Is All the love the LB-10 ACs Get worth it given new AC-10 ammo?

[Dayton3]

It seems like for decades now,   BTers have had a love affair with the LB-10X autocannons.    Mainly due to the ability to load up on cluster rounds.

These 'mech shotguns of course are effective against other 'mechs,  aircraft,  armored vehicles, and infantry/elementals which naturally makes them popular.

But doesn't some of the newer AC ammo do just about the same thing?   If so then why bother with an LB class cannon at all?

[Diamondshark]

Cost and convenience, especially when using standard TW rules. And no ammo sandblasts as well as LBX cluster ammo.

[Firesprocket]

The options available to standard auto cannons aren't meant to replace LB, or for that matter, any other auto cannons.  They give a few more options to the older weapon systems and the newer light ACs ot make up for their limits in range and/or abilities of the other Ultra and LB-X.  If you want the LB like effect you are best to stick with that type of gun or the newer Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle.

[Railan Sradac]

LB 10-Xs are still superior for many battlefield utilities. The LB-X has superior range, and with cluster shot it has better to-hit against flyers compared to an AC/10 with flak, and the multiple cluster hits are much more devastating to VTOLs. Cluster ammo also disables vehicles very rapidly and effectively, and can seek for criticals against a battered opponent. On the other hand. AC/10s can use flechette ammo, which is one of the few anti-infantry attacks that have good range, and precision ammo which is golden against speedy targets.

Also worth noting is that a 10-X is a ton lighter than the AC/10 and usually only needs two tons of ammunition, while an AC/10 should have at least three if it wants to make use of specialty ammo.

[Colt Ward]

Also do not forget the 3 hex longer range on the 10s.

Precision just makes the AC/10 a pulse laser with 75% of the Clan version's range and the same damage . . . as long as its aimed at something getting at least a +2 off movement.

AP . . . honestly I have never seen it really used.  I imagine someone somewhere does but I have not run up against them.  I think it would make more sense if the AC/2 and AC/5 had a easier time than heavier cannons.  And when it comes to a choice most folks I have played against use Precision to fill the Saladin's ammo bins rather than AP because if they are going to lose 60% of the shots per ton, they want them to hit.  Also the theory that if a AC/20 hits its usually enough to force its own crit roll.

[SCC]

Do note that standard AC's are still plenty inviting to infantry, given that they can already sand blast and they can double tap things like AP rounds.

[JenniferinaMAD]

That short range of 6 for LB10Xs (with no minimum either) opens up quite a few possibilities:
-It means you can get better numbers than that MPL/ML/SRM jumper at his own max range compared to anything by precision AC10 rounds.
-It means enemy ECM has to get within your short range to affect you.
-Your short range is longer than a lot of mechs can jump (5 jumpers are popular).
-It has better range bands than L/H/Standard PPCs (due to no minimum).

Additionally: It's a ton lighter, it does a point less heat and cluster ammo is more generally useful. It's great against vehicles, aeros, flyers, good for crit work on mechs and even alright against infantry.
Meanwhile AC10 ammo has to pick what it's good against and is then generally poor against almost anything else (doing less damage).

You're never badly off with an LB10X. With the AC10, you have to bring the right ammo and you're not getting the most out of an already aging gun.

[Colt Ward]

Do note that standard AC's are still plenty inviting to infantry, given that they can already sand blast and they can double tap things like AP rounds.

 . . . what ammo allows infantry to sandblast but not mechs on AC/10s?

The only way to double tap is to use the rapid-fire rules (which are TacOps and optional), and if you do that with AP rounds you run into other problems like you have used (if AP rounds) 40% of the ammo in a ton for that single chance.

[SCC]

. . . what ammo allows infantry to sandblast but not mechs on AC/10s?

Infantry squads main attack already sand blasts, and given that they can't load slug into LB-X's it's not really that attractive.

The only way to double tap is to use the rapid-fire rules (which are TacOps and optional), and if you do that with AP rounds you run into other problems like you have used (if AP rounds) 40% of the ammo in a ton for that single chance.

Just like field guns them selves. And if you expect and infantry squad to last more then 3 rounds pumping AP rounds out of a pair of AC/20s more power to you.

[Colt Ward]

Sure but the Rapid Fire rules are optional but I admit I did think you were speaking of them in for more than just infantry.

[bakija]

But doesn't some of the newer AC ammo do just about the same thing?   If so then why bother with an LB class cannon at all?

LB 10-X is lighter, generates less heat, and has better range than a standard AC 10. Cluster ammo gets the solid -1 to hit and flings damage all over the target (giving more chances to score magic crits). Most specialty ammo for regular ACs weighs twice as much as regular ammo, and most of it isn't very good (Precision is good, but probably not so much that it is worth losing half your ammo; Armor Piercing is horrible; Flak is good if you need to use Flak on something, but situational).

[garhkal]

It may be lighter, but it takes up more crits.

[Caedis Animus]

The LB-10X takes up one less crit though? How much more space could the 6-crit LB10X take up compared to the 7-crit AC10?

[pheonixstorm]

Infantry squads main attack already sand blasts, and given that they can't load slug into LB-X's it's not really that attractive.
Just like field guns them selves. And if you expect and infantry squad to last more then 3 rounds pumping AP rounds out of a pair of AC/20s more power to you.

Wrong, infantry are not limited by ammo and can load multiple ammo types depending on the number of guns. Plus infantry can use rapid fire with NO penalty so they can RF normal/specialty AC ammo with no chance of jamming or explosion.

Only Aero are limited to cluster for LB. When it comes to AC fun infantry are top notch provided they have proper cover to tack advantage of their full ammo allotment.

Almost forgot, they can also have each gun (2 in the case of the 10) fire different ammo types.

[Colt Ward]

How do they not jam or blow if using rapid fire rules?  Somehow their ACs are different?

[pheonixstorm]

Ok, seems I was incorrect about the cluster ammo. Seems that is the only ammo limit they have... they can still use multiple types of other ammos.

Its all in the magic rules. Don't ask why.. you might get some contortionist answer as a question.

p311

Ultra and Rotary Autocannon Field Guns are immune to jamming or fire control failure effects...Gauss-based Field Guns are immune to weapon explosion effects

I asked about rapid fire in the TacOps forum and it should be included in the above. http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48026.msg1110586#msg1110586

Looking back on the question I think it may need a clarification on the exploding part but I am pretty sure it doesn't jam or explode.

[CDAT]

As others have said, lighter weight, less critical space, longer range compared to the standard AC. Now yes the standard ac can use specialty ammo, but most of them use double the space weight (for same number of shots) so you are using the heavier weapon and making it heavier, the one that takes more critical space and again making it use even more and all this with reduced range. I do see a lot of love for the light AC's, but with a little searching you can find lots of people over the years talking about how the standard (well all but standard the most) autocannons do not compare well with other weapons, the LB-10 I think (and may well be wrong on this) just compares the best, so gets the most love.

[bakija]

It may be lighter, but it takes up more crits.

???

AC10: 7 crit slots, plus ammo.

LBX AC-10: 6 crit slots, plus ammo.

LBX AC-10 is a ton lighter, takes up one fewer crit slot, gets to use cluster ammo, has better range, generates less heat than the standard AC10. The LBX AC-10 is almost a totally reasonable gun to use, relative to comparable energy weapons. The cluster rounds are what pushes it over the top into something that you would pick intentionally, more often than not, I'd imagine (or at least it is for me).