Author Topic: Ghost Bear defeats?  (Read 7224 times)

Mecha-Anchovy

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Ghost Bear defeats?
« on: 30 October 2018, 20:42:30 »
This is more of a question to help with some brainstorming or story development, but maybe you can help me, board!

What are prominent examples of the Ghost Bears being defeated, or losing significant battles? One of the useful things about BattleTech's long history is that you can pick out instances where almost any faction is badly mauled or on the ropes, and that has some pretty obvious dramatic potential for throwing players into. This is very much the case for the major Inner Sphere clans: there are scenarios where the Wolves or the Falcons really do get the stuffing kicked out of them, never mind the Jaguars or the Cats. (Not so much the Sharkfoxes or the Ravens, but let's stick to the big ones for now.)

But unfortunately I can't seem to think of many battles or wars where the Ghost Bears were genuinely on the ropes. That's a bit of a problem for running any Ghost-Bear-themed campaigns. So my question is: can you tell me some conflicts where the Ghost Bears were the underdogs, or where they were genuinely losing? Who has managed to humble the Bears, and thus, who would be an appropriately powerful or threatening enemy for Bear players to fight?

I'm primarily looking for post-Invasion material here, so while battles in the homeworld are interesting, they're not my primary interest. The difficulty I have is that most campaigns I can think of are either the Ghost Bears just crushing it, or at worst a draw, slightly favouring the Bears. How do I threaten these guys? Who has threatened these guys?

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #1 on: 30 October 2018, 21:15:50 »
Check out the first and second gb/dc war, plenty of losses are mentioned. You also have the jihad that saw them lose half their touman effectively.
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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #2 on: 30 October 2018, 21:49:39 »
They were defeated on Niles by the Hell's Horses prior to the invasion and if you read into a little bit Operation Klondike was supposed to have the Bears land on Eden with the Wolves, Falcons, and Jags but they were again beaten out by the Horses. They were the last Clan to win the OmniMech but really never seemed in danger there either. During the initial waves of the invasion they were forced to call upon the reserve Clan (Steel Viper) for support in garrisoning their Occupation Zone.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #3 on: 30 October 2018, 21:57:17 »
Check out the first and second gb/dc war, plenty of losses are mentioned. You also have the jihad that saw them lose half their touman effectively.

Didn't they win all those wars, though?

They decisively won the first Combine war, massacring the Alshain Avengers and taking multiple worlds, no? The tide never actually turned: the Ghost Bear conquest just slowed down, they asked for peace, and then turned around and thrashed the Horses and the Wolves. The Ghost Bears cover themselves in victory there, no?

The second Combine war isn't quite so brutal, but as far as I can tell the Ghost Bears made a much larger incursion into the Combine than the Combine made into their territory, largely defeated the DCMS on the ground, and only stopped due to civilian pressure from inside. Even then the war ended with a net gain for the Ghost Bears.

And I thought they did pretty well in the Jihad? They stayed out of it at first, then they came in as the cavalry and saved the Draconis Combine, and generally stomped all over the Combine and the Lyrans hunting Blakists. When it came to the drive on Terra, they were in the front row and were one of the most devastating allied forces.

I guess I'm not asking for small local defeats, but for an war, of significant import to them, that they were actually on the losing side of. If the best we can do for Ghost Bear defeats are minor setbacks in wars that they overall won... well, that's not quite what I'm looking for. I suppose another way of putting this would be to ask which enemies, if any, the Ghost Bears are afraid of. What overwhelms them? What puts the Ghost Bear OZ or the Dominion, depending on period, in genuine danger?

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #4 on: 30 October 2018, 21:58:10 »
While not quite their time in the Inner Sphere . . .

The Bears won the right to defend the Grand Council's decision to invade from the Wolves Trial of Refusal.  The bidding between those who wanted to defend the decision brought the odds down to 4 to 1.  They took four clusters, not sure we ever know which ones, against a single Wolf cluster from either Alpha or Beta Galaxy IIRC.  I think Khan Ulric accompanied them into the field while the Bears Khans led them.  Both Bear Khans were killed, I am not sure if one fell to Ulric or not, during a long running battle that almost saw the Wolves win a victory.  The Ghost Bear clusters were gutted though I do not know if they were 'rebuilt' with fresh blood or transfers so they could go on the invasion.  I do recall Ulric told the Star Colonel (Lara Ward?) that her cluster would be rebuilt.

It messed with the Bears during the early parts of the invasion.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #5 on: 31 October 2018, 00:16:47 »
The Battle of Holth Forest on Tukyiaad where the 7th Bear Guards got toasted?

