BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: grimlock1 on 15 October 2018, 13:41:53
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First off, Hi, I'm Grimlock, and I'm a recovering munchkin. It's been almost 18 months since I designed an uber-optimized, tricked out, max armored, running alpha, TC+pulse+Interface cockpit murder machine.
We've all done it, but then again, the devs have done it once or twice too.
Machines like the Hellstar, Turkina E, and Delphyne. Units that require almost no skill or finess. Machines that you feel guilty about using because they are just that effective. And yet these monsters are cannon!
I've named a couple but what are some of the others?
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Hellstar is kind of the gold standard. I'd add the Turkina A. The Viper / Black Python. Mad Cat A. Pillager 4Z
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I would add the Warhawk C. It carries 2 ER PPCs and 2 LG Pulse lasers. DHS may not be sufficient for constant alpha strikes, but it will usually hit what it fires at.
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Turkina B, Black Python, Goshawk, and Pariah B off the top off my head.
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Night Gyr E . . . should be a fricking P, its not a ATM design- it has a token ATM to let it be a E.
Glass Spider and Rifleman IIC are also generally mentioned- Spider b/c it has 2 Large and 2 Meds while the RFL IIC 4 Large Pulse, though neither has a TC.
Dire Wolf A usually gets cited too b/c 3 LPL and a Gauss Rifle.
Supernova 4 is the RFL IIC on steroids . . . I ran the cheese, it was brutal against opposition. The Osteon C & D is the SRN4 on on Mr Hyde juice- 2 Large & 4 Meds w/TC and 5 IJJ on its FerroLam/Reinforced frame. The D is slightly less cheese, no JJ or TC but 4 Larges and 19 DHS- 4/4/4/3 if standing still.
Not sure the Timberwolf A qualifies- usually its about having a LPL. The TWolf A for me is always unlucky- it takes a TAC to the SSRM ammo early in the game.
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Depending on the era you're playing in, the Marauder II, Awesome, Wolverine-M and possibly the Banshee-S and Charger-SB (aka Challenger) are often mentioned.
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Depending on the era you're playing in, the Marauder II, Awesome, Wolverine-M and possibly the Banshee-S and Charger-SB (aka Challenger) are often mentioned.
I understand the others, but what makes the Charger SB particularly munchy?
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In the set of canon designs, the Sphinx 3 might be among the closest contenders I've ever actually taken into a game.
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In the set of canon designs, the Sphinx 3 might be among the closest contenders I've ever actually taken into a game.
how had i not seen this before.
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how had i not seen this before.
I'm not gonna lie: It's 75 tons of distilled hate.
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I understand the others, but what makes the Charger SB particularly munchy?
For intro games, it offers OK speed, maximum armor, good cooling capacity and thus solid sustained firepower with reasonable max range of 15 hexes. It can fire 3 LLs indefinitely (24 damage per turn), and fourth one every other turn without notable heat build-up. Up close, it can fire 3 LLs and ML constantly. It has considerable crit padding thanks to all the heat sinks. If you park it in water, it can fire all LLs constantly.
Whether it is truly munchy is questionable, IMO. The Awesome is very close with practically identical BV, with slightly longer range but slightly weaker damage output, but i don't recall that being called munchy usually.
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Nova Cat A
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... and Charger-SB (aka Challenger) are often mentioned.
... and I'm done taking any of this forum seriously.
Honestly, anyone who thinks the Charger SB is cheese is stuck in the Battledroids era.
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S T E E L R A V E N S T A N D S I N J U D G E M E N T O F Y O U R O P I N I O N
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... and I'm done taking any of this forum seriously.
Honestly, anyone who thinks the Charger SB is cheese is stuck in the Battledroids era.
He did say depending on era.
Pre-CASE, anything without ammo explosions has a pretty big leg up. A lot of “cheese” opinions are based on taking one thing that you think is OP, and doing nothing but that. A clan ER PPC is nice, four is cheese. A clan large pulse laser is nice, four is cheese. Same with gauss rifles.
The large laser is generally not held in as highly esteem, but four of them seems pushing it. But as does a standard 8Q Awesome.
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You know, I get why mechanically a charger SB might be seen as cheese for its capabilities alone.
But I also have to wonder if some of that hate is inspired by the fact that it's a charger being able to do all that.
Like that sentinel with a gauss rifle, or the clan urbanmech that's slightly faster. Some things are just a crime against the natural order.
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Hrm okay I guess I get what's slightly 'munchy' about the Charger SB now. It's more like a variant that eliminates all of the orignal's weaknesses, although it still keeps a bit of the original's character. Not much different than something like the Warhammer 6D though.
I mean in 3025 you kind of have a curve where m lasers, PPCs and armour increases on a mech towards top optimization. I once modded a Jaeger into an energy boat, so I suppose that's borderline munchy too. I've just always noticed that circa 3025 'optimized mechs' all start to look the same.
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although it still keeps a bit of the original's character.
Not really, IMO. Merely having energy-based armament doesn't really qualify for that, i think. The Charger Challenger has 3/5 movement, ie what the Atlas and Awesome have. The original Charger has 5/8 movement, and its introductory level combat variants have 4/6. Fast assault 'Mechs, unlike the Charger Challenger.
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But I also have to wonder if some of that hate is inspired by the fact that it's a charger being able to do all that.
If anyone's a shoe-in for the quad-LL upgrade in 3025, it's the Awesome, NOT the Charger.
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S T E E L R A V E N S T A N D S I N J U D G E M E N T O F Y O U R O P I N I O N
I'm sorry if my post came off as harsh but I never thought I would see a Charger talked about in the same context as a Hellstar.
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Supernova 4. It virtually forces turrettech play since it's so accurate that getting high TMMs because near-useless.
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the Uziel 8S plays up the effective height of jumping TMMs while suffering little penalty in return.
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Nova Cat F
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the Uziel 8S plays up the effective height of jumping TMMs while suffering little penalty in return.
Yeah, but you're still going to die if you make a mistake. And you're using IS pulse lasers.
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The 3025 "fear of ammo and low armor" munchkin list:
JVN-10F Javelin "Fire Javelin"
FS9-M Firestarter "Mirage"
JR7-F Jenner
WLF-1 Wolfhound
VL-5T Vulcan*
BJ-1BD Blackjack
PXH-1D/1K Phoenix Hawk
HBK-4P Hunchback
CPLT-K2 Catapult*
WHM-6D Warhammer
MAD-3D Marauder
AWS-8Q Awesome
CGR-SB Charger "Challenger"
BLR-1D BattleMaster*
* Ammo is usually dumped 1st round.
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If anyone's a shoe-in for the quad-LL upgrade in 3025, it's the Awesome, NOT the Charger.
I actually disagree here.
I think the Awesome is just fine as a PPC boat.
If anything I think the only change I might make to the 8Q would be to swap the RA PPC for a single LL.
Now you have something w/o Minimum range that can Torso Twist & Fire to the Rear if needed while still keeping the double PPC tap to the front.
2 More Heatsinks means it can Run & Alpha the big guns all day w/o heat. Actually I think this variant is a little broken really, lol.
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The 3025 "fear of ammo and low armor" munchkin list:
JVN-10F Javelin "Fire Javelin"
FS9-M Firestarter "Mirage"
JR7-F Jenner
WLF-1 Wolfhound
VL-5T Vulcan*
BJ-1BD Blackjack
PXH-1D/1K Phoenix Hawk
HBK-4P Hunchback
CPLT-K2 Catapult*
WHM-6D Warhammer
MAD-3D Marauder
AWS-8Q Awesome
CGR-SB Charger "Challenger"
BLR-1D BattleMaster*
* Ammo is usually dumped 1st round.
I like where this is going & would add a couple more that might qualify as well.
Locust-1E
Stinger-3G
Spider-5V
WolfHound-1
Hermes-II-2M
Griffin-1S
Wolverine-6M
Ostsol
GrassHopper-5N
Flashman-7K
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3025 style imp I hear is good.
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I like where this is going & would add a couple more that might qualify as well.
Locust-1E
Stinger-3G
Spider-5V
WolfHound-1
Hermes-II-2M
Griffin-1S
Wolverine-6M
Ostsol
GrassHopper-5N
Flashman-7K
They do. Same thing, dump the ammo.
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You can't technically dump ammo under introductory rules. (Of course, nothing forbids using standard rules for introductory games.)
I really don't see why you'd dump ammo from Wolverine 6M. SRM-6 is good.
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The Wolverine is a close one. It is a beast, though.
Mine is based on the era if you run it in MegaMek. I've seen it happen.
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You can't technically dump ammo under introductory rules. (Of course, nothing forbids using standard rules for introductory games.)
I really don't see why you'd dump ammo from Wolverine 6M. SRM-6 is good.
I'm pretty sure they're referring to the introductory technology level, rather than game play rules.
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I'm pretty sure they're referring to the introductory technology level, rather than game play rules.
Yeah, probably. But since intro designs and rules commonly go together... no weaseling out of weaknesses there :thumbsup:
Honestly, it is more fun to play intro games with standard rules. Stuff like indirect fire is interesting and fun option in low-tech games.
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The 3025 "fear of ammo and low armor" munchkin list:
Add the MAD-4A Marauder II (production start in 3012) as the epitome of this design philosophy.
