Astartes - The Mech that Knows No Fear

[Imperium]

Hence the need for "deep ammo bins".  And in that one minute, expect six rounds of indirect fire.  Sure, it only comes in 5 point groups, but you can get quite a few of them.

Okay but that works both ways. If you are using long-range smoke, my guys can back up. So to hit me from smoke you have to get in my range, and then I can unload with a good amount of ammo, TC and heat sinks. This is not an easy to beat design. That is my main problem with your objection - you are acting like you can beat even a Cluster of this easy.

[Daryk]

The Helepolis, HEP-4H has two LRM-5s and a Sniper Artillery piece.  Everything needed in one canon package.  Let me design it from the ground up to be even faster and use a Thumper instead, and I can probably cram it into a medium 'mech frame with more than enough ammo.

[Liam's Ghost]

Okay, so far I read Superior-Numbers. In one case, like 180+60 numbers to like X. Or like 1000.

But my question to that is, where do you get the Jump Ships and Drop Ships? In Battletech Mechs exist for a reason - and that reason is space travel is limited. It is awesome if you have a billion soldiers and a hundred million tanks at home - but if you have no way to transport them it may not matter on the Inter-Stellar Scale.

So what I am hearing right now is "We can super-outnumber you." But like - a Jump Ship can carry 3-5 Drop Ships, and at most with Quirks, that is 2 times vehicles per space. Unless the economy is made so Mechs should not even exist, it does not work. The only way Mechs still exist in Battletech and cost matters, is if Dropship and Jumpship usage constitutes a costly commodity. And if so, that is when the Assault Mech shines - because an Assault Mech and a Light Mech occupy the same space on a Dropship.

If you could JUST defeat a Mech with 100 or 1000 Savannah Masters, there would be no reason for Mechs to exist at all really, let alone so predominately in Battletech. The fact that there is, means there are limits, and the most logical I can see for that is Interstellar Travel. You cannot take 100,000 Savannah Master tanks to other planets except in like 10-100 years.

Also Raw Resources and Manpower can come into FASA-nomics.

I mean... sure... if you're talking about fighting sixty top tier max weight clan mechs, superior numbers are going to be a common response. Superior numbers are always a common response. I'm not sure what you're expecting to hear.

And I don't know if you get all the nuances of the logistics involved. Savannah Masters weigh five tons a piece and can be packed as cargo. Moving a thousand of them from planet to planet is pretty much trivial (in terms of total tonnage, less demanding than your cluster), and the manpower to operate them isn't that far removed from an infantry regiment.

Even most other armor units loaded in bays take up less space on a dropship than any battlemech. If you want to play that card, then I've got three fifty ton vehicles to engage every one of your mechs.

I mean, if you want someone to acknowledge that a hundred ton clan battlemech is a tough opponent, then fine, acknowledged.

[Imperium]

So a Galaxy of Dire Wolves are gonna be dropped. Don't worry, we can make 10,000 Savanna Masters....

Battle for Luthien "Don't worry Coordinator, we can just make 20,000 Savanna Masters and then ship 10,000 to each planet we attack and defend as cargo." If it was so easy, why even have Mechs or anything besides Savanna Masters at all?

[Daryk]

Just verified in SSW... a 5/8/5 'mech can indeed carry a Thumper, 2 LRM-5s and two tons of ammo for each (more if you use less than max armor, or decide to go without the Medium Laser):

Code: [Select]

Fast Artillery 'Mech

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/D-F-E-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 9,753,582 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,095

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Medium Laser
    2  LRM-5s
    1  Thumper
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                    91 points                3.00
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 5 RT, 7 RA
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             275                       8.00
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 5 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL                                   2.50
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             10(20)                    0.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 184                 11.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           28       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     13           19       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     9            18       
                                             L/R Leg     13           26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 LRM-5s                                     RT        4         2         4.00
Thumper                                      LT/LA     6         7/8      15.00
Medium Laser                                 RA        3         1         1.00
@LRM-5 (Smoke) (48)                          RT        -         2         2.00
@Thumper (40)                                LT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 11
5j         3       2       1       0      2     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: ARTT, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1

[Imperium]

Are you talking about a battalion of Mechs carrying Thumpers? = /

[Daryk]

Facing a full cluster of those things?  I'd be more comfortable with two, but I think one might just do the job as long as I have rolling map boards.

[Imperium]

Facing a full cluster of those things?  I'd be more comfortable with two, but I think one might just do the job as long as I have rolling map boards.

There are so many problems to that strategy, like okay think - it renders every assault and heavy mech ever obsolete.

[Daryk]

And just like Assault 'Mechs, they have their counters too.  That's the nature of the game... it's a lot like rock-paper-scissors.  And it's also what drives combined arms as a preferred approach in general.

[Liam's Ghost]

So a Galaxy of Dire Wolves are gonna be dropped. Don't worry, we can make 10,000 Savanna Masters....

What's your point? One is at least as ridiculous as the other. People don't actually drop galaxies of direwolves on other people in this universe, either.

It seems disingenuous to suggest other people are being cheesy when what you're leading with is sixty hundred ton clan tech mechs.

[Imperium]

All I would have to do is add 1 or 2 jump jets or drop pods and land my Mechs right on you. Then it is like a cheap hoe before some dude with a LOT of money.

But I mean there is the Hellstar, how different is this then the Hellstar? And in one of the latest Dark Age Books, they said the Tomohawk 2 came in a Binary Once to beat the Lyran Ring of Steel on the Lyran Capital World. So my idea is not as far off as the other one.

[Liam's Ghost]

Battle for Luthien "Don't worry Coordinator, we can just make 20,000 Savanna Masters and then ship 10,000 to each planet we attack and defend as cargo." If it was so easy, why even have Mechs or anything besides Savanna Masters at all?

I feel like I'm being mocked. All I said was that it wasn't that hard to ship a thousand savannah masters somewhere (it's literally one dropship load).

Frankly, if the other side is going to insist on having all direwolves all the time, it seems like a reasonable response. Cheese leads to cheese. I tried to offer a more mundane force, I tried to talk about other options, but you keep going on about the Savannah Masters. I feel like I should bury you in Savannah Masters.

Savannah Masters for days!

[Daryk]

The drop right in tactic is why I'd prefer two battalions.  At 5/8/5, I guarantee I can pop enough smoke and run fast enough with enough 'mechs to still win in the end.  And that assumes I don't shoot any out of the sky before they land with flak (which artillery is pretty good at).

[Imperium]

I feel like I'm being mocked. All I said was that it wasn't that hard to ship a thousand savannah masters somewhere (it's literally one dropship load).

Frankly, if the other side is going to insist on having all direwolves all the time, it seems like a reasonable response. Cheese leads to cheese. I tried to offer a more mundane force, I tried to talk about other options, but you keep going on about the Savannah Masters. I feel like I should bury you in Savannah Masters.

Savannah Masters for days!

My point is, according to your logic it should work every time. It does not. The limit is Interstellar Travel. Cargo does not bypass this. That is why, it still makes sense to take an Assault Regiment, and land 3 days out of the enemy's zone. Cause Cargo made in 2-3 days carried in 10,000 plus Savanna Masters does not make sense.

You have to have 1000 vehicle crew for that.

You have to have a LOT of time to put that together.

None of which is practical in FASAnomics. 

[Imperium]

The drop right in tactic is why I'd prefer two battalions.  At 5/8/5, I guarantee I can pop enough smoke and run fast enough with enough 'mechs to still win in the end.  And that assumes I don't shoot any out of the sky before they land with flak (which artillery is pretty good at).

Drop right to two locations attack. BTW I like how I am initiating the whole time and you are responding.

[Daryk]

Have you looked at the rules for dropping on to a map (Strat Ops, pages 22-23)?

[Imperium]

Have you looked at the rules for dropping on to a map (Strat Ops, pages 22-23)?

No man, I don't have the book. Can you quote it? I am using older books.

[Daryk]

I won't quote the whole two pages, but the most relevant part is this:

A dropping unit may not move or make attacks in the turn that it landed; dropping units may move and attack normally on the following turn. Attacks made against such units apply a +3 modifier for target movement.

[Imperium]

Anyways, so what you are saying is a Mech that can beat any Assault Battalion or Cluster or Battalion in the game, no matter what, or even a heavy medium, light/whatever not using Artillery en masse can beat mine. I guess that is true. But I take it then, as an honor, my Mechs were the sacrifice that lead to this Revolution in Strategy. = )

Like according to you, proposed counter would waste -

- A Group of Atlas

- A Group of Dire Wolves

- Mad Cat 2s, King Crabs, Stalkers, Maulers, Executioners, Masakaris.

Basically it would beat all of the above, just as easily if not more easily then mine. So thank you.

[Liam's Ghost]

My point is, according to your logic it should work every time. It does not. The limit is Interstellar Travel. Cargo does not bypass this. That is why, it still makes sense to take an Assault Regiment, and land 3 days out of the enemy's zone. Cause Cargo made in 2-3 days carried in 10,000 plus Savanna Masters does not make sense.

You have to have 1000 vehicle crew for that.

You have to have a LOT of time to put that together.

None of which is practical in FASAnomics.

Setting aside the fact that you clearly don't understand how carrying a vehicle as cargo actually works... Or really understand what FASAnomics is actually referencing...

The reason it doesn't work has nothing to do with logistics. It has to do with good taste. Nobody fields thousands of savannah masters for the exact same reason nobody fields armies of custom hundred ton battlemechs. It's cheesy, tasteless, and boring.

I tried to play along, I put together an armored regiment that I think I would have fun fighting your hypothetical cluster with. I suggested an alternative built around medium combat vehicles. You're apparently only interested in obsessing about hundreds of thousands of savannah masters.

You built a big, scary clan mech, but I'm sorry, it's nothing new or special, and it's not suddenly magically less silly to have dozens of those in one spot than any other answer you've gotten.

[Imperium]

Setting aside the fact that you clearly don't understand how carrying a vehicle as cargo actually works... Or really understand what FASAnomics is actually referencing...

The reason it doesn't work has nothing to do with logistics. It has to do with good taste. Nobody fields thousands of savannah masters for the exact same reason nobody fields armies of custom hundred ton battlemechs. It's cheesy, tasteless, and boring.

I tried to play along, I put together an armored regiment that I think I would have fun fighting your hypothetical cluster with. I suggested an alternative built around medium combat vehicles. You're apparently only interested in obsessing about hundreds of thousands of savannah masters.

You built a big, scary clan mech, but I'm sorry, it's nothing new or special, and it's not suddenly magically less silly to have dozens of those in one spot than any other answer you've gotten.

Okay so barring I said no magical things, the problem is that the above strategy can conceivably be used to defeat ANY and ALL Mech invasions in the Battletech universe. There are some reasons I think that shouldn't work, the best being some kind of FASAnomics like Jumpship rarity and how many techs it really takes to re-assemble a vehicle from raw parts.

[Daryk]

More specifically, anything slower than 5/8/5.  The way to counter my force is with tough 'mechs that are faster (like Wraiths).  Your 100-ton cluster would probably kill a battalion of Wraiths without breaking a sweat.  Like I said, it's like rock-paper-scissors, just with quite a few more options.  Personally, I think that's one of the beauties of the system.

[Imperium]

More specifically, anything slower than 5/8/5.  The way to counter my force is with tough 'mechs that are faster (like Wraiths).  Your 100-ton cluster would probably kill a battalion of Wraiths without breaking a sweat.  Like I said, it's like rock-paper-scissors, just with quite a few more options.  Personally, I think that's one of the beauties of the system.

I actually don't know if the design system for Battletech is really balanced.

[Daryk]

Parts of it are, parts of it aren't.  Stick with it long enough, and you'll see.  A lot of the balancing has to come down to mutual agreement between players.  Like a lot of games, really.

[Liam's Ghost]

Okay so barring I said no magical things, the problem is that the above strategy can conceivably be used to defeat ANY and ALL Mech invasions in the Battletech universe. There are some reasons I think that shouldn't work, the best being some kind of FASAnomics like Jumpship rarity and how many techs it really takes to re-assemble a vehicle from raw parts.

You don't have to re-assemble anything from raw parts. You can just carry the whole vehicle assembled as cargo (a cargo bay can carry anything light enough to fit inside it intact). It takes a bit longer to unload than a proper bay (though it's tonnage based, so not much longer at all for such a small vehicle) and you can't conduct repairs in flight and you need to carry the crew separately.

It's actually a pretty common way to carry vehicles. It a lot of cases, it's simply easier to transport large numbers of tanks this way.

Honestly, the only reason the universe isn't dominated by massive numbers of tanks instead of small numbers of mechs is mostly mutual consent among the players not to look at it too hard.  :D

[Caedis Animus]

Frankly, if the other side is going to insist on having all direwolves all the time, it seems like a reasonable response. Cheese leads to cheese. I tried to offer a more mundane force, I tried to talk about other options, but you keep going on about the Savannah Masters. I feel like I should bury you in Savannah Masters.

^This right here is why I stopped taking any serious approach to fighting this 60 Astartes force. I'm not saying that that isn't a pit to fight for the ages, but it's simply not worth the time to come up with a solid force that doesn't do the same thing with greater numbers of cheaper units.

Hell, my original Company alone (And I was going to write up 7 more, mind you, because 60 Astartes is about enough BV for that) consisted of four Kraken 3s, four Salamanders, and four Thunder Stallions. And that was just the fire support mech company. And in the end, I'd be far happier to just drop ordnance on them from a pocket warship or very far  and decently guarded artillery-in fact, it'd probably be cheaper in the long-term, and all-in-all the most reasonable response. And I, for the life of me, don't understand OP's insistence that he didn't make the most boring unit ever or his belief that fighting a cheese cluster with harder and better cheese is somehow bad.

In the end, all I want to do is give that little Astartes force some Nuclear learning experience.

Okay but that works both ways. If you are using long-range smoke, my guys can back up. So to hit me from smoke you have to get in my range, and then I can unload with a good amount of ammo, TC and heat sinks. This is not an easy to beat design. That is my main problem with your objection - you are acting like you can beat even a Cluster of this easy.

ESPECIALLY this. This attitude, in and of itself, will not earn you many friends, and I can win easily by just walking away from the table.

[(SMD)MadCow]

This is not an easy to beat design. That is my main problem with your objection - you are acting like you can beat even a Cluster of this easy.

But it is easy to win using unconventional tactics. It's a great clan duelist style mech for sure, but if the task is to  defeat a large number of them, then you cant play against its strength and expect to win every outcome. The biggest problem you have is insisting on 60 of these at a time, which will make your movements predictable since they're slow. You will be outmaneuvered.
Don't forget your BV is astronomical and it's a custom unit, so anything can be coming your way; no one has mentioned stealth suit infantry or air dropped battle armor yet. Custom problems beget custom solutions.
You remind me of another edgelord from a few years ago who would post up 100 ton streak carriers and pompously announce they were undefeatable. Don't be that guy.

[Greatclub]

There's not nearly that big a swing in +/-1, going from 9 to 8 is 27% vs 41%. You get better numbers by closing the range.
And everyone makes something like this when they start customizing stuff.

From 6 to 7 is around a 17% change. The tarcomp's 14% swing between 9 and 8 is still enough to justify it's existence, and that's my cutoff for heat-causing and ammo-limited shots.

[(SMD)MadCow]

From 6 to 7 is around a 17% change. The tarcomp's 14% swing between 9 and 8 is still enough to justify it's existence, and that's my cutoff for heat-causing and ammo-limited shots.

He was claiming a 25% swing for a +/-1, which is just not the case.

[Sabelkatten]

You can't go from 25% to 50%, but dropping from 11 to 10 is a doubling of your hit chance (8% to 16%).