Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank  (Read 6283 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« on: 23 May 2011, 10:07:36 »
Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank

Sometimes you get assault tanks that claim to be main battle tanks, a term that a lot of people prefer to reserve for things like the Manticore or Po, or perhaps the Kinnol on the high, speedy end.  This week we're looking at something named an assault tank that maneuvers like the MBTs of yesteryear, the Wolves' newest tank to debut in combat.  Designed in a rebuilding program intended to get armaments out the door quickly, whether they suited Clan prejudices or not, the Carnivore reuses a lot of components.  The communications and targeting systems were lifted from the Ares (and, in the targeting system, probably some programming changes for a very different weapons load) and the weapons are also shared with other units.  Someone did their homework designing the tank's fluff.  Coming into service in 3082, some have gone to bulking out frontline units with variants primarily going into the open market but deployment to the second-line units has been slow due to their lesser need for replacements.  I imagine that as more 'Mechs come online, that will change, but for now, a Carnivore is more likely to be blundered into by someone hitting a front-line force.  As a note, the Wolves, Falcons, Exiles, and Lyrans are, to date, the only factions deploying any of these, but per the MUL, all four have at least a few of each model.

The Carnivore is actually an assault tank, but only barely, squeezing in with an 80 ton tracked chassis.  A 320-rated extra-light engine powers it to speeds of 64kph for the same 17.5 tons a Schrek (or fusion-powered Demolisher) invests in its 240-rated standard fusion engine.  (Price comments can be filed to /dev/null for mutual convenience.)  15.5 tons of standard plate armor gives more protection than the Alacorn that's been bandied about recently can boast of, layered 62/46/42/52.  Not only does everything pass the double AC/20 test, everything but the rear can withstand three Gauss impacts and still have armor left, exceeding the Mars but not nearly as much in the way of overkill as the Athena's HAG variant.  Those of you who know your Demolishers are going to find the armament package here strongly reminiscent of one of the post-Invasion advanced models - specifically, the Gauss model.  The turret has a pair of Gauss rifles kept fed by four tons of ammunition, the bog standard 16 per gun, and in keeping with the reuse theme going on, they're the same Series II model found on the Sun Cobra.  They declined to invest the half-ton for turreted lasers, but a pair of Series 2d ERMLs grace the front glacis, an older model found on several second-line 'Mechs, the Oro, and the Hachiman.  Where the side-mounted single HMGs were pulled from, I don't know and can't especially be said to care beyond wishing they'd send them back for more generally useful weapons, but infantry trying a close flanking maneuver may not agree with my opinion.  A half-ton of 50 rounds will keep them firing for a while.  (Keep in mind that HMG ammo is twice as heavy as standard MG ammo, perhaps the weapon's only real boon over a pair of the original model, and that only from an explosives safety standpoint.)  Just to put the boot in against the trend of heavy use of advanced electronics, someone in the Wolves' technical establishment slipped an ECM module into the CAD plans at some point.  Overall, this is not a tank an enemy is going to be happy seeing downrange, especially MechWarriors.

Like any good pack of semi-civilized carnivore-worshiping post-hyperspace Vikings with some tool kits in the back of the shed, the Wolves weren't quite done with that worthy.  This is exclusively an armament switch - the armor, drive train, and ECM are all still in place.  The main guns were pulled and replaced with a HAG/40 with five tons of ammunition.  You've lost the sheer penetration that makes Gauss rifles scary but in exchange, the range is a bit longer and the ability to throw up to eight clusters into someone's teeth like a brick isn't something to sneeze at.  VTOLs, WiGEs, and fighters won't enjoy the flak bonus one bit, a nice bonus in a battlefield where combined arms and aerospace are getting more common.  The lasers were replaced by medium pulse models for increased accuracy.  In a smart move, the side-mounted HMGs were upgraded to twin APGRs, doubling anti-armor penetration and increasing infantry killing by a third while dramatically enhancing range and, outside 30 meters, accuracy with 80 shots to go around.  The turret also gained a double mount of AMS fed from two tons of ammo.  I might have swiped a ton of ammo from one of the secondary weapons or the other to get more HAG endurance - especially the APGRs, which are both the shortest-ranged weapons and not as likely to come into use due to facings - but once again, this is a quality design.  In some highly scientific testing involving MegaMek, two points of Carnivores, the bot, an FWLM heavy and assault lance consigned to said bot's ham-fisted tactics, and Twitter, I found the mixture of HAG and standard Carnivores quite effective as far as firepower goes.

