'New School' - Mech design in 3145

[Sartris]

After entering a large number of the units from RS:3145u into SSW, I've noticed a few trends regarding design philosophy in the early to mid 32nd century. I haven't had time to gather any sort of statistics so this is far from scientific. As with any trend, there will be plenty of contrary examples (or I may have simply misinterpreted what I was seeing). Feel free to add to or refute any of the following. NTNU is omitted, as it stands as a deliberate attempt to use new tech on old chassis.

1. Endosteel - It's pretty much ubiquitous now. There was a little endo-composite too, but almost every design I saw uses it.

2. Newer Missile systems - They're everywhere. I thought I saw more MML-5 and ATM-6 more than other sizes, but I feel like overall they are certainly supplanting SRMs (Streaks excluded). The Kuritans seem to be swimming against the stream on this one (especially with their high volume of Clan LRMs and MRM + Apollo)... also... is anyone else terrified by the rapid proliferation of Streak LRMs?

3. XL engines - Lots and lots of XL engines. Holy crap, there are a lot of XL and XXL engines.

4. IJJs - The IJJ craze in TRO 3085 appears to be mostly over

5. PPCs - The PPC craze is not over. Universe needs more Blue Shield.

6. Heavy Lasers - IS Clans love them some heavy lasers.

7. Shutting Down... - More TSEMP than I expected.

7. Attack of the sequels - Anubis, Atlas III, Black Hawk (standard), Black Knight, Catapult II, Centurion Omni, Dragon II, DA Firestarter,  Hollander III, Kodiak II, Koshi (Standard), Loki II, Lu Wei Bing, Mad Cat IV, Phoenix Hawk L, Stalker II, Stalking Spider II, Templar III, Thor II, Viking IIC, Vulture III, IV, Zeus X

[Diablo48]

Looking at these trends from a design standpoint, a lot of this makes a lot of sense.

Endo and XLEs are both fantastic technologies which are well understood at this point so it makes sense that a lot of designers are going for them and making the technologies more available.

MMLs also make sense because they can replace SRMs in a lot of cases, although the ATM is a bit odd because it does not really overlap with any of the older launchers.  I would also have to disagree on the subject of the MRMs because I feel like the widespread introduction of Apollo really makes them a new system in a lot of ways because it eliminates some of their traditional limitations, and the advantages of Clan launchers are obvious enough that that should not need any explanation.  I am also not especially surprised by the proliferation of Streak LRMs, although that is honestly not a technology that I am terribly impressed with.  Sure conserving ammo is nice, but they weigh so much more than standards that you do not really gain anything from the change in combat and the extra cost of the ammo means they are not really any easier on the logistics end either.

The iJJs also make sense because while you can make some really scary things with them, they are very much a specialized system so it is not surprising that they have settled into their niche more as time goes on.

I am honestly not sure what you are talking about with a "PPC craze".  It is very well known both in and out of universe that the entire PPC family is a solid group of weapons that make a good core for just about any 'Mech so I would expect to see lots of them until Blue Shield and reflective armor get popular enough to make them a poor choice.

The Heavy Lasers are also not that surprising given their effectiveness when used properly and the fact that at least one of the (out of character) people in charge thinks they are what the Clans should have been from the start.  I very strongly disagree with this sentiment given the way warfare tends to evolve in the real world and the fact that pilots can better show off their skill at long range, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

The TSEMP honestly strikes me as new toy syndrome and I expect that to fade into the background soon, but it does fit the pattern for many other new technologies so far.

For the sequels, some of that was mandated by the prior Dark Age stuff, but I honestly think that is more a function of the devs running out of names as anything else because I have had to resort to some fairly insane names to keep my custom designs from overlapping with canon designs.  It is also probably partially influenced by the fact that weapon configurations start to look alike no matter what you do after however many canon designs have been published already, but this numbering was really kind of inevitable.

[Jellico]

I am also not especially surprised by the proliferation of Streak LRMs, although that is honestly not a technology that I am terribly impressed with.  Sure conserving ammo is nice, but they weigh so much more than standards that you do not really gain anything from the change in combat and the extra cost of the ammo means they are not really any easier on the logistics end either.

On 'Mechs the extra damage and less heat (damage wise they are comparable to a LRM 20 + 10) make them slightly superior to LRMs. They do lack indirect fire and ammo options.
On the ground proliferation of ECM limits the effectiveness of Artemis IV and V.
In the air Artemis V is the superior option.

[Diablo48]

On 'Mechs the extra damage and less heat (damage wise they are comparable to a LRM 20 + 10) make them slightly superior to LRMs. They do lack indirect fire and ammo options.
On the ground proliferation of ECM limits the effectiveness of Artemis IV and V.
In the air Artemis V is the superior option.

Except the system weighs twice what a regular launcher does, although the reduction in ammo and DHS brings it back into line with the conventional racks all told.  Running the numbers under the assumption that you have to pay for DHS (because the standards obviously win easily on the free engine DHS), two LRM 15's work out to 16 tons (7 tons for the launchers, 5 for the DHS, 4 for the ammo) while the SLRM 20 is 15 tons (10 for the launcher, 3 for the DHS, 2 for the ammo).  That is very close overall in both mass and damage, but the standard racks have a number of other little advantages like indirect fire and special munitions which I feel more than make up for the tiny loss in efficiency.

Streak LRMs are really just not as strong as Streak SRMs which generally eclipse the standards unless you need the ability to use special munitions which is why I am not impressed with the new technology.  I feel like the new system could really have used another little edge somewhere because as is they are not just enough better to justify loosing indirect fire and special munitions.

[nckestrel]

If you are comparable to standard clan LRMs, you're doing pretty good for yourself. 

[Diablo48]

If you are comparable to standard clan LRMs, you're doing pretty good for yourself.

They are both Clan tech so that is to be expected.  The LRMs are nothing special there and stack up fairly evenly against all the other long range weapons.

[nckestrel]

They are both Clan tech so that is to be expected.  The LRMs are nothing special there and stack up fairly evenly against all the other long range weapons.

