Author Topic: Tell me about Remote Sensors  (Read 5241 times)

grimlock1

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Tell me about Remote Sensors
« on: 22 September 2014, 13:05:51 »
Good? 
Bad?
Not worth the deuterium to shelp them around?

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #1 on: 22 September 2014, 14:44:36 »
It really depends on what you need them for. There are things they do very well, but there's also things they do pretty poorly, and if that's what you need, you're not going to be happy with their performance.

First thing to remember about remotes is that they're a lot like NARC beacons, in that the unit deploying them has to get in to the target area, possibly putting said unit in harm's way, and also delaying any use you get out of the remotes until the deploying unit can actually get there. Fast units will get there in no time, but if the enemy's already there, they may not survive the trip. There are some big units with sensor dispensers, but they're proportionately slow, so the trick is getting them there in time to do some good. Fortunately, you can try to drop off your sensors long before enemy forces get to the area, but this of course requires you to predict where the fight is going to be.

Once deployed, remote sensors have two real uses: Detecting enemy units, and spotting for indirect fire.

Detection is done in three ways(two really, but one can be split into two very different roles, so I consider them separate):

  • The remote sees units you otherwise would not have LOS to. This is most useful in double blind games, where you can drop off remotes in useful locations and have your manned units move on, greatly expanding the number of "eyes" you have for finding things and similarly cutting down on the number of hiding spots the other guy has access to.
  • The remote sees units you don't have anyone close enough to see. This is basically the same thing as Option 1, but on a strategic level. Instead of dropping off a sensor to see if an enemy 'mech moves down a particular city street, you're placing one near a major highway or in a mountain valley, to see if an enemy battalion passes through. This has the advantage of greatly expanding the area your scout forces can monitor simultaneously(so waiting until a patrol passes before sneaking through ceases to be useful), but also exposes your scouts to much less risk. The cost of replacing even a handful of remote sensors is far less than the cost of replacing even a cheap scout car - and its crew.
  • The remote has the ability to detect hidden units in the same manner as an active probe. This is pretty hard to use, for two reasons: The sensor's detection radius is very small, and obviously, it is immobile. Unlike any other scout in the game, once deployed, it cannot move if it doesn't spot anything, you have to be lucky/smart enough to drop the sensor almost right on top of the hidden enemies, or drop enough remotes to cover the entire map. On the upside, most maps don't really have all that many suitable ambush points, so you can narrow things down pretty quickly. Also, don't forget that while it is technically advanced rules gear, remote sensor technology isn't one that was lost during the Succession Wars. Unless you're lucky enough to get some of Liao's then-new Ravens, this lets you do stuff that is otherwise impossible until the Beagle Probe gets reintroduced.

Just like detection, remote sensors can be use to spot for indirect fire in multiple ways:

  • Remotes can spot for LRM fire just like any manned unit. They're pretty bad at this, imposing a stiff penalty on what is usually already a tricky shot, but the very fact that you can do this without exposing a manned unit can be pretty useful. Don't expect to kill anything or even hit much, but the sheer fact that the targets are under active fire can force them to stay on their toes, and lucky hits do happen. This is Battletech, after all.
  • Remotes can also spot for artillery fire, and they're actually better at this than LRM fire. I'm not really a fan of using artillery spotters in tactical games, but that's usually because most games I've ever seen are too fluid and fast-moving for me to ever need to hit a single hex more than once, or to even take the time to zero in shots in that manner. It is useful for some people though, and for those, just like LRM spotters, there can be a benefit to spotting without exposing manned units.
  • To me, the greatest potential for remote sensor spotting is in strategic artillery spotting. Just like strategic detection, this is about having a remote see an enemy force go by, and you being able to drop shells on troops that are not expecting combat. While you can guess that the other guy is moving through an area and try to blanket the whole mapsheet in HE, having a remote sensor present means you know he's on that map, and even know which hexes to aim at. Scatter will continue to be the pain it always is, but this will allow you to cluster your shots for best effect, instead of going for blanket coverage in hopes of hitting something.

All that aside, remote sensors do have their weakness that you have to take into account, lest they turn out to be useless to you.

