Designing the next generation of Light Mechs (3140s)

[Sabelkatten]

6/9 30-ton quad with lots of hardened armor could still carry an ERPPC or similar.

[Kovax]

In my opinion, the primary uses for Lights in the 3140 era would be recon, anti-recon, harassment/sniper, and anti-personnel.

Recon involves as much speed as possible, with a relatively basic weapon for self-defense against other recon units or dedicated recon-killers, plus some kind of sensor equipment.  Running speed should be AT LEAST 12.  Reflective armor should probably be preferred, since Pulse weapons will be the biggest threat against high TMM units such as this.  While jumping might seem like a great idea, unless you use IJJ or partial wings, in most scattered terrain jumping will not give you a better end TMM than running, and in most terrain you should be able to break LOS easily enough.  There would be cases where a specialized "jumper" would be handy, but in other cases the tonnage could be better spent on higher ground speed.  The Hermes I and Ostscout would be 3025 rough equivalents, at 9/14 and 8/12/8 speed.

Anti-recon involves as much or almost as much speed as a dedicated recon unit, with more emphasis on armor and most likely using pulse weapon(s) instead of sensor equipment.  The Mongoose and Jenner were probably the closest things to it in 3025.

Harassment/Sniper would require more speed than all but the fastest Mediums (7/11 or 8/12), plus one weapon with extreme range, to get high TMMs while delivering fire at typically slower and easier-to-hit targets.  That could be an AC/2 for "parking" vehicles from beyond their response range, or an ER energy weapon for firing from ranges and speeds where return fire is next to impossible.  As long as the enemy has better firing options against bigger threats, the harasser is generally quite safe.  A Panther or Valkyrie is too slow to harass and would get crushed quickly, a Spider doesn't have the weapon range and might need to close within short range of some rather nasty big guns in order to fire.

Anti-Personnel would need reasonable speed (6/9 or faster), decent armor, and anti-infantry weapons, with at least one of those weapons suitable for longer-range combat against other 'Mechs or vehicles.  This kind of 'Mech would need to operate within vicinity of heavier friendly units, so it could fall back for protection if needed.

Any kind of situation where a 'Mech needs to withstand pounding for more than a turn of fire is inherently unsuitable for Light 'Mechs in the post-Clan-equipment era.  Any Light 'Mech that has to get into Short Range of something with Pulse weapons to fire effectively is a suicide machine, and even getting into Medium Range is questionable.  That means, either a Light needs to operate outside of those ranges and still have respectable to-hit odds, or else it needs to avoid direct combat against other 'Mechs and perform other roles (which are a rarity in the typical BT tabletop battle).

Warfare in the BT universe is increasingly becoming similar to warfare in the modern era: if it's seen, it can easily be killed; it's just a question of having the proper equipment to do so on hand where and when it's needed.

[massey]

I think you've got to ask what role the mech is expected to play.  Very generally, heavy mechs were meant to be the main force that engaged the enemy.  Assault mechs were specialists for when you needed maximum power, but were too expensive and slow to make up the majority of your army.  Medium mechs were jacks of all trades, not as good as a heavy at pure combat, but faster and cheaper.  Light mechs were scouts and harassers, dirt cheap by mech standards but falling way short in raw combat power.

With ballooning military budgets and much higher mech costs, the savings you get from using a light mech have started to shrink.  When you're using an XXXXL Engine, Blue Shield System, stealth armor, ECM, targeting computer, and Clan heavy lasers on your 25 ton mech... wouldn't you be better served by buying an old tech Atlas?

I think late generation light mechs need to have a role or two, and specialize into that.  The Dart 3S is a good example.  25 tons, 9/14 movement, 3 small pulse lasers.  It's an awesome infantry platoon killer, and it's extremely cheap.  The only new tech on it would be the pulse lasers.  Now you don't want an enemy mech within 5 miles of your Dart, but it's a high speed pain in the ass for your opponent.  If you've got an extra Leopard dropship you can bring along, then a lance of Darts can cause all sorts of problems that your enemy can't ignore.

In larger battles, light mechs should probably provide some kind of benefit to the unit as a whole (ECM, Beagle, C3, Narc, Tag, etc) in a relatively inexpensive package, but survive by being a low enough priority target that it's not worth shooting at them.  Are you gonna shoot that guy who jumped 10 into heavy woods with an ECM suite, who is shooting an inferno SRM-6 and a medium laser?  Or are you gonna shoot that heavy mech who got a +2 and is blasting away with 2 PPCs and a Gauss Rifle?  Light mechs can survive a long time by never being the most important target.

I think it's a mistake to layer on the most expensive technologies possible, when much of the appeal of the light mech is its cost.  Remember that as advanced tech becomes more common, that also means that dropships and jumpships become more common as well.  Each individual mech bay is less important.

