...Just the way you are

[Ian Sharpe]

I've yet to find any feasible way to improve upon the TR1 Wraith...

Clantech.  Its why my character went to Huntress with Kingston's. ;)

[Kojak]

I think the one way in which the classic Falconer could be improved is by giving it light ferro to buff up the armor a little bit more. If it weren't for that, it'd be on my list.

[Kovax]

I'd like to add the Whitworth WTH-1 to the list.  The mix of LRMs and MLs are a "textbook example" of a "bracket fire" design.  I don't see any way to improve it (at least using 3025 tech) that would improve it.  The 3050 "upgrade" is a wonderful example of how to do it entirely wrong.

I'd have to agree with the posts above for both the WLF-2 and the original Vixen (Incubus) Clan 2nd line design; I'd happily run them "as-is".  The WHM-6D could stand a few placement changes, but the combination of systems is hard to fault.

[JoeJones]

Ti Ts'ang 9H. It has a near-perfect mix of speed, armor, and heat generators lasers to keep it in melee range with a chosen enemy and chopping said enemy with its TSM-powered hatchet. (7/11/6 using a 24 damage melee attack? Yes, please.)

[JadeHellbringer]

ON-2M Orion (MAYBE change out the lasers for six standard mediums)
Arcas (1 and 2- what a beast)
FLE-17 Flea (I know, I know- but look at the job it's supposed to do, and it just SHINES)
Thunderbolt IIC

[ShadowRaven]

PXH-1D Phoenix Hawk. It does it's job so very well.
WLF-1 Wolfhound. Brawler extrordinare
CES-3R Ceasar
GLT-3N/8D Guillotine
AWS-8Q/9Q Awesome
ZEU-6S Zeus
DVS-2 Devastator. It lives up to it's name
Pretty well every Marauder II

[Iron Mongoose]

No, you're right. I was confused. I don't know my own mind. I see that now.

Oh wait, no, that's not the case, in fact.

I know you, and in fact the larger part of the respondants here, to be people who know how to read entire posts, and for you and for people I have confidance that you infact do know your own mind on this matter.

But, I also know the internet, and for the respondants who I don't know so much about, I think you would agree that its now always best to assume that all your words have been read and your wishest taken fully to heart.

And of course, its in my mind equaly as important to qustion and to debate these choices as it is to simply list them.  Its easy enough just to say the name of a mech and to say, "this mech I like."  But to say why, this is not as easy.

[Grave]

Now, I love the Awesome to death (we all do) but would the 8Q not have been better with one or two points more foward armor? (Yes, I've been defending the high rear armor for years and I still do, but if we all just got along what fun would this be?)

Would the Grasshopper not have been better with some SRMs to complement the in fighting weapons rather than the token LRM5 for closing, or even better as a pure energy mech?

I don't really think so.  In 3025 play the LRM launcher gives the 'hopper much needed reach, is less heat intensive than another energy weapon would be, is not included in bracket fire so the 'Mech still stays cool, and provides a decent punch that the similarly weighted SRM 2 simply wouldn't (because of range more than anything).

No, I like that good old stock Grasshopper.

[Zombyra]

Register yet another vote for the Wolverine WVR-6M  :-*

Also, the Whitworth-1, well bracketed, plenty of armor, and good maneuverability for it's job.

Also in my SW stable, the
MON-67 Mongoose-a great light mech for it's era, good armor, maneuverability and weapons, i'll easily take it unmodified, and usually with preference.
CPLT-C1 Catapult-some people think it needs more ammo, but i'll take it right out of the box every time.  I think it's got just enough ammo to run out about the time the hits start going internal, and plenty of lasers and HS to stick around for the after-party.  I don't have to use this mech as is, I GET to use this mech as is  }:)

[Demos]

Pretty well every Marauder II

Even the classic 3050's MAD-5A?
With 29 SHS and CASE in the wrong torso?  ???