First off, a remote sensor is a short-term solution to any problem. They're very immobile and VERY fragile, so any given sensor that pisses the other guy off has a lifespan measurable in moments. Don't expect to get more than one or two turns' use out of any given sensor in any tactical game, so if you want constant coverage of an area, you have to either drop a LOT of sensors, or keep dropping new ones to replace those you've lost.

Second, remotes are easy to jam. Not only will any form of ECM covering a remote cut off the signall, so will any ECM covering the manned unit monitoring the sensor, or any ECM blocking a straight line between the remote and the monitoring unit.

Finally, remotes still need people monitoring them, and any given unit is very limited in how many remotes it can monitor at once. Units can mount gear that can handle multiple feeds like Comm Gear, Active Probes, or C3 Masters, but on average any given combat unit will only be able to monitor a single remote sensor per turn. This means that you could easily find yourself having a battlefield seeded with over a dozen remotes, but only able to receive data from three or four of them at once, forced to ignore the feeds from the rest at that moment. If this happens, you have to decide which remote sensors you're going to monitor, and which you're going to ignore in any given turn. Choose wisely.
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GreekFire

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #2 on: 22 September 2014, 15:22:56 »
Wow, as someone who's never used Remote Sensors, that was a really informative post! Thanks, Weirdo!
Sorry for jacking the thread a bit, but I'm seeing a Vandal OmniFighter config with dual remote sensors. Can they be dropped off while flying in atmosphere? Do they have a use in space?
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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #3 on: 22 September 2014, 15:28:40 »
In order: Yes, and no. You can airdrop 'em just fine, a really easy way to spread a bunch out over a large area quickly. (Beware of AA though; Vandals to not react well to bullets.) They don't do anything in space though, their range is FAR too short to be useful on a space map.
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GreekFire

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #4 on: 22 September 2014, 15:36:01 »
Cooool. Those Vandals must be mighty useful on the strategic level.
The Pouncer F also looks very nice. Seed an entire area with remote sensors, and if something trips one, run over and fry it to death.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #5 on: 22 September 2014, 16:58:04 »
I am seeing a lot of possibilities for that Vandal configuration, especially in defensive rolls which meshes nicely with the fluff about it being mostly a second line machine.  Your core defensive position would have a command post with a mountain of comm gear for monitoring a huge network of air-dropped sensors along with a whole mess of tube artillery to shell anyone the sensors spot.  The moment you detect a possible threat, you scramble the Vandals to use their incredible speed to seed the area with sensors before returning to base to be reconfigured into another variant like the D for the actual fighting.  The sensors and artillery then make life miserable for the enemy as they work their way towards the base and should make the actual fight little more than a formality.


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mbear

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #6 on: 23 September 2014, 06:32:07 »
Just like detection, remote sensors can be use to spot for indirect fire in multiple ways:

  • Remotes can also spot for artillery fire, and they're actually better at this than LRM fire. I'm not really a fan of using artillery spotters in tactical games, but that's usually because most games I've ever seen are too fluid and fast-moving for me to ever need to hit a single hex more than once, or to even take the time to zero in shots in that manner. It is useful for some people though, and for those, just like LRM spotters, there can be a benefit to spotting without exposing manned units.
It sounds like the best combination for using remote sensors as spotters would be Mech Mortars. Those are basically tactical artillery, right?


In order: Yes, and no. You can airdrop 'em just fine, a really easy way to spread a bunch out over a large area quickly. (Beware of AA though; Vandals to not react well to bullets.) They don't do anything in space though, their range is FAR too short to be useful on a space map.

And I assume you can deploy them from VTOLs or WiGEs. Does the VTOL/WiGE have to stop/land to deploy the sensor? (I don't have my rules with me otherwise I'd just look it up.)
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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #7 on: 23 September 2014, 09:11:31 »
It sounds like the best combination for using remote sensors as spotters would be Mech Mortars. Those are basically tactical artillery, right?

Actually, the answer to that is no. The penalty for using a remote sensor as an IDF spotter is actually higher than the penalty for firing a mortar with no spotter at all. If you've got a mortar/sensor combo unit like the Ant Lion, my advice would be to use the sensors to spot for other people, or to fight a double blind game, where spotter or no, you still need to find out where the enemy is first.

