Astartes - The Mech that Knows No Fear

[Imperium]

Code: [Select]

Astartes

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-D-D-A
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 23,282,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,794

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    2  ER PPCs
    2  Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

Overview:
"And it Shall Know No Fear."


Such was the statement when the Mech was unveiled by the Wolf Empire as a
display of absolute power and superiority. The Astartes is meant o work in
groups, in packs. Hunting like Apex predators. Rail guns and lightning, the
mere sight of a Star of such Godlike machines is enough to send most enemies
running. It is in accord with the new Philosophy of the True Clan Wolf - that
which has settled amongst its prey, forming the Apex of any assault or defense.
In equal numbers, in equal weight, the Astartes are nearly unstoppable. They
are the Wolf Empire's chosen, and their motto is simply: "It is better to die,
selflessly and valiantly, with Honor, for the Wolf Empire, than to live
selfishly just for yourself!" Only THE most selfless, honorable and just
Mechwarriors are allowed to pilot such God-Like Machines in Packs, and this is
not just a material distinction but philosophical for Clan Wolf - as it shows
that the Clan is evolving, from mere Warriors who take from others by might,
but Knights, with a Chivalric Code, who protect their Lyran charges, like
vanguard heroes in days of old.


In truth the purpose of the Astartes is not just military but political -  a
meeting of Lyran production and industry combined with Clan Wolf Technology. A
propaganda point, AND a martial proof, of the inevitable victory of the Wolf
Empire.


Capabilities:
Armor, maneuverability and firepower. Such are the hallmarks of the Astartes.
With Jump Jets uncommon to their weight class, near maxed out armor (18.5 tons
worth) and enough firepower to bring down a medium Mech with a single salvo
from a distance, the Astartes are able to face any and all threats without
fear.


Two Gauss Rifles and ER PPCs linked to a Targeting Computer allow them to
decimate foes from a distance. In Packs, this becomes even more extreme, as
pinpoint accuracy from the Clan-Tech Advanced Targeting Computer makes such
advantage even more undeniable at all speeds and ranges. 40 shots from the
titanic Rail-Guns affords them more then enough ammunition. Even Jumping at
full distance and firing all weapons at once, only 3 points of excess heat will
be incurred, meaning the Mechs can run cool almost the whole of an entire
engagement.


In all Simulations, in equal numbers, weight and cost, and often times at
disadvantage the Astartes not only win - they surpass and excel. It is thus
with such tests, simulations and Trials - that the Astartes pilots not only
learn they are likely to win, but they should have "no fear" of being defeated
at all.


Battle History:
Thus far the Astartes have only won classified engagements and simulated
battles. Their first public test is meant to be dramatic, to describe such mildly.


Deployment:
A Single of Star of Astartes has been created in the heart of the Wolf Empire, ready to
be deployed. And, even if drugs have to be used, it Shall Know No Fear.


================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   152 points                5.00
    Internal Locations: 3 LA, 3 RA, 1 RL
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             300                       9.50
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 3 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL                                   6.00
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             16(32)                    6.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 4 LT
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 296                 18.50
    CASE Locations: LA, RA                                                 0.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     31           49       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  12       
                                           L/R Torso     21           31       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  11       
                                             L/R Arm     17           31       
                                             L/R Leg     21           40       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC                                       RT        15        2         6.00
Targeting Computer                           RT        -         8         8.00
ER PPC                                       LT        15        2         6.00
Gauss Rifle                                  RA        1         6        12.00
Gauss Rifle                                  LA        1         6        12.00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             HD        -         1         1.00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             CT        -         1         1.00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             RA        -         1         1.00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LA        -         1         1.00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LL        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 38
3j         7       7       7       0      4     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA


The Wolf Empire's Chosen.

[Kitsune413]

Does it have absurd shoulderpads?

[Imperium]

Does it have absurd shoulderpads?

Heretic!

[Caedis Animus]

Well, it certainly has the ego to be an Astartes.

Gotta say, though, I'd rather take a Hellstar to the field if I was playing Blandmunchkintech. You know, the 18.5 armored Clan Assault Battlemech that throws four 15 point hits down range. That is produced by Clan Wolf.

[Sartris]

Bring me every mine within three parsecs

[Fallen_Raven]

Code: [Select]

Fire Warrior

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 28,461,333 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,137

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    2  ER PPCs
    2  ER Large Lasers
    1  Light TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   152 points                5.00
    Internal Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 1 RA
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             400                      26.50
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             28(56)                   18.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 3 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 3 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 304                 19.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     31           48       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  13       
                                           L/R Torso     21           31       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  11       
                                             L/R Arm     17           33       
                                             L/R Leg     21           42       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Light TAG                                    HD        0         1         0.50
ER PPC                                       RT        15        2         6.00
Targeting Computer                           RT        -         4         4.00
ER PPC                                       LT        15        2         6.00
ER Large Laser                               RA        12        1         4.00
ER Large Laser                               LA        12        1         4.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 1

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 31
4          6       6       6       0      4     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: LTAG, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA



[Imperium]

Well, it certainly has the ego to be an Astartes.

