BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Strategic Combat => Topic started by: SamTheMan321 on 11 March 2019, 18:55:45
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Hello, I've just finished going through the chaos campaign rules and got my hands on a few turning points PDFs, but I have some questions on how I'm supposed to start the campaign off with player forces.
1. Am I supposed to directly battle my friend's player force in every track, or generate generic enemies? Alot of the turning points PDFs don't really specify. Seems like we'll batter each other into uselessness within a track or two if that's so?
2. How do I go about making player forces? We tried Lance sized starting forces, but quickly ran out of warchest points to repair or buy new mechs. Should I start with a much bigger force to countract this?
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Most of the Turning Points are based on a single player force and”NPC” forces as the opponent. The starterbooks are designed as two player forces, those also mix in some missions against NPC forces though. So you might each play one mission against an NPC force, then a touch point against each other.
I’d say the overall player force shookd be about three times your desired scenario force. So if you like lance level games, have a company and take a lance or two each time.
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Agree on the force size. I usually start my players with 12-16 units with the expectation of fielding 4-6.
Which Turning Points are you looking at specifically?
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So far Im looking at falcon incursion and the death to mercenaries turning point. I've not seen any tracks that mention player Vs player forces so far but I could be wrong. Are the starter books the only ones containing mission tracks with PvP elements?
Slightly unrelated, but if I spend warchest points to start a track, is my opponent still legible to receive warchest point rewards if he completes objectives? Seems like with how much a mission costs to start, the opposing player is at a massive point advantage if he actually completes an objective or wins.
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The TP Vega coming soon is written for two player controlled forces. Got another month till that release though.
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Chaos campaign is designed to face a player driven force against a GM/NPC force.
In my case, when playing the wolf and Blake starter book campaign, I wanted to play as the Opacus Venatori and my brother played as Black Widows.
So, I played first with my forces, and my brother run the generic opforce. When I finished my first track/mission, then my brother played his black Widows and I played as his generic OpForce.
Each build his warchest and the widows and blakist only faced when we both agree to pay for the corresponding track (as both forces must spend resources to move to the staging area).
The final battle was very interesting, as the book portrayed Stacy's Zeus headcapo8ng Beroth archangel with her AC, but in our battle she head capped him with her heavy ppc.
Fun times indeed.
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The TP Vega coming soon is written for two player controlled forces. Got another month till that release though.
Oooo, that's got my attention. It'll be interesting to see how two-player Chaos handles things like force balancing, and track and option costs.
Heck, I've always been rather fuzzy on how force balancing is supposed to work in regular Chaos Campaign tracks...
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I had to go back and check the specifics of the missions to make sure but you can play these as both player(s) vs GM or player(s) vs player(s). I haven't checked every one but this is what I got from the sample I looked at.
For OPERATIONAL TURNING POINTS / Starterbooks / Era Report Campaigns that have branching mission options:
* The standard missions (Scout, Assault, Defend, etc) are meant for one player vs an NPC force. If you are playing a player vs player setup, one player is following the mission objectives while the other player controls a generic OpFor.
* For TOUCHPOINT Scenarios, each player fields their own force. The objectives are designed to benefit both players. Note some like OTP: Capellan Crusades are only touchpoints.
For [Historical / Jihad / Etc] Turning Points:
* Most can be played either way - You'll notice in a lot of tracks that the objectives are either generic (Destroy 50% of enemy force, Enemy Commander, etc) or clearly marked [ATTACKER / DEFENDER ONLY]
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Heck, I've always been rather fuzzy on how force balancing is supposed to work in regular Chaos Campaign tracks...
My experience with it is the random rolled OPFOR results in the scenario usually being an absolute cakewalk or a complete ballbuster.
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If you want to go player vs player for a campaign, you might also consider Campaign Ops using the map-based campaigns in the back end of the book.
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Oooo, that's got my attention. It'll be interesting to see how two-player Chaos handles things like force balancing, and track and option costs.
