Ghost Bear defeats?

[Mecha-Anchovy]

This is more of a question to help with some brainstorming or story development, but maybe you can help me, board!

What are prominent examples of the Ghost Bears being defeated, or losing significant battles? One of the useful things about BattleTech's long history is that you can pick out instances where almost any faction is badly mauled or on the ropes, and that has some pretty obvious dramatic potential for throwing players into. This is very much the case for the major Inner Sphere clans: there are scenarios where the Wolves or the Falcons really do get the stuffing kicked out of them, never mind the Jaguars or the Cats. (Not so much the Sharkfoxes or the Ravens, but let's stick to the big ones for now.)

But unfortunately I can't seem to think of many battles or wars where the Ghost Bears were genuinely on the ropes. That's a bit of a problem for running any Ghost-Bear-themed campaigns. So my question is: can you tell me some conflicts where the Ghost Bears were the underdogs, or where they were genuinely losing? Who has managed to humble the Bears, and thus, who would be an appropriately powerful or threatening enemy for Bear players to fight?

I'm primarily looking for post-Invasion material here, so while battles in the homeworld are interesting, they're not my primary interest. The difficulty I have is that most campaigns I can think of are either the Ghost Bears just crushing it, or at worst a draw, slightly favouring the Bears. How do I threaten these guys? Who has threatened these guys?

[Foxx Ital]

Check out the first and second gb/dc war, plenty of losses are mentioned. You also have the jihad that saw them lose half their touman effectively.

[Takiro]

They were defeated on Niles by the Hell's Horses prior to the invasion and if you read into a little bit Operation Klondike was supposed to have the Bears land on Eden with the Wolves, Falcons, and Jags but they were again beaten out by the Horses. They were the last Clan to win the OmniMech but really never seemed in danger there either. During the initial waves of the invasion they were forced to call upon the reserve Clan (Steel Viper) for support in garrisoning their Occupation Zone.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Check out the first and second gb/dc war, plenty of losses are mentioned. You also have the jihad that saw them lose half their touman effectively.

Didn't they win all those wars, though?

They decisively won the first Combine war, massacring the Alshain Avengers and taking multiple worlds, no? The tide never actually turned: the Ghost Bear conquest just slowed down, they asked for peace, and then turned around and thrashed the Horses and the Wolves. The Ghost Bears cover themselves in victory there, no?

The second Combine war isn't quite so brutal, but as far as I can tell the Ghost Bears made a much larger incursion into the Combine than the Combine made into their territory, largely defeated the DCMS on the ground, and only stopped due to civilian pressure from inside. Even then the war ended with a net gain for the Ghost Bears.

And I thought they did pretty well in the Jihad? They stayed out of it at first, then they came in as the cavalry and saved the Draconis Combine, and generally stomped all over the Combine and the Lyrans hunting Blakists. When it came to the drive on Terra, they were in the front row and were one of the most devastating allied forces.

I guess I'm not asking for small local defeats, but for an war, of significant import to them, that they were actually on the losing side of. If the best we can do for Ghost Bear defeats are minor setbacks in wars that they overall won... well, that's not quite what I'm looking for. I suppose another way of putting this would be to ask which enemies, if any, the Ghost Bears are afraid of. What overwhelms them? What puts the Ghost Bear OZ or the Dominion, depending on period, in genuine danger?

[Colt Ward]

While not quite their time in the Inner Sphere . . .

The Bears won the right to defend the Grand Council's decision to invade from the Wolves Trial of Refusal.  The bidding between those who wanted to defend the decision brought the odds down to 4 to 1.  They took four clusters, not sure we ever know which ones, against a single Wolf cluster from either Alpha or Beta Galaxy IIRC.  I think Khan Ulric accompanied them into the field while the Bears Khans led them.  Both Bear Khans were killed, I am not sure if one fell to Ulric or not, during a long running battle that almost saw the Wolves win a victory.  The Ghost Bear clusters were gutted though I do not know if they were 'rebuilt' with fresh blood or transfers so they could go on the invasion.  I do recall Ulric told the Star Colonel (Lara Ward?) that her cluster would be rebuilt.

It messed with the Bears during the early parts of the invasion.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

The Battle of Holth Forest on Tukyiaad where the 7th Bear Guards got toasted?

[Maelwys]

I guess in part its going to depend on what you mean by defeat. They may have suffered setbacks during the Jihad but ultimately won of course. Are you looking for the setbacks as well (I'm pretty sure they had setbacks. They lost at some point right?)

