allowed us to find K129.  A book, Project Azorian: The CIA and the Raising of the K-129, details the sinking with Sosus data.  Sosus data makes it seem like a failed missile test that lighted a missile off while the missile door was closed.

Obligatory plane pic to make up for the offtopic bit.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/5319/5891856024_aaaa6b472a_b.jpg)

Not quite as large as an Avenger but the Helldivers are LARGE planes for being a carrier based aircraft.  Saw one at the Mid Atlantic Air Museum WWII weekend a few years back.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 02 February 2022, 19:36:58
It's mostly the same people in both threads, so I think we can be forgiven for crossing the streams now and then...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 February 2022, 20:00:49
ATE Super Hind Mk. III

(https://external-preview.redd.it/E01XyQ2to3oMeL1JPQ6xp0bauBmKkVQgKgyZKK75wtc.jpg?auto=webp&s=d0a1c6a7c5a801cd6203d5137f65349bbf0b6e74)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 04 February 2022, 20:33:23
That's a...uh...thing?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 04 February 2022, 20:58:24
I'm just trying to figure out what's "super" about it...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 04 February 2022, 21:06:43
I'm just trying to figure out what's "super" about it...  ^-^

Guessing the new cannon mount & the sensor pod on the nose. Not sure what kind of ATGMs it has, or who makes this package...

Edit: looked it up. It's a South African project with western avionics & many other tweaks.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 February 2022, 23:25:46
Is that an actual aircraft or something from a video game?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 05 February 2022, 01:32:19
Those grilles over the intakes look like either thermal masking, or stealthing? Either way, you still have that honking great exhaust IR flare on each side, and a giant rotating radar reflector on top.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cache on 05 February 2022, 09:21:22
Those grilles over the intakes look like either thermal masking, or stealthing? Either way, you still have that honking great exhaust IR flare on each side, and a giant rotating radar reflector on top.
There's also an uncovered intake directly above them. I assume they're going for "reduced" rather than "eliminated" when it comes to detection. On the other hand, they could be armored vents to protect from ground fire. The upper intake wouldn't be as exposed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 05 February 2022, 12:11:30
Those grilles over the intakes look like either thermal masking, or stealthing? Either way, you still have that honking great exhaust IR flare on each side, and a giant rotating radar reflector on top.

I assume dust filters. IR masking would, as you noted, be over the exhausts.

That sensor pod looks like it completely blocks out the gunner's field of view
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 05 February 2022, 13:18:07
I'm just trying to figure out what's "super" about it...  ^-^
The fact that it can fly... with all that armor and weapons.. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 05 February 2022, 13:26:23
The fact that it can fly... with all that armor and weapons..

Fly?  Nyet komrade!  It push Earth down!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 05 February 2022, 14:23:16
It beats the air into submission.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 05 February 2022, 14:37:47
Remember, the Soviets never saw the Hind as a helicopter. They saw it as a lightly armoured, very fast armoured vehicle (quite Battletech, really ;) ) that complemented BMPs and the like.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 05 February 2022, 14:38:46
3026 missed an opportunity to show us a VTOL APC listed next to the others...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 February 2022, 15:16:20
3026 missed an opportunity to show us a VTOL APC listed next to the others...  ^-^
ran a quick version through MML.. if nothing else changes but motive type, the 10 ton APC would have an 11/17 movement.
downgrading it to an 8/12 which is a little more reasonable, it would gain an extra ton for use in expanding the troop bay or mounting extra guns.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 05 February 2022, 15:31:43
I think the 11/17 version makes more sense given the Hover version's speed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 05 February 2022, 15:54:36
Agreed; waste of time putting more guns on a heavy APC IMHO, and one extra ton of troops doesn't do much.

But back to images!

(http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/russia/mig-e8_1.jpg)

One of my favourite planes that never 'took off' - the Ye-8 variant of the venerable Mig-21. They wanted a larger radar, so they had to move the air intake to the chin position. And then for improved flight characteristics, added canards. Unfortunately the prototype crashed due to engine problems IIRC, and they went nowhere. But they almost invented the Eurofighter in 1961! The radar went on to serve in the Mig-23. But I'd rather have had this bird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 05 February 2022, 20:18:34
One of the interesting things about looking at some of the later versions of the MiG-21s and a few later models is all the after-market upgrades that take a cheap plane and make it somewhat competitive for a prospective defense force.  Just have to realize you are playing the 'quantity' end of the equation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 06 February 2022, 07:39:57
sound on for this one

https://imgur.com/gallery/rpSMWDf
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 06 February 2022, 07:58:54
That is an amazing aircraft!  How have I never heard of it before?  ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 06 February 2022, 08:27:16
Possibly because it came too late (by days) for WWII, too early for Vietnam (out by 1956) and too few (around 300 all variants) for Korea, where it was also overshadowed by jets (new toys!)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 06 February 2022, 08:43:56
That would certainly explain it, thanks!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 06 February 2022, 13:13:31
Because it saw very little combat use, from this era we hear about the aircraft that were the workhorses of air powers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ruger on 06 February 2022, 18:08:48
Possibly because it came too late (by days) for WWII, too early for Vietnam (out by 1956) and too few (around 300 all variants) for Korea, where it was also overshadowed by jets (new toys!)

Plus, it was too big for anything but the Midway-class carriers when it was introduced. 

But I love the Tigercat.

Ruger
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 February 2022, 18:56:54
It's nice, but I think I still prefer the de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet.

But I guess that also depends on if you prefer your single-seat twin-engined piston fighters to look more like a mini Mosquito or a mini A-26
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 06 February 2022, 19:04:33
when you are too tired to unload your ride before you need to get it parked
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 06 February 2022, 19:10:35
That's just a Skyraider flexing its arms.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 06 February 2022, 19:14:53
That's just a Skyraider flexing its arms.
;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 06 February 2022, 19:24:35
I didn't think they were allowed to do that with ordnance on the wings...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 06 February 2022, 19:35:13
That would be which number on the List of Things Aviators Aren't Allowed To Do, but Try Anyway ?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 06 February 2022, 20:12:05
sometime u need to finish before you know how much help you need
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 06 February 2022, 20:57:50
Classic!  ;D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 06 February 2022, 23:20:37
It's nice, but I think I still prefer the de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet.

But I guess that also depends on if you prefer your single-seat twin-engined piston fighters to look more like a mini Mosquito or a mini A-26

A-26. Naturally. Don't be jealous, now...

https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/9/6/1/5260169.jpg?v=v4cdaef1f5fb (https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/9/6/1/5260169.jpg?v=v4cdaef1f5fb)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 07 February 2022, 11:21:17
It's nice, but I think I still prefer the de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet.

