Sell me on: acrylic paint...

[Werewolf]

'lo folks!

Got a question to all the miniature painting artists on the boards...
I've so far used enamels of the Revell/Monogram line of colors.
Good thing about them is that cleaning miniatures up after mishaps is a charm with acetone.
However, bad thing is they somehow clog fine details on my miniatures and I wondered if that wasn't that much of a
problem if I'd change to water-soluble acrylic paints...
Any pros and contras and hints on what to use, or am I even the only one to have used enamels on my precioussss CBT miniatures?

Regards,
Tom

[greatsarcasmo]

It sounds as if the paint is to thick--a problem you'll likely come across with acrylics as well. Add some  thinner to the paint and you should see improvement.
That said, it becomes a stinky process: as if the paint wasn't bad enough, adding in thinner makes it worse.  That is the true beauty of acrylics, their lack of offensive nature and lower toxicity.  Thinning them can be as simple as adding water or alcohol.

[Bedwyr]

Yup, agreed.  Painting miniatures of this size is not about painting them.  At it's best an exercise in "adding color" slowly and in layers.  Some people go to the extent of thinning paints to the very watery texture.  This allows the greatest amount of control over how and where the color gets added.  Enamels whether glossy (which doesn't look so good at this scale) or matte are too thick, obscure detail, and often just look gloppy in the end.  And thinning to the degree I'm thinking of, you're basically working with thick and dirty thinner more than you are with paint.

Water based acrylic is the way to go.  The best brushes (W&N 7) work best with water based.  Suddenly a whole wall of craft store material opens up to you (apple barrel, delta, americana, flow extender, bottles of medium) if you like.  Thinner's easy: $.50 for a gallon of distilled water.  Color analysis gets easier since a great number of websites and wargame painting resources are based around both Warhammer and Warmachine.  It's what CSO uses.  And it's what all the cool kids are doing these days.

That's my defense of acrylic, but it's not a total dis of enamel.  If you can get the consistency right, good results are to be had and you'd be a unique arteest in the same way Spaceman Spiff is with his N scale paint jobs and Worktroll is with his N scale kitbashes.  Just don't use glossy.

[agen2]

Acrylic need to be diluted with the right stuff ,enamel just turpentine,but I get good results also.
I prefer use water and ink and so on in the  mixture for my miniatures actually,but still using often the gloss silver frame enamel for some  spot with complicated crevices and for thr most exposed edges of the sculpt with a flat brush .Usually I tend to cover the glossy effect afterward with washes and color,and the under line glossy effect enriches the highlight.

[faraday77]

That is the true beauty of acrylics, their lack of offensive nature and lower toxicity.

This.

Everything else is knowing how the colours used behave if thinned and how thin you want/need them to be.

[Southern Coyote]

As someone who quite literally made the change from enamel to acrylic literally just a month ago, I can say with the utmost confidence that acrylic is the best paint for painting minis.  Enamel is too thick and unruly to do any kind of detail painting, and while acetone does strip it right off in a matter of minutes, it will also eat through most glues and molds. 

Trust me, you want to go with acrylic.  The paint goes on thinner and cleaner, but not so thin as to always warrant a second coat.  It goes on very smooth and clean, and the paint itself will last longer than enamels will.

[worktroll]

I made the shift about 8 years ago, and I'd never go back to enamels. Acrylics need to be watered down occasionally, but I have a few pots of Citadel paints 8 years old - trim colours I don't use a lot; each summer I add a little water, stir & shake well, & resume painting.

Plus the speed of drying means you can "production line" on a handful of minis - the first being ready to work on by the time you finish the last one.

Plus the non-toxicity, plus water for thinning or brush-cleaning. Plus more easily washed out of work shirts if you're silly enough to paint without changing (when that happens, take off the shirt, get it under lots of running cold water, scrub with a sleaning brush vigorously, and blame any faint stains on someone at work bumping into you with a plate of curry ...)

W.

[Top Sergeant]

Water based acrylics are cheap and easy to clean up.  :)

I do still have some enamels: the metallic colors (brass, bronze, gold, silver, steel). I think the enamel metallics look best.

[agen2]

Water based acrylics are cheap and easy to clean up.  :)

Actually enamel humbrol are sold x €1.30,compared to the cheapest acrylic cost of €2.50/3.00.