Gotta say, though, I'd rather take a Hellstar to the field if I was playing Blandmunchkintech. You know, the 18.5 armored Clan Assault Battlemech that throws four 15 point hits down range. That is produced by Clan Wolf.

Hellstar may be more ammo efficient, but it lacks a Targeting Computer. For me the difference is substantial. - 1 accuracy, can make the difference between a 25% chance to hit and a 50%.

[Caedis Animus]

Hellstar may be more ammo efficient, but it lacks a Targeting Computer. For me the difference is substantial. - 1 accuracy, can make the difference between a 25% chance to hit and a 50%.

Hellstars are faster on the ground, actually, which is the main reason why I'd take one. With the secondary reason being no exploding guns.

That, and this is an entirely superfluous role in the Clan Wolf armament, and lacks any real flavor. That's the real sin to me, and it's the same reason why I hate actually using any variant of Hellstar.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Hellstar may be more ammo efficient, but it lacks a Targeting Computer. For me the difference is substantial. - 1 accuracy, can make the difference between a 25% chance to hit and a 50%.

There's not nearly that big a swing in +/-1, going from 9 to 8 is 27% vs 41%. You get better numbers by closing the range.
And everyone makes something like this when they start customizing stuff.

[ANS Kamas P81]

And, like the Hellstar, it doesn't have secondary or antipersonnel weapons to deal with anything that isn't another giant mech.  Even a few rifle platoons can be a threat simply from the inability to kill them in any rapid measure or ability to evade them, let alone more advanced infantry types.

[Liam's Ghost]

Even a few rifle platoons can be a threat simply from the inability to kill them in any rapid measure or ability to evade them.

I must object specifically to that, as rifle platoons have a range of 3 and a move of 1 to 3, and the giant mech has long range beam weapons and a movement capacity greater than 3.

No need for senseless hyperbole.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I must object specifically to that, as rifle platoons have a range of 3 and a move of 1 to 3, and the giant mech has long range beam weapons and a movement capacity greater than 3.

No need for senseless hyperbole.

Not nearly so senseless.  They move as fast as the Astartes does, and four big guns means you're killing at most 8 troopers at a time with constant alpha strikes.  That will take a few turns of all-hits to kill a single platoon, and "a few" platoons can be a threat with the amount of critseeking they put out while you're trying to kill it.  It's the same problem the Hellstar has (albeit, the Hellstar's a touch faster) of an inability to deal with anything that *isn't* a heavily armored 'Mech target.

[Sartris]

Good thing the commander isn’t dumb enough to bid just a hellatar. a point of AP gauss elementals should be sufficient for a body guard against the squishy targets

[Liam's Ghost]

Not nearly so senseless.  They move as fast as the Astartes does, and four big guns means you're killing at most 8 troopers at a time with constant alpha strikes.  That will take a few turns of all-hits to kill a single platoon, and "a few" platoons can be a threat with the amount of critseeking they put out while you're trying to kill it.  It's the same problem the Hellstar has (albeit, the Hellstar's a touch faster) of an inability to deal with anything that *isn't* a heavily armored 'Mech target.

Allow me to rephrase. They MAY (depending on type) move as fast as the astartes does when he's walking, and four big guns means you're killing at most a quarter of a platoon at a time with the constant strikes that the mech can maintain without problem, assuming the infantry get to stay in cover*.

*Which is a massive assumption, since their ability to attack at all is dependent on the mech getting close enough for them to attack.  Or alternately, them getting close enough to attack the mech. Which involves them leaving their position to get into reach. If they have to leave cover... say... because the mech just happens to position himself even four hexes away from the nearest trees, then each volley is killing over half the platoon, not just a quarter.

Then, each platoon just has to put up all that critseeking (the equivalent of two srm 4s per platoon, except with a long range of 3 hexes) to overcome nearly 300 points of armor, or roll the lucky floating critical hit that will somehow disable the mech.

From a purely statistical standpoint, the notion of a "few" rifle platoons engaging this mech and winning is laughable. Unless of course, you're using the word "few" to describe a number that nobody would use the word "few" for, or alternately assuming that the mech will simply walk up to the infantry units and put his mech into park, and even then, it's a stretch.

