'New School' - Mech design in 3145

[verybad]

Well since the warriors caste used to live by the rules of honorable dueling, yes it makes sense the clans would not use it.  Now that the Inner Sphere clans have loosened up a bit, it makes sense for them to start using it. 

Not really, if you can't use defensive technology, then AMS and running fast in order to be hard to hit or even armor could be considered dishonorable. I can't see how stealth technology would be considered dishonorable.

[Diablo48]

Not really, if you can't use defensive technology, then AMS and running fast in order to be hard to hit or even armor could be considered dishonorable. I can't see how stealth technology would be considered dishonorable.

It is just another case of arbitrary out-of-universe limits placed on the Clans that does not actually make any sense from a Clan point of view.

[MadCapellan]

Not really, if you can't use defensive technology, then AMS and running fast in order to be hard to hit or even armor could be considered dishonorable. I can't see how stealth technology would be considered dishonorable.

I'm pretty sure the official reasoning is that stealth armor implies an intent to hide, and thus ambush, and thus act dishonorably. If it only granted to-hit modifiers, it'd be just fine. It's that it allows you to sneak up on people that marks the user as a sneak, thus impugning their personal honor.

[Diablo48]

I'm pretty sure the official reasoning is that stealth armor implies an intent to hide, and thus ambush, and thus act dishonorably. If it only granted to-hit modifiers, it'd be just fine. It's that it allows you to sneak up on people that marks the user as a sneak, thus impugning their personal honor.

Not under TW rules, and there is no reason the Clans have to use that capability anyways.  It works just fine as a piece of defensive equipment in direct combat and should not be assumed to be an intent to hide.

[MadCapellan]

It works just fine as a piece of defensive equipment in direct combat and should not be assumed to be an intent to hide.

For whatever reason, however, that's how the Clans saw it culturally.  I don't believe in-universe anyone really thinks about what aspects of a piece of equipment are tournament legal. It's a distinction which only exists in our personal table-top games.

[Diablo48]

For whatever reason, however, that's how the Clans saw it culturally.

I refer you back to my earlier post on the subject.  These restrictions make no sense within the context of the Clan mindset as originally described, they are decided in order to enforce a Clan/IS split in places it should not reasonably exist and then ascribed to Clan culture after the fact in the hopes that no one notices.

There are still some technologies like C3 which make sense to leave out (with a handful of exceptions), but there are many more that the Clans should have jumped on a long time ago.

I don't believe in-universe anyone really thinks about what aspects of a piece of equipment are tournament legal. It's a distinction which only exists in our personal table-top games.

Agreed, but it is worth pointing out.

[MadCapellan]

I refer you back to my earlier post on the subject.  These restrictions make no sense within the context of the Clan mindset as originally described, they are decided in order to enforce a Clan/IS split in places it should not reasonably exist and then ascribed to Clan culture after the fact in the hopes that no one notices.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The Clan culture is one which has experienced hundreds of years of ritualized warfare. Battles had ceased to be military endeavors, and had become formalized duels where you announced the time and place of the trial, declared your assets, and met to decide the results in combat.  Just as weapons such as artillery faded into obscurity as they were seen as a poor way to earn honor, so to would a Clan warrior who used equipment that gave the impression he intended to sneak around instead of fight fairly find his honor impugned by using such equipment. I suspect that there was never a strict ban on stealth equipment amongst the Clans, simply that there were few examples of Null Signature with the Clans at the time of their initial formation, and that over the years machines operating it were seen as shady and less desirable, prompting no new ones to be built. Eventually, they disappeared all together, to the point that everyone just assumed that they shouldn't be used, sort of like physical attacks.

[Diablo48]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The Clan culture is one which has experienced hundreds of years of ritualized warfare. Battles had ceased to be military endeavors, and had become formalized duels where you announced the time and place of the trial, declared your assets, and met to decide the results in combat.  Just as weapons such as artillery faded into obscurity as they were seen as a poor way to earn honor, so to would a Clan warrior who used equipment that gave the impression he intended to sneak around instead of fight fairly find his honor impugned by using such equipment. I suspect that there was never a strict ban on stealth equipment amongst the Clans, simply that there were few examples of Null Signature with the Clans at the time of their initial formation, and that over the years machines operating it were seen as shady and less desirable, prompting no new ones to be built. Eventually, they disappeared all together, to the point that everyone just assumed that they shouldn't be used, sort of like physical attacks.