[Helaman]

Agen nailed the big reason... Its so much cheaper.

The results are so much better too but even if they were the same, the price would be a telling factor.

Also the variety is A1. You can go all the way from expensive art shop brands to cheap and nasty kids paints (though the results do vary at the low end). More variety for Acrylics than Oil.

[Top Sergeant]

Actually enamel humbrol are sold x €1.30,compared to the cheapest acrylic cost of €2.50/3.00.

I usually get 2 ounces for 80 cents.

[Werewolf]

This all so far sounds as if I'll be heading off to my local 'arte shoppe' (or to the enemy *lol*) and get me some of the less toxic stuff. :)
Thanks so far for the heads up on acrylic paint :)

[Mastergunz]

Werewolf, to expand on the obove comments know this about acrylics. Some brands are definently better than others. Here is what I use and why;

Metallics- GW metallics are top notch. They all go on smooth and can be thinned with water with no apparent lack of coverage.

Yellows and Reds- P3 makes by far the best reds in my exp. They are so smooth and the plastic 'pots' stop them from drying out and clogging dropper bottle tips.

Darker Base colors (Blue, Purple, Brown, etc...) cheap craft paint is fine for this. Check Applebarrel and Delta.

Black- GW, for some reason it's the best black I have ever used. ery smooth and not at all chalky.

White- Reaper Paints White Triad is by far the best out there. Comes with 3 different shades (shadow, Base and Highlight.)

If money isn't an issue I would stick with GW, P3 and Reaper. When it comes to hobby paints, you really do get what you pay for.

There are a lot of people out there who swear by 'Vallejo' brand but I have found them to be very hit or miss (Not by color mind you but by batch. Sometimes a certain color will work great from one dropper bottle and be terrible from the next) and so stear clear of them entirely. Hope that helps you out.

-Gunz

[Bedwyr]

Oh and he disses my paint.  ;D

No I agree that batch quality can vary but it's always been with regards to pigment/medium separation and thin-ness for me.  Once I get things properly mixed and the consistency right, I have never had trouble with a bottle.


But I'm not going to swear off the others either.  I highly highly highly recommend if you get GW or P3 pots is getting empty reaper dropper bottles and putting the paint (carefully) in there.  The bottles do a much better job of sealing the paint and you can better control how much you're doling out onto a palette and know exactly where your brush is going (vs accidentally loading the brush all the way down to the ferrule).

[Mastergunz]

Bedwyr, no offense intended my friend.  ;) I do agree with you on the empty dropper bottle though. They are just so much better. I get mine in bulk from http://www.abundanthealth4u.com/White_1_2_oz_Plastic_Dropper_Bottle_p/9197.htm

The plastic is very sturdy. Just put a dab of paint on the outside to distinguish color and your good to go.

-Gunz

[Charlie Tango]

I'll toss in a vote for Delta Ceramcoat acrylics as being the best of the "hobby" grades of acrylic paint.  While yes,  it is not as high of a grade as the P3 or the GW/Vallejo, I like the Delta for two reasons:  Inexpensive cost and wide variety of color selection. 

It means instead of mixing to get the color you want (and then having to replicate that mix to get that shade at a later point!) you can open a bottle,  thin and go.  For excample,  I have 23 separate shades of green in my paint rack, and all of those cost me no more than $1.29 each for any of the 2oz. bottles, and often much less.

[Xtrahmxwohld]

I think I'm in the minority here but I use  Floquil Polly-Scale and Testor's Model Masters acrylic paints.

I dabbled with Apple Barrel and Delta but I keep coming back to Polly-S and Model Masters.

[Cyttorak]

I agree fully with Charlie Tango's assessment. Just last night, I realized I didn't have the proper shade of green in my Vallejo arsenal, so I turned to my huge array of Delta Ceramcoat greens and found the proper color right away.

For a beginner, I would start with Delta and then move up. They are cheap, fair quality and have a huge assortment of colors.

[GunjiNoKanrei]

Nothing to add to the benefits of acrylic paint. I will just chime in for the ease of handling and getting the paint to do what you want it to. With acrylics it is very easy to control the dilution and with it the opacity of the paint.

