Author Topic: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?  (Read 33100 times)

VensersRevenge

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #30 on: 20 January 2022, 12:49:48 »
I strongly disagree. Alaric is not, and cannot, be legitimate and he has to know that. He's illegitimate, his claims to the throne both had their rights given up, he's a Clanner, he's never served in the AFFS. He could make a compromise with Julian, giving him an ally he didn't need to conquer and fight against two of his three most likely enemies (Confederation and Combine), or he could use a laughably weak claim to attempt to conquer a realm that should reasonably rise up against him because there are random nobodies with a better claim than he does.
...Is this just fantasy?
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CJC070

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #31 on: 20 January 2022, 12:51:33 »
If TPTB think that Alaric Ward will count as enough of a Davion to keep FedSuns fans engaged, their opinion of us is even lower than I thought.

When his genetics reveal him to be Katherine’s son I would welcome him with open arms.  With a knife ready to slit his throat from ear to ear.

CVB

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #32 on: 20 January 2022, 12:53:41 »
If TPTB think that Alaric Ward will count as enough of a Davion to keep FedSuns fans engaged, their opinion of us is even lower than I thought.
The question may be how much the percentage of Davion fans today actually is, given that multiple gamer generations have learned that the FedSuns are the designated whipping boy and the insufferably white-hatted munchkin faction, at the same time.

Davion fans might just have become a vocal, but economically insignificant minority.

If more Alaric/Wolf/Clan fans can be engaged by Alaric swallowing the FedSuns than Davion fans by the Suns remaining a viable faction, the answer seems clear.
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Middcore

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #33 on: 20 January 2022, 12:56:47 »
I still struggle with the idea that Alaric fans actually exist.

But anyway, even the FWL didn't stay dead, and I guarantee you there are still more FedSuns fans than FWL fans, so I don't think you guys have much to worry about.
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MarauderD

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #34 on: 20 January 2022, 13:03:04 »
The question may be how much the percentage of Davion fans today actually is, given that multiple gamer generations have learned that the FedSuns are the designated whipping boy and the insufferably white-hatted munchkin faction, at the same time.

Davion fans might just have become a vocal, but economically insignificant minority.

Last time there was a poll on this forum, Davion fans came out as the majority.  So TPTB know we are not an economically insignificant minority.

And I think in the short run, Alaric would want member states like the FedSuns and FWL in the Star League--makes cowing immediate opponents like the CCAF and DCMS much easier. 

Alaric can go all mustache-twirly dominatrix after the armies that would rather burn Terra to the ground than see a new Clan led Star League reborn are dealt with accordingly.  That means at the very least courting (or cowing) the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns to be good little members of the Star League while the Combine and Confederation are given bloody noses by the new galactic bully.

CVB

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #35 on: 20 January 2022, 13:32:30 »
Last time there was a poll on this forum, Davion fans came out as the majority.  So TPTB know we are not an economically insignificant minority.

Majority? Or plurality?
Anyway I'm not sure how representative a poll on a web forum is. I just assume that TPTB know more about buyer behaviour than we all do. And if they think it makes business sense to kick one faction in the teeth for three decades while pampering others for just as long it tells me that FedSuns fans either aren't at the top of the priority list, or that they are extremely masochistic. (Or TPTB have a very long strategy and we will still see FedSuns Rampant, somewhere around 2053 (IRL)...)

Quote
And I think in the short run, Alaric would want member states like the FedSuns and FWL in the Star League--makes cowing immediate opponents like the CCAF and DCMS much easier. 

Alaric will want whatever TPTB tell him to want  ;D
« Last Edit: 20 January 2022, 13:35:00 by CVB »
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
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Middcore

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #36 on: 20 January 2022, 13:47:19 »
Majority? Or plurality?
Anyway I'm not sure how representative a poll on a web forum is. I just assume that TPTB know more about buyer behaviour than we all do. And if they think it makes business sense to kick one faction in the teeth for three decades while pampering others for just as long it tells me that FedSuns fans either aren't at the top of the priority list, or that they are extremely masochistic. (Or TPTB have a very long strategy and we will still see FedSuns Rampant, somewhere around 2053 (IRL)...)

Call me crazy, but I actually don't think decisions like this are based on what the estimated fan response will be at all.

Most fans of this IP, it seems to me, were attracted by other elements first and then picked "their" faction second, and they don't stick with the franchise because of what happens or doesn't happen to their faction. They welcome good things that happen and put up with the rest. There are still people all over this forum with avatars of factions that were killed off (or only resurrected very recently), they didn't abandon the franchise because of it.

So I suspect TPTB make decisions based on some mix of what they think will be the best story and which factions/characters they personally like (how influential you think each factor is depends on how cynical you are) and expect the fans will roll with it.

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CVB

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #37 on: 20 January 2022, 14:02:01 »
Maybe. I just hope they are driven enough by business sense that we have a franchise for a long time to come :thumbsup:
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
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phoenixalpha

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #38 on: 20 January 2022, 14:10:15 »
Why would Alaric need to invade the FedSuns? It's an absolute no win situation for him. The AFFS aren't in any position to attack the Wolf Empire/Star League. Attacking the AFFS would just burn good units on both side that are desperately needed elsewhere to defend against real enemies. Alaric's best option would be to say to Julian - hey, join my ilClan Star League and I'll recognise you as Federated Suns Lord on the High Council and we'll do a joint attack on the CapCon. You'll get the old FedSuns planets back plus a few new ones, the ilClan Star League will get the Republic worlds back from the CapCon and we'll broker a cease fire after a certain while and force the CapCon into the ilClan Star League with a promise of no more ongoing attacks on their planets from either the Clan forces or AFFS forces. He tasks the Bears with attacking the DC to keep the Combine off Davion's back - the Bears get some Combine worlds to keep, he punishes Kurita for destroying the Nova Cats, he can bring both the Bears and the Combine into the ilClan Star League by negotiating a peace between both. The Bears have got sod all else to do and everyone is a winner in the new ilClan Star League. He can bring the FWL into the Star League because it makes economic sense, the Lyran's he can also bring in by helping stabilise their border with what is left of Clan Hell's Horses and bring some of the smaller Lyran splinter realms back under control like the Fallen Falcons and Tamar.

Colt Ward

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #39 on: 20 January 2022, 14:13:28 »
I strongly disagree. Alaric is not, and cannot, be legitimate and he has to know that. He's illegitimate, his claims to the throne both had their rights given up, he's a Clanner, he's never served in the AFFS.

Illegitimacy never matters if someone is in a position strong enough to make a claim.  Illegitimacy only matters when it is someone being disinherited- look at history.  Just like Trillian says the Lyrans will have a portion of the population that will be good with his claim, so too would the Suns.  Just as the apparatus of the FedSuns looked the other way when Katherine took the throne . . . when mentally unstable Caleb took the throne . . . when the First Lord Davion, grandson of the Fox and based on acumen his true heir, with a closer claim to the throne than Julian's, tried to claim the throne . . . how many might just shrug, thinking it is better to have someone successful running the show rather than limping along?  But that is a IC perspective, we know Alaric's plans which he formulates IC . . .

 . . . he is not concerned with TPTB's plans for the franchise nor the unwritten rule about how the House's leadership cannot change.  THAT is why he will fail for some reason no matter how convoluted.  I have never said I expect Alaric's vision of the Inner Sphere to materialize, and for my personal play preference the fracturing of the JFOZ area into Republic Factions 2.0 is what I like.  One thing also neglected is the difference between House Davion and the Fed Suns, they are not exactly the same thing and the current First Prince is not of Hanse's line- the glory days.  With the mass resurrection of the dead, I think TPTB have signaled they will not do away with any group that has a popular backing . . . so where are Bannson's Raiders?

But as far as the In Character grand strategic picture?  It still stands, the same reasons not to take out the FedSuns as a nation-threat are also the reasons to strike them down.  Strike them while they are weak.  Strike them while they are distracted.  Strike them before they can rebuild/stabilize into a stronger threat.  It gives the Clan Star League a easy first win.

The only real reason by Alaric's plan not to hit the FedSuns is that he wants a constant grinding war to give his and the other Clan warriors a outlet to let them gain glory.  He does not want a massive decisive war that ends a possible combatant.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #40 on: 20 January 2022, 14:25:14 »
And Katherine was illegitimate too. The fact she took power shows how little TPTB cared about the institutions of the FedSuns, but I am holding out hope that will change. And quite simply, how is Alaric pressing his claim? The Wolves are currently weak, and while he probably could take on only the FedSuns, what about the Hells Horses? The Capellan Confederation? The Draconis Combine? Can he be sure the Ghost Bears and Snow Ravens will actually support him? His industrial base is largely unguarded and both the Free Worlds League and Lyran Commonwealth could take advantage of that. The Suns are currently the faction least capable of harming Alaric, and can help him deal with the Confederation and/or Combine. Why would Alaric, who is presented as a canny politician, waste limited resources on them when they are a valuable asset?
...Is this just fantasy?
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MarauderD

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #41 on: 20 January 2022, 15:40:51 »
The Suns are currently the faction least capable of harming Alaric, and can help him deal with the Confederation and/or Combine. Why would Alaric, who is presented as a canny politician, waste limited resources on them when they are a valuable asset?

That's my hope--that Alaric the politician sees the FedSuns as a worthy foil to the Combine and Confederation.  Hopefully Julian is also smart enough to not get burned by the Wolves/Star League--and put on his Machiavellian hat to advance the Federated Suns interests at all costs.

BrianDavion

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #42 on: 21 January 2022, 02:36:19 »
I suspect Alaric will have bigger fish to fry then the federated suns.

He's going to have to have to put his house in order first, Empire alone will likely see a fair bit of damage in the wolf empire done, and he'll need to put out those fires. THEN he'll need to go to the hinterlands and bring the former falcon OZ to heel. Jiyi Christu and Marena are direct challanges to his authority that will need to be dealt with, pronto. he'll THEN need to deal with clan Hells horses.
And of course the Combine and capcon aren't going to magicly stop consuming the former republic just because terra fell.

ALL of these take priority over attacking the fedsuns, because the fedsuns isn't an actual threat. they can be, safely, ignored, the other issues I mentioned NEED to be addressed as if they're left to fester it will make Alaric's position untenuable.
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Orwell84

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #43 on: 21 January 2022, 02:42:38 »
Why would Alaric, who is presented as a canny politician, waste limited resources on them when they are a valuable asset?

That's my hope--that Alaric the politician sees the FedSuns as a worthy foil to the Combine and Confederation.  Hopefully Julian is also smart enough to not get burned by the Wolves/Star League--and put on his Machiavellian hat to advance the Federated Suns interests at all costs.

I suspect Alaric will have bigger fish to fry then the federated suns.

ALL of these take priority over attacking the fedsuns, because the fedsuns isn't an actual threat. they can be, safely, ignored, the other issues I mentioned NEED to be addressed as if they're left to fester it will make Alaric's position untenuable.

My own take on it too. Right now, even if an alliance isn't an option what reason do either have to attack each other? Hell, if you look at the 3151 map they still don't even share a border.

Not that the last part stopped Julian's ancestor in the 1SW from hitting the LC anyway while the DC was carving its way Barbarossa-style towards New Avalon. But Julian hopefully not that stupid.
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Templar87

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #44 on: 21 January 2022, 02:47:07 »
I look forward to the pending CapCon civil war as Danai gets set to toss Daoshen.  I still think it is funny some folks want to paint her a monster with war crimes when, IIRC, it was not conclusively proven she did it- her command under a superior officer?  Case can be made, but anything else is filtered through a biased POV in a sourcebook.


Even leaving aside the fact that being a senior officer of McCarron's Armoured Cavalry makes you inherently guilty of conspiracy to commit a myriad of war crimes (and the Second McCarron's, the regiment of which Danai is a proudly card-carrying member and latterly CO thereof, have on their rap sheet a case of planetary genocide within living memory), we got massacres of POWs, from ER 3145;

Quote
The Tikonov thrust began with an assault against New Hessen, spearheaded by a contingent from the Second McCarron's Armored Cavalry under the command of Sao-shao Danai Liao-Centrella. While the defenders were hopelessly outnumbered by the invaders, they put up a valiant resistance that was ultimately not strong enough to hold out for more than a few weeks. The Capellan victory was somewhat marred by the viciousness of the troops under Liao-Centrella's command, who followed their leader's example in showing little mercy to downed pilots or surrendered soldiers.

And FM 3145;

Quote
The Second has spent most of the past ten years in combat operations along the Confederation's coreward border, only occasionally returning to Menke for rest and repair. To Xavier McCarron the campaign is the perfect crucible in which to train his two sons. Nominally under the command of San-shao Shaiming Tao, the Second has become infamous for the brutality of their campaign against the Davions. Rumors have surfaced indicating all of the Third FedSuns Lancers captured at Tikonov were summarily executed.

And her culpability for Maskirovka kill-squads slaughtering whole towns solely for the purposes of getting their jollies, plus the nerve gas attack on the city of Saso (killing more than two hundred thousand people; mainly civilians due to the AFFS having CBRN gear sufficient to protect themselves) after the Federated Suns liberated New Syrtis, as described in both A Splinter of Hope (don't read it, btw; it's not good, due to trying to BOTHSIDES a situation where there are, in fact, clear good and bad guys) and Shattered Fortress; yes, Danai claims she's not responsible for this. but that falters on her subsequent claims. Because, if she is in command of Capellan forces on New Syrtis, then she is responsible for their atrocities, whether because she ordered them to do it or simply refused to control their behaviour; and if she is not - which is a requirement for her not being culpable - then why is Danai pretending she can make agreements that bind the forces she does not command?
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #45 on: 21 January 2022, 03:00:43 »
I guess she took over one trait from Daoshen: comitting warcrimes for fun. Remember how the Capellan crusades started? The night of screams on Liao and the subsequent treatment of RAF soldiers who were captured by the CCAF. Of course that in turn made Kai Allard Liao into a total madman who repaid blood in blood in his counter attacks (which got even worse when Burton Davion was killed under his command). So I am waiting for the day the Fedsuns bring out their own fury on captured CCAF soldiers or even Capellan civilians in a  tit for tat way.

BrianDavion

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #46 on: 21 January 2022, 03:03:08 »
at the very least I'm expecting summery executions of captured combine officers on New Avalon.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #47 on: 21 January 2022, 10:20:59 »

Even leaving aside the fact that being a senior officer of McCarron's Armoured Cavalry makes you inherently guilty of conspiracy to commit a myriad of war crimes (and the Second McCarron's, the regiment of which Danai is a proudly card-carrying member and latterly CO thereof, have on their rap sheet a case of planetary genocide within living memory), we got massacres of POWs, from ER 3145;

And FM 3145;

And her culpability for Maskirovka kill-squads slaughtering whole towns solely for the purposes of getting their jollies, plus the nerve gas attack on the city of Saso (killing more than two hundred thousand people; mainly civilians due to the AFFS having CBRN gear sufficient to protect themselves) after the Federated Suns liberated New Syrtis, as described in both A Splinter of Hope (don't read it, btw; it's not good, due to trying to BOTHSIDES a situation where there are, in fact, clear good and bad guys) and Shattered Fortress; yes, Danai claims she's not responsible for this. but that falters on her subsequent claims. Because, if she is in command of Capellan forces on New Syrtis, then she is responsible for their atrocities, whether because she ordered them to do it or simply refused to control their behaviour; and if she is not - which is a requirement for her not being culpable - then why is Danai pretending she can make agreements that bind the forces she does not command?

So . . .

#1  As I said these are all POV second hand accounts.  Until she in fiction from her POV or a observer actually guns down someone- and btw, the only time we see her in action she IS taking a prisoner in Legends- it is still not her committing war crimes.

#2  You do not have a right to surrender, sorry for the unfortunate truth but there are circumstances where you do not take prisoners.  Keeping prisoners and treating them well is a 'recent' trend/sensibility btw . . . go back 150 years?  And it was a roll of the dice to surrender at that point in history.  Heck, you do not have to go back too far for surrendering to be a bad idea.

#3  Your FM3145 makes the point that Danai was not in command of the regiment, so laying 100% of what was attributed to the 2nd MAC is again flawed thinking.  It also ties back into #1, it is a rumor being picked up by folks behind the Fortress without any hard intel or observers on hand.  The SB is even going to lengths to make it speculation, calling it rumor.

#4  The Splinter of Hope bit you mention?  Danai was not the commander on New Syrtis yet at that point because she had not arrived and with HPGs down, it is kind of hard to send orders?  Whoever was left of the Dynasty Guard had command and committed to the guerrilla campaign.  When she arrives on planet, as the senior commander and assumes command . . . THEN she is responsible.  But she is in no way responsible for actions that occurred on the planet before she arrived and assumed command.

You have plenty of crimes to lay at the feet of the CapCon, as seen by Shattered Fortress in how they are treating people on the conquered Republic worlds- those of 'Liao' descent who worked with/in the Republic being guilty of treason, any of the transplanted population being treated as invaders, and all sorts of other stuff which hails IMO back to the original Capellan source material that was abandoned with soft & fuzzy Sun-Tzu.  I would even stipulate that Danai was responsible for human rights violations when she was overseeing the transition of a Republic world into the Confederation.

But to throw out a claim of war crimes b/c you dislike the other faction and she is the leading actor for that faction cheapens what war crimes mean and those that have actually happened.

Now, I would agree with Brian, there should be some Nuremburg'ing when New Avalon is retaken if you can keep Drac functionaries from escaping.
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MarauderD

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #48 on: 21 January 2022, 11:59:04 »
Back to the question:  what does the FedSuns need to save itself?

1.  A Star League that is at least neutral, if not an active ally.
2.  Reconquest of some mech production facilities:  we know Robinson is back in AFFS hands thanks to the Republic.  Black Knights, Atlas III, Argus, and a couple others (Sentry/Watchman?) are produced there.  What is needed is New Avalon.
3.  One of the two fronts need to be totally focused elsewhere.  I'm thinking either Capellan Civil war between Daoshen and Danai, or at least massive fighting between the CCAF and the Star League. 

Anything I'm forgetting?

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #49 on: 21 January 2022, 12:12:20 »
They need to seize the initiative . . . interstellar war's paradigm shifted with the loss of the HPGs and now an attacker who gains momentum is very difficult to stop.  They need to make the Dracs respond to them rather than responding to Drac moves now that the Cappie border is somewhat silent.  IF they can force the Dracs to responding to them, then the rest of it follows and can be accomplished.
Colt Ward
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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #50 on: 21 January 2022, 12:54:56 »
To make a point of things, we are operating under the Ares convention, not the Geneva convention. This is what the Ares convention states in the Article 3, under surrender.

Quote from: Era Digest: Age of War pg. 14
Article III – Surrender
To lessen the human cost of warfare, all combatants must accept the
surrender of any unit that offers it. A white flag adorned with a red “S”
will represent the universal surrender standard, so that any unit unable
to communicate by conventional methods may still surrender fairly. The
universal surrender guidelines in Appendix E outline the provisions for
the treatment of prisoners and fair compensation for the capturing forces
upon the release of war prisoners to their native realms.

The Ares Conventions may be found in pages 13-15 in the Era Digest: Age of War. I suggest we all base our arguments on these instead of any real world agreements or treaties when discussing war crimes in the battletech universe, especially since Danai has expressed her desire to follow the Ares Conventions.
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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #51 on: 21 January 2022, 21:10:57 »
They need to seize the initiative . . . interstellar war's paradigm shifted with the loss of the HPGs and now an attacker who gains momentum is very difficult to stop.  They need to make the Dracs respond to them rather than responding to Drac moves now that the Cappie border is somewhat silent.  IF they can force the Dracs to responding to them, then the rest of it follows and can be accomplished.
I agree with this.  My thought is making the most of the Dragoon's absence, but I'm not familiar/forget where they were deployed exactly.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #52 on: 21 January 2022, 21:36:59 »
The Ares Conventions may be found in pages 13-15 in the Era Digest: Age of War. I suggest we all base our arguments on these instead of any real world agreements or treaties when discussing war crimes in the battletech universe, especially since Danai has expressed her desire to follow the Ares Conventions.

Ares Conventions have not been in force for centuries.  Such a article is extremely unrealistic as there are circumstances where you literally cannot take prisoners by the nature of the action and other situations (covert ops) a requirement to take prisoners can be tactically unsound.
Colt Ward
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BrianDavion

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #53 on: 21 January 2022, 21:47:29 »
Ares Conventions have not been in force for centuries.  Such a article is extremely unrealistic as there are circumstances where you literally cannot take prisoners by the nature of the action and other situations (covert ops) a requirement to take prisoners can be tactically unsound.

Yes coilt sometimes adhearing to th laws of war aren't always the easiest, but thats when you can judge someone's character, when and how quickly they abandon them.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #54 on: 22 January 2022, 07:26:49 »
No, it is a stupid idea . . . I have a bomber, and I am lining up to hit AA site.  AA Site rolls out that flag as described in that section.  How does the bomber take them prisoner?  How does it keep them prisoner?  How does the bomber insure they are no longer active in combat?  Answer-  They can't, can't, and no possible way.

Further example-  a covert operation that is behind enemy lines, either dropped in by 'chute, VTOL, or swam in, in a effort to take out a HQ, bridge or some other key objective as part of a general offensive.  They are following the laws of war as it applies, namely they wear their own countries uniform for identification.  To protect such objectives, an opponent generally runs patrols in sensitive areas and has LPOP to guard approaches.  Covert team cannot avoid a patrol, get in a fire fight and a survivor tries to surrender . . . how does that team take that person prisoner- because when you take a prisoner you are responsible for their welfare and safety?  IF they take them with them, it is a walking breathing security risk that endangers the whole team to discovery.  Further, having one or more individuals on that covert team trying to guard the prisoner distracts them from their jobs and again risks the lives of the team.

Ok, tie them up and leave them behind.  Well, if that person is recovered they now have intel on the team- size, activity, location (direction they came from, where contact was made, direction they left), uniform, time, and equipment.  All the things you want in a recon report.  This endangers the team, risks the mission being incomplete, and because the objective is not destroyed or degraded, endangers the lives of the troops who need that objective degraded in their coming assault.  But suppose the person is not recovered . . . but hidden too well, tied up, gagged, and blindfolded -the steps which would be the common out for the report attempted, does not work b/c they already know things since you cannot erase memory- so that any patrol sent to find the missing patrol cannot locate them.  Because, btw, a covert team if they had the time would try to sanitize the contact site to disguise their numbers, injuries, and weapons . . . which also means hauling off the dead bodies to hide them because it would delay pursuit since a starting point would not be obvious.  So the theoretical surrendering person is left to the mercy of the elements or wildlife, which violates the mandate that they care for and protect the prisoner.

Once you take up arms, you have no right to surrender.  For all the other insanity that various international bodies keep trying to codify into the laws of war, there is a reason it has never been done.

Military life is full of things that civilians would not be asked to do or could be considered atrocities.  Dresden firebombing for instance.  Heck, do you know what happens in Bio/Chem environment?  The sensors after whatever period give the all-clear, everything is tested again . . . and then they go to the lowest ranking non-essential person in the affected unit, take their personal weapon . . . and order them out of protective gear.  The doctrine is to use a human guinea pig to ensure the environment is safe for everyone else to uncover and that the equipment is not defective.
Colt Ward
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Decoy

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #55 on: 22 January 2022, 09:54:59 »
Congratulations. You just raised the Submariner's dilemma from World War I. Diplomats will often agree to things that rarely work in reality.  If Danai wants to operate under the Ares Convention, (And she has stated that she is operating under the Ares convention) then she is a war criminal. If not, then the FedSuns have LOTS of pay back to get and it should end with Danai's flayed body being dumped in the middle of Saso.  Let the foxes be rabid for a bit and see how the Capellans like that. They didn't like it much when the Republic did it to them, but maybe they need a bit more of a lesson in the matter.
"I invented (the drink) PPCs in a time before the internet showed me the depth of human stupidity."-Michael Stackpole.

VensersRevenge

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #56 on: 22 January 2022, 13:30:00 »
Or the Federated Suns could not become just as bad as the Capellans, and if they have to break the Conventions break them in a limited fashion not flaying a women fir no real reason.
...Is this just fantasy?
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BrianDavion

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #57 on: 22 January 2022, 16:05:18 »
I think it's worth remembering that Danai while presented as a reasonable character has some psychalogical issues, including PTSD..

frankly, the cappie front though shouldn't be the priority, the fedsuns needs to focus on the dracs. the cappies are focusing on terra and the old saying "never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake" comes to mind.

the wolf touman is currently, at least on paper, 30 clusters strong, in addition on terra you have the jade falcons (1-2 clusters strong) and the smoke Jaguars (about 100 warriors strong, so proably defacto a cluster in strength)

in addition you have the navies, the wolves and falcons have 5 or 6 warships each (can't remember if they lost any) and the jags presumably have a Dante.

even if the capcon could TAKE terra it'd destroy most of the CCAF to do so.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #58 on: 22 January 2022, 19:30:18 »
. . . it should end with Danai's flayed body being dumped in the middle of Saso.  . . .

She still was not in command when those actions were being taken on New Syrtis.  Novel's timing puts her landing after those guerilla warfare atrocities.

the wolf touman is currently, at least on paper, 30 clusters strong, in addition on terra you have the jade falcons (1-2 clusters strong) and the smoke Jaguars (about 100 warriors strong, so proably defacto a cluster in strength)

The Wolf strength is never actually pinned down, because the phrasing is that is what they have at that point.  It does not factor in the WIAs who maybe recovered in the intervening months while the Fortress is still up.  Heck, the Falcon number as presented is off just factoring in their warship & dropship contingents of warriors.  Jags do not have a Dante, the blew up the Flatus to keep the Wolf Empire from taking it.

But-

frankly, the cappie front though shouldn't be the priority, the fedsuns needs to focus on the dracs. the cappies are focusing on terra and the old saying "never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake" comes to mind.

A question of how sophisticated Erik and Julian are would be answered in how they attack the Dracs.  IF they can engineer a strategy to give the Warlord reversals but not exactly Yori it can play into their hands by trying to create some infighting in the DCMS between Toranga and Yori.  Give Yori enough room and the chance to break Toranga's control triggered by the DCMS experiencing a loss of confidence in the warlord.  Blame being over-extended, leaving the Republic border open allowing Eruptio to stomp all over, and the reliance on mercenaries causing the loss of the Tongue on his leadership and you give Yori a chance to wrest control away from 'her' warlord.  Not a civil war but it would still give them a very big breathing room and could be abetted by Yori hindering Toranga to cause him to lose more face.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

VensersRevenge

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Re: Can The FedSuns Save Itself In the iLClan Era?
« Reply #59 on: 22 January 2022, 19:39:04 »
That's assuming they have the knowledge to realize that split is large enough to take advantage of. The Combine has always been secretive, and the Blackout would only make it worse. Not to mention Toranaga could be a moderating influence and a Yori-dominated Combine would be even worse. Not a likely outcome admittingly, but one Julian has to be wary of.
...Is this just fantasy?
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