We're not comparing them to Ultra AC/2s :).
If Streak LRMs are fairly comparable to other good clantech weapons, then it seems it hit the mark it was aiming for?

[Diablo48]

We're not comparing them to Ultra AC/2s :).
If Streak LRMs are fairly comparable to other good clantech weapons, then it seems it hit the mark it was aiming for?

Except it looses some features while getting nothing back.  Sure it is way better than IS weapons, but when you stack it up against Clan weapons it is almost as good but not quite which is not a good place to be.  If it had a few more hexes of range like the SRM racks or weighed a little less it would have a reason to exist because then it would trade special munitions and indirect fire for an edge in direct combat, but as is it is basically just a standard LRM rack without those features which is why I do not like it.

[DarkISI]

For the sequels, some of that was mandated by the prior Dark Age stuff, but I honestly think that is more a function of the devs running out of names as anything else because I have had to resort to some fairly insane names to keep my custom designs from overlapping with canon designs.  It is also probably partially influenced by the fact that weapon configurations start to look alike no matter what you do after however many canon designs have been published already, but this numbering was really kind of inevitable.

Running out of names is really not a big problem. We have unit designers, writers and artists from all over the world, giving us a really big pool of names to draw from, without any trouble. :)

[Jellico]

Except the system weighs twice what a regular launcher does, although the reduction in ammo and DHS brings it back into line with the conventional racks all told.  Running the numbers under the assumption that you have to pay for DHS (because the standards obviously win easily on the free engine DHS), two LRM 15's work out to 16 tons (7 tons for the launchers, 5 for the DHS, 4 for the ammo) while the SLRM 20 is 15 tons (10 for the launcher, 3 for the DHS, 2 for the ammo).  That is very close overall in both mass and damage, but the standard racks have a number of other little advantages like indirect fire and special munitions which I feel more than make up for the tiny loss in efficiency.

Streak LRMs are really just not as strong as Streak SRMs which generally eclipse the standards unless you need the ability to use special munitions which is why I am not impressed with the new technology.  I feel like the new system could really have used another little edge somewhere because as is they are not just enough better to justify loosing indirect fire and special munitions.

So what are you looking for exactly? SLRMs do more damage per ton. Especially as the ammo increases as the SLRM will always need less. The LRM gets optional ammo and indirect fire. That sounds balanced to me.
        Damage    12 Ammo   HS   Weight   Total
2xLRM15   18   3   5    7   15
SLRM20    20   2   3   10   15
New tech is rarely going to eclipse old tech. That is the nature of the game. Balance.

[jymset]

4. IJJs - The IJJ craze in TRO 3085 appears to be mostly over

7. Attack of the sequels - Anubis, Atlas III, Black Hawk (standard), Black Knight, Catapult II, Centurion Omni, Dragon II, DA Firestarter,  Hollander III, Kodiak II, Koshi (Standard), Loki II, Lu Wei Bing, Mad Cat IV, Phoenix Hawk L, Stalker II, Stalking Spider II, Templar III, Thor II, Viking IIC, Vulture III, IV, Zeus X

These show the difference in design philosophy between 3085 and 3145. 3085 really wanted to explore the new movement profiles made possible by TW, which of course entailed examining a large variety of iJJ options. 3145 needed to fold in all the DA stuff; a lot of the list was documented. The rest (some of which arguably could have been NTNU material) were a deliberate choice to canonize aesthetics in the way of "C"BT illustrations. Only 3 of the above fall in neither category.

As for streaks, operatively for me the main boon of the system - in all incarnations be it SSRM, SLRM or iATM - is that I play so very differently with it. Essentially I'll always announce my weapons fire by saying "...and I'll be firing the Streaks, too." - there is almost no situation in which the heat isn't worth the damage. And I don't care how difficult the to-hit number is. That is what makes Streaks awesome. It matters not how hard it is to hit.

[MistWolf]

1. Endosteel - It's pretty much ubiquitous now

I would like to point out all mechs use endosteel. The advanced form of endosteel is actually called Endosteel II

[Holybat]

I would like to point out all mechs use endosteel. The advanced form of endosteel is actually called Endosteel II

Yes because that's why they went through the effort of labeling standard chassis "standard" in the Tech Manual.

[Diablo48]

So what are you looking for exactly? SLRMs do more damage per ton. Especially as the ammo increases as the SLRM will always need less. The LRM gets optional ammo and indirect fire. That sounds balanced to me.
        Damage    12 Ammo   HS   Weight   Total
2xLRM15   18   3   5    7   15
SLRM20    20   2   3   10   15
New tech is rarely going to eclipse old tech. That is the nature of the game. Balance.

I just do not see the boost being significant enough to justify the loss of the extra features of the standards in any case.  Besides, those extra features give the standard racks enough of an advantage in some situations to allow them to remain viable even if the streaks have a major advantage in direct combat.  After all, a Streak LRM Carrier would be a lot less useful than the standard due to the loss of indirect fire to protect its thin skin even with the weight of the IS launchers.

[Molossian Dog IIC]

For me personally indirect fire is what LRMs are all about. That is why I think a direct comparison of LRMs and SLRMs is somewhat missing the point.

[Diablo48]

For me personally indirect fire is what LRMs are all about. That is why I think a direct comparison of LRMs and SLRMs is somewhat missing the point.

Well, on the Clan side of things they do work fairly well as main weapons, but you inevitably run into comparisons to the mighty ERPPC so they rely on their other abilities to keep them viable.  For the sake of completeness, I will go ahead and run the numbers there against the SLRM 15.  ERPPC: 6 ton weapon, 7.5 tons DHS, 13.5 tons total.  SLRM 15: 7 ton weapon, 2 tons ammo, 2.5 tons DHS, 11.5 tons total.  So you save two tons, but loose the headcapping potential, 2 hexes of range, infinite ammo, and gain 2 explosive ammo crits.  Given the value of maximum range with Clan gunners and the general power of big clusters, I cannot see taking the SLRM here either.

I feel like they could have been viable if they were given 8/16/24 range, but as is they have too many drawbacks and not enough advantages to ever be worth taking instead of other Clan weapons.