One instance that I can think of is in 3060 when they lost a modular factory shipment to the Wolves in Exile when they Trialed for some of the supplies off of one of the Ghost Bear's Leviathans (you can find info on this in FM: Warden clans in the WiE section.)

[Jellico]

Didn't they win all those wars, though?

They decisively won the first Combine war, massacring the Alshain Avengers and taking multiple worlds, no? The tide never actually turned: the Ghost Bear conquest just slowed down, they asked for peace, and then turned around and thrashed the Horses and the Wolves. The Ghost Bears cover themselves in victory there, no?

The DC was encroaching on Alshain further than the Dominion was encroaching on Luthien. Uninterrupted both sides were going to bleed with the Dominion bleeding out first.

However both had enemies on their opposite borders which provided and opening for a truce. In the end only one planet changed ownership. The Nova Cats were the ones who suffered most being right on the front line.

The Horses had less than a Galaxy in the Sphere. The Wolves couldn't afford to commit that. The actions there were barely a war.

The second Combine war isn't quite so brutal, but as far as I can tell the Ghost Bears made a much larger incursion into the Combine than the Combine made into their territory, largely defeated the DCMS on the ground, and only stopped due to civilian pressure from inside. Even then the war ended with a net gain for the Ghost Bears.

The combat was more brutal. Again the Cats took it in the teeth. Again the Cats 《 Dominion 《 DC. The DC agitators achieved their aim of weakening the Cats and the status quo returned.

And I thought they did pretty well in the Jihad? They stayed out of it at first, then they came in as the cavalry and saved the Draconis Combine, and generally stomped all over the Combine and the Lyrans hunting Blakists. When it came to the drive on Terra, they were in the front row and were one of the most devastating allied forces.

As noted above. Half the Touman lost. Yes they did well and it cost them. The Dominion won in that the Dominion itself was never a battleground.

I guess I'm not asking for small local defeats, but for an war, of significant import to them, that they were actually on the losing side of. If the best we can do for Ghost Bear defeats are minor setbacks in wars that they overall won... well, that's not quite what I'm looking for. I suppose another way of putting this would be to ask which enemies, if any, the Ghost Bears are afraid of. What overwhelms them? What puts the Ghost Bear OZ or the Dominion, depending on period, in genuine danger?

What puts the Dominion in danger? An extended war with a great house. They lose that in the long term.

Frankly I am not sure what you are hoping for. By your definition none of the large factions have ever suffered a defeat. Yeah the CC lost a lot of worlds to the FC but it stiffened their spines and they were able to take back what they lost and more.
Even then factions in BT seem to be able to take stupidly big gambles and come back with no consequences if narrative demands it. See the migration of the Wolf Empire.

Really you have hit up against the paradox of the Ghost Bear player. They rarely lose at the strategic level but they rarely get epic wins and are often left completely out of the action. In all the action since 3130 they have managed to occupy part of a defenceless Prefecture, take a couple of worlds off a distracted DC, and lose a few worlds (including a factory world) to the Horses. Excitement extreme.

[Foxx Ital]

The 2nd gb/dc was pretty brutal, bears lost production facilities from combine raids, the nova cats thought it would be a smart idea to not grant hegira and basically wiped out a bear cluster for the salvage. Bears pretty much retaliated by unleashing the Polaris dropship and using cruise missiles to drop a city (building really but still) on the nova cat Khan.  So plenty of wins and losses only to end up with a draw. Like jellico said the cats basically got kicked in the teeth while the black dragons did their side shenanigans.
 Yes the avengers got slapped but they also came in with no real combine support so it was ultimately doomed to failure. This put the combine in a rough spot as they lost face but couldn't exactly sue for peace right away without losing more.
 In the dark ages the bears are slow to react after the wolves moved which resulted in the horses taking more world's than the bears. As of most recently the horses have taken 3 world's from the bears and the bears have taken none from the horses.
 How the horses got Jake kabrinski is a interesting tale. They trialed for the contents on the space port (or whatever it's called, it's past 1 am) and won that trial, knowing Jake kabrinski was part of the contents. The horses actually have a good watch operation that uses creative solutions. During the first gb/dc war the horses used basically dark caste to sabotage a early warning system so they would be on top of the bears before they could fully react. They only lost that battle because Fletcher was wounded and they decided getting the Khan out was was more important otherwise for all intents and purposes the horses were winning.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

I guess in part its going to depend on what you mean by defeat. They may have suffered setbacks during the Jihad but ultimately won of course. Are you looking for the setbacks as well (I'm pretty sure they had setbacks. They lost at some point right?)