Heck, I've always been rather fuzzy on how force balancing is supposed to work in regular Chaos Campaign tracks...
most tracks have a Defender should be X% of the strength of the attacking force stipulation in the setup
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most tracks have a Defender should be X% of the strength of the attacking force stipulation in the setup
The problem is, it never defines X%. X% of what? My number of units? Tonnage? BV? Do skills factor into it and if using any metric other than BV...how? What percentage of the OPFOR should be mechs, and what percentage should be other units? Other stuff I don't remember offhand?
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i just use total bv after adjustments. it's worked fine for me. they don't push a specific balancing metric (to the system's detriment to be sure), but sometimes you just have to push buttons until you get a result you like.
if i really wanted to press the player's force i would balance for bv first and then adjust the opfor skills.
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The problem is, it never defines X%. X% of what? My number of units? Tonnage? BV? Do skills factor into it and if using any metric other than BV...how? What percentage of the OPFOR should be mechs, and what percentage should be other units? Other stuff I don't remember offhand?
Having run a LOT of Chaos Campaign missions over the past few years, it is best to balance based on final Battle Value.
For the OpFor, they are usually spelled out along the line of:
The Force is equal to x% of the Players Deployed Force.
Example (TOTAL CHAOS pg 168 Cloud of Despair):
Attacker
The Attacker consists of elements from the Word of Blake’s Forty-seventh Shadow Division and is 100% of the Defender’s deployed force. The Fort-seventh has Veteran skills and uses any Word of Blake or Shadow Division RAT.
Defender (Player)
The Defender consists of elements from the First Sword of Light, supported by the player’s force. The Sworders are 75% of
the player’s deployed force, have Veteran skills, and uses any Combine RAT. The player uses up to 50% of their total force.
So, using the above, let us assume the player(s) have two lances in their forces. The first thing to look at is, the Player uses 50% of their total forces. They can choose to take 50% of the Total BV (with skills calculated in), or bring 1 of the two lances. Doesn't matter much, but either way the player needs to calculate out their BV for their part of the Force.
let us assume for simple math, the players deployed force is therefore 3000 BV.
The next step is the players are supporting a Force of Sword of Light that is 75% of their value. Therefore the Sworders have a BV of 3000 * 0.75 = or 2250. They are also Veteran Skill, so that needs to calculated into their BV. Be it a Single Assault mech, or a couple of mediums/lights, whatever. Again, we are just using example numbers here.
Finally we add these two BV together 2250 + 3000 to get a total of 5250. This is how much the Word of Blake forces has to work with, again accounting for the fact that the Word of Blake forces are all veteran Skill. As to what type of unit, both sides are free to bring whatever they wish.
Compare that with the following from Gorst Marcsh in TOTAL CHAOS page 204:
Attacker
The Attacker is a TerraSec guerilla force. They equal 75% of the Defender’s deployed force, use any Militia RAT, and have Regular skills. The Attacker’s force may only consist of ’Mechs, ground vehicles, and infantry. Deploy half of the force as Hidden Units (see p. 259, TW) anywhere on the battlefield. The remainder enters from the Attacker’s home edge at the beginning of the track.
Defender (Player)
The player may use up to 50% of their total force. For every combat unit deployed by the Defender, add two Iveco Burro trucks (see p. 24, TRVA). The Defender’s entire force begins the track on the edge opposite the Attacker’s home edge.
In this case the calculations are pretty much the same, but for the TerraSec forces, they cannot bring Aerospace, WiGe or VTOLs, and for the Player's the Trucks do not count for their forces BV.
And again, for a further example Friend fo the Devil, page 218-219 TOTAL CHAOS:
Attacker (Player)
The Attacker may use up to 100% of the player’s total force. Additionally, add elements from the Stone’s Lament which equal 100% of the player’s deployed force, have Elite skills, and use any Inner Sphere RAT.
[cut portion dealing with setup etc]
Defender
The Defender consists of elements of the Word of Blake and TerraSec forces remaining on North America. The force equals 150% of the Attacker’s deployed force. At least half of the Defender’s forces have Veteran skills, 25% have Elite skills, and the remainder has Regular skills. They use a mix of any Word of Blake, Free Worlds League, Lyran, Mercenary, and Militia RATs.