But I guess that also depends on if you prefer your single-seat twin-engined piston fighters to look more like a mini Mosquito or a mini A-26

Yeah, but as slim as the tiger cat was, just wonder what it could do with marlins instead of radials
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 07 February 2022, 11:54:15
Yeah, but as slim as the tiger cat was, just wonder what it could do with marlins instead of radials

The Merlins on the Sea Hornet are actually slightly less powerful than the Double Wasps on the F7F (2070 hp vs 2100 hp) but the difference is so small as to be meaningless. Both were about at the limit of their respective designs and obviously, with piston engine fighters, there's the question of optimal altitude and performance drop off with altitude.

You could possibly re-engine the Sea Hornet with the Griffon, which in some models go up to just over 2400 hp and has a similar footprint (done, in fact, in some air racing P-51s, the Avro Lancaster, and the Spitfire among others).

The F7F might have been able to accept a Wright Duplex Cyclone with enough modification. That swap was done on the racing F8F Bearcat 'Rare Bear'
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Dave Talley on 07 February 2022, 18:54:04
Figured as much. Was just thinking the slimmer profiles might make some difference,  but probably nowhere near enough to really notice, could probably compare with the double stang F82
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 February 2022, 14:25:10
Found this photo . . . where did he stash the hat while in the cockpit?

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/90/44/7b/90447bbf4e8d0fd388725ac6f7873aa5--korat-suckers.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 February 2022, 16:16:36
picture doesn't show up?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 08 February 2022, 16:37:24
Why do you think there's a second seat?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 08 February 2022, 18:17:21
Why do you think there's a second seat?

two open canopies, probably two-seater, the air intakes look like an F-105.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 February 2022, 19:28:22
If it's any consolation, Colt, I can see the pic...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 08 February 2022, 19:59:55
two open canopies, probably two-seater, the air intakes look like an F-105.

If I were to guess, looks like an F-105G. Looks like a SHrike on the wing hardpoint (you can just see the nose...)

I once many years ago bought the 1/72 Monogram model from yesteryear with the idea of rescribing all of the raised panel lines. Once I got it out of the box, I realized they did not use a panel larger than a coke can when making this aircraft aaaand....decided against rescribing. Its a nice kit still, but held back by archaic raised panel lines (common in older kits).

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 08 February 2022, 23:32:30
Since I found it looking for Wild Weasel photos and it is black & white . . . yeah, I think you are spot on about what bird.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 10 February 2022, 18:49:44
Why do you think there's a second seat?

That's no seat, just an extra-large hat box.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 10 February 2022, 23:46:33
That's no seat, just an extra-large hat box.

if he's flying wild weasel missions, it's not a hat-box, it's where he keeps those enormous brass....yeah, I better stop now.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 18 February 2022, 09:35:34
If you're in the UK, and haven't been watching 'Big Jet TV' on YouTube today, are you even in the UK? (It's a guy standing in the paddock just outside Heathrow, livecasting the jets on approach and landing as they get blasted by Storm Eunice.) He's quite excitable when watching jets make interesting landings. At it's height earlier (i.e. just around lunchtime), he had over 185,000 live viewers.

Big Jet TV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPQh1FrbOc0)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 18 February 2022, 10:34:28
If you're in the UK, and haven't been watching 'Big Jet TV' on YouTube today, are you even in the UK? (It's a guy standing in the paddock just outside Heathrow, livecasting the jets on approach and landing as they get blasted by Storm Eunice.) He's quite excitable when watching jets make interesting landings. At it's height earlier (i.e. just around lunchtime), he had over 185,000 live viewers.

Big Jet TV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPQh1FrbOc0)

thank you for this :) saw this guy being mentioned on BBC news so now i'm watching, darn exciting. and the chaps enthusiasm and excitement, combined with his sheer britishness just add to it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 18 February 2022, 13:32:28
And here's a clip from inside the cockpit of one of those landings during the storm - with the Big Jets Live commentary and external footage.

Landing a 777 in a thirty-year storm (https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/1494730533082963975)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 18 February 2022, 16:58:55
If you're in the UK, and haven't been watching 'Big Jet TV' on YouTube today, are you even in the UK? (It's a guy standing in the paddock just outside Heathrow, livecasting the jets on approach and landing as they get blasted by Storm Eunice.) He's quite excitable when watching jets make interesting landings. At it's height earlier (i.e. just around lunchtime), he had over 185,000 live viewers.

Big Jet TV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPQh1FrbOc0)

Whilst I am in the UK (and already aware of Big Jet TV) watching wasn't an option as I was working (joy's of my line of work), but its a great channel to watch. (Helps that he's a red as well YNWA!).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 February 2022, 17:09:37
Amazing video!  Thanks for sharing!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: marauder648 on 19 February 2022, 04:46:29
Basically everyone watching

https://twitter.com/BigJetTVLIVE/status/1494812583202893829
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Ghost0402 on 19 February 2022, 15:59:32
Basically everyone watching

https://twitter.com/BigJetTVLIVE/status/1494812583202893829
Some of those landings were pretty impressive.  And much better to watch from the outside too.   :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Colt Ward on 24 February 2022, 02:11:01
(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/US-2-top-new.jpg?resize=678%2C381&ssl=1)

I was not aware these sort of craft were really in use- large amphib planes.  At a guess, they probably have the most advanced prop engines we can design since I think it would be a bit difficult to use jets (lol, sure some 50s test occurred) with that 'type' of runway (hello FoD).  This shot comes from a joint US-Japan exercise going on off Guam.  This bird has a 'activity radius' of 1900km while it needs 280m to launch and 330m to land.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 24 February 2022, 02:24:34
Well, specifically flying boats. There are a handful, and even some jet ones. You just mount the engines high and let the wing shield it. I think corrosion is the bigger issue. That and the limits of sea state they can operate in.

Beriev Be-200 (19 made)
(https://www.aircraftinformation.info/Images/Be-200_03.jpg)

Harbin SH-5 (7 made). They might all be retired now. I don't see any recent photos of operational aircraft
(https://i1.wp.com/www.avionslegendaires.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Gsh5-3.jpg?ssl=1)

The AVIC AG600 currently undergoing testing:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/AG-600_at_Airshow_China_2016_%28cropped%29.jpg/1280px-AG-600_at_Airshow_China_2016_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 February 2022, 08:27:50
Some US Navy programs that went nowhere:

The P6M SeaMaster

(https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/P6M-SeaMaster1.jpg)

The F2Y Sea Dart

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/f57485_719d38d77bda441cbf8886d1ca0b361d~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_600,h_293,al_c,q_90/f57485_719d38d77bda441cbf8886d1ca0b361d~mv2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 27 February 2022, 17:23:42
Please don't try to make this political, nor take anything out of the following article than the salient point, but...