[bakija]

I'd like to add the Whitworth WTH-1 to the list.  The mix of LRMs and MLs are a "textbook example" of a "bracket fire" design.  I don't see any way to improve it (at least using 3025 tech) that would improve it.  The 3050 "upgrade" is a wonderful example of how to do it entirely wrong.

Well, if you took the 2xLRM10 (which are the least effective of the LRMs) and replaced them with 4xLRM5 and then 2 more tons of something useful (heat sinks or armor, likely), it would be more effective than it is currently is. Same damage potential, more chances to hit, less heat generation.

[ShadowRaven]

Even the classic 3050's MAD-5A?
With 29 SHS and CASE in the wrong torso?  ???

oh...yeah, forgot about that particular screw up. Must have blocked it completley from my mind....someone was drinking the good stuff when they designed that one.

[Sellsword]

Warlord 2D - Perfect Bracket Fire & Zombie Mech.

Battlemaster 4S - I like everything about this mech and wouldn't change a thing.  Light Engine w/Case helps with survivability.  4/6 is decent speed. Small Pulse for anti Infantry and Battle Amor, 2 Tons of Ammo for the SRMS (Infernos and Standard).  Good use of Standard Med Lasers and ER Med Lasers to help with the heat load.  This is my idea of the perfect line mech (sure its an assault but I'm for House Steiner).

Shadow Hawk 12C - I can't help but think that this is the mech that the Shadow Hawk has always wanted to be.  Though it doesn't do much more damage than the 3050 version, the damage is more concentrated, it moves faster, makes good use of the MML and finally gets a main gun worth talking about.  Some people might not like the jump jet profile but I haven't had any problems with it.

[Sir Chaos]

I don't really think so.  In 3025 play the LRM launcher gives the 'hopper much needed reach, is less heat intensive than another energy weapon would be, is not included in bracket fire so the 'Mech still stays cool, and provides a decent punch that the similarly weighted SRM 2 simply wouldn't (because of range more than anything).

No, I like that good old stock Grasshopper.

I beg to differ. The LRM-5 does, on average, a whopping 3 points of damage, which might make a 20-ton Mech careful, but not anything that a heavy Mech is likely to face. A SRM-4, which weights the same as an LRM-5, does 4-6 points of damage most of the time, can hit several locations and thus seek crits, and thus complements the general short-range armament. Even switching it and the ammo for a laser and two more heat sinks (or a laser, a heat sink and a ton of armor) would be an improvement.

Complementing other weapons (like in the Bushwhacker, the Bandersnatch or even the Vindicator), an LRM-5 can be a useful weapon, or even as a delivery system for Thunder or Mine-Clearance ammo - but not as a weapon providing reach for anything over 40 tons or so (and it´s marginal enough on the Assassin).

[Kovax]

Well, if you took the 2xLRM10 (which are the least effective of the LRMs) and replaced them with 4xLRM5 and then 2 more tons of something useful (heat sinks or armor, likely), it would be more effective than it is currently is. Same damage potential, more chances to hit, less heat generation.

The average of 3 point groups is OK for sandpaper, but doing a 5+1 on average tends to punch holes faster.  I'll take the "inefficient" 10-racks over the 5's in most cases, this one included.  If the tonnage supported 15's, without gimping something else, I'd switch in a heartbeat, but I consider the dual 10's "as good as it gets" on the WTH-1, at least in my experience.

[Ferrosol]

Awesome 8Q
Awesome 9Q
Wraith TR 1
Orion 2M
Locust 6M
all fine examples of good FWL designs

[Diplominator]

A few come to mind:

BLR-2Dr Warlord: It's a great TSM design, getting to the appropriate level easily and capable of utterly shredding stuff up close, then punching like gauss rifles. If you stay at range, you've still got the PPCs to worry about. All with 94% armor and a fusion engine.

Flamberge 2: I'm not counting the fact that it would lose nothing by being 85 tons because that would disqualify a lot of other designs as well. I'm chalking it up to a cost-saving measure. Other than that, this thing is just unfair.