[Imperium]

Okay despite the rhetoric and hyperbole, imagine if you were the commander of an Anti-Astartes task force. Your mission is simple - to defeat a Cluster. I will use extra, extra low counts and will say the Cluster is 60 Astartes. My challenge, is, with as few resources possible besides Orbital Bombardment, Endless Aerispace, and WMDs, how would YOU beat this? I just want to see what you got. (Basically anything but super-exploit. )

Cause face Asartes 1 vs 1 is one thing, but facing a Star, Binary, Trinary or Cluster, HUNDREDS of Mech sized Gauss Rifles and ER PPCs every ten seconds sounds very different Especially when a Clan-Tech, advanced Targeting Computer is applied to every single shot.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Well, you've got enough heat sinks to move and fire, but 60 of these things...I'll say a mixed reinforced regiment against it.  Plasma Rifles, infernos, for starters.  LRM machines with mines, since your movement's pretty slow it's going to be hard to get around or through those fields.  Without hardened armor, I'll go for maximum critseeking and golden BBs, plus bring a very large amount of infantry to the field.  See above; you can pick away at them a few troopers at a time, but then you're ignoring the mechs shooting at you - or else you're shooting the mechs and letting the critseekers get close.  Skip BA, they're REALLY screwed by your weapons profile - they take damage like regular machines, and there's a reason I call gauss rifles against BA 'Elemental Bowling.'  Onboard Arrow IV if I can get it, mostly for laughs, if not then a lot of missile launchers for smoke rounds and fires.

You can't deal with excess heat, and getting hit by PRs and infernos is going to remove one of your ERPPCs from the table - though to be fair, there's very few mechs that DON'T have heat problems.  Not really a critique there, but heat weapons are indeed a weakness, especially when you're losing 25% of your firepower to keep cool.

At 3/5/3, you've got decent maneuverability for a monster brick, but it's still slow - if I can get you in tight terrain, or simply deny access to hexes by mines and choking your cluster's movement, then I can force them into kill zones.  Drop a dozen Archers, perhaps, denying movement through one area of the map, for example - you don't have anything faster to get over mines and become a movement threat.

Dictating range is a big thing - since all your force moves at the same speed, and is one of the lowest speeds in the game, a regiment of 4/6/4 or faster (and they get damn fast in the DA) is going to consistently provide targets that can keep at long range and keep up movement modifiers.  Meanwhile the best you can put out is a +2 TMM for incoming fire, which means a lot is going to hit.

Critseeking is important, especially on those gauss rifles.  Good job putting them in the arms - it means crits won't risk gutting torso locations and taking half your firepower.  That said, they're still explosive, and you're not running Ferro-Lamellor armor.  LBX, SRM barrages, and aforementioned infantry.  If we're gonna get crazy with theoretical units, there's some absolutely bat-**** infantry units you can make under the rules that make regular rifle infantry look like hippie protestors with broke-down VWs.  And with the way infantry does damage, and can reach out to range 15 with certain weapon types, foot infantry can be dangerous.  Without anything to deal with meatbag infantry (see prior 'bowling' comment for battle armor) it's gonna take a while to grind them down using those big guns...and that means you're not using them on mechs.

Side note on those GRs - a crit on those is still an ammo explosion, which kicks two points to your pilot's head (or, if you've got autoeject going, punches out your pilot.)  If I can crit both the GRs at some point you've got pilots that are risking sleeping off four pilot hits, and trying to wake up from it.  That, plus engine crits for blowing your heat out of the water (all those delicious XLFE slots) limits your firepower or movement.

Artillery, again, kind of gets into the munchkinny bit, but it's one of those things that's still boardgame acceptable.  Arrow IV, preferably, because there's a LOT of it in the game, and targeting hexes that I know you're gonna have to go through (see minefields, smoke) means splash damage out the wazoo.  My intent is to deny access to some of the battlefield, and turn the rest into a killbox where you have to maneuver slowly to.

Now, those guns you have, on my 'Mechs, are going to be rough.  I haven't bothered to do BV calculations, but 1/36 hits is going to be a headcap; with 180 of them firing (assuming I'm doing my job, and you're only using one ERPPC and two GRs because of heat)...well, if all 180 hit (they won't) that's five of my machines down every turn.  Fortunately, at 3800BV each for your units, 228,000 BV of inner sphere mechs and infantry is going to last a while even at 5 deaths per turn.

Offhand, I'd also throw the ECM game in - you've got a targeting computer, which is good, but ECM bubbles and ghost targets will make hash of your gunfire, and you have no way to counter it with ECCM of your own.    Beyond that, maybe some fast movers to tie up your shooters, provide targets with very high TMMs which maneuver to either get backshots on you or force you to turn your backs to my main gunline, which is still going to be heavily built around some holepunching and a truckload of critseeking, trying to grind down the guns you've got.

Battletech's really a game of combined arms; it's a fine example of the difference between a problem and a dilemma.  A problem is some very large, powerful mechs with very big guns - a dilemma is a mixed force that can control a battlefield, deny terrain, block LOS with smoke, and be able to make big holes in armor as well as exploit them for crits.  If you want a WWII comparison, the Astartes is the Yamato or the Maus tank...but ask history how those got taken down.  It'd make a good centerpiece machine, but it's not a be-all end-all of combat, and has some serious weaknesses that need allies to supplement it.  Just like the Hellstar, for that matter, or any other all-giant-gun Mech.  Looking at you, Gausszilla...