The only Mriya, the An-225, has been destroyed by most accounts:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/world-s-largest-cargo-aircraft-was-destroyed-during-a-russian-attack-on-an-airfield-ukrainian-minister-says/ar-AAUnzu7?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/world-s-largest-cargo-aircraft-was-destroyed-during-a-russian-attack-on-an-airfield-ukrainian-minister-says/ar-AAUnzu7?ocid=msedgntp)

We all know the C-5 is ultimately better for what they both do (move large, heavy things long distances), but the An-225 was still the largest aircraft so far in actual use. But not any more.

EDIT: Spelling
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 27 February 2022, 17:41:32
I missed a chance to see her in person, and now I never will.  A shame, truly. 
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 27 February 2022, 17:46:00
A shame indeed.  :-\
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 27 February 2022, 19:25:49
Please don't try to make this political, nor take anything out of the followign article than the salient point, but...

The only Mriya, the An-225, has been destroyed by most accounts:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/world-s-largest-cargo-aircraft-was-destroyed-during-a-russian-attack-on-an-airfield-ukrainian-minister-says/ar-AAUnzu7?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/world-s-largest-cargo-aircraft-was-destroyed-during-a-russian-attack-on-an-airfield-ukrainian-minister-says/ar-AAUnzu7?ocid=msedgntp)

We all know the C-5 is ultimately better for what they both do (move large, heavy things long distances), but the An-225 was still the largest aircraft so far in actual use. But not any more.

The An-225 is a unique plane for a unique job, like the Stratolaunch Roc. The ability to carry cargo was sort of a natural residual capability and it wasn't as good as the vanilla An-124 for most transport jobs (the -225 removes the rear ramp to save weight).

Alas.

In the meantime, here are a couple other behemoths:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Hughes_H-4_Evergreen_Museum.jpg/1280px-Hughes_H-4_Evergreen_Museum.jpg)
(https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/images/stratolaunch-2018-image04.jpg)]
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 27 February 2022, 20:06:39
Stratolauch airplane is such a weird looking craft.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 27 February 2022, 20:13:57
Are both cockpits on that thing fully functional? ???
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 27 February 2022, 20:46:19
Are both cockpits on that thing fully functional? ???

No, but they used two 747 fuselages, so wanted to keep it symmetrical.

Stratolauch airplane is such a weird looking craft.

It's a Scaled Composites (aka Burt Rutan) project. Being symmetrical was already a bit more normal than a lot of their creations get.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 28 February 2022, 04:10:37
A missed opporunity for redundancy, but I suppose it saved a LOT of cash.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 05 March 2022, 18:57:44
So, again, not a political issue in the slightest here, but it turns out that Hinds and Stingers still don't get along together after all these years:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-shares-footage-that-appears-to-show-a-russian-helicopter-gunship-shot-down-in-flames-with-a-stinger-portable-air-defense-system-say-reports/ar-AAUEYtA?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-shares-footage-that-appears-to-show-a-russian-helicopter-gunship-shot-down-in-flames-with-a-stinger-portable-air-defense-system-say-reports/ar-AAUEYtA?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

Please note that I linked to the article vice the original Twitter feed because of the general nature of the latter's comment-section. For now, I will presume this is real (nowadays, it is hard to distinguish fact from fiction without independent verification from three sources signed in triplicate from an additional three authorities)

Above all, say a prayer for the lost--in this action, in this conflict, and in all to come, from whatever side.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 07 March 2022, 19:07:19
Here's what happens when you leave your plane in the wrong part of town...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 07 March 2022, 19:10:06
The heck?

That is definitely worse (and definitely a hull loss) than any hangar or parking-lot rash that I've ever seen. And I've read Alaska reports of a 737 vertical stabilizer getting ripped off because of a ground-ops foul-up.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 07 March 2022, 19:14:54
Up until last month, this was one of the planes I was flying.  Happened the week after I quit working for that company. 

The plane had been somewhat of a hanger queen and the company had just spent more than a few $$ chasing down all the last few gremlins to get it working gripe free again.

I guess the PC 12 decided to taxi at warp speed instead of walking speed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 07 March 2022, 19:35:59
So, again, not a political issue in the slightest here, but it turns out that Hinds and Stingers still don't get along together after all these years:
That's not a Stinger btw, going by flight course and explosive pattern. Given low-angle frontal hit possibly Strela-3 or Igla-1.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 07 March 2022, 19:54:46
That makes perfect sense, especially considering the smoke trail was greater than any Stinger launch I've seen. I mean, they make smoke, but not usually that thick. Thanks.

Maybe amend the sentence to "Hinds and MANPADS" and we can both sleep better tonight. :)


And just because: https://youtu.be/TLaYqNPwZ2U (https://youtu.be/TLaYqNPwZ2U)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 07 March 2022, 20:15:21
Up until last month, this was one of the planes I was flying.  Happened the week after I quit working for that company. 

The plane had been somewhat of a hanger queen and the company had just spent more than a few $$ chasing down all the last few gremlins to get it working gripe free again.

I guess the PC 12 decided to taxi at warp speed instead of walking speed.

So that's a Hawker that bit the dust, yes? Did the PC-12 also go to the great hangar in the sky?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 07 March 2022, 20:24:10
I would assume the PC12 is guano.  That wing sitting there on the ground was the PC 12 wing.  It was going fast enough that it ripped the wing off and kept going another 20 yds or so. 

That Hawker was one of about 50 Hawker 1000s made, and one of 13 that were still flying.  My company had 2 of them.  Seems I kept getting type rated for stuff that was only being flown by them (Falcon 10, Hawker 1000).

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 07 March 2022, 21:51:47
Assuming the PC-12 was taxiing for or after flight, that's an NTSB investigation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 07 March 2022, 21:56:52
Yeah I would say the feds got involved.  I haven't been in the loop since it happened.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 08 March 2022, 20:14:21
So... it seems some An-2s are still around in Russian service...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 08 March 2022, 21:31:15
if they still work, why get rid of them?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: worktroll on 09 March 2022, 00:16:40
Great for dropping things off in random fields.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 09 March 2022, 01:07:09
It's likely they are converting them to bait drones, like Azeris did.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 09 March 2022, 01:08:04
according to recent reports, they've fitted them with radio controls and are using them as drones to lure SAM sites into revealing themselves
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 09 March 2022, 04:18:53
I wonder what the price ratio is between an An-2 and a MANPAD...  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: PsihoKekec on 09 March 2022, 12:30:08
I wonder what the price ratio is between an An-2 and a MANPAD...  8)

It's more likely they intend them to bait the radar SAM units, rather than everyone with MANPAD on the ground.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Rainbow 6 on 09 March 2022, 17:48:34
That's not a Stinger btw, going by flight course and explosive pattern. Given low-angle frontal hit possibly Strela-3 or Igla-1.

