BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Manchu on 03 January 2021, 10:21:26
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Now that WHOEVER is the ilClan (a topic, per mod instruction, not to be discussed outside of this thread (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/hour-of-the-wolf-discussion-spoilers/) for the time being), what does the future hold for the arguable “true ilClan,” namely Star Adder?
On one hand, CSA certainly won’t acknowledge any grandiose claim of the abjured. On the other hand, such a claim can hardly be ignored altogether. As the originator of the Bastion-Aggressor dynamic that replaced the Crusader-Warden politics of the early- to mid-31st century, CSA seems uniquely positioned for destabilization by news of the ilClan claim.
Has enough time passed for those hot-blooded young Aggressors of the 3090s to have risen to places of prominence as decision makers? Will the pent-up Crusader ambitions of Cassius’s era finally burst into a neo-Crusader fervor? Will the Adders engineer a do-over invasion under a pragmatic lessons-learned/the-abjured-should have-listened-to-us rubric?
Or is CSA doomed to narrative irrelevance as a staunch isolationist power?
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What if the Home Clans say:"There is an ilClan now? So what, we are not interested. Good riddance"?
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That is the most likely Bastion response, right? “What do we care what those IS creeps do or say?”
There are two issues with that. First, from an out-of-setting perspective, that answer means CSA and the other Homeworld Clans have nothing to do in the ilClan era and the chances of CGL committing resources to developing the Homeworlds as a parallel franchise are slim-to-none; i.e., the Homeworld Clans become irrelevant for at least an entire era of the game. Second, from an in-universe perspective, the Bastion position was not unchallenged in Homeworld politics, even in 3090. CSA was already raiding the Escorpion Imperio and the other Homeworld clans were embedding Watch ops against it. This Aggressor attitude toward the EI is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump from doing much the same against other abjured clans similarly rebranded as IS states, such as the Raven Alliance, the Ghost Bear Dominion, and the Wolf Empire.
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Well I do not think so.
Given the ego of the new Star League (and its new boss), all Clans must recognize the ilClan. If not they are traitors and must be punished.
That would mean an military expedition to the Homeworlds, a deep space war.
This war could be the limit of the new Star League, they might not be able to defeat the Home Clans.
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You’re right to suggest that certain egos demand nothing less than total submission. But news will reach the Homeworlds about this claim before, probably long before, the supposed ilClan can afford to turn its attention beyond the Inner Sphere. And in the gap between, the Aggressors, and especially the CSA Aggressors, will be faced with the ultimate manifestation of their contempt for the tainted abjured clans and the Spheroid pretensions that tainted them.
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The idea that a mighty Homeclan armada led by 4 Leviathan Prime battleships arrives in Terra system is appealing, is not it?
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At this point, almost nothing could be more appealing.
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No offence to those that want a Homeworld vs Inner Sphere clash but I hope they stay away. Especially since the Scorpion Empire has hardly heard a peep from them in over 60 years, (3090-3150 if I’m wrong please tell me) it stands to reason they are facing challenges rebuilding.
It also creates an opportunity just having the Scorpions and Homeworld during it out with little to know IS supervision. Yes the Scorpions have been sited in the IS but so far we have only heard about Seekers. Let the Homeworlds go and create their own idealistic Clan Society and let the Inner Sphere deal with their own mess.
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At this point, almost nothing could be more appealing.
What if it was led by Kreese Andrew with direct orders to sweep the ilclans leg and put em in a body bag!!
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Let the Homeworlds go and create their own idealistic Clan Society and let the Inner Sphere deal with their own mess.
This amounts to the HWCs becoming irrelevant to BT. Not really acceptable to HWC fans.
The HWCs harassed the EI with (at least) Watch ops throughout its military build-up leading to its conquest of the Hanseatic League in 3140, at which point the newly-minted Scorpion Empire, despite having suffered significant losses in that campaign, had made sufficient gains to project threat against the HWCs. The HWCs, and especially CSA, would certainly (a) know about this and (b) not be content to let it stand.
So if nothing else, the Scorpion Empire and HWCs will almost certainly go to war during the ilClan era, which itself will be further complicated by the former possibly acknowledging the ilClan (and, if so, likely claiming it as an at least theoretical ally) while the latter, whether Bastion or Aggressor, would view that connection with intense hatred.
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I am hoping and guessing that the Scorpion Empire is going to be the tie in to how the Star League and the Homeworlds clans run into each other.
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That is more a question for the Scorpion Empire and the ilClan than for CSA and the other HWCs. The main issue is, will the ilClan call for the consolidation of all the abjured (and perhaps also the HWCs) into itself? (At the very least, in the same way that the Camerons called for the consolidation of all the Spheroid and Peripheral states into the Star League.) And, if so, how will the abjured react? If the Scorpion Empire even theoretically aligns itself as part of the ilClan then the HWCs will be drawn into the prospect of facing an ilClan invasion or preempting such with its own invasion. This line of reasoning is complicated by the fact that CGS is not a member of the Council of Six so how the ilClan views the Scorpion Empire is (to my knowledge) just as ambiguous as how it views the HWCs.
From CSA’s POV, war with the Scorpion Empire is essentially inevitable, regardless of the latter’s relations with the ilClan. The Aggressors are obviously chomping at the bit for war. But considering the potential threat projection of the Scorpion Empire by 3140, even the staunchest Bastion supporters will realize that (a) peace with the Scorpion Empire is impossible considering the WoR ideology of IS taint and, given that, (b) there is no possibility of maintaining Homeworlds isolationism without at least permanently crippling the Scorpion Empire.
Thanks to developments in Bastion-Aggressor politics since 3090, it isn’t clear whether the HWCs would wage unrestrained warfare against the Scorpion Empire or elect to fight them according to Clan custom. What I mean here is, what if the ilClan claim triggers another major reconfiguration of HWC politics? Now, this is a huge, open-ended question, but all I mean in this specific context is, if some significant portion of CGS rejects the ilClan claim, there might be room for a partial reconciliation between the HWCs and CGS, as per Crichell repurposing the Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolf in the wake of the Great Refusal into a Trial of Absorption. From CSA’s traditionally pragmatic POV, if an Annihilation can be thus repurposed then why not an Abjuration?
At this point, it bears keeping in mind the circumstances of CGS’s abjuration. The key proponents were CCC and staunch Bastionists in the other HWCs. As to CCC, there are two important elements: (a) the WoR created a rift between them and CSA and (b) CCC was never fully committed to Bastion politics. As to Bastionists generally, it may be the case that by the 3140-50s, the Aggressors have gained more power and prestige than they had during the 3090s. Furthermore, even despite the consolidation of Bastion leadership at that time, the HWCs did not ruthlessly pursue the Trial of Abjuration against CGS, allowing them on the whole to successfully emigrate to the Periphery. Even at the height of their power, in the wake of the violence of the WoR, the Bastion leadership was not all that secure.
Partially for that reason, I think it is likely that Bastion politics are on the wane in the early 3150s among the HWCs. But, more importantly, as sketched out above, the astropolitical realities of 3140 are reducing the Bastion position to irrelevance. Specifically, the threat of the Scorpion Empire and, more generally, the implications of the ilClan claim mean that even if one wanted to maintain isolationism, some kind of intervention becomes necessary. In other words, the Bastion-Aggressor dichotomy dissolves in favor of the Aggressors. As I said, given the choice of waiting to be attacked by the Scorpion Empire and/or the IS ilClan or seizing the initiative, all true Clansmen must favor the latter.
So what paradigm replaces Bastion-Aggressor? My proposal, given CSA’s dominance among the HWCs, is a Neo-Crusader position drawing on the theories and policies of Cassius N’Buta, a staunch Crusader who argued that only the unified and coordinated might of all the Clans could successfully prosecute Operation REVIVAL. The other Crusaders, lusting after glory for their individual Clans, dismissed his views. On the other side of the Great Refusal and the WoR, CSA Aggressors would likely strongly argue that Cassius had been right all along and that his rivals had only revealed their propensity for taint in opposing him.
But more profoundly, what do Cassius’s ideas really amount to other than the notion that the ilClan is not merely a first-among-equals honorific to be seized by an individual Clan but rather the notion of the Clans working closely together as a single force (i.e., the ilClan) as opposed to more-or-less aligned albeit competitive factions. This is in fact now the same question facing the abjured Clans during the ilClan era and I think their claim to have established the true ilClan by conquest of Terra would perforce trigger this new political paradigm in the Homeworlds, given that from the HWCs’ POV, the abjured have no right to make such a claim.
Within the HWCs, I think there would be broad agreement that the remaining “true Clans” should all cooperate closely to seize the initiative against the Inner Sphere. But there would remain the question of how they should coordinate. Who should be in charge and on what basis? Some would argue that the Grand Council should remain the central organ of Clan politics with the Khan of any “true Clan” able to serve as ilKhan. Others would argue that this structure was not the Founder’s original intent and had only been a practical and temporary compromise in the wake of his sudden death, which compromise unfortunately hardened over time into a permanent institution thanks to the incessant interfactional squabbling among the Clans afterwards. These “ilKhanists” would argue that the failure to centralize authority in one person, as during the Golden Century, was responsible for all the failures of the Political Century onward. Their rivals, the “Conciliarists,” would argue such glory-seeking is exactly the problem that led to those failures.
Now, note that the concept of taint would subtly shift over time, evolving from the WoR-era notion of corrupting contact with the Inner Sphere to a more flexible and insidious notion of corruption that began to set in among the Clans even before Operation REVIVAL, as far back as the aftermath of the Founder’s death. This is the political and philosophical matrix through which an attack against the Scorpion Empire would develop. The Old Guard leadership among the HWCs would favor unrestricted warfare against the Scorpion Empire as just another tainted IS state. The younger Ristars would favor the idea that some elements of CGS remained untainted and thus could be rehabilitated by a Trial of Absorption, which in turn (some would further argue) could lead to their rebirth as a new Clan as per the Clan Jade Wolf scenario (“Clan Star Scorpion”?).
There are at least three other important factors, but I will refrain from discussing them here until the moderators give us clearance to talk about Hour of the Wolf outside of the General Discussion board thread.
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IMHO it might be interesting to know, when Stone might have informed the Home Clans. (If he really did)
Finally shortly before the invasion of Terra begun?
Or earlier?
Nevertheless, the formation of an ilClan is goig to send ripples of new wars/conflicts through the universe of man.
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Do the Homeworld Clans even keep tabs on the IS? From what I remember is that the Star Adders patrol the fringes of Clan space to make sure none of them ever contact the IS again (I think it was past the planet Ghent or so). So the only way to get news about it would be either by collecting information from the Scorpion empire or by sending out scouts (in this way "It's honorable to be tainted for the motherland!") to get any news. The old clans had their amateurish Intelser agency but I somehow can't picture this (with the conlcusion of WoR at least). I am still waiting for a "Clan Wolverine is back bitches and it has WoB in tow!" scenario.
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Do the Homeworld Clans even keep tabs on the IS? From what I remember is that the Star Adders patrol the fringes of Clan space to make sure none of them ever contact the IS again (I think it was past the planet Ghent or so). So the only way to get news about it would be either by collecting information from the Scorpion empire or by sending out scouts (in this way "It's honorable to be tainted for the motherland!") to get any news. The old clans had their amateurish Intelser agency but I somehow can't picture this (with the conlcusion of WoR at least). I am still waiting for a "Clan Wolverine is back bitches and it has WoB in tow!" scenario.
Maybe we get a "Home Clans and Manei Domini Joint Forces and come now with a vengeance" Scenario ;)
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I hope we will see a well planned invasion from the HWC - but that event will not be triggered by any claim from the tainted IS, but will start when the HWC are ready for it.
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Some speculation, given the mutual respect between CSA and CHH during the WoR and their Agreement, what if CHH contacts the Home Clans for helping the magainstg the dezgra ilClan?
So the Home Clans could be brought back into the universe. With a vengeance.
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Well if Clan Star Adder will honor the agreement between Khan cobb and Khan N'Buta then Clan Hells Horses will not be attacked by the Adders. I bet If there will be an invasion from the Homeworld clans the Lions will attack their old comrades. Like "You can deal with your tainted part yourself right?"
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I'm still not convinced that there is a real split between the Horses and Lions. I suspect ongoing contact. This clan just choosed a way to get the best of both sides.
And it will be interesting which side they choose when the fight will be started.
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I'm still not convinced that there is a real split between the Horses and Lions. I suspect ongoing contact. This clan just choosed a way to get the best of both sides.
And it will be interesting which side they choose when the fight will be started.
Besides that, Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile have united. Why shall this be impossible for CHH and CSL?
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The creation of CSL by CSA has largely been seen as part of CSA’s plan to dominate the Grand Council. Maybe the deeper, even more pragmatic point was always to keep a door open to CHH. Could be arranged as a Trial of Absorption.
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In my point of view it was more the preservation of knowledge about conventional warfare and elemental breeding. Every surviving clan have their special focus, but none had tanks and elementals in a way the HH had.
And the Adders understood that a conquest of the IS without conventional forces will fail.
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IMHO the Adderss could have preserved this when they had the absorbed Horses keeping in their Clan. Their main ideas behind creating a new Clan were to have a true ally in the Grand Council and to Show the other Clans CSA is not interested to destroy the other Clans (as the Vipers were up to do).
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A return of the HW Clans would make sense and would make for a great ultimate showdown. Depending on how the WoB is mixed in and how far Clan Wolf has been able to consolidate its powerbase, this could make for some great storytelling and interesting new tech and units.
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I hope that there have been some interesting technological advancements achieved by the Home Clans. Given their quantitative inferiority they need something like that to make the story more exciting and not predictable when they are up the fight the ilClan.
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If CSA can wrangle the rehabilitation of CHH and CGS, including the resources of the respective OZ and Scorpion Empire, that would go a long way to evening the score. There are a couple of other possibilities that can be discussed after the moderators lift the moratorium on discussion of Hour of The Wolf.
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If CSA can wrangle the rehabilitation of CHH and CGS, including the resources of the respective OZ and Scorpion Empire, that would go a long way to evening the score. There are a couple of other possibilities that can be discussed after the moderators lift the moratorium on discussion of Hour of The Wolf.
To my knowledge the Scorpion Empire has severed all ties with their Clan counterparts. Now they are a Periphery realm with some really great tech, slowly expanding and sending out seekers to help with their need for 1st Star League memorabilia. There is too much bad blood between them and the Homeworlds and by 3150 hopefully will be a tough nut to crack.
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To my knowledge the Scorpion Empire has severed all ties with their Clan counterparts. Now they are a Periphery realm with some really great tech, slowly expanding and sending out seekers to help with their need for 1st Star League memorabilia. There is too much bad blood between them and the Homeworlds and by 3150 hopefully will be a tough nut to crack.
As far as we know there has been no contacts between Home Clans and Scorpion Empire for decades.
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Some of the HWCs tried to stir up social tensions within the Imperio with rumors about dissidents descending from the Not Named Clan. CSA raided them outright IIRC, but that will have been quite a while back by 3150. From the HWC side of things, especially for CSA, I think there is room for drawing a distinction between tainted and untainted within CGS. Now, is the Scorpion Empire going to care what the HWCs think? Hm, well, if you really did stop caring, you could hardly still be Clan.