Maelwys

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #6 on: 31 October 2018, 00:24:03 »
I guess in part its going to depend on what you mean by defeat. They may have suffered setbacks during the Jihad but ultimately won of course. Are you looking for the setbacks as well (I'm pretty sure they had setbacks. They lost at some point right?)

One instance that I can think of is in 3060 when they lost a modular factory shipment to the Wolves in Exile when they Trialed for some of the supplies off of one of the Ghost Bear's Leviathans (you can find info on this in FM: Warden clans in the WiE section.)

Jellico

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #7 on: 31 October 2018, 01:13:26 »
Didn't they win all those wars, though?

They decisively won the first Combine war, massacring the Alshain Avengers and taking multiple worlds, no? The tide never actually turned: the Ghost Bear conquest just slowed down, they asked for peace, and then turned around and thrashed the Horses and the Wolves. The Ghost Bears cover themselves in victory there, no?

The DC was encroaching on Alshain further than the Dominion was encroaching on Luthien. Uninterrupted both sides were going to bleed with the Dominion bleeding out first.

However both had enemies on their opposite borders which provided and opening for a truce. In the end only one planet changed ownership. The Nova Cats were the ones who suffered most being right on the front line.

The Horses had less than a Galaxy in the Sphere. The Wolves couldn't afford to commit that. The actions there were barely a war.


Quote

The second Combine war isn't quite so brutal, but as far as I can tell the Ghost Bears made a much larger incursion into the Combine than the Combine made into their territory, largely defeated the DCMS on the ground, and only stopped due to civilian pressure from inside. Even then the war ended with a net gain for the Ghost Bears.



The combat was more brutal. Again the Cats took it in the teeth. Again the Cats 《 Dominion 《 DC. The DC agitators achieved their aim of weakening the Cats and the status quo returned.

Quote


And I thought they did pretty well in the Jihad? They stayed out of it at first, then they came in as the cavalry and saved the Draconis Combine, and generally stomped all over the Combine and the Lyrans hunting Blakists. When it came to the drive on Terra, they were in the front row and were one of the most devastating allied forces.



As noted above. Half the Touman lost. Yes they did well and it cost them. The Dominion won in that the Dominion itself was never a battleground.

Quote

I guess I'm not asking for small local defeats, but for an war, of significant import to them, that they were actually on the losing side of. If the best we can do for Ghost Bear defeats are minor setbacks in wars that they overall won... well, that's not quite what I'm looking for. I suppose another way of putting this would be to ask which enemies, if any, the Ghost Bears are afraid of. What overwhelms them? What puts the Ghost Bear OZ or the Dominion, depending on period, in genuine danger?

What puts the Dominion in danger? An extended war with a great house. They lose that in the long term.

Frankly I am not sure what you are hoping for. By your definition none of the large factions have ever suffered a defeat. Yeah the CC lost a lot of worlds to the FC but it stiffened their spines and they were able to take back what they lost and more.
Even then factions in BT seem to be able to take stupidly big gambles and come back with no consequences if narrative demands it. See the migration of the Wolf Empire.

Really you have hit up against the paradox of the Ghost Bear player. They rarely lose at the strategic level but they rarely get epic wins and are often left completely out of the action. In all the action since 3130 they have managed to occupy part of a defenceless Prefecture, take a couple of worlds off a distracted DC, and lose a few worlds (including a factory world) to the Horses. Excitement extreme.
« Last Edit: 31 October 2018, 01:26:13 by Jellico »

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #8 on: 31 October 2018, 03:29:26 »
The 2nd gb/dc was pretty brutal, bears lost production facilities from combine raids, the nova cats thought it would be a smart idea to not grant hegira and basically wiped out a bear cluster for the salvage. Bears pretty much retaliated by unleashing the Polaris dropship and using cruise missiles to drop a city (building really but still) on the nova cat Khan.  So plenty of wins and losses only to end up with a draw. Like jellico said the cats basically got kicked in the teeth while the black dragons did their side shenanigans.
 Yes the avengers got slapped but they also came in with no real combine support so it was ultimately doomed to failure. This put the combine in a rough spot as they lost face but couldn't exactly sue for peace right away without losing more.
 In the dark ages the bears are slow to react after the wolves moved which resulted in the horses taking more world's than the bears. As of most recently the horses have taken 3 world's from the bears and the bears have taken none from the horses.
 How the horses got Jake kabrinski is a interesting tale. They trialed for the contents on the space port (or whatever it's called, it's past 1 am) and won that trial, knowing Jake kabrinski was part of the contents. The horses actually have a good watch operation that uses creative solutions. During the first gb/dc war the horses used basically dark caste to sabotage a early warning system so they would be on top of the bears before they could fully react. They only lost that battle because Fletcher was wounded and they decided getting the Khan out was was more important otherwise for all intents and purposes the horses were winning.
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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #9 on: 31 October 2018, 05:54:49 »
I guess in part its going to depend on what you mean by defeat. They may have suffered setbacks during the Jihad but ultimately won of course. Are you looking for the setbacks as well (I'm pretty sure they had setbacks. They lost at some point right?)