[Sartris]

no ecm also means c3 would be unfettered. they put the rule back in that you don't have to have LOS to do the company spotting so you can hide effectively in woods or behind hills and still draw excellent short range numbers for your units.

[Liam's Ghost]

Okay despite the rhetoric and hyperbole, imagine if you were the commander of an Anti-Astartes task force. Your mission is simple - to defeat a Cluster. I will use extra, extra low counts and will say the Cluster is 60 Astartes. My challenge, is, with as few resources possible besides Orbital Bombardment, Endless Aerispace, and WMDs, how would YOU beat this? I just want to see what you got. (Basically anything but super-exploit. )

Cause face Asartes 1 vs 1 is one thing, but facing a Star, Binary, Trinary or Cluster, HUNDREDS of Mech sized Gauss Rifles and ER PPCs every ten seconds sounds very different Especially when a Clan-Tech, advanced Targeting Computer is applied to every single shot.

Am I to defeat them in a single engagement, or a prolonged campaign? Is this simply a question of destroying them in the field, or do I get to take their lines of supply into account?

Also, what constitutes endless aerospace? If I am to face four trinaries of hundred ton mechs, would four trinaries of Kirghiz omnifighters be considered endless?

I'm not entirely clear what you would consider cheap.

In a straight up engagement, my first thought would be three battalions of Kelswa tanks, a company of Paladin defense vehicles, and two companies good ole warrior H-7 gunships.

[Daryk]

ANS Kamas P81 gives a very detailed answer, but I can break it down much more simply: the easy answer to any direct fire threat is "smoke and area of effect weapons".  You don't have to be able to see a hex to target it.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Equivalent BV of Savannah Masters is ~1060.

[Sartris]

Equivalent BV of Savannah Masters is ~1060.

The original Zerg rush

ANS Kamas P81 gives a very detailed answer, but I can break it down much more simply: the easy answer to any direct fire threat is "smoke and area of effect weapons".  You don't have to be able to see a hex to target it.

don’t forget the FASCAM vibrobombs. A peril of a mono weight force is that your opponents don’t have to worry about setting the mines for too low or high a weight

[Imperium]

Wow, so many responses. It's a lot to think over. Thank you all. = )

[Caedis Animus]

After ten minutes of trying to create a six-plus company counterattack force (Including an entire LRM Assault Mech company consisting of Salamanders, Thunder Stallions, and Kraken 3s), I realized I could just bring 200+ units of Arrow IV Regulators mixed in with Stealth 2D2s and just bombard. Constantly. All the time. Or just spam TAG infantry and Thunder Mines instead of Stealth 2D2s and wait for a Pocket Warship to come over, or for the Astartes Commander to request Hegira after the 30th Astartes loses its legs.

Regardless, the posted 'what-if' of 60+ Astartes tears suspension of disbelief a new one. 60 assault mechs (Specifically, Devastator wannabes), appearing out of nowhere? Yeah, that's a level of fiat that requires unstoppable hordes of Regulators and Saladins and Savannah Masters to fix.

[Hellraiser]

I'll be nice & balance by Tonnage here instead of BV or Tech Level or C-Bills.  (Which would be far worse for you.)

I shall field 180 Yellow Jacket-Arrows + 60 Sprints to defeat your cluster.

Each of your Mechs shall feel the furry of 30 Arrow Rounds before I retreat having stayed out of range of your guns.

[Imperium]

Okay, so far I read Superior-Numbers. In one case, like 180+60 numbers to like X. Or like 1000.

But my question to that is, where do you get the Jump Ships and Drop Ships? In Battletech Mechs exist for a reason - and that reason is space travel is limited. It is awesome if you have a billion soldiers and a hundred million tanks at home - but if you have no way to transport them it may not matter on the Inter-Stellar Scale.

So what I am hearing right now is "We can super-outnumber you." But like - a Jump Ship can carry 3-5 Drop Ships, and at most with Quirks, that is 2 times vehicles per space. Unless the economy is made so Mechs should not even exist, it does not work. The only way Mechs still exist in Battletech and cost matters, is if Dropship and Jumpship usage constitutes a costly commodity. And if so, that is when the Assault Mech shines - because an Assault Mech and a Light Mech occupy the same space on a Dropship.

If you could JUST defeat a Mech with 100 or 1000 Savannah Masters, there would be no reason for Mechs to exist at all really, let alone so predominately in Battletech. The fact that there is, means there are limits, and the most logical I can see for that is Interstellar Travel. You cannot take 100,000 Savannah Master tanks to other planets except in like 10-100 years.

Also Raw Resources and Manpower can come into FASA-nomics.

[Daryk]

Smoke and indirect fire don't require superior numbers to win.  Just deep ammo bins.

[Imperium]

Smoke and indirect fire don't require superior numbers to win.  Just deep ammo bins.