The purported problem with CGS post-WoR was unsanctioned genetic incorporation. But I suspect, from CSA’s POV, the real issue was that CGS had emerged from the WoR almost as strong as CSA. To me, I think this is parallel to what Gaiten explained above regarding CSA’s treatment of CHH: secure a firm ally and distinguish themselves from the bloodcrazed Vipers. In the case of CGS, it was too powerful to become an ally CSA could control, for now. So CSA mollified CCC (who were arguably more mad over losing half a cluster at Hector than CGS’s “taint”) with Abjuration, per the fashion of those times, but also on the whole allowed CGS to simply continue emigrating.
It is not impossible that CSA was already aware by 3078 of CGS’s ambitions regarding Neuva Castile and calculated that abjuring CGS would simply be the most efficient way to consolidate CSA power in the Homeworlds. For their part, it’s hard to imagine CGS being irretrievably offended by this, considering they themselves had already foreseen it to a significant degree. Looked at dispassionately, both CSA and CGS got what they wanted for the time being. Now that time has passed, and new problems are emerging, there should be room for new approaches, too.
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As far as we know there has been no contacts between Home Clans and Scorpion Empire for decades.
OTP:Hanseatic Crusade doesn't mention any contacts, true, but I don't think it need be ruled out entirely. The Homies and Scorpions could have come to a tacit agreement - the Home Clanners would periodically mount small raids upon the Imperio for combat experience, prestige, outlet for younger warriors, etc, and the Scorpions would gain the same in the process. After all, the Scorpions are still Clanners and need worthy opponents - who else would be available between 3090 and 3140?. Since these fights would be on the same scale as 3rd SW-style raids, they wouldn't be important enough to mention in OTP:Hanseatic Crusade. Out-of-universe, of course, I suspect TPTB don't want to write themselves into a corner re the Home Clans until they're ready to bring them back.
As to Star Adder contacts within the present-day Inner Sphere, I wouldn't mind that either. One of my fan theories is that the Adders, with the consent of the Cobras, allowed the Stone Lions to maintain back channels with their Spheroid kin - something the Horses kept from the Council of Six (and why it doesn't show up in the Diamond Shark's Wars of Reaving report). The Adders have always been one of the more pragmatic Clans, enough IMHO to be flexible on dealing with 'tainted' Clanners in the Imperio or Inner Sphere if it furthers their long-term goal of restoring the League with themselves in charge.
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In a idea what the Home Clans might become I thought of only one new super Clan. Certain warrior orders were representing the old Clans, but they were united.
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Wasn't it CSA that advocating using all the Clans in Operation Revival? With CSA as the leaders/coordinators. IIRC, it might make sense that they present a united single Clan front with unique identities within the whole.
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It would be clever of the new ilKhan if he might invite the Home Clans to the Inner Sphere to conquer their own territories.
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It would be clever of the new ilKhan if he might invite the Home Clans to the Inner Sphere to conquer their own territories.
and they would accept with their first conquest being Terra itself to remove the taint that is Clan Wolf.
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It would be clever of the new ilKhan if he might invite the Home Clans to the Inner Sphere to conquer their own territories.
And why would the Homeclans listen to the tainted and abjured Clans? I bet the only thing they want to trade are live Gauss rifle shots and PPC bolts
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And why would the Homeclans listen to the tainted and abjured Clans? I bet the only thing they want to trade are live Gauss rifle shots and PPC bolts
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Maybe they (or at least one of them (Coyotes?)) might be impressed by the feat the ilClan did achieve. And finally they might never have given up the idea of having their Empire in the Inner Sphere.
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Wasn't it CSA that advocating using all the Clans in Operation Revival? With CSA as the leaders/coordinators. IIRC, it might make sense that they present a united single Clan front with unique identities within the whole.
That’s correct, Cassius N’Buta envisioned an invasion force comprising all Clans. See the first page of this thread for extensive discussion of this point and how it could impact the currentsituation.
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What do you think, might there be interClan unit(s) in the Homeworlds now, unit(s) recruited from all Clans, somewhat like an Ebon Guard Galaxy?
Something like that could improve the cohesion between the different Clans.
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I would prefer specialization of each clan - on the other hand it is competition that makes them better. So per the clans way they should stay with inter clan competition and so cooperation is difficult.
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I would prefer specialization of each clan - on the other hand it is competition that makes them better. So per the clans way they should stay with inter clan competition and so cooperation is difficult.
Agreed, I will believe it when I see it. If you are talking about creating a non-canon unit (Ebon Guard Galaxy?
) with a unique colour scheme from the clans seeing clan mechs with a black stripe would look cool.
Competition is to ingrained in the Clans psyche to even consider it. Historically every time there is call for unity in the Clans there is further separation soon after. Herding cats would be simpler than trying to get three or more Clans to work together.
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Thesis: Disappointed Jade Falcon Hazen fans and other Clanners with a certain disdain for Clan Wolf are now much more likely to root for Clan Star Adder/Clan whatever the HW Clans have morphed into to finally awake from their hibernation and make their long-awaited move to the Inner Sphere to kick some ilClan butt. Agree? ^-^
Personally, I always had a soft spot for Clan Star Adder and Cloud Cobra and can't wait for them to enter the grand stage of BT narration again.
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It could be that the HomeClans might be the true Clan alternative for many of those Clanner who do not accept the ilClan and its foulblood ilKhan.
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You mean some kind of an exodus of "true" clansmen to the homeworlds to ask for surkai? If they do it right a token Trial of Refusal could be done to undo the abjuration. They could proof their honor by spearheading the new invasion and taking the most brutal slugfests.
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You mean some kind of an exodus of "true" clansmen to the homeworlds to ask for surkai? If they do it right a token Trial of Refusal could be done to undo the abjuration. They could proof their honor by spearheading the new invasion and taking the most brutal slugfests.
Depending on who guards the Exodus road that might result into Clanners turned into dust by warship fire. Though if the Star Adders are still as pragmatic as before they might interrogate those "returnees" to gather better intelligence since right now they do everything to stop contct from the IS with Clan space.
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What do you think, might there be interClan unit(s) in the Homeworlds now, unit(s) recruited from all Clans, somewhat like an Ebon Guard Galaxy?
Ebon Keshik performs (performed?) a very specific task that the Clans have (or are supposed to have) a universal interest in taking extremely seriously ... which they have proven not to, like most things. In the wake of the WoR, it’s possible that Ebon Keshik has been expanded beyond being an Elemental-only formation as an extension of the surviving HWCs’ rededication to the Clan eugenics program. If so, it could serve as a model for Cassius’s thesis of the Clans coordinating their respective strengths. It could also be a military arm of the Grand Council, something CSA would probably be amenable to suggesting given its dominance of that body/the role of ilKhan. You mean some kind of an exodus of "true" clansmen to the homeworlds to ask for surkai? If they do it right a token Trial of Refusal could be done to undo the abjuration. They could proof their honor by spearheading the new invasion and taking the most brutal slugfests.
This is probably CSA’s long game in re: CHH. As to malcontents from other Clans, I think it depends on how things go with CHH and CGS.
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Maybe the Homeclans did form some new Clans to improve their genetic diversity (they could reactivate more bloodnames and those could have get the maximum bbloodcount number) and have more sparring partners they can train against and declare any Trials to hone their skills.
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The Home Clans decided that any 'Mechs associated with the IS Clans would stop being used right? So are we saying that basically all the original Clan 'Mechs from 3050 and probably 3058 would only show up in IS Clan forces now, and the Home Clans would have all new stuff in any future sourcebook or whatever?
I only wonder because with the new RecGuides essentially giving facelifts to all the old Clan Mechs (as seen in the Kickstarter), that means any "classic" Mechs that "disappeared from the IS Clans" after the Jihad will basically be retconned into being IS only now, right?
Mechs like the Kingfisher and Warhawk were highly associated with the Falcons, Bears and Jaguars...both were considered only available to the Home Clans after WoR
(We've already seen in the RecGuides that the Bears still make the Viper in the IS despite the plant being destroyed in the Jihad...So does this mean the Viper was abandoned in the Homeworlds?)
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The Wars of Reaving Supplemental has a section titled "Discarded Tools of War". This gives a snapshot of Mechs no longer in use in the homeworlds as of 3090 (I think that's the in-universe date for WoR:S). In the Ice Ferret's entry it mentions that the Viper has taken over wherever the remaining Clans used Ice Ferrets.
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The Wars of Reaving Supplemental has a section titled "Discarded Tools of War". This gives a snapshot of Mechs no longer in use in the homeworlds as of 3090 (I think that's the in-universe date for WoR:S). In the Ice Ferret's entry it mentions that the Viper has taken over wherever the remaining Clans used Ice Ferrets.
Ok, so that's by 3090...given it's 3150 in the " current" timeline now, do you think it will go further? Like the Viper itself will be replaced, etc... until all the 3050, 3055 and 3058 Mechs are gone?
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Ok, so that's by 3090...given it's 3150 in the " current" timeline now, do you think it will go further? Like the Viper itself will be replaced, etc... until all the 3050, 3055 and 3058 Mechs are gone?
Due to their losses I would imagine only a few new mechs were being designed. Most of the discarded is more due to the factories destroyed. Only two or three were considered to be “tainted”. Depending on when (or if) the Clans try to take back Terra the only difference may be in their tactics rather than their Battlemechs.
It should be noted they did grab some of the Society’s tech so whe they are reintroduced they may have new toys to play with.
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In WoR Supplemental Discarded Tools of War sidebox there are 16 OmniMech designs reported as not being in production anymore in 3090.
Given the vast number of Mech designs the Homeworlds industries were capable of producing this quite a small number.
There is reported that the HomeClans have producing new Mechs in great numbers, mothballing many to be prepared for a new invasion.
Nevertheless I hope for technological advancement that the Home Clans do field completely new designs, there have not to be many, 15-20 would be suitable.
Further this low number would help the get the logistic run smoothly.
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Considering the HW Clans were using the Pariah despite its even worse reputation and connection to the Society. I think most IS Clan designs in the Homeworlds are safe. I could see the HW Clans doing something similar to the Society Mech designs as the Republic did with WoB Celestial designs with their Uraeus and Kheper.
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so their talk about getting rid of 'Mechs associated with the IS Clans was probably just that, all talk...
probably started with the likes of the Ice Ferret, then when they could only replace it with the Viper (another Mech associated with an IC Clan), they just got pragmatic about it and said "whatever"
after re-reading WoR:Supplemental, it seems to me more like the Mechs they couldn't make anymore in the Homeworlds, they said "bah, IS taint!" and wrote them off
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Most of the TRO3050 omnimechs were in use by all clans and had multiple factories. Many of them not developed by the later IS clans. It is hard to mark those designs as tainted as the were used by everyone.
There are other designs more specific to tainted clans. While the box in WoR Sup only gives us a small hint what factories are gone, i easily see more changes in the later years to adapt production lines. The Burrock isn't mentioned in the box, but i can't see it going on. Just as an example.
The original idea of the TRO3050 had 16 omnis for every mission. Easily reconfiguered for every situation. Using similar parts. Fast repairs etc.
I would be happy this idea would be picked again for the HW clans. Let them field different configs by taste and tactical doctrin of every clan, but limit the number of chassis. This would be a great step forward to streamline supply lines and speed up rebuilding processes.
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so their talk about getting rid of 'Mechs associated with the IS Clans was probably just that, all talk...
probably started with the likes of the Ice Ferret, then when they could only replace it with the Viper (another Mech associated with an IC Clan), they just got pragmatic about it and said "whatever"
after re-reading WoR:Supplemental, it seems to me more like the Mechs they couldn't make anymore in the Homeworlds, they said "bah, IS taint!" and wrote them off
I imagine the “tainted” mechs will be either in storage, used in second-line or solhama units. I am curious how much they have embraced Protomech since the Ravens and CHH are the only ones outside the Homeworld Clans experimenting with them.
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As far as i know the Adders were not great fans of Protomechs. They tried them, but didn't expand the program. On the other side we have the Stone Lions, Cloud Cobras and Coyote that have used them in numbers.
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As far as i know the Adders were not great fans of Protomechs. They tried them, but didn't expand the program. On the other side we have the Stone Lions, Cloud Cobras and Coyote that have used them in numbers.
I think the Cloud Cobras might be the only Clan to take any serious effort into Protomechs. Frist of all they are an aerospace clan so there should be enough genetic material for Protopilots. Secondly they also gained the Protomech phenotype that the Spirits developed. I somehow doubt the Coyotes will restart Protos since they might be too deeply asociated with the rebellious society. The Lions might use them too given their approach to comabt though probably not in the scope other Clans did.
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In WoR, page 194 are (among others) the ProtoMech bloodnames displayed. Clan Star Adder does have two exclusive (so far).
Given Clan Star Adder`s pragmatic combined all-arms methodic I think the Star Adders will field Protomechs in reasonable numbers, hardly only-Protomech Units as other Home Clans might do. I think the Adders might rather field Protomechs of the Ultra-Heavy type (larger than 9tons) and here the Standard, quad and WiGe types.
These have been hardly shown their true potential yet.
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Given Clan Star Adder`s pragmatic combined all-arms methodic I think the Star Adders will field Protomechs in reasonable numbers, hardly only-Protomech Units as other Home Clans might do. I think the Adders might rather field Protomechs of the Ultra-Heavy type (larger than 9tons) and here the Standard, quad and WiGe types.
These have been hardly shown their true potential yet.
Indeed. With so many worlds and resources lost the Home Clans may have compensated by bolstering R&D into better Protomechs. Enough to be their ace in the hole should the ilClan come calling.
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Proto-LAMs? :D
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Proto-LAMs? :D
Nah, rather Omni-Protos ^-^
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I would like to have the new HomeClans Mechs being equipped with Interface Cockpits (or with a Home Clan equivalent).
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What do you think, will the Home Clans begin a resettlement of the lost planets and a new exploration for new planets for settlements and new sources of raw material?
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Maybe. They need to concentrate on their interactions with the Inner Sphere. Space colony games are fine, but really I just want reasons to crash robots unto guns, missiles, and lasers.
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I got the impression many of the old worlds were nearly depleted. In that case it would be wasteful to resettle them just to make a statement. They definitely will salvage everything useful and move on to worlds or asteroids with better ressources.
We have seen some examples that whole clans have relocated everything. It could be funny to see the homeworlds wandering around the IS to find new home in a totally different direction. And when the first explorers from the IS come to the old homeworlds find them abandoned.
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Space roaming Clans like the steppe nomads of old have something very appealing, IMHO :)
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I got the impression many of the old worlds were nearly depleted. In that case it would be wasteful to resettle them just to make a statement. They definitely will salvage everything useful and move on to worlds or asteroids with better ressources.
We have seen some examples that whole clans have relocated everything. It could be funny to see the homeworlds wandering around the IS to find new home in a totally different direction. And when the first explorers from the IS come to the old homeworlds find them abandoned.
