2 Standard Mediums vs 1 Medium Pulse Laser

[evilauthor]

Okay, here's the scenario: you're desiging a mech/omni config optimized for hit and run, point blank combat. You have X amount of tonnage allocated for close range energy weapons. You can either take a bank of Medium Pulse Lasers which have that nifty TN bonus, or you can take double that number of regular Medium Lasers for much more firepower, but higher heat load and less accuracy.

Does firing two weapons and in essence make two targeting rolls make up for TN bonus that Pulse Lasers get? Is the decrease in firepower worth the accuracy bonus?

Which do you take?

[Jim1701]

Six points that hit is better than 10 points that miss.  That is my philosophy anyway.   Part of it will depend on expected conditions and what type of pilot.   

[monty]

2 standard mediums except on fast jumpers that can close quickly & need to get their to hit numbers down. Otherwise the mediums are a better option.

I don't think pulses are really any more accurate for most designs.
At 0-2 hexes the pulses have a TN bonus.
At 3 hexes the pulse has no advantage.
At 4 hexes the pulse has a TN bonus.
At 5-6 hexes the pulse has no advantage.
At 7-9 hexes the pulse cannot hit.

So of the 9 ranges the standard medium can fire at the pulse has a bonus at 3 of them, no difference at 3 & cannot hit at 3. Unless you're fast enough to guarantee controlling the range that makes the standard med a better choice IMHO.

Damage to heat ratio is better for the mediums & more flexible with the option to fire 1 or 2 & the 2 to hit rolls mitigates the effects of bad dice rolling.

Barring on certain designs like the Wraith I would almost always go for the meds.

[Jim1701]

He did say a point blank design. 

[Kiesel]

another factor to consider is crit packing...
On a heavier design that has already used most of its crits on heat sinks and guns the higher density MPL may be the better choice as a secondary weapon

[garhkal]

IMO if the mech is a jumper, the pulses are a better bet.  If just a fast walk/runner, then the MLs are better.

[bakija]

Okay, here's the scenario: you're desiging a mech/omni config optimized for hit and run, point blank combat.

Clan or IS?

If it is a Clan mech, take the Pulse lasers without even thinking about it. 4 heat, 7 damage, 4/8/12 range with the -2 to hit is insanely good, even relative to the regular ERML at 5 heat, 7 damage, 5/10/15 range.

If it is IS, it is more of a toss up and likely depends on what your heat sink situation is. The shortness of the range of IS MPLs (2/4/6) isn't significantly shorter than the regular MLs (3/6/9), but you are gonna end up losing out on the bonus to hit relative to just the regular lasers much of the time. And having a maximum range of 6 is kind of debilitating.

I'm not super good at probability math, but if we assume a base 7 to hit (you are at point blank range and there are some movement penalties, so 7 seems not completely unreasonable to start from), the regular ML is going to hit 58% of the time. The MPL is going to hit 83% of the time from the -2 to hit bonus. So that seems kind of like a wash to me--of the 2xMLs that you shoot, you'll probably hit with one of them; of the 1xMPL you shoot, you'll probably hit with one of them. If they are IS MPLs, that one hit is going to do 6 damage instead of one hit of 5, so probably you are better off with half as many MPLs, assuming you can reasonably expect to be at R1-2 when you are firing. If you have worse to hit numbers, the MPLs look even better. Starting at a 9 (let's assume point blank, both units have movement penalties, and there are some trees someone is in), the MLs hit 28% of the time where the MPLs hit the 58% of the time, which is more than twice as often, so at that point, you are definitely better off with 1xMPL instead of 2xML.

[Stormforge]

Personally I like to use MPLs as my backup weapons for my designs with LRMs or PPCs and only really use them if they get inside minimum range. If being used with another longer ranged weapon say ER LL or ER PPC I will go with MLs or ER MLs if available. On jumping designs it all depends on heat, weight, and crits available. Maybe even take a mix of both say 1 or 2 MPLs and 2 MLs.

[Hellraiser]

There is no guarenteed answer here, it is totally dependant on the platform that your mounting them on.

Even the info given isn't enough,  a Wolverine & a Spider both fit the description but are very different beasts.
Also what era ?  Are ERML's an option as well ?   Not to mention Tech since Clan is different than IS.


Last but not least is BV, 2 ML's is nearly double the BV of 1 MPL in IS tech, so, its not all about the best combat stats, cost & balance is important too.

