Author Topic: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!  (Read 145871 times)

Minemech

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #870 on: 04 October 2023, 17:43:19 »
 Daoshen is an accurate representation of Capellan cosmology, and therefore an interesting character. He is much more intelligent and far sighted than you are crediting. I will give you that he has done creepy and unacceptable things, but he has done so because that is where Capellan ideology leads, similar to Egyptian Pharaonic ideology in later periods. Remember he is an accurate representation of Capellan source material.

tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #871 on: 04 October 2023, 19:23:30 »
Daoshen is an accurate representation of Capellan cosmology, and therefore an interesting character. He is much more intelligent and far sighted than you are crediting. I will give you that he has done creepy and unacceptable things, but he has done so because that is where Capellan ideology leads, similar to Egyptian Pharaonic ideology in later periods. Remember he is an accurate representation of Capellan source material.

Incest being an expression of Capellan ideology is certainly... an opinion.

I get the gist of what you're saying, though. And personally, I find Daoshen just as interesting as I find Danai. But I also agree that the setting, and most especially the Capellans, would benefit from having Daoshen removed from the equation. I agree that he's both intelligent and farsighted (just ask Amanda Hasek about that), but I also think his obsession with taking Terra is clouding his judgment. We're already seeing the cracks: letting the Unity Pact fall by the wayside, the situation with both Andurien and Canopus, the execution of Xavier McCarron, etc.

I just hope that some writer will remember that Danai is not only half-Canopian but was raised Canopian, and leverage that into the faltering alliance. Her latest novel leaned so hard into her learning what it is to be Capellan and didn't really touch on her Canopian side, and we didn't get to see her return to Canopus for the funeral of the woman that raised her, so my hopes aren't too high.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2023, 19:37:21 by tassa_kay »
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Minemech

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #872 on: 04 October 2023, 20:16:59 »
 The issue with the Capellan cosmology is that the Chancellor is the state, allies are simply chaos being manipulated for its benefit. Daoshen is in fact acting within that understanding. Danai may very well turn that way. To be a Chancellor is not simply to hold an office, it is to be the state incarnate, free from blemish.

 As for the incest, it has a background particularly highlighted by the Ptolemic dynasty who ruled over Egypt. The most famous instance involved Cleopatra. There were examples preceding that dynasty, but they are practically the name brand. Egypt's concept of divinization was considerably different with the Confucian concept, which makes this movement aberrant, but not unheard of in East Asia. The Confederation itself is not steadfast to Confucianism, even if key concepts are derived from it, so borrowing from the Egyptian cosmology might not be off. For a typical Capellan citizen it would be illegal.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2023, 20:18:49 by Minemech »

tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #873 on: 04 October 2023, 22:50:28 »
The issue with the Capellan cosmology is that the Chancellor is the state, allies are simply chaos being manipulated for its benefit. Daoshen is in fact acting within that understanding. Danai may very well turn that way. To be a Chancellor is not simply to hold an office, it is to be the state incarnate, free from blemish.

Yes, we're aware of all this. It doesn't change the fact that this mindset of his is in fact blinding him to the very real issues that are mounting for his nation. He can be intelligent and farsighted and still fall prey to his own delusions of grandeur.

Danai turning out like Daoshen completely misses the point of who Danai is as a character. After her assault by Caleb and then learning that Daoshen and Ilsa were her parents, she was able to start healing and moving forward by vowing not to be like either of them. It would be straight-up character assassination to have her follow in Daoshen's divine footsteps.

Quote
As for the incest, it has a background particularly highlighted by the Ptolemic dynasty who ruled over Egypt. The most famous instance involved Cleopatra. There were examples preceding that dynasty, but they are practically the name brand. Egypt's concept of divinization was considerably different with the Confucian concept, which makes this movement aberrant, but not unheard of in East Asia. The Confederation itself is not steadfast to Confucianism, even if key concepts are derived from it, so borrowing from the Egyptian cosmology might not be off. For a typical Capellan citizen it would be illegal.

I mean, it's an interesting theory, but it's just headcanon. There's nothing to suggest any of this idea is actually the case. This isn't a Capellan thing, it's a Daoshen thing. He's the way he is because of Kali's influence over him, since she's the one that had him believing his own hype. He grew up making everyone around him acknowledge him as a living god and being a cruel bastard in general. In that context, his relationship with Ilsa makes perfect sense: like most abusers, it's about power and control for Daoshen.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2023, 23:14:20 by tassa_kay »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #874 on: 05 October 2023, 06:09:07 »
So let's say Daoshen falls what would the Confederation or rather the CCAF do next? The last time it happened (during the Capellan Crusades) the CCAF went into a berserker mode raging against the RAF and only stopped when their machines were literally breaking apart. Would this be different should Danai take charge? I would assume she would at least try to channel that anger to achieve some form of victory to gain an advantgageous position in negotioations. That is IF the wolves even accept negotiations and not demand "Bow before the Ilclan!" The way we are heading might lead to a total devastation of the center of the IS and the now reeling states like the Commonwealth and the Federated suns coming out as the real winners simply by surviving and not fighting in the thickest fights (though those states still have civil wars hanging over their heads)

Generalripphook

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #875 on: 05 October 2023, 12:20:34 »
Danai turning out like Daoshen completely misses the point of who Danai is as a character. After her assault by Caleb and then learning that Daoshen and Ilsa were her parents, she was able to start healing and moving forward by vowing not to be like either of them. It would be straight-up character assassination to have her follow in Daoshen's divine footsteps.

Isn't "I have to become what I swore I would never be" a classic character path? 

tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #876 on: 05 October 2023, 12:26:55 »
Isn't "I have to become what I swore I would never be" a classic character path?

I would certainly hope CGL has more sense than to turn a rape survivor into the kind of person that committed the assault to begin with. BIG yikes on that terrible idea.
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Generalripphook

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #877 on: 05 October 2023, 12:58:39 »
I would certainly hope CGL has more sense than to turn a rape survivor into the kind of person that committed the assault to begin with. BIG yikes on that terrible idea.

Yeah I certainly hope they don't do that. Yet there are other ways that Danai can be like Daoshen without raping

tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #878 on: 05 October 2023, 13:07:24 »
Yeah I certainly hope they don't do that. Yet there are other ways that Danai can be like Daoshen without raping

It would still be grossly out of character. Danai wasn’t raised like Daoshen, believing in her own divinity, which is the primary reason (other than his mental illness) he is the way that he is. Her entire character arc has been about her learning to be her own leader, without becoming like either of her parents, and having her turn out like Daoshen anyway would make all of that an enormous waste of time for anyone invested in her character.
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MarauderD

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #879 on: 05 October 2023, 13:12:40 »
It would still be grossly out of character. Danai wasn’t raised like Daoshen, believing in her own divinity, which is the primary reason (other than his mental illness) he is the way that he is. Her entire character arc has been about her learning to be her own leader, without becoming like either of her parents, and having her turn out like Daoshen anyway would make all of that an enormous waste of time for anyone invested in her character.

Danai is going to have to walk her own path:  without any of the divine celestial being nonsense.  It is why she'd be a good chancellor.  Her Canopian pragmatism makes her better suited to rule.  She isn't going to become anything like Daoshen, she's going to have to be something more than he could be.  I think she'll be a good character moving forward.

Minemech

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #880 on: 05 October 2023, 13:17:07 »
 I get that you want a Capellan Chancellor without the Capellanisms in it, but Danai is going to have to choose between being a Chancellor or a lowly Magistrex. She would essentially have to abandon documents like the Korvin Doctrine to make what you want to work, which would implode the Confederation. You can move from a Hohiro to a Takashi, but not from a Hohiro to a Hanse and have the same state.

Minemech

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #881 on: 05 October 2023, 13:31:54 »
Yeah I certainly hope they don't do that. Yet there are other ways that Danai can be like Daoshen without raping
That is the thesis. Danai wants to be the grown up, the Successor Lord, and through her experiences in the Confederation has learned that this is a very different reality than the Magistracy could prepare her for. Ilsa thought she was a master manipulator but was in actuality in the minor leagues. Danai is learning what it means to be a Chancellor and it is changing her in a ways she thought impossible years ago. Furthermore, she cannot allow her thoughts on the matter in question to influence her lest a foreign power have some sort of hold on her the way Ilsa thought she had on Daoshen. She is becoming a Chancellor.

tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #882 on: 05 October 2023, 13:55:44 »
Danai is going to have to walk her own path:  without any of the divine celestial being nonsense.  It is why she'd be a good chancellor.  Her Canopian pragmatism makes her better suited to rule.  She isn't going to become anything like Daoshen, she's going to have to be something more than he could be.  I think she'll be a good character moving forward.

I agree with this 100%.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #883 on: 06 October 2023, 02:39:07 »
Danai should just think about rule number 1 in the Confederation: the chancellor IS the Confederation. What he or she says is the rule. So in that regard she might have it easier to rule according to her believes. And to be honest are there any other candidates for the throne? Daoshen's sister is "confined" to the Magistarcy. And are there any other mainline Liao's left to contest a possible Danai rule?

BrianDavion

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #884 on: 06 October 2023, 15:46:25 »
Minemech has a good point that Danai can't just abandon what makes the Confederation the Confederation, and IMHO that's where I see her arc getting most intreasting as Chancellor. There's a common myth that absolute monarchs have a "do whatever the hell you want" card. but that's not entirly true they're bound by conventions and customs, that breaking can cause... problems.
So Danai will likely have to play the game, and she's going to HATE it.
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Decoy

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #885 on: 06 October 2023, 16:57:34 »
I would love to see a civil war between Danai and the Thuggees. Something that shatters House Liao as Danai has to rip apart the Confederation to eliminate the hydra.
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tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #886 on: 06 October 2023, 17:33:35 »
I would love to see a civil war between Danai and the Thuggees. Something that shatters House Liao as Danai has to rip apart the Confederation to eliminate the hydra.

I think it’s far more likely that the FedSuns will rip itself apart at this point than this fever dream ever coming to pass.
« Last Edit: 06 October 2023, 17:35:29 by tassa_kay »
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BrianDavion

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #887 on: 06 October 2023, 18:46:39 »
There's not a lot of evidance the Thugees hold a ton of political power any more, (and honestly I kinda suspect that they're not going to want to highlight the thugees as "real world religion ick")  if there is any conflict within the CapCon it'll be between Dani and the cult of Liao. 
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tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #888 on: 06 October 2023, 21:01:41 »
What "cult of Liao"? Unless you meant that hyperbolically, because there's no actual religion attached to the Liaos (leaving aside the Thuggees, of course) or even to Daoshen himself.
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BrianDavion

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #889 on: 08 October 2023, 21:30:58 »
What "cult of Liao"? Unless you meant that hyperbolically, because there's no actual religion attached to the Liaos (leaving aside the Thuggees, of course) or even to Daoshen himself.

There are people in the CapCon who see TL and Daoshen as divine. I could see them pushing back against Danai if she doesn't play along with their expectations
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Minemech

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #890 on: 08 October 2023, 21:51:30 »
There are people in the CapCon who see TL and Daoshen as divine. I could see them pushing back against Danai if she doesn't play along with their expectations
I agree, and they may include the Prefectural Council.

tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #891 on: 08 October 2023, 23:43:45 »
We've never seen any evidence of these toadies and yes-men being of any consequence whatsoever. I think you're both seriously overestimating the presence of people who actually see Daoshen the way he sees himself. I'd be far more worried about the Thuggees, honestly, since we have seen them do exactly this sort of thing before and know that they're still a current threat.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #892 on: 09 October 2023, 02:27:11 »
Are the thugees even a real threat at this point? Their figurehead turned herself and a couple of followers into living candles and then...nothing happened. Not to mention their terror campaign on New Syrtis resulted in...nothing (except a lot of dead civilians). Of course there could be a "new figurtehead out of nowhere" but so far that front is quiet. Eerily quite. The major "breaking point" will be once Daoshen gets himself killed against the Clans (you know it's coming). Then comes the questiopn what happens next. Maybe someone will bring out Sun Tzu's body and have him do some tricks or something similar.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #893 on: 09 October 2023, 20:33:14 »
What "cult of Liao"?

The whole Celestial Throne/Celestial Wisdom thing always struck me as deifying the Chancellor and their family in ways that the other Houses never pursued.  (Even the Coordinator explicitly does not make claims of divinity, IIRC.)  That didn’t mean that every patriotic Capellan was a cultist, but I’d also venture that some small portion of the population was susceptible to cult-like behavior with respect to the Liaos.  And then maybe some facets of that phenomenon show up in the Thugees, certain Warrior Houses, and maybe some Death Commandos and Maskirovka elements.

FWIW…

« Last Edit: 09 October 2023, 22:50:08 by Natasha Kerensky »
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tassa_kay

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #894 on: 09 October 2023, 21:38:40 »
The whole Celestial Throne thing always struck me as deifying the Chancellor and their family in ways that the other Houses never pursued.  (Even the Coordinator explicitly does not make claims of divinity, IIRC.)  That didn’t mean that every patriotic Capellan was a cultist, but I’d also venture that some small portion of the population was susceptible to cult-like behavior with respect to the Liaos.  And then maybe some facets of that phenomenon show up in the Thugees, certain Warrior Houses, and maybe some Death Commandos and Maskirovka elements.

FWIW…

It's worth quite a bit, actually. Thank you, as always, for actual canon info and insight.

Are the thugees even a real threat at this point? Their figurehead turned herself and a couple of followers into living candles and then...nothing happened. Not to mention their terror campaign on New Syrtis resulted in...nothing (except a lot of dead civilians). Of course there could be a "new figurtehead out of nowhere" but so far that front is quiet. Eerily quite. The major "breaking point" will be once Daoshen gets himself killed against the Clans (you know it's coming). Then comes the questiopn what happens next. Maybe someone will bring out Sun Tzu's body and have him do some tricks or something similar.

Also a very good point, especially without a known leader to rally behind now that Ki-linn is dead. That said, she's also a martyr, and the Thuggees have proven time and again that they're an ever-present threat. That's also why I won't agree that their actions on New Syrtis resulted in nothing; from their perspective, the death is the point as much as (if not moreso) any other goal they might've had, sacrifices to the Death Goddess.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #895 on: 09 October 2023, 23:08:49 »
Also, in the DA novel By Temptations and By War, Sun-Tzu’s aged and sick but cryogenically frozen body is guarded by a literal Cult of Liao on the planet Liao.  The novel’s main character leads the Cult and is also the XO of House Ijori.  That’s probably what the other poster upthread was referring to.

Sun-Tzu is also said to have ascended to godhood after the “death” that put him in the cryo chamber guarded by the cult.
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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #896 on: 10 October 2023, 00:02:31 »
Also, in the DA novel By Temptations and By War, Sun-Tzu’s aged and sick but cryogenically frozen body is guarded by a literal Cult of Liao on the planet Liao.  The novel’s main character leads the Cult and is also the XO of House Ijori.  That’s probably what the other poster upthread was referring to.

That would make sense. I haven't read that book in well over a decade and forgot like 90% of the plot. Still, we haven't seen mention of this cult since, so I wouldn't necessarily say they're a serious consideration within the CapCon's political structure right now. Plus with CGL doing so much shifting away from the WizKids-era Dark Age, part of me doubts anyone even remembers they exist.

Quote
Sun-Tzu is also said to have ascended to godhood after the “death” that put him in the cryo chamber guarded by the cult.

Now this part I remember.
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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #897 on: 10 October 2023, 02:23:53 »
Switching gears a bit how do we feel about a Capellan ‘heavy’ scout lance of
2 Agrotera, 1 ShadowHawk 8L, and 1 Yinghuochong.

I’m not happy with its limited EWAR set up, aside from the Shadow Hawk. Lots of TAG tho. There aren’t a lot of overtly fast or improved jumpers with EWAR stuff to pair nicely.
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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #898 on: 10 October 2023, 05:40:35 »
Also a very good point, especially without a known leader to rally behind now that Ki-linn is dead. That said, she's also a martyr, and the Thuggees have proven time and again that they're an ever-present threat. That's also why I won't agree that their actions on New Syrtis resulted in nothing; from their perspective, the death is the point as much as (if not moreso) any other goal they might've had, sacrifices to the Death Goddess.

Fair point. A lot of Thugee actions under Kali Liao looked liked utter lunacy but in reality led to benefits for the Confederation. The main issue is though thatwe don't know much about the current day thugees. While the actions on New Syrtis seem to indicate that they have resurged there isn't an indication that they are "everywhere". Maybe we get more once the real action against the Clans pick up.

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Re: The Art of War: Home of the Capellan Confederation!
« Reply #899 on: 10 October 2023, 20:00:34 »
Everything whithin the state, nothing without the state.

The chancellor is the personnification of the confederation. For various reasons the Liaos are the chancellors (though I point out that from memory the confederation has been happier with "non-ruling line leaders" then other successor states). It is inevitable that having a "cult", which could easily be in a light sense, like parading once per month with an effigy of the chosen one, around a human being is easier to understand then a cult towards vague notions of an all-encompassing system which ends up having an aristocracy anyway. Two kinds of 'em to boot.

But that's basically it, there's a difference between deifying a distant leader in a state cult, and TRUELY considering him as god incarnate. There's a difference between deifying a man and having a cult to him, and being bound to the state. The man will be replace, people come and go, but there is no existence if there is no state.

Another illustration regarding de deification of the last chancellors (which had never been a thing before): Think of old polytheistic religions in the more philosophically bound societys of antiquity. The religion was, not completely but still mostly, a "state cult", not a "religion" as we tend to comprehend the word. Much the same, in the middle empire, while the emperor weilded the mandate of heaven, he could be replaced in a moment's notice and his subjects would merely look forward to the new "coronation festival".

The chancellor is the personnification...but only that. He is still subordinate to the state in theorie. Hence why the chancellors prior to Romano were all very keen in re-interpreting the Korvin doctrine, the Sarna mandate and the basic tenets of warrioresque filial piety, I mean the Lorix Order. The chancellor is but a man and while the theorie behind the confederation has been tempered with in time, history is not necessarly forgotten.

I mean, which warrior house was the most eager in upholding the ideas of the Lorix Order? The same that was considered less reliable then the others.

The Sarna mandate enabled a resurgence of the nobility. Then during the reign of Tormax, through re-interpretation, it allowed to curb their growing influence.

A state cannot stagnate for too long. Its policies evolve.

Now, let us consider something of the inner workings of the confederation. Maximilian managed to find enough dissent among the ruling caste to make a coup against his father, the ruling celestial wisdom, and install his people in most key positions of power in the confederation without anyone saying anything and with, for all we know, minimal blood shed with only higher ups being liquidated for replacement.

Following the coup, power struggles were constant. It was not necessarly attempts to grab power on an purely individual basis, not necessarly attempts at gaining more prestige for one's aristocratic line... But power struggles were very real. Warrior house against CCAF, Death commandos against Maskirovka, and everything in between...

Now the fallout of the 4th SW enabled Romano to clean house as well as definitely crushing the power of (at least) the Sheng nobles, notably with a great deal of nationalization of the economy (I seem to recall there were contradictory entries on this subject in the handbook though)...But Sun Tzu undertook steps for a certain liberilisation of society and economy.

Then, I remember clearly all those passages in "the capellan solution" where Sun Tzu is always carefull to keep his inner circle divided...assuredly for he knows that his position as chancellor is that of a god, but mewrely an embodiment of the state, and that he is not the sole individual capable of playing this role, as capellan history shows.

And then you have the prefectorate and the linked house of scions, the power of which has sometimes been quite strong....to the point of naming the most incapable chancellor in the history of the CC if I recall.

Inner power struggles are not really the main draw point of the BTU and hence only show up as needed...but inner power struggles are rarely things that are shown in broad daylight until they are ready for it, or coerced into action before they reach their maturity. It's far from impossible to do something with all this. A Civil war, not with thugees, but between traditional elements of capellan governement, could be quite the epic tale. Not likely to happen, sure, but  a potential epic tale nonetheless. The death of Daoshen could put several things in motion, espescially if it coincides with a defeat. It would be ridiculous that so many powerfull entities would be happy with the curtailing of their prerogatives since Romano Liao to keep foolishly smiling ever after, even through defeat. When your nation is winning...can't argue with success, but defeat opens another realm of possibilities.




 

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