Basically. I suppose I have two motives here.

The first is that most factions have some spectacular defeats or overall maulings in their history, and those are often some of the most dramatically compelling parts in their history. The Wolves have the Refusal War. The Falcons have Coventry. All the Inner Sphere houses have taken it in the teeth before. The Bears don't seem to have anything like that?

Jellico might be right in that the Bears tend to have such dramatic scenarios? When they win, they do so by being patient, conservative, and picking up the pieces after other factions flame out; when they lose, it's a gradual grinding-down over time, not something exciting. The invested Bear player doesn't face horrible disasters, but neither do they get great moments of glory. So perhaps I'm looking for stories that the Bears just don't tell.

Secondly, though... broadly speaking it's that I generally find it harder to run games or stories where the players take the perspective of the obviously stronger faction. If I were running a game where the players are Davions, I wouldn't set it in the Fourth Succession War. If I were running a game where the players are Kuritas, I wouldn't set it in 3145. Not many people enjoy being a bully. It feels more exciting and interesting, to me, if the players are in some way vulnerable or face a great risk.

Naturally, with a perspective like that, it helps if the factions I'm considering often face conflicts where it seems like they might lose, or where the cost of victory will be high. Scenarios like this are often rarer with the Clans, but they do occur. Are there scenarios like this for the Ghost Bears, where the odds are genuinely against them? From the outside it can seem like the Ghost Bears have just marched in, consolidated, turtled, and then whenever someone pokes them, the Bears respond with heavy force... and they almost always win.

So - given the popularity of the Ghost Bears; as far as I can tell they're one of the most or even the most beloved Clan - I was wondering when and where the Bears have been in desperate straits. What are the Ghost Bear wars where the Bears seem vulnerable or in danger?

Jellico

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #10 on: 31 October 2018, 06:13:02 »
Well... As an example, the Falcons were not in danger during Coventry. It was just a major attack that didn't work out for them. There are lots of examples of that level battle for all factions.

An example that leaps to mind is Niles. From memory it was two Galaxies against the Horses for control of a factory and the Bears lost, heavily enough that the Frontline Galaxy involved couldn't be involved in Revival.

Revival is a good example. The Bears struggled through the first three waves. Especially once the front line moved on. A workable scenario is to take a mercenary unit behind the lines for some guerrilla warfare. It is the reason the Bears hate mercs.

A different sort of campaign during the 1st DC War would be when the Star League's Nova Cats jumped the border from Orestes and went charging up the guts of the Occupation Zone while the Bears were committed in the DC. Likewise there was a Merc group whose name escapes me who went on a merry chase through the Periphery regions of the OZ.

Then there is the invasion by the Hell's Horses. Frontline oversized Clusters vs 2nd line units. That doesn't end well. One was completely destroyed.

Moving into the Jihad one that leaps to mind was the New Earth campaign that cost the Bears Ursine Boatman.

How is that for a start?
 
 

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #11 on: 31 October 2018, 06:47:14 »
There's also the infamous leviathan trial with the nova cats that started our feud and basically gutted our navy.
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 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
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<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #12 on: 31 October 2018, 09:14:56 »
There's also the infamous leviathan trial with the nova cats that started our feud and basically gutted our navy.

That was a Pyrrhic victory for sure.


EDIT: We lost the Ursa Major to four Combine Warships (although we took out three of them), and we lost the Wars of Reaving in the Homeworlds (but we only had our enclave), and we did get hit hard by the WoB bio-Weapons and SDS drones.

But again nothing really on the ropes...
« Last Edit: 31 October 2018, 09:17:16 by Tyler Jorgensson »

Jellico

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #13 on: 31 October 2018, 16:19:41 »
Two worlds got hit. I think only one suffered permanently.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #14 on: 31 October 2018, 16:32:23 »
All my books are packed in boxes am I'm personally dying to go rip open said boxes to give my information with quotes and stuff....