In more modern terms, the Dire Wolf Widowmaker and Dire Wolf Hohiro are right up there for their multiple Clan pulses, big hole-punchers, and maxed armor.
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Nova Cat F
Ugh. you can say that again.
Literally 1/3 of the players in the Battletech Open at Gen Con one year were running a Nova Cat F.
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The 3025 "fear of ammo and low armor" munchkin list:
JVN-10F Javelin "Fire Javelin"
FS9-M Firestarter "Mirage"
JR7-F Jenner
WLF-1 Wolfhound
VL-5T Vulcan*
BJ-1BD Blackjack
PXH-1D/1K Phoenix Hawk
HBK-4P Hunchback
CPLT-K2 Catapult*
WHM-6D Warhammer
MAD-3D Marauder
AWS-8Q Awesome
CGR-SB Charger "Challenger"
BLR-1D BattleMaster*
* Ammo is usually dumped 1st round.
Ah yes. The standard 3025 Davion line up. Seriously 8 of the 14 are Davion or FedCom refits. There is a reason for the reputation 😉
As I have played more I have feared those quad LPL or ERPPC rigs less and less. Yes they are very good at what they do. Yes they require little skill to do it. But like all Battletech long ranged weapons their damage to weight ratios are poor. In the case of LPLs they don't scale well with better pilots because they already start on the downward slope of the bell curve.
Speed and terrain seems to be the key. Mechs like Novas can get in and run their day with clockwork tactics. Last time I did some play testing I used a Hellstar as a benchmark and it rapidly became a patsy reliance on head hits for victory against a variety of TRO3145 Mechs.
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... and I'm done taking any of this forum seriously.
Honestly, anyone who thinks the Charger SB is cheese is stuck in the Battledroids era.
Did the OP mention a certain era, or cut off point? Looking at it's 4 LLs and 28 heatsinks is pretty damn close to being what others consider to be cheese. Personally, if people are using BV2, there really isn't to much to be considered cheese.
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And no one's mentioned the Rifleman IIC yet. For shame!
4 x LPLs and it dissipates 38 heat. Sure its slow but Clan large pulse lasers have that nasty range to them and its not going to be missing.
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Septicemia BZ
-2xCLPL
-TC
-jumps 7
-Nova CEWS
-light TAG
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Whatever mech just finished murdering me in 4 turns or less.... xp
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Did the OP mention a certain era, or cut off point? Looking at it's 4 LLs and 28 heatsinks is pretty damn close to being what others consider to be cheese. Personally, if people are using BV2, there really isn't to much to be considered cheese.
No, I didn't mention era or tech cutoffs.
Whatever mech just finished murdering me in 4 turns or less.... xp
I was asking less about those mechs, and more about the "This thing is practically cheating. I feel too guilty to ever use it again..."
What about other units? BA, Protos, vehicles, aero?
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Since BA, Vehicle and Protos all have things in the rules that set them up to be weak for fluff reasons, its hard to say any of them are OP- especially since Hovers got the TW nerf.
ASF . . . well, under current rules there are a few monsters. Hydaspes seemed to be the first (who cares its secondline, its a murder brick) followed by the Eisensturm R3 and its Omni follow on. In fact the Eisensturm D is a great interceptor, the only tweak to performance would be to rework a R3 to that weapons load and re-skin in reflective armor when that becomes commonly available later.
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Bane 3?
Novacat B?
Thunderhawk?
Annihalator ANH-1E, and the various Gauss crazy variants?
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Nothing with an IS XL Engine should be on this list. And mechs with an IS XL engine and both side torsos filled with things that go boom when critted especially shouldn't be on the list.
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Nothing with an IS XL Engine should be on this list. And mechs with an IS XL engine and both side torsos filled with things that go boom when critted especially shouldn't be on the list.
Disagree. If a XL engine can enable options that aren't possible with a standard or Light engine (like being able to get a +4 or +5 movement mod), then it should be on the list. It's all about that min-maxing.
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Yeah, but part of that is survivability . . . Clan XLs and IS LFEs get excused b/c you can lose a torso and still be functional.
After looking it up, I can understand why the F would get the cheese call . . . but the A? Granted I love it b/c 4 of the best weapons and the sinks to fire them while being mobile . . . and the B? A missile boat?
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IS LFEs get excused b/c you can lose a torso and still be functional.
Does it get excused? I feel like common sentiment is that IS LFE's are waste, offering little weight savings (that probably could be obtained otherwise) for ultimately much more vulnerable engine.
Mind you, i don't think this, i like LFEs, and design-wise i find them more interesting than the super-powerful Clan XL engines.
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but the A? Granted I love it b/c 4 of the best weapons and the sinks to fire them while being mobile . . .
Don't forget the tarcomp
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Bane 3.
We're done here. I can throw a full ton of warheads into the air in a turn, and while the heat is going to be a little uncomfortable I'll happily cool down the following turn while my target staggers in its death throes. There's just nothing like telling someone across the table that you're firing EIGHT LRM-15s at them- even if they know what you're using, it still gets their attention.
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I want to throw Ebon Jaguar B into the mix but the heat curve on that thing makes 3025 look like the good old days when engineers knew how to install heat sinks.
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Bane 3.
We're done here. I can throw a full ton of warheads into the air in a turn, and while the heat is going to be a little uncomfortable I'll happily cool down the following turn while my target staggers in its death throes. There's just nothing like telling someone across the table that you're firing EIGHT LRM-15s at them- even if they know what you're using, it still gets their attention.
And they are eight Clan LRM's , which means I can do that at any range. Not to mention I can do that for sixteen turns straight.
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Disagree. If a XL engine can enable options that aren't possible with a standard or Light engine (like being able to get a +4 or +5 movement mod), then it should be on the list. It's all about that min-maxing.
See, to me, a munchkin design is not just min-maxed, it's designed to be run by someone who doesn't think about their next move beyond "I fire all my weapons." You don't have to maximize your TMM to avoid death, nothing short of a lucky head hit or TAC to the center torso is going to take you out of the fight, and you can just sit there mashing the alpha strike button until the match is over.
So something like the Thunderhawk is right off the list, because those torso-mounted Gauss Rifles with that XL engine make it far too vulnerable to being shot.
Likewise, the Cauldron Born B is off the list because that insane heat curve means that you have to play very, very smart if you don't want to leave yourself shutdown and vulnerable by the second round of fire.
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Don't forget the tarcomp
Yeah, but the common complaint is a TC & Pulse- not just that a TC is on something.
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Turkina Z.
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Bane 3.
We're done here. I can throw a full ton of warheads into the air in a turn, and while the heat is going to be a little uncomfortable I'll happily cool down the following turn while my target staggers in its death throes. There's just nothing like telling someone across the table that you're firing EIGHT LRM-15s at them- even if they know what you're using, it still gets their attention.
Oh I'll see your 8 LRM-15s for a single point and raise you 2 more with 5 Svartalfa 2s. And no heat issues here. ^-^
Also, the Flamberge 2, for when you need a heavy 'Mech jumping 7 to drop a bunch of pulse lasers and SRMs into the rear of the enemy.
Or the Flamberge 3, for when you need a heavy 'Mech jumping 7 to double tap an Ultra-20 into the rear of the enemy and then toss in some pulse lasers and SRMs.
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Timber Wolf D and Savage Wolf Prime are both near misses for this category, its just that half of the missile load is facing the wrong way.
What do we have in the lower weight classes?
WLF-1 was an animal back in its day, and although the WLF-2 was good, it wasn't "broken." The -2X on the other hand is a tough, nasty little beggar with big beatstick. Keeping the range open and the speed up, discourages people from wasting ballistic ammo on bad shots, and reflective armor lets you take a lot of PPC and erllas hits.
Then there is the Wolfhound Allard. Now that I'm thinking about it, the pure Clantech Allard isn't that much better than the -2X. Okay nevermind. It is.
The Griffin was kinda broken back before the Clans. Granted it's not a easy to use as later stuff, there's still some heat management to worry about, but just keep the range open and fire the PPC every other turn. Anything fast enough to catch you is in for a world of hurt. Anything big enough swat you isn't quick enough to keep up. Basically this. (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=9425.msg233375#msg233375)
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Timberwolf D? Must have faced Clan players worried about BV . . . that is where it shines, 2 headcappers is now cheese?
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Timberwolf D? Must have faced Clan players worried about BV . . . that is where it shines, 2 headcappers is now cheese?
The D would be cheese if it has quad streak 6 in the forward arc. Two 15 hole diggers backed up by 24 location roles, but alas, half those SRMs are rear mounts.
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So is the Warhammer 8K also borderline cheese? What about the Warhammer IIC 4? the Warhammer IIC 11 which has 2 Heavy Large, ERML & a SSRM6 in each side torso? The Nightstar 9FC with a ERPPC, 3 ML and 2 LB-10X, its a lot of clusters out further than the Clan SSRMs?
Just like use of cheese, this is getting out of hand as folks are pointing at things they do not like or got damaged by.
Typically cheese is Pulse (especially Clan) with a TC (Warhawk C or Black Python), or heat neutral (or nearly) with a load of only headcappers (Hellstar or Thunderhawk).
