Author Topic: Strategy Skill  (Read 4720 times)

bblaney

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Strategy Skill
« on: 12 April 2013, 19:03:00 »
So how do people use this in the RPG aspect of the game?
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Gray Jaguar

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #1 on: 12 April 2013, 19:04:57 »
I use it mostly for adding or subtracting benefits such as certain tactical abilities or justifying them in long term campaigns.  Plus, its a great way to enhance play and let those who act as faces and admins get a shot at affecting battle somehow by improving or changing initiatives.
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bblaney

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #2 on: 12 April 2013, 19:10:03 »
Reason I ask is a char concept I have the guy is a Strategic genius, so I took Nat Apt/ Strategy, because it fits him, I don't like wasting 500 XP though.

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Acolyte

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #3 on: 12 April 2013, 19:17:39 »
I have them roll it before battle and if they get a higher MOS than the OpFor then they get to swap out a map and/or choose where their going to enter. Outside of battle, I sometime get them to roll to see if they can figure out what the enemy's plans are or to give information that is not obvious (like possible locations for hidden bases).

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monbvol

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #4 on: 12 April 2013, 19:49:51 »
Strategy is one of those skills that is hard to give direct game mechanical benefit to but I see one good suggestion for it(changing maps).  Another good one I might add is add MoS as a percent bonus to BV, either by adding better NPC reinforcements/NPC gear to the players force(remember Strategy is for big fights potentially across multiple planets) or lowering enemy BV by MoS percent.

Tactics I'd say is more in line for choosing starting position on map or revealing hidden positions.

Kitsune413

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #5 on: 18 April 2013, 19:02:18 »
A strategic genius character is better served by having a hideously overpowered tactics skill.

If they're also leadership worth you can use that to increase your initiative bonus.

If they have a high MOS you can also give players information where their plan may be lacking. Anymore though Strategy isn't how you fight battles. Thats tactics.

Strategy is 'why' you fight battles.

Its about the end goal. Not the tactics you use to win. But the end result desired after you win.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #6 on: 18 April 2013, 19:30:40 »
Strategy is kind of a wasted skill.

Okay, I make the roll and the GM gives me a few suggestions on how to better fight the enemy on the strategic level. I reject the suggestions because the GM's RL Strategy Skill is lower than my own and my ideas are just plain better.

epic

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #7 on: 18 April 2013, 20:57:10 »
I also use strategy skill to have the players get ideas as to what my objectives are.  Thus, this still leaves the players in charge of responding as they see fit to the bad guy strategy, but at least now they know that the enemy bandits are actually here to loot this place, rather than that (and therefore, can concentrate their forces accordingly). 

Alternatively, in campaign play, a good strategy score/roll will enable the players to better outnumber/out quality their opponent. 

Basically: using margin of success rules, opposed rolls... every point by which one side beats the other allows them (or you) to bring 5% extra bv to the big battle than the other guy.  Or... allows one reserve lance, allows extra arty support off-board, or one passing air strike to begin with (then the asf leaves).  Alternatively, 1 unit of the enemy (other than the commander) takes damage before the fight, as if a medium unit of yours got to hit with all of its weapons.  A good one is having the enemy fight with only 1/2 or 1/3 ammo loads, due to decoys being used - or even you get full repair attempt, the enemy doesn't, between linked scenarios. 

I use Strategy skill a LOT.   It doesn't have to be about the fact that the player and/or GM is better at strategy in real life.  Instead, it can be about extra abilities/forces/rules brought to the game.

A player of mine had another good one that I may try one day.  For every strategy roll made in excess of the opponent, the player can use one optional rule from Tacops of choice.  I've been meaning to try that...
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Acolyte

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #8 on: 18 April 2013, 21:52:41 »
Strategy is kind of a wasted skill.

Okay, I make the roll and the GM gives me a few suggestions on how to better fight the enemy on the strategic level. I reject the suggestions because the GM's RL Strategy Skill is lower than my own and my ideas are just plain better.

No, not the way I've played it. A successful roll and the GM gives you more information about the OpFor, their goals, even the condition of their 'Mechs sometimes. You still get to come up with the battle plan, I make no suggestions as to that. I will consider questions that you ask, if you need more info, depending on the MOS of your roll.