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #15 on: 31 October 2018, 20:28:18 »
We lost the Ursa Major to four Combine Warships (although we took out three of them), and we lost the Wars of Reaving in the Homeworlds (but we only had our enclave), and we did get hit hard by the WoB bio-Weapons and SDS drones.

One Nightlord versus two Kyushus, an Inazuma, and a Tatsumaki. As far as I can tell, the Nightlord was destroyed, but it took out one Kyushu and the Tatsumaki. The Inazuma escaped heavily damaged, and it looks like it was the final Kyushu, the Draconis Rift, that managed to take out the Ursa Major.

I mean, the Ursa Major was outmassed over one and a half times over, successfully ambushed, and even then it managed to account for itself one-for-one in terms of tonnage, and the victorious DCA ships limped away badly damaged.

If that's what you call a decisive defeat, then I hope my factions enjoy many such defeats!   ;)

(Er, to clarify tone on the internet, that's meant to be in good humour. I did enjoy looking up and reading about that battle again, and it makes me sad that there aren't WarShips in BattleTech any more. It is a clear defeat for the Ghost Bears, so it is what I asking for, but it's not a particularly embarrassing or decisive one. The Ursa Major definitely gave as good as it got.)

SethsMatches

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #16 on: 01 November 2018, 10:31:17 »
To take a stab at it, if you're looking for a tough and risky Ghost Bear fight I'd suggest something in the Jihad during Scour. Yes the bears were 'winning' but at horrific cost and increasing risk of burnout and collapse, at least on a unit/cluster level. My impression of The Bears in the Jihad is that they just threw new forces into the grinder to maintain their momentum. Fortunately their reserves were greater than the surrounded Blakists.

Maybe give the players a campaign where no matter how hard they fight the bad guys, who are getting more and more desperate, their enemies just never break and keep forcing the players to do more with steadily less and less until they are in real danger of losing everything, but they HAVE to keep going or else: the civilians will be torched/allies overwhelmed/the nukes will be launched/the bioweapon will escape to the jumpoint for use elsewhere/...

Essentially something along the lines of "Why. Won't. You. Die!" The players watch their own resources steadily deplete with insufficient replacement ("No you don't get all your salvage. The rest of the touman is also bleeding and will be using it. You must make do. Seyla.")... and then Manei Domini show up just when they're at their weakest.

At least that's a campaign I'd sign up to play :-p
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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #17 on: 05 November 2018, 07:25:18 »
Besides the Battle of Niles versus the Hell`s Horses, their final Expulsion from the Homeworlds and an unknown number of Trials of Possessions (et cetera) lost, there have been very few defeats of the Ghost Bears.
So far they could have the most successful battle history of all factions in the BT universe.
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Doy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #18 on: 01 January 2019, 14:11:39 »
Khan Ariel Suvorov's reforms of the Touman of Clan Goliath Scorpions have achieved initial successes in recent months as the clan triumphed in possession tests for the Ghost Bear Areas on Tokasha.

Jellico

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #19 on: 01 January 2019, 15:23:56 »
Besides the Battle of Niles versus the Hell`s Horses, their final Expulsion from the Homeworlds and an unknown number of Trials of Possessions (et cetera) lost, there have been very few defeats of the Ghost Bears.
So far they could have the most successful battle history of all factions in the BT universe.

You don't see many strategic losses. Tactical one happen all the time.

It may be perception bias but I can't remember many wins in fluffy places like TROs or fiction. Lots in histories like Field Manuals.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #20 on: 01 January 2019, 15:38:47 »
It's a funny sort of defeat, but the Bears are the first and thus far only Clan to subordinate themselves to native civilian sphereoid leadership.

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #21 on: 01 January 2019, 23:04:57 »
It's a funny sort of defeat, but the Bears are the first and thus far only Clan to subordinate themselves to native civilian sphereoid leadership.
 
 It's more like a marriage ^_^
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #22 on: 01 January 2019, 23:07:34 »
 
 It's more like a marriage ^_^

Asking for a Kitchen Pass to go Trialling with your Sibbies sounds eerily accurate.

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #23 on: 01 January 2019, 23:19:06 »
Asking for a Kitchen Pass to go Trialling with your Sibbies sounds eerily accurate.