The Defender adds one Omega Superheavy BattleMech (see p. 151, JFR) to their force for every eight units fielded by the Attacker (round down to a minimum of one). They may also add one Revenant Drone BattleMech (see p. 153, JFR) for every six units fielded by the Attacker (round down to a minimum of one). These units count towards the Defender’s total deployed force.
So, in this case, the player has their force (say both lance from the original example), with a total BV of 8000. They are aided by Stone's Lament which also totals 8000 for a total BV of 16,000.
The OpFor in this case is 150% of that, so the WoB forces have 24,000 BV, but from that the must account for the Omega's BV and the Revenant (if they chose to bring) from that 24,000 BV.
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Works quite well for alpha strike and point values there as well.
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This thread got me hooked. I do own Total Chaos (and most of the Jihad Turning Points) but I just enjoyed reading it rather than playing. I know that there was a Chaos Campaign rules pdf somewhere.....is that still the up-to-date rules one?
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the rules in total chaos on pg 12-17 are an updated version of the original 2008 PDF that are universally applicable. Campaign Operations also has the rules (unsure if any changes were made between Total Chaos and CampOps). CampOps also has lists of sample objectives and options to enhance existing scenarios or create your own.
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This thread got me hooked. I do own Total Chaos (and most of the Jihad Turning Points) but I just enjoyed reading it rather than playing. I know that there was a Chaos Campaign rules pdf somewhere.....is that still the up-to-date rules one?
The Chaos Campaign rules are in such a flux that often the point values differ from each other.
From Campaign Operations:
Ever since the introduction of the Chaos Campaign rules in Dawn of the Jihad, there have been several different “versions” presented in various products. Because the Chaos Campaign rules are at their core a flexible track system, each version is tailored to a particular product in order to bring about a unique and replayable campaign for players. For example, the rules as presented in Starterbook: Sword and Dragon reflect the two particular Factions and the era the campaign is set in, utilizing special rules, equipment, and other variables that fit within the particular setting.
This is important to keep in mind because as players create their own track campaign, they will also tailor its offerings and options to their setting, players, and playing style. They’ll use whatever rules work best for them and their group, which will create a unique and (hopefully) replayable experience for their group. This may mean that various Track costs, Support Points, and Warchest Points may vary even within a campaign, reflecting player growth, play style, and other difficulties specific to the campaign arc.
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some of the stuff in total chaos like the scanning rules are book-specific (though I've used them in other campaigns). The tables on page 17 are virtually identical to those in CampOps 162-163 - though CampOps is much kinder on the wallet in healing pilots.
Someone I played with rightly pointed out that once your pilot took a hit and was a 4/5 pilot, you could replace him for fewer 40sp than fix him and was observed doing things like ejecting under the most questionable circumstances possible ;D
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Hey NeonKnight, if I were interested in chaos-style campaign but really really liked the old planetary movement system, would you have any advice? The planetary maps do such a great job of creating a sense of place.
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Hey NeonKnight, if I were interested in chaos-style campaign but really really liked the old planetary movement system, would you have any advice? The planetary maps do such a great job of creating a sense of place.
Funny you should ask, as at the moment, I'm actually trying to work out something of that exact nature for after I finish off the Total Chaos campaign. Looking to build something akin to merging the two from Campaign Operations.
I'll definitely let you know what I come up with.
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T'would be awesome, thanks. Back to the chaos campaign at hand.
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Hey NeonKnight, if I were interested in chaos-style campaign but really really liked the old planetary movement system, would you have any advice? The planetary maps do such a great job of creating a sense of place.
Are you talking about the maps that come in the TTS series?
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Are you talking about the maps that come in the TTS series?
Yep. The ones introduced in the back chapter of Battleforce 2.
