Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST

[jasonf]

Ok, so here are the most of the remaining potential errata I have for 'Mechs. It's all pretty much for Jihad-era and earlier availabilities. I've tried to group them based on similar issues.

Comstar/WOB stuff based on Battle of Tukayyid - Supplemental lists (pp. 12-13)
1. Based on this source, Comstar (and also WoB from Clan Invasion forward?) should have the following 'Mechs available in Late SW (renaissance), Clan Invasion, and likely Civil War and Jihad, too:
PNT-8Z Panther: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2424/panther-pnt-8z
SHD-2Hb Shadow Hawk: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2902/shadow-hawk-shd-2hb
WVR-7M Wolverine: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3576/wolverine-wvr-7m   [Clan Invasion, Civil War, and Jihad only, and WoB already has it available]
CPLT-C1b Catapult: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/480/catapult-cplt-c1b

2. JKR-8T Jackrabbit: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1656/jackrabbit-jkr-8t
TR3075 fluff suggests Comstar should have it for Late SW (renaissance) and Clan Invasion eras. ["ComStar inherited these when they captured Terra, but they used the Jackrabbit sparingly. The few that were deployed on Tukayyid fared poorly against the Clans,..."]

3. HSR-500-D Hussar: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1656/jackrabbit-jkr-8t
Pretty sure TR3050U has a typo and it is referring to the 500-D when it says the "600-D" (which doesn't exist) "has only been seen among WoB forces," Comstar should not have access to this variant (previous paragraph notes they use the 200-D and 400-D variants)


The next set of issues all relate to what's in the RAT tables in Historical: War of 3039 for the Draconis Combine. Not sure if any of this is still correct or was retcon'ed. I always remember the lore to be that Comstar gave Kurita mostly downgraded 'Mechs with a few accidental/overlooked exceptions, but the RATs in that book definitely have more than a few LosTech variants.
4. The following are available to the Draconis Combine in the Clan Invasion and Civil War eras but not the Late SW (renaissance) era (i.e. during the War of 3039). If the first two are correct, then Hist:Wo3039 suggests they should have them available in the Late SW (renaissance) era, too:
HSR-200-D Hussar: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1585/hussar-hsr-200-d
CHP-1N Champion: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/548/champion-chp-1n
LNC25-01 Lancelot: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1853/lancelot-lnc25-01
EXT-4D Exterminator: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1004/exterminator-ext-4d
GLT-3N Guillotine: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1338/guillotine-glt-3n
BL-6-KNT Black Knight: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/358/black-knight-bl-6-knt
BLR-2C Battlemaster: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/290/battlemaster-blr-2c
(this one actually comes from the Battlemaster fluff in RecGuide vol. 3 and in the original TR3050. Former lists it as Theodore Kurita's Wo3039 'Mech and latter list it as a Comstar logistical screw-up)

5. These two are not available to Kurita at all in the MUL, but based on Historical: War of 3039, they should have them at least in Late SW (renaissance), and likely in the next couple eras, too.
MCY-98 Mercury: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4624/mercury-mcy-98
MON-66 Mongoose: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2208/mongoose-mon-66

6. The WVN-5N Wyvern is also available to Kurita based on Historical: War of 3039, but is not available to them in either the Late SW (renaissance) or Clan Invasion eras. Based on this, it should be. It should probably also be available to Comstar in Early SW, Late SW (LosTech), and Late SW (renaissance) since it's the stock SLDF variant (and they're the ones who gave it to Kurita...)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3597/wyvern-wve-5n

7. HGN-732 Highlander: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1514/highlander-hgn-732
This one is available to Kurita in Late SW (renaissance), but not after. I didn't see anything to suggest that Kurita lost all of its Highlanders before the Clan Invasion, so it probably should be available in later eras like the other Comstar-supplied 'Mechs. Multiple sources suggest that the Late SW era availability is correct [Historical: War of 3039, TR3050U fluff, TR3039 fluff for Thug 10E]

8. STK-3K Sentinel: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2857/sentinel-stn-3k
Kurita has this variant available in the MUL from the end of the Star League throughout, but Historical: War of 3039 and Sentinel 3K fluff in TR3039 suggest that Kurita received both the -3K and -3M models as a new influx of the variant from Comstar, and only a handful existed in entire IS otherwise (presumably from Steiner production?)