[Kovax]

Agreed that cost is still a major factor in favor of Lights, although that doesn't matter in a BV2-based scenario.  Piling on more high-cost goodies defeats at least half of the reason that you chose the 'Mech in the first place, so high tech should be used sparingly, and only when it directly enhances the 'Mech's specific mission capabilities.  Basically, they still make a lot of sense in the BT universe in a variety of limited-combat or combat support roles, but steadily declining sense on the post-3050 tabletop.

Let's see, I can deploy a Medium 'Mech with an XXL engine and advanced weapons, armor, and detection equipment to do recon runs for "only" around 15 Million C-Bills, or an upgraded Locust with some advanced detection gear that moves marginally faster and will do recon just as well for under 2 Million, but I might lose twice as many Locusts.  Tough choice....

In a BV2 situation where the 'Mech is expected to take on other 'Mechs at close quarters, and the "Battle Value" doesn't factor in the incredible cost of the advanced engine and undervalues the increased speed that it allows...that's a different story.

[Colt Ward]

You are talking about 3050s cost of the XXL- by 3145 its not experimental tech any longer, it is much more mainstream so those cost factors are off.  Same with XL Gyros or even advanced armors like Reflective & Ferro-Lam which were being deployed towards the end of the Jihad.  Its like buying the first smartphone back in early 2000s during the flip phone era vs buying a smart phone now after the tech has developed.  If we were talking straight economics & logistics, we would be discussing optimized Omni platforms in each weight group- light would have Scout & Skirmisher base designs, etc . . . rather than standard battlemechs.

Instead, its the next generation of line light mechs- not specialists or militia fodder.  Raptors vs building more advanced Phantom designs in essence- while quantity does have a quality of its own, that is a argument for the militia/defender built mechs rather than the frontline offensive commands that I was suggesting.

Besides, what Medium mech goes as fast as the Wulfen or Gunsmith?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Incorrect, 5+ to-hit (18-24 hex) and 6+ to-hit are possible (25+ hex).

I stand corrected. Good to know. Still, it seems too hard to get compared by gain +1 by jump, though.

[Ruger]

Besides, what Medium mech goes as fast as the Wulfen or Gunsmith?

The Dasher II?

Ruger

[massey]

I think you still have to keep some basic calculations in mind.

"How much am I willing to spend to kill that foot infantry platoon?"  and  "How much am I willing to lose if my mech runs through a city and gets shot by a hidden SRM Carrier/Hetzer?"

That's why I think lights should still remain as cheap as possible to perform their assigned duties.  They'll become more specialized as more advanced tech becomes available.

[Colt Ward]

Good call Ruger, I never got the Jihad TROs so I do forget about things that are not Celestials . . . but the Dasher II is a fat 'light' and is a very small degree difference, it will not have a significant payload difference from a 35t that does the same thing.

"How much am I willing to spend to kill that foot infantry platoon?"  and  "How much am I willing to lose if my mech runs through a city and gets shot by a hidden SRM Carrier/Hetzer?"

Both are niche situations . . . mechs should not be killing infantry during a pitched battle, unless absolutely needed . . . the job would be carried out by either secondary weapons on a heavier design, your own BA or armor.  The discussion was to fight mechs and armor in a pitched battle, they would need to exploit the advances with their one strength- free crits.  Sending any sort of armored force into a urban environment is always a bad idea for taking losses and getting bogged down.  The same SRM Carrier can just as easily wreck a heavy mech as it would a light.  Ideally you do not want to have mechs even clearing the city, encircle and let infantry backed by ISVs work out any enemy forces.

That's why I think lights should still remain as cheap as possible to perform their assigned duties.  They'll become more specialized as more advanced tech becomes available.

?  Its in the title- 3140s, advanced tech is available but the lights are rarely taking advantage of it.  I provided a few examples from the last TRO that kept lights in their pre- battlefield role of skirmishers.  To return to 'speed is armor' theme without ended up with a Fireball or Dart, you have to use 'current' technology

[massey]

Both are niche situations . . . mechs should not be killing infantry during a pitched battle, unless absolutely needed . . . the job would be carried out by either secondary weapons on a heavier design, your own BA or armor.  The discussion was to fight mechs and armor in a pitched battle, they would need to exploit the advances with their one strength- free crits.  Sending any sort of armored force into a urban environment is always a bad idea for taking losses and getting bogged down.  The same SRM Carrier can just as easily wreck a heavy mech as it would a light.  Ideally you do not want to have mechs even clearing the city, encircle and let infantry backed by ISVs work out any enemy forces.

Lights shouldn't really be in a pitched battle.  You have to recognize that a light designed to fight in a big battle with other mechs is just as much a niche specialist as anything else.

You're right that that SRM Carrier can wreck a heavy just as easily.  That's why you would rather use a light in that situation.  The cheap, mobile mech with an active probe serves a purpose.  And it really reduces the cost if you get caught in an ambush.