The question which brand to use is a tricky one. You can see it already - ask ten people about their favourite brand and you get 10 different answers ... Personally I use a mix of different brands but absolutely having to chose I would say GW paints are easily the best (and yes, I even prefer their paint pots over dropper bottles) and stay away from Valejo Game Colors. Why? Well, they 'work' for me (or don't in case of VGC). I like the amount of pigment and the way the paint handles when diluted and the opacity just fit my way of painting and doing things.

Seriously, for trying out acrylics go for a brand that is readily available in your area. There is no 'bad' acrylic paint for what you want to do (as long as we are speaking about miniature brands and some craft or hobby paints).

[greatsarcasmo]

I love my Polly Scale! And MM acryl, it's just not really available around here, so Apple Barrel and enamels make up the difference. Not to mention all my left over enamels to go through...

[Werewolf]

Just how important is a halfway decent to good primer beforehand? I mean, I've heard of some that actually get grainy and/or flaky
and begin to literally soak in any liquid that comes near. Two of my guys here swear on spray-on primers, another says he'll always brush
it on... Opinions?

Was robbin' my bank account earlier today and will go shopping a bit this week-end.. ;)

[Cyttorak]

Hmmm. I can only speak about the brands I've used, so here goes:
-Tamiya had the finest "dots" when sprayed on and dried into the thinnest coat with full coverage, preserving all the detail. The big problem was that it tended to by hydrophobic; repelling the water-based paint I put on it. As a result, the paint had to be thicker than normal to stay in place, which defeated the benefit of the finer primer coat. It was also expensive and hard to find. I don't use it anymore.
- Krylon is what I use now. The general sort of metal primer you get at Home Depot and Lowe's. It is slightly thicker than Tamiya but is not hydrophobic, so the paint can be "normal" consistency. I use white when I can get it, or light gray otherwise as these make the colors brighter. I tend to do blacklining as a complete step in itself, so I don't mind not seeing the panel lines at first.
- I've heard some high-end painters swear by brush-on primer because it gave them greater control. I don't know why you would need "control" for something that was going to cover the entire mini...anyway, I find that it goes on thicker than spray primer, and I don't use it unless I need to touch up a small area where the original primer flaked off.

[greatsarcasmo]

I use Armory spray white. Or really cheap flat back from Farm and Fleet.
I tried using liquid gesso as a brush-on primer but had bad results. I got bubbles everywhere--but there are lots of awesome painters that swear by the stuff.

[Papabees]

Just how important is a halfway decent to good primer beforehand? I mean, I've heard of some that actually get grainy and/or flaky
and begin to literally soak in any liquid that comes near. Two of my guys here swear on spray-on primers, another says he'll always brush
it on... Opinions?

Was robbin' my bank account earlier today and will go shopping a bit this week-end.. ;)

I swear by Armory gray spray on primer. In my experience it goes on smoother than any I've used, and i've used alot. I live in the midwest and I'm told the humidity has some effect on the spray but its the only type I've ever been happy with.

[Xtrahmxwohld]

I love my Polly Scale! And MM acryl, it's just not really available around here, so Apple Barrel and enamels make up the difference. Not to mention all my left over enamels to go through...

I discovered recently that you can order directly from Testors  O0

[Charlie Tango]

For spray-on primer, I had been using Krylon's Fusion product (yes, it's for plastic but it gives the best and smoothest coverage that's I've found).

For brush-on primer,  I've been using Deco-Art's No-Prep metal paint.  You have to thin it down with their flow medium, but it works.  Problem is,  I don't think they make it anymore and it's getting very tough to find in stores.

[RacerX]

For primer I've been using Testor's Model Masters Acrylic Grey and White primer.  I will brush this on small projects and airbrush it on with big projects.  It works ok brushed on but looks really nice airbrushed.  The only problem I've found thus far is that low tack painters tape will peal it right off the model.  Saddly I fount his out the hard way.  I have used Krylon in the past and feel it would be a much better fit for plastic model kits.  For metal I have not run into any issues thus far.