If we take the Star map of the WoR seriously then the Kerensky Cluster lost a lot of worlds to the whole Clan civil war. Even two Pentagon worlds (one of those was Eden, the "best" planet of the five) dropped of the map. At the end of the WoR the Clans were rebulilding (and probably restoring those planets deemed viable). I can imagine that they send scouting fleets in the other direction to find new systems (as you said their resource base must be quiet low at this point). The Spirits stumbled upon the Colleen system in 3067 which isn't far of from the Cluster so I would assume there must be more worlds out in the void
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It’s a weird conceit that Clan Space is so resource-poor.
I think cultural factors are a much more credible driver, when it comes to HWC/IS interaction, than economics.
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The Spirits stumbled upon the Colleen system in 3067 which isn't far of from the Cluster so I would assume there must be more worlds out in the void
A whole other cluster, according to the Kapteyn universe timeline :)
Seriously, though, I wouldn't rule out other suitable worlds nearby either. Hell, even just having more breathing room in the Kerensky Cluster could be helpful for the Home Clans in exceeding their pre-Reaving strength by 3150.
It’s a weird conceit that Clan Space is so resource-poor.
I think cultural factors are a much more credible driver, when it comes to HWC/IS interaction, than economics.
Cultural factors are a part of it, but I think resource scarcity may be canon as well. The section on protomechs in TRO:3060 describes how they were first developed by Jaguar scientists in response to forecasts of ore scarcity.
That said, large swathes of the Clan homeworlds were uninhabited even before the Wars of Reaving. It could be that with a single hegemonic power and only four Clans in total - rather than around 17 competitors - the Home Clans might actually have enjoyed a population and resource boom from 3090 onward.
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It’s a weird conceit that Clan Space is so resource-poor.
I think cultural factors are a much more credible driver, when it comes to HWC/IS interaction, than economics.
What I read so far is that the planets in the Kerensky Cluster are not really poor in terms of resources (though not particular rich either) but that they are quiet hostile to humans. Just look at the Pentagon worlds. The most prolific was the "Curse of Eden" but there were also other viruses and even animals that were deadly. The WoR stated that only York and Vinton were able to sustain themselves to 100%. And guess which planets got destroyed during the WoR (among others)? The Clans themselves think that Kerensky choose those worlds to test his children. Though in reality he probably just settled there because the entire fleet was on the brink of revolution
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So the three possible (and non-mutually exclusive) reasons Clan Space planets suck are:
(1) they are resource-poor
(2) they are unsuitable for human habitation
(3) they are underdeveloped thanks to the Clans fighting one another
The first two reasons make little sense to me, at least without the third reason to contextualize them. I would guess Clan Space is not particularly bereft of resources, just that the resources available may not be easily accessible to governing structures devoted so narrowly to militarism and constantly distracted by armed conflict. Similarly, worlds that are at all suitable for human habitation can be terraformed to be even more suitable, if the social structures in place see that as a worthwhile and affordable goal.
In other words, Clan Space is probably fine and it is the Clans themselves which have been the limiting factor. But who better to redress that problem than the most pragmatically-minded Clan of all? Under the leadership of CSA, the HWC could well enter a new golden age where limited conflict among the surviving Clans allows more room for creating and leveraging social structures necessary to make the most of Clan Space.
And what would wealthy, bored HWCs eventually turn their attention toward?
...
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In other words, Clan Space is probably fine and it is the Clans themselves which have been the limiting factor. But who better to redress that problem than the most pragmatically-minded Clan of all? Under the leadership of CSA, the HWC could well enter a new golden age where limited conflict among the surviving Clans allows more room for creating and leveraging social structures necessary to make the most of Clan Space.
And what would wealthy, bored HWCs eventually turn their attention toward?
We can only hope. The good news is TPTB haven't given up on the HWC, they're just waiting until they can give them a suitable debut back into the setting.
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The WoR also has an interesting point: most Clan worlds have large traces of untouched lands. Life on Clan planets usually center around cities and firebases with the rest left alone except as sites for combat trials. Usually the Clans fight a trial in this part so that their prize (for example a mine or factory) does not get damaged. During the build up to the WoR this facet changed though that they didn't fought outside of their prize but often within. Which then made the battle moot since the prize was often damaged in a way to spite the victor.
I guess the reason being for this lifestyle is the way of Nicolas Kerensky who created a very spartan and in a way socialistic society. Capitalism is absent from Clan society (except the Diamond Sharks) so consumer goods or the will to extract resources at any cost is not there. If it is more efficient to trial for a mine of your neighbour then to build a new one then who cares about the large tract of land that is not touched? Seems a little like the Outworlds Alliance doesn't it? The pre 3050 Alliance had a lot of abundant planets but they refused to use them because it was against their beliefs.
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So the three possible (and non-mutually exclusive) reasons Clan Space planets suck are:
(1) they are resource-poor
(2) they are unsuitable for human habitation
(3) they are underdeveloped thanks to the Clans fighting one another
I would add a fourth as well, although this is supported only in short form by the Burdock absorption it makes sense for all clans. The Merchants, Scientist, or Dark caste could be managing larger operations with off the book resources while lying to their Warriors. Without verification or auditing by the Watch their leaders are simply unable to comprehend what is going on.
We are led to believe that Dark Caste live in utter poverty but these are from IC sources and the truth could be different. The Society did manage to almost ruin the whole civilization despite not having much time to prepare so clearly there are some off the book resources of note.
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Some of Clan worlds were hard to live on. I can’t remember which one but wasn’t there a planet that had two times the gravity of earth. Some could argue that it created stronger people but it also was a lot more hostile considering a simple injury could make you invalid or dead.
I would add a fourth as well, although this is supported only in short form by the Burdock absorption it makes sense for all clans. The Merchants, Scientist, or Dark caste could be managing larger operations with off the book resources while lying to their Warriors. Without verification or auditing by the Watch their leaders are simply unable to comprehend what is going on.
We are led to believe that Dark Caste live in utter poverty but these are from IC sources and the truth could be different. The Society did manage to almost ruin the whole civilization despite not having much time to prepare so clearly there are some off the book resources of note.
Fasanomics is hard to comprehend but I always looked at the Homeworld Clans as a very fragile ecosystem. I bet good money some of these Dark Caste sites were ignored due to the limited infrastructure of the Clans in a non military capacity.
Look at the clans in the IS all the success stories include how they had to adapt an change to become stronger. I find it hard to count the Jade Falcons or the Wolves because I always felt they had plot armour to protect them.
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Fasanomics is hard to comprehend but I always looked at the Homeworld Clans as a very fragile ecosystem. I bet good money some of these Dark Caste sites were ignored due to the limited infrastructure of the Clans in a non military capacity.
Look at the clans in the IS all the success stories include how they had to adapt an change to become stronger. I find it hard to count the Jade Falcons or the Wolves because I always felt they had plot armour to protect them.
The WoR stated that the clan system was a precision machine that basically never stopped. The example that was given went like this: Clan A wins a mine from Clan B. Clan B now must weigh if either to build a new mine or trial another Clan. And so on and so on. This requires a steady stream of information via HPG's. And no Clan overproduces (except the Sharks who produce enough to bargain with others). The Invader Clans have the advantage that thy can extratct ressources from occupied planets that have established industries (though upgrading was a painful process and the Wolves even let those sites rot). and as the WoR showed take away the HPG and this system collapses. Just like the Dark Age only on a smaller scale
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You may remember that the Clans never intended to stay for long on the Worlds of the Kerensky Cluster. They were supposed to return to the Inner Sphere.
This means they rather exploited than developed these worlds, simply more scratching the resources for immediate use than having a sustainable economy. This had made them them very vulnerable during the WoR, either.
This could have been changed in the post-WoR era.
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You may remember that the Clans never intended to stay for long on the Worlds of the Kerensky Cluster. They were supposed to return to the Inner Sphere.
This means they rather exploited than developed these worlds, simply more scratching the resources for immediate use than having a sustainable economy. This had made them them very vulnerable during the WoR, either.
This could have been changed in the post-WoR era.
Good point. And hostile worlds are challenges for the people who grow stronger - at least the weak are solved on that way. Any attempt to make those worlds friendlier would let to a weak next generation.
And we shouldn't ignore that the way of combat in the clan worlds is much more ressource intense than we might believe. We always hear that they bid to reduce ressource costs. But nevertheless in the constant life action fire they destroy countless mechs each and every day. Yes, the IS know large scale combat - but the IS also have periods of peace. There is no peace for the clans. So what they generate on limited resources is destroyed as soon as possible.
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Good point. And hostile worlds are challenges for the people who grow stronger - at least the weak are solved on that way. Any attempt to make those worlds friendlier would let to a weak next generation.
And we shouldn't ignore that the way of combat in the clan worlds is much more ressource intense than we might believe. We always hear that they bid to reduce ressource costs. But nevertheless in the constant life action fire they destroy countless mechs each and every day. Yes, the IS know large scale combat - but the IS also have periods of peace. There is no peace for the clans. So what they generate on limited resources is destroyed as soon as possible.
The thing is though that the Clans forgot the concept of "total war". If they fight a trial they get what they want intact (well until the IS forced them to stay in their corner). I think i stated it earlier: in a way it's von Clausewitz "War is the continuation of politics by other means" Yes the Clans loose material in their small trials but they never destroy their base to produce more. The Is however..well SW 1 and 2 speak for themselves don't they? Not to mention the SLDF (the basic predessor of the Clans) was the same. Yes they fought in the constraints of the Ares Convention but that did not mean they wouldn't use nukes. Heck every soldier was basically trained to use a nuke if need be.
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How soon do you think the Homeworld bloc is going to get a passing mention as a we're still here update?
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How soon do you think the Homeworld bloc is going to get a passing mention as a we're still here update?
When ilKhan Ward sends a note to them, informing them about Clan Wolf is ilClan and demanding that they must bow down.
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I don't see the Adders bowing to the wolves.
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I doubt the remaining Homeworld clans wnat anything to do with the Is Clans. They were all abjured and are basically "unworthy" Though the Adders might send back a reply:"Hey cool. Can we have the Pride back please?
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Even Pre WOR do you all think the Adders had detailed take down plans for each of the other clans?
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Even Pre WOR do you all think the Adders had detailed take down plans for each of the other clans?
That's an interesting thought! Puts me in mind of Batman and the Justice League. I can see that being likely.
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Even Pre WOR do you all think the Adders had detailed take down plans for each of the other clans?
I have to think they might have even planned a unique mustache-twirling and sound effect for taking down the other Clans ;)
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Even Pre WOR do you all think the Adders had detailed take down plans for each of the other clans?
I think woR hinted at the Star Adders planning to grab the power in Clan space by using the Vipers as a bludgeon against the stronger Clans. Maybe they saw how stretched the Invader Clans were (notable exception the Ghost Bears). though I dounbt they saw the Reaving Calls coming. I am just waiting for the reveal that the Adders destroyed the HPG net (as unlikely as it seems)
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If there has been a closer cooperation among the Home Clans and maybe even the forming of a new super Clan or Clan confederacy, I think, the "old" Clans could be then some kind of academies for training new Warriors.
Star Adders for Battlemechs pilots and Warships Crews.
Cloud Cobras for aerospace fighter pilots and Protomech pilots.
Stone Lions for vehicle crews, battle armor and standard infantry.
Coyote for dropship crews and Battlemech pilots.
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So now that it has been over half a year since HotW came out, I suppose it’s probably safe to finally discuss whether disaffected members of abjured Clans could be welcomed back by the HWC.
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If the were smart, they'd take all comers. But I don't think that's going to happen, in all honesty.
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CSA is known for being practical. I’d say if any clan had a chance of doing the smart thing at this point, it would be CSA.
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They were also at the forefront of anti-Tainted zealotry so it could go either way.
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CSA seemed to buy hard into the Reaving but also did extremely well out of it — coincidence? Or another example of CSA practicality?
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Zealots in terms of ideology but with practical execution, I'd say.
The dealings with the Horses are a good example of both: they were prepared to compromise enough to work with the Horses to crush the Burrock force, but they kept the Horses, now an IS Clan, very much at arm's length. The Adder Warriors who participated were considered Tainted even by that trivial contact with the IS (as in literally just setting foot on a single planet, lol) and they were basically cast out of the Clan to be absorbed by the Horses.
In terms of the WoR as a whole, the Adders were opportunistic in the years leading up to it. As part of the Snake Alliance they went all in on the Ravens to grab weakly defended enclaves but sat the Shark campaign out because the Sharks were pretty strong. As a result they had a mostly fresh touman and large amount of territory when everything turned to chaos in 3072. Being strong and having proper leadership (unlike say the Mandrills or the left behind Hellion and Horse garrisons) meant the Adders were in the best position to weather the storm out of all the Clans. Nobody really came out of the Wars or Reaving ahead, they all took huge casualties and had whole planets depopulated, but the Adders did the least badly of the surviving Homeworld Clans by a long way.
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They were also at the forefront of anti-Tainted zealotry so it could go either way.
CSA seemed to buy hard into the Reaving but also did extremely well out of it — coincidence? Or another example of CSA practicality?
During the Wars of Reaving itself I'd say practicality, or maybe a great practice of doublethinking themselves into believing and not believing in it depending on a given situation. They let the true zealots in Clan Steel Viper lead the charge and spearhead the more controversial initiatives, and then the tamer-seeming Adders were able to build off that their position of dominance.
Post-WOR, it seems with the rise of the Aggressors that the younger generation were truly buying into the 'Taint' nonsense, enough that their elders got worried.
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Do we have a full list of what warships from clan burrock were claimed after the absorption war?
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No.
IIRC 13 warships were claimed, but which exactly we do not know.
Known is the Constantineau (Liberator-class). We will have to wait till Brush Wars: Absorption War will be published,
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No.
IIRC 13 warships were claimed, but which exactly we do not know.
Known is the Constantineau (Liberator-class). We will have to wait till Brush Wars: Absorption War will be published,
Nice! Do we have an ETA on the absorption book?
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No, so far a publication date not yet been communicated.
BTW if I can make an educated guess, I think the Lola III destroyer Yodan might have been an Clan Burrock vessel. This might explain how easy the "Dark Burrocks" could captured this vessel in the WoR.
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Known is the Constantineau (Liberator-class). We will have to wait till Brush Wars: Absorption War will be published,
The what? Where was this announced?
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The what? Where was this announced?
It's on the Coming Releases page: https://bg.battletech.com/books/upcoming-releases/
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It's on the Coming Releases page: https://bg.battletech.com/books/upcoming-releases/
I am
Hyped!
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I look really forward to.
If I might dream, a sourcebook like Battle of Tukkayyid about the whole Burrock-Blood Spirit and Star Adder-Blood Spirit conflict would be fantastic,
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I look really forward to.