9. I honestly cannot figure out if Kurita should have the CRB-27 Crab variant from 3035 forward (currently only has it from Clan Invasion forward): http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/716/crab-crb-27
It is not in the RAT tables in Historical: War of 3039, but... original TR3050 Crab fluff suggests the only difference between the SLDF CRB-27 and what was given to Kurita is comms equipment (so identical in game terms), and... TR3050U Crab fluff suggests that the Kurita variants (along with Clan, Comstar, and WoB) are from the original SLDF production runs. So maybe they should?

The next bunch are to give the St. Ives Compact availability some love. I'm wondering if a lot of these got lost because they only RAT I could find for them is merged into the RAT table for Liao in FM: Capellan Confederation, and they have no listing of their own in Combat Ops.
10. Based on the RAT table in FM: Capellan Confederation, SIC should have the following 'Mechs available in the Clan Invasion and Civil War eras:
CTX-3D Cataphract: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/469/cataphract-ctf-3d
STR-3C Striker: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3094/striker-stc-2c   [correctly has it available in Late SW (renaissance)]
STR-3D Striker: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3095/striker-stc-2d
AS7-S Atlas: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/148/atlas-as7-s
AS7-K Atlas: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/144/atlas-as7-k
DVS-2 Devastator: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/894/devastator-dvs-2  [might also want to remove availability for Liao in Clan Invasion era. Only DVS-2s they should have are the ones they inherit from SIC after 3063?]

11. CRD-4D Crusader: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/755/crusader-crd-4d  (or CRD-4L)
There isn't a source to justify this one, but the CRD-4D and CRD-4L are identical variants, but use field refit kits, and SIC is bordered by both factions, so it would make sense they'd have one of these available in the Clan Invasion and Civil War eras (most likely the CRD-4D variant given their trade relations with FedCom)

Ok, that's probably enough for now! I have one more (much smaller) batch, but I'll wait to see what you guys say for these before posting those, since they have some gray areas in availability like some of the Mechs above.

[GreekFire]

That's a ton of stuff! Thanks for finding all of these things for us to mull over.
I'm going to offer my perspective on things in sections.


NOT AN ERROR/FIXED
1. -- see below.

2. -- the very sparse and brief usage of the design on Tukayyid isn't enough to warrant era availability. As there's no "cached" label on the MUL, extinct in this case simply represents them being in storage and not being in use.

3. -- Hussar 500-D availabilities have been adjusted.

4. -- The Exterminator, Guillotine, and BattleMaster have been adjusted. The others remain untouched. Kong Interstellar, though only restarting manufacturing of the Black Knight BL-6 in 3065, did provide refits to bring BL-7's back to their original Star League standards (as per HB:HM).

5. -- The Mercury hasn't had its LSW eras detailed yet, but it is on our to-do list. The Mongoose is fine as-is; its numbers at the time weren't high enough to warrant inclusion on the MUL.

6. -- The numbers of Wyvern 5N's within the DC weren't high enough to warrant inclusion on the MUL up until resumption of production on Errai (and the DC purchasing of said machines) during the Civil War era.

7. -- this is due to proportions, unfortunately. The Ghost Regiments fielded "relatively few" and "a handful", which then became an insignificant number due to the large numbers pumped out by StarCorps starting in 3057. The Combine, for whatever reason, apparently chose not to buy further models at that time.

8. -- As you noted, a handful did exist in the IS before the influx of ComStar Sentinels. This handful would have been split between the LC and the DC, which is why it is available to them before ComStar gifts their horde of machines.

9. -- Crab 27 should be available to the DC in the LSW-R era. Availabilities for the other eras are correct.

10. -- The SIC did even better than the Liaos and the Davions: they managed to get their hands on the vastly superior mass-produced CRD-5M.

11. -- These will not be adjusted. Devastators found in Capellan forces are largely the result of salvage, and from my research are likely a nod to the McCaron's Armored Cavalry sourcebook.

[Sartris]

I would note that units like the Wyvern 5N and others that completely lack Late Succession Wars Availabilities have not been given any because they will also be allocated to the Home Clans (or declared extinct if they either did not go along on EXODUS or were scrapped / upgraded during the Golden Century). This process is ongoing.

[jasonf]

Thanks guys, this helps clarify things. Just so I have the Wyvern 5N right...