It was a polish Piorun apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piorun_(missile) at least according to the translation on twitter of a post by the ukrainian defence ministry.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 09 March 2022, 18:07:04
Fixed link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piorun_(missile))
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 15 March 2022, 12:32:48
Germany became the 15th nation to buy the F-35 on Monday.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/15/europe/germany-f-35-fighter-jets-replace-tornado-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/15/europe/germany-f-35-fighter-jets-replace-tornado-intl/index.html)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 15 March 2022, 14:14:38
Germany became the 15th nation to buy the F-35 on Monday.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/15/europe/germany-f-35-fighter-jets-replace-tornado-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/15/europe/germany-f-35-fighter-jets-replace-tornado-intl/index.html)

Thats awesome. See what happens when you expand your budget.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 15 March 2022, 14:30:06
Thats awesome. See what happens when you expand your budget.

You get to keep your borrowed nukes?  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 16 March 2022, 03:14:04
Thats awesome. See what happens when you expand your budget.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the budget, and everything to do with the mutual lobby war in the defence industry between Lockheed-Martin and Boeing (who originally had this fairly secure in the pocket).
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 18 March 2022, 14:38:47
(https://i.redd.it/jf6ffcetx0o81.jpg)

From the /r/WeirdWings (https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/tgmqzi/a_u2r_model_in_the_lockheed_low_speed_wind_tunnel/) Reddit: a model U-2R in Lockheed's low-speed windtunnel with 14 hardpoints (:o) under the wings.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 18 March 2022, 18:12:12
I, um, didn't know they were stressed for things like that...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 18 March 2022, 18:22:34
I, um, didn't know they were stressed for things like that...

I don't think they are, and I suspect the drag at altitude would make the plane unflyable: as I recall, there's only a 15-30 kt window between cruise speed and stall speed at altitude.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 18 March 2022, 19:27:08
To maintain their operational altitude at 70,000ft, early versions had to fly within a margin of 10kts between stall speed and vNE. Guess why they call the angle between those two graph lines the Coffin Corner.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 18 March 2022, 20:06:04
I don't think they are, and I suspect the drag at altitude would make the plane unflyable: as I recall, there's only a 15-30 kt window between cruise speed and stall speed at altitude.

I was being a bit facetious. The wheels at the end of the wingtips are there for a reason. Just like SR-71s were anything but sleek before they got airborne, up to speed, and their airframes shook themselves out.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 March 2022, 20:26:30
I was being a bit facetious. The wheels at the end of the wingtips are there for a reason. Just like SR-71s were anything but sleek before they got airborne, up to speed, and their airframes shook themselves out.
Don't forget "warmed up"... temperature is what sealed their gas tanks, as I recall...  ^-^
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 18 March 2022, 20:53:10
Exactly.

https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/heres-why-the-sr-71-was-actually-designed-to-leak-fuel-all-over-the-tarmac/#:~:text=The%20leakage%20was%20also%20attributed%20to%20the%20SR-71%E2%80%99s,airframe%20could%20expand.%20Once%20again%2C%20this%20proved%20advantageous. (https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/heres-why-the-sr-71-was-actually-designed-to-leak-fuel-all-over-the-tarmac/#:~:text=The%20leakage%20was%20also%20attributed%20to%20the%20SR-71%E2%80%99s,airframe%20could%20expand.%20Once%20again%2C%20this%20proved%20advantageous.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 18 March 2022, 22:07:01
Thank you for the back up good sir!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 18 March 2022, 23:18:57
Somehow I get the impression the engineers back then where thinking  - and allowed to think - outside the box more often than today.
Such a design today would probably fail on environmental standards alone...
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 19 March 2022, 00:00:59
apparently they didn't like it back then either but they couldn't figure out a way to build a fuel tank that would work at both ambient temps and the intense heat of mach 3 travel. they best they could do was a tank that exploited that heat to seal itself when the plane was at or above cruising speed.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 19 March 2022, 00:38:16
It's one of the reasons the SR-71 was such a hanger queen, IIRC.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 19 March 2022, 02:30:27
It's one of the reasons the SR-71 was such a hanger queen, IIRC.

Other than each one being a bespoke hand-built custom hot rod?  :D

Ben Rich did sometimes have an engineer's ignorance of real world operating limitations though. I recall him lamenting in his book that a half dozen Skunk Works staff could do the same maintenance work on a Blackbird that would take the Air Force 40 or 50 guys.

Well yeah, a lot of things are possible when you start off with the world's top cherry-picked engineers who happen to be the subject matter experts on the plane's exotic technology who happened to design and build the plane in the first place  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 19 March 2022, 02:53:23
...And that don't have to work in shifts, deploy, or participate in drills and the other minutia associated with serving in, well, the military.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 19 March 2022, 06:26:05
...And that don't have to work in shifts, deploy, or participate in drills and the other minutia associated with serving in, well, the military.

lol, indeed.

(tries to imagine some of OUR engineers trying to maintain an aircraft-in-service.)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 20 March 2022, 04:06:00
Polaris since this week now actually has a contract to build a scale demonstrator of their Aurora spaceplane based on the "Rapid Deployable Reconnaissance System" (RDRS) study they did last year.

(https://abload.de/img/polaris7ik7t.jpg)

Aurora is a TSTO spaceplane originally projected at German Space Agency DLR for small orbital loads up to 1 ton, and considered worthwhile enough to be spun off by DLR into a commercial company developing it (Polaris). The company has some smaller-scale demonstrators flying for handling tests, first demonstrator flight was in April 2020.

The company also has a research contract from ESA in a joint-venture with Spanish company Elecnor Deimos to develop reusable upper stages for Aurora. Their current demonstrator called ALEDA (below) includes such a - removable - reusable winged upper stage model, their business case is about using conventional upper stages though.

(https://abload.de/img/aleda0aklv.jpg)

RDRS is a downscaled suborbital military version of Aurora without the upper stage, intended as a hypersonic (Mach 8-10) carrier for reconnaissance loads. At its full scale it has been proposed to run on EJ-200 turbojet engines from Eurofighters for takeoff and landing with a cryogenic liquid-fuel rocket motor for high speed at altitude; Aurora if ever to be fully developed would use Aerospike engines instead. The military application is part of their business case for Aurora btw, the envisioned use is probably not unlike SR-71/D-21 operation albeit in a single package.