If I might dream, a sourcebook like Battle of Tukkayyid about the whole Burrock-Blood Spirit and Star Adder-Blood Spirit conflict would be fantastic,
Make it so! I am really interested in learning more about the lost ships of the spirit fleet and their beta galaxy
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It's on the Coming Releases page: https://bg.battletech.com/books/upcoming-releases/
Holy damn. Never would I have thought they'd give that conflict the sourcebook treatment. Has there been any movement on this product (considering some the 'upcoming releases' on that page have in fact, released, a while ago)? Man, this gives me new hope they'll revisit Luthien and Op. Dragonslayer.
I too am very excited. More info on the fallen Spirit Galaxies, the Burrocks, and the battles themselves that changed the Toumans of all three participating Clans... I can't wait!
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Getting more info about the grand invasion of the Spirit Homeworld of York with its battles in space and on ground ... this would make some gret sories and battles ... of which Battletech has been made.
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Here is a great Star Adder Mech drawning by Matt Plog:
https://www.deviantart.com/mattplog/art/Comm-New-Snake-Skin-932183927
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Here is a great Star Adder Mech drawning by Matt Plog:
https://www.deviantart.com/mattplog/art/Comm-New-Snake-Skin-932183927
That's actually one of my designs I had Matt do for the Aries TRO!
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It's on the Coming Releases page: https://bg.battletech.com/books/upcoming-releases/
it also notes that the series was intended to get it's first release in 2022, it's 2023 now so... best to temper that hype.
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Here is a great Star Adder Mech drawning by Matt Plog:
https://www.deviantart.com/mattplog/art/Comm-New-Snake-Skin-932183927
That's actually one of my designs I had Matt do for the Aries TRO!
That's a very sleek design, but man do I love the color placement in that pic, the small red highlights that don't contrast too sharply against the Adder blue/black combo. I've had trouble with 'too much red' painting the Gamma scheme before, and that makes me want to give it another attempt.
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That's a very sleek design, but man do I love the color placement in that pic, the small red highlights that don't contrast too sharply against the Adder blue/black combo. I've had trouble with 'too much red' painting the Gamma scheme before, and that makes me want to give it another attempt.
Yeah I agree...Matt does do a great job of that one!
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That's actually one of my designs I had Matt do for the Aries TRO!
And it is a great efficient heavy OmniMech :thumbsup:
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it also notes that the series was intended to get it's first release in 2022, it's 2023 now so... best to temper that hype.
But never forget to keep the fire burn ;)
Probably they have had to postpone the new Brush Wars serie due other more important projects and missing manpower.
Wonder who is going to write the Burrock Absorption. Cubby? Would like to factcheck this, as in good old times.
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Cubby also said a few months back that the Brush Wars series would be acconpanied by other, smaller releases on the same conflict, like Touring the Stars or Spotlight on. Similar to how Hanseatic Crusade was supported.
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Cubby also said a few months back that the Brush Wars series would be acconpanied by other, smaller releases on the same conflict, like Touring the Stars or Spotlight on. Similar to how Hanseatic Crusade was supported.
A Touring the Stars: York, Spotlight on Blood Spirit Alpha Galaxy, Spotlight on Adder Quasar Keshik would be great add-ons.
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Another masterpiece of Matt Plog:
https://www.deviantart.com/mattplog/art/Comm-Bad-Adder-933906718
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it also notes that the series was intended to get it's first release in 2022, it's 2023 now so... best to temper that hype.
It's still in active development.
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A Touring the Stars: York, Spotlight on Blood Spirit Alpha Galaxy, Spotlight on Adder Quasar Keshik would be great add-ons.
I have to check my production schedule, but IIRC it's going to be two TtS and four SOs to accompany the Brush Wars product. Of course, don't hold me to it. I'd have to confirm and even then, don't hold me to it.
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I have to check my production schedule, but IIRC it's going to be two TtS and four SOs to accompany the Brush Wars product. Of course, don't hold me to it. I'd have to confirm and even then, don't hold me to it.
This would be simply great :thumbsup:
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What do you think, how did the Burrock adoptees change their new Clan?
Only militarily? Due inclusion of more light and medium fast Mechs. And more battle armour.
Social? As far as we know the Adders did not get more lazy and liberal as the Burrocks were.
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lazy and liberal
Interesting word choice.
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What do you think, how did the Burrock adoptees change their new Clan?
Only militarily? Due inclusion of more light and medium fast Mechs. And more battle armour.
Social? As far as we know the Adders did not get more lazy and liberal as the Burrocks were.
There's different examples. In "The Warrior's Way" in FM:Crusader Clans, pg 117 it says in many areas, the Burrock additions began to soften the rough edges of the Adder's personality.
- The Adders were very strict adherents to zell, even against dezgra opponents, now units with former Burrocks (FBs) are less strict
- The Adders with more FBs are beginning to adopt and successfully use more lightening-fast combat styles similar to other clans
- The addition of FBs opened up more schools of thought among the warriors.
- Among the units employed, the addition of FB forces brought more fast medium & light scout Omnis like the Mist Lynx and Viper.
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Taking the best of two Clans and getting better.
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Taking the best of two Clans and getting better.
Until one of those clans pops out of your chest like in Aliens and tries to run off on its own with your enemies.
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Until one of those clans pops out of your chest like in Aliens and tries to run off on its own with your enemies.
Indeed.
This is the problem if you are believe that others are as honorbound as you. They had to pay a horrible price in lifes and material for this.
Given how ruthless the Adders did pursue and annihilate both Dark Burrocks and Dark Caste, the whole Burrock rebellion was very bad advised.
For Upsilon Galaxy (which was mostly made of the most hardcore ex Burrocks) it would have been a better choice to go AWOL and then move into the Inner Sphere (or near Periphery).
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For a game session I formed a Binary for Upsilon Galaxy (before they went AWOL).
It was Trial of Possession against Clan Wolf in the Periphery:
Striker Star:
Huntsman
Griffin IIC
Jenner IIC
Conjurer
Great Wyrm
Battle Star:
Linebacker
Burrock
Mad Dog
Lancelot C 2
Fox (Clantech)
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Nice! Hope it went well. The ordering part of my brain wants to swap the Great Wyrm and the Huntsman out of your Striker Star in exchange for the Linebacker and/or Lancelot and/or the Fox in order to bump up the overall speed of the Strikers to 6/9 without affecting the Battle Star's own 5/8 speed. It spreads out the firepower some to be sure, but it keeps both Stars to the same top speeds which pleases me (and would likely be of great value against other mobility-focused opponents, like the Wolves.)
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The Trial was a Win.
Lost two Mechs (Griffin IIC and Great Wyrm), others were all damaged, but not fatally.
Wolves lost 6 Mechs, 3 total losses, the other three I got as isorla.
What I won in the ToP was a Star of Lobos and information. The information I can use for the next Trial.
Was a thrilling and entertaining game session. We all had much fun.
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What do you think, which of the following Star League Mechs would be chosen by the Star Adders to be upgraded to ClanTech levels:
Thorn
Spector
Cicada
Starslayer
Crusader
Shootist
Thug
Pillager
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What do you think, which of the following Star League Mechs would be chosen by the Star Adders to be upgraded to ClanTech levels:
Thorn
Spector
Cicada
Starslayer
Crusader
Shootist
Thug
Pillager
I believe the bottom three
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I believe the bottom three
My choices would be: Spector, Starslayer, Thug and Pillager.
The Coyotes did use some of the SL Mechs as base for new OmniMechs (as to the Crab and Black Knight).
Which of the Mech mentioned before would you upgrade to an OmniMech?
My choice would be the Pillager >:D
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I got into BT about a month ago after only having experience with the videogames.
Chose CSA for the culture and the colors, I appreciate who they are among the clans.
Running Delta Galaxy, I only play Alpha Strike but I've really enjoyed my time with it. I'd like to try classic in the future.
I really enjoy running iconic units more associated with a faction.
I made an IWM order and picked up Burrock, Blood Asp F, and more than a star of Coronas (too many really).
So far they've performed excellently, but it's really the Coronas who steal the show, putting 4 damage at short range on a battle armor for 18 points is sickening and they consistently wreck more than their worth in PV.
Anyone else like to run them?
I'm ready for more source material! All we can do for now is speculate what they're up to, it's fun to imagine but it'll be nice to know. I'm undecided if I'm on the neo crusader train or not, but I'd like a canon reason to field Star Adders vs Kuritans in the IlClan era for example. It doesn't stop me from making something up, but still.
I'm dreaming we'll get a CSA novel, atleast as a major faction in it. AFAIK they're not featured much in the novels, am I right?
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I'd like a canon reason to field Star Adders vs Kuritans in the IlClan era for example.
Don't hold your breath on that one. The Home Clans that are left are on an indefinite moratorium, and the Adders themselves are enforcing that isolation.
I'm dreaming we'll get a CSA novel, atleast as a major faction in it. AFAIK they're not featured much in the novels, am I right?
There's a Wars of Reaving trilogy coming at some point, that will probably be your best bet.
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I find it kind of interesting that the Adders who were pre Reaving (well and after that) the powerhouse of the Homeworlds never get any mention in the novels except that short mention of absorbing the Burroks and that they beat the Free World League force in the trial of Refusal. Not even a line during the few conclave scenes.
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I find it kind of interesting that the Adders who were pre Reaving (well and after that) the powerhouse of the Homeworlds never get any mention in the novels except that short mention of absorbing the Burroks and that they beat the Free World League force in the trial of Refusal. Not even a line during the few conclave scenes.
In hindsight I agree. But to be fair to Stackpole and any other authors, the Adders didn't really became any more of a powerhouse than, say, the Hell's Horses or Goliath Scorpions until after or around the same time the novels featuring the Grand Council were written. FM: Crusader Clans came out in 1998 after those novels had been published or drafted, and before that there was no mention (IIRC) of the Burrock Absorption. Absent that, no particular reason why the Adders should get more prominence than the Mandrills or Cobras.
Clan Ice Hellion, on the other hand, definitely got some page count during that era. Makes me wonder if TPTB intended at one stage for them to play the same major role that the Adders did in reality.
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I am still interested in the faint idea of "OP:Revival 2" Homies (Adder led), with the Scorpions being the unexpected wild card to slow their Invasion
Again, alot can happen in fiction (and real life) over the next 50 years of in universe time
I feel that the Homies do deserve some "major love", again more fiction creativity zones ! :evil:
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I am still interested in the faint idea of "OP:Revival 2" Homies (Adder led), with the Scorpions being the unexpected wild card to slow their Invasion
Again, alot can happen in fiction (and real life) over the next 50 years of in universe time
I feel that the Homies do deserve some "major love", again more fiction creativity zones ! :evil:
Redoing REVIVAL only this time with even fewer invading Clans and even more Inner Sphere (+more IS Clans for extra bonus OP) would be very repetitive, tropy and anticlimactic
Especially since the whole thing risks being stopped dead in Scorpion Empire if they decide to have a detour there and we know from sourcebooks that Scorpions are ready and waiting specifically for them
And if they fly straight to Inner Sphere it's Bears and/or Dragon just for starters which is probably even worse
I did read much more spicy and more fun suggestion on YouTube how to bring Star Adders and other Home Clans back into the story: Have Inner Sphere (or at least par of it) invade Clan Homeworlds!
Instead of Star Adders being invaders throw a curve ball and drop them and other Home Clans into the role of desperate defenders who just barely manage to win. This could force them to realize that days of staying in isolation are over and would turn space between Inner Sphere and Homeworlds into the new playground
And since any invasion corridor would have to pass through or next to Scorpion Empire expansion zone (we know they are pushing spinward) it would be a great way to bring Goliath Scorpions into the mix and a reason for a good old three way shootout
There are plenty of ways to set up motive for this kind of invasion, this is feudal/tribal setting, stuff like that is easy
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I made an IWM order and picked up Burrock, Blood Asp F, and more than a star of Coronas (too many really).
So far they've performed excellently, but it's really the Coronas who steal the show, putting 4 damage at short range on a battle armor for 18 points is sickening and they consistently wreck more than their worth in PV.
Anyone else like to run them?
I'm ready for more source material! All we can do for now is speculate what they're up to, it's fun to imagine but it'll be nice to know. I'm undecided if I'm on the neo crusader train or not, but I'd like a canon reason to field Star Adders vs Kuritans in the IlClan era for example. It doesn't stop me from making something up, but still.
I'm dreaming we'll get a CSA novel, atleast as a major faction in it. AFAIK they're not featured much in the novels, am I right?
Corona Armor is the best thing in BattleTech since the Timber Wolf, it's off the chart amazing !
And I agree with you, Star Adders and Draconis Combine running into each other (especially in Deep Periphery) would be super sweet smackdown
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Clan Ice Hellion, on the other hand, definitely got some page count during that era. Makes me wonder if TPTB intended at one stage for them to play the same major role that the Adders did in reality.
The Hellions came more of as a comic relief with their Khan big mouthing and then failing every time. But for example when Osis tried to get help the Adder Khans didn't get a line. Even the Blood Spirits and Steel Vipers got one (though to be fiar the Horses were just as quiet).
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I find it kind of interesting that the Adders who were pre Reaving (well and after that) the powerhouse of the Homeworlds never get any mention in the novels except that short mention of absorbing the Burroks and that they beat the Free World League force in the trial of Refusal. Not even a line during the few conclave scenes.
I think the authors might fill up this empty novel slot.
We are going to get some interesting new products as to Brush Wars: Burrock Absorption.
Especially for the Absorption a novel would be very appreciated. How did the Adders get the proofs about the connection between the Clan and the Bandit caste? This could have been a Black Ops. And getting stories and characters about the battles of the Absorption War from the Burrocks Adders and Spirits would make this novel a great one and perfectly supplement the Brush War product. IMHO.
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BTW IMHO the reason why the Star Adders were not to invade is because they would have been far too great a challenger for the Wolves.
The Adders and Wolves are very similar, among the Clans both are very pragmatic and cold-calculating.
With the Adders in the Inner Sphere the Wolves might have got the ilClanship.
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I remember reading that the Adders did not manage to get an invasion slot because they bid very conservatively and lost early. Also the Adders offered the Wolves resources for the scouting mission but the Wolves declined. So I assume that the Adders knew that the war wasn't going to be an easy one and that they preferred new and concrete information (and perhaps hoped that the invasion Clans would bloody themselves which would lead to weaker Clans in the Homeworlds which is in essence what happened). I guess the doctrine that Absalom Truscott instilled into the first Adders are still practiced. So maybe in a very long future we see the Adders the only survivng Homeworld Clan invading the IS and fighting against the IlClan Wolves to determine who the real IlClan is
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I remember reading that the Adders did not manage to get an invasion slot because they bid very conservatively and lost early. Also the Adders offered the Wolves resources for the scouting mission but the Wolves declined. So I assume that the Adders knew that the war wasn't going to be an easy one and that they preferred new and concrete information (and perhaps hoped that the invasion Clans would bloody themselves which would lead to weaker Clans in the Homeworlds which is in essence what happened). I guess the doctrine that Absalom Truscott instilled into the first Adders are still practiced. So maybe in a very long future we see the Adders the only survivng Homeworld Clan invading the IS and fighting against the IlClan Wolves to determine who the real IlClan is
You should read the opening fiction of the Revival Trials TP. It's told from the POV of Khan Cassius N'Buta and takes place at the Grand Council meeting where it was determined how many Clans would be assigned to the invasion force. The Adders wanted all of the Clans to go (and for themselves to be leading it), and they bid their entire touman.