And yet every Clan maintains active and capable artillery units including the Falcons who are explicitly stated to use the Huitzilopochtli.  The Wolves even built a dedicated artillery omni long after the dueling traditions had set in.  Lots of people seem to want to disregard these details, but the Clans have always been far more pragmatic than they are usually given credit for.

[MadCapellan]

And yet every Clan maintains active and capable artillery units including the Falcons who are explicitly stated to use the Huitzilopochtli.  The Wolves even built a dedicated artillery omni long after the dueling traditions had set in.  Lots of people seem to want to disregard these details, but the Clans have always been far more pragmatic than they are usually given credit for.

A 'Mech can still be hidden without stealth armor.  A combat unit cannot deliver indirect fire from kilometers away without artillery. I'd say that's a key difference. Swatting bandit caste positions with artillery because it's beneath the warriors to actually go in and shoot them where they stand is pretty well in keeping with the Clan mindset. Continuing to manufacture specialized equipment so that you can sneak up on bandits and kill them with a surprised look on their face sounds like a waste of resources from a Clan perspective.

[False Son]

And yet every Clan maintains active and capable artillery units including the Falcons who are explicitly stated to use the Huitzilopochtli.  The Wolves even built a dedicated artillery omni long after the dueling traditions had set in.  Lots of people seem to want to disregard these details, but the Clans have always been far more pragmatic than they are usually given credit for.

And true to clan nature, the homeworld clans readily agreed the use of artillery in trials was bad.  Meanwhile, the practical clan, Wolf was stepping up their game.  I'd question this perception, as well.  Plenty of mechs were built with TAG.  What exactly were they supposed to be used  for if artillery was offlimits?  It might not be right for Trials, as shown by the reaction to Ulric K's death.  But, in star vs star or larger, it may be legit.  It would just be weird that even units like protomechs are getting TAG if A4 is out of the question.

[MadCapellan]

It would just be weird that even units like protomechs are getting TAG if A4 is out of the question.

Yet, ProtoMechs are really a development of the way the Clans were already starting to adapt to exposure to the Inner Sphere. Since Zellbriggen was not required against Inner Sphere opponents, and the Clan that developed them were in a life-or-death struggle against the Inner Sphere, it'd be unsurprising that TAG would appear on ProtoMechs.

[Diablo48]

A 'Mech can still be hidden without stealth armor.  A combat unit cannot deliver indirect fire from kilometers away without artillery. I'd say that's a key difference. Swatting bandit caste positions with artillery because it's beneath the warriors to actually go in and shoot them where they stand is pretty well in keeping with the Clan mindset. Continuing to manufacture specialized equipment so that you can sneak up on bandits and kill them with a surprised look on their face sounds like a waste of resources from a Clan perspective.

So what you are saying is that artillery is more restrictive than stealth technology in the eyes of the Clans, so given the fact that we know the Clans do use artillery it is only logical that they would also use the less restrictive stealth technologies.  I believe you have made my case for me.

Yet, ProtoMechs are really a development of the way the Clans were already starting to adapt to exposure to the Inner Sphere. Since Zellbriggen was not required against Inner Sphere opponents, and the Clan that developed them were in a life-or-death struggle against the Inner Sphere, it'd be unsurprising that TAG would appear on ProtoMechs.

What about all the pre-3050 designs with TAG?  It was very clearly in use before the invasion on front line omnis, so it is hardly new.

[MadCapellan]

So what you are saying is that artillery is more restrictive than stealth technology in the eyes of the Clans,

I'm certain I said quite the opposite. What artillery does cannot be duplicated by something else.  What stealth armor does is enhance the performance of something un-Clanlike that 'Mechs can already do.

[Weirdo]

What about all the pre-3050 designs with TAG?  It was very clearly in use before the invasion on front line omnis, so it is hardly new.

Even front-line forces have to be prepared for all eventualities. They may prefer the dueling system, but there will always be the occasional need to smash bandit bunkers, solahma tanks, proper Clan forces that prove themselves dezgra...you know things that are not worth dueling and need to be smashed flat ASAP lest they challenge the proper order of things.

[Col Toda]

I agree with your first point for internal structure almost every design can afford the 7 Crit spaces for Endo - Compsite  for the Assault class mech and endosteel proper for everything else. I am one of those Kuritians going against the stream on the second point I still think the throw weight in long range engagement for standard LRM launchers and the combat vehicle killing power of the MRM + Apollo combo is a viable choice . On your point of engine type 85 - 100 ton assaults still are better off with a standard or light engine though 80 ton ones tend to have and XL engine  as does everything else as a consequence CASE II should be more popular . Still using 3085 tech with a more practiced tactical doctrine than 3145 tech should ; short term ; still kick the newer stuffs ass . It all revolves around a player's learning curve in adapting the new stuff.