The demonstrator they are building now is for the recently established Space Command of the German Military and more than twice the size and ten times the weight of ALEDA above. They plan to have it ready for a test campaign by the end of this year, tests will involve in-flight handling of engines and cryogenics, behavior under "large shifts of center of gravity" as well as turnaround and maintenance processes.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 20 March 2022, 06:31:28
The end of this year is pretty ambitious... I wish them luck!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 20 March 2022, 07:45:08
The end of this year is pretty ambitious... I wish them luck!  :thumbsup:
They probably had that demonstrator planned on their development roadmap anyway, and that gives their engineering team something to do - plus this way they can get some money for the resulting data. Likely not too much, but enough to simply keep the team going - the research study for RDRS they did last year got them about quarter million.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 22 March 2022, 16:37:42
There's just something so 70's sci-fi about dark glossy paint schemes with bright markings and bort numbers, especially on bulbous craft with greebles.

CT-155 Hawks from the NATO flying school in Canada
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8850/17401160581_8062cfcc34_b.jpg)

Swedish Saab 105
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Saab_105OE_10.jpg/1280px-Saab_105OE_10.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: monbvol on 22 March 2022, 16:46:45
There's something about that second picture that makes me think there should be a road below them with one of those "patrolled by aircraft" signs.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 22 March 2022, 17:49:54
And for more weirdness, remember the Skyfox? (Independent project then acquired by Boeing).

It's based on a T-33 airframe with  more modern engines mounted A-10 style.

(https://i.redd.it/f0zpmr6sj3o11.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9E9VWTQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rptVQID.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AES8Vxg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/o2vtBgF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EbNKN6O.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Garrand on 22 March 2022, 21:07:23
And for more weirdness, remember the Skyfox? (Independent project then acquired by Boeing).

It's based on a T-33 airframe with  more modern engines mounted A-10 style.

Is this some sort of light attack prototype? Or aero engineers just messing around?

Coincidentally, I was in Guayaquil today & saw an AT-33 as a monument in the city. We were in the car, so no time to take a picture of a relatively rare bird.

Damon.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 22 March 2022, 21:52:18
The uppermost photo looks as if Boeing tried to promote the Skyfox as an SR-71 successor  8)
Is this some sort of light attack prototype? Or aero engineers just messing around?
Primary trainer, with the usual possibility to develop it into a light attack plane, like the T-37 Tweet/A-37 Dragonfly.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 24 March 2022, 10:27:57
(https://www.airforcetimes.com/resizer/8l2LQqIRZUBKSGVCLKr0Wym70UM=/1024x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mco/IY5UJ4OJSBAC3L2SHPHVK6654E.jpg)

An F-22 Raptor suffered a mishap upon landing at Eglin Air Force Base Florida on Tuesday. An F-22 experienced an almost identical landing gear collapse accident a year ago on March 15 2021, which also involved a jet from the 325th Fighter Wing at Eglin

The Pilot was OK.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: kato on 24 March 2022, 14:02:34
(https://abload.de/img/ch53r2k9t.jpg)

CH-53G delivering mountain infantry at 5300 ft MSL altitude.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 31 March 2022, 04:22:11
So I've been contemplating what a communist military with a bare minimum of Soviet equipment would actually look like (there's really no getting around it for air defence systems and guided missiles), and found the most adorable little Czech helicopter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_HC-2_Heli_Baby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_HC-2_Heli_Baby)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Aero_HC-2_Heli_Baby%2C_National_Technical_Museum_%28Prague%29.JPG/1024px-Aero_HC-2_Heli_Baby%2C_National_Technical_Museum_%28Prague%29.JPG)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 31 March 2022, 04:58:41
That's a terrifying prospect - it's like a two-person rotor backpack! The direct yoke connection to the rotor mast is ... interesting.

It does look like something out of a cute animé, though!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 31 March 2022, 05:09:25
That's a terrifying prospect - it's like a two-person rotor backpack!

BT's VTOL Micro-copter Infantry  :))
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 31 March 2022, 05:26:49
I want to paint it white with black spots and call it Snoopy.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 31 March 2022, 13:20:10
Things that are weird:

WiGE aircraft
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d9/44/b3/d944b363c6d14b341f01e04f462c60df.jpg)

Biplanes
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Hawker_Biplanes_2_%285922654750%29.jpg/1280px-Hawker_Biplanes_2_%285922654750%29.jpg)

An-2s
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Antonov_AN-2_%28cropped%29.jpg)


Things that are extra weird: An-2 biplane WiGEs
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/An-2E.jpg/1280px-An-2E.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/An-2_converted_into_WIG_%28Rybachy%2C_Kaliningrad_Oblast_-_2006_08_15%29.jpg/1024px-An-2_converted_into_WIG_%28Rybachy%2C_Kaliningrad_Oblast_-_2006_08_15%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: God and Davion on 31 March 2022, 13:24:20
Awww... man. You made my day :o :o :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 31 March 2022, 13:26:40
BT's VTOL Micro-copter Infantry  :))

I figure those look more like this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Gyrodyne_XRON_Rotocycle_Cradle_of_Aviation_Museum.jpg/800px-Gyrodyne_XRON_Rotocycle_Cradle_of_Aviation_Museum.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Pentecost_Backpack_Helicopter.JPG)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Martin_Jetpack_Unveiling%2C_Liftoff%21_%282714934801%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Bedwyr on 31 March 2022, 13:34:42
Keep the weird stuff coming, I love it.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 31 March 2022, 14:35:12
Could also be this:
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ckN1O3uZk2y1vTucg3hRUA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTM2MDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/GLdalteEB3PL5BQuzCH0Gw--~B/aD01NDk7dz05NzY7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/bbc_us_articles_995/6009ca3929975dda01579e55d67fad34)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jetpack-design-helped-create-flying-010612064.html
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 31 March 2022, 17:43:25
That last one's not showing for me, and give the recent weirdness, I NEED to see it!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 31 March 2022, 18:25:48
The pics are from the article but..
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 31 March 2022, 19:01:58
VERY cool, thanks!  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 04 April 2022, 18:31:06
de Lackner HZ-1 Aerocycle

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiZgpXKdYp0JuAdaW4fVSRgUHTV0M1jgzmZnrWjRWMw2D6WzbHcx1TkjpC1MEYw2Q2gMZA2dcagzXLZfw2UqNlvIMGeiq0PVRijE_3ZSJw2tXZFI8JbQFgMWHDUIOgeQXRhxVzZbuDPlw8inH6pihNoKbgcUgad5xdFmOLHEAGexcPUeVNgpV0yM5kd=w640-h440)


Hiller VZ-1 Pawnee

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Hiller_VZ-1_Pawnee_%281955%29.jpg)


Piasecki VZ-8 Airgeep

(https://preview.redd.it/ckmbm7kqu5h11.jpg?auto=webp&s=680fdc0af992c3101f6ab857342730e2dc59de2a)