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When I was younger the Adders didn't appeal to me at all. I think it had everything to do with the lack of page time they got. I was more interested in the factions that were more directly active to the central stories (novels). As I've gotten older and more accustomed to how complex the real world actually is. I've started to see the internal structures of the Adders as big strengths.
In the years since I've had so many discussions with Clan fans that got more deeper and more complex over time. Often we were trying to figure out how the Clans worked and what their internal government and culture and ways of doing things looked like. How Clan logistics worked, all that stuff. We had some answers to work with, but not always a lot of actual structural, organizational framework available to us.
I appreciated that the Adders seemed to be among the best organized. That one page in FM: CC that lists the Adjutants is their greatest strength IMO. They have Keepers (akin to Loremasters) at multiple levels. They have a Naval Adjutant, Defense Adjutant, Intelligence Adjutant and Logistics Adjutant and finally just an Adder Adjutant over the lower castes.
When I was in my 20s, none of that seemed very important. Now that I'm in my 40s and understand the organizational complexities of the world better, this looks like a Clan that has addressed many practical considerations and delegated people to manage them. All of that being fleshed out and visible strikes me as extremely smart and mature. The other Clans almost hand-wave all that stuff away as "yeah... the merchants handle our logistics..".... ummm ok, sure. But the Adders practically give you an Org chart.
I'd love to see an Adders novel that put this stuff into action. Depicted a meeting or three of the Khans and those Adjutants. Or perhaps even making an Adjutant the central POV of a novel. It would still be Clan fiction, but have some distinct Adder twists to it.
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Add to that is that the Adders seem to have patience a trait that is very rare within the Clans. The Wolves call it the Kerensky vision though of course not all Kerenskys have it (looking at you Natasha). Just look at the Wars of Reaving: in essence the Adders leaned back and watch the entire chaos unfold without the others realizing they basically instigated it by handing the Vipers the rulership. A chaos that drove the Invader clans from the Homeworlds while also weakening any claimants to their absolute dominance
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I am still interested in the faint idea of "OP:Revival 2" Homies (Adder led), with the Scorpions being the unexpected wild card to slow their Invasion
Again, alot can happen in fiction (and real life) over the next 50 years of in universe time
I feel that the Homies do deserve some "major love", again more fiction creativity zones ! :evil:
The basic question is: How do we make it not just a rehash of the clan invasion? If we can’t cut a clear distinction between the overarching plots, then it’ll just make people think of CI era. Because right now, if Adders invade, once again it is a technologically superior group of fanatics who believe nothing in the inner sphere is of value except Terra, are obsessed with the star league, obsessed with their honor, and by every measure should not have the resources to come close to victory.
I’ve thought a lot about how to get HW clans in the setting and there aren’t really any good ways to do it that’ll feel new. The closest I can come up with is basically the stragglers of the HW arrive after complete economic collapse. It’s about the only new option left. Which, I would guess the adders straggling in and taking over Oberon isn’t really a plot line that HW clan fans want to see.
I did read much more spicy and more fun suggestion on YouTube how to bring Star Adders and other Home Clans back into the story: Have Inner Sphere (or at least par of it) invade Clan Homeworlds!
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There are plenty of ways to set up motive for this kind of invasion, this is feudal/tribal setting, stuff like that is easy
There really isn’t anything of value in the homeworlds and there’s no pressing cultural/religious reason to go on a crusade at them.
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Adder / (Homies in tow) Expansion ? Claim Obberon, consolidate and become power house against their rivals the Scorps ? New techbase ?
Kinda create a "new Inner Sphere" conflict area encompassing Coreward, (Periphery?) Deep Periphery (more circling towards the Scorpions and across to the Horses holdings)
...Following almost total collapse of the Hommies economy, and Clan Space Worlds really only being Cultural and Scientific valuable now
Adders are called the most pragmatic of the Clans, suddenly they realize that by them staying in the Homeworlds Clan Society will die ?
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With any longstanding sci fi universe, there's only so much you can do before you start to feel like you are treading over versions of the same material again.
Because people want that mix of "keep the things we like the same" and "but change stuff to make it fun."
It's amazing that people aren't tired of the traditional Great House feuds if you really think about it. Davion versus Liao or Kurita etc. But you change the conditions enough (i.e. right now the Davions are the underdogs and they've done some dumb things and made some big mistakes that got them here), and throw in a new generation of TROs full of new machines, and suddenly people feel reinvigorated.
I think it would be something like that. A mix of old and familiar, yet also some new elements. Their culture might be different, or maybe they've genetically engineered themselves a lot more. Or they have some truly outside-of-the-box thinking technology that people are really excited to bring to the tabletop and mess with.
Also, don't forget so much of this is just good storytelling. So by introducing a truly captivating new character or three, that can add a big hook that keeps fans engaged.
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There really isn’t anything of value in the homeworlds and there’s no pressing cultural/religious reason to go on a crusade at them.
They would be independent from the new Star League. Do you think Alaric Ward would accept this?
And the Wolves and the other Spheroid Clans would have not forgotten the shame of being expulsed from the Homeworlds by "inferior" Clans.
Never forgotten, never forgiven.
You should read the opening fiction of the Revival Trials TP. It's told from the POV of Khan Cassius N'Buta and takes place at the Grand Council meeting where it was determined how many Clans would be assigned to the invasion force. The Adders wanted all of the Clans to go (and for themselves to be leading it), and they bid their entire touman.
And in the trials the Adders fought (as proxy). And won two of three trials.
An idea, why the Home Clans have not invaded the Inersphere yet. The Star Adders are the dominating power among them. Given their idea of an invasion, all Clans should attack.
Maybe the Adders(and other Home Clans) decided they need the same touman power as they had in 3049/3050? To rebuild their forces to such powerful forces they will need time.
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They would be independent from the new Star League. Do you think Alaric Ward would accept this?
And the Wolves and the other Spheroid Clans would have not forgotten the shame of being expulsed from the Homeworlds by "inferior" Clans.
Never forgotten, never forgiven.
And in the trials the Adders fought (as proxy). And won two of three trials.
Making a lot of assumptions. Alaric’s league would need to be powered by sheer, unmasked plot armor to be in any position to send the 50 regiments/clusters needed in the next 100 years. Even that’s hard to believe.
I like the adders too, so if there was a good story involving them reaching the sphere, I’d be game for it.
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I like the adders too, so if there was a good story involving them reaching the sphere, I’d be game for it.
They don't need to reach the Inner Sphere, they just need to get in contact with someone from the Inner Sphere and there are loads of ways to make happen
In fact them (and others) showing up again shouldn't be central storyline because that was already done, having it be a side story would work much better
Here's a quick pitch for Star Adders resurfacing and also getting whole lotta other folks into the mosh pit as a bonus:
Old invasion corridor turns out to be loaded with something valuable (germanium, har-gej, whatever...) and it catches Spheroid attention
So the RasDom/Kuritans are all like: "All that stuff will be very helpful with generating income and useful for killing those honorless Kuritan/RasDom dogs even better. Yes it's a bit close for comfort to Clan Homeworlds but who cares what they think!"
And Star Adders and Homies are like: "You are waaaay too close for comfort and all that stuff is hours because we are pure and uncorrupted!"
Then you have Scorpions going all: "All of you are too close for comfort and that expensive stuff belongs to the Empire anyway! Great Father himself told us so. Just last week. In our vision."
And Hell's Horses are like: "Those Stone Lion posers are ripping off our style and is that a sweat lodge? Do they think they are Nova Cats or something! Dezgra culture and resources thieves!"
And Oberon is all: "We ain't gotta clue what's happening here but this looks like a perfect time to steal some s**t! YARRRRRRR MATEY!!!!"
And do I even need to explain why Lyrans would be interested in getting in on the action in light of their newfound fiscal insolvency?
And just like that Homies are back in the shooting gallery with everyone else without breaking ongoing storyline...
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Like I said, a new conflict area
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It would be interesting. The military of the Home Clöans should be far, far more powerful than that of the Scorpions. Even in 3090 the Adders had more galaxies and clusters than the Empire.
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It would be interesting. The military of the Home Clöans should be far, far more powerful than that of the Scorpions. Even in 3090 the Adders had more galaxies and clusters than the Empire.
That's assuming that since the Adders weren't allowed to continue their invasion plans for the Hanseatic League because of the moratorium, they haven't all simply eaten each other for lack of an enemy to fight. The Aggressors have had more than enough time to age into positions of power and start making real trouble for the Bastions.
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Who knows maybe the Adders underwent a civil war of their own weakening them for the forseeable future. Or all the Homies wiped themselves out leaving only ruins behind
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Or they have been frantically rebuilding their toumans because they know they need the same military might as all Clans had in 3050.
This would meet the Adders`way of strategic thinking.
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Or they are alive and well, their touman also but are busy with something else entirely, it's a big galaxy
We know they drew a line and said that there will be no crossing that line but saying that isn't enough by itself, you need to stand all along that line to make sure nothing crosses it and looking at the map it would be a pretty big line which means a decent chunk of their touman would have to man it
Especially if they are also keeping all the data from crossing as well which means that they also wouldn't have a clue what's happening outside
Their own theories could be ranging from "Entire Inner Sphere nuked itself into extinction" to "Entire Inner Sphere is coming to nuke us into extinction" (part of it tried to before)
How dark did they go, intel wise?
And where exactly is that no-go line? How many Deep Periphery planets are on the inside? Inner Sphere is tainted but Deep Periphery isn't supposed to be so would they be doing something with them? There would be resources and populations on those planets.
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Untapped story potential for ilClan Era, but yes I agree with you, technically Deep Perhipery is not Inner Sphere, and Scorpions are on their radar, and the Scorps are always ready for them in case they show up, thus creating the "Garrison Caste". They could launch intel per say into Periphery to see whats going on in the Sphere ?
Evolved Clan Culture reveal, more Protomech stuff perhaps ? :evil:
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Untapped story potential for ilClan Era, but yes I agree with you, technically Deep Perhipery is not Inner Sphere, and Scorpions are on their radar, and the Scorps are always ready for them in case they show up, thus creating the "Garrison Caste". They could launch intel per say into Periphery to see whats going on in the Sphere ?
Evolved Clan Culture reveal, more Protomech stuff perhaps ? :evil:
Exactly!!! (Maybe even protomechs that don't look like D'n'D dungeon staff and don't have whacky pilots? Man can dream...)
Keeping the taint out is important but doing it by completely ignoring events outside is foolish.
They would have to make effort to collect intel from beyond the separation line and Clan Watch should be making this their top priority.
I have no doubt that once designers do decide to bring back Star Adders and Home Clans they will write that they kept the tabs on Inner Sphere all that time by sneaking through Periphery, nabbing random people for interrogation (like Scorpions do with pirates) and listening in on all sorts comms. Perhaps even sending operatives inside for first hand accounts.
As for Star Adders, Homies and Scorpion Empire while active Watch operations have been stamped out by both sides in decades since I have no doubt that there are still agents on the ground laying low, taking notes and reporting back to the Homeworlds. Scorpions would definitely have general idea about the situation in the Homeworlds as well. Spying is still a thing and Dark Caste ships that slip out would be targeted for information gathering just as much as Inner Sphere pirates are and Homeworld and Empire's spaceships would be running into each other way out there in the deep from time to time before bailing (weaker side pulls out) and going home to report on what happened.
Knowledge of situation in the Homeworlds would be high value data that Scorpion Watch wouldn't be making public or just give away to anyone because that's not regular news, it's national security stuff. Just like Sea Foxes share the news reports from the Inner Sphere when they visit but don't disclose knowledge of events like Invasion of Republic by Wolves and Falcons or Annihilation of Nova Cats by Combine because it's military intel.
Crusade wouldn't be launched without making sure that everything is relatively stable in Coreward direction and that would require reliable information from the other side.
At the very least Star Adders plus Homies and Scorpions (their Watch units that is) are regularly and studiously watching each other's "TV stations" to stay in the loop and are going through each and every frame and sentence with fine tooth comb.
And good of you to remember Garrison Caste in the Empire, everyone keeps counting Scorpion galaxies and clusters (7 and 42) but they all ignore Garrison Caste PGCs which are hefty. It's never just touman with them anymore when it comes to home defense, it's touman + grunts and together they add up to something very sizable (it's called Imperio Militar for a reason but this is topic for different tread)
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Exactly!!! (Maybe even protomechs that don't look like D'n'D dungeon staff and don't have whacky pilots? Man can dream..
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Matt Plog did some awesome looking variants of the Protomechs.
https://www.deviantart.com/mattplog/art/Comm-Production-Minotaur-696460448
Search his gallery for more.
However, I would rather see that the Home Clans have Mechs with Interface Cockpits (as to the Skinwalker Omnimech) as standard.
Keeping the taint out is important but doing it by completely ignoring events outside is foolish.
They would have to make effort to collect intel from beyond the separation line and Clan Watch should be making this their top priority.
I have no doubt that once designers do decide to bring back Star Adders and Home Clans they will write that they kept the tabs on Inner Sphere all that time by sneaking through Periphery, nabbing random people for interrogation (like Scorpions do with pirates) and listening in on all sorts comms. Perhaps even sending operatives inside for first hand accounts.
I do not think that the Scorpion does know what is going on with the Home Clans.
And good of you to remember Garrison Caste in the Empire, everyone keeps counting Scorpion galaxies and clusters (7 and 42) but they all ignore Garrison Caste PGCs which are hefty. It's never just touman with them anymore when it comes to home defense, it's touman + grunts and together they add up to something very sizable (it's called Imperio Militar for a reason but this is topic for different tread)
When in the WoR "civilian" castes tried to oppose the warriors and their resistance was too heavy to be subdued by ground forces, orbital bombardements was the usual solution to solve this problem.
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Sadly no one knows what is going on in the Homeworld. Both the Scorpion Empire and Hells Horses had some contact but it has been silent for 60+ years. Either they are waiting for the right moment to strike or they are barley hanging on with what they had. Remember most of the planets in the Homeworld are barley livable and they lost a third due to the Wars of Reaving. Only time and the right writer will tell us what’s been happening.
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.Matt Plog did some awesome looking variants of the Protomechs.
https://www.deviantart.com/mattplog/art/Comm-Production-Minotaur-696460448
Search his gallery for more.
However, I would rather see that the Home Clans have Mechs with Interface Cockpits (as to the Skinwalker Omnimech) as standard.
I've seen those designs, excellent stuff, this is exactly how they should look like.
Good call on interface cockpits but they would still need to do something about pilots going bonkers first (it's just a matter of writer saying that they fixed it, it's not a new game rule being added or anything)
Protomech pilots have a tendency to go postal after a while, now imagine some guy who is plugged into something like Blood Asp going postal? It's a problem in dire need of fixing.
I do not think that the Scorpion does know what is going on with the Home Clans.