The way it went about is fascinating to me, I seriously think the guy who would have ended up challenging Ragnar was murdered. "Drowning" while sailing sounds fishy.
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
 <Kojak> Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve with BA, But once you learn how to use 'em well they're addictive,heck, just look at what happened to Foxx ;-)
<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face

Colt Ward

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #24 on: 02 January 2019, 14:48:16 »
Not if the boat suddenly develops all sorts of half inch holes in a more or less row.
Colt Ward
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Kitsune413

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #25 on: 02 January 2019, 14:59:46 »
Because of the nature of Clan Warfare a lot of times, "Losing" a war means you're destroyed.

The great Houses can lose a war by losing vast amounts of territory. But Clans don't have vast amount of territory to lose.

The Wolves losing to the Falcons and resurrecting is kind of an outlier.

The Wolves died in that fight. Usually when a Clan dies it doesn't come back.
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Takiro

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #26 on: 02 January 2019, 16:14:47 »
The great Houses can lose a war by losing vast amounts of territory. But Clans don't have vast amount of territory to lose.

Umm, Coyote. Far have they fallen from the Golden Century where they had enclaves on a dozen worlds. Then I don't know how they survived the Reavings.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #27 on: 02 January 2019, 18:44:47 »
Then I don't know how they survived the Reavings.
Scientist caste pulled a Face/Off with the warrior caste and rolled Nat 20s on charisma the whole way through?

Doy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #28 on: 02 January 2019, 23:45:01 »
Quote
The Wolves died in that fight. Usually when a Clan dies it doesn't come back.
lol did you have explain this the Clan Burrock ?

Xeno426

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #29 on: 03 January 2019, 01:47:13 »
lol did you have explain this the Clan Burrock ?
That was part of the Society uprising, though.

Doy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #30 on: 03 January 2019, 16:41:14 »
And what you say to the Wolves under Vlad ?

...or the Survivors of the Nova Cats in the Clan Potectorate, the Fedelis from the Jaugars ?

and Even some Wolverines are alive!



Xeno426

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #31 on: 04 January 2019, 01:05:31 »
And what you say to the Wolves under Vlad ?
Plot armor, same as the Davions.

...or the Survivors of the Nova Cats in the Clan Potectorate
Wasn't that set in stone before the Cats were even written as being otherwise destroyed?
Besides, what's left is the Spirit Cats. And they're... not really the same.

the Fedelis from the Jaugars ?
A tiny little secret military force. Do they even have any Labour, Merchant or Scientist caste members with them? Hardly makes for a Clan if they don't.
There were also some remnant pieces that were part of the Society uprising as well.

and Even some Wolverines are alive!
Allegedly.

But these are all still very fringe cases. The Wolves are the only ones to separate that remained viable as their own independent faction. Even the Spirit Cats are pretty damn dependent on the Foxes within the Protectorate.
The Ice Hellions are gone. The Mandrills are gone. The Burrocks are (now) gone. The Mongoos and Widowmakers are gone.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #32 on: 12 January 2019, 11:26:49 »
It's a funny sort of defeat, but the Bears are the first and thus far only Clan to subordinate themselves to native civilian sphereoid leadership.

I realise this is a bit late, but: how so?

The Ghost Bears took over Rasalhague, and while they made a few concessions to native desires, the Ghost Bear Dominion is very clearly a Clan society that has conquered and indoctrinated a native one. The Dominion keeps the caste system, it keeps Clan trials and military experience as prerequisites for rule, the entire military class is Clan, and so on.

The very fact that today we talk about Ghost Bears and not about Rasalhagians illustrates the point, to me. When we play Dominion forces on the tabletop, we play the Ghost Bear touman: not the KungsArmé. You don't get to play the Drakøns any more: you play clusters and galaxies. That there are some native-born Rasalhagians in those clusters strikes me as approximately equivalent to there having been Rasalhagian samurai in the days of the Combine.

When I think about Clans that have effectively subordinated themselves to Spheroid leadership, regardless of civilian status or their technical legal position, I think of the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats, which were much more clearly in subordinate positions when it came to the political leadership of their respective nations. The Clan Protectorate in the new FWL might be another example. But when it comes to Rasalhague, it still seems pretty clear to me that things can only happen there if Clan Ghost Bear allows it. They are the dominant force there: the Rasalhagians live at the Ghost Bears' sufferance, whereas the Wolves-in-Exile or Nova Cats lived at the Lyrans' or Combine's sufferance.

Sorry, this has always been rather a sore spot for me, as someone who quite liked Rasalhague, and, well, does not like the Bears. At any rate, it seems rather silly to me to hold up the Rasalhague Dominion as a Ghost Bear 'defeat'. The Clan got everything it wanted; and the Rasalhagians just had to make the best of a bad situation.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #33 on: 12 January 2019, 11:39:48 »
I realise this is a bit late, but: how so?