1. Pre-Clan Invasion Comstar availability is on the to-do list
2. WVE-5N produced at Errai from 3064 forward, concurrent with WVE-10N from 3065 forward
3. DC received too few WVE-5Ns to matter pre-3064

Also, is it right that if a faction is the only one to have a unit, and they only have a "handful," "few," etc., they are listed with the "Unique" tag, but if they only have a "handful" and someone else has more, they are not listed?

Finally, since we're on the Wyvern, I had one more for it on my remaining list. Should WoB have access to the WVE-10-N during the Civil War era? TR3050U suggests it's exclusive to Comstar, and WoB didn't take Errai until 3069.
WVE-10N: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3596/wyvern-wve-10n

[Sartris]

Also, is it right that if a faction is the only one to have a unit, and they only have a "handful," "few," etc., they are listed with the "Unique" tag, but if they only have a "handful" and someone else has more, they are not listed?

the unique tag is for units that exist in very small numbers like XTRO prototypes or custom rides. on rare occasions, they may later be produced in greater numbers like Jaime Wolf's Archer. no listing does not preclude a unit from appearing in a certain faction, but it does not meet the standard of multiple examples in multiple formations. if simply having one put a unit on a faction's roster, virtually everything on the MUL would be on the General lists.

[GreekFire]

Update: the Enforcer III 6Ma was in error. Its introductory date has been changed to 3065.
The Centurion 9-Da was simultaneously given the same introductory date as well.

Additionally, the Panther 8Z has been made available to ComStar during the Clan Invasion era. It can be assumed that they brought them out of a cache or units or refit 9Rs to its standards. However, these 8Zs are considered to have all been destroyed or refit to other standards by the Civil War era. The other Star League-era variants (the SHD-2Hb, WVR-7M, etc) were not fielded in large enough numbers to warrant inclusion on the MUL.

The other points are still in discussion.

[jasonf]

Ok, thanks! This all helps clarify things a lot.

Going back my original list for the #4 (War of 3039 DC availabilities), based on your guys' responses, you can ignore the issues for:
HSR-200-D Hussar -- (SLDF version, likely given in too small numbers to DC in 3030s, then bought from Coventry MW)
CHP-1N Champion -- (SLDF version, likely given in too small numbers to DC in 3030s, then bought from Bergen Ind)
LNC25-01 -- (SLDF version, likely given in too small numbers to DC in 3030s, then bought from Krupp AW, or even produced at LAW?)

But then, it isn't clear if the following are ok, or if DC should *not* have them from the Clan Invasion era forward. All three are also the original SLDF variants (and presumably given in too small numbers in the 3030s), and all three did not have their production restarted (only as different variants):
EXT-4D Exterminator -- I can't find anything about new production (and it isn't clear if the EXT-5E variant was a new production line or just a refit). Nothing in the TROs suggests Kallon Ind restarted production, either
GLT-3N Guillotine -- From what I can tell, only new production was for the GLT-5M in 3049   
BL-6-KNT Black Knight -- From what I can tell, only new production was for the BL-12-KNT in 3063 (Robinson), 3065 (Kong)

I think the BLR-2C may still be legit, though.

[Daryk]

Philiosphy question: If they're not on the MUL, do they "exist" in a canon way?  ???

To be clear, I have no dog in this fight, but I know there is more than one poster on this forum who only plays with "canon" units...

[Sartris]

The first line of canonicity is existing in a canon source. The MUL simply exists as a centralized index of canon units.

In order to be used as a canon unit in a game, it requires a published record sheet. There are obviously gaps between those two realities (eg 3150 NTNU). Regardless, they exist even if you can’t technically play a game with them - but that isn’t our mandate.

If someone thinks there is a unit missing from the MUL, it should be reported. You’ll notice there are some very specific one-offs like support vehicles mentioned in one FASA novel so there is no threshold for “too obscure”

[Daryk]

Why don't you have a Battlemaster in this forum, good sir?  You certainly deserve one!  :thumbsup:

[Empyrus]

Why don't you have a Battlemaster in this forum, good sir?  You certainly deserve one!  :thumbsup:

Should be more like a roomba icon. :P

[Empyrus]

If someone thinks there is a unit missing from the MUL, it should be reported. You’ll notice there are some very specific one-offs like support vehicles mentioned in one FASA novel so there is no threshold for “too obscure”

This reminds me...
Necromo Nightmare drone/robot 'Mechs, the Raven RVN-3Ld, Vindicator VND-3Ld, Cataphract CTF-3Dd and Awesome AWS-9Md.
I believe the product, despite being a Halloween freebie, is actually canon* and Necromo events and stuff is referred to elsewhere (like Interstellar Operations).