I used to use Enamels.  I hated them.  For Acrylics I use pretty much everything that I have access too.  Though I do favor GW for certain colors and inks, P3 for mostly everything else, with some Liquitex Inks, Apple Barrel, Anitta's, Cermacoat, and Tester's Model Master Paints thrown in for good measure.  What I use really depends on what I'm doing and what effect I want.  I use the cheap stuff because I can get many many shades of a color for wicked cheap.  They come in handy when I'm too lazy to mix my colors.  However, I do find myself mixing more and more colors these days.  The P3s are nice because they thin well for airbrushing and go on smooth with a brush.  One of my local hobby shops won't touch the stuff because P3 generally won't do a single coat coverage.  In my opinion you don't want a single coat coverage unless you simply want a painted figure on the battlefield with the least amount of time, effort, and quality.  Oh, and do yourself a favor and pick yourself up a bottle of Future.  This stuff is has a thousand uses with Acrylic paints and inks. 

[Xtrahmxwohld]

Oh, and do yourself a favor and pick yourself up a bottle of Future.  This stuff is has a thousand uses with Acrylic paints and inks.

That would be Future Floor Wax, AKA  Pledge with Future Shine!

http://www.floorcareproducts.com/floor-finish/index.asp

[Mastergunz]

I use Colorplace Equipment Grey Spray. Cheap and gives a very smooth finish. When I need a dedicated white or Black I go with Krylon. :)

-Gunz

[Vlads Fangs]

I'll throw in my two cents.I use apple barrel and polly S and testors water based paints.And I use walmart spray primer,hey it works great for me O0

[RacerX]

I don't know if this will sell you on Acryllics or not but I found this online book from Liquitex yesturday.  After you get through the marketing you will find a lot of great information in this book.  It is 122 pages and so far I've learned quite a bit about paint in general.  Give it a look.  I beats buying a book.  I'm also convinced that I won't be using Crapple Barrel until I can verify that the colors will outlive me which I hope to be another 50 to 70 years.  However, if I get hit by a bus tonight then Crapple Barrel performed to my expectations.  Anyway, give the book a read. 

What do you artist types feel about using art store "artist" acryllic paints as opposed to "Hobby" paints like GW, P3, and Vallejo?  If I can get them for the same price which would you lean towards and why?  For example I did the math last night on GW inks vs Liquitex inks.  The price per ounce favors Liquitex.

http://www.liquitex.com/resources/2007AcrylicBook.pdf

[ShadowRaven]

by artist acrylics are you refering to the ones that ussualy come in a tube? If so, they work great. Their downside is they are generally a lot thicker then hobby paints, or craft paints. You can thin them down with just water, or water and future, however, I also recomend an acryllic matte medium, which is generally what they are mixed with when doing paintings. It extends the amount you can get out of the tube considerabley.  I have only a couple I use, an oxide red, and a paynes gray.

[agen2]

Agen nailed the big reason... Its so much cheaper.

The results are so much better too but even if they were the same, the price would be a telling factor.

Also the variety is A1. You can go all the way from expensive art shop brands to cheap and nasty kids paints (though the results do vary at the low end). More variety for Acrylics than Oil.

Don't forget  patience,a light and cheap mask for don't breath the turpentine fumes,open the doors and wait next day for another painting session.

[OverKill]

So we decided Acrylics was the way to go?

Today I purchased a can of Testors Spray Enamel (Grey) as that was all Hobby Hobby had in my city. Now after reading this I am guessing that it's too thick?

[greatsarcasmo]

Not necessarly. Use real thin light coats and see what it looks like.

[OverKill]

What about spraying some onto a a plastic container and then just applying it with a brush?

[Kat]

Artist acrylics differ greatly from hobby acrylics, which differ from craft acrylics. And artist acrylics actually have at least two grades: standard [or "student" depending on brand] and professional. The difference between those two grades is the amount of pure pigment versus the amount of filler. Professional artist acrylics will have the richest, most vibrant color and best paint quality, though they will be pricier.

However, if you $6 for a tube of art acrylics, you're getting a tube of mostly paint. If you get a jar of hobby acrylics for $3, you're getting mostly water. So, if you are willing to take the time to learn how to properly prepare art acrylics for miniature use, I would highly recommend that over hobby acrylics in most cases. It's a better value, overall, as a single tube of pro-grade paint could last you an entire army.

I wouldn't recommend craft acrylics for anything ever, though.  #P

Thinning them can be as simple as adding water or alcohol.

I've never heard of anyone adding alcohol to acrylics to thin them. I would