It's definitely official line at the moment
But if Home Clans come back writers will have to explain such a colossal radio silence which could be a hassle so I'm definitely putting my money on writers going with option that both sides were spying on each other and were simply keeping the info classified.
Keeps the story straightforward.
When in the WoR "civilian" castes tried to oppose the warriors and their resistance was too heavy to be subdued by ground forces, orbital bombardements was the usual solution to solve this problem.
True that but those civilians were just that - civilians and they obviously didn't have stuff like anti-orbital defenses, aerospace/space assets and reinforcements en route
Or just general stuff like interstellar nation and full size military armed to the teeth (on top of seven decades prep time)
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Sadly no one knows what is going on in the Homeworld. Both the Scorpion Empire and Hells Horses had some contact but it has been silent for 60+ years. Either they are waiting for the right moment to strike or they are barley hanging on with what they had. Remember most of the planets in the Homeworld are barley livable and they lost a third due to the Wars of Reaving. Only time and the right writer will tell us what’s been happening.
Yeah their planets were trashed
I often see people going only with two options: they are coming with Invasion 2.0 or they are all dead and I just don't subscribe to it, there has to be a middle ground
If their planets are irrecoverably damaged it doesn't mean they are gone, we seen factions like Wolverines or Wobbies who were actively hunted and still managed to slip through
Home Clans have all the tools, skills and resources needed to survive
If situation is bad enough they would simply come to a conclusion that it's time to bail and relocate somewhere else just like so many before
They could have simply set up shop somewhere like Yarnfolk neighborhood North of the Combine, it would keep them alive and explain radio silence, there's no shortage of un-roasted planets in Deep Periphery
I just can't accept the possibility of them being gone, it doesn't compute
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Good call on interface cockpits but they would still need to do something about pilots going bonkers first (it's just a matter of writer saying that they fixed it, it's not a new game rule being added or anything).
Protomech pilots have a tendency to go postal after a while, now imagine some guy who is plugged into something like Blood Asp going postal? It's a problem in dire need of fixing.
Agreed.
However, the writers could achieve this with certain technological improvements/enhancements. Even with genetics.
It's definitely official line at the moment
But if Home Clans come back writers will have to explain such a colossal radio silence which could be a hassle so I'm definitely putting my money on writers going with option that both sides were spying on each other and were simply keeping the info classified.
This is an idea.
However, if the Home Clans do not send any message via HPG in direction of the Inner Sphere- or Scorpion Empire, there would be nothing to receive.
Radio messages does need very long a time in such interstellar distances.
True that but those civilians were just that - civilians and they obviously didn't have stuff like anti-orbital defenses, aerospace/space assets and reinforcements en route
Or just general stuff like interstellar nation and full size military armed to the teeth (on top of seven decades prep time)
The Home Clans have had seven decades of prep time either. And they could begin from far better basics (industrial capacities, manpower (civilian and military), aerospace and naval power, science).
If they do not accept the garrison caste as part of the touman and declaring them dezgra, it will be a very bloody business. It will be a genocide.
Nevertheless, it is a thrilling situation there.
Conquering the Empire is far away from being a piece of cake, look forward what is up to get happened with the Empire and the Home Clans.
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Yeah their planets were trashed
Several but not all of them. Two planets of the original Pentagon are now "dead" and also some of the "better" one in the Kerensky cluter. but after the Reavings those planets that are left should be enough to feed a much reduced population.Of course what could have happened would be another set of unrestricted warfare ravaging what is left. Heck maybe we get this scenario: a hasty invasion of whatever is left due to a rapid decline of the Homeworlds. Kindof like what the Horses did during the Jihad: an offensive with a hasty exodus as Khan Cobb saw the writing on the wall
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The Home Clans do not need to build great settlements on the planets, industrial enclaves would be sufficed. And given their expertise in automated industries, these enclaves even would not need much manpower.
Much of the abandoned enclaves and their industries could be reactivated. Beginning from a base is better than start from something completely new.
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Yeah their planets were trashed
I often see people going only with two options: they are coming with Invasion 2.0 or they are all dead and I just don't subscribe to it, there has to be a middle ground
If their planets are irrecoverably damaged it doesn't mean they are gone, we seen factions like Wolverines or Wobbies who were actively hunted and still managed to slip through
Home Clans have all the tools, skills and resources needed to survive
If situation is bad enough they would simply come to a conclusion that it's time to bail and relocate somewhere else just like so many before
They could have simply set up shop somewhere like Yarnfolk neighborhood North of the Combine, it would keep them alive and explain radio silence, there's no shortage of un-roasted planets in Deep Periphery
I just can't accept the possibility of them being gone, it doesn't compute
I agree that they’re still alive and semi-well. The question is are they preparing for invasion 2.0 or are they so strapped for resources it’s the Third Succession War but with Clan tech.
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Somehow when thinking about the Home Clans I have to think of Marabunta (Army ants). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_ant)
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They don't need to reach the Inner Sphere, they just need to get in contact with someone from the Inner Sphere and there are loads of ways to make happen
In fact them (and others) showing up again shouldn't be central storyline because that was already done, having it be a side story would work much better
Here's a quick pitch for Star Adders resurfacing and also getting whole lotta other folks into the mosh pit as a bonus:
Old invasion corridor turns out to be loaded with something valuable (germanium, har-gej, whatever...) and it catches Spheroid attention
So the RasDom/Kuritans are all like: "All that stuff will be very helpful with generating income and useful for killing those honorless Kuritan/RasDom dogs even better. Yes it's a bit close for comfort to Clan Homeworlds but who cares what they think!"
And Star Adders and Homies are like: "You are waaaay too close for comfort and all that stuff is hours because we are pure and uncorrupted!"
Then you have Scorpions going all: "All of you are too close for comfort and that expensive stuff belongs to the Empire anyway! Great Father himself told us so. Just last week. In our vision."
And Hell's Horses are like: "Those Stone Lion posers are ripping off our style and is that a sweat lodge? Do they think they are Nova Cats or something! Dezgra culture and resources thieves!"
And Oberon is all: "We ain't gotta clue what's happening here but this looks like a perfect time to steal some s**t! YARRRRRRR MATEY!!!!"
And do I even need to explain why Lyrans would be interested in getting in on the action in light of their newfound fiscal insolvency?
And just like that Homies are back in the shooting gallery with everyone else without breaking ongoing storyline...
That would be the safest approach for the writers to test the waters of the HWCs coming back and give players some side action away from Clan Wolf.
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IMHO a future battlefield might be the Tanite worlds.
Depopulated in the WoR and being reported as deserted in the WoR aftermath but still rich in resources (raw materials and industrial facalities) they are a good price to fight for.
And they are a good stepstone to the Inner Sphere and to the Clan Home worlds respectively.
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Interesting speculation above, but alas I fear it'll be years before we see the Homies again in print, and that's including Brush Wars: Burrock Absorption (damn mercs) :cry:
IMHO a future battlefield might be the Tanite worlds.
Depopulated in the WoR and being reported as deserted in the WoR aftermath but still rich in resources (raw materials and industrial facalities) they are a good price to fight for.
And they are a good stepstone to the Inner Sphere and to the Clan Home worlds respectively.
Not to mention being much more livable than the Pentagon or Cluster worlds themselves apparently, or at least self-sufficient according to the WOR Supplemental. Prime real estate like that, the Tanite worlds ought to be the first worlds re-settled. Restoring the Clan population to pre-Reaving levels might be easier on worlds where the environment isn't actively trying to kill the settlers, after all.
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Interesting speculation above, but alas I fear it'll be years before we see the Homies again in print, and that's including Brush Wars: Burrock Absorption (damn mercs) :cry:
Oh? Have I missed an announcement somewhere?
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Oh? Have I missed an announcement somewhere?
It was some time ago but there was a post in upcoming releases that BW: Burrock Absorption has been pushed back to season 4 of Brush Wars, with mercenary-themed items being released first due to the kickstarter.
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Given that TPTB like to publish products which are connected with each other in theme and ing-game timeline, these Clan-related Brush Wars events might get published when we might hear something about the Home Clans again.
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Brethren of Kerensky`s True Idea, I wish you a Happy New Year!
May the Stars of the Home Clans aglow again.
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Brethren of Kerensky`s True Idea, I wish you a Happy New Year!
May the Stars of the Home Clans aglow again.
Seyla, throtkin!
True Star League will rise again, Happy New Year
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May the Stars of the Home Clans aglow again.
Seyla! Also, Happy New Year!
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On Sarna.net is a nice story about the Hellfire Battlemech:
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hellfire/
A mech only for tough Warriors :evil:
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At sarna.net there is an interesting long interview with Ray Arrastia and Aaron Cahall (Line Developer and Assistant Line Developer).
https://www.sarna.net/news/battletech-in-2024-an-interview-with-line-developer-ray-arrastia-assistant-line-developer-aaron-cahall/
Among some other info, they were asked about the Home Clans and they answered
*snip*
Sean: What’s up with the Home Clans? Are we gonna hear from them again?
Ray: Odds are we will hear from them again in the future. That said, the reason that they haven’t come back yet is there’s no interesting story there. There is some demand; people have factions back there that they’re interested in. I do as well, but there is just no interesting story.
It’s sort of like how the Golden Century wouldn’t have been a fertile place for stories while we were in the Third Succession War. If there’s no conflict, why do we care what’s going on out there? The focus isn’t there. So why do we go back and focus on the homeworlds? That’s what needs to be answered. Why? What interesting things can we say with them?
Aaron: So many of the ideas we get are just a variant of the Clan Invasion: Part 2 or Task Force Serpent. So you have to answer that question Ray just asked without using any words that make me think we’re invading one way or the other.
Well then we won’t invade, we’ll just do a Homeworlds-only story that has nothing to do with the Inner Sphere. And you’re into his other question, okay, why? It has to be so compelling—and I mean compelling, like without debasing the setting with aliens or something.
So we’re not invading the Inner Sphere. They’re not invading us. We have to have conflict in the homeworlds. That isn’t the Wars of Reaving ‘cause we’ve already done that, and it can’t be aliens. Once you start putting up guardrails, even very basic ones, it gets hard.
I worry that we’re at a place with the Home Clans—people won’t like me saying this, sorry, Ray—I worry that we’re at a place with the Home Clans where we are with the Minnesota Tribe. We’ve stopped answering that question, or rather, we answer now only in terms of any answer we give will be wrong to some significant portion of the fan base. So we don’t answer. We’re just not going to go down that road. Anything we say will be unsatisfying, so we’re just letting it lie. That’s easy with the Minnesota Tribe, ‘cause there’s been pokes at conspiracies and answers and other stuff.
The Home Clans I worry are entering that territory where any answer we give to them will be unsatisfying and wrong to a pretty significant part of the fan base. So anyone listening or reading, it has to be like the best idea we’ve ever heard to have us do something and not “Oh, I’ve an interesting variation on Task Force Serpent.” It’s got to be something that makes me literally sit up.
Ray: It’s kind of a long answer and Aaron and I could go even further, but it’s because it has been discussed. It’s been discussed to death. We haven’t forgotten about them. And as a reminder, it was sort of handed to us that they’ve been quiet for 80 years or so. Nobody’s had contact with them.
We’re focusing on the Inner Sphere, and we’ve moved 15, 20 years from that point in Dark Age. We will probably see them again someday, but it needs to be fun and interesting.
Sean: For now they can just have another Golden Century and we’ll just not talk about it because it’s kind of boring.
Aaron: And we’re going back with fiction to fill in some of those stories. You may have noticed, Randall’s last Founding of the Clans novel carried a Clan Homeworld symbol. John wants to do more in the home worlds, but not post-3085.
Mmhh, maybe how the Wars of Reavings was done they regret now. The Home Clans seem have to be moved in a dead end now.
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I'm actually glad they don't just want to do Clan Invasion 2.0 or a variation of Taskforce Serpent. I think that's smart and commendable. Battletech can be a little too fond of repeating history (of its own history even).
It would be easy to take this information as glass half empty, I'm trying to be a little glass half full here. They are looking for a GREAT story idea or angle and they just haven't found it yet. They don't want to just dream up some half-baked story. That's actually good news in my book. There's lots of ways that they could bring back the Homeworld Clans that would illicit nothing but eye rolls from this crowd. In recent years and decades I've watched a few of the fandoms that I've been a part of fall prey to bad products, bad writing, bad stories/movies etc. Enough so to recognize that there is value in taking your time and doing it right.
Also there is references to telling stories from the Homeworlds in past eras. I'm quite excited to hear that.
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Wow! That's some insight from high places. Some good and bad from the info in that article as I see it.
The Good:
THE HOMEWORLD CLANS STILL EXIST! The Manei Domini didn't go on a hellride to Strana Mechty. The Aggressors didn't burn everything down. The Society did not return at the head of viral outbreaks and Genecaste hordes. They're still a potential factor even if nobody knows what to do with them for now.
They're staying away from REVIVAL and TF Serpent 2.0s. That is somewhat refreshing to hear, even if it does severely restrict the story possibilities for them moving forward. Although, word will reach them eventually that the Wolves took Terra, proclaimed a new Star League, and oh yeah, they've got the Great Father there too. How they won't feel compelled to invade will take some interesting storytelling. Though if the Adders still hold sway, their pragmatic bent could lead to some interesting possibilities for asymmetric approaches.
The Bad:
We're clearly not going to be hearing from them any time soon.
They seem to be focused on making grand sweeping plot movements with any reappearance of the HWs. IMO, they don't need to launch a full invasion or themselves be invaded. I've said it elsewhere, but they would make for an excellent inclusion in smaller-stakes stories. The Scorpions, known to wander and the closest to that region, could accidentally kick-over some anthill or other, but instead of ants it's Stone Lions that come out. Replace the Scorpions with IE, or members of Abdoun Ricol's alliance, or someone else entirely and draws a limited response from one or more Homeworld Clans. Maybe the Malthus Confederation receives some exotic equipment from parts unknown and plots to use it to further destabilize the Hinterlands (a la Intergang and Apokolips from DC). Maybe there exist in-universe rumors of a lost JumpShip from the final Diamond Shark or Snow Raven convoys fleeing the Reavings carrying germanium/riches/Kerensky's preserved toenail clippings and some ambitious ovKhan from the Foxes goes looking and inadvertently kicks off a limited campaign across the Exodus Road. It sounds like they're maybe overlooking all the small hooks that could be set in favor of getting something big going.