[Fallen_Raven]

I'd prefer the two standard lasers. Barring all other considerations that tend to balance out, two lasers leaves me with a spare if I take a crit.

[Demos]

Like Hellraiser said.

You could even consider the use of TC's, further muddling the waters.
I prefer the MPL (IS) more than a back-up weapon, but if we speak of a very light mech (20t), then i'd prefer one or two MPL over two to four ML's.

[StCptMara]

It depends very much on the Chassis.
I would prefer 2 medium on a locust chassis to a Medium pulse.
However, on something like a Nightsky or Wraith, the Medium Pulse is better.
Heavier, faster designs can get away with an MPL, while fast, lighter designs
need to maximize punch.

[Sharpnel]

I'll take the two mediums every time. Better range and two chances to hit a target vice one. Sure combined the heat build up is higher, but individually it's only one less point of damage.

[Urban Kufahl]

pilot skills : pulse for green (at least they can move and fire  >:D) and std for others.
fast or jumper : pulse
slow : std
T-Comp : std

[Kovax]

My take on the subject would be that it depends more on your expected targets than on your own 'Mech.

If you're attacking big, slow opponents, then I'd opt for the dual mediums every time (2 shots for 5 damage each are almost always better than one for 6).  Against recon or other fast targets, the pulses may give you shots at "reasonable" odds, rather than the 10+ that it's probably going to take to hit even at point-blank (4 base, 2-3 for your move, 3-4 for the opponent's move, and 0-2 points for terrain whenever possible = 9-13).  At anything other than 1, 2, or 4 hexes, there's no advantage to the Pulses anyway.

[Stormcrow]

I'll go with the two MPLs as long as the 'Mech I'm driving can take a beating when it gets in close and/or has the speed to get the heck out of Dodge.

[SandMan]

This is a simple math problem which depends on your expected TNs. 

Code: [Select]

Assuming min TN6 (3 gun, run, target  +1)
Range 2 ML avg dmg 1 MPL avg dmg
1 6.219135802 5.5
2 6.219135802 5.5
3 6.219135802 4.333333333
4 2.951388889 4.333333333
5 2.951388889 2.5
6 2.951388889 2.5
7 0.972222222 0
8 0.972222222 0
9 0.972222222 0

So for low TNs at short range, go with the MLs

Code: [Select]

Assuming min TN8 (4 gun, run, target  +2)
Range 2 ML avg dmg 1 MPL avg dmg
1 2.951388889 4.333333333
2 2.951388889 4.333333333
3 2.951388889 2.5
4 0.972222222 2.5
5 0.972222222 1
6 0.972222222 1
7 0.277777778 0
8 0.277777778 0
9 0.277777778 0
But for high TNs at short range (say, you've got a jumper designed for backstabbing), go with the MPL. 

[Sami Jumppanen]

It depends very much on the Chassis.
I would prefer 2 medium on a locust chassis to a Medium pulse.
However, on something like a Nightsky or Wraith, the Medium Pulse is better.
Heavier, faster designs can get away with an MPL, while fast, lighter designs
need to maximize punch.

Nightsky, Wraith, Spider and Venom. Simply because you don't have enough heatsinks to deal with that many MLs and these mechs are supposed to use jumpjets constantly. Komodo is good with MLs as it is built around them.

[Neufeld]

This:

IMO if the mech is a jumper, the pulses are a better bet.  If just a fast walk/runner, then the MLs are better.

[monbvol]

I'm a bit of a nutbar in that I appreciate the greater ability to manipulate my TNs that the 3/6/9 profile of the standards offer.  Plus by having two of them even though they are less accurate the odds of both missing are actualy more favorable than the odds for the Medium Pulse Laser.  Plus you can cheat a bit with the standards if heat is a bit of an issue and use the dial down damage and heat rules in TacOps.

[cavingjan]

I would take 3 ML + 1 DHS over 2 MPL. (Assuming crits are not an issue)

[Lagbreaker]

Using BV and default pilots makes the MPL superior.

The MPL does more damage on average and saves BV.

[Fireangel]

In practically every case I'll take 2xML over 1xMPL.

[Sami Jumppanen]

In practically every case I'll take 2xML over 1xMPL.

How about double that? Say if you had a chance to modify the Gunslinger?