JM6-D4 JagerMech: It isn't necessarily the perfect 'Mech or anything, but neither is there anything I'd change about it. 5/8 and it can fire light over standard PPCs from each arm at a run with no heat buildup? And a backup quartet of MLs? With maxed-out armor? Sure. Absolutely. I'll even give the XL a pass since it uses the tonnage so well.

FNR-5X Fafnir: Granted, if your goal is "two iHGRs" there's not a great deal of leeway anyway, but I wouldn't do anything different with the few remaining tons. Not to mention the fact that, with the SFE, it's actually quite inexpensive.

BLR-4S BattleMaster: Jack-of-all-trades, master of most. 4/6, tough to kill, and at least one gun for any occasion. I think the Jade Falcons only took Pandora because they knew what would happen if they didn't. Although, the DA map shows it back in Lyran hands, and since they upgraded the factory to make the BattleMaster C, they may yet regret that decision.

Turkina X: Experimental technology done right. Run away from it, because there is no range at which it cannot utterly mangle you.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Good choices all, Diplominator.

The one thing that I'll say is that I've sometimes found myself wishing that the BLR-4S had a second big gun on it, since one Gauss Rifle can be a little weak against other assaults that have range on you, but it's otherwise a very, very effective machine.

The Turkina X is especially scary when you get into melee with it.

[Diplominator]

It's only got one big gun, but it does have the big medium laser array, which will do awful things to anything it fights. Plus, at 4/6 it at least has a chance of closing to use it before 3/5s with a lot of guns rip it apart.

So, for most factions, it's a command 'Mech that can handily defend itself against any opponent, with options even against the stuff best suited to destroying it. For the Lyrans, it's a heavy 'Mech.

[bakija]

The average of 3 point groups is OK for sandpaper, but doing a 5+1 on average tends to punch holes faster.

I don't know that 5+1 damage is going to make that much of a difference over 3+3 damage, in terms of punching holes faster, and given that with two racks instead of one (or 4 instead of 2), you are more likely to hit at all (3 damage instead of 3+3 is always better than 0 damage instead of 5+1), I'll go with the two LRM5s over a single LRM10 any time.

  I'll take the "inefficient" 10-racks over the 5's in most cases, this one included.

If it was just the damage spread, I could see that argument--5+1 vs 3+3 can certainly be a marginal advantage worth defending in and of itself. But it isn't just the damage spread. It is also the extra ton you get back for the swap, which is very significant. It means extra armor or heat sinks or medium lasers *in addition* to the same total potential damage. In the Whitworth's case, it gets you 2 extra tons to work with (i.e. turning 2xLRM10 into 4xLRM5). Which gains you more armor, guns, or heat efficiency. All of which make a mech more effective in general.

[Zombyra]

The average of 3 point groups is OK for sandpaper, but doing a 5+1 on average tends to punch holes faster.  I'll take the "inefficient" 10-racks over the 5's in most cases, this one included.  If the tonnage supported 15's, without gimping something else, I'd switch in a heartbeat, but I consider the dual 10's "as good as it gets" on the WTH-1, at least in my experience.

+10 if that were possible  8)

There aren't ANY mechs that couldn't be "improved" for the sake of play-style by some troll.  ::)

Boo to that; and it's discernibly creepy pushing that kind of sour mash repeatedly in an otherwise affirmative poll.

The lrm10-to-5 switch is as common and worn as old boot leather.  With plenty of good players contending both picks, carting that hoary mod around in this case is an open and pretentious buzz-kill  #P

[bakija]

There aren't ANY mechs that couldn't be "improved" for the sake of play-style by some troll.  ::)

Uh, there are plenty of designs mentioned in this thread that are about as good as they can get, based on the way the game works (3025 Awesome, Vindicator, Panther, for example). Mechs with LRM10s, however, probably aren't any of them. As LRM10s are far and away the worst of the LRMs. Which is simply an artifact of the haphazard game design from 1985 or so. As such, it is reasonable to expect that when something with an LRM10 is being discussed, someone will point out that replacing the LRM10 with 2xLRM5 and then an extra ton of something. Especially if it is in the context of whether or not something can be improved.