Although, I too am excited to hear more of pre-3085 Homeworlds. I want my dang Absorption War Historical, already! :cussing:
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Yeah, possible new micro conflict areas could be (again said) Scorpion / Homeworlds overlap area, and the Exodus Road, the part that is "nearer" to the IS
Also wait it out in ilClan years, then possibly in 20 years time, the Ravens discover the Adders/Hommies quietly lurking on their back door, readying to strike, and they are like "crap" we are out matched, Star Adder finally makes a move at SL ? Or comes on a burning crusade to purge "tainted" Clans
Or as discussed smaller Fox thing
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Yeah, this news tracks with what I said based on WoR Supplemental: Homies are definitely alive, Star Adders let Aggressors make idiots of themselves in the Imperio and then have put their foot up everyone's butt and told them to get in line, start cleaning things up and working towards another Golden Century
I already suggested that the good way to bring them back into the story is resource conflict in Deep Periphery
Another good way to get them out is to have nature do the heavy lifting: A cosmic disaster of some kind (unstable pulsar, weird black hole or neutron star going boom in the near future...) could become impeding threat and force Home Clans to wholesale evacuate somewhere else, preferably in old Exodus Road (Yarnfolk neighborhood would be my choice but not too close, it would also bring Yarnfolk back to the story)
They would want to do it quietly and thoroughly which would explain radio silence and after a while they would start running into other factions in the neighborhood because you can't stay undetected forever
Important thing is to have the story of Home Clans be the story about Home Clans and not about the Inner Sphere or ilClan, there's no need to cram that into their narrative because that's how you end up with repeating Clan Invasion or Operation Serpent which is what writers are trying to avoid
Let the Homies breathe a bit, four of them could go and do four different things in close proximity to each other and grow to four different sizes, they need to be allowed to go on their own
Goliath Scorpions were allowed to go on their own and it did wonders for the lore
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Well as said before there is a "homeworlds" novel symbol, perhaps a short shrapnel story in the closing days of the Wars of Reavings perhaps with Star Adder Ristar secret movement looking forward, as it could be a series of stories from each Homeworld Clan reflecting after the Wars ended, before the "Cut off for 100 years "
But resource wars, conflicts, lacking of them, another Golden Century could potentially turn out new tech, like Protomechs, but actually good this time, something involving "enhanced/healthy" enhanced Imaging, for want of a better word "Protomechs the size of a small mech", consisting of tech using MASC, Ferro Fibers, Myomer, and hargel into some mix of tech and "liquid metal" with a pilot in the middle, fully bonded to machine AI as a companion concept (like Cortana and Chief)
Also as you said Fire Scorpion, something happens naturally which some how evolves the Homies affected
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I'd love to see the Inner Sphere experience a new era of expansion at some point down the road. Expand the map of inhabited systems. Probably means both a linear expansion outward from the current edges of the map (see the periphery powers become bigger players in their own right, but that can also mean expansion of Clan OZ and Great House space), but also new pockets of humanity springing up out in the void, centered around particularly valuable worlds that were neglected up to this point because of hostile environments or other factors (look to the early history of the Inner Sphere and the Great Houses for ideas as to what that looks like on a map). Maybe there's some big breakthroughs in terraforming tech or a new development in interstellar travel technology that explain why we've pivoted to a new age of expansion.
As a byproduct, the Homeworld Clans aren't so distant anymore and come back into the story. But it isn't an Operation Revival 2.0, it isn't Taskforce Serpent. First and foremost it's an expansion of humanity across the stars, largely a civilian/government driven effort. Rather than a military operation.
But naturally, this is Battletech, wherever humanity goes, war tends to follow eventually.
I think that would be very cool and it would be something we haven't really played out before. Yes, the expansion cycles that created the Inner Sphere and periphery have always been there as part of Battletech's history, but always in the distant past and predates the BattleMech for the most part.
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I'd personally like to see the Home Clans engage in a serious conflict with the Scorpion Empire. They're "close" (relatively speaking), they're already enemies, the Home Clans have already done the scouting work (between their Watch ops and their scouting of beachhead worlds to use as a jumping-off point for invasion), and honestly, if there's a current faction that desperately needs some sort of engagement (they're literally sitting there doing nothing) and/or humbling (have they suffered a single setback or problem of any significance since their Abjuration?), it's the Empire. The only problem I see is that the Home Clans, even after the losses of the WoR, still have a massive advantage in WarShips... and the will to actually use them for glassing planets. But I think there's serious potential in a conflict between the two extremes of Clan evolution: one side that's evolved to become less Clan and the other that's evolved to become more Clan. And selfishly, I'm A-OK with watching a bunch of factions I dislike to varying degrees beat the daylights out of each other.
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IMHO the idea of a conflict between the scorpions and Home Clanners shortly after theEmpire was founded was buried with Ben Rome`s departure.
Most of the original ideas how the Home Clans ongoing story was stopped and is to be rewritten.
About stories TPTB could tell us I would be very interested in something like a Historical or Brush Wars-style publication about the Star Adder-Blood Spirit war after the events of the Absorption War.
Including the grand invasion of York, ongoing battles on this planet on ground and in space, Spirit reprisals against Adder enclaves, political intrigues and powergames, secret moves , new battle technology made of the requirements of the conflict . And so on.
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During the Bakumatsu period, the sonno joi ("Revere the Emperor, Expel the Barbarians") movement was used by the anti-Shogunate forces coalescing to topple the Tokugawa bekufu in the run-up to the Boshin War. And yet, when the Meiji Restoration actually took place, the new government formed by the victorious Satsuma and Choshu domains - who were as acutely aware of Japan's relative vulnerability as the last shogun had been - promptly jettisoned any such talk in favour of a full-scale effort at modernization... to include abolishing their own home domains and replacing them with prefectures.
Similarly, I think of how the Star Adders used the Steel Vipers to evict the Invader Clans from the Homeworlds... only to turn on their former allies at exactly the point at which they ceased to be politically useful.
Alas, just as not all of those who fought on the Boshin War were content in the new Meiji-era Japan, leading to the ill-fated Satsuma Rebellion, the legacy of the Bloody IlKhan had by no means been fully digested as of The Wars of Reaving Supplemental - as seen with the rise of the Bastion and Aggressor factions.
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In any case, the Star Adders are, or were, supposed to be the self-proclaimed "grown-ups" in the room: using one of their Galaxies as an Inner Sphere OpFor; pushing to have all of the Clans go together during Operation REVIVAL; and, when that effort failed, bidding their entire Clan to be part of the invasion force.
But even if that would still be the case - as in, the Adders plan to essentially migrate to the Inner Sphere en masse - there's still the question of how to prepare for such a massive undertaking. Not least with so much to be done in order to rebuild the Homeworlds to the state that they can provide the resources needed to undertake such a reverse-Exodus.
And there's still the question of what to do once they get there. Taint or no taint, there is going to have to be some sort of plan in place to deal with their would-be Inner Sphere subjects in a way that is not entirely self-defeating. They are supposed to be the level-headed ones; surely that should also include taking the time to figure out what a would-be Star Adder Occupation Zone would look like?
And there is the question of how eager - or not - some within the surviving Homeworld Clans might be to say goodbye to Strana Mechty for good. What if, at the time a new invasion/migration is seriously being discussed, there are more than a few who are not ready to abandon the Pentagon Worlds and Kerensky Cluster, if the logic of the Adders' argument is to be followed through with?
Trying to answer any or all of these questions, and more, could help explain why it's taken so long for any contact to be made wit hthe Homeworlds as of 3152: it's taken that long, and more besides (such as, say, news about the McKenna's Pride and of the entombing of General Kerensky's body at Unity City to reach Strana Mechty), for this process of evolution to play out.
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Personally, I would suggest that the Coyote "problem" be dealt with by leaving them behind as the last Wardens: joined perhaps by whichever Cloud Cobra Cloisters vote to stay at home. While seeing the Star Adders, the Stone Lions, and the other Cobra Cloisters - to include their respective civilian populations - set out to make a permanent move to the Inner Sphere.
This would be the first time a Clan migration took place entirely on its own terms, rather than being the result of a rushed timetable (or a prompt expulsion).
I noted this in a separate thread, but I'd place their would-be OZs facing the old Exodus Road: with the Stone Lions on the far side of the Rasalhague Dominion from the Hell's Horses; the Cobras placed next door to the Raven Alliance; and with the Adders holding the centre position between the two.
That might lead to some unexpected alliances, if the Bears and Ravens were to see the Combine as the lesser of two evils. But then... what if the Horses end up siding with the new arrivals, and push to link up with their Stone Lion counterparts by cutting through Dominion space?
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Overall, I'd worry that, the longer the Gordian knot of what to do with the Homeworld Clans is left, the more difficult it might seem to untangle it.
Perhaps, at some point, this knot should be cut: better that then keep them off the board for the foreseeable future.
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Seriously, I would rather see the Home Clans giving up the return to the "tainted" Inner Sphere. Instead I would like to see them build up a new stellar empire of their own, colonizing new planets, developing new technologies (not only military, but civilian like terraforming and other engineering wonders).
A new, alternative and working Star League (far, far away).
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Seriously, I would rather see the Home Clans giving up the return to the "tainted" Inner Sphere. Instead I would like to see them build up a new stellar empire of their own, colonizing new planets, developing new technologies (not only military, but civilian like terraforming and other engineering wonders).
A new, alternative and working Star League (far, far away).
This right here
Been saying it since forever, don't try to saddle them with leftovers of someone else's story, give them their own story
It's a big Deep Periphery
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This right here
Been saying it since forever, don't try to saddle them with leftovers of someone else's story, give them their own story
It's a big Deep Periphery
The only question is will they come out (of the Homeworlds) kicking and screaming or be yanked out kicking and screaming. The writers can go either way but the most important part is it must be interesting. Personally I only see the Homeworlds coming out if either Alaric invades them or if there is a rise in popularity (or rule change) with the Protomechs.
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The only question is will they come out (of the Homeworlds) kicking and screaming or be yanked out kicking and screaming. The writers can go either way but the most important part is it must be interesting. Personally I only see the Homeworlds coming out if either Alaric invades them or if there is a rise in popularity (or rule change) with the Protomechs.
Probably the Scorpions will do some kind of contact. The Tanite worlds could be an area of contest.
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But as we talk about just a backstory for a battle simulation game, there will not be a peaceful new star league with just some kind of technology progress and new colonies that work happy together. Every story written around the Homeworlds will open up new scenarios for a game of Battletech.
That means, there must be some kind of conflict. Either within the remaining homeworld clans or between them and the IS.
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Without competition among the Home Clans there will not be any progress. So they quarrel among themselves, test their battle acumen against each other, improving their capabilities and new technologies.
And maybe to keep their warriors busy, they are up to do some great engineering and infrrastructure projects as to Terraforming.
Old Rome`s Legions were kept busy with road constructing and other projects. Worked well for Rome (for some time at least).
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Probably the Scorpions will do some kind of contact. The Tanite worlds could be an area of contest.
I thought the Tanite worlds are dead. I am pretty sure the Adders bombed them into the Sone Age when they wiped out the last Burrocks
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I thought the Tanite worlds are dead. I am pretty sure the Adders bombed them into the Sone Age when they wiped out the last Burrocks
They did indeed. The Adders pretty much wiped out their population when they retook the system, unwilling to allow any remnants to fester.
And it's highly doubtful that the Scorpions would intentionally seek out contact with the Home Clans anyway. They'd have no reason to invite that kind of conflict on themselves, especially given the fact that the Home Clans still have a lot of WarShips and the willingness to use them against "Tainted" Clans like the Scorpions.
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Without competition among the Home Clans there will not be any progress. So they quarrel among themselves, test their battle acumen against each other, improving their capabilities and new technologies.
And maybe to keep their warriors busy, they are up to do some great engineering and infrrastructure projects as to Terraforming.
Old Rome`s Legions were kept busy with road constructing and other projects. Worked well for Rome (for some time at least).
I could see them making some of the worlds more habitable but they are still a warrior culture first. You bring in a star of troops to build a twelve story house and all I see is duelling with I-beams.
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I could see them making some of the worlds more habitable but they are still a warrior culture first. You bring in a star of troops to build a twelve story house and all I see is duelling with I-beams.
... why would they have warriors doing the building when they have an entire laborer caste to do that stuff?
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... why would they have warriors doing the building when they have an entire laborer caste to do that stuff?
Only thing I could think of would be punishment duty. But that might be different with the Clans. Wars of Reaving already drew a picture of what warriors do when they have noi real target. They battle among themselves (mainly the Star Adders who have the biggest touman at that point)
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Only thing I could think of would be punishment duty. But that might be different with the Clans. Wars of Reaving already drew a picture of what warriors do when they have noi real target. They battle among themselves (mainly the Star Adders who have the biggest touman at that point)
The Star Adders specifically put their warriors who fight too much with the other Clans post-WoR to work on construction and rebuilding projects.
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So for the Home Clans the most important for surviving is to keep their warriors from starting another conflict which might be the last for them.
Reducing their numbers would be difficult, because they still need quite a number for their plans (new invasion) and for keeping their edge.
Building a strong pool of reserve warriors would be an alternative. They would keep their warrior status, have to fight their trials (e.g. once a year to keep their status) and fight in military trainings (even less than the active warriors), could get back in active status.
Working in engineering or other projects would help to foster the bands between the other castes and the warrior caste. Nevertheless the warriors would get precious knowledge and experience (e.g. using a Mech for constructing a building would greatly increase your piloting and handling skills).
Some Clans have done this before, especially the Diamond Sharks.
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I don't know that this is truly an existential crisis level dilemma. Particularly if they stick to Zell.
For most of Clan history, pre-3050, they just fought Zell fights for all kinds of things amongst themselves and this was more than adequate to keep the warriors busy. By sticking to these forms of Trials, they restricted the amount of damage and collateral damage they could truly inflict. So military conflict was rarely an existential threat to the society itself.
Yes, it's true that the writers leaned into warrior angst as a reason to send some of their warriors to attack the Hanseatic League. Yet others were put to work fighting Trials for genetic legacies from dead Clans like the Mandrills. However with time (generations) they can shift the expectations and norms of their warriors back to that pre-Revival mindset that restricted Trials fought in accordance with Zell is honorable and the best way for them to earn individual honor and glory and all that. If the warriors can accept that's sufficient, the Homeworld Clans should be fine.
This also isn't the first time the Clans have had to clean up a huge mess that is a lack of infrastructure and worlds shredded by unrestricted warfare. The Pentagon Worlds were a huge mess after the Exodus Civil War, that they found themselves having to manage after Operation Klondike. I'm not saying it's easy (and some individual worlds may be beyond saving). It's the work of generations of people. But they've done it before.
None of this is truly unprecedented territory. It just feels that way. The Homeworld Clans have experienced all of this before and come out the other side ok, their status is very akin to the early days of Clans post-Klondike. Trying to build up small Clans into larger ones, trying to establish themselves on worlds devastated by war, trying to grow their populations and infrastructure.
Things only really went wrong for the Clans when their perceived reality and place in the universe began to change. The reality that the Spheroids were equals. The reality that the Clans weren't the center of the future of the human race. The reality that the Clans in the Inner Sphere were changing from the Clans in the Homeworlds and that change was seen as bad. All of this was interpreted as there being something horrifically wrong that began to tear Clan society apart.
They could have taken a different tact and attitude toward change. It wasn't guaranteed to happen that way. To use a real-world example, for a long time Japan in the 1800s was an isolationist country trying to ward off influence from other countries to preserve its power and way of life even as ships from foreign nations began to try to stick their nose in Japan's door. When that isolationism finally couldn't be maintained anymore, they didn't just begrudgingly join the global arena, they actually embraced modernizing as quick as possible. There were plenty of problems and growing pains and mistakes made, but ultimately Japan decided it was going to be a peer nation to all those others. Not through isolationism but through joining that global community of nations.