Oh, and 'Mech Mortars are nothing like artillery, and expecting them to behave as such will leave you with an unfair impression that mortars just suck. They're very useful, but arty-light isn't one of those uses. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Quote
And I assume you can deploy them from VTOLs or WiGEs. Does the VTOL/WiGE have to stop/land to deploy the sensor? (I don't have my rules with me otherwise I'd just look it up.)

I'm really not sure here. Given that Aeros can deploy them from Altitude, I highly doubt that VTOLs or WiGEs need to land to drop 'em. Best make sure, though.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #8 on: 23 September 2014, 17:28:18 »
Oh, and 'Mech Mortars are nothing like artillery, and expecting them to behave as such will leave you with an unfair impression that mortars just suck. They're very useful, but arty-light isn't one of those uses. But that's a discussion for another thread.

This is kind of off topic, but I do not have a lot of experience with 'Mech mortars so I would be interested in reading some kind of analysis of them if you feel up to it given that I am probably not the only person who has not run them enough to get a really solid idea of what they do in practice.


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GreekFire

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #9 on: 23 September 2014, 17:41:20 »
I like how this is turning into an "ask weirdo" thread, haha
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Phobos

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #10 on: 24 September 2014, 03:53:58 »

Second, remotes are easy to jam. Not only will any form of ECM covering a remote cut off the signall, so will any ECM covering the manned unit monitoring the sensor, or any ECM blocking a straight line between the remote and the monitoring unit.



Is this also true for units with active stealth armor?
Or do you mean an enemy unit with active ECM has the monitoring unit within its ECM bubble?

Yeah, I guess you meant that. Nevermind me then.  :)
« Last Edit: 24 September 2014, 04:09:29 by Phobos »

SCC

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #11 on: 24 September 2014, 06:34:13 »
Is this also true for units with active stealth armor?
Or do you mean an enemy unit with active ECM has the monitoring unit within its ECM bubble?

Yeah, I guess you meant that. Nevermind me then.  :)
Yes, units with operational Stealth Armor are treated as being under the effect a HOSTILE ECM system

grimlock1

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #12 on: 24 September 2014, 08:16:25 »
I like how this is turning into an "ask weirdo" thread, haha
Sorry to dogpile on you Weirdo.
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grimlock1

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #13 on: 24 September 2014, 08:24:06 »
I am seeing a lot of possibilities for that Vandal configuration, especially in defensive rolls which meshes nicely with the fluff about it being mostly a second line machine.  Your core defensive position would have a command post with a mountain of comm gear for monitoring a huge network of air-dropped sensors

Could a fixed battalion level command center reasonably have the aforementioned "mountain of comm gear?"  Especially if you know that your recon lances have remote sensor dispensers?
For context, think merc battalion who specializes in facility protection.  The remote sensor spreaders are there to patch holes in the fixed sensor net cause by enemy action.
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Nahuris

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #14 on: 24 September 2014, 13:28:20 »
Actually, the answer to that is no. The penalty for using a remote sensor as an IDF spotter is actually higher than the penalty for firing a mortar with no spotter at all. If you've got a mortar/sensor combo unit like the Ant Lion, my advice would be to use the sensors to spot for other people, or to fight a double blind game, where spotter or no, you still need to find out where the enemy is first.

Oh, and 'Mech Mortars are nothing like artillery, and expecting them to behave as such will leave you with an unfair impression that mortars just suck. They're very useful, but arty-light isn't one of those uses. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I'm really not sure here. Given that Aeros can deploy them from Altitude, I highly doubt that VTOLs or WiGEs need to land to drop 'em. Best make sure, though.

At the same time, that Antlion CAN use the remotes to watch for the enemy moving in an area, or to spot hidden units moving through a city, and then fire without using them....

What I would LOVE to see is maybe a Mech Mortar shell, or an Arrow IV shell that airbursts sensors over an area....... even if you just fire it off to spook the enemy, it's still an advantage, due to the threat of artillery.