Boo to that; and it's discernibly creepy pushing that kind of sour mash repeatedly in an otherwise affirmative poll.

I'm constantly baffled by people being so invested in made up game rules that they get bothered by people criticizing it in a completely objective sense. LRM10's? Bad. As an LRM10 weighs a ton more than 2xLRM5s while generating the same heat, having the same damage potential, and having the same ammo supply. This is not a value judgement of people who occasionally use LRM10s (I've certainly used LRM10s when using stock mechs; but every time, it was clear that said mech would have been better served by 2x LRM5s and a ton of something else useful--Griffon can't use an extra heat sink? Valkyrie can't use an extra ML?). This is simply an objective observation that is the result of some dubious game design by some guys who were making a game 25+ years ago that they likely never in a million years envisioned as being something that would still be being discussed 25+ years later.

The lrm10-to-5 switch is as common and worn as old boot leather.

And why is that? 'Cause LRM10's are bad. And replacing them with 2xLRM5s is an obvious and beneficial improvement. If you are going to be discussing "What of these mechs are virtually perfect?", it is difficult to justify a mech that is based on LRM10s as virtually perfect.

  With plenty of good players contending both picks, carting that hoary mod around in this case is an open and pretentious buzz-kill

Whatever works for you, man.

[willydstyle]

Bakija is right on the money.  No need to defend something that is simply objectively worse than other options. That said, since I generally play BV2-balanced scenariors, crappy mechs tend to be cheaper too, so there's a reason to use them anyways :D

[Zombyra]

bakija -

Knowing what the likely response would be, I couldn't have hoped for a better demonstration.

I have to personally thank you for proving my point.  :-*

[ShadowRaven]

gentleman, please. no argueing, let's just get back to the discussion.

Shadowcat A. "I'll see your warhammer and it's damage potential, and raise you mach 6 with flippy arms"

[Diplominator]

Shadowcat A. "I'll see your warhammer and it's damage potential, and raise you mach 6 with flippy arms"

Hey, no fair comparing Clan and IS tech!

psst psst psssssssssst psst

Oh, it's how many tons lighter?

psst

I see.

Carry on.

[bakija]

Knowing what the likely response would be, I couldn't have hoped for a better demonstration.

I have to personally thank you for proving my point.

Glad I could help. I always like to help demonstrate how one can rationally discuss things in an objective sense without getting one's panties in a twist 'cause someone is analyzing made up game rule technology without feeling personally offended 'cause someone is making objective criticism.

Oh, wait. That's probably not what you meant.

[Demon55]

Also in my SW stable, the
MON-67 Mongoose-a great light mech for it's era, good armor, maneuverability and weapons, i'll easily take it unmodified, and usually with preference.
CPLT-C1 Catapult-some people think it needs more ammo, but i'll take it right out of the box every time.  I think it's got just enough ammo to run out about the time the hits start going internal, and plenty of lasers and HS to stick around for the after-party.  I don't have to use this mech as is, I GET to use this mech as is  }:)

The Mongoose, I like also.  Except I usually end up using a Spider because it can jump.

I will second you on the CPLT-C1.

LCT-1E Locust
STC-3C Starslayer. 
PXH-1D/3K/3D Phoenix Hawk
SPR-5F Spector

[Lyran Archer]

ARC-2R Archer
ARC-2S Archer
ARC-5S Archer

I'm pretty happy with all these designs.

With the 2S in the SSW era, loading half the SRMs as Infernos and sending eight Infernos into infantry, vehicles, and most SSW era 'Mechs is pretty much guarenteed to fry people alive.

[ShadowRaven]

has anyone mentioned the Crab? people keep forgeting the Crab. I know I keep forgetting the Crab. i think I have one around here I need to paint....