Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?  (Read 144700 times)

truetanker

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1140 on: 04 September 2021, 12:49:33 »
That's current tech...

I'm talking future tech where current tech is replaced with newer rounds. DU is kinda heavier than tungsten but is much more radioactive. If the can make sliver shavings small enough to negate the radioaction then yeah use that. But a harder metal needs to be found.

Factory diamond penetrators? Something like this might work?

After all making ammo casings is easy, it's the bullet that needs to penetrate.

TT
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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1141 on: 04 September 2021, 13:00:46 »
Diamond doesn't have the mass.  If you watch that A-10 video I linked, there's a short segment on why DU is better than tungsten starting at 10:15.

kato

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1142 on: 04 September 2021, 13:27:22 »
Factory diamond penetrators? Something like this might work?
MIT was researching tungsten-chromium alloy powders for sintering of ultra-hard metals our of compacted nanostructures a few years back, if that has enough "future buzzwords".

chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1143 on: 04 September 2021, 13:34:12 »
The real benefit of DU rounds, aside from the self-sharpening aspect is that they're pyrophoric (ignites on impact), giving it better terminal results and making it API.

As far as I can tell, one of the big hazards of DU is general toxicity of heavy metals and its proclivity for burning leading to a lot of vapourized toxic heavy metals contaminating the vicinity.

At high enough speeds, projectiles stop behaving in intuitive Newtonian ways - see: EFPs and HEAT rounds.
The standard solution is probably going to be bigger rounds - there are physical and logistical limitations to how much pressure and how much muzzle velocity a gun can reasonably handle.

Diamond wouldn't have the required density either.

Physics comparison of steel, DU, and tungsten penetrators against a RHA target. (Does not include the pyrophoric self-sharpening properties)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVYKw6L8TMo

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1144 on: 04 September 2021, 13:38:09 »
Cool video, thanks!  :thumbsup:

CVB

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1145 on: 04 September 2021, 13:46:01 »
Many factions aren't exactly encouraged to produce DU, since it's primarily a by-product of enriched uranium.  Not going into details because of Rule 4.

Portions of the public are also nervous when they hear the word Uranium, linking it to nuclear weapons, radiation hazards etc. (Just ask Joe Average what a long half-life means!) Actually the bigger problem is toxiticy, as chanman mentioned.

The search for other metals reaches its limits when we run out of stable elements. The densest stable elements available in usefull quantities seem to be Osmium and Iridium both  at ~22.6g/cm3. Platinum, Rhenium, Plutonium, Gold come next, then we get Tungsten at ~19.3g/cm and Uranium at ~19.1g/cm are next.

So for density we have already arrived at ~90% of the possible maximum.

But we don't only need density but also hardness and tensile strength, which some of the listed materials simply don't provide, aside from price considerations.

So when we balance density, hardness,  tensile strength, behind-armor-effects, public opinion, political costs and price, we will probably choose between Tungsten and Uranium for some time to come.
/edited according to Daryk's post, below
« Last Edit: 04 September 2021, 14:43:25 by CVB »
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1146 on: 04 September 2021, 13:58:50 »
Tungsten's symbol is actually "W" (from Wolfram).  Uranium is just "U".

Bren

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1147 on: 06 September 2021, 05:17:49 »
Gives new meaning to 'buzzin the tower' ...


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truetanker

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1149 on: 12 September 2021, 00:39:33 »
Well watching a rando youtube thing I do, say this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor

Weird thing... is she still there?

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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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Failure16

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1150 on: 12 September 2021, 12:32:34 »
Still where? they were retired in the early 90s. I'm sure some exist, somewhere, but not operationally. Or even flightworthy.

But they make a great stand-in for a BattleTech Torrent. Too bad I can't find a cheap enough one in 1/300 or even 1/600...
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
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Weirdo

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1151 on: 12 September 2021, 12:59:57 »
I just use a die-cast B1. :)
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CVB

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1152 on: 12 September 2021, 15:38:38 »
Well watching a rando youtube thing I do, say this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Victor

Weird thing... is she still there?

TT

4 survivors, all in museums in the UK. 2 are stationary, 2 can taxi, 0 flightworthy.
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Failure16

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1153 on: 12 September 2021, 15:51:56 »
I just use a die-cast B1. :)

It's not the same, sigh. Both are sexy beasts, but different kinds of sexy.

Fun fact: I once got nuked at NTC by a BONE from my sister's squadron.





*That's not the actual airframe, so far as I know...
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1154 on: 12 September 2021, 16:34:15 »
That's cool!  8)

Colt Ward

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1155 on: 12 September 2021, 17:23:21 »
I just use a die-cast B1. :)

I thought the B-1 was a Rubvogel?
Colt Ward
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CVB

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1156 on: 12 September 2021, 17:25:33 »
Fun fact: I once got nuked at NTC by a BONE from my sister's squadron.
Isn't that rivalry among siblings taken too far? ;D
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1157 on: 12 September 2021, 17:48:10 »
It depends how old she was at the time... pretty much any age under 30, ANYTHING goes...  :D

Weirdo

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1158 on: 12 September 2021, 20:02:21 »
I thought the B-1 was a Rubvogel?

I use Vigilantes for those. Got a triple of them lined up for my Highlanders.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Failure16

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1159 on: 12 September 2021, 22:57:11 »
Isn't that rivalry among siblings taken too far? ;D

Its what I've always thought.

It depends how old she was at the time... pretty much any age under 30, ANYTHING goes...  :D

Right?
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1160 on: 13 September 2021, 00:54:38 »
Just saw this today and, y'now, at the rate we're going...

"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1161 on: 13 September 2021, 01:00:12 »
Just saw this today and, y'now, at the rate we're going...



Should be 8 TF33-sized warp nacelles :P

glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1162 on: 13 September 2021, 09:13:20 »

I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1163 on: 13 September 2021, 10:43:03 »
Next Gen B-52 upgrade
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

Colt Ward

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1164 on: 13 September 2021, 10:53:55 »
Which is funny, b/c at least the date on that is '08 . . . and it was probably earlier.  At least a 13 year old meme that is best answered with another meme-

Colt Ward
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Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1165 on: 19 September 2021, 09:25:22 »
Bitchin' paint!

I have spoken.


Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1166 on: 19 September 2021, 10:18:12 »
Indeed!  :thumbsup:

Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1167 on: 19 September 2021, 12:30:54 »
The Viper is a paint job diva.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1168 on: 20 September 2021, 22:32:10 »
Air Force Special Operations Command and private sector counterparts are currently developing a Removable Amphibious Float Modification (RAFM) for the MC-130J, allowing aircraft to take off and land in bodies of water and conduct runway independent operations.



The drag from that should kill your range/payload.
I have spoken.


Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?
« Reply #1169 on: 20 September 2021, 22:45:47 »
Air Force Special Operations Command and private sector counterparts are currently developing a Removable Amphibious Float Modification (RAFM) for the MC-130J, allowing aircraft to take off and land in bodies of water and conduct runway independent operations.



The drag from that should kill your range/payload.

Oh yeah.  It's also reinventing the wheel while forgetting why you stopped doing some things.
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