[cold1]

The proliferation of clan tech makes sense now...
ERPPCs and LRMs being the first clan tech to really get some traction is smart since they are the systems that totally blow away their IS counterparts.  I'd love to see an Archer 8M upgrade with clan weapons now.

The increase in heavy lasers makes sense, guess they weren't just new toy syndrome.  I like that the out of universe designers now know how to mount them effectively now. 

It's a shame iATMs are homeworld only.  They bring a whole level of bad mother to game play.  I would like to see what the design folks could do with them.

[Maelwys]

I'm sort of curious about the proliferation of the Heavy Gauss Rifle. It seems like every other design has the iHGR, though that might just be a perception bias.

[Rorke]

3145 stuff that I've seen so far, does feel less "zeitgeisty".  I mean the inane numbers of mechs with
IJJ doesn't seem to be repeated here.

It me, or has there been a bit of a trend towards 65 tonners though?

[Sartris]

3145 stuff that I've seen so far, does feel less "zeitgeisty".  I mean the inane numbers of mechs with
IJJ doesn't seem to be repeated here.

It me, or has there been a bit of a trend towards 65 tonners though?

I had a similar thought about 75 tonners so I went back and counted unique chassis by weight. The results weren't what I expected.

TRO 3145 series -Unique Chassis by weight (variants / omni configs not counted):

15 - 2
20 - 1
25 - 3
30 - 5 
35 - 11

40 - 4
45 - 3
50 - 8
55 - 6

60 - 4
65 - 6
70 - 4
75 - 10

80 - 5
85 - 3
90 - 2
95 - 2
100 - 6

125 - 1
135 - 1

[Maelwys]

The 35 tonners I expected. I recall flipping through them and wondering when they were going to end. The 75 tonners is soft of a surprise.

I wonder if that's a conscious decision, perhaps to give everyone a 75 tonner since they seem to be more efficient than some of the heavy weight classes.

[jymset]

I wonder if that's a conscious decision, perhaps to give everyone a 75 tonner since they seem to be more efficient than some of the heavy weight classes.

Nope, that is very much indicated by DA. Discounting the QuadVees (1 each of the highest possible tonnage of Light, Medium, Heavy), and thus subtracing 1 from each total, 8/10 of the 35-tonners and 7/9 of the 75-tonners were from MW DA/AoD. Since one each also came from Brent Evans concept art, and we did our best to respect the artist's visions, that just leaves 1 of each weight as a wholly new design. And that ain't exactly much. 8)

[Deadborder]

Nope, that is very much indicated by DA. Discounting the QuadVees (1 each of the highest possible tonnage of Light, Medium, Heavy), and thus subtracing 1 from each total, 8/10 of the 35-tonners and 7/9 of the 75-tonners were from MW DA/AoD. Since one each also came from Brent Evans concept art, and we did our best to respect the artist's visions, that just leaves 1 of each weight as a wholly new design. And that ain't exactly much. 8)

I'm curious as to which ones were the concept art. The Hollander III, IIRC is one, but the other?

[jymset]

Uraeus O0

[Deadborder]

Uraeus O0

There you go. It's pretty much unrecongiseable there unless you know what to look for!

OTOH, its amazing how many of the TRO3145 BAs are based on unused Evans concepts

[Fat Guy]

I'm curious as to which ones were the concept art. The Hollander III, IIRC is one, but the other?

 Kishi, Spectre, Ogre, Quirinus, and the Ant Lion as well.

[False Son]

The proliferation of clan tech makes sense now...

Let's not forget it swings both ways, just not as far.  The Wulfen having Stealth Armor is one of those things that in hindsight seems like a no brainer.  It may have just been a barrier the mindset of the clans who first invaded.  They lagged behind in BA stealth armor, as well.  Then again, if I made Elemental BA i'd be tempted to overlook stealth, as well.

What interests me is seeing things like standard ACs on mixed tech, clan produced designs (you know who i'm talking about).  That brings up the question of swapping PACs for LACs and gaining specialized ammo.  Worth a shot.

3145 stuff that I've seen so far, does feel less "zeitgeisty".  I mean the inane numbers of mechs with
IJJ doesn't seem to be repeated here.

Maybe it depends on your qualifications for zeitgeisty.  I see the era as prolific, combined arms and MUNCH.  To that end, every faction got all kinds of tech and a mixture of underwhelming and super silly.  Even the clans got decent vehicles, and not just the Horses.  To me, that is zeitgeisty.  It's not another rehash of "It's the 3050s!  Everyone, spam 2 weapon types!".  When I look at it, CapCon uses more TSEMP than anyone, but that's just one tech.  It's not like CapCon is "The TSEMP faction" or FedSuns are "The CERLL faction".  They just use more than others.

[CloaknDagger]

Let's not forget it swings both ways, just not as far.  The Wulfen having Stealth Armor is one of those things that in hindsight seems like a no brainer.  It may have just been a barrier the mindset of the clans who first invaded.  They lagged behind in BA stealth armor, as well.  Then again, if I made Elemental BA i'd be tempted to overlook stealth, as well.

Actually, stealth armor is a no-brainer for the Clans.

In the sense that they have to have no brain to use it.

The Society apparently had plans for Chameleon and Null Sig just lying around, and that's not even touching the Void Sig that was old hat by 3145. Why Stealth Armor even exists at all is the better question.

[Col Toda]

On the increase of Streak LRM just means an increase to Angel ECM something I upgraded to by 3085 anyways .

[cold1]

Actually, stealth armor is a no-brainer for the Clans.

In the sense that they have to have no brain to use it.

The Society apparently had plans for Chameleon and Null Sig just lying around, and that's not even touching the Void Sig that was old hat by 3145. Why Stealth Armor even exists at all is the better question.

Well since the warriors caste used to live by the rules of honorable dueling, yes it makes sense the clans would not use it.  Now that the Inner Sphere clans have loosened up a bit, it makes sense for them to start using it. 

The IS clans did not have a lot of opportunity to capture Society tech and research.  The Sharks might have some of it, but for the most part the Inner Sphere clans had bigger concerns during the Society rebellion.