Even then, say a Cluster of 60. So x 2 Clan ER PPCs = 120. Gauss Rifles = 120. Both = 240. Every ten seconds 120-240 shots, aided by Clan Targeting Computer. That is a DELUGE of firepower. I am not saying this just to be smart. What if you were an Inner Sphere Commander, and Clans, for whatever reason - decided to act smart - and they made this?

[Daryk]

Smoke blocks LOS, so there would be exactly zero incoming PPCs and Gauss Rifles.

[Imperium]

Smoke blocks LOS, so there would be exactly zero incoming PPCs and Gauss Rifles.

Okay. And smoke disappears if you wait like 1 minute.

[Daryk]

Hence the need for "deep ammo bins".  And in that one minute, expect six rounds of indirect fire.  Sure, it only comes in 5 point groups, but you can get quite a few of them.

[Imperium]

Hence the need for "deep ammo bins".  And in that one minute, expect six rounds of indirect fire.  Sure, it only comes in 5 point groups, but you can get quite a few of them.

Okay but that works both ways. If you are using long-range smoke, my guys can back up. So to hit me from smoke you have to get in my range, and then I can unload with a good amount of ammo, TC and heat sinks. This is not an easy to beat design. That is my main problem with your objection - you are acting like you can beat even a Cluster of this easy.

[Daryk]

The Helepolis, HEP-4H has two LRM-5s and a Sniper Artillery piece.  Everything needed in one canon package.  Let me design it from the ground up to be even faster and use a Thumper instead, and I can probably cram it into a medium 'mech frame with more than enough ammo.

[Liam's Ghost]

Okay, so far I read Superior-Numbers. In one case, like 180+60 numbers to like X. Or like 1000.

But my question to that is, where do you get the Jump Ships and Drop Ships? In Battletech Mechs exist for a reason - and that reason is space travel is limited. It is awesome if you have a billion soldiers and a hundred million tanks at home - but if you have no way to transport them it may not matter on the Inter-Stellar Scale.

So what I am hearing right now is "We can super-outnumber you." But like - a Jump Ship can carry 3-5 Drop Ships, and at most with Quirks, that is 2 times vehicles per space. Unless the economy is made so Mechs should not even exist, it does not work. The only way Mechs still exist in Battletech and cost matters, is if Dropship and Jumpship usage constitutes a costly commodity. And if so, that is when the Assault Mech shines - because an Assault Mech and a Light Mech occupy the same space on a Dropship.

If you could JUST defeat a Mech with 100 or 1000 Savannah Masters, there would be no reason for Mechs to exist at all really, let alone so predominately in Battletech. The fact that there is, means there are limits, and the most logical I can see for that is Interstellar Travel. You cannot take 100,000 Savannah Master tanks to other planets except in like 10-100 years.

Also Raw Resources and Manpower can come into FASA-nomics.

I mean... sure... if you're talking about fighting sixty top tier max weight clan mechs, superior numbers are going to be a common response. Superior numbers are always a common response. I'm not sure what you're expecting to hear.

And I don't know if you get all the nuances of the logistics involved. Savannah Masters weigh five tons a piece and can be packed as cargo. Moving a thousand of them from planet to planet is pretty much trivial (in terms of total tonnage, less demanding than your cluster), and the manpower to operate them isn't that far removed from an infantry regiment.

Even most other armor units loaded in bays take up less space on a dropship than any battlemech. If you want to play that card, then I've got three fifty ton vehicles to engage every one of your mechs.

I mean, if you want someone to acknowledge that a hundred ton clan battlemech is a tough opponent, then fine, acknowledged.

[Imperium]

So a Galaxy of Dire Wolves are gonna be dropped. Don't worry, we can make 10,000 Savanna Masters....

Battle for Luthien "Don't worry Coordinator, we can just make 20,000 Savanna Masters and then ship 10,000 to each planet we attack and defend as cargo." If it was so easy, why even have Mechs or anything besides Savanna Masters at all?

[Daryk]

Just verified in SSW... a 5/8/5 'mech can indeed carry a Thumper, 2 LRM-5s and two tons of ammo for each (more if you use less than max armor, or decide to go without the Medium Laser):

Code: [Select]

Fast Artillery 'Mech

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/D-F-E-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 9,753,582 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,095

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Medium Laser
    2  LRM-5s
    1  Thumper
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                    91 points                3.00
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 5 RT, 7 RA
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             275                       8.00
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 5 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL                                   2.50
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             10(20)                    0.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 184                 11.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           28       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     13           19       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     9            18       
                                             L/R Leg     13           26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 LRM-5s                                     RT        4         2         4.00
Thumper                                      LT/LA     6         7/8      15.00
Medium Laser                                 RA        3         1         1.00
@LRM-5 (Smoke) (48)                          RT        -         2         2.00
@Thumper (40)                                LT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 11
5j         3       2       1       0      2     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: ARTT, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1

[Imperium]

Are you talking about a battalion of Mechs carrying Thumpers? = /

[Daryk]

Facing a full cluster of those things?  I'd be more comfortable with two, but I think one might just do the job as long as I have rolling map boards.