Williams X-Jet

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QpSrjFtvXYw/TZPiR2sONFI/AAAAAAAABD8/Gvgr3vBmRfs/s1600/20000611mag-phenomenon.1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 April 2022, 19:27:41
I can't believe anyone voluntarily got into any of those.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: DOC_Agren on 04 April 2022, 20:36:27
I can't believe anyone voluntarily got into any of those.
I like the jeep the others are skeet shooting targets, but that the same as the new [url-https://www.forces.net/news/navy-and-marines-test-ship-boarding-jet-suit]navy boarding jet suit[/url]
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 04 April 2022, 21:37:38
I wouldn't trust the stability of any of them.  They look like they'd flip over on you at the slightest provocation.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 04 April 2022, 22:25:55
I can't believe anyone voluntarily got into any of those.
They were volunteered?  ;)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 04 April 2022, 22:31:30
They were volunteered?  ;)

People were BOLDER then.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 04 April 2022, 23:38:37
More like voluntold I imagine.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 05 April 2022, 00:43:11
People were BOLDER then.

People were more expendable then. And frequently much less sober.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 05 April 2022, 03:20:10
Let us say the 50's and 60's were a different time...  ::)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 05 April 2022, 03:35:34
I guess that has been said since antiquity, about every decade  :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Cannonshop on 05 April 2022, 09:17:46
I guess that has been said since antiquity, about every decade  :)

You gotta remember a couple things about that era though;

1. The people leading those people fought World War 2.

2. It was only a generation or two past the age of iron men and wooden derricks.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 05 April 2022, 12:35:39
You gotta remember a couple things about that era though;

1. The people leading those people fought World War 2.

2. It was only a generation or two past the age of iron men and wooden derricks.

Maybe a Mecadonian veteran of Alexander's march to India, or a Roman one from the Punic wars thought the same way... :)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 05 April 2022, 15:46:23
How about any generation that ate dirt, slept under an iron rain and watched an artificial sunset in a blink of an eye? Trench warfare, incoming rounds both explodey and non, and the afterglow of a fireball, atomics or other.

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: dgorsman on 05 April 2022, 23:08:54
The test flights from the photos were done under very controlled circumstances, and never proceeded far enough to where they were doing anything truly outrageous.  Or at least, no more outrageous than those designs.  And yes, safety procedures were a lot less obviously safe, just 'safe enough'.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 April 2022, 00:10:19
I don't know how many people are familiar with Kei cars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car) or Kei trucks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_truck), but hey, it's time for some Kei planes! (Thanks to the /r/WeirdWings subreddit)

First the Bede BD-5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_BD-5) as seen in the opening of Octopussy:
In prop form in very early 50's USAF-style markings:
(https://www.skytamer.com/1.2/2001/1328.jpg)

With a twin boom tail:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/c9/99/4ec99986fa10c69a420ebc1512b5c599.jpg)

In jet form:
(https://revivaler.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/FLS-Microjet-prweb.com-2.jpg)

A real tight squeeze
(https://buildandfly.shop/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/BEDE-BD-5-PLANS-AND-INFORMATION-SET-FOR-HOMEBUILD-AIRCRAFT-6.jpg)


Sonex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonex_Aircraft) has a whole family of homebuild kits
JSX-1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonex_Aircraft_SubSonex) jet
(https://www.sonexaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Update_113012_8382.jpg?is-pending-load=1)

JSX-2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonex_Aircraft_SubSonex) jet
(https://www.aopa.org/-/media/images/aopa-main/news-and-media/2018/june/0619_subsonex_reno.jpg?mw=650&mh=866&as=1&hash=039A21BFE5EEF9208FBC7CAFDF30C549756B39F3)
(https://s30121.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SubSonex_VanderMuelen.jpg)

Sonex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonex_Aircraft_Sonex) prop (this one with floats)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/N12SX_Sonex_On_Floats.jpg/1024px-N12SX_Sonex_On_Floats.jpg)

Xenos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonex_Xenos) motor glider (this one painted up like a Korean War-era Sabre)
(https://www.airport-data.com/images/aircraft/000/509/509567.jpg)

The BK Flyer (not a Whopper)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/BK_Flyer_BK1001_N988BK.jpg/1024px-BK_Flyer_BK1001_N988BK.jpg)

The Stits SA-2A Sky Baby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stits_SA-2A_Sky_Baby), former record holder for world's smallest aircraft with probably absolute deathtrap handling.
One comment notes:
Quote
Tiny roll damping
Tiny moments of inertia
Probably on the wrong side of the drag curve all the time because of massive drag due to lift, therefore speed unstable.
Low AR wing means very shallow lift curve slope, so lots of α needed. Therefore high likelihood of finding nasty inertial couples.

The fact that it survived for 25 hours suggests careful flying by a sensible pilot, especially given that its absolute endurance would have been about an hour assuming no unusable fuel, so about 15 minutes of safe flying time with §91 reserves (30 minutes) after warm-up and taxi.
(https://preview.redd.it/j72iqj8hx6z71.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=fcb804b444c8a54101c579422568256247dd07d6)
(https://preview.redd.it/qik3y2cjx6z71.png?width=900&format=png&auto=webp&s=c259e50f5fadbbd3a12eadd20b5f6e63bc329537)

Not sure if it was displaced by the Starr Bumble Bee I/II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starr_Bumble_Bee_II) (II was destroyed in a crash, severely injuring the creator/pilot)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48382384972_0f3ac25fe5_b.jpg)

Edit: Added in Wikipedia links
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 April 2022, 00:24:24
As for weird helos, how about this civilian Kamov Ka-26 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-26)?

Their trademark coaxial rotors, but powered by a pair of radial engines
and a rear modular pod setup?