[adamhowe]

I would take the Medium Pulse Lasers.

[rlbell]

Six points that hit is better than 10 points that miss.  That is my philosophy anyway.   Part of it will depend on expected conditions and what type of pilot.

This needs some analysis:

Given TN is before accounting for the pulse bonus, only keeping two significant digits
The probability (1 - both missing) includes both hitting, so the (both hitting) term adds the extra damage of the second ML
As there are two lasers, and we are calculating expectation values, (1- both miss + both hit) is not a probability and can be as high as 2.

TN of 12:  MPL damage expectation (DEp) = 1 (1/6 chance of hitting  x 6 damage)  2ML damage expectation (DEr) = 0.25 ((1- odds of both missing) x 5 damage)
TN of 11: DEp = 1.67 (10/36 chance of hitting x 6), DEr =  0.74 (5 x (1- odds of both missing + odds of both hitting)
TN of 10: DEp = 2.5 (15/36 chance of hitting x 6), DEr = 1.67 (5 x (1 - 25/36 + 1/36)
TN of 9: DEp = 3.5 (21/36 x 6), DEr =  2.77 (5 x (1- (26/36)^2 + (10/36)^2))
TN of 8: DEp = 4.33 (26/36 x 6), DEr =  4.17 (5 x (1 - (21/36)^2 +(15/36)^2))
TN of 7: DEp = 5 (5/6 x 6), DEr = 5.83 (5 x (1- (15/36)^2 + (21/36)^2)
TN of 6: DEp = 5.5 (11/12 x 6), DEr = 7.22 (5 x (1-(10/36)^2 + (26/36)^2))


If you know that you are taking an elite mechwarrior against slow targets (gunnery 2 versus 4/6 mechs), twin ML's are a shoe-in, with the longer range being icing on the cake.  Otherwise, the single MPL is better for one jumping mech duelling another jumper.

[Fireangel]

How about double that? Say if you had a chance to modify the Gunslinger?

Provided I have the crits, yes. Heat is not really an issue, since I always have the option of firing one or more less MLs to help reduce heat (in other words, I have more control over my heat output).

Code: [Select]

1x MPL =  4 heat
1x ML =  3 heat
2x ML  =  6 heat

2x MPL =  8 heat
2x ML  =  6 heat
3x ML  =  9 heat
4x ML  = 12 heat

Besides, I usually try to keep the range open in combat; if I find myself at ranges where the MPL has an advantage, then I've done something wrong.

And yes, that applies even with close-in knife-fighters.

[LastChanceCav]

I think a week ago I might have said 2 standard MLs, but recently I've been using a BH-KU Prime and the MPLs seem be do a lot more of the damage than the MLs. Most of the time I usually run into at least +4 to TNs so the extra range bracket (7-9 hexes) on the standard MLs really don't result in much damage since the chances of hitting are so small.

Cheers,
LCC

[Cannonshop]

Okay, here's the scenario: you're desiging a mech/omni config optimized for hit and run, point blank combat. You have X amount of tonnage allocated for close range energy weapons. You can either take a bank of Medium Pulse Lasers which have that nifty TN bonus, or you can take double that number of regular Medium Lasers for much more firepower, but higher heat load and less accuracy.

Does firing two weapons and in essence make two targeting rolls make up for TN bonus that Pulse Lasers get? Is the decrease in firepower worth the accuracy bonus?

Which do you take?

Honestly? I'd take a STANDARD Medium over a MPL (that's one-for-one), and TWO standard Mediums vs 1 MPL is a no-brainer.  First off, you don't have to fire both all the time, and firing one you only lose a point of damage-and generate less heat than an MPL does.  If you're in a good alpha position (i.e. no heat burden this turn, he's close...) you can still fire both of them.

Then, there's the simple matter that a single lucky hit (minus limb or torso destruction) won't put two lasers out-but WILL put a single weapon out (Like, say, your MPL).

Finally, there's the range issue.

mpl only works better than a standard medium at that medium's "SHORT" range band.  i.e. the first three hexes, and in a very narrow band of the medium range (the lower end) of the Standard Medium's range.  Past that, it's either "No difference" or "Maggie's Draws" for the MPL, since it just ain't got the distance.

This all, of course, assumes IS technology.

[MOrab46019]

I would also add ERML more reach plus you still have two. If your rolls are bad nice to have another shot.