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monbvol

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #9 on: 19 April 2013, 00:55:50 »
I also use strategy skill to have the players get ideas as to what my objectives are.  Thus, this still leaves the players in charge of responding as they see fit to the bad guy strategy, but at least now they know that the enemy bandits are actually here to loot this place, rather than that (and therefore, can concentrate their forces accordingly). 

Alternatively, in campaign play, a good strategy score/roll will enable the players to better outnumber/out quality their opponent. 

Basically: using margin of success rules, opposed rolls... every point by which one side beats the other allows them (or you) to bring 5% extra bv to the big battle than the other guy.  Or... allows one reserve lance, allows extra arty support off-board, or one passing air strike to begin with (then the asf leaves).  Alternatively, 1 unit of the enemy (other than the commander) takes damage before the fight, as if a medium unit of yours got to hit with all of its weapons.  A good one is having the enemy fight with only 1/2 or 1/3 ammo loads, due to decoys being used - or even you get full repair attempt, the enemy doesn't, between linked scenarios. 

I use Strategy skill a LOT.   It doesn't have to be about the fact that the player and/or GM is better at strategy in real life.  Instead, it can be about extra abilities/forces/rules brought to the game.

A player of mine had another good one that I may try one day.  For every strategy roll made in excess of the opponent, the player can use one optional rule from Tacops of choice.  I've been meaning to try that...
No, not the way I've played it. A successful roll and the GM gives you more information about the OpFor, their goals, even the condition of their 'Mechs sometimes. You still get to come up with the battle plan, I make no suggestions as to that. I will consider questions that you ask, if you need more info, depending on the MOS of your roll.

   - Shane

Ultimately that is probably the best way to handle Strategy between the two quoted posts.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #10 on: 19 April 2013, 03:00:42 »
  Applied properly, a player would not know whether his roll was better than the opponent's. He could be entirely wrong but confident that he has the upper hand.

 Part of the fog of war is the uncertainty of outcome...

Lissette Woo

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #11 on: 19 April 2013, 04:29:22 »
Some kind of factors that may modifies an Strategy Skill Roll in our games. In our games, they've been made during flight to target world or while on site, on short notice before the opposing force lands. A positive outcome of such an roll will bring futher XP for the units specialization (only if its an factor), the general XP outcome and or couse for the NPC/PC who made the plan. Sometimes, even other skills like Communication, Crypthography, Administration, Tactics, Leadership and Survival are an factor to have been noticed too.


Employer/Command hands you detailed maps of the target planet(or yourself can hand on
maps via ships lib or tourist infos,and so on - this includes special weather or illness, or
other specials you may encounter).

Employer/Command/Yourself hands you enough supplies (ammo,spare parts, water, food,
medical supplies). If the unit mainly uses vehiclular energy weapons, thats an great plus
on the supply table. Same as ballistic and missle heavy forces wihtout huge supply crates
have an also huge negative mod on there sides.

You know what kind of enemy is on site or nearby for scramble. Enemy elite units or
such ones with an bad reputation may modifies your own troops moral as same as while
you standing field while outnumbered. Same ways plays the other direction, if you have
superior numbers and or average force experience.

The field experience level of your senior strategist (green -1, regular +0, veteran +1,
elite +2 - if he has not the strategy skill, an -4 applys too).

With enough time to the target, you can work out alternative plans. For each alternative
 plans in backhand apply an further +1. If the officer have the patient trait, best to use it
with or without extra time here too, like on the original strategy skill roll.

Whats the moral and stress situation within the unit ? if they had enough free time to
the next mission apply +0 or +1 modifier, if not, and negative one depending on how
much weeks of stress you had more than free time.

Whats the moral situation on target ? Will you came as defender, liberator or occupier
(includes on with site of the border the target is, or how your standing to the employer
and the targets side is). Defending an planet wihtin friendly borders may boost moral
within the unit and on site (unit may fight harder and/or will receive help by locals). GMs
apply modifiers here situation depending.
« Last Edit: 19 April 2013, 04:48:10 by Lissette Woo »
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Acolyte

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #12 on: 19 April 2013, 04:49:41 »
  Applied properly, a player would not know whether his roll was better than the opponent's. He could be entirely wrong but confident that he has the upper hand.

 Part of the fog of war is the uncertainty of outcome...