[Imperium]

Facing a full cluster of those things?  I'd be more comfortable with two, but I think one might just do the job as long as I have rolling map boards.

There are so many problems to that strategy, like okay think - it renders every assault and heavy mech ever obsolete.

[Daryk]

And just like Assault 'Mechs, they have their counters too.  That's the nature of the game... it's a lot like rock-paper-scissors.  And it's also what drives combined arms as a preferred approach in general.

[Liam's Ghost]

So a Galaxy of Dire Wolves are gonna be dropped. Don't worry, we can make 10,000 Savanna Masters....

What's your point? One is at least as ridiculous as the other. People don't actually drop galaxies of direwolves on other people in this universe, either.

It seems disingenuous to suggest other people are being cheesy when what you're leading with is sixty hundred ton clan tech mechs.

[Imperium]

All I would have to do is add 1 or 2 jump jets or drop pods and land my Mechs right on you. Then it is like a cheap hoe before some dude with a LOT of money.

But I mean there is the Hellstar, how different is this then the Hellstar? And in one of the latest Dark Age Books, they said the Tomohawk 2 came in a Binary Once to beat the Lyran Ring of Steel on the Lyran Capital World. So my idea is not as far off as the other one.

[Liam's Ghost]

Battle for Luthien "Don't worry Coordinator, we can just make 20,000 Savanna Masters and then ship 10,000 to each planet we attack and defend as cargo." If it was so easy, why even have Mechs or anything besides Savanna Masters at all?

I feel like I'm being mocked. All I said was that it wasn't that hard to ship a thousand savannah masters somewhere (it's literally one dropship load).

Frankly, if the other side is going to insist on having all direwolves all the time, it seems like a reasonable response. Cheese leads to cheese. I tried to offer a more mundane force, I tried to talk about other options, but you keep going on about the Savannah Masters. I feel like I should bury you in Savannah Masters.

Savannah Masters for days!

[Daryk]

The drop right in tactic is why I'd prefer two battalions.  At 5/8/5, I guarantee I can pop enough smoke and run fast enough with enough 'mechs to still win in the end.  And that assumes I don't shoot any out of the sky before they land with flak (which artillery is pretty good at).

[Imperium]

I feel like I'm being mocked. All I said was that it wasn't that hard to ship a thousand savannah masters somewhere (it's literally one dropship load).

Frankly, if the other side is going to insist on having all direwolves all the time, it seems like a reasonable response. Cheese leads to cheese. I tried to offer a more mundane force, I tried to talk about other options, but you keep going on about the Savannah Masters. I feel like I should bury you in Savannah Masters.

Savannah Masters for days!

My point is, according to your logic it should work every time. It does not. The limit is Interstellar Travel. Cargo does not bypass this. That is why, it still makes sense to take an Assault Regiment, and land 3 days out of the enemy's zone. Cause Cargo made in 2-3 days carried in 10,000 plus Savanna Masters does not make sense.

You have to have 1000 vehicle crew for that.

You have to have a LOT of time to put that together.

None of which is practical in FASAnomics. 

[Imperium]

The drop right in tactic is why I'd prefer two battalions.  At 5/8/5, I guarantee I can pop enough smoke and run fast enough with enough 'mechs to still win in the end.  And that assumes I don't shoot any out of the sky before they land with flak (which artillery is pretty good at).

Drop right to two locations attack. BTW I like how I am initiating the whole time and you are responding.

[Daryk]

Have you looked at the rules for dropping on to a map (Strat Ops, pages 22-23)?

[Imperium]

Have you looked at the rules for dropping on to a map (Strat Ops, pages 22-23)?

No man, I don't have the book. Can you quote it? I am using older books.

[Daryk]

I won't quote the whole two pages, but the most relevant part is this:

A dropping unit may not move or make attacks in the turn that it landed; dropping units may move and attack normally on the following turn. Attacks made against such units apply a +3 modifier for target movement.

[Imperium]

Anyways, so what you are saying is a Mech that can beat any Assault Battalion or Cluster or Battalion in the game, no matter what, or even a heavy medium, light/whatever not using Artillery en masse can beat mine. I guess that is true. But I take it then, as an honor, my Mechs were the sacrifice that lead to this Revolution in Strategy. = )

Like according to you, proposed counter would waste -

- A Group of Atlas

- A Group of Dire Wolves

- Mad Cat 2s, King Crabs, Stalkers, Maulers, Executioners, Masakaris.

Basically it would beat all of the above, just as easily if not more easily then mine. So thank you.

[Liam's Ghost]

My point is, according to your logic it should work every time. It does not. The limit is Interstellar Travel. Cargo does not bypass this. That is why, it still makes sense to take an Assault Regiment, and land 3 days out of the enemy's zone. Cause Cargo made in 2-3 days carried in 10,000 plus Savanna Masters does not make sense.