[verybad]

Well since the warriors caste used to live by the rules of honorable dueling, yes it makes sense the clans would not use it.  Now that the Inner Sphere clans have loosened up a bit, it makes sense for them to start using it. 

Not really, if you can't use defensive technology, then AMS and running fast in order to be hard to hit or even armor could be considered dishonorable. I can't see how stealth technology would be considered dishonorable.

[Diablo48]

Not really, if you can't use defensive technology, then AMS and running fast in order to be hard to hit or even armor could be considered dishonorable. I can't see how stealth technology would be considered dishonorable.

It is just another case of arbitrary out-of-universe limits placed on the Clans that does not actually make any sense from a Clan point of view.

[MadCapellan]

Not really, if you can't use defensive technology, then AMS and running fast in order to be hard to hit or even armor could be considered dishonorable. I can't see how stealth technology would be considered dishonorable.

I'm pretty sure the official reasoning is that stealth armor implies an intent to hide, and thus ambush, and thus act dishonorably. If it only granted to-hit modifiers, it'd be just fine. It's that it allows you to sneak up on people that marks the user as a sneak, thus impugning their personal honor.

[Diablo48]

I'm pretty sure the official reasoning is that stealth armor implies an intent to hide, and thus ambush, and thus act dishonorably. If it only granted to-hit modifiers, it'd be just fine. It's that it allows you to sneak up on people that marks the user as a sneak, thus impugning their personal honor.

Not under TW rules, and there is no reason the Clans have to use that capability anyways.  It works just fine as a piece of defensive equipment in direct combat and should not be assumed to be an intent to hide.

[MadCapellan]

It works just fine as a piece of defensive equipment in direct combat and should not be assumed to be an intent to hide.

For whatever reason, however, that's how the Clans saw it culturally.  I don't believe in-universe anyone really thinks about what aspects of a piece of equipment are tournament legal. It's a distinction which only exists in our personal table-top games.

[Diablo48]

For whatever reason, however, that's how the Clans saw it culturally.

I refer you back to my earlier post on the subject.  These restrictions make no sense within the context of the Clan mindset as originally described, they are decided in order to enforce a Clan/IS split in places it should not reasonably exist and then ascribed to Clan culture after the fact in the hopes that no one notices.

There are still some technologies like C3 which make sense to leave out (with a handful of exceptions), but there are many more that the Clans should have jumped on a long time ago.

I don't believe in-universe anyone really thinks about what aspects of a piece of equipment are tournament legal. It's a distinction which only exists in our personal table-top games.

Agreed, but it is worth pointing out.

[MadCapellan]

I refer you back to my earlier post on the subject.  These restrictions make no sense within the context of the Clan mindset as originally described, they are decided in order to enforce a Clan/IS split in places it should not reasonably exist and then ascribed to Clan culture after the fact in the hopes that no one notices.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The Clan culture is one which has experienced hundreds of years of ritualized warfare. Battles had ceased to be military endeavors, and had become formalized duels where you announced the time and place of the trial, declared your assets, and met to decide the results in combat.  Just as weapons such as artillery faded into obscurity as they were seen as a poor way to earn honor, so to would a Clan warrior who used equipment that gave the impression he intended to sneak around instead of fight fairly find his honor impugned by using such equipment. I suspect that there was never a strict ban on stealth equipment amongst the Clans, simply that there were few examples of Null Signature with the Clans at the time of their initial formation, and that over the years machines operating it were seen as shady and less desirable, prompting no new ones to be built. Eventually, they disappeared all together, to the point that everyone just assumed that they shouldn't be used, sort of like physical attacks.

[Diablo48]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The Clan culture is one which has experienced hundreds of years of ritualized warfare. Battles had ceased to be military endeavors, and had become formalized duels where you announced the time and place of the trial, declared your assets, and met to decide the results in combat.  Just as weapons such as artillery faded into obscurity as they were seen as a poor way to earn honor, so to would a Clan warrior who used equipment that gave the impression he intended to sneak around instead of fight fairly find his honor impugned by using such equipment. I suspect that there was never a strict ban on stealth equipment amongst the Clans, simply that there were few examples of Null Signature with the Clans at the time of their initial formation, and that over the years machines operating it were seen as shady and less desirable, prompting no new ones to be built. Eventually, they disappeared all together, to the point that everyone just assumed that they shouldn't be used, sort of like physical attacks.

And yet every Clan maintains active and capable artillery units including the Falcons who are explicitly stated to use the Huitzilopochtli.  The Wolves even built a dedicated artillery omni long after the dueling traditions had set in.  Lots of people seem to want to disregard these details, but the Clans have always been far more pragmatic than they are usually given credit for.

[MadCapellan]

And yet every Clan maintains active and capable artillery units including the Falcons who are explicitly stated to use the Huitzilopochtli.  The Wolves even built a dedicated artillery omni long after the dueling traditions had set in.  Lots of people seem to want to disregard these details, but the Clans have always been far more pragmatic than they are usually given credit for.

A 'Mech can still be hidden without stealth armor.  A combat unit cannot deliver indirect fire from kilometers away without artillery. I'd say that's a key difference. Swatting bandit caste positions with artillery because it's beneath the warriors to actually go in and shoot them where they stand is pretty well in keeping with the Clan mindset. Continuing to manufacture specialized equipment so that you can sneak up on bandits and kill them with a surprised look on their face sounds like a waste of resources from a Clan perspective.

[False Son]

And yet every Clan maintains active and capable artillery units including the Falcons who are explicitly stated to use the Huitzilopochtli.  The Wolves even built a dedicated artillery omni long after the dueling traditions had set in.  Lots of people seem to want to disregard these details, but the Clans have always been far more pragmatic than they are usually given credit for.

And true to clan nature, the homeworld clans readily agreed the use of artillery in trials was bad.  Meanwhile, the practical clan, Wolf was stepping up their game.  I'd question this perception, as well.  Plenty of mechs were built with TAG.  What exactly were they supposed to be used  for if artillery was offlimits?  It might not be right for Trials, as shown by the reaction to Ulric K's death.  But, in star vs star or larger, it may be legit.  It would just be weird that even units like protomechs are getting TAG if A4 is out of the question.