The Ghost Bears took over Rasalhague, and while they made a few concessions to native desires, the Ghost Bear Dominion is very clearly a Clan society that has conquered and indoctrinated a native one. The Dominion keeps the caste system, it keeps Clan trials and military experience as prerequisites for rule, the entire military class is Clan, and so on.

The very fact that today we talk about Ghost Bears and not about Rasalhagians illustrates the point, to me. When we play Dominion forces on the tabletop, we play the Ghost Bear touman: not the KungsArmé. You don't get to play the Drakøns any more: you play clusters and galaxies. That there are some native-born Rasalhagians in those clusters strikes me as approximately equivalent to there having been Rasalhagian samurai in the days of the Combine.

When I think about Clans that have effectively subordinated themselves to Spheroid leadership, regardless of civilian status or their technical legal position, I think of the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats, which were much more clearly in subordinate positions when it came to the political leadership of their respective nations. The Clan Protectorate in the new FWL might be another example. But when it comes to Rasalhague, it still seems pretty clear to me that things can only happen there if Clan Ghost Bear allows it. They are the dominant force there: the Rasalhagians live at the Ghost Bears' sufferance, whereas the Wolves-in-Exile or Nova Cats lived at the Lyrans' or Combine's sufferance.

Sorry, this has always been rather a sore spot for me, as someone who quite liked Rasalhague, and, well, does not like the Bears. At any rate, it seems rather silly to me to hold up the Rasalhague Dominion as a Ghost Bear 'defeat'. The Clan got everything it wanted; and the Rasalhagians just had to make the best of a bad situation.

Are you not familiar with the 3145 lore?  Clan Ghost Bear is relegated down below being an IS House Army... it's only part of an IS Army at this point.  There are Drakons, Hussars, Freemen, regiments again... they're just called clusters is all.  Sure, the Warrior Caste is still semi-"in charge" in the Dominion's diarchy... but the larger point is so is the sphereoid civilian government.  So sure technically the Clan hasn't handed over ALL political power to the sphereoids... but they've very significantly handed over roughly half. 

Clan Ghost Bear isn't necessarily under command of the civilian government of the Dominion, but neither can they ignore its demands.  Contrast that with say the Raven Alliance, where the civilians there have little to no say over what their Clan 'partners' do.  Also compare it to the Falcon or Horses Occupation Zones... native sphereoids make up a huge part of the military (all those Drakons, Hussars, etc clusters...).  The Ghost Bear Touman at this point can't campaign without the participation and cooperation of the "KungsArmee" descendants.  The Wolf Empire is in a similar situation of being held over the barrel by the sphereoid part of its touman, but the Wolves lack the oversight of a civilian sphereoid government at least.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2019, 11:42:04 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Xeno426

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #34 on: 12 January 2019, 11:42:15 »
The KungsArmé still exists in the form of the Polar, Tundra and Taiga galaxies. The Drakøns are part of the Tundra galaxy. They effectively act as second-line galaxy formations.
However, they are still organized by Clan standards and under Clan command.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #35 on: 12 January 2019, 11:43:37 »
The KungsArmé still exists in the form of the Polar, Tundra and Taiga galaxies. The Drakøns are part of the Tundra galaxy. They effectively act as second-line galaxy formations.
However, they are still organized by Clan standards and under Clan command.

Under a unified command, yes.  Not necessarily under Clan command.  The Dominion military is organized and run by the Ghost Bears, yes. While the Ghost Bear capital is at Alshain, the executive capital is at Rasalhague.  The Prince and Khan are co-equals politically, just as Rasalhague and Alshain are the two capitals of the Dominion.  Having a civilian sphereoid holding the same rank as your Khan is unprecedented in the rest of Clan-dom.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2019, 12:09:21 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Easy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #36 on: 12 January 2019, 11:52:22 »
Hm. You raise several good points. I might reserve the strength of my own language, for the reason that, as you say, the GB Touman calls all the military shots, such that RD foreign policy must pass the scrutiny of the Khans. That said, domestic policy might not be as Clan regimented as all that. The sources are replete with examples of the Rasalhague freebirth pushing buttons and pulling strings to shape the course of GB military campaigns and political positions on various topics not immediately within the domain of military exigency. Sometimes, this is by rioting and dissident activism, but just as often, I suggest, by making the local GB garrison sleep in the dog house until they mend the error of their ways.