[SCC]

What interests me is seeing things like standard ACs on mixed tech, clan produced designs (you know who i'm talking about).  That brings up the question of swapping PACs for LACs and gaining specialized ammo.  Worth a shot.

You do realize that PACs can already use specialty ammo, don't you? They're basically Clan LACs. In fact that PAC-8 is probably better then the LAC-5 for Armor Piercing, note that the sizes match the pattern for the class 5, 10 and 20 ACs and the ranges for the PAC just about match the ranges for those same standard AC's? I'm pretty sure that a PAC when using Armor Piercing ammo counts as an AC 2.5 times it size, so a PAC-8 calculates mods for AP ammo as if it were an AC/20

[Gryphon]

Where do you draw a 2.5 size modifier for PACs from SCC? That seems excessive, even for Clantech?

[Stinger]

I know this thread is a bit outdated, but it fit more than a new thread.

Is it safe to say that the Majority of heavy lasers have been upgraded to improved heavy lasers?

[glitterboy2098]

I know this thread is a bit outdated, but it fit more than a new thread.

Is it safe to say that the Majority of heavy lasers have been upgraded to improved heavy lasers?

in the homeworlds yes. i don't think iHL's made it to the IS, being society developed tech

[GreekFire]

in the homeworlds yes. i don't think iHL's made it to the IS, being society developed tech

Uhh...but...no offense, but have you looked at the 3145 'mechs yet?

[Jellico]

I know this thread is a bit outdated, but it fit more than a new thread.

Is it safe to say that the Majority of heavy lasers have been upgraded to improved heavy lasers?

Improved heavy lasers are a lot more explody than regular heavy lasers so a place remains for both.
I know as a designer I don't even like groups of APGRs on 'Mechs for their tendency to cascade in pilot killing feedback. At least with the big gauss rifles the pilot only gets zapped once.

[glitterboy2098]

Uhh...but...no offense, but have you looked at the 3145 'mechs yet?

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's so far. but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR (when all contact with the IS was lost), i doubt they are all that common in the IS. i'd have said completely non-existent save for your response.. i'm willing to be proven wrong here, but i doubt improved heavies will be very widespread. (i do know that plenty of regular heavy lasers are still in use)

[Picard Day]

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's so far. but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR (when all contact with the IS was lost), i doubt they are all that common in the IS. i'd have said completely non-existent save for your response.. i'm willing to be proven wrong here, but i doubt improved heavies will be very widespread. (i do know that plenty of regular heavy lasers are still in use)

Improved Heavy Lasers have been spotted in IS clan designs even in the early republic era - Check out the Jade Falcons Thunderbolt IIC in TRO Prototypes.

[Pa Weasley]

Improved heavy lasers were developed by Clan Goliath Scorpion and entered production 3069. Not a Society exclusive weapon.

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's

Have you taken a look at the Vulture Mk IV D or the Lament -4RC in the record sheets?
*EDIT*
An extremely quick review of 3145 finds improved heavy lasers in at least one configuration/varient of the: Wendigo, Savage Wolf, Mad Dog Mk IV, Hel, Wulfen, Warwolf, and Lament. That's not even counting NTNU units and I know there's several tucked in there.

Improved Heavy Lasers have been spotted in IS clan designs even in the early republic era - Check out the Jade Falcons Thunderbolt IIC in TRO Prototypes.

TRO: Prototypes also has the Stinger IIC and Ursus 3.

[GreekFire]

only been able to get Republic, Davion, and Mercs TRO's so far. but as Improved Heavy Laser's were a Society developed, and last i knew, society exclusive prior to the end of the WoR (when all contact with the IS was lost), i doubt they are all that common in the IS. i'd have said completely non-existent save for your response.. i'm willing to be proven wrong here, but i doubt improved heavies will be very widespread. (i do know that plenty of regular heavy lasers are still in use)

Ah, ok. The 3145:Clan and NTNU record sheets have a lot of new variants/machines (omni or otherwise) with iHLs.
They're pretty good weapons, and especially deadly on stuff like the new dasher (4 iMHLs w/ MASC+Supercharger). I still have to agree with Jellico; more than two of them and I start getting nervous. Things like the Black Hawk I (with 5 iHMLs in one arm) make me veeeery afraid for my pilot. I'd never use that config in a campaign, that's for sure.