Absolutely. I give no indication as to whether the information is totally correct and in most cases it's not. Added into this is the occasional "you have no idea about that". The trick is to give the players more information than they would have had without the skill while at the same time not giving everything away. I usually do allow them to find out where the errors were during the battle's post mortem.

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It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
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The stains become a warning
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #13 on: 19 April 2013, 18:00:57 »
How do you define Strategy?

Intel isn't strategy, it's intel and proper intel analysis, which in military units is its own department.

Strategy requires making certain assumptions about the opponent, that includes combat doctrine, logistics, capabilities, morale, terrain and meteorological conditions.

An example of strategic planning would be Operation Market Garden:
September, 1944.
The Allied forces, under protective cover of air superiority, advanced from the beaches and nearly pushed the German forces out of France. Many of the Axis units were surrounded and destroyed in the Failaise Pocket and most were in retreat.

  From the Allied standpoint, the Germans were beaten and they would be facing "old men and boys" and would "end the war before Christmas".
  From the German point of view, they wondered why the Allies didn't push when the German forces were retreating in disarray. The Germans also expected Eisenhower to appoint General Patton to plan the assault, not Montgomery.

  Operation Market Garden suffered from severe strategic decisions, such as crucial logistical lines. The British captured the port of Antwerp but the Germans controlled the estuary leading to the port, leaving hundreds of supply ships waiting until November to drop their cargo. The supplies that would have gone to driving the German Army from the estuary was diverted to Operation Market Garden, which would have benefited from a nearby source of supplies. The failure to open the ports in Antwerp have been called "One of the greatest tactical mistakes of the war." Other important ports on the English Channel coast, such as Dunkirk, remained in German hands until May 1945.

  Field Marshal Montgomery:  "in years to come it will be a great thing for a man to be able to say: 'I fought at Arnhem'.  Market Garden was '90% successful.'"
  "It was a bad mistake on my part – I underestimated the difficulties of opening up the approaches to Antwerp ... I reckoned the Canadian Army could do it while we were going for the Ruhr. I was wrong ............. In my — prejudiced — view, if the operation had been properly backed from its inception, and given the aircraft, ground forces, and administrative resources necessary for the job, it would have succeeded in spite of my mistakes, or the adverse weather, or the presence of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps in the Arnhem area. I remain Market Garden's unrepentant advocate."


Airdrop


Arnhem Bridge

Acolyte

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #14 on: 19 April 2013, 20:32:31 »
Well, the way I look at it is that a good strategist will look at the intel provided and figure out the most likely strategy the OpFor is going to try. Take the example of intel that a force is located at X and is going in Y direction and consists of Z forces. Intel. A successful Strategy roll would tell you, based on force composition and other factors, whether the OpFor is going to turn and strike the factory, go straight and hit the mines (objectively equal target, but maybe the factory produces something that this particular force needs) or go through the canyons to try and strike your basecamp. It might also tell you if this is a raid or a precursor to a full assault or even if this might be an insurgent force that's here for the long haul but will be trying to avoid your force.

The Strategy Skill, in other words, is for getting into the other commander's head.

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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #15 on: 20 April 2013, 01:56:27 »
  I would consider the Clans on Tukayyid that ran short on supplies as failed Strategy rolls where the enemy was not involved at all -The Clans that failed didn't adequately surmise the requirements of the operation.
  Those Clan commanders willfully ignored Khan Ulric's suggestions and later blamed him for not ordering them to stop being idiots.

  How would a GM punish a failed Strategy roll? False information? Erroneous assumptions?

Wolflord

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #16 on: 20 April 2013, 05:09:22 »
I allow map swaps and/or initiative bonuses depending on the mos.

I also use it as a surrogate for logistics.

Acolyte

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #17 on: 20 April 2013, 07:38:39 »
  I would consider the Clans on Tukayyid that ran short on supplies as failed Strategy rolls where the enemy was not involved at all -The Clans that failed didn't adequately surmise the requirements of the operation.
  Those Clan commanders willfully ignored Khan Ulric's suggestions and later blamed him for not ordering them to stop being idiots.

  How would a GM punish a failed Strategy roll? False information? Erroneous assumptions?

That's an example of getting into the OpFor's head that didn't work. They know the kind of battle that the IS is better at and should have been able to determine the needs of supply from extrapolating that. You're quite right, though, it's a definite failed roll. Except the Wolves who did extrapalate out the supply problem and thereby reached most of their goals. Mind you, they had insider info from Phelan.