The trouble might be that the RD is rarely, if ever, center stage in the grand narrative, but are often more in a bailiff or deputy role under whatever person or force is 'good guys number one'. This tends to make their domestic culture somewhat opaque, not because the 'family-oriented' Khans are particularly secretive, but that the wonkiness of a reasonably well-ordered society doesn't necessarily generate alot of entertainment value or intrigue to contribute to the imperatives of an interesting crisis.

This is somewhat wordy, I haven't read all the contemporary RD stories out there, but as long as we are content to allow the RD to play the role of moral banhammers, that is, then, the reputation they will develop.

(Edited for clarity.)
« Last Edit: 12 January 2019, 14:09:48 by Easy »

Foxx Ital

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #37 on: 12 January 2019, 20:52:53 »
Under a unified command, yes.  Not necessarily under Clan command.  The Dominion military is organized and run by the Ghost Bears, yes. While the Ghost Bear capital is at Alshain, the executive capital is at Rasalhague.  The Prince and Khan are co-equals politically, just as Rasalhague and Alshain are the two capitals of the Dominion.  Having a civilian sphereoid holding the same rank as your Khan is unprecedented in the rest of Clan-dom.
Still under clan command, the clan still controls the military and they still have to pass trials of position to get in.
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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #38 on: 13 January 2019, 03:48:43 »
Are you not familiar with the 3145 lore?  Clan Ghost Bear is relegated down below being an IS House Army... it's only part of an IS Army at this point.  There are Drakons, Hussars, Freemen, regiments again... they're just called clusters is all.  Sure, the Warrior Caste is still semi-"in charge" in the Dominion's diarchy... but the larger point is so is the sphereoid civilian government.  So sure technically the Clan hasn't handed over ALL political power to the sphereoids... but they've very significantly handed over roughly half.

I feel like Xeno426 gave the same answer I would give. The former KungsArmé units were conscripted into reserve Clan galaxies, organised and trained along Clan lines, and I think fairly openly denigrated as inferior to the 'true' Clan units?

(Which I find a little amusing considering the KungsArmé's straight win in the Great Refusal - they indisputably could go toe-to-toe with frontline Clan formations and win. Though maybe the Bears feel that the Horses don't count?)

At any rate, the unit descriptions in FM:3145 suggest to me that that predominantly trueborn, Clan culture galaxies do tend to look down on the Rasalhagian forces? There is still a division, with the Ghost Bear forces evidently seeing themselves as being more prestigious, more professional, etc., than the native forces, even while at the same requiring the native forces to assimilate to Clan culture and Clan military standards. It does not look like an equal partnership to me, despite what FM:3145 and ER:3145 claim. It looks to me like an ongoing and largely successful attempt by a new Clan aristocracy to reform Rasalhagian culture along their preferred lines.

Quote
Clan Ghost Bear isn't necessarily under command of the civilian government of the Dominion, but neither can they ignore its demands.  Contrast that with say the Raven Alliance, where the civilians there have little to no say over what their Clan 'partners' do.  Also compare it to the Falcon or Horses Occupation Zones... native sphereoids make up a huge part of the military (all those Drakons, Hussars, etc clusters...).  The Ghost Bear Touman at this point can't campaign without the participation and cooperation of the "KungsArmee" descendants.

To what extent, though, do we see meaningful Rasalhagian resistance to or control over Ghost Bear priorities?

I agree that the Dominion is not as bad as the Wolf Empire, Raven Alliance, or any of the OZs, but at the same time that's not exactly something worth bragging about. Part of it is just an OOU irritation of mine: I feel like the Wolves, Falcons, etc., are still more-or-less openly written as villains. They're the bad guys, we know they're the bad guys, and there's no pretense otherwise. Whereas it can feel like the Bears are attributed some sort of moral high ground, even if the only major difference is that they've been more successful in taking over and integrating with a conquered populace.

I guess I also find it rather jarring because, as I understood it, one of the defining cultural traits of Rasalhague was this long-term resistance to Combine domination. It just... feels incredibly uncomfortable, to me, for these people with this history of resistance to the imposed culture of a militarist, caste-based foreign aristocracy to seemingly just roll over when, after successfully obtaining their independence after centuries of trial, they are conquered by another militarist caste-based foreign aristocracy. From an OOU perspective, I wonder if it's just that the Bears are also vaguely Scandinavian, so rolling together the two Scandinavian factions makes sense? I suppose from an IU perspective the argument would be that, unlike the Combine, the Bears showed a degree of respect for native custom and proved willing to compromise, to the extent of actually surrendering a reasonable degree of political power?