So, the lesson for the Homeworld Clans is that interaction with outside cultures is alchemy. By coming into contact with other cultures, you will change, it will be culturally akin to a chemical reaction that changes two elements when you bring them into contact with each other. You can accept this reality, or you can keep trying to resist it by punching yourself in the face every time you feel a sneeze coming on that feels too much like a Spheroid sneeze instead of a Clan sneeze.
If they hold on to the ideas of taint and being tainted and all that and keep that front and center to their identity. Then I don't have a lot of hope for the Homeworld Clans doing much of anything. Pure isolationism and self-imposed quarantine will be their only mode of operation. They will, ironically, have adopted a very Blood Spirit way of life. To drift from that will always mean to be dissatisfied with the outcome, because try as you might, exposure to other peoples and other ways of life will change you. Whether it takes a year or 20, they'll be dissatisfied with what happens and may revert back to thinking that they need to isolate again or turn back the clock.
The writers have already said they don't want a Revival 2.0. They want something else. So pure aggressor philosophy fanatical invasion sounds like it's off the table to me. That's a big deal. That's a huge hint of where this has to go if the Homeworld Clans are going to go anywhere or do anything.
If Revival 2.0 off the table, then all other prospective paths forward have a common thread. They require the Homeworld Clans to change. To accept that interaction with other cultures will change them. They come to terms with that being ok, because they see it as just part of whatever journey they have decided to embark upon.
That will require a complete re-think of their prevailing philosophies from the last time we got an update about them, and views and goals and a certain level of acceptance of what's to come and how it will change them in the process.
I do think it's possible, above all the Adders have always been pragmatists, and they will be generations removed from 3085. Their perception of the Wars of Reaving, it's causes, why it happened, may have changed a lot across the generations.
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There is always the option that in the end all Homeworld clans cease to exist and someday an expedition stumbles upon the remains of the old Star League in Exile, Clan Homeworlds what ever it's called
Or they merge all to one Clan just as Kerensky had intended when he introduced the concept of Absorption. And from there they will then send envoys to the Is Star League as a way to reconcile with the IS
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There is alwaqys the option that in the end all Homeworld clans cease to exist and soeday an expedition stumbles upon the remains of the old Star League in Exile, Clan Homeworlds what ever it's called
.......
Developers went on record countless times that this headcanon will not be happening
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Developers went on record countless times that this headcanon will not be happening
Pointing out an option that exists is not "headcanon".
And speaking for the developers when they've changed course on things many, many times over the years is silly. No one here knows what's going to happen with the Home Clans until and unless it ends up in print.
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After a while they have merged to one clan and finally cloned the true Kerensky to resurrect the old Star League... ;)
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After a while they have merged to one clan and finally cloned the true Kerensky to resurrect the old Star League... ;)
IMHO it will be quite interesting what they will do with the Bloodheritage of Jennifer Winson. She was very likely the last of the Cameron (incest child of Richard Cameron and his younger sister Helena).
This might give the Home Clans a legal claim to the Star League throne.
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IMHO it will be quite interesting what they will do with the Bloodheritage of Jennifer Winson. She was very likely the last of the Cameron (incest child of Richard Cameron and his younger sister Helena).
This might give the Home Clans a legal claim to the Star League throne.
:cool:
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IMHO it will be quite interesting what they will do with the Bloodheritage of Jennifer Winson. She was very likely the last of the Cameron (incest child of Richard Cameron and his younger sister Helena).
This might give the Home Clans a legal claim to the Star League throne.
Or the other side, the last survivng spawn of Amaris. We might never know
Also, in terms of trials: pre Invasion the Clan society was a society which never had a quiet minute. Remember that example in the Wars of Reaving? One trial results in more trials because the Clan that lost something might just have to start another trial to meet their needs as most Clans couldn't even meet the demands of one month (except the Invaders and the Diamond Sharks). The main question is of course if they will slowly back away from this sort of society. On the one hand it kept their warriors sharp as they were basically in an endless cycle of battle without the fear of ever really destroying the support base. That came after they lost the Refusal trial when Clans suddenly took it to the extreme by destroying the objective they fought over. The main question will be if they can keep that genie in the bottle for the future.
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Even if the Home Clans are aware of Jennifer Winson's possible true origins (remember, it's not explicitly canon that she's even a Cameron, it's just an in-universe theory, and a secret at that), I highly doubt that after the Wars of Reaving, Alaric (or any Inner Sphere Clanner for that matter) will give the time of day to some silly Home Clan legal challenge. If the Home Clans want to claim the Star League throne, they're gonna have to fight for it. And that can only end one way: mutually-assured destruction and possibly the final end of the Clans.
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I do not think that the Clans know that Jennifer Winson might have been the last of the Camerons. Neither I think the Wolves would have given the Coyotes this Blood Heritage / Blood House if they knew. It would have been far to precious.
But if it might prove true ...
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If it should prove true, it wouldn't matter in the slightest. The Spheroid Clans and the Home Clans don't even acknowledge each other anymore. The only legal standing such a claim would have would have to come from a Trial, and it's not very likely that either side is going to agree to that, not after the Wars of Reaving. The Home Clans will never be able to assert a legal claim on the Star League throne through words or politics; it'll have to come through force. And I think that scenario would ultimately result in both sides losing and this new Star League being torn asunder.
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If we ever get a new Star League. Yes we have an IlClan but the current IlClan looks pretty stillborn at the moment. Though that might be the most likely outcome. The last bastion of "pure" clans clash with the "tainted" Clans and in the end nothing will remain except the Houses who shrug and go on with their own business
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No leader - IS nor Clan - will bow for any heritage. BUT it would be important for a time after victory. For the people it might be a unifying symbol if that new Star League is led by a Cameron. To be honest, i think that name lost its magic for most people. It might be better to have a Kerensky sit on the throne. But then again there was this Wolf khan with that name and a strange merc lady - so another Kerensky might be suspicious, too.
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I expect a lot of tensions in the new Star League. Among the IS Clans many will be adverseries of the new ilClan, looking for opportunities to weaken them.
A Bloodnamed Warrior with legacies of the Camerons might be a good point of interest for these Clanners.
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New lore drop in the Clan Spaniel sourcebook. The Adder Watch first discovered Clan Burrock's Dark Caste partnership via hidden messages embedded in Clan Spaniel episodes.
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New lore drop in the Clan Spaniel sourcebook. The Adder Watch first discovered Clan Burrock's Dark Caste partnership via hidden messages embedded in Clan Spaniel episodes.
Finally, today, on this special day, we are told the true story behind ... :grin:
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Finally, today, on this special day, we are told the true story behind ... :grin:
???
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First of April ...
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New lore drop in the Clan Spaniel sourcebook. The Adder Watch first discovered Clan Burrock's Dark Caste partnership via hidden messages embedded in Clan Spaniel episodes.
Admittedly, the Clan Spaniel Sourcebook is pretty freaking awesome.
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First of April ...
But nonetheless 100% canon.
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The Star Adders were the inspiration for the whole Clan Spaniel sourcebook. For a Brush Wars product (Burrock Absorption), I was researching the details of why the Adders were Absorbing the Burrocks. But the existing source material just said "The Adders discovered that the Burrocks were collaborating with the Dark Caste." There was no information on what the Burrocks were doing, specifically, to support the Dark Caste, and no details on how the Adders discovered it.
Checking on the Adder Watch, the sources just said "They have weak tradecraft, and mostly just go to the site of a planned Trial to check the local holovid broadcasts for weather reports."
So I'm thinking...how in the world did the Adders manage to crack the case just doing that? Wait, what if the clues were in the holovid broadcasts? What shows do we know the Clans make?
And then it all came together.
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The Star Adders were the inspiration for the whole Clan Spaniel sourcebook. For a Brush Wars product (Burrock Absorption), I was researching the details of why the Adders were Absorbing the Burrocks. But the existing source material just said "The Adders discovered that the Burrocks were collaborating with the Dark Caste." There was no information on what the Burrocks were doing, specifically, to support the Dark Caste, and no details on how the Adders discovered it.
Checking on the Adder Watch, the sources just said "They have weak tradecraft, and mostly just go to the site of a planned Trial to check the local holovid broadcasts for weather reports."
So I'm thinking...how in the world did the Adders manage to crack the case just doing that? Wait, what if the clues were in the holovid broadcasts? What shows do we know the Clans make?
And then it all came together.
Thanks for a great book, Eric! The whole thing came together really nicely! I even appreciated Clan Rock Swine!
The scenarios at the back too were an extra nice touch and the personalities were absolutely inspired.
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The Star Adders were the inspiration for the whole Clan Spaniel sourcebook. For a Brush Wars product (Burrock Absorption), I was researching the details of why the Adders were Absorbing the Burrocks. But the existing source material just said "The Adders discovered that the Burrocks were collaborating with the Dark Caste." There was no information on what the Burrocks were doing, specifically, to support the Dark Caste, and no details on how the Adders discovered it.
Checking on the Adder Watch, the sources just said "They have weak tradecraft, and mostly just go to the site of a planned Trial to check the local holovid broadcasts for weather reports."
So I'm thinking...how in the world did the Adders manage to crack the case just doing that? Wait, what if the clues were in the holovid broadcasts? What shows do we know the Clans make?
And then it all came together.
Sir, you do have a fine sense of humor azn
Well, I have had another idea how the Star Adder Watch do their work, but this makes me laugh loudly.
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So is this a real book / article, quineg ?
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So is this a real book / article, quineg ?
Aff. 50 pages. Now in PDF on the store, coming to POD soonish. Canon.
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o ok, lol, I thought it was just an April Fools "talk" not actually a togue in cheek real book too
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o ok, lol, I thought it was just an April Fools "talk" not actually a togue in cheek real book too
It's not even tongue in cheek. There many, many humorous elements, but at the core it tells the story of the merchant caste's efforts to manipulate the warrior caste over the course of nearly a century, with far greater success than the scientist caste's Society.
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Interesting, will have to read :cool:
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A What if:
What if the Home clans have had the same breakdown of their HPG network as the Inner sphere has had? Would there have been the same problems and escalating conflicts?
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What if the Home clans have had the same breakdown of their HPG network as the Inner sphere has had? Would there have been the same problems and escalating conflicts?
This isn't even a what-if scenario: they kinda did experience this during the Wars of Reaving thanks to the Society, and it definitely contributed to the chaos.
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WoR is past, the What If is for the HPG Blackout of 3132.
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WoR is past, the What If is for the HPG Blackout of 3132.
We have absolutely no idea what the state of the Clan Homeworlds are in 3132, so the only way to provide an educated guess is to examine the instance where they did experience an HPG blackout, and that was during the WoR. The Blackout didn't occur in a vacuum; there were a lot of political factors that came together to make the post-Blackout period unfold as it did. The Home Clans likely would've reacted the same way they did to their WoR-era HPG issues: pulling into protective mode, with not much else changing because they're already living in extreme isolation as it is. On the other hand, they might also just eat each other alive, as every other Clan has a legitimate beef with the Adders, and they might just take the opportunity to knock down their "protectors" a peg or two while they can't coordinate.
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And that's assuming the Adders and the other Clans are still functional fifty years after the WoR; we simply don't know what's gone on in that timeframe. Like Tassa says, the surviving Clans may have simply fallen at each other tooth and nail, and there may be nothing left to worry about the 3132 blackout.
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WoR is past, the What If is for the HPG Blackout of 3132.
Personally I think whatever hit the IS HPG could not affect the Clan HPG. One item to note was that some of the IS HPGs were hit by the Societies blackout but not enough to cripple the invading Clans. Plus (for now) the Clans have isolated themselves completely including access to HPG or else there would have been hints from Occupation Clans.
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Also to consider, the Scorpion Empire which is closer to the Clan homeworlds still has functioning HPG's. If we assume that Clarion Call never reeached that far the Clan Homeworlds should be safe in that regard. If the HPG's malfunction? Then I would wager the homeworlds fall back into chaos as the Clan society is even more dependend on timely HPG orders then the Inner Sphere (unless they changed their way of life after the WoR)
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The Clan enclave system of the homeworlds meant that almost no worlds were truly self-sufficient. Some were geared toward manufacturing, others were geared toward generating food. Most Clans were surviving on a month-to-month basis in terms of figuring our their needs and moving resources to each of their respective enclaves. The WoR book covers this reality very well. In turn in that era we see, beyond what the Clan(s) leadership are doing, a lot of enclaves just starved and died with the Clan leadership having no idea what became of them until someone finally arrived in a jumpship to have a look. In many other cases local leaders and warriors took matters into their own hands, resulting in a lot of little crisis and brush fire conflicts as the local leaders, such as the highest-ranking warrior on-world, just started making independent decisions to try to help their enclave(s) survive.
If the physical infrastructure of the enclave system is unchanged, that would be the background reality of any mass HPG disruption. Regardless of who is running the show and what civilization even looks like now in the Clan Homeworlds, that would be the geographic reality. Unless they ripped everything up and redid the layout of all the infrastructure. Rather than just building on top of what's already there and changing the flags.
I think that's probably true whether it's a linear progression of the Homeworld Clans we know of. Or whether that civilization has completely transformed into some new human civilization that doesn't resemble the Clans at all.
Even if the Homeworld Clans (or whatever society followed them) learned their lesson and did a better job of stockpiling supplies (getting away from the month-to-month living). Any mass HPG disruption could still be disruptive for just so long that their stockpiles could have been depleted, and they eventually arrive at the same place in terms of problems. With things only stabilizing once courier jumpships and trade/transport had been reconnected in an effective way.
But as others have pointed out. We just don't know the reality of the Homeworlds. The Scorpion Empire's HPG situation may be a strong clue that they were not impacted. But it wouldn't be that difficult for the writers to justify a reality where some hidden HPG link between one of the Inner Sphere Clans and one of the Homeworlds, was kept intact all this time in secret and a seemingly unlikely scenario played out where the Scorpions got through it ok, but the Blackout got to the Clan Homeworlds via somebody's secret telephone.
All this will be up to the writers, and with such an information void to work with (spanning so much In-Universe Time), they can do a lot of things that would seem unlikely/improbable/shocking to us.
Personally, I don't think they'd bring the blackout to the homeworlds. But for a reason that may surprise you. I think Battletech fans are kinda tired of the whole blackout dynamic. That was something implemented... a while back now, with the full effects of it having kinda played out. It feels like it has run its course as a story arc in the universe.
I think it's actually very telling that the Scorpions seem to be ok. It's like the writers' mindset on this might be not to perpetuate this tired blackout thing any further if they don't have to. It's possible that it's begun to really just feel like a relic of the Dark Age era, which they have been eager to move forward and away from into a new era. Only holding onto the pieces of the Dark Age that they aren't able to drop due to story continuity.
That is just, let's call it intuition, from a long-time player who understands that writers like to drop past story baggage, if they feel like the fans aren't that into it anymore. We may have gotten to that point with the blackout stuff. If we aren't there now, I feel like we're headed there.