[MadCapellan]

It would just be weird that even units like protomechs are getting TAG if A4 is out of the question.

Yet, ProtoMechs are really a development of the way the Clans were already starting to adapt to exposure to the Inner Sphere. Since Zellbriggen was not required against Inner Sphere opponents, and the Clan that developed them were in a life-or-death struggle against the Inner Sphere, it'd be unsurprising that TAG would appear on ProtoMechs.

[Diablo48]

A 'Mech can still be hidden without stealth armor.  A combat unit cannot deliver indirect fire from kilometers away without artillery. I'd say that's a key difference. Swatting bandit caste positions with artillery because it's beneath the warriors to actually go in and shoot them where they stand is pretty well in keeping with the Clan mindset. Continuing to manufacture specialized equipment so that you can sneak up on bandits and kill them with a surprised look on their face sounds like a waste of resources from a Clan perspective.

So what you are saying is that artillery is more restrictive than stealth technology in the eyes of the Clans, so given the fact that we know the Clans do use artillery it is only logical that they would also use the less restrictive stealth technologies.  I believe you have made my case for me.

Yet, ProtoMechs are really a development of the way the Clans were already starting to adapt to exposure to the Inner Sphere. Since Zellbriggen was not required against Inner Sphere opponents, and the Clan that developed them were in a life-or-death struggle against the Inner Sphere, it'd be unsurprising that TAG would appear on ProtoMechs.

What about all the pre-3050 designs with TAG?  It was very clearly in use before the invasion on front line omnis, so it is hardly new.

[MadCapellan]

So what you are saying is that artillery is more restrictive than stealth technology in the eyes of the Clans,

I'm certain I said quite the opposite. What artillery does cannot be duplicated by something else.  What stealth armor does is enhance the performance of something un-Clanlike that 'Mechs can already do.

[Weirdo]

What about all the pre-3050 designs with TAG?  It was very clearly in use before the invasion on front line omnis, so it is hardly new.

Even front-line forces have to be prepared for all eventualities. They may prefer the dueling system, but there will always be the occasional need to smash bandit bunkers, solahma tanks, proper Clan forces that prove themselves dezgra...you know things that are not worth dueling and need to be smashed flat ASAP lest they challenge the proper order of things.

[Col Toda]

I agree with your first point for internal structure almost every design can afford the 7 Crit spaces for Endo - Compsite  for the Assault class mech and endosteel proper for everything else. I am one of those Kuritians going against the stream on the second point I still think the throw weight in long range engagement for standard LRM launchers and the combat vehicle killing power of the MRM + Apollo combo is a viable choice . On your point of engine type 85 - 100 ton assaults still are better off with a standard or light engine though 80 ton ones tend to have and XL engine  as does everything else as a consequence CASE II should be more popular . Still using 3085 tech with a more practiced tactical doctrine than 3145 tech should ; short term ; still kick the newer stuffs ass . It all revolves around a player's learning curve in adapting the new stuff.

[SCC]

What interests me is seeing things like standard ACs on mixed tech, clan produced designs (you know who i'm talking about).  That brings up the question of swapping PACs for LACs and gaining specialized ammo.  Worth a shot.

You do realize that PACs can already use specialty ammo, don't you? They're basically Clan LACs. In fact that PAC-8 is probably better then the LAC-5 for Armor Piercing, note that the sizes match the pattern for the class 5, 10 and 20 ACs and the ranges for the PAC just about match the ranges for those same standard AC's? I'm pretty sure that a PAC when using Armor Piercing ammo counts as an AC 2.5 times it size, so a PAC-8 calculates mods for AP ammo as if it were an AC/20

[Gryphon]

Where do you draw a 2.5 size modifier for PACs from SCC? That seems excessive, even for Clantech?

[Stinger]

I know this thread is a bit outdated, but it fit more than a new thread.

Is it safe to say that the Majority of heavy lasers have been upgraded to improved heavy lasers?

[glitterboy2098]

I know this thread is a bit outdated, but it fit more than a new thread.

Is it safe to say that the Majority of heavy lasers have been upgraded to improved heavy lasers?

in the homeworlds yes. i don't think iHL's made it to the IS, being society developed tech

[GreekFire]

in the homeworlds yes. i don't think iHL's made it to the IS, being society developed tech

Uhh...but...no offense, but have you looked at the 3145 'mechs yet?

[Jellico]

I know this thread is a bit outdated, but it fit more than a new thread.

Is it safe to say that the Majority of heavy lasers have been upgraded to improved heavy lasers?

Improved heavy lasers are a lot more explody than regular heavy lasers so a place remains for both.
I know as a designer I don't even like groups of APGRs on 'Mechs for their tendency to cascade in pilot killing feedback. At least with the big gauss rifles the pilot only gets zapped once.

[glitterboy2098]

Uhh...but...no offense, but have you looked at the 3145 'mechs yet?

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's so far. but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR (when all contact with the IS was lost), i doubt they are all that common in the IS. i'd have said completely non-existent save for your response.. i'm willing to be proven wrong here, but i doubt improved heavies will be very widespread. (i do know that plenty of regular heavy lasers are still in use)

[Picard Day]

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's so far. but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR (when all contact with the IS was lost), i doubt they are all that common in the IS. i'd have said completely non-existent save for your response.. i'm willing to be proven wrong here, but i doubt improved heavies will be very widespread. (i do know that plenty of regular heavy lasers are still in use)

Improved Heavy Lasers have been spotted in IS clan designs even in the early republic era - Check out the Jade Falcons Thunderbolt IIC in TRO Prototypes.

[Pa Weasley]

Improved heavy lasers were developed by Clan Goliath Scorpion and entered production 3069. Not a Society exclusive weapon.

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's

Have you taken a look at the Vulture Mk IV D or the Lament -4RC in the record sheets?
*EDIT*
An extremely quick review of 3145 finds improved heavy lasers in at least one configuration/varient of the: Wendigo, Savage Wolf, Mad Dog Mk IV, Hel, Wulfen, Warwolf, and Lament. That's not even counting NTNU units and I know there's several tucked in there.