Hm. You raise several good points. I might reserve the strength of my own language, for the reason that, as you say, the GB Touman calls all the military shots, such that RD foreign policy must pass the scrutiny of the Khans.

That was more-or-less my sense. Are there various subtle pressures the Rasalhagians can exert to try to moderate or sway Bear policy? Yes. But if the Bears are determined to do something, they will do it, and the Rasalhagians can't stop them. We know where power ultimately lies in the Dominion.

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #39 on: 13 January 2019, 06:14:19 »
(Which I find a little amusing considering the KungsArmé's straight win in the Great Refusal - they indisputably could go toe-to-toe with frontline Clan formations and win. Though maybe the Bears feel that the Horses don't count?)

If they really felt that way, a frontline Ghost Bear galaxy is not something that's hard to find in the Rasalhague Dominion.

Elmoth

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #40 on: 13 January 2019, 09:22:59 »
Yup. Pretty much that: the rashalaguians going along the bears breaks my suspension of disbelief. If I played in that space area (we tend to go for south and west of the galaxy) I would certainly go for a widespread active and successful guerrilla/terrorist movement all over the place taking a major toll on the bears and making heir successful Dominion quite a nightmare to run. Would also explain why the bears are depicts as successful and at the same time never play any significant role in clan politics. They are too occupied in their conquered area to be able to project much influence abroad.

Jellico

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #41 on: 13 January 2019, 16:23:46 »
Historically extended guerrilla activity requires political instability, lack of economic development, and outside interference.

CGB spent 20 years providing eliminating all three before political union and they still had resistance.

They also had a generation grow up under CGB propaganda. Population numbers also meant that seeing an actual Ghost Bear member was like seeing a national level politician. Who are they going to be blaming for the pot holes in the street? Not the far off invaders that have provided the best economic times ever and essentially no invasions. As a plus the Bears seem to be encouraging Rasalhagian culture. Targeting Rasalhagian worlds for recapture. Rasalhagian themed Mechs. Promoting Rasalhagian heros. And that is the stuff we can see in novels, TROs, and source books.

OTOH the FRR rump is rapidly becoming a side department in ComStar/the Star League. Their mid 60s run through the Wolf OZ was as much about proving they still exist as anything. Depression and suicide in the general population is common and rising.

The math is pretty easy. Survival to fight another day means dealing with the Bears. Ironically for me the Rasalhagians submitting is the believable side. The writers at the time knew it would be had to swallow and left a lot of hooks. The Bears OTOH? How were they, a society based on might is right, convinced to give up a position of power?

Easy

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Re: Ghost Bear defeats?
« Reply #42 on: 16 January 2019, 11:48:15 »
Historically extended guerrilla activity requires political instability, lack of economic development, and outside interference.

CGB spent 20 years providing eliminating all three before political union and they still had resistance.

They also had a generation grow up under CGB propaganda. Population numbers also meant that seeing an actual Ghost Bear member was like seeing a national level politician. Who are they going to be blaming for the pot holes in the street? Not the far off invaders that have provided the best economic times ever and essentially no invasions. As a plus the Bears seem to be encouraging Rasalhagian culture. Targeting Rasalhagian worlds for recapture. Rasalhagian themed Mechs. Promoting Rasalhagian heros. And that is the stuff we can see in novels, TROs, and source books.

OTOH the FRR rump is rapidly becoming a side department in ComStar/the Star League. Their mid 60s run through the Wolf OZ was as much about proving they still exist as anything. Depression and suicide in the general population is common and rising.

The math is pretty easy. Survival to fight another day means dealing with the Bears. Ironically for me the Rasalhagians submitting is the believable side. The writers at the time knew it would be had to swallow and left a lot of hooks. The Bears OTOH? How were they, a society based on might is right, convinced to give up a position of power?


This, so much this. Does the FRR-In-Exile on Tukkayid really wait for a war for dozens of Rasalhage worlds with ComStar Armies, or do they go to the bargaining table with freebirth administrators and diplomats under a Rasalhague letterhead, under the paternal "guidance" of the Khans?

I think as the FedCom Civil War rages, and the Bears and the Combine struggle for economic dominance, the Rasalhjague felt compelled by economic necessity that the Ghost Bears actually possess the worlds upon which they lay the foundation of the economy.
« Last Edit: 16 January 2019, 12:14:53 by Easy »