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Ah yes. The standard 3025 Davion line up. Seriously 8 of the 14 are Davion or FedCom refits. There is a reason for the reputation 😉
As I have played more I have feared those quad LPL or ERPPC rigs less and less. Yes they are very good at what they do. Yes they require little skill to do it. But like all Battletech long ranged weapons their damage to weight ratios are poor. In the case of LPLs they don't scale well with better pilots because they already start on the downward slope of the bell curve.
Speed and terrain seems to be the key. Mechs like Novas can get in and run their day with clockwork tactics. Last time I did some play testing I used a Hellstar as a benchmark and it rapidly became a patsy reliance on head hits for victory against a variety of TRO3145 Mechs.
To defend Davionista's. (Fedcomunista's?) anyway.
Some of this probably plays into the Federated Suns, (and later the Federated Commonwealth) Armored Cavalry. One of the few units/formations that realized the weakness of the Start League was low ammo and slow units.
You also have stupid units Like the RFL-4D with 2 PPC's and 2 LL. Or the OTL-D (I think it's the D) The Ostsol with 2 PPC's and 15 heat sinks. Sure they Zombie nice, but the quest to have Warhammers and Marauder replacements made Hanse Davion create dumb variants. (as though Hanse were real and all)
Fed Suns also field a ton of regular RFL's, Jagermechs and Ammo heavy designs. They do have some solid light and med energy based units.
Whammy-D and Mad-D are solid enough but the Whammy doesn't defend itself up close very well (Unlike the Whammy-R) and the Mad-D has no heavier armor and is vulnerable to side shots and kicks that more easily focus on a leg.
Most of the 3025-303 energy boats aren't too bad. The Hunchback-P seems a little over the top.
Ammo dumping problem solution? Don't allow it.
No commander would allow you to just jettison 2000 lbs of MG ammo or that extra SRM 6 ton off of a Battlemaster. The stuff is there for a reason. "But it's my game" Sure whatever, you can play the Battlemaster's PPC is really 2 of them because the Unseen model has two barrels on the gun (I thought this as a 14 year old in 1986) doesn't mean that it's reasonable.
It certainly helps survivability, but then that Mechwarrior has to worry "Oh man, what if I get swarmed by an infantry company" Campaign games might just want that 2nd ton of Ammo.
I'm not sure any munchkin machine's exist outside of Star League Royal and Clan era stuff. Perfectly heat neutral, flat or increasing damage curve, high speed monsters. That's munchkin. A Hunchback with 9 Med lasers? Well, shoot it with some LRMS and PPC's. Maybe some special variants Charger SB is a one off custom Variant isn't it? It's like calling Yen-lo-Wang munchy. It's now Atlas slow and isn't going to enjoy a rain of LRMS or PPC fire from units that are now fast enough to wear it down.
15 range max is nice, Until the Archer walks and ranges you at 11-14 and bops you with shots on 6-8 (maybe 9) and you shoot at best on an 8. Probably a 10 or 11. That's a winning echange for even a stock Archer. Ignore Archer-S and units with better heat curves.
TO defend Davionista's. Many of these are very
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Ammo dumping problem solution? Don't allow it.
No commander would allow you to just jettison 2000 lbs of MG ammo or that extra SRM 6 ton off of a Battlemaster. The stuff is there for a reason.
Lolwhat? The commander will chew you out a hell of a lot harder if you just lost a nearly irreplaceable (assuming 3025) Warhammer due to not dumping the MG ammo when the torso armor started getting breached.
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Biggest problem with MGs is that you had no real use for them until TW change the dynamic with infantry and also gave us rapid fire rules to justify that 1 Tone of MG ammo.
All the same; at this rate, the only mech that will not be on this list will be the freak'n Urbie.
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Lolwhat? The commander will chew you out a hell of a lot harder if you just lost a nearly irreplaceable (assuming 3025) Warhammer due to not dumping the MG ammo when the torso armor started getting breached.
I assume the prior comment was more directed to those who dump their ammo at the start of the fight before a shot is even fired.
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So what draws the line between a nice pizza Napolitana and a double extra cheese with cheese?
AC + Tarcomp variants might be considered cheesy too thanks to precision ammo.
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Actually I would think a commander would be mad if you just dumped ammo for seemingly no reason however there is nothing really stopping you from telling your tech just to not load the ammo you do not want in the first place. Then you never need to worry in the first place and you can save that ammo for a unit that really needs it.
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So what draws the line between a nice pizza Napolitana and a double extra cheese with cheese?
AC + Tarcomp variants might be considered cheesy too thanks to precision ammo.
I'd say that one really depends on the Autocannon, weight class/mounting unit, and target.
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So what draws the line between a nice pizza Napolitana and a double extra cheese with cheese?
AC + Tarcomp variants might be considered cheesy too thanks to precision ammo.
Not really. Standard autocannons are pretty weak weapons and the fact that Precision rounds only have half the normal number of shots per ton really means that it's hard to consider them cheesy. Especially with how heavy autocannons are combined with the added mass of the TC.
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I'm going to put the Preta Dominus in this category. It is the most perfectly designed MONSTROUS ANNOYANCE ever.
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I'll throw in the Stooping Hawk F.
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I assume the prior comment was more directed to those who dump their ammo at the start of the fight before a shot is even fired.
Bingo
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Okay, that makes more sense, though I think that primarily only happens in games where the GM won't let someone start with no MG ammo loaded- at that point, yes, I would dump the ammo first thing but that doesn't accurately represent what would be happening in-universe.
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Along the same lines, as a GM, I wouldn't let you not load ammo. If you want a mech without ammo, take one without ammo. Saying "I like the Battlemaster but it's a bit of a walking bomb, so I'm not going to load the MG ammo and only half the SRM 6 ammo" is a little silly, in my opinion. Gamewise, sure it's a smart thing. The game is as much about the Hit tables, mods and 2d6 as it is about the story, history, flavor etc, of the Universe.
If it were just that simple as making unit better, the Shadow Hawk K has 17 heat sinks and can at max generate 15 heat (barring engine hits) so why not say that "We play that all owners of Shad-K's realize this is pretty dumb and they load 2 Medium lasers on it because the PPC and LRM 5 aren't going to fire most of the time when the ML's do." You can do anything you like in the game, but it's going to start moving away from what we can jointly call Battletech.
As a GM, I'd cure ammo dumping by discouraging this sort of munchkinism. Indeed, dumping ammo is the definition of munchkinism. Ignoring the fanciful reality of the game world and engaging in behavior that would be counter productive or at least counter-intuititve if the game were "real."
"But my Quickddraw with a rear mounted SRM 4 is stupid."
"Sure it is. But you lost your Warhammer because you wanted to Alpha strike 3 turns in a row in the last game. This is what your Regimental commander could spare. Next time play smarter."
If you want to be sneaky, setup 20 stands of infantry hidden on the board and make the Battlemaster wish for that ammo back.
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I think it's more silly to require ammo reloading.
Player1: "I don't want to load my machine gun ammo."
GM: "You have to!"
Player2: "oops, we didn't buy any LRM ammo."
GM: "Ha, you can't use your LRMs!"
Player1: "We could sell my machine gun ammo and buy some LRM ammo?"
GM: "No, you just don't want to load machine gun ammo!"
Player1: "Yeah. Reality morphs its rules to only apply when it screws me over?"
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"Sure it is. But you lost your Warhammer because you wanted to Alpha strike 3 turns in a row in the last game.
Wait, did someone really do this?
If you want to be sneaky, setup 20 stands of infantry hidden on the board and make the Battlemaster wish for that ammo back.
... Zerg rush? Is that really any less cheap than dumping ammo?
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if i live in a universe where an exploding ton of machine gun ammo is one of the most potent weapons known to man, but only when it explodes inside my giant walking robot powered by an impossible fusion engine, i reserve the right to poop it on the ground at the time of my choosing
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There should be a rule that allows dumping MG ammo as timed explosive or mine.
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hitting a mech dumping ammo from behind causes a full-blown ammo explosion. it should probably act as a hazard just kind of lying there, yeah
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hitting a mech dumping ammo from behind causes a full-blown ammo explosion. it should probably act as a hazard just kind of lying there, yeah
Like a improvised mine?
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yeah your big plodding mech fails a psr or something and accidentally kicks a shell causing a chain reaction. they couldn't be better than actual mines but still mess up a leg on an unlucky roll
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Ah yes. The standard 3025 Davion line up. Seriously 8 of the 14 are Davion or FedCom refits. There is a reason for the reputation 😉
YEAH ! I get to roll on the Davion RAT for my lance !
Look at all those cool mechs ,especially those heavies ! ( Drools )
Rolls and gets a Wasp WSP-1D ,Shadowhawk SHD-2D , Jagermech JM6-S,
and Rifleman RFL-3N .
Kurita OP rolls Jenner JR7-F , Wolverine WVR-6K , Warhammer WHM-6K ,
Archer ARC-2K .
?????
As for the OPs point - I would argue that in the earlier eras the Wolverine WVR-6M
belongs on the munchkin list . If you're balancing by tonnage just about every
merc unit suddenly seems to have one .
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I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.
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I think it's more silly to require ammo reloading.
Player1: "I don't want to load my machine gun ammo."