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #15 on: 24 September 2014, 13:30:53 »
At the same time, that Antlion CAN use the remotes to watch for the enemy moving in an area, or to spot hidden units moving through a city, and then fire without using them....
That's exactly what I was saying. O0
Quote
What I would LOVE to see is maybe a Mech Mortar shell, or an Arrow IV shell that airbursts sensors over an area....... even if you just fire it off to spook the enemy, it's still an advantage, due to the threat of artillery.
The end result sounds like an artillery-delivered drone. An interesting idea.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #16 on: 24 September 2014, 16:53:09 »
Could a fixed battalion level command center reasonably have the aforementioned "mountain of comm gear?"  Especially if you know that your recon lances have remote sensor dispensers?
For context, think merc battalion who specializes in facility protection.  The remote sensor spreaders are there to patch holes in the fixed sensor net cause by enemy action.

For mercs you would have to have a mobile command post to make it work because they will need to bring it with them, although there is absolutely no reason you could not make an overgrown vehicle with a small engine using either the superheavy combat vehicle rules or, more likely, the support vehicle rules.  It is also very possible to build a command post inside a large DropShip which could be anything from an Overlord to a Mule and would also transport everything else you needed for convenience.

This might also be a good place to experiment with alternative C3 network configurations because your command unit could easily hold a stack of four masters to coordinate up to nine combat units without compromising its ability to monitor the sensors.

The end result sounds like an artillery-delivered drone. An interesting idea.

It is not quite there because the sensors are immobile, but it is still very mean. }:)


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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #17 on: 24 September 2014, 21:31:17 »
I've yet to be in a game using these things, so from what Weirdo described that basically their inexpensive sensors to help friendly units spot incoming units.  Their not ment to be use as spotters, but just immobile scouts in a sense.

It should be noted that the Yinghuochong has a remote dispenser as well.

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #18 on: 24 September 2014, 22:09:58 »
Their not ment to be use as spotters, but just immobile scouts in a sense.

They can spot, they're just not as good as most manned units. Their main utility lies in being able to continue to spot, even while all your manned units are busy somewhere else.

The first time I ever saw remote sensors used effectively, it was a force consisting of a Stalker II and a pair of Yinghouchongs in a city environment. The Stalker hung back while the Yings moved forward. They dropped off several remotes, and then moved on to harassment fighting. Meanwhile, the Stalker hunkered down, and proceeded to lay down a rain of LRMs, using the remotes sensors as spotters. The fire was never lethal, but it was constant and annoying, and combined with the direct fire from the Yings, quite effective and surprisingly accurate.
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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #19 on: 25 September 2014, 10:25:45 »
I actually tend to use these more in the RP portion of a campaign.  And almost strictly in the defense of a fixed position.

Basically, I tend to seed all the likely approaches to my encampments with a good number of remote sensors.  Done properly, it gives a moderate amount of extra warning time in case the enemy tries a decapitation strike/behind the lines raid.

As far as monitoring, well...the mobile HQ isn't THAT expensive, especially when you compare the losses you'd suffer in a surprise attack.  ECM units are a concern, but not that much of one, since the mere fact of a sensor dropping off the net while in the radius of the jamming unit, will tell you something as well.

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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #20 on: 25 September 2014, 10:55:32 »
They can spot, they're just not as good as most manned units. Their main utility lies in being able to continue to spot, even while all your manned units are busy somewhere else.

Are they easy for enemy unit locate? Their suppose to be small.
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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #21 on: 25 September 2014, 10:58:15 »
So the radius for detecting hidden units is only 2 hexes. What about the spotting function? Do standard LOS rules apply where as long as the sensor has LOS it can "see" the enemy regardless of distance, or can it only "see" enemy units within 2 hexes. I.E. can a remote sensor (or remote C3 sensor) spot for indirect LRM fire on a target 5 hexes away as long as it has LOS?
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Re: Tell me about Remote Sensors
« Reply #22 on: 25 September 2014, 11:20:05 »
Are they easy for enemy unit locate? Their suppose to be small.

As easy as any other unit is to locate. The only benefit they get from their small size is a +2 to hit them, though that must still be combined with the -4 due to their immobility.

Do note: Spotting for artillery or indirect LRM fire does not reveal a hidden unit. >:D

So the radius for detecting hidden units is only 2 hexes. What about the spotting function? Do standard LOS rules apply where as long as the sensor has LOS it can "see" the enemy regardless of distance, or can it only "see" enemy units within 2 hexes. I.E. can a remote sensor (or remote C3 sensor) spot for indirect LRM fire on a target 5 hexes away as long as it has LOS?

LOS, out to 67 hexes.
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