?  Its in the title- 3140s, advanced tech is available but the lights are rarely taking advantage of it.  I provided a few examples from the last TRO that kept lights in their pre- battlefield role of skirmishers.  To return to 'speed is armor' theme without ended up with a Fireball or Dart, you have to use 'current' technology

While it makes sense that advanced tech would get cheaper by that point, we don't actually have any numbers that show it.  Presumably even in 3140, an old tech Stinger is a lot cheaper than something that has every bell and whistle available.  We're talking about cost in a very abstract manner.  I don't think you can presume that advanced mech tech is going to plummet in cost without also assuming that dropships and jumpships will do likewise.  That's why I think there's always a market for a basic mech with one cool piece of technology on it.

Take an old tech Spider and put an ECM suite or a C3 Slave on it.  It's super cheap, and it gives your unit some very mobile electronics.  Can the enemy kill it with all his targeting computer, clan pulse lasers, DNI cockpit mechs?  Sure.  But that means he's not shooting at your damage dealers.  You want your light mechs to be just hard enough to kill that your enemy decides it's not worth his time this turn (and the turn after that, and the one after that, etc). 

[Colt Ward]

We can surmise that XXL engines, XL Gyros, and the advanced armors have gotten cheaper b/c they are showing up with greater frequency on line units rather than specialist experimental designs.  The Wulfen's XXL is not too costly to be sent to the Dragoons as a gift.  The Savage Wolf's XXL is cheap enough its sold open market to mercenaries, who have to pinch pennies compared to Houses or Clans, to be a viable option.  Same for the Savage Wolf, Vulture Mk IV, and others have the Ferro-Lam armor.  Reflective, Stealth and Hardened are even more widespread.

We are never going to get absolute or era c-bill costs again per TPTB- too many headaches for the minimal gain simulating a economy- so all you can do is judge the cost by how widespread the technology is on what are considered common or line units.  While overall they will be more costly than the 3025 Stinger built in the periphery as 'new' the relative cost difference will have decreased.  Your mixing cost & light viability arguments.

Your light skirmisher, which does have a place in a pitched battle, will still be 'cheaper' than a medium built to the same abilities- even if it skips on someting like the XL gyro.  The light is also more likely to survive after taking some damage, b/c while the suggested Reflec or Ferro-Lam armor will let them shrug off one hit, they will be able to leave the battlefield rather than say have a cERPPC  (8 & 12 damage respectively) punch completely through a side torso to kill the XL.

The discussion was not 'do lights have a place' but what is now required for a light to be viable in 3145- the Panther pocket medium mech is no longer going to work very well since its going to get hammered at range.

[Greatclub]

This topic have a design thread somewhere I can't find?

[Wolf72]

This topic have a design thread somewhere I can't find?

You mean the actual designs statted out? I don't think so yet.  I gathered this was more design theory and review of canonical designs.

[Colt Ward]

You mean the actual designs statted out? I don't think so yet.  I gathered this was more design theory and review of canonical designs.

Bingo . . . the 'modern' designs I mentioned were from TRO3145/50- Tiburon, Havoc P6, Gunsmith, and Wulfen- along with older mainstays like the Panther, Wolfhound, Spider, Jenner, Javelin, and Commando for 3025.  I also mentioned some post-Invasion era designs, like the upgraded Wolfhound 2, Dart, Fireball, and Spector.

Also mentioned the idea that to be capable on a Dark age battlefield, the components of a mech must meet a steep curve based on weight- a high requirement for light mechs that tapers off the heavier the design gets b/c it exploits the light's advantage in crits.  The Gunsmith, IIRC is crit packed which is a rare thing for lights and its components are cutting edge- XXL engine, XL gyro, Reflec armor and IIRC ES to machines like the Carronade which uses a XL & ES while mounting Std armor to keep crits free for the big guns.  Or the Atlas III which uses a std fusion engine and std armor with just the structure being advanced.

[Kovax]

Still, it seems too hard to get compared by gain +1 by jump, though.

That +1 by Jump costs you a lot in jump jet tonnage.  If you're going to have your Light 'Mech move 8/12/8, then that's 4 tons tied up in jump jets instead of a bigger engine or other items.  If you can get to 10/15 movement, then you've got your +1 TMM without jumping, and considerably greater mobility in crossing MOST maps.  Yes, jumping for a higher modifier makes sense in some cases where the terrain is highly restrictive, but not in others, because your jump speed is generally the same as your WALK, not your run, and that's often a +1 difference without paying for the jump jets or eating the +3 targeting penalty instead of +2 for running.  If you're paying for IJJ or a partial wing, that's even more of your scarce tonnage tied up for a highly situational advantage at the expense of reducing your capability in other circumstances.