Improved Heavy Lasers have been spotted in IS clan designs even in the early republic era - Check out the Jade Falcons Thunderbolt IIC in TRO Prototypes.

TRO: Prototypes also has the Stinger IIC and Ursus 3.

[GreekFire]

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's so far. but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR (when all contact with the IS was lost), i doubt they are all that common in the IS. i'd have said completely non-existent save for your response.. i'm willing to be proven wrong here, but i doubt improved heavies will be very widespread. (i do know that plenty of regular heavy lasers are still in use)

Ah, ok. The 3145:Clan and NTNU record sheets have a lot of new variants/machines (omni or otherwise) with iHLs.
They're pretty good weapons, and especially deadly on stuff like the new dasher (4 iMHLs w/ MASC+Supercharger). I still have to agree with Jellico; more than two of them and I start getting nervous. Things like the Black Hawk I (with 5 iHMLs in one arm) make me veeeery afraid for my pilot. I'd never use that config in a campaign, that's for sure.

[Vash The Stampede]

Man I am behind the fluff. I tend to be more excited about the mechs than their actual equipment, but I also consider what exactly that mech or tank offers as far as it's uses are concerned. I'm curious about whether or not fielding a Savage Wolf prime would be any different to having the Tmberwolf D on the field. Same for the Mad Dog IV. I bet most if the advantage is the Ferro-Lamellar employed on the IV models.

Now these Paladin tanks look exciting. My dad used those with deadly efficiency in Clicky-tech, so I can only imagine their power in B-tech

[Mastergunz]

My absolute favorite piece of new tech (comparatively anyway) is IJJ's. I've spent the last few weeks playing through all the new designs and admittedly a few have me scratching my head. Case-in-point the Trebaruna really stands out as possibly the WORST use of them so far, lol.

Weighing in at 95 tons it packs in 16tons worth of these things all for a whopping 1 additional jump movement! Seriously? In order to do this they had to give it an XL Gyro AND LFF Armor, both expensive pieces of upgrades. Not to mention the terrible blind spot it has on the sides and rear.

Truth be told the thing is an absolute beast to kill. In 4 games I ran the Xj (GR, paired SNPPC's, TC) it was the last mech standing every time.

I just couldn't get past the quite obvious design flaw though so I redesigned it which ended up with a cheaper and much more effective design.

Dropping the 4 Ijj's to 3 standard, downgrading the XL Gyro to standard and removing the LFF Armor allows for the addition of an additonal DHS (in the engine no less!) maxed out armor and the real winner, the addition of mech turret for the snubbies effectively taking away any fear of flanking manuvers by fast buggers. IIRC I even had enough left over to armor some of the internal components but I can't recall which ones...

As for some of the other designs that use them beautifully the Zues X3 and the Uziel 8S come to mind.  O0


Sorry, that was a bit of a thread jack.  #P

-Gunz

[Gray Jaguar]

Man I am behind the fluff. I tend to be more excited about the mechs than their actual equipment, but I also consider what exactly that mech or tank offers as far as it's uses are concerned. I'm curious about whether or not fielding a Savage Wolf prime would be any different to having the Tmberwolf D on the field. Same for the Mad Dog IV. I bet most if the advantage is the Ferro-Lamellar employed on the IV models.

Sometimes, its all in the head.  Ferro-Lamellar is great overall for survivability at the cost of bulk.  However, I do love the neat Quirks that can make the difference which is why the MadCat Mk IV is hands down my favorite design to come out thus far even with all of its flaws.  Plus, you have to love the appearance of some of the newer Mechs.  The Mk IVs, Stalker II, and Gauntlet are beautiful to behold :D

[Vash The Stampede]

Let's not forget the Dola, that thing is wicked looking, kind of like a Gurkha. But yeah totally, a lot of 3145 stuff has some promising features in future combat.

[Jellico]

My absolute favorite piece of new tech (comparatively anyway) is IJJ's. I've spent the last few weeks playing through all the new designs and admittedly a few have me scratching my head. Case-in-point the Trebaruna really stands out as possibly the WORST use of them so far, lol.

Weighing in at 95 tons it packs in 16tons worth of these things all for a whopping 1 additional jump movement! Seriously? In order to do this they had to give it an XL Gyro AND LFF Armor, both expensive pieces of upgrades. Not to mention the terrible blind spot it has on the sides and rear.

Truth be told the thing is an absolute beast to kill. In 4 games I ran the Xj (GR, paired SNPPC's, TC) it was the last mech standing every time.

I just couldn't get past the quite obvious design flaw though so I redesigned it which ended up with a cheaper and much more effective design.

Dropping the 4 Ijj's to 3 standard, downgrading the XL Gyro to standard and removing the LFF Armor allows for the addition of an additonal DHS (in the engine no less!) maxed out armor and the real winner, the addition of mech turret for the snubbies effectively taking away any fear of flanking manuvers by fast buggers. IIRC I even had enough left over to armor some of the internal components but I can't recall which ones...

As for some of the other designs that use them beautifully the Zues X3 and the Uziel 8S come to mind.  O0


Sorry, that was a bit of a thread jack.  #P

-Gunz

I am sure this has been discussed elsewhere.
The really big IJJ 'Mechs are all about unusual mobility with great slabs of armour. See the IJJ Marauder IIs too. It is a niche, but it works.

[Scotty]

I believe Mastergunz's problem with the Trebaruna is that it isn't unusual, and could probably accomplish the exact same thing with a larger engine and standard jump jets instead.

Upon further review, it cannot, but the point is that four jump on an Assault is neither unheard of nor particularly useful.

[Paul]

but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR

Neither of those things is correct.
It's true that the Society initially ensured the Clans were provided weaker copies of the HL and ATM technology, which became widespread. But that's not the same as being exclusively available to the Society; that only proved true for the iATMs.
iHLs are widespread.

[SCC]

I believe Mastergunz's problem with the Trebaruna is that it isn't unusual, and could probably accomplish the exact same thing with a larger engine and standard jump jets instead.

Upon further review, it cannot, but the point is that four jump on an Assault is neither unheard of nor particularly useful.