[Vash The Stampede]

Man I am behind the fluff. I tend to be more excited about the mechs than their actual equipment, but I also consider what exactly that mech or tank offers as far as it's uses are concerned. I'm curious about whether or not fielding a Savage Wolf prime would be any different to having the Tmberwolf D on the field. Same for the Mad Dog IV. I bet most if the advantage is the Ferro-Lamellar employed on the IV models.

Now these Paladin tanks look exciting. My dad used those with deadly efficiency in Clicky-tech, so I can only imagine their power in B-tech

[Mastergunz]

My absolute favorite piece of new tech (comparatively anyway) is IJJ's. I've spent the last few weeks playing through all the new designs and admittedly a few have me scratching my head. Case-in-point the Trebaruna really stands out as possibly the WORST use of them so far, lol.

Weighing in at 95 tons it packs in 16tons worth of these things all for a whopping 1 additional jump movement! Seriously? In order to do this they had to give it an XL Gyro AND LFF Armor, both expensive pieces of upgrades. Not to mention the terrible blind spot it has on the sides and rear.

Truth be told the thing is an absolute beast to kill. In 4 games I ran the Xj (GR, paired SNPPC's, TC) it was the last mech standing every time.

I just couldn't get past the quite obvious design flaw though so I redesigned it which ended up with a cheaper and much more effective design.

Dropping the 4 Ijj's to 3 standard, downgrading the XL Gyro to standard and removing the LFF Armor allows for the addition of an additonal DHS (in the engine no less!) maxed out armor and the real winner, the addition of mech turret for the snubbies effectively taking away any fear of flanking manuvers by fast buggers. IIRC I even had enough left over to armor some of the internal components but I can't recall which ones...

As for some of the other designs that use them beautifully the Zues X3 and the Uziel 8S come to mind.  O0


Sorry, that was a bit of a thread jack.  #P

-Gunz

[Gray Jaguar]

Man I am behind the fluff. I tend to be more excited about the mechs than their actual equipment, but I also consider what exactly that mech or tank offers as far as it's uses are concerned. I'm curious about whether or not fielding a Savage Wolf prime would be any different to having the Tmberwolf D on the field. Same for the Mad Dog IV. I bet most if the advantage is the Ferro-Lamellar employed on the IV models.

Sometimes, its all in the head.  Ferro-Lamellar is great overall for survivability at the cost of bulk.  However, I do love the neat Quirks that can make the difference which is why the MadCat Mk IV is hands down my favorite design to come out thus far even with all of its flaws.  Plus, you have to love the appearance of some of the newer Mechs.  The Mk IVs, Stalker II, and Gauntlet are beautiful to behold :D

[Vash The Stampede]

Let's not forget the Dola, that thing is wicked looking, kind of like a Gurkha. But yeah totally, a lot of 3145 stuff has some promising features in future combat.

[Jellico]

My absolute favorite piece of new tech (comparatively anyway) is IJJ's. I've spent the last few weeks playing through all the new designs and admittedly a few have me scratching my head. Case-in-point the Trebaruna really stands out as possibly the WORST use of them so far, lol.

Weighing in at 95 tons it packs in 16tons worth of these things all for a whopping 1 additional jump movement! Seriously? In order to do this they had to give it an XL Gyro AND LFF Armor, both expensive pieces of upgrades. Not to mention the terrible blind spot it has on the sides and rear.

Truth be told the thing is an absolute beast to kill. In 4 games I ran the Xj (GR, paired SNPPC's, TC) it was the last mech standing every time.

I just couldn't get past the quite obvious design flaw though so I redesigned it which ended up with a cheaper and much more effective design.

Dropping the 4 Ijj's to 3 standard, downgrading the XL Gyro to standard and removing the LFF Armor allows for the addition of an additonal DHS (in the engine no less!) maxed out armor and the real winner, the addition of mech turret for the snubbies effectively taking away any fear of flanking manuvers by fast buggers. IIRC I even had enough left over to armor some of the internal components but I can't recall which ones...

As for some of the other designs that use them beautifully the Zues X3 and the Uziel 8S come to mind.  O0


Sorry, that was a bit of a thread jack.  #P

-Gunz

I am sure this has been discussed elsewhere.
The really big IJJ 'Mechs are all about unusual mobility with great slabs of armour. See the IJJ Marauder IIs too. It is a niche, but it works.