The second-line variant is proof that you can teach an old wolf new tricks.  In this case, they were lessons right out of the Diamond Shark Merchant's Handbook.  Instead of the method I hinted at above - replacing the engine with the same 240 SFE already being used in the Clan version of the Demolisher, which would leave the armament intact but dramatically lower the sticker price - the Wolves noted that these were being sold to other people and gutted the armament for a 320 SFE.  The end result of the process reminds me strongly of an overweight Clan Patton.  The armor's the same, just as it was on the HAG model, and the ECM is still in place.  The nose guns are the same MPLs from the HAG.  The side mounts were downgraded to LMGs - longer ranged and more accurate but less powerful with a full ton of ammo.  The real kicker is the fact that they replaced the turret guns with an LB 10-X.  Note the singular article.  The  MPLs are doing their usual bang-up job of making nuisances of themselves, though, and this one needs to get them into range quickly.  Overall, it's more dangerous to tanks than 'Mechs, which can afford to weather the pellet storm longer, but unlike some tanks, the armor is still going to make killing it take some effort.  The "main gun" certainly isn't a real improvement over the IS model since the LB 10-X is probably the single closest match to IS hardware in the game - still a worthy gun, mind you, but not really the magnificent display of ranged beatdown featured on the other two models.  The Wolves have evidently deployed a few of these things to their own forces, which makes a certain amount of sense if they're looking for an MBT on the cheap.  Why the Lyrans and the Wolves-in-Exile are buying them is less clear - there are platforms out there that are much cheaper and do most of the same job already.  The Carnivore is certainly somewhat tougher but it's also more expensive and the Lyrans are looking at not having ready access to new parts for the weapons.  It's possible that this is a subtle hint that Defiance's tank lines (their main source of the Patton and the Manticore, both of which could be fairly easily modified to occupy this niche) aren't back up to speed, but that's supposition.  It's entirely possible that someone got dazzled by a fast talking Wolf in Shark's clothing, too.

The Carnivore is a big departure from traditional Clan design theory and it's not necessarily going to be a popular one given the resources employed in making it a very powerful battle tank.  I do recommend following the canon practice of mixing a few HAG models in with the Gauss variants.  The MPLs are useful all on their own and what a HAG/40 can do for you in terms of either thinning armor or exploiting where the Gauss rifles have cratered it already is almost a religious experience.  It's a decent weapon for poking at someone from a distance but the real beauty is when it closes and that +2 cluster bonus comes into play.  The HAGs will also increase coverage against airborne threats, including a nasty chance for disabling the Lyrans' new toy called the Fensalir.  You generally want to point the front at the enemy where possible to bring your lasers into play and conserve ammo for good shots in most cases and avoid exposing the sides to reduce motive damage, although against infantry turning to give them a blast from the side-mounted PBI disposal units isn't a bad idea.

Carnivores aren't going down too quickly unless you concentrate quite a bit of fire on them, so the main focus needs to be disabling them to allow you to maneuver against them more freely.  The LB 10-X is, as usual, the standout recommendation here for the combination of range and cluster generation, but anything that generates a lot of clusters at range will work.  If you're lucky, you'll also disable the turret in an inconvenient direction.  While you're doing that, try to avoid offering the vehicles the opportunity to focus fire, and keep moving.  If you can, avoid the forward arc, especially if it's disabled - the APGRs on the HAG variant can be annoying but they're a lot less dangerous than any of the laser mounts are.  Clan Wolf's vehicle gunners don't tend to be the best, so Carnivores frequently aren't as dangerous as they could be, but with a vehicle this tough, they're likely to be getting better at their jobs just from surviving to accumulate experience.

Image References: While Iron Wind Metals does have two results for a search on 'Carnivore', both of them are fantasy sculpts.  The Master Unit List has the TRO picture and BV for your perusal.
« Last Edit: 15 June 2011, 20:18:24 by Moonsword »

wantec

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2011, 12:40:47 »
Obviously the Lyrans thought they needed a new recon tank  ;) As for the Wolves in Exile, they are hosting Comstar, who is making the Mongoose II on planet (which uses a 320XL engine) and they worked with the Horses on designing the Cygnus, which uses dual HAG40s in one variant, so maybe they're buying the cheaper version of the Carnivore and modding it to the HAG version. Not likely, I know, but still possible.
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2011, 15:39:54 »
I wouldn't mind using this tank.  It looks good, is well-armoured, has dual GRs and ECM for ghost targets...anything else is a bonus. 

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2011, 16:58:35 »
On the one hand, its hard to imagine anything that could stand up to a point of these things, since you'd have to find a way to work a bid of one mech against four GRs and thirty tons of armor.

But, that point would also cost nearly 4000 BV (before modifications for skill or unit size, if applicable), which is more than any known mech.  That's a pile of cash to spend on unit that, while quick and powerful and relitively hard to kill, are also relitively easy to immoblize or nuteralize.  Yes, its the same old argument around and around again, but it gets argued so often for a reason.  The Carnivore does a hell of a lot better than a lot of high end tanks by being 4/6, so it can take one extra crit to the movement before having to park, and with good range on the main guns it's not really movement driven anyway, so you can put some critics to rest.  But for that BV it has to be competitive agains fairly solid heavies and even mid range assualts (or if deployed by the point against top end assualts with more skilled pilots) and I don't know that its that stunningly much better value.