For a failed roll, I give random info. Whatever pops into my head. The players know that it could be right or not. On a small MOF (say 1 or 2) I simply tell them they don't know.

   - Shane
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion
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Minerva

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #18 on: 20 April 2013, 12:27:27 »
My own games (using house system that has nothing to do with BattleTech or ATOW) use following:
Either you get ideas on what enemy is doing (and thus get a chance to start turning situation to your advantage) or you get advantage to overall rolls (typically modifier thanks to having a good plan  beforehand. In essense the staregy removes certain kinks out of rolls (and myt games are all about having limited intel and kinks in system).

Kitsune413

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #19 on: 20 April 2013, 18:46:28 »
I allow map swaps and/or initiative bonuses depending on the mos.

I also use it as a surrogate for logistics.

Logistics should be administration. :) So the PC's would either need a character with the administration skill or another NPC thats very good at logistics.

Though, I suppose, knowing how much logistics you need would fall under strategy. Its still not the Strategy's purview to deliver them.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #20 on: 20 April 2013, 18:48:00 »
That's an example of getting into the OpFor's head that didn't work. They know the kind of battle that the IS is better at and should have been able to determine the needs of supply from extrapolating that. You're quite right, though, it's a definite failed roll. Except the Wolves who did extrapalate out the supply problem and thereby reached most of their goals. Mind you, they had insider info from Phelan.

For a failed roll, I give random info. Whatever pops into my head. The players know that it could be right or not. On a small MOF (say 1 or 2) I simply tell them they don't know.

   - Shane

Like the previous post, I'd submit that perhaps the leaders had some skill at strategy but a terrible administration skill... and didn't think to delegate. :)
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #21 on: 20 April 2013, 19:03:15 »
There's alot of good ideas in the thread.

One I'd like to add is that when the character is in a position to be using the strategy skill, the player is no longer in a position to be specifying each and every little facet of his or her big decisions.  How often a supply run can go from your depot to your front lines is dependant on things like how many trucks are detailed to the task, how extensive is road network the depot is located upon, manning & logistics of the depot, etc etc.  No matter how many details you allow the player to specify, each detail specified raises at least 2 or 3 more quetsions.

It's far more elegant to allow the player to address whatever details he likes personally, then allow all the other onerous details that end up becoming important later to fall under a Strategy Skill roll.

(People want to roleplay the action, few want to roleplay the hours spent poring over maps and reports in planning a campaign)

monbvol

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #22 on: 20 April 2013, 22:49:29 »
Strategy does seem to be more of a catch all skill.  As has been stated while it doesn't cover the nitty gritty of how many supply runs happen the user would be well advised to read the reports of their Logistics Officer and see how that will impact their plans.  Likewise reading the Intelligence reports would be vital.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #23 on: 20 April 2013, 23:00:09 »
Strategy does seem to be more of a catch all skill.  As has been stated while it doesn't cover the nitty gritty of how many supply runs happen the user would be well advised to read the reports of their Logistics Officer and see how that will impact their plans.  Likewise reading the Intelligence reports would be vital.

Actually I was meaning to say the Strategy skill would be a good way to resolve some issue that suddenly becomes relevant, such as how often a particular stretch of the lines are resupplied.  Assuming a PC was in charge of that theatre of the planetary campaign and hadn't already specified such a schedule with the GM.
« Last Edit: 20 April 2013, 23:05:29 by Tai Dai Cultist »

monbvol

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #24 on: 20 April 2013, 23:46:06 »
That would be a valid exception.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #25 on: 20 April 2013, 23:51:22 »
  A lot dependesd on the GM's interpretation -I am currently playing OpFor in an exercise recreating the Battle of Luthien. In one portion I ordered a combat drop in two areas and because I didn't specify that the dropships traverse between targets in atmosphere or in space the dropships were caught in atmosphere and I lost two trinaries of Clan Omnis to IS Aero in a single turn. My GM expect every commander to be a micro-manager, including orders to the speeds of units in orbit to determine fuel consumption.