(https://external-preview.redd.it/F62l2C933j91ZZtPazaYqEGnTXGzE4mFICr8rH9jyiA.jpg?auto=webp&s=300cfc9a8ba2ad3a7134cc14ef60907ae4489e89)

The newer Ka-226 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-226) goes with a modern turboshaft, but has the same modular setup
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Kamov_Ka-226_MAKS_2005.jpg/1024px-Kamov_Ka-226_MAKS_2005.jpg)

And from the US, there are the Kaman designs with intermeshing rotors. First up, the K-MAX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman_K-MAX) optimized for external sling operations
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Yakmx_2b_%2829167519213%29.jpg/1241px-Yakmx_2b_%2829167519213%29.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/af/c3/49afc3bb783f0b5b594035ac05295db4.jpg)

An unmanned version:
(https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2017/06/420.kmax_yuma_unmanned.jpg)

And its ancestor, the Kaman HH-43 Huskie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman_HH-43_Huskie)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/04/ab/4704ab940035f7c11947ec552a73312f.jpg)

Edit: Added wiki links
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 06 April 2022, 00:27:23
I don't know how many people are familiar with Kei cars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car) or Kei trucks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_truck), but hey, it's time for some Kei planes! (Thanks to the /r/WeirdWings subreddit)

First the Bede BD-5 as seen in the opening of Octopussy:
In prop form in very early 50's USAF-style markings:
(https://www.skytamer.com/1.2/2001/1328.jpg)


Back about 30 years ago, my dad worked with a guy who did VW repair on the side, who was also building one of these in his garage.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 April 2022, 00:42:57
So how does a push-rotor aircraft's performance and handling differ from a standard pull-rotor?  I assume it's got to have problems given that pull-rotors are the norm?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 April 2022, 01:09:41
So how does a push-rotor aircraft's performance and handling differ from a standard pull-rotor?  I assume it's got to have problems given that pull-rotors are the norm?

It changes the weight distribution (more weight at the back from the engine) and the fuselage blocks some of the airflow to the pusher prop. Cooling issues were a recurring problem for high-powered pusher prop designs, which makes sense when you realize that even many front-engine designs like the Griffon-powered Spitfires had trouble keeping their monster motors cool.

I've seen claims it's also more dangerous in a crash landing because if the engine tears loose from the frame, that big chunk of metal is likely to go through the cabin
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 April 2022, 01:13:24
And now, a chibi sailplane, the LAK Genesis 2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAK_Genesis_2). Love the slight forward sweep of the wings. Given the dimensions, the sweep is to keep center of lift/center of gravity balanced. Designed by a US team, but made in Lithuania.

(https://preview.redd.it/00of5vj4sy881.jpg?width=1078&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1a9cf3c749afa3969000a953a14c8a1fdd121a4)
(https://preview.redd.it/y7yn05n4sy881.jpg?width=1025&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=82e4a5b309ecaa00db6c61477619d409930086e5)

Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 06 April 2022, 01:18:51
It changes the weight distribution (more weight at the back from the engine) and the fuselage blocks some of the airflow to the pusher prop. Cooling issues were a recurring problem for high-powered pusher prop designs, which makes sense when you realize that even many front-engine designs like the Griffon-powered Spitfires had trouble keeping their monster motors cool.

I've seen claims it's also more dangerous in a crash landing because if the engine tears loose from the frame, that big chunk of metal is like to through the cabin

Ah, that makes sense.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CVB on 06 April 2022, 07:10:50
Wikipedia offers an entry on pusher configurations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_configuration), including advantages and disadvantages.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 April 2022, 15:28:35
Wikipedia offers an entry on pusher configurations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_configuration), including advantages and disadvantages.
the heyday of the pusher config was around WW1, where it had advantages in terms of weapons placement (at least, prior to the development of the interrupter gear) as well as sometimes being combined with tractor mounted engines to double the propulsive power without dealing with extra engine mounting locations. never really was all that effective though.

of course one could argue that most modern aircraft are "pusher" types, due to the placement and mechanics of the jet engines.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 06 April 2022, 17:04:36
the heyday of the pusher config was around WW1, where it had advantages in terms of weapons placement (at least, prior to the development of the interrupter gear) as well as sometimes being combined with tractor mounted engines to double the propulsive power without dealing with extra engine mounting locations. never really was all that effective though.

of course one could argue that most modern aircraft are "pusher" types, due to the placement and mechanics of the jet engines.

They also make sense for aircraft with a tri-plane or canard layout like the Piaggio P.180, Beech Starship, or Rutan Long E-Z. It puts the weight of the engines closer to the center of lift.

Kyushu J7W Shinden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyushu_J7W_Shinden)
(https://i.redd.it/giw94i0j3wpz.jpg)

Curtiss-Wright XP-55 Ascender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss-Wright_XP-55_Ascender)
(https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/p-55/images/kzoo_p-55_39.jpg)

Henschel HS P.75 (http://www.luft46.com/henschel/hsp75.html)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9cTH32ZwME4/UvXvJRxgDzI/AAAAAAAANBU/91N-NyvDoXQ/s1600/Henschel+HsP.75+02.JPG)

And the fictional plane they inspired, the Hughes Bloodhawk (http://www.montanaraiders.com/mirror/universe/planes/bloodhawk.htm) from Crimson Skies
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/crimsonskies/images/5/5b/Plane_BloodHawk.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090521181302)

The gorgeous Beech Starship. AKA, Rutan exercising some degree of restraint
(https://0c362696c3578ae7bc01-16b11b40c48ad30544d19be29645b401.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/Starship_1357.jpg)

The Piaggio P.180
(http://www.sales.airflite.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Avanti_EVO_7-762x456.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Piaggio_P-180_Avanti_Rennes_2010_%28cropped%29.jpg/1024px-Piaggio_P-180_Avanti_Rennes_2010_%28cropped%29.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/2010-04-11_14_28_33_Switzerland_Kloten_Kaserne_%28cropped%29.jpg)

The Starship and the Piaggio are supposed to be loud as the dickens, I assume because of mutual interference from the engines
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: truetanker on 06 April 2022, 17:46:06
Those Micro-planes are so cute.

They remind me of when I was playing Twilight:2000 and we had Gyrocopters and Motorized Gliders with the Heavier than Air Blimps.

Good times...

TT
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Fat Guy on 07 April 2022, 09:21:31
 Another bad pusher:The Bell FM-1 Airacuda. So many bad ideas on one aircraft.

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/omCUwyDFCFtDRopmIKx7D1slMgI=/fit-in/1600x0/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/9c/12/9c12bbcf-44ae-4ad1-a4a1-47176124e0cd/23586820864_4cdb4bdc8d_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 07 April 2022, 09:26:14
Another bad pusher:The Bell FM-1 Airacuda. So many bad ideas on one aircraft.

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/omCUwyDFCFtDRopmIKx7D1slMgI=/fit-in/1600x0/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/9c/12/9c12bbcf-44ae-4ad1-a4a1-47176124e0cd/23586820864_4cdb4bdc8d_o.jpg)

Man, that'd be right at home in Crimson Skies
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 07 April 2022, 09:33:28
When you hit the ground, tell em, Nathan Zachary sent you!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 April 2022, 17:38:26
Another bad pusher:The Bell FM-1 Airacuda. So many bad ideas on one aircraft.

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/omCUwyDFCFtDRopmIKx7D1slMgI=/fit-in/1600x0/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/9c/12/9c12bbcf-44ae-4ad1-a4a1-47176124e0cd/23586820864_4cdb4bdc8d_o.jpg)

Is that a blister turret on the fuselage?
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Weirdo on 07 April 2022, 17:59:57
Geez, how loud must it have been in those wing pods?!? :o
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 07 April 2022, 18:02:57
VERY!  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 07 April 2022, 18:17:45
Is that a blister turret on the fuselage?