You have to have 1000 vehicle crew for that.

You have to have a LOT of time to put that together.

None of which is practical in FASAnomics.

Setting aside the fact that you clearly don't understand how carrying a vehicle as cargo actually works... Or really understand what FASAnomics is actually referencing...

The reason it doesn't work has nothing to do with logistics. It has to do with good taste. Nobody fields thousands of savannah masters for the exact same reason nobody fields armies of custom hundred ton battlemechs. It's cheesy, tasteless, and boring.

I tried to play along, I put together an armored regiment that I think I would have fun fighting your hypothetical cluster with. I suggested an alternative built around medium combat vehicles. You're apparently only interested in obsessing about hundreds of thousands of savannah masters.

You built a big, scary clan mech, but I'm sorry, it's nothing new or special, and it's not suddenly magically less silly to have dozens of those in one spot than any other answer you've gotten.

[Imperium]

Setting aside the fact that you clearly don't understand how carrying a vehicle as cargo actually works... Or really understand what FASAnomics is actually referencing...

The reason it doesn't work has nothing to do with logistics. It has to do with good taste. Nobody fields thousands of savannah masters for the exact same reason nobody fields armies of custom hundred ton battlemechs. It's cheesy, tasteless, and boring.

I tried to play along, I put together an armored regiment that I think I would have fun fighting your hypothetical cluster with. I suggested an alternative built around medium combat vehicles. You're apparently only interested in obsessing about hundreds of thousands of savannah masters.

You built a big, scary clan mech, but I'm sorry, it's nothing new or special, and it's not suddenly magically less silly to have dozens of those in one spot than any other answer you've gotten.

Okay so barring I said no magical things, the problem is that the above strategy can conceivably be used to defeat ANY and ALL Mech invasions in the Battletech universe. There are some reasons I think that shouldn't work, the best being some kind of FASAnomics like Jumpship rarity and how many techs it really takes to re-assemble a vehicle from raw parts.

[Daryk]

More specifically, anything slower than 5/8/5.  The way to counter my force is with tough 'mechs that are faster (like Wraiths).  Your 100-ton cluster would probably kill a battalion of Wraiths without breaking a sweat.  Like I said, it's like rock-paper-scissors, just with quite a few more options.  Personally, I think that's one of the beauties of the system.

[Imperium]

More specifically, anything slower than 5/8/5.  The way to counter my force is with tough 'mechs that are faster (like Wraiths).  Your 100-ton cluster would probably kill a battalion of Wraiths without breaking a sweat.  Like I said, it's like rock-paper-scissors, just with quite a few more options.  Personally, I think that's one of the beauties of the system.

I actually don't know if the design system for Battletech is really balanced.

[Daryk]

Parts of it are, parts of it aren't.  Stick with it long enough, and you'll see.  A lot of the balancing has to come down to mutual agreement between players.  Like a lot of games, really.

[Liam's Ghost]

Okay so barring I said no magical things, the problem is that the above strategy can conceivably be used to defeat ANY and ALL Mech invasions in the Battletech universe. There are some reasons I think that shouldn't work, the best being some kind of FASAnomics like Jumpship rarity and how many techs it really takes to re-assemble a vehicle from raw parts.

You don't have to re-assemble anything from raw parts. You can just carry the whole vehicle assembled as cargo (a cargo bay can carry anything light enough to fit inside it intact). It takes a bit longer to unload than a proper bay (though it's tonnage based, so not much longer at all for such a small vehicle) and you can't conduct repairs in flight and you need to carry the crew separately.

It's actually a pretty common way to carry vehicles. It a lot of cases, it's simply easier to transport large numbers of tanks this way.

Honestly, the only reason the universe isn't dominated by massive numbers of tanks instead of small numbers of mechs is mostly mutual consent among the players not to look at it too hard.  :D

[Caedis Animus]

Frankly, if the other side is going to insist on having all direwolves all the time, it seems like a reasonable response. Cheese leads to cheese. I tried to offer a more mundane force, I tried to talk about other options, but you keep going on about the Savannah Masters. I feel like I should bury you in Savannah Masters.

^This right here is why I stopped taking any serious approach to fighting this 60 Astartes force. I'm not saying that that isn't a pit to fight for the ages, but it's simply not worth the time to come up with a solid force that doesn't do the same thing with greater numbers of cheaper units.

Hell, my original Company alone (And I was going to write up 7 more, mind you, because 60 Astartes is about enough BV for that) consisted of four Kraken 3s, four Salamanders, and four Thunder Stallions. And that was just the fire support mech company. And in the end, I'd be far happier to just drop ordnance on them from a pocket warship or very far  and decently guarded artillery-in fact, it'd probably be cheaper in the long-term, and all-in-all the most reasonable response. And I, for the life of me, don't understand OP's insistence that he didn't make the most boring unit ever or his belief that fighting a cheese cluster with harder and better cheese is somehow bad.