GM: "You have to!"
Player2: "oops, we didn't buy any LRM ammo."
GM: "Ha, you can't use your LRMs!"
Player1: "We could sell my machine gun ammo and buy some LRM ammo?"
GM: "No, you just don't want to load machine gun ammo!"
Player1: "Yeah. Reality morphs its rules to only apply when it screws me over?"
It's not "You have to"
GM: Your commander looks at you strangely, "you want to be defenseless against infantry?"
"I know we are only going to only face mechs, that's all the models you brought"
"So you've been reading the scenarios? Let me go get the other case out of the trunk of my car..."
5 Stands of Heavy SRM Hover infantry later....
"Make is stop"
Wait, did someone really do this?
... Zerg rush? Is that really any less cheap than dumping ammo?
One is just muchkining or metagaming in a way a mechwarrior wouldn't do. The other is putting the player in a position to exploit their exploitation. You've never said to players or opponents (whether openly or to yourself) "OK, if you are gonna be foolish, it's gonna bite you in the butt"
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I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.
Isn't there a Kraken with 8 Ultra AC 2's? That seems sort of fishing for TAC crits and headshots. Granted, it's slow as molasses but that's just terrible.
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I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.
Uh... Urbanmechs are pretty small, one might even say munchkin-sized. And it has a big cannon.
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Indeed! Urbanmech
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Hellstar is kind of the gold standard. I'd add the Turkina A. The Viper / Black Python. Mad Cat A. Pillager 4Z
I disagree on the Black Python. One of my favorite mechs, but no where is it anywhere close to optimized.
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Viper is a highly mobile pulse boat with a TC. While it could easily be optimized a bit more (Dump the mess of smaller PL for another large) it's still a little munchy. You'll note that the publishers subsequently pretty much stopped building mechs like that.
00000
Urbanmech AIV. Dead cheap arrow launcher. And you can afford to dump the stats further for more savings, usually.
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I think when you carry Pulse + TC, you're gonna be tagged with "munch" no matter what... unless you have, like, JagerMech level armour values
or that's IS Pulse + TC...
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Isn't there a Kraken with 8 Ultra AC 2's? That seems sort of fishing for TAC crits and headshots. Granted, it's slow as molasses but that's just terrible.
Why do you want to make Hellbie cry?
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Hyper-specialized isn't the same thing as munchkin anyway.
A Hunchback IIC ain't a munchkin's mech.
A Hellstar is a munchkin's meck. There's a huge difference, and it ain't the tonnage (but the tonnage does factor in a bit...)
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Why do you want to make Hellbie cry?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/a9xhxAxaqOfQs/giphy.gif)
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Viper is a highly mobile pulse boat with a TC. While it could easily be optimized a bit more (Dump the mess of smaller PL for another large) it's still a little munchy. You'll note that the publishers subsequently pretty much stopped building mechs like that.
Not saying that it's not a good mech, (and looks cool to boot...) but it doesn't have the heat sinks to use the firepower (and mobility) it has and a lot of the firepower is subpar (the spl's and the mg). In BV balanced games, it's a bit overpriced I believe.
All the drawbacks take it out of the level of 'munch' unless your definition of munch is so broad that anything with a LPL or MPL on it is munch regardless of other facts.
Compare to a Hellstar, or a Dire Wolf/Warhawk A and you have a vastly less powerful mech.
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the viper was reviled by an entire generation of players and pushed them into table-flipping rage. it's classic munch.
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All the same; at this rate, the only mech that will not be on this list will be the freak'n Urbie.
Uh... Urbanmechs are pretty small, one might even say munchkin-sized. And it has a big cannon.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OrneryTameKingbird-size_restricted.gif)
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It's not "You have to"
GM: Your commander looks at you strangely, "you want to be defenseless against infantry?"
"I know we are only going to only face mechs, that's all the models you brought"
"So you've been reading the scenarios? Let me go get the other case out of the trunk of my car..."
5 Stands of Heavy SRM Hover infantry later....
"Make is stop"
One is just muchkining or metagaming in a way a mechwarrior wouldn't do. The other is putting the player in a position to exploit their exploitation. You've never said to players or opponents (whether openly or to yourself) "OK, if you are gonna be foolish, it's gonna bite you in the butt"
There's a substantial difference between exploiting someone's tactical mistakes and being a poor sport. Would you "punish" someone by dropping five platoons of hover infantry on them if they'd simply chosen a mech that didn't have machine guns rather than dumping the MG ammo? And more to the point, in either scenario would you expect that the player would ever show up to another of your games?
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By the current BPV system, the viper is arguably more expensive than it's worth. By the 90's BPV systems, it was costed far less than it was worth, along with the goshawk. They were flat out win-buttons. Far more so than the hellstar is today, even. We're dealing with backlash from that.
Not that it isn't stupidly powerful - I can think of a few maps where it can probably rip a hellstar to shreds without trying hard. Magic of the bell curve - +3 defender mod with a -3 attacker mod, combined with not bad armour and decent range mean a lot. The fact that it's so easy to further optimize should by no means disqualify it from munch-hood, unless you're using a far different definition of the term than I.
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Not saying that it's not a good mech, (and looks cool to boot...) but it doesn't have the heat sinks to use the firepower (and mobility) it has and a lot of the firepower is subpar (the spl's and the mg). In BV balanced games, it's a bit overpriced I believe.
All the drawbacks take it out of the level of 'munch' unless your definition of munch is so broad that anything with a LPL or MPL on it is munch regardless of other facts.
Compare to a Hellstar, or a Dire Wolf/Warhawk A and you have a vastly less powerful mech.
. . . Clan pulse w/TC . . . 5/8/5 w/ 13 DHS. So you can jump and fire both larges out to 20 with no heat and get that -3. Get closer into range and you can run, fire both larges and a med, and be heat neutral with that -3 TH. Get within 12 hexes, jump, fire a large & 3 meds, and you just overheat by 1.
The Black Python is a PULSE bracket firing machine.
And you know it from playing on the competitive servers- it is in the Clan 'cheese' trifecta of old, Warhawk C/Black Python/Rifleman IIC. Those mechs were extremely limited availability if allowed at all.
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There's a substantial difference between exploiting someone's tactical mistakes and being a poor sport. Would you "punish" someone by dropping five platoons of hover infantry on them if they'd simply chosen a mech that didn't have machine guns rather than dumping the MG ammo? And more to the point, in either scenario would you expect that the player would ever show up to another of your games?
I'll admit that I'm always fascinated by that kind of logic when it pops up in gaming, not just here but in gaming in-general. Yes, there's cheese-gaming tactics that will break a game, thoroughly punish an opponent, humiliate them, etc.- sure. But actually USING those tactics runs the risk of not having another game with that opponent, or even that gaming group, again. Weigh your options- is it better to DOMINATE a game today, or play like a decent person and have another game or two later?
To writ, there used to be a discussion about showing up to a game with your opponent's BV worth of Savannah Masters- dozens of them. Great. Sounds like a high old time. Hope you have your Playstation subscription paid up, because that's what you'll be doing next weekend when the group gets together again. Fool me once... you know the drill. There's nothing fun about a game like that, and less fun about spending that rare weekend time around someone who plays that way.
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I'll admit that I'm always fascinated by that kind of logic when it pops up in gaming, not just here but in gaming in-general. Yes, there's cheese-gaming tactics that will break a game, thoroughly punish an opponent, humiliate them, etc.- sure. But actually USING those tactics runs the risk of not having another game with that opponent, or even that gaming group, again. Weigh your options- is it better to DOMINATE a game today, or play like a decent person and have another game or two later?
To writ, there used to be a discussion about showing up to a game with your opponent's BV worth of Savannah Masters- dozens of them. Great. Sounds like a high old time. Hope you have your Playstation subscription paid up, because that's what you'll be doing next weekend when the group gets together again. Fool me once... you know the drill. There's nothing fun about a game like that, and less fun about spending that rare weekend time around someone who plays that way.
It's called WAAC (win at all costs) and it's never been hard to find that approach in players.
Maybe I'm a pessimist but anymore I presume my opponent is WAAC until they prove otherwise, rather than the other way around.
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the viper was reviled by an entire generation of players and pushed them into table-flipping rage. it's classic munch.
Doesn't mean it's a fair appraisal of the mech. It's not a bracket firer. At close range you switch out 2 meds for one of the larges. It's a 75 ton clan mech that consistently only puts out a max of 20-24 points of damage per round. If I was going for pure power/must win over style, there are tons of other mechs I would use.
The only reason for the cries of munch with the Black Python is a knee-jerk reaction to seeing pulse lasers. (You would still get the cries without the TC). Plus it doesn't just sit there and slog it out.
The real munch is pretty much any mech with better than regular pilot ;)
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Its a 5/8/5 mech that can put out 20 damage with a -3 TH mod and can generate a +3 TH mod running or jumping. . . the PXH-3PL gets the same treatment even with its shorter range IS Pulses and lower damage values. Yes the Python has weaknesses- MG ammo and the valuable TC is in the arm. Notice I included the RFL IIC, which does not have the same armor as the Python, is slower and does not have a TC- its about the synergy of the design choices.