* https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Necromo_Nightmare
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ask-the-lead-developers/necromo-nightmare-canonicity/

[Sartris]

Should be more like a roomba icon. :P

A nova cat on a roomba

[Empyrus]

A nova cat on a roomba

I was thinking a roomba with the Urbie's legs...

[jasonf]

Ok, here's the last of what I have. It's all pretty random.

1. FLE-4 Flea: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1140/flea-fle-4
Should probably be available to Wolf's Dragoons in LSW-R and Clan Invasion, according to the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook (it has stats for both FLE-4 and FLE-15).

2. I think the ASN-21 Assassin should just use the IS-General list for the LSW-LT, LSW-R, and Clan Invasion eras (I'm assuming the deletion of Liao from Civil War and later is legit). The only faction missing over that period is SIC, and they probably should inherit some from Liao from 3030. Plus, Combat Ops has the ASN-21 listed as available to all in the IS and Periphery. Similarly, ASN-23 should probably be available to the IS General list for the Clan Invasion era and maybe the Civil War era. It's listed as such in Combat Ops, and TR3050U states that "the majority" of the ASN-23s are in the Trinity Alliance (in 3070), implying at least some others have them in notable numbers. It also suggests they are more common than the ASN-21 from the Civil War era forward, and that they really didn't start becoming a rare sight until 3058. They're also listed in the Comstar availability list in the Battle of Tukayyid-Supplemental,. Finally, it's like one of the easiest LosTech field refits out there, so would make sense that it'd be available to any IS faction that had a decent number of ASN-21s.
ASN-21 Assassin: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/127/assassin-asn-21
ASN-23 Assassin: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/128/assassin-asn-23

3. It looks like the Apollo-1M has its faction availability switched for some factions, based on the TR3055U fluff. It should be available to WoB in Clan Invasion and Civil War eras (#2 user behind the FWL, and #2 buyer until 3057), and it is embargoed for the LAAF (until 3067), AFFS (until 3067), and CCAF (ongoing). Since it comes out in 3054, though, it could have theoretically been sold to the AFFC from 3054-57, and to the CCAF from 3054 to the FWL-CC cooling of relations (3063?). But adding WoB seems needed either way. And if WoB is added to the -1M, perhaps it should also be added to the three field refits mentioned in TR3055U, too?
APL-1M Apollo: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/54/apollo-apl-1m
APL-1R Apollo: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/55/apollo-apl-1r
APL-2S Apollo: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/56/apollo-apl-2s
APL-3T Apollo: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/57/apollo-apl-3t

4. Should Kurita have the JM6-S JagerMech in the LSW-R era? TR3039 seems to imply they stopped producing it, but TR3050U (in the JM6-DD fluff) implies they continue production of the JM6-S from 3040-50: "Following the Fourth Succession War, Kallon Weapon Industries negotiated a licensing agreement that allowed Independence Weaponry on Quentin to also build new JagerMechs for the AFFS. Unfortunately, that world was lost to the Draconis Combine during the War of 3039, sending JagerMechs flowing into the rapidly expanding Kurita military." Not to mention, it seems odd that they would just shut down a production line because they don't like a model, not replace it with anything even though they have to replace war losses, then start producing its upgraded variant 10 years later.
JM6-S JagerMech: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1670/jagermech-jm6-s

5. Should WoB have the GRM-R-PR29 Grim Reaper in the Clan Invasion and Civil War eras? TR3055U suggests that both Comstar and WoB field them, and that WOB doesn't phase out the -PR29 variant until 3067. They are also in the WoB RAT tables in FM: Comstar. 
GRM-R-PR29 Grim Reaper: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1328/grim-reaper-grm-r-pr29

6. Finally(!), is the Lyran Alliance accidentally listed instead of the FRR for the DRG-7N Dragon in the Civil War and Jihad eras? I couldn't find a source to confirm, but I think the DRG-7N is a field refit, and all other Dragon variants (Intro-tech and LosTech) are available to DC and FRR, so it seems more likely that someone clicked the wrong blue faction icon than that I missed some one-off Steiner-Kurita tech exchange from the 3060s.
DRG-7N Dragon: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5450/dragon-drg-7n

Hope that helps, and thanks for all your work maintaining this thing!