In the end, all I want to do is give that little Astartes force some Nuclear learning experience.

Okay but that works both ways. If you are using long-range smoke, my guys can back up. So to hit me from smoke you have to get in my range, and then I can unload with a good amount of ammo, TC and heat sinks. This is not an easy to beat design. That is my main problem with your objection - you are acting like you can beat even a Cluster of this easy.

ESPECIALLY this. This attitude, in and of itself, will not earn you many friends, and I can win easily by just walking away from the table.

[(SMD)MadCow]

This is not an easy to beat design. That is my main problem with your objection - you are acting like you can beat even a Cluster of this easy.

But it is easy to win using unconventional tactics. It's a great clan duelist style mech for sure, but if the task is to  defeat a large number of them, then you cant play against its strength and expect to win every outcome. The biggest problem you have is insisting on 60 of these at a time, which will make your movements predictable since they're slow. You will be outmaneuvered.
Don't forget your BV is astronomical and it's a custom unit, so anything can be coming your way; no one has mentioned stealth suit infantry or air dropped battle armor yet. Custom problems beget custom solutions.
You remind me of another edgelord from a few years ago who would post up 100 ton streak carriers and pompously announce they were undefeatable. Don't be that guy.

[Greatclub]

There's not nearly that big a swing in +/-1, going from 9 to 8 is 27% vs 41%. You get better numbers by closing the range.
And everyone makes something like this when they start customizing stuff.

From 6 to 7 is around a 17% change. The tarcomp's 14% swing between 9 and 8 is still enough to justify it's existence, and that's my cutoff for heat-causing and ammo-limited shots.

[(SMD)MadCow]

From 6 to 7 is around a 17% change. The tarcomp's 14% swing between 9 and 8 is still enough to justify it's existence, and that's my cutoff for heat-causing and ammo-limited shots.

He was claiming a 25% swing for a +/-1, which is just not the case.

[Sabelkatten]

You can't go from 25% to 50%, but dropping from 11 to 10 is a doubling of your hit chance (8% to 16%).

[Feign]

Don't be that guy.

Did he really leave?  I've been gone myself for a few years, interesting to see that nothing has changed all that much.
Probably my best tip for Imperium: Now that you've built a PPC/GL brick assault, base your next few customs on how you would beat what you've just created.  Make it your goal to best counter the last best unit you've made.  Eventually, the paper/rock/scissors nature of the game becomes a little more apparent, and you can start building things that work as teams to counter teams of your previous customs.
With the Astartes, you've passed the first step of mech design.  Don't get discouraged, but also don't get cocky.

[Greatclub]

My first thought on seeing this thing was "Dasher H bait"

It might kill a few of the little guys, but unless you're playing on an empty, featureless plain, I guarantee that equal BPV in D-H will fry this brick.

Then you move to the savannah master swarm, bane of groups everywhere, and some of the better helos. Homing arrows with a bunch of cheap spotters; power armor or infantry will work just fine and are a pain to kill, or masses of spirit helos if you want to be an ass.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Did he really leave?  I've been gone myself for a few years, interesting to see that nothing has changed all that much.

How do you mean?

[Feign]

How do you mean?

New folks are still posting 100T Clan ERPPC/GR turrets and getting pretty much all the same replies they were getting for the past decade.
Also nobody knows quite how Ghost Targets work in Tac Ops. :D Just like old times.

[maxcarrion]

Imperium, I feel you're being very disingenuous in your engagement of this discussion, either intentionally trolling or simply a refusal to accept any point of view as valid except your own.

60 clan tech assault mechs armed entirely with erppc and gr can seem intimidating and are indeed excellent engaging direct fire armour units at medium to long range however when someone tells you how they would beat them introducing new elements into consideration (such as production capacity or drop ship space or a personal concept of what is and isn't realistic) is foolishly dismissive throwing away valid points just so that you cannot be proved wrong.

Battletech is far more complex then "60 of these mechs can defeat all other realistic forces" and the only way to "win" this sort of arguement is to then redefine realistic as eliminating anything that would beat this force.

For its weight and manpower in a direct fire engagement between 10 and 20 hex range firing at other mechs this force is borderline peerless

Every step you take from that paradigm this force becomes weaker and weaker. 

A lack of speed massively restricts the force both strategically and tactically
Enormously expensive, anything balanced on C-bills would annihilate this force
A focus on long reach weapons would leave this force over matched by close range units when permitted to get close
The combination of low speed and no artillery allows mobile artillery to take this force apart with complete impunity
The homogenous firepower would be extremely inefficient against certain units such as light BA, infantry, savannahs masters etc. Who have less to fear from 4 15point guns then they would from say 8 7point guns


As to taking out the force, I bid 1 doberman (a custom 5t submersible with an lrt 5) of course my unit will only engage when mechs are submerged but I think it illustrates the point that context matters

[Major Headcase]

Pretty sure he's just trolling.  ;)