  The Clans' greatest weakness is their shortsighted doctrine on the strategic level as they tend to plan battles on short, single-action terms, hoping for the big, decisive battle. Due to Clan combat doctrine, Clan units have inadequately trained scout elements necessary in locating enemy formations.
  Even Clan Ghost Bear has to figure in never having enough Elementals to take and hold urban strongpoints.
  Another problem I have encountered as clan OpFor has been Comm satellite ECM -Something encountered during Tukayyid where Clan Wolf units had to resort to runners to coordinate between units. On a tactical scale, it means Clan forces automatically lose initiative which hamsrtrings ground forces and spells doom for aero units, where initiatve means life ot death. Currently there is no viable countermeasure (The GM forbids me from destroying satellite assets)  for continent-wide ECM save for a random chance every few hours.

idea weenie

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #26 on: 21 April 2013, 07:17:56 »
The one rule from TacOps per point passing the enemy would be nice, but that would give the player a clue how good their opposition is.  What you could do is let the player define a target number, then they roll their Strategy + 2d6.  If they beat the target number, they get the excess in special rules.

The enemy commander gets to roll vs the same target number though.  You'd have to limit the target number to something the player could reasonably hit on 2d6 though.  This keeps the player from doing some Target number of 50 to make sure the other guy never gets to use their Strategy skill.

You could also have it where the enemy commander or the player can 'burn' a couple points and have pre-gen fights.  I.e. the higher strategy roll figures that the enemy will be going through a certain valley.  The commander then decides to set up a minefield or ambush as they choose.  Or if the commander figures out where the enemy Logistics base is, they could send their forces on a quick raid.

So while your troops are out attacking their fortifications, you get a call saying your supply dump is under attack by the enemy's mobile force.

Lissette Woo

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #27 on: 21 April 2013, 07:44:27 »
Mohammed, if still actual, request support from the Technicians/Scientist Caste and place an computer virus/programm on the sat network or only shut down temp important parts or single sats. Computer skills are common there in a higher level but not used tactical or strategic.  :D

To come back to the original topic, if you take a look to other games, round or realtime strategy games, in the most chases you have some kind of background infos to skills/traits/perks and so on not directly named so far. Like the hero , who gets with each victory a few volunteers, or the liberator who gets better or more local support while reconquer an old or not long ago lost house/clan holding.

An other way is the build up of an grand strategy/tactic via force specialization, which brings certain advantages on the tactical and strategic level. Our current mercenary unit builds up an habit of energy only weapons (Medium Lasers and PPC) and fighting in cold climate. Sure that will fire back at some missions, but is part of the grand strategy of independent operations and being in first place an home defence force while not on a mission. Only ammo feeding units are currently the 2 special ops infantry squads, one is an exiled SPA squad with lyran training which also can hijack ground vehicles, vtols, conventional fighters/support aircrafts and even battle or argomechs (at least one). Instead of swarming an vehicle in combat at the middle of the battlefield, the squad sneaks in an position/camp or base and steals one. Okay thats risky too but brings also other advantages like getting enemy intel, maybe some officers or persons of value, supplies, placing false orders or cutting/turning off comms, and so on.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Strategy Skill
« Reply #28 on: 21 April 2013, 21:08:24 »
Mohammed, if still actual, request support from the Technicians/Scientist Caste and place an computer virus/programm on the sat network or only shut down temp important parts or single sats. Computer skills are common there in a higher level but not used tactical or strategic.  :D
  The GM allows me one roll every 8-hour Strategic Turn, which I have yet to succeed in the past 12 turns...
  The antenna array that controls the Satellite network in in another Clan's territory so I have no authority to attack or capture it.
  The Battle of Luthien was as much a competition between Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Nova Cat as it was Clans vs. the DCMS -There was very little in coordination between Clan forces and the current excercise reflects not only the lack of coordination between the Clans but the intentional refusal of Clan forces to support each other to the point of hinderance -Something never accounted for in Strategic planning.
  I so goaded the Clan Smoke Jaguar commander to race to be the first to land forces on planet that DCMS aero massed its squadrons and slaughtered nearly half of the Smoke Jaguar dropships on approach -Cost me two Trinaries as well and proved that no matter how many defending aero may be in the air, nothing could prevent a determined defender from inflicting costly casualties on an attacker. The DCMS commander spent much of his ASF in trying to destroy the attacking DSs -A stratagy he would eventually regret as the Clan forces now have Air Supremacy.