But it could switch to using 3 standard JJ (6 tons) backed up by a Partial wing (4.5 tons) as a cheaper way to get that much speed

[stoicfaux]

I just do not see the boost being significant enough to justify the loss of the extra features of the standards in any case.  Besides, those extra features give the standard racks enough of an advantage in some situations to allow them to remain viable even if the streaks have a major advantage in direct combat.  After all, a Streak LRM Carrier would be a lot less useful than the standard due to the loss of indirect fire to protect its thin skin even with the weight of the IS launchers.

Well, if you don't like Streak LRMs, then you don't like HAGs?  Personally, I see Streak LRMs as a replacement for HAGs.  A SLRM20 is roughly equivalent to a HAG30.

[Diablo48]

Well, if you don't like Streak LRMs, then you don't like HAGs?  Personally, I see Streak LRMs as a replacement for HAGs.  A SLRM20 is roughly equivalent to a HAG30.

The HAGs get a flack bonus for anti-aircaft work which is a major advantage over all types of LRMs and can be tied to a Targeting Computer for even more fun.  Also, the HAG-40 is significantly more efficient than the -30 and especially the -20.

[Wrayth]

HAGs also have a short range of 8.  That can be very, VERY useful at times.

[Diablo48]

HAGs also have a short range of 8.  That can be very, VERY useful at times.

That and another 3 hexes of maximum range which was the change I suggested for the Streak LRMs.

[verybad]

Well since the warriors caste used to live by the rules of honorable dueling, yes it makes sense the clans would not use it.  Now that the Inner Sphere clans have loosened up a bit, it makes sense for them to start using it. 

The IS clans did not have a lot of opportunity to capture Society tech and research.  The Sharks might have some of it, but for the most part the Inner Sphere clans had bigger concerns during the Society rebellion.

THey certainly didn't seem to find using targeting computers against opponents that didn't have one dishonorable. So I'd have to say they were off their rockers and realized it finally.

[theothersarah]

HAGs also have a short range of 8.  That can be very, VERY useful at times.

The +2 cluster bonus at short range that is not affected by ECM like Artemis is (combined with the long short range as you have mentioned) makes HAGs really nice. I like the Thunder Stallion with the HAG40 and LB20-X.

[Prince of Darkness]

I don't understand why anyone argues FOR the clans using stealth armor- it's like saying "These guys hit way harder than mine, but it would be better if it was MORE difficult for me!"

[Diablo48]

I don't understand why anyone argues FOR the clans using stealth armor- it's like saying "These guys hit way harder than mine, but it would be better if it was MORE difficult for me!"

Because not using it is stupid.

[Gus]

Neither of those things is correct.
It's true that the Society initially ensured the Clans were provided weaker copies of the HL and ATM technology, which became widespread. But that's not the same as being exclusively available to the Society; that only proved true for the iATMs.
iHLs are widespread.

I can remember several references in WoR and even ISP2 about the Society providing hamstrug examples of ATM. Where might I find references to them doing the same for Heavy Lasers?

[Paul]

The Heavy Laser is the weaker cousin of the iHL. The iHL is what was initially developed, but not what was initially released to the Warrior Caste.

[Jackmc]

I am also not especially surprised by the proliferation of Streak LRMs, although that is honestly not a technology that I am terribly impressed with.  Sure conserving ammo is nice, but they weigh so much more than standards that you do not really gain anything from the change in combat and the extra cost of the ammo means they are not really any easier on the logistics end either.

I think your analysis is a bit off. on the logistics side.  Higher cost per unit doesn't necessarily equal bad.  Frex.  Right now it costs somewhere north of $400 USD to get a gallon of diesel fuel to a FOB in Afghanistan.  Keep in mind that less than 2% of that costs is the gallon of diesel, and the rest is shipping costs. 

If tomorrow someone were to come up with a "Super" diesel that functioned ideitcally to diesel except that it gave you 5 times more mpg/run time than standard diesel, but at ten times the cost, the military would be all over it.  It would allow them to ship the equivalent of a frex. 100 gallons of deisel for around 25% of the cost of what they are paying now.

Streak LRM's function in similary way since log chains in BT are so ardous and constrained.  They are trading a high per unit cost for the abilityto simplfy your log issues not just on the shipping side but also the strain placed on your ammo reloading resources as well. 

Now in fairness, it gains that by a pretty steep cost to a combat units throw weight.  Whether that is justified or not depends on the doctrine of the force fielding them and on the realities of the battlefield they will fight on.  Frex.  I could see them more relaistically on a company or Batt-sized roving "troubleshooter" or raider unit but not so much on a RCT-sized formation that's used to fighting pitched battles with the majority of its assets (inlcuding its vast number of log units) present or say the garrison statioend to provide close-in defense to an LRM plant.

-Jackmc         

[Diablo48]

I think your analysis is a bit off. on the logistics side.  Higher cost per unit doesn't necessarily equal bad.  Frex.  Right now it costs somewhere north of $400 USD to get a gallon of diesel fuel to a FOB in Afghanistan.  Keep in mind that less than 2% of that costs is the gallon of diesel, and the rest is shipping costs. 

If tomorrow someone were to come up with a "Super" diesel that functioned ideitcally to diesel except that it gave you 5 times more mpg/run time than standard diesel, but at ten times the cost, the military would be all over it.  It would allow them to ship the equivalent of a frex. 100 gallons of deisel for around 25% of the cost of what they are paying now.

Streak LRM's function in similary way since log chains in BT are so ardous and constrained.  They are trading a high per unit cost for the abilityto simplfy your log issues not just on the shipping side but also the strain placed on your ammo reloading resources as well. 

Now in fairness, it gains that by a pretty steep cost to a combat units throw weight.  Whether that is justified or not depends on the doctrine of the force fielding them and on the realities of the battlefield they will fight on.  Frex.  I could see them more relaistically on a company or Batt-sized roving "troubleshooter" or raider unit but not so much on a RCT-sized formation that's used to fighting pitched battles with the majority of its assets (inlcuding its vast number of log units) present or say the garrison statioend to provide close-in defense to an LRM plant.