[nckestrel]

The DRG-7N being LC is intentional. It is based an computer game variant that was o my in Lyran use.  No clue why, how, etc has bender been made, but it’s definitely Lyran. 

[GreekFire]

1. -- The Dragoons lost their limited number of Flea 4s before their first and second supply run. These were replenished with the Flea 15, 16, and 17 models.

2. -- The MUL is good for showing availability, not so good at showing rarity. The ASN-23 outnumbered the ASN-21 by 3071, but those were concentrated in the Trinity Alliance region due to the Capellan production of the design--while the few ASN-21s were scattered throughout the Sphere. As many of the ASN-21s were owned by MechWarrior families, these families didn't always have the funds or political clout to upgrade their designs before the end of the Jihad.

3. The Word of Blake should have it, definitely.

4. The fluff is clear on this matter as well. Fixed.

5. Ditto. The fluff supports significant Word of Blake usage. Fixed.

[Empyrus]

Very minor issue: Clan Burrock icon seems to have white background instead of transparent one.

[Sartris]

the wolverine logo was suffering from the same issue. both are now have transparent backgrounds exactly as the Great Father intended

[jasonf]

1. -- The Dragoons lost their limited number of Flea 4s before their first and second supply run. These were replenished with the Flea 15, 16, and 17 models.

2. -- The MUL is good for showing availability, not so good at showing rarity. The ASN-23 outnumbered the ASN-21 by 3071, but those were concentrated in the Trinity Alliance region due to the Capellan production of the design--while the few ASN-21s were scattered throughout the Sphere. As many of the ASN-21s were owned by MechWarrior families, these families didn't always have the funds or political clout to upgrade their designs before the end of the Jihad.

3. The Word of Blake should have it, definitely.

4. The fluff is clear on this matter as well. Fixed.

5. Ditto. The fluff supports significant Word of Blake usage. Fixed.

Good to know!  :thumbsup:

The DRG-7N being LC is intentional. It is based an computer game variant that was o my in Lyran use.  No clue why, how, etc has bender been made, but it’s definitely Lyran.

I think I might call this one the "SturmDragon" variant from now on then.

[Empyrus]

Julian's Templar III TLR2-J "Arthur" from Shattered Fortress is missing from MUL.

[Sartris]

Does anyone have a page reference for it?

[Empyrus]

Shattered Fortress has the record sheet on page 121 (PDF), ie the final page before cover. Doesn't have TRO-style entry.

EDIT Or is that 120? Don't think covers should count as pages.

[Sartris]

thanks. If it gives a description of any kind that distinguishes how it’s custom we copy the passage into the internal notes

[Empyrus]

thanks. If it gives a description of any kind that distinguishes how it’s custom we copy the passage into the internal notes

What, like that it is not an OmniMech (despite based on one) and sports cockpit command console among other stuff?

[Sartris]

Those count as important considerations, yes

[Sartris]

all image links on the website (except 3085 infantry, which is on my list) should link to the MUL IMGBB account. please report any images you find that link to amazon aws.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Horned Owl 6 and 7 have availability from early republic on. In the text blurb in the rec guide (pg6, rec guide 11) it says the 6 wasn’t put into production until 3132. I assume the 7 is similar as it mentions it being based on the same extra armor.

They both have proper introduction dates, just expanded availability.

[GreekFire]

Horned Owl 6 and 7 have availability from early republic on. In the text blurb in the rec guide (pg6, rec guide 11) it says the 6 wasn’t put into production until 3132. I assume the 7 is similar as it mentions it being based on the same extra armor.

They both have proper introduction dates, just expanded availability.

Thanks for pointing that out. Fixed!

[Empyrus]

Missing 'Mechs report (unless this is already on your to-do list):
Thunderbolt TDR-5L, introduction date 2823.
Thunderbolt TDR-5LS, introduction date sometime before 2850.
Both are downgrades of the Royal Thunderbolt.
TRO-style entry in Second Succession War, page 116.
No record sheets exist.