Blisters are usually for observation although I think some of them did allow a machine gun to be poked out in a flexible mount
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 07 April 2022, 23:47:59
I know the B-17 mounted machine guns in side blisters on some models.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Luciora on 08 April 2022, 00:09:05
Catalinas also had blister waist guns as well. 

I know the B-17 mounted machine guns in side blisters on some models.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: I am Belch II on 08 April 2022, 04:58:11
Another bad pusher:The Bell FM-1 Airacuda. So many bad ideas on one aircraft.

(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/omCUwyDFCFtDRopmIKx7D1slMgI=/fit-in/1600x0/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/9c/12/9c12bbcf-44ae-4ad1-a4a1-47176124e0cd/23586820864_4cdb4bdc8d_o.jpg)


I was watching something about the Airacuda last night. There was a more updated version that got rid of the blisters on the side and replaced with normal windows with guns like bombers.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 08 April 2022, 17:57:13
One thing I have to thank /r/WeirdWings for is answering one of my longtime questions - what the early gun-armed CF-100 Canucks looked like with the belly 8-pack of .50 MGs

(https://i.redd.it/6ephqom1cmg81.jpg)

Smile!
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 08 April 2022, 18:09:59
A new German planemaker named after the Horten brothers presumably because of their interest in flying wings.

(https://i.redd.it/04kzryutcy181.jpg)


The Northrop JB-1 Bat. Kind of a flyable prototype for a proposed V-1 style cruise missile.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Northrop_JB-1_Bat_test_glider.jpg)
(https://airmuseumguide.com/amg/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/wmof_MG_3492.jpg)

The Fauval AV.36, a French tailless sailplane from the 1950s
(https://img.fotocommunity.com/fauvel-av-36]d431d3ff-8c33-475e-ac3a-599e22dff3ca.jpg?height=1080)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Fauvel_AV-36_CR.JPG/1280px-Fauvel_AV-36_CR.JPG)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/5488/31290588332_820f064c5e_b.jpg)

And another mini-jet (also French from the 1950s), the SIPA S.200 Minijet
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/SIPA_S.200_Minijet_286-MP-par-05200.jpg/1258px-SIPA_S.200_Minijet_286-MP-par-05200.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Sipa_200_Minijet_1955.jpg)
(https://preview.redd.it/oef0wqpn5bh81.jpg?width=1646&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2857bbc4c1fb0fd7de0d1564db1836e67c88a237)
(https://preview.redd.it/px4hjddl5bh81.jpg?width=4518&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d783bf6d921103292dbb84a71762cd0571162dc6)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Simon Landmine on 08 April 2022, 19:53:09
Is that a blister turret on the fuselage?

According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know) they had a .50cal in each side blister (at least, as designed and originally built, but they only made twelve of them!), while the suicide jockey nacelle gunners were each there to load a 37mm cannon (that filled the nacelles with smoke) and swear at the .30cal mounted alongside them.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 08 April 2022, 20:41:26
WiGE WiGE woo!

RFB X-114 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFB_X-114) From the Germans in the 70s
(https://preview.redd.it/m2ckn0lvlwc81.jpg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f824b5b36094fe78fbb1f1dfe6a3ad51c43185f3)
(https://preview.redd.it/eeat854vlwc81.jpg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d7ad603af0cf83dcb57805e601268112bcca13a)
(https://preview.redd.it/k7fn3jmulwc81.jpg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6b44efbc9ee6799d3c2cec1f2cc222ee1bf70376)

Beriev Be-103 'Snipe' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_Be-103)
(https://external-preview.redd.it/qFk5xZ1thghhhektrEmvf3V6vFGkYbHragHVy0HqG90.jpg?auto=webp&s=d87e5e80cd7ade4bf5aad4ae6891fa0408298ad3)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Be-103-MAKS2007.JPG/1024px-Be-103-MAKS2007.JPG)

Airfish 8 (https://www.wigetworks.com/airfish-8)
(https://preview.redd.it/o5b8b4iio2p81.jpg?width=734&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=90af938e1e32129262fe24c3808fdc3b573f3ae3)
(https://preview.redd.it/15cou4iio2p81.jpg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e08f06fb3ab54dc5e4efb68a49429b8afa2144d7)
(https://preview.redd.it/gwxxj4iio2p81.jpg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5a5f15f99949e51df31b1998f07c3e7b8540d09)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: CrossfirePilot on 11 April 2022, 15:00:15
Back about 30 years ago, my dad worked with a guy who did VW repair on the side, who was also building one of these in his garage.

Back about 30 years ago I was trying to buy a couple of these kits that were half finished.   Though even at that young age I recognized that people wanted full retail price for something that was half done, and about 1/4 correct.  I still think a BD-5 would be a fun little plane to own.  Thought it might also be its own sort of death trap.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 April 2022, 15:24:28
So what should the next thread title be?

Staying relevant, have a P-51 with a turboprop.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Middcore on 11 April 2022, 15:37:43
So what should the next thread title be?

Staying relevant, have a P-51 with a turboprop.

Cursed image.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Elmoth on 11 April 2022, 15:41:40
I vote for "aviation pictures VI. Oh my drone!"
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 April 2022, 15:43:46
So what should the next thread title be?

Staying relevant, have a P-51 with a turboprop.

T-6: Texan Thread!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/73/214218061_cf63b1d562_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 11 April 2022, 16:29:21
or the A-6 Intruder?
(https://www.flight-manuals-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A-6-photo.jpg)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: chanman on 11 April 2022, 16:49:09
or the A-6 Intruder?
(https://www.flight-manuals-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/A-6-photo.jpg)

Thread of the Intruder has a nice ring to it  :D
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: ANS Kamas P81 on 11 April 2022, 16:59:17
Thread of the Intruder has a nice ring to it  :D
I dig this thread title as well.

(https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/A-6-1200_480.jpg)

And a fun read, Confessions of an A-6 Intruder pilot (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27604/confessions-of-an-a-6-intruder-pilot)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Failure16 on 11 April 2022, 17:25:57
Thread of the Intruder has a nice ring to it  :D

And a great book, back in the day.
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 April 2022, 18:55:42
I hope whoever starts the next one thinks so too!  8)
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 11 April 2022, 19:18:42
Thanks, I do  ;D

New Thread: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/off-topic/aviation-pictures-sixth-time-thread-of-the-intruder/
Title: Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
Post by: Daryk on 11 April 2022, 19:42:40
Woo! In before thread lock!  :thumbsup: