Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread

[Kidd]

And the best way to describe the settlement really is that Clan Harmony Gold suffered defeat at the hands of the stalwart defenders and was sent packing, but was granted hegira.

Awesome

and this Truce of Tukayyid doesn't expire!

[pheonixstorm]

Like I said in order to get over on CGL HG would have to prove damages. In order to do that they have to prove they own the right because that had already been called into question by PGI. I think everyone can see where that's going. Droping the case now was the only way HG keeps the rights they claim they have intact. Any other course of action puts them right back where they were before the settlement talks started. Odds are the judge would have ruled against HG in this case had it come to that. That's why HG droper the case. Hell it might have been HG's idea.

This is NOT TRUE. They don't have to prove anything when the other side is in default.

[Pat Payne]

This is NOT TRUE. They don't have to prove anything when the other side is in default.

Thankfully, this question has just become academic :)

[pheonixstorm]

So has anyone really read this https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/266758-harmony-gold-lawsuit/

It makes me worry how many souls PGI sacrificed for this victory.

The details on the resolution of the lawsuit are confidential and I am limited to this agreed upon language between HG and PGI.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Just to clarify for folks, this does not mean we're going back to the ancient Macross and Dougram images.  Those have been retconned out of existence, that is not what the Warhammer, Marauder, or Archer have ever looked like.

I'm not gonna say any more, I'm just gonna leave these here

That is, retroactive to all of the various "unseen" designs.  This is what they look like, this is what they always looked like, and the end of the lawsuit means that won't change.

[Dulahan]

So has anyone really read this https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/266758-harmony-gold-lawsuit/

It makes me worry how many souls PGI sacrificed for this victory.

Par for the course in any legal case.  Not to mention the judge hasn't even signed it yet.  I'm actually more surprised he was able to make a statement yet, period.

Plus he said on Twitter elsewhere that this is good news.  Or "Looks like very good news" IIRC

[Pat Payne]

So has anyone really read this https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/266758-harmony-gold-lawsuit/

It makes me worry how many souls PGI sacrificed for this victory.

The language of the actual "communique" (for lack of a better term) and the actual stipulation does seem to be a "HG is going to leave us alone for the next three years" sort of thing, no souls sacrificed to Phil, Lord of Insufficient Light needed. That the actual settlement is sealed is annoying, but not an immediate cause for panic (outside of HG using sealed settlements to pull shenanigans in the past)

[Kos]

 :D OH YEAH!!!

This is fantastic news. Let the 'Year of Battletech' roll on and much rejoicing comence!

[ColBosch]

Frankly, if there was a behind-the-scenes agreement, it doesn't matter.

[Raeven]

PGI et. al. would need to license them from Big West/Studio Nue.

That would be the safest bet to prevent a lawsuit from BW in the future, even for the redesigns.

[Raeven]

It's hard to know what the two companies were saying. Perhaps IMR was going to help pay for some of the cost for PGI. Perhaps Topps had stepped in and asked the lawyers for PGI to take the lead on it. There are innumerable things that could be going on that we will probably never know.

It's interesting that so many people though HG was winning because there was a settlement in process. As we see, it turns out HG was probably losing and knew it and in an attempt to avoid getting crushed by a counter claim or to damage other possible claims, they got out.

It's possible PGI made sure IMR was covered out of niceness. Could also be plans to assist one another with products. (MWO images in Catalyst books? No. PGI using Catalyst images in the upcoming Mechwarrior 5, a lot more likely)

I hope we see a statement from Catalyst at some point acknowledging what happened and discussing when the classics will be restarted.

I still contend that they are a shared IP.  Even though they are separate from each other in media type, I don't believe you can have such similar artwork (and frankly, Catalyst has already started using the MWO redesigns of a lot of 'Mechs in the new publications) without a shared copyright.  This entire lawsuit taught us that much.

[Kidd]

So has anyone really read this https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/266758-harmony-gold-lawsuit/

It makes me worry how many souls PGI sacrificed for this victory.

Given that PGI seems to be the one dictating terms to the (ostensible) license holders, to the point that the settlement even favours a 3rd party (CGL) which most of us had thought to be highly unlikely to happen, I don't think PGI is that indebted to the Friends from the Other Side.

****** it, I really hadn't expected this outcome, YEAR OF BATTLETECH indeed!

[ColBosch]

That would be the safest bet to prevent a lawsuit from BW in the future, even for the redesigns.

No. The original designs are gone forever, and this lawsuit has settled the issue of the redesigned Classics. I should also note that this lawsuit was not about the Unseen, and the Moderators have specifically banned discussion of them from this thread. So stop bringing them up.

I still contend that they are a shared IP.  Even though they are separate from each other in media type, I don't believe you can have such similar artwork (and frankly, Catalyst has already started using the MWO redesigns of a lot of 'Mechs in the new publications) without a shared copyright.  This entire lawsuit taught us that much.

No. Ever since FASA sold off the tabletop rights to BattleTech, the IP has been split. The tabletop and video game versions do not share the redesigns. They are similar, but they are not identical. The copyrights are absolutely held by different companies.

Now, Jordan Weisman has said that he'd like to reunite the IP, but that would require Microsoft giving up something they own, so ain't gonna happen.

[pheonixstorm]

I still contend that they are a shared IP.  Even though they are separate from each other in media type, I don't believe you can have such similar artwork (and frankly, Catalyst has already started using the MWO redesigns of a lot of 'Mechs in the new publications) without a shared copyright.  This entire lawsuit taught us that much.

Likely because the art style of the two artists involved is very similar. It isn't the exact same art.

[Trystan Thorne]

Hopefully Judge Zilly will sign tomorrow.

If this really means that not only can the already redesigned Mechs be used, but also new ones created, than it is a fantastic day.
Can't wait to see the remaining unseen if it's really the result I hope it is (right now I feel like 12 again).
And just to be clear, I'm talking about redesigns, I never want to see the original art in anything BattleTech related.

Probably will buy a Mechpack for MWO later as a thank you to PGI.

[JustinKase]

Hopefully Judge Zilly will sign tomorrow.

...

Probably will buy a Mechpack for MWO later as a thank you to PGI.

My thoughts exactly - on both counts!  As soon as they post a Stinger/Wasp/Valkyrie/etc - it is as good as purchased in gratitude :D

[Major Headcase]

Wow. Talk about luck!!
I got a surprise $500 this morning, offered a new, better paying job over lunch, and then read THIS news when I get home!! 😁
I picked the BEST day to buy a bottle of Jamesons Black on the way home!! 😂😂😂😂
...
..
.
So, where my plastic Marauder??? Weeeeeeeeeeell??
😉

[victor_shaw]

First this is a great day for Battletech in all its forms :thumbsup:
The most likely reason for this outcome is HG protecting their rights to sue other companies over the Robotech images.
If this had either been Dismissed with prejudice by the judge or had gone to court HG was probably going to lose that right.
As for the IMR/CGL being included, I think I said this might happen earlier in these post and got told I was wrong  ;D
As to why PGI would go to bat for CGL, PGI is using mechs and information for Battletech that is owned by Topps (with minor redesigns), so any negative effect on CGL could filter down to PGI in the long run.
The judge will probably sign it tomorrow, as unless he has some issues with the agreement that the parties reached I'm sure the judge is as eager to end this as everyone else.

[ANS Kamas P81]

As for the IMR/CGL being included, I think I said this might happen earlier in these post and got told I was wrong  ;D

In fairness that required a legal miracle since PGI had absolutely no obligation to make sure they were included.  Fortunately, legal miracle seems to be the phrase of the day.

[Feenix74]

This news has made my month (it has been a crazy month)  8)

And lo, the legal team of PGI was immortalized as drivers of the Marauders, warhammer s, wasps, Valkyries and Phoenix hawks :)

SECONDED!  :thumbsup:

And Judge Zilly should be immortalized as an Atlas pilot (as he can tell the difference between an Atlas and an unseen).

And they should each be given their own Bloodname in the ilClan and a verse in the Remembrance of the ilClan. Seyla!

[DOC_Agren]

Great news
 :clap: :rockon: :yikes: :excited: :smitten:

[PreacherPatriot1776]

That would be the safest bet to prevent a lawsuit from BW in the future, even for the redesigns.

Big West isn't a sue happy company and BT has a history with them through Japanese Battletech. Also, there wouldn't be a license for the redesigns as they are derivatives.

[omega2010]

OH YEAH... THAT ARCHER! :rockon: :clap: :smitten: :beer:

Seriously, I've been missing the Archer from the Battletech HBS game.  The Catapult is a decent LRM boat but I just love the Archer (or the Longbow) handling that role.

[Raeven]

Big West isn't a sue happy company and BT has a history with them through Japanese Battletech. Also, there wouldn't be a license for the redesigns as they are derivatives.

Derivatives are a violation of copyright.  The safest path would be a license to make derivatives of the original images.

[Fat Guy]

Now that this crap seems to be settled, I can't wait to see our retcon Crusader!   :thumbsup:

[abou]

Derivatives are a violation of copyright.  The safest path would be a license to make derivatives of the original images.

1. These aren't derivatives.
2. They are simply inspired by what they are replacing. Although close, they are different enough that they should be safe.
3. BW/SN and the BattleTech IP have historically had a good relationship and I see no reason for this to suddenly sour. After all, the former actually helped develop the Japanese BattleTech release.
4. Macross has had so many new series that the old images practically aren't even used anymore.
5. BW/SN would have to reach across the Pacific to pursue anything legal. These are different markets and BW has no direct distribution of Macross over here. There is no way for these IPs to be in opposition of each other.
6. It's a moot point and no one in the know seems nervous about such legal actions.

EDIT:
7. From what I can tell, Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko were fine with the art in the 25th anniversary art book, which is why they were included in the first place. I still have the original PDF of it. It was set to go to print until Harmony Gold said threatened legal action despite the original companies being okay with it.

[pheonixstorm]

Derivatives are a violation of copyright.  The safest path would be a license to make derivatives of the original images.

Not true, you can have a copyrightable derivative which is legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

[Crimson Dawn]

1. These aren't derivatives.
2. They are simply inspired by what they are replacing. Although close, they are different enough that they should be safe.
3. BW/SN and the BattleTech IP have historically had a good relationship and I see no reason for this to suddenly sour. After all, the former actually helped develop the Japanese BattleTech release.
4. Macross has had so many new series that the old images practically aren't even used anymore.
5. BW/SN would have to reach across the Pacific to pursue anything legal. These are different markets and BW has no direct distribution of Macross over here. There is no way for these IPs to be in opposition of each other.
6. It's a moot point and no one in the know seems nervous about such legal actions.

EDIT:
7. From what I can tell, Big West/Studio Nue and Tatsunoko were fine with the art in the 25th anniversary art book, which is why they were included in the first place. I still have the original PDF of it. It was set to go to print until Harmony Gold said threatened legal action despite the original companies being okay with it.

I hate to say it but when I first saw these new versions of these classic designs I thought they were fanart for Robotech.  That does not fill me with great confidence if BW ever did decide to do anything about which thankfully they do not seem interested in pursuing.  Of course them being so similar in look is why I like them so much more than the previous attempt at remaking the art on those designs which I am not so much a fan of (sorry to those that like those designs but they are not for me).

[Frabby]

In fairness that required a legal miracle since PGI had absolutely no obligation to make sure they were included.  Fortunately, legal miracle seems to be the phrase of the day.

I never understood that position.
Nobody here seriously thought that the defendants were in any real trouble based on the merits of the case.
And, as has now been demonstrated, nothing legally prevents a settlement to extend to/benefit a third party, even if that party is in default. A legal settlement is a contract the parties simply have to agree on to drop the lawsuit. And obligation or not, it obviously made sense to cover IMR's situation as well.

As for Big West and the 25 Years artbook, remember that IMR had secured/recovered the rights to most (but not all) original unseen. At this point, the greater part of all unseen imagery is unseen purely as a cautionary measure because CGL don't want to use out-of-house art anymore.

[Crimson Dawn]

Not true, you can have a copyrightable derivative which is legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

True though you then have to argue whether the changes are enough to make it an actual protected derivative work and even if it is are you going to be able to afford to defend that in court if BW was to ever decide to come after it?  A case against that would be harder I would imagine since unlike HG BW actually owns the originals so their case would not be like this case and could come down to having someone or a group of people having to decide whether this is a protected derivative or not.  I do not know if I like the odds on that one as the reason why I like these new designs is due to how close they are to the originals. 

Thankfully BW does not seem to be as awful as say HG so it may be moot.  Also if they already secured the rights this whole discussion could also be moot based on that as well.