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Or ones you make yourself ;)
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With Campaign Ops map rules, I sort of figured they were the assumed maps to use for planetary scale. Use the generic tracks (Attack, Defend, Scout, etc) to control that diamond and random but appropriate tactical maps- like roll on the mountains chart or whatever. Not sure if you would spend WP to defend or spend it to retreat. I know where were a couple of campaign threads here that talked about some of the options they used for maps- like the Marduk campaign. I also know there were some discussions about what benefits you could generate on a strategic map that was down on the Strategic Combat sub-forum. Some applicable topics-
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55809.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55809.0)
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=53598.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=53598.0)
First one was the writer of the map rules section addressing some questions.
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Chaos campaign is designed to face a player driven force against a GM/NPC force.
That's my problem with it; I want 2 player forces going at each others >:(
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that was down on the Strategic Combat sub-forum.
Actually that brings up a good point. I've moved the thread to Strategic Combat as a better forum fit.
Also, this sidebar is really interesting to me personally, but if the OP prefers, I'll ask to get back to the primary topic and we can discuss in another thread. SamTheMan321?
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I don't mind lol. Anyway I been using a fan made version of the chaos campaign rules by dementedrabbit that I found with uncle google's help. It's got a system for generating opposing forces and creating starting player forces. In hindsight after playing it through, the system only gives you enough for one Lance of starting mechs and that might have screwed our playthrough from the beginning lol.
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That's my problem with it; I want 2 player forces going at each others >:(
Turning Points (not operational) are designed for two players. OTP: Capellan Crusades is all Touchpoint Scenarios, which are pvp
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There's no CC stuff in liberation of Terra(s) or the succession war books, right? I'm looking at the indexes on sarna and not seeing anything anyway
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Did Total Chaos fix some of the problems of the Hot Spot Books where the Chaos campaign stuff got started? I remember doing one, where my "branch of decisions" got my stuck on a planet for years until liberation for showed. We had to "Edit" it so my merc unit wasn't stranded. I forget which mission does it.
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There's no CC stuff in liberation of Terra(s) or the succession war books, right? I'm looking at the indexes on sarna and not seeing anything anyway
Correct.
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There's no CC stuff in liberation of Terra(s) or the succession war books, right? I'm looking at the indexes on sarna and not seeing anything anyway
Books with Chaos Campaign Tracks (I think I got them all):
Starterbook: Sword and Dragon (see errata to fix mission branching errors)
Starterbook: Wolf and Blake
Era Report: 2750
Era Report: 3052
Era Report: 3062
Era Report: 3145
Shattered Fortress
The Wars of Reaving
Total Chaos (a compilation / editing of the Jihad Hot Spots series to walk you through the entire Jihad)
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With Campaign Ops map rules, I sort of figured they were the assumed maps to use for planetary scale. Use the generic tracks (Attack, Defend, Scout, etc) to control that diamond and random but appropriate tactical maps- like roll on the mountains chart or whatever. Not sure if you would spend WP to defend or spend it to retreat. I know where were a couple of campaign threads here that talked about some of the options they used for maps- like the Marduk campaign. I also know there were some discussions about what benefits you could generate on a strategic map that was down on the Strategic Combat sub-forum. Some applicable topics-
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55809.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55809.0)
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=53598.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=53598.0)
First one was the writer of the map rules section addressing some questions.
I'll try to re-read that section in CO. My impression was that it focused on maps that exist (regular hex maps) and not PA maps. My disappointment in CO was that it ignored PA. If it's true that it really was referring to PA, I think my opinion is that it creates a half-built engine that fails to directly address system transit or orbit. Sure I can adapt my own rules, but having a published standard everyone can point to as an authority is usually preferable.
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It gives you 3 different type maps for scale examples, and one is a large theater map. As far as transit or orbit, I would assume that is what ASW or ISaW would address.
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That's my problem with it; I want 2 player forces going at each others >:(
Then use the rules presented in Alpha Strike pg 116. they are made for a player vs player short campaign. After all, if two forces keep clashing, they will reach a point when one of those forces will be defeated.