Basically. I suppose I have two motives here.

The first is that most factions have some spectacular defeats or overall maulings in their history, and those are often some of the most dramatically compelling parts in their history. The Wolves have the Refusal War. The Falcons have Coventry. All the Inner Sphere houses have taken it in the teeth before. The Bears don't seem to have anything like that?

Jellico might be right in that the Bears tend to have such dramatic scenarios? When they win, they do so by being patient, conservative, and picking up the pieces after other factions flame out; when they lose, it's a gradual grinding-down over time, not something exciting. The invested Bear player doesn't face horrible disasters, but neither do they get great moments of glory. So perhaps I'm looking for stories that the Bears just don't tell.

Secondly, though... broadly speaking it's that I generally find it harder to run games or stories where the players take the perspective of the obviously stronger faction. If I were running a game where the players are Davions, I wouldn't set it in the Fourth Succession War. If I were running a game where the players are Kuritas, I wouldn't set it in 3145. Not many people enjoy being a bully. It feels more exciting and interesting, to me, if the players are in some way vulnerable or face a great risk.

Naturally, with a perspective like that, it helps if the factions I'm considering often face conflicts where it seems like they might lose, or where the cost of victory will be high. Scenarios like this are often rarer with the Clans, but they do occur. Are there scenarios like this for the Ghost Bears, where the odds are genuinely against them? From the outside it can seem like the Ghost Bears have just marched in, consolidated, turtled, and then whenever someone pokes them, the Bears respond with heavy force... and they almost always win.

So - given the popularity of the Ghost Bears; as far as I can tell they're one of the most or even the most beloved Clan - I was wondering when and where the Bears have been in desperate straits. What are the Ghost Bear wars where the Bears seem vulnerable or in danger?

[Jellico]

Well... As an example, the Falcons were not in danger during Coventry. It was just a major attack that didn't work out for them. There are lots of examples of that level battle for all factions.

An example that leaps to mind is Niles. From memory it was two Galaxies against the Horses for control of a factory and the Bears lost, heavily enough that the Frontline Galaxy involved couldn't be involved in Revival.

Revival is a good example. The Bears struggled through the first three waves. Especially once the front line moved on. A workable scenario is to take a mercenary unit behind the lines for some guerrilla warfare. It is the reason the Bears hate mercs.

A different sort of campaign during the 1st DC War would be when the Star League's Nova Cats jumped the border from Orestes and went charging up the guts of the Occupation Zone while the Bears were committed in the DC. Likewise there was a Merc group whose name escapes me who went on a merry chase through the Periphery regions of the OZ.

Then there is the invasion by the Hell's Horses. Frontline oversized Clusters vs 2nd line units. That doesn't end well. One was completely destroyed.

Moving into the Jihad one that leaps to mind was the New Earth campaign that cost the Bears Ursine Boatman.

How is that for a start?
 
 

[Foxx Ital]

There's also the infamous leviathan trial with the nova cats that started our feud and basically gutted our navy.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

There's also the infamous leviathan trial with the nova cats that started our feud and basically gutted our navy.

That was a Pyrrhic victory for sure.


EDIT: We lost the Ursa Major to four Combine Warships (although we took out three of them), and we lost the Wars of Reaving in the Homeworlds (but we only had our enclave), and we did get hit hard by the WoB bio-Weapons and SDS drones.

But again nothing really on the ropes...

[Jellico]

Two worlds got hit. I think only one suffered permanently.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

All my books are packed in boxes am I'm personally dying to go rip open said boxes to give my information with quotes and stuff....

[Mecha-Anchovy]

We lost the Ursa Major to four Combine Warships (although we took out three of them), and we lost the Wars of Reaving in the Homeworlds (but we only had our enclave), and we did get hit hard by the WoB bio-Weapons and SDS drones.

One Nightlord versus two Kyushus, an Inazuma, and a Tatsumaki. As far as I can tell, the Nightlord was destroyed, but it took out one Kyushu and the Tatsumaki. The Inazuma escaped heavily damaged, and it looks like it was the final Kyushu, the Draconis Rift, that managed to take out the Ursa Major.

I mean, the Ursa Major was outmassed over one and a half times over, successfully ambushed, and even then it managed to account for itself one-for-one in terms of tonnage, and the victorious DCA ships limped away badly damaged.