Basically, there's a significant niche role for fast ground-bound 'Mechs as well as one for fast jumpers, and Lights are cheap enough to afford both of those specialists instead of a Medium that will half-ass both roles.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

That +1 by Jump costs you a lot in jump jet tonnage.  If you're going to have your Light 'Mech move 8/12/8, then that's 4 tons tied up in jump jets instead of a bigger engine or other items.  If you can get to 10/15 movement, then you've got your +1 TMM without jumping, and considerably greater mobility in crossing MOST maps.  Yes, jumping for a higher modifier makes sense in some cases where the terrain is highly restrictive, but not in others, because your jump speed is generally the same as your WALK, not your run, and that's often a +1 difference without paying for the jump jets or eating the +3 targeting penalty instead of +2 for running.  If you're paying for IJJ or a partial wing, that's even more of your scarce tonnage tied up for a highly situational advantage at the expense of reducing your capability in other circumstances.

Basically, there's a significant niche role for fast ground-bound 'Mechs as well as one for fast jumpers, and Lights are cheap enough to afford both of those specialists instead of a Medium that will half-ass both roles.

Well, Inner Sphere can make a 55 tons mech to have 5/8/10 by using IJJ, Partial Wings, and Compact Gyro and still have 11.5 tons armor and 10.5 spare tons and 19 criticals(mostly arms, for you can only have one remaining criticals on left/right torso and head) to do anything else. Light Engine costs you an another 4 tons but leaves you two more criticals on the torso. For 35 tons, XL Engine still gives you 7 tons of armor and 4.5 spare tonnage. And if you want to use Endo or Endo-Composite Structure you may save more weight. It can't be applied to 30 tons or less lights(it lose too much spare weight and the engine cannot keep all the Double Heat Sink), and 35 tons is not a good weight to gain Walk 10, though.

Although +3 to hit modifier hurts, but that's already a problem of jump, and it is also a benefit as well - you don't need to consider facing and the terrain through the movement. After all not only lights and mediums are consider jumps, but even assaults does even if they bears the penalty. It is true that +3 to hit is bad but it allows to gets the better backstabbing point too.

[Charistoph]

The discussion was not 'do lights have a place' but what is now required for a light to be viable in 3145- the Panther pocket medium mech is no longer going to work very well since its going to get hammered at range.

Yes, and no.  That Panther still has a place in freeing up other, heavier Trooper assets to be deployed elsewhere.  A Panther may not be the best at taking on a Lyran or Ghost Bear scout mech (which it never really was to begin with), but it is perfectly fine against the average pirate, or uprising.

[StoneRhino]

Splitting off of this- (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68959.0)- which was the advantages of light mechs, most of what folks were talking about ended up with the light in later eras not being a design that could be included in line combat.  Most of the discussion covered scouting or rear area raiding for lights post-3050 saying that designs that could compete in the 3025s were unable to do so in the age of pulse lasers, TarComps, and just longer short ranges.  We did get a few post-Invasion designs that were able to fight on the line- Pack Hunters, Hellions, still the Jenner, Spector, some Spider/Venoms, and a few others.  But we still had designs that were slow for lights in 3025- Panthers- or whose speed was fine then but no longer working post-Invasion like the Valkyrie or even Commandos & Wolfhounds. 

I have yet to receive the memo that lights are unable to compete in the post 3025 era. The Panther should not have been included since it couldn't compete as a fast light mech in the 3025 environment, the others are still capable designs.

What I would like to see on a "premium" light mech would be Angel ECM and improved jumpjets. If you really want to get my attention you should have either an SRM launcher with 2 tons of ammo, or MMLx with 3 tons of ammo, which allows me to bring infernos and standard damage to the game. I gotta roast marshmallows and assault mechs, and im all out of marshmallows :))

[Colt Ward]

Never said the Panther was a fast light, but with its armor and a PPC it could stand in as a pocket medium- it could for example give a Hunchback a hard time and could spar with the vaunted Vindicator.  Later in that same sentence I addressed 3025's 'faster' lights who would now be too slow.  When we get mediums & heavies (let alone the Exeuctioner configs) that have 10 MPs, a 6/9 or 7/11 light will be meat for such a design.  If you actually look at more of the post, I said the Havoc (8/12/5) is marginal for the speed with the Gunsmith & Wulfen as better examples.

While I like ECM . . . without advanced rules, Angel ECM is less impressive but would be 'overweight' for most situations.  Your suggestion of IJJ and Infernos also runs into survivability problems- with a 4 gunner you are looking at 8s or 9s (4 gun +3 MM + 1 or 2 TMM) at short range which means you must be at 3 hexes of the target.  Which is also short range for all types of IS large pulse and med X/REL/VS  which means they would need 6s or 7s.  Along with all the other big guns (ERLL, ERPPC, ACs,) or just MLs assaults tend to bring, they can throw enough to get a hit at that shorter range to make it a mission kill if not one outright.