Of course, much like the Alacorn, if I saw one, I'd pay it the respect of killing it first, and honestly I really do think that's quite a complement.
 
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Ratwedge

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2011, 17:13:23 »
Gauss: Brillant. Have enjoyed finally having a solid MBT for the Clans. Solid firepower and Armor makes it great anchor and dual gauss project the typical "OMG HEADCAPPERS" aura.

HAG: Love it as much Gauss version actually and found it to be a good vehicle. I have condeemed many a Medium and Heavy Tank to death with this variant while shattering any pretense of air support. Also its secondary weapons are superior which helps easy transition to the Gauss RAC in place of the two headcappers.

Second-Line: lolwut.  I love my Clan gear but the Lyrans and even the Exiles possiby have domestic production lines producing cheaper and superior tanks. I am with Wantec in that the Exiles are gonna do something to it and are just buying the cheaper lines to break even.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2011, 05:07:45 »
The Carnivore is a just plain awesome tank; that's all there is to it. Good stats, good weapons good fluff and, by the way, it looks freaking fantastic. I cannot say enough good things about it's design. It looks low, fast and above all else, mean and ready to eat somebody for breakfast.

I agree with the crowd on mixing the HAG and Standard Canrivores in teams; one punches holes, the other exploits them. Both have their strong and weak points, but I must say that, all things being equal, I slightly prefer the HAG version. Maybe I like HAGs, maybe its the secondary guns, or maybe its the fact that it's built for the Falcon market and, thus, I am biased.

(With that being said, given the tradtionally low regard that both Clans hold tanks in, I have to wonder what the Wolves are getting out of the Mechs-for-tanks trade with the Falcons. All the Spirits and Pinions they can carry?)

All up, though, a really cool tank and one I cannot say enough good things about. Yes, the export model is rather weak, but I suspect that it's main selling point is the "HEY LOOK CLAN TECH" appeal that has helped the Sharks so much. It's also one of my three favest Wolf designs ever (along with the Tundra Wolf and the Blood Reaper).
« Last Edit: 24 May 2011, 05:10:04 by Deadborder »
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2011, 06:32:32 »
(With that being said, given the tradtionally low regard that both Clans hold tanks in, I have to wonder what the Wolves are getting out of the Mechs-for-tanks trade with the Falcons. All the Spirits and Pinions they can carry?)

Well, cut from the TRO and tossed in the Supplemental,

Quote from: TRO 3085 Supplemental, p. 48
The Chalchiuhtotolin has also been seen on Clan Wolf planets. Given the similar communication and targeting systems on the Chalchiuhtotolin and the Carnivore, it is likely that the two Clans have been trading the tanks between one another.

They would have been on adjacent pages. Ah well.

I can't say enough good things about the art of this tank. It is so damned sexy.
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Jellico

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2011, 16:45:52 »
It annoys me. 4/6 is the preserve of 65 ton tanks.

For the price of one I can put four Rommels onto the field. Gauss variants.
I can get four Oro (HAG)s.
I can get three Axel IICs. Heck I can get an Axel IIC (XL) which is faster, 30 less armour, similar firepower, and have change left over.

I have spent a lot of time making effecient tanks and that is not what the Carnivore is. 80 tons is just not a good bracket for 4/6 tanks.

Gryphon

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2011, 18:42:20 »
Can't put a price on sex appeal chief, its the way the world works. In a "world" where you track everything by a specific number of resource points (BV), it may not make sense, but in the world itself it makes for a mean tank. A mean, sexy tank too!

Jellico

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2011, 01:58:57 »
Sabutais are considered one of the sexiest aerospace fighters in the sky. They regularly top "favourite" polls around here. They also have a tendency to die like flies.

The Carnivore is not that bad. But looks don't keep you alive.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #10 on: 25 May 2011, 02:59:49 »
But, that point would also cost nearly 4000 BV (before modifications for skill or unit size, if applicable), which is more than any known mech.

This assumes that BV is a determining factor in Clan play, which it frequently is not. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Battle Value is almost null-and-void in the Clan system, being replaced by a system of tonnage, BV and skill sums. So yes, the Carnivore comes with a heavy price tag in Battle Value, but considering a Point is throwing up the same head-capping abilities as a Hellstar each turn, but with close to double the armor coverage, I'd say that's a boon under any system.

FYI - Clan pilots start at 5/6 for Regulars. The final BV of the standard Carnivore is 1717. That's on part with the Inner Sphere's Challenger MBT and the Fensalir, which it certainly outclasses in damage potential.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Carnivore Assault Tank
« Reply #11 on: 25 May 2011, 14:15:50 »
I'd take a 4/5 Challanger over a 5/6 Carnavore, or anything else, any day.  I'd take a 4/5 Paton over one.  Having that much trouble aiming is a lot to overcome.

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