If that's what you call a decisive defeat, then I hope my factions enjoy many such defeats!   ;)

(Er, to clarify tone on the internet, that's meant to be in good humour. I did enjoy looking up and reading about that battle again, and it makes me sad that there aren't WarShips in BattleTech any more. It is a clear defeat for the Ghost Bears, so it is what I asking for, but it's not a particularly embarrassing or decisive one. The Ursa Major definitely gave as good as it got.)

[SethsMatches]

To take a stab at it, if you're looking for a tough and risky Ghost Bear fight I'd suggest something in the Jihad during Scour. Yes the bears were 'winning' but at horrific cost and increasing risk of burnout and collapse, at least on a unit/cluster level. My impression of The Bears in the Jihad is that they just threw new forces into the grinder to maintain their momentum. Fortunately their reserves were greater than the surrounded Blakists.

Maybe give the players a campaign where no matter how hard they fight the bad guys, who are getting more and more desperate, their enemies just never break and keep forcing the players to do more with steadily less and less until they are in real danger of losing everything, but they HAVE to keep going or else: the civilians will be torched/allies overwhelmed/the nukes will be launched/the bioweapon will escape to the jumpoint for use elsewhere/...

Essentially something along the lines of "Why. Won't. You. Die!" The players watch their own resources steadily deplete with insufficient replacement ("No you don't get all your salvage. The rest of the touman is also bleeding and will be using it. You must make do. Seyla.")... and then Manei Domini show up just when they're at their weakest.

At least that's a campaign I'd sign up to play :-p

[Gaiiten]

Besides the Battle of Niles versus the Hell`s Horses, their final Expulsion from the Homeworlds and an unknown number of Trials of Possessions (et cetera) lost, there have been very few defeats of the Ghost Bears.
So far they could have the most successful battle history of all factions in the BT universe.

[Doy]

Khan Ariel Suvorov's reforms of the Touman of Clan Goliath Scorpions have achieved initial successes in recent months as the clan triumphed in possession tests for the Ghost Bear Areas on Tokasha.

[Jellico]

Besides the Battle of Niles versus the Hell`s Horses, their final Expulsion from the Homeworlds and an unknown number of Trials of Possessions (et cetera) lost, there have been very few defeats of the Ghost Bears.
So far they could have the most successful battle history of all factions in the BT universe.

You don't see many strategic losses. Tactical one happen all the time.

It may be perception bias but I can't remember many wins in fluffy places like TROs or fiction. Lots in histories like Field Manuals.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's a funny sort of defeat, but the Bears are the first and thus far only Clan to subordinate themselves to native civilian sphereoid leadership.

[Foxx Ital]

It's a funny sort of defeat, but the Bears are the first and thus far only Clan to subordinate themselves to native civilian sphereoid leadership.

 
 It's more like a marriage ^_^

[Tai Dai Cultist]

 
 It's more like a marriage ^_^

Asking for a Kitchen Pass to go Trialling with your Sibbies sounds eerily accurate.

[Foxx Ital]

Asking for a Kitchen Pass to go Trialling with your Sibbies sounds eerily accurate.

The way it went about is fascinating to me, I seriously think the guy who would have ended up challenging Ragnar was murdered. "Drowning" while sailing sounds fishy.

[Colt Ward]

Not if the boat suddenly develops all sorts of half inch holes in a more or less row.

[Kitsune413]

Because of the nature of Clan Warfare a lot of times, "Losing" a war means you're destroyed.

The great Houses can lose a war by losing vast amounts of territory. But Clans don't have vast amount of territory to lose.

The Wolves losing to the Falcons and resurrecting is kind of an outlier.

The Wolves died in that fight. Usually when a Clan dies it doesn't come back.

[Takiro]

The great Houses can lose a war by losing vast amounts of territory. But Clans don't have vast amount of territory to lose.

Umm, Coyote. Far have they fallen from the Golden Century where they had enclaves on a dozen worlds. Then I don't know how they survived the Reavings.

[Caedis Animus]

Then I don't know how they survived the Reavings.

Scientist caste pulled a Face/Off with the warrior caste and rolled Nat 20s on charisma the whole way through?

[Doy]

The Wolves died in that fight. Usually when a Clan dies it doesn't come back.

lol did you have explain this the Clan Burrock ?

[Xeno426]

lol did you have explain this the Clan Burrock ?

That was part of the Society uprising, though.