And yes it is bracket in regards to heat-
2 Large at ranges 13-20, run or jump w/ 0 heat
1 Large & 2 Meds at ranges 7-12, jump w/0 heat or
2 Large & 1 Med at ranges 7-12, run w/0 heat
1 Large/2 Med/4 Small & MGs at ranges 1-6, run w/2 heat or
1 Large/2 med/3 Small & MGs at range 1-6, run w/0 heat or
1 Large/2 Med/2 Small & MGs at range 1-6, jump w/1 heat
Yes, I know MGs are 1-3 hex range
You did not see the Kingfisher Prime listed as cheese (could be with cause) it has a SFE, 2 LPL & 2 MPL . . . one of those are in the CT so it can definitely outlast and still use that Large. Or the Huntsman A which is 5/8 and has a pair of Large Pulse Lasers. One person said the Widowmaker, but no one else agreed with that yet . . . or the Dire Wolf A with its three Large Pulse.
I understand you are a recovering Viper fan, but the Black Python falls into that category with Pulse, TC, Armor & mobility.
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also depends what you're fighting. Vipers murderize lights and low-end mediums. Against assaults it's relatively limp. We've accounted for that now, but it upended assumptions of the game when it came out
Lets just say while it might border on munch now, (I'd place it just outside for it's BPV) it flat out was in the '90s. The canon designs hadn't accounted for it's presence, or the other clan 'second line' monsters from 3055. The fact that the point system in tactical handbook was borked didn't help; when a jagermech cost the same as a vapor eagle (IIRC,) something's wrong.
To use an analogy, MTG in the era I entered, homelands/fallen empires, had a sorta-balanced paradigm. A few years later, during urza's mess, there was a perfect storm of fast mana and search cards. This led to blue/whatever combo decks being pretty much unbeatable. You either built around that fact, or, since I didn't have $500-600 to rebuild my collection, quit.
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The real munch is pretty much any mech with better than regular pilot ;)
edit: d'oh!
Not really. You pay for that elite pilot in BV.
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also depends what you're fighting. Vipers murderize lights and low-end mediums. Against assaults it's relatively limp. We've accounted for that now, but it upended assumptions of the game when it came out
Lets just say while it might border on munch now, (I'd place it just outside for it's BPV) it flat out was in the '90s. The canon designs hadn't accounted for it's presence, or the other clan 'second line' monsters from 3055. The fact that the point system in tactical handbook was borked didn't help; when a jagermech cost the same as a vapor eagle (IIRC,) something's wrong.
To use an analogy, MTG in the era I entered, homelands/fallen empires, had a sorta-balanced paradigm. A few years later, during urza's mess, there was a perfect storm of fast mana and search cards. This led to blue/whatever combo decks being pretty much unbeatable. You either built around that fact, or, since I didn't have $500-600 to rebuild my collection, quit.
Pretty much this. When the Viper was released, even most Clan mechs were badly unoptimized. It was a supposedly inferior second-line mech that could take a Mad Cat down in most one-on-one fights.
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I've been looking at the thread title for a while now and I can't resist any further: I'm not sure that there are any canon munchkin mechs armed with cannons.
Hellstar. Particle Cannon.
Checkmate.
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also depends what you're fighting. Vipers murderize lights and low-end mediums. Against assaults it's relatively limp.
Actually, assaults it what it shines against. With it's mobility advantage it can much more easily get behind an assault. For lights and mediums it will have to go through the front armor most of the time.
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A 5/8/5 doesn't have enough mobility to get behind an assault mech without weathering some serious hits unless that mech is distracted. Once it does get behind an assault mech, it can be difficult to dislodge it but many of them have enough rear armor to last a while. The small damage clusters are a liability against assaults. It's far more effective against light and medium mechs due to stripping away their ability to get higher TMMs.
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There are two basic paths to munch.
1. Firepower. The Hellstar is a poster child, but the more usual culprits are the Mechs with excessive Clan LPLs, often with a targeting computer.
2. Mobility. Viper was mentioned. You could consider the Wraith. There is a generation of IJJ IS mediums that fall into this category. The modus operandi is denying the enemy a chance to hit and slowly slowly or so very slowly wearing an opponent down.
Often combined with LPLs to ensure they hit when the target doesn't. SNPPCs seem to be a popular option too.
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There are two basic paths to munch.
1. Firepower. The Hellstar is a poster child, but the more usual culprits are the Mechs with excessive Clan LPLs, often with a targeting computer.
2. Mobility. Viper was mentioned. You could consider the Wraith. There is a generation of IJJ IS mediums that fall into this category. The modus operandi is denying the enemy a chance to hit and slowly slowly or so very slowly wearing an opponent down.
Often combined with LPLs to ensure they hit when the target doesn't. SNPPCs seem to be a popular option too.
Three paths.
Firepower. ER-PPC is the poster child here.
Mobility. The weakest of the three, at least outside introtech. Usually looks for backshots.
Accuracy. If you're hitting on 7s (~57% of the time) and your opponent is hitting on 10s (~16% of the time,) then unless luck or a massive imbalance in firepower or armour is a factor, you're going to win. LPL/Tarcomp, although precision ammo/tarcomp is a thing too.
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If raw firepower of the Clan ERPPC was munch why has no one mentioned the Marauder IIC?
50 points of damage at 20 hexes is normal for a Clan assault likewise 40 for an IS Mech.Mechs like the Hellstar and Thunder Hawk get mentioned because they breach this limit and use a lot of head capping weapons. But I am not sure that any one complains about raw firepower.
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Four paths: Recognition ;D
Munchkinism is ultimately subjective, so some mechs will get the title simply because enough people with different views on what is and isn't cheesy will know them well enough and will repeat the statement munchkin enough times that it will be simply accepted as fact without any conscious thought.
Other mechs with similar capabilities will get a pass simply because nobody pays attention to them.
My personal thoughts on the subject is that munchkin is a meaningless phrase that serves more to shut down discussion or critical thought than it does to promote it.
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Four paths: Recognition ;D
Munchkinism is ultimately suggestive, so some mechs will get the title simply because enough people with different views on what is and isn't cheesy will know them well enough and will repeat the statement munchkin enough times that it will be simply accepted as fact without any conscious thought.
Other mechs with similar capabilities will get a pass simply because nobody pays attention to them.
My personal thoughts on the subject is that munchkin is a meaningless phrase that serves more to shut down discussion or critical thought than it does to promote it.
:beer:
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There's a substantial difference between exploiting someone's tactical mistakes and being a poor sport. Would you "punish" someone by dropping five platoons of hover infantry on them if they'd simply chosen a mech that didn't have machine guns rather than dumping the MG ammo? And more to the point, in either scenario would you expect that the player would ever show up to another of your games?
It's a two way street. It's not just the GM or other player calling out the obvious gaming of the system when they dump their MG ammo or extra ton of AC ammo that is rarely used. (Dragon say)
The expectation is the players behave in reasonable manners. If you are just playing a one off game, I suppose. It's likely forces chosen by each side according to their preference.
In a campaign, whether or not you are engaged in full blown role playing using AToW or just tracking pilot/crew experience, there is some expectation of playing "in universe." At least every time I've ever played. For one player to just walk out and say "I'm loading half ammo, not loading the MG's" or "I'm dumping all my ammo on the Battlemaster turn 1." would be received poorly by every player I've played face to face with in the nearly 30 years I've played Battletech. Doing so manipulates the game and rules to a players advantage.
Most games we play are BV balanced, or at least we look at it to make sure we haven't stacked the deck one way or the other too much. (Unless it's intentional) As a GM, if I didn't alter the force to make the player feel some consequences for the action I'd recalculate the BV of the units. Ammo is a negative to BV. It might not add a whole lot to the BV but if a whole lance or company did that? You could reasonably see the BV go up meaningfully. I'd point that out and adjust the opfor upward. Either by adding infantry and/or Vtols OR I'd upgun the mechs. Those Centurion CN-9A? Now CN9-AL. WV-4R? LEt's make those 4M's. It's only appropriate.
A battle string where only limited repair and re-arm would be appropriate. Force 2 is... infantry & Vtols. Guess you miss the MG's and the ability to carry that Flak ammo?
I wouldn't really want that player back to be honest. It's a question of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. As a GM I could make them face a full company of the best Zombies in canon or customized perfectly heat neutral monsters. That isn't fair. It's also not really in the spirit of the game to just dump your ammo the first turn.
At the very least in a campaign situation I'd enforce a financial penalty on the player for being wasteful. Command isn't going to like it. Especially if the players lose or have to retreat and they have left tons of useable ammo on the field. It's entirely different if the unit is damaged and exposed. You are precisely right command would say "Dump the ammo, save the Warhammer."
Do what you like of course. I consider premature ammo dumping to be munchkinism of the second highest order. The highest being custom designed "perfect" units.
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In a campaign, a player could (and should) simply be allowed to customize their mech by removing the machine gun and replacing it and its vulnerable ammo with small lasers, armor, or some other minor customization.
Let me ask you, would you "punish" the players for simply choosing to run variants of the mechs that excluded the machine guns to begin with? Is it "exploitative" to choose a Warhammer 6L instead of a 6R? Because I don't see how dumping MG ammo when forced to take it in a pick-up game is any more exploitative than moving into to a Heavy Woods hex or Partial Cover.
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Gents, the OP was asking about mechs, not rules.
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In a campaign, a player could (and should) simply be allowed to customize their mech by removing the machine gun and replacing it and its vulnerable ammo with small lasers, armor, or some other minor customization.
Let me ask you, would you "punish" the players for simply choosing to run variants of the mechs that excluded the machine guns to begin with? Is it "exploitative" to choose a Warhammer 6L instead of a 6R? Because I don't see how dumping MG ammo when forced to take it in a pick-up game is any more exploitative than moving into to a Heavy Woods hex or Partial Cover.
If customization were that common, it would be all over. In canon, you see customized mechs for A list characters and commanders or coming up with Jerry-rigged repairs. So in a campaign you would have to expend significant capital, influence and time to get the techs to make the changes you suggest. I would certainly make sure there were secret rolls to see if the customizations fail or cause unpredictable results. (Say swapping the MG's of the PHX-1 and putting in Small lasers) Unless they tested it extensively. In a campaign a player unit would be expected to face all different kinds of threats. Customizing the ammo away is a recipe for disaster if the GM is creative at all.
As far as choosing the Hot Hammer or other non-energy variants. No, I wouldn't punish them. You characterize this as punishment, I call it "natural consequences." If the player group has a unit finely tuned for mech combat, somebody is going to notice that they have no way to defend against infantry. No AC's to load Flak to defend against Vtol's. That happens. Modern Tank tactics call for infantry support in all but open fields because tanks are vulnerable to destruction by infantry.
It's not even outside of canon. Most units have loads of infantry support. Entire regiments of infantry and conventional forces.
GM "Battle 2 is against the local militia as the 10th Lyran Guard falls back" You run into the Donegal militia.
Player 1"Great should be a turkey shoot, Let's go get em"
GM "Your mechs are repaired and re-armed. Anything you want to do to prepare?"
Player 2. "Let's rock em, what do the scouts show"
GM "Scouting shows the Militia are waiting in prepared positions along the route to your objective. They cannot approach closely as they will begin taking LRM fire. Unless you want to play out your scout lance approaching the militia."
Player 2. "Nah, they'd just get killed. We could go around"
GM "You could but the militia regiments are spread out along the best approaches. Detouring will add at least 2 days to your travel time. If may also interfere with other unit operations. You orders are to attack along the corridor with the militia and pursue the 10th Lyran to limit their ability to recover but you have wide operational authority. What do you wish to do?"
Player 1: "It's just militia, let's roll 'em."
Player 2: "OK"
GM "You approach the entrance to a broad valley. The militia are setup on the hills and in the pass into the valley. Terrain will favor the defenders in the hills, the pass is more open, Scouting shows the pass more heavily defended."
Player 2. "Let's hit the Pass, we can take em"
Player 1 "Right"
(Setup board, note the locations of the entrenchments, hidden tanks and infantry)
1 turn in "These 3 units dump their extra ammo, like we always do."
GM "Remember you can't run or jump for 2 turns"
"Yeah, we know, the tanks are far away they won't hit us."
Turn 2 as the mechs move at the best speed into the map and begin taking long range shots.
"You begin taking fire from the rear, as hidden infantry reveal themselves"
Player 1 " What?"
"Your slow moving ammo dumping units are targeted"
(Rolls to hit)
2 of the three units are destroyed in massive ammo explosions as per the rules any damage to the rear torsos will detonate the ammo.
Player 2 "Oh @#$%^"
"Your opponents seem to have received intel on your tactics from the 10th Lyran. The rest of the hidden units, reveal themselves. You face a reinforced Conventional company with infantry support. Radar picks up 2 flights of Vtols incoming. You are down two mechs of your company. The pilots were immediately captured by the enemy infantry. Unless you want to resist in which case your mechwarriors each face an entire infantry platoon, alone"
Players "Give the fall back order"
Noting about the scenario above is "punishing the players" They are unprepared to face specific sorts of units. They don't even consider the possibility of infantry. I am making that assumption, but I think players that customize their forces to face mechs would behave in that manner pretty consistently. They are unbalanced. The "punishment" they face is of their own creation.
A balanced and prepared company would be able to recover from the ambush as even a dozen platoons of infantry wouldn't do that much damage, it's unlikely that all the mechs would be in range anyway. That BM can turn and spray the impertinent PBI with MG and SRM fire. That PHX that keeps it's MG's jumps away from danger and liquifies an infantry platoon when it lands. The Vindicator runs off seeking the support of units better equipped to handle the infantry threat and can focus on the Tanks breaking cover.
I guess I expect my players to be more than "murder hobos."
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You do realize that I started out by saying that dumping ammo the first round was a tactic for pick-up games when they're not allowed to choose to load less than max ammo, not for campaigns where they logically should be able to do so, right? And the number one rule of every RPG is that it is not GM vs players. The GM's job is to provide fun scenarios for the players. Doing something like popping hidden infantry on the players in their deployment area is pretty much the exact opposite of that.
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Depends on your definition of fun.
Facing Opfor's that are challenging, adaptive and varied. Most people I've played with since I was over 20 want that. Losing happens. Ambushes etc are common in military conflict, even on a large scale. They are rather common in small unit tactics.
If fun is just rolling the enemy and tweaking out units in predictable game and rule optimizing ways.
Loading less ammo isn't much different that dumping or not loading. Not loading it would be countered with "The regimental CO confronts you. What do you mean you aren't loading your MG ammo and are carrying a half load of SRM ammo?"
"But Colonel, the crit chances go way up when the Battlemaster carries the 2nd ton of SRM ammo and we almost never get to use it in the game."
"What game? Do you want to force an ammo carrier to follow you? Your company carries little enough ammo as it is, are you just going to let your bins run dry"
"Yeah, I don't like that crit table."
Its silly isn't it? That sort of approach is obvious manipulation of the game. It subordinates reasonability to performance. The "fun" argument is valid enough. Assuming that's what your gaming group wants and expects. When I played D & D, I didn't hand out +5 Vorpal Weapons, Staffs of Power or Maces of Disruption at the 3rd level. No doubt my players would have loved that. It would be more fun to allow the Paladin to murder and steal because nobody expects if of him. (Which he can do, losing his Paladin status and likely becoming a wanted criminal in his church) That's not reasonable however.
Isn't it boring to remove the weaknesses of units or to only play units that are optimized? Are games played only to win or for the experience of playing? What's better, a competitive game and/or campaign or one that is just an exercise in victory for the players? I know what I think is better. You don't have to agree.
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Depends on your definition of fun.
Facing Opfor's that are challenging, adaptive and varied. Most people I've played with since I was over 20 want that. Losing happens. Ambushes etc are common in military conflict, even on a large scale. They are rather common in small unit tactics.
Hitting your opponent with overwhelming force is also common in military conflict, but it doesn't make for a terribly fun game. Real military engagements aren't done on arbitrary rectangular maps. A game should not be set up so that an ambushing force is getting free back-shots on the other side in the first round.
Loading less ammo isn't much different that dumping or not loading. Not loading it would be countered with "The regimental CO confronts you. What do you mean you aren't loading your MG ammo and are carrying a half load of SRM ammo?"
"But Colonel, the crit chances go way up when the Battlemaster carries the 2nd ton of SRM ammo and we almost never get to use it in the game."
"What game? Do you want to force an ammo carrier to follow you? Your company carries little enough ammo as it is, are you just going to let your bins run dry"
"Yeah, I don't like that crit table."
Its silly isn't it?
Of course an argument is going to be silly if you deliberately frame it to be silly. The real conversation would be more along the lines of the mechwarrior pointing out how often mechs are destroyed by ammunition explosions, then pointing out how excessive full ton of machine gun ammo is for a typical mission and as that they be allowed to carry a smaller amount that's more reasonable for the amount of use that can be expected for their mech's machine gun in the upcoming engagement. You're the only one who's even mentioned any other types of amm-using weapons.
When I played D & D, I didn't hand out +5 Vorpal Weapons, Staffs of Power or Maces of Disruption at the 3rd level. No doubt my players would have loved that. It would be more fun to allow the Paladin to murder and steal because nobody expects if of him. (Which he can do, losing his Paladin status and likely becoming a wanted criminal in his church) That's not reasonable however.
Which would perhaps be relevant if someone were saying "I shouldn't have to have my inexperienced Mechwarrior from the Periphery start with a Stinger, I should be able to start with a customized Daishi."
Isn't it boring to remove the weaknesses of units or to only play units that are optimized? Are games played only to win or for the experience of playing? What's better, a competitive game and/or campaign or one that is just an exercise in victory for the players? I know what I think is better. You don't have to agree.
There's a vast gulf between only playing a completely optimized design and simply acting to remove a glaring flaw that does nothing but act as an impromptu self-destruct.
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What about wanting to save ammo for later missions?
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In a campaign, a player could (and should) simply be allowed to customize their mech by removing the machine gun and replacing it and its vulnerable ammo with small lasers, armor, or some other minor customization.
There are rules for that. They are not nice to players with bad dice luck.
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The Viper we were talking about earlier is a nice, balanced, unoptimized-for-mech-duels machine that can blender infantry, generate a decent number of hits a short range, or 2 decent, accurate hits at long range. It still manages to be a stone SOB when fighting other mechs. Same for the Vixen and Goshawk from the same book. Most of the rest are dedicated duelers that are 'only' about as nasty, somehow. 3055 rocked for clan second line - better than the omnis in the same book by far.
I still have a soft spot for the baboon.
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There are rules for that. They are not nice to players with bad dice luck.
What book is that in? Is that just AToW? I'm pretty familiar with Total Warfare and the Tech Manual. I am less familiar with the others. AToW is the one rulebook I don't own because I don't roleplay Battletech. To me it's a storyline wargame. It might be worth getting just for that info.
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strategic operations
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Add my vote for the Venom.
Oddly enough, anything that spams firepower, it doesn't have to be big, can be munchy.
I throw in my vote for the Ryoken B, Nova Prime, and Piranha.
Some things besides Mechs:
ProtoMechs - especially that one that simply mounts a clan ER Medium Laser. They're deployed in groups of 5, and have an invulnerability location on the to-hit chart.
SRM and LRM carriers.
Harrasser Laser variant.
Ontos.
Things with speed and a hard punch can also be Munchy: Legionnaire, Saladin hovercraft.
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Add my vote for the Venom.
i was running a campaign where players could buy SPAs with mission xp. the guy with the venom saved up for jumping jack and sharpshooter. was it gratuitous? absolutely. was it beautiful? also yes.
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Sniper is even more glorious. It applies at Extreme range too, making those easier than normal Long range shots...
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Have you tried fielding JES I ? A total of 34 SRM tubes!
I use them in pairs to deploy smokescreens for my brawlers in order to safely approach enemy positions. Super munchy in open terrains!
Also for WoB players- Tornado G17, deployed as an artillery spotter. Improved stealth armor and 7 Vtol MP's! Just ascend to the skies and help bringing missles/shells upon Your enemies! Only 54bv for 6 man point :)
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Deploying smokescreens is not munchkin. That is just sensible tactics to me...
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But being able to deploy 4 hexes of heavy smoke per turn form a mobile platform is kinda munchy :)
Once I used four JES'es thus completely blocking LOS from enemy positions, good there was no artillery on board.
BTW the extra ton of ammo on Battlemaster could be smoke!
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The Warlord comes close . 2 Heavy PPCs and 6 ER med Lasers with 16 double heat sinks .
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In a campaign, whether or not you are engaged in full blown role playing using AToW or just tracking pilot/crew experience, there is some expectation of playing "in universe." At least every time I've ever played. For one player to just walk out and say "I'm loading half ammo, not loading the MG's" or "I'm dumping all my ammo on the Battlemaster turn 1." would be received poorly by every player I've played face to face with in the nearly 30 years I've played Battletech. Doing so manipulates the game and rules to a players advantage.
In a campaign you should never use BV. BV does not reflect anything "in universe" except maybe in single point scale Clan challenges for deciding something like whether a Howler or Piranha constitutes the lower bid. Any time you care about in character decision making other than single point Clan bidding or deciding what odds a Solaris bookie would set, the limits that matter are things like price, the number you can fit in your dropship, and the availability ratings.
Since you should never be using BV in a campaign context, it doesn't matter that failing to load MG ammo makes a mech stronger than its BV.
People "in universe" know that ammo explosions are a thing. They're why the Davions were trying so many flashbulb refits in the early 31st century. If someone out of universe who isn't in danger of a messy death from an ammo explosion thinks the ammo is too risky it's entirely in character for someone "in universe" to think the same thing.
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Thinking about this more, calling mechs munchkin is dangerous. It allows someone who enjoys playing a different way to be unpersoned and excluded.
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In a campaign you should never use BV. BV does not reflect anything "in universe" except maybe in single point scale Clan challenges for deciding something like whether a Howler or Piranha constitutes the lower bid. Any time you care about in character decision making other than single point Clan bidding or deciding what odds a Solaris bookie would set, the limits that matter are things like price, the number you can fit in your dropship, and the availability ratings.
Since you should never be using BV in a campaign context, it doesn't matter that failing to load MG ammo makes a mech stronger than its BV.
People "in universe" know that ammo explosions are a thing. They're why the Davions were trying so many flashbulb refits in the early 31st century. If someone out of universe who isn't in danger of a messy death from an ammo explosion thinks the ammo is too risky it's entirely in character for someone "in universe" to think the same thing.
Certainly "in universe" people don't know what BV is. But they will have a concept of stronger machines and weakness. The point of considering BV is the clear manipulation of the game and game mechanics ammo dumping and failing to load ammo.
Ammo explosions are a thing in real warfare too. Do modern tanks go with partial loads of ammo when beginning a new battle?
The list of the secondard armament of the US Abrahms main battle tank.
A .50 cal. (12.7 mm) M2HB machine gun in front of the commander's hatch. On the M1 and M1A1, this gun is mounted on the Commander's Weapons Station. This allows the weapon to be aimed and fired from within the tank. The later M1A2 variant had a 'flex' mount that required the tank commander to expose his or her upper torso in order to fire the weapon. In urban environments in Iraq this was found to be unsafe. With the Common Remote Operated Weapons System (CROWS) add-on kit, an M2A1 .50 Caliber Machinegun, M240, or M249 SAW can be mounted on a CROWS remote weapons platform (similar to the Protector M151 remote weapon station used on the Stryker family of vehicles). Current variants of the Tank Urban Survival Kit (TUSK) on the M1A2 have forgone this, instead adding transparent gun shields to the commander's weapon station. The upgrade variant called the M1A1 Abrams Integrated Management (AIM) equips the .50 caliber gun with a thermal sight for accurate night and other low-visibility shooting.[101]
A 7.62 mm M240 machine gun in front of the loader's hatch on a skate mount (seen at right). Some of these were fitted with gun shields during the Iraq War, as well as night-vision scopes for low-visibility engagements and firing.
A second 7.62 mm M240 machine gun in a coaxial mount (i.e., it points at the same targets as the main gun) to the right of the main gun. The coaxial MG is aimed and fired with the same computerized firing control system used for the main gun.
(Optional) A second coaxial .50 cal. (12.7 mm) M2HB machine gun can be mounted directly above the main gun in a remote weapons platform as part of the TUSK upgrade kit.
Aiming
So, I wonder what commanders would say. "You know, we might take a hit that would set off the coaxial ammo and it might kill us. Let's not load it, or maybe just enough for one quick suppression."
Certainly mech developers and the nations of the IS know that ammo based weapons have some inherent risk. Thus the development of the flashbulbs you mentioned. That doesn't mean that they don't send their units into battle without ammunition to keep them from suffering a catastrophic ammoboom.
We don't even play the way Mech combat is often described. Battles are lots of skirmishes with time to repair and reload. What takes 20 or 30 turns to play through the destruction of a company is described as taking hours because neither force is going to just push their units into each other.
It's a manipulation of the game and requires suspending too much of the tiny bit of reality that Battletech has to allow when I play. Again, 30 years experience with the game, played against many people and places. Literally multiple hundreds of games vs humans in Mekwars using Megamek. Never proposed to allow such behavior and never had it asked, except in Mekwars when people were literally just trying to manipulate things. Thus it was disallowed in the campaign.
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Certainly "in universe" people don't know what BV is. But they will have a concept of stronger machines and weakness. The point of considering BV is the clear manipulation of the game and game mechanics ammo dumping and failing to load ammo.
Ammo explosions are a thing in real warfare too. Do modern tanks go with partial loads of ammo when beginning a new battle?
In World War 2, once it was determined that some tanks were highly vulnerable to having their ammo cook off but before "wet" storage was developed, some tanks did start going into battle with only a partial load to help prevent it from happening.
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Yup, and your supply situation also determines the load . . . for instance, I think in all but the most optimistic battle planning for the Fulda Gap scenarios it was expected that NATO forces would not be getting full reloads for critical munitions (tank rounds, AT missiles, guided bombs, maybe demo) as conflict ground on. Makes Roderick having to retreat from the Wolf Empire in Bonfire of Worlds interesting since they were carrying light munition loads.
Ammo dumping also has another analogy . . . fighter-bombers going in for ground strikes who get pounced on by fighters/interceptors will dump their ground attack ordnance to improve their performance- which increases their chance of survival.
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Let's take the ammo-dumping arguments elsewhere.
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Let's take the ammo-dumping arguments elsewhere.
As you instruct, so do I obey.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63301.0
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As you instruct, so do I obey.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63301.0
Many thanks. It's an interesting topic, and deserves discussion, but not in a thread devoted to other matters. Much appreciated!
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Osteon Prime
Ignore the NCEWS. The mech is infuriating because It. Just. Won't. Die. despite looking like it should.
Ferro-Lamellor Armor. Reinforced Structure. Case II. The thing can take a gauss to its head and not be headcapped. Not that it matters, because the pilot isn't in there. Ammo critical? Probably going to hurt the pilot worse than the mech.
It can have heat problems, but if it does, you've got bigger problems because that means enough streak ATM have locked on to do a Hellstar or more (much more) worth of damage.
Then you get to the jump-5, 2-LPL+Tarcomp version and your enemies know what hate is.
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Osteon Prime
Ignore the NCEWS. The mech is infuriating because It. Just. Won't. Die.
Ferro-Lamellor Armor. Reinforced Structure. Case II. The thing can take a gauss to its head and not be headcapped. Not that it matters, because the pilot isn't in there. Ammo critical? Probably going to hurt the pilot worse than the mech.
It can have heat problems, but if it does, you've got bigger problems because that means enough streak ATM have locked on to do a Hellstar or more (much more) worth of damage.
Then you get to the jump-5, 2-LPL+Tarcomp version and your enemies know what hate is.
God, the Osteon Prime's probably my favorite mech, with the exception of the Huntsman.
I once used the Prime with indirect Fire rules on an Urban map, and used it to IDF bombard someone a row of buildings away with HE munitions. They were not happy.
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Osteon Prime
Ignore the NCEWS. The mech is infuriating because It. Just. Won't. Die.
Ferro-Lamellor Armor. Reinforced Structure. Case II. The thing can take a gauss to its head and not be headcapped. Not that it matters, because the pilot isn't in there. Ammo critical? Probably going to hurt the pilot worse than the mech.
It can have heat problems, but if it does, you've got bigger problems because that means enough streak ATM have locked on to do a Hellstar or more (much more) worth of damage.
Then you get to the jump-5, 2-LPL+Tarcomp version and your enemies know what hate is.
It may not be a true "zombie" like most Archangle vars, but this thing is going to take a lot of killing. The only "good" news is the pilot is likely to be a tosser.
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Huh? The Osteon is more survivable than the Arcangel because the inherent advantages of the Clan tech base . . . It has 18 tons of Ferro-Lam armor, built of reinforced structure, uses CASE II when it mounts ammo, and instead of C3i it mounts the better Nova CEWS. The fluff is that it was built to survive . . . it takes 80% damage from hits, laughs at LBX golden BBs, when it DOES get get crit the results roll takes a -1 (means no limbs blown off on a 12), and it uses weapons smartly unlike a lot of Celestials. The C (2 LPL, 4 MPL, TC, 3/5/5) and D (4 LPL w/ 38HS) are cheese . . . even before they are connected to the little Cephalus A, which does not have any offensive weapons but is a 10/15/7 and still has the Nova CEWS's 6 hex bubble.
The Osteon D and Ceph A can be linked up and be under 5k BV with effective pilots.
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And unlike the Archangel it's well armed.
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Osteon D... how the heck have I missed this wedge of Parmesan all this while...
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Huh? The Osteon is more survivable than the Arcangel because the
I think he's equating XL-engine = not!zombie
It is, however, a clan XL, which means Osteon can take getting a torso ripped off. It really doesn't like it, but it can take it.
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I think he's equating XL-engine = not!zombie
It is, however, a clan XL, which means Osteon can take getting a torso ripped off. It really doesn't like it, but it can take it.
Also, even if you take both torsos off an Archangel, most variants still have enough weapons in the head and CT that ignoring it would be unwise. Especially since if you've managed to do that much damage to an Archangel, that fellow has probably left some thin spots in your armor too.
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Archangels are tough, sure, but they're still going to die if they take a single Gauss slug to the head and they're far from optimized. If you look at the actual amount of damage you'll need to inflict to kill an Archangel vs an Osteon, it's actually pretty similar and the Osteon is generally going to inflict a lot more in retaliation.
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It has something like 40 points of internal structure on each side torso, and when you are hitting it you are less likely to get a crit to that engine- which means that it has more IS than the Archangel sports and I think due to the Ferro-Lam it effectively has more armor. The weapon loads on the Celestials are all sorts of whiskey tango foxtrot with a few exceptions and the AA is no exception with very few having the right reach for a slowpoke- at best it will also have medium range for most of those weapons since any spotters getting in closer will get shut down.
Its also not outright kill on that AA, all I need is a mission kill- which I grant is harder b/c of that compact gyro, but the leg still comes off the same way and is protected by regular armor.
Its really too bad we never got a WoB vs the Society match up- insane tech vs insane tech with fanatical levels of devotion.
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That would be hilarious. Like a Mad Scientist fight.
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That would be hilarious. Like a Mad Scientist fight.
I would have said a Halloween product but it's too close to spin one out.... April Fools however is only a handful of months away ;)
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Yeah, it would be interesting to see what you could come up with 20-25k BV a side with limiting the pilots skill to 2/3 at best though for MD implants can of course do more.
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Its really too bad we never got a WoB vs the Society match up- insane tech vs insane tech with fanatical levels of devotion.
Now there's a Freddy v Jason idea!
Yeah, it would be interesting to see what you could come up with 20-25k BV a side with limiting the pilots skill to 2/3 at best though for MD implants can of course do more.
The pilot skill would be a major balance point. Society is running bleeding edge Clan gear with mostly green and some regular troops, by IS standards. The best of them would be the deadwood by MD standards, before all the bionic doodads.
The MD are all elite warriors with performance enhancing implants, but their IS tech doesn't hit as hard and Celestials tend to be undergunned, albeit bricky.
I figure the Society troops will be missing a lot more but those hits will take bigger chunks out, while the MD will be looking at much higher hit rates, but less damage.
Back to the opening question, what about the Wight Degreza? It's only a 35 tonner with an IS XL engine, composite skeleton, and it's only packing a clan Large Pulse and a clan medium pulse. It's not exactly armed to the teeth, and despite near max armor, it's certainly very squishy. If you can hit it. On open ground and long range, this thing can generate a +12 modifier! Toggle off the null sig and your defensive mod goes down to a meager +10. Most pilots out there would need start stacking TC+pulse to even make that shot possible!
Along similar lines, what about Interface Cockpits? The Clan stuff is fussier to use. VDNI gives that flat -1 TH. On the other hand, if you are shooting through smoke or woods, at night, EI buys you more.
The Parash 3 stacks EI+Interface+large pulse in a nimble 7/11/7 package. Sure, I would think twice or maybe three times about going up against a Timber Wolf, anything 45 tons or less and not wearing special armor should be wary of this little bugger.
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Yeah, it would be interesting to see what you could come up with 20-25k BV a side with limiting the pilots skill to 2/3 at best though for MD implants can of course do more.
I'm not sure about the WOBbie side, but for the society that's a small force, maybe only a scept with protomechs. Three protos, one Osteon, two Cephalus, 3 Septicemia about fills it after multipliers for c3 and the specialty ammo.
The Jade Falcon society was active in the inner sphere during the Jihad. It's plausible they ran into the WOBbies at some point. Etienne Balzac pulling a raid to get his hands on some prototypes and specifications? But since it's Jade Falcon, you can use the dreaded Turkina Z
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Wars of Reavìng and ISP3 have some nice plot hooks that could plausibly get a Wobbie force, or at least a Wobbie equipped force into a showdown with forces using Society Tech:
"Precentor AzrealDominusXEqunaminous the III. Your mission, is to ascertain the fate of the WOB expatriate faction forces who evacuated the Hanseatic League and Nueva Castile around 3073. Given the state of our fight with Coalition forces, you are to outfit your force for extended independent operations, and may even have to find a suitable site for a Deep Periphery outpost/colony so we may continue His Work far into the future. Advanced tech acquisition from isolated Clan detachment you may run across in that region is of course desirable.
The Bandit leader, known only as Jaguar, is we understand a likely suspect. Track him or any affiliated groups or allies to ascertain the fate of our comrades. Be aware the Test Tube blasphemers are assuredly also seeking him out..."
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Also, even if you take both torsos off an Archangel, most variants still have enough weapons in the head and CT that ignoring it would be unwise. Especially since if you've managed to do that much damage to an Archangel, that fellow has probably left some thin spots in your armor too.
The problem with the Archangel is that, compared to the amount of firepower you need to pour into it to take it out (barring lucky headshots or TACs), it has relatively little firepower, so it´s probably a good idea to kind of ignore it at first and focus on units that you can take out more quickly and where you remove more enemy firepower if you take them out.
That makes the Archangel de facto more survivable that it already is.
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The problem with the Archangel is that, compared to the amount of firepower you need to pour into it to take it out (barring lucky headshots or TACs), it has relatively little firepower, so it´s probably a good idea to kind of ignore it at first and focus on units that you can take out more quickly and where you remove more enemy firepower if you take them out.
That makes the Archangel de facto more survivable that it already is.
I can agree with seeing an armless Archangel as a low priority threat if there is another mech in better condition. Looking across the field and seeing a pristine Hauptman, and shiny Archangel, I can't say I would agree with leaving the Archangel with too much free time. It doesn't have much throw weight, except for the C :-[, but most of its guns tend to extract larger chunks, and with elite MD pilots, it won't miss often. That said, if the Hauptman takes a couple bad hits and looks weak, it suddenly gets my undivided attention.
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Usually, though, you'd expect the Archangel to be teamed up with other Celestials like the Seraph, which tend to hit harder while having decidedly less durability.
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Usually, though, you'd expect the Archangel to be teamed up with other Celestials like the Seraph, which tend to hit harder while having decidedly less durability.
True. I was using the Hauptman because it was similar weight, speed and job description. I also should acknowledge, that I have a bad habit of thinking of the Celestials all as slowish, bricky, zombies that tend to have few, albeit hard hitting weapons. I have to remind myself of that on occasion.