-Jackmc       

You do have a point, although if it is really that hard to get ammo out there then you should probably be sticking with energy weapons whenever possible.  Streak LRMs loose the special munitions anyways so that is no longer an argument for using them over ERPPCs, and that infinite ammo is very appealing from a logistics standpoint.

[Scotty]

Simultaneously, Streak LRMs are not affected by the ever-more-prevalent reflective armor.  That alone is enough to make me want to grab one.

[Maelwys]

Of course, one has to wonder how prevalent Reflective armor is going to be with Re-Engineered lasers.

If the lasers only ignored the bonus from Reflective armor, I might not think that they'd be too common, and reflective armor would have a chance.

But with Re-Engineered lasers negating alot of the specialty armors, I'm not sure why you wouldn't take some in a force.

[Diablo48]

Of course, one has to wonder how prevalent Reflective armor is going to be with Re-Engineered lasers.

If the lasers only ignored the bonus from Reflective armor, I might not think that they'd be too common, and reflective armor would have a chance.

But with Re-Engineered lasers negating alot of the specialty armors, I'm not sure why you wouldn't take some in a force.

Their performance against other armor types is at or below the standard lasers even with the bonuses, although it is still better than nothing.

[Jellico]

Reflective armour isn't that great on 'Mechs.
1. Laser weapons aren't as prevalent as say in Aerospace Fighters. So two thirds of the time it is no better than standard plate.
2. Physical damage and Reflective armour doesn't mix. Physical damage is extra damaging. I don't mean axes here. I mean falling over after 20 point hits etc.

Now ASF, Tanks and BA, none of which fall over are a different story (and BA Reflective doesn't have the physical penalties).



I find myself wondering if 3145 tech is about to render ranged weapons less effective. Took the Executioner I for a spin last night. In general terms it could close the range on just about anything, while still having the armour to be fully effective at short range.

We have had fast 'Mechs doing this kind of thing before. 10 hex movment is classic medium 'Mech territory. But mediums can't carry 200+ points of armour as well as useful weapons. And an Executioner is not a great chassis. Imagine a 75 tonner with MASC and a Supercharger.

Now why does this render ranged weapons less effective? Ranged weapons are heavy. Compare the Executioner F and I. 18 tons of guns vs 14. The F can't mount the firepower to stop the I getting into combat ranges. Only terrain features and blocking units can save it. Unless the gunner is very very good a Hellstar can be routinely dropped by an Executioner I. That has got to give pause for thought.

Now clearly ranged weapons still have a role. But has the technology move far enough so that the 'Mechs are fast enough and the short ranged weapons strong enough that decisive combat will revolve around dogfighting under 10 hexes rather than 20 hex sniper wars?

[Diplominator]

Reflective armour isn't that great on 'Mechs.
1. Laser weapons aren't as prevalent as say in Aerospace Fighters. So two thirds of the time it is no better than standard plate.
2. Physical damage and Reflective armour doesn't mix. Physical damage is extra damaging. I don't mean axes here. I mean falling over after 20 point hits etc.

Now ASF, Tanks and BA, none of which fall over are a different story (and BA Reflective doesn't have the physical penalties).



I find myself wondering if 3145 tech is about to render ranged weapons less effective. Took the Executioner I for a spin last night. In general terms it could close the range on just about anything, while still having the armour to be fully effective at short range.

We have had fast 'Mechs doing this kind of thing before. 10 hex movment is classic medium 'Mech territory. But mediums can't carry 200+ points of armour as well as useful weapons. And an Executioner is not a great chassis. Imagine a 75 tonner with MASC and a Supercharger.

Now why does this render ranged weapons less effective? Ranged weapons are heavy. Compare the Executioner F and I. 18 tons of guns vs 14. The F can't mount the firepower to stop the I getting into combat ranges. Only terrain features and blocking units can save it. Unless the gunner is very very good a Hellstar can be routinely dropped by an Executioner I. That has got to give pause for thought.

Now clearly ranged weapons still have a role. But has the technology move far enough so that the 'Mechs are fast enough and the short ranged weapons strong enough that decisive combat will revolve around dogfighting under 10 hexes rather than 20 hex sniper wars?

Enhanced mobility cuts both ways. Newer stuff like the Gyrfalcon can outrange and outrun almost everything while still doing enough damage to be hard to ignore. If it uses the mobility to the fullest it won't hit that often, but it's got plenty of LB-X ammo, not to mention the ERLLs.

That said, you're probably not wrong. There's a lot of new defensive and mobility options between IJJ, partial wings, proliferation of new armor types, Harjel...surviving to get into close range is easier than ever.

[Bratwurst]

One new trend I have noticed and enjoyed from the 3145 stuff is that the headcappers' rule of terror is significantly dampened, thanks to the new technologies available. The humble Combine footsoldier, Rockybobroboturkey (sic), can take a hit from a gauss or a cERPPC and walk it off well enough, as can the Shiro and a number of other models. Reflective and ballistic-reinforced armor offer more situational head protection, and the increasing numbers of torso cockpit mechs quite literally "play it safe" on behalf of protecting the squishy bits. The ex-Cat Wendigo is a wonderful example, but my star pupil for pilot safety would be the Lyran Commonwealth's stalwart Götbangdondrumset (sic). 

;)

[Weirdo]

One new trend I have noticed and enjoyed from the 3145 stuff is that the headcappers' rule of terror is significantly dampened, thanks to the new technologies available. The humble Combine footsoldier, Rockybobroboturkey (sic), can take a hit from a gauss or a cERPPC and walk it off well enough, as can the Shiro and a number of other models. Reflective and ballistic-reinforced armor offer more situational head protection, and the increasing numbers of torso cockpit mechs quite literally "play it safe" on behalf of protecting the squishy bits. The ex-Cat Wendigo is a wonderful example, but my star pupil for pilot safety would be the Lyran Commonwealth's stalwart Götbangdondrumset (sic).

Dear CGL,

Please get this guy to name all future 'mechs.

Thank you.

[Bratwurst]

Dear CGL,

Please get this guy to name all future 'mechs.

Thank you.

Eh, thanks! Pleasure's all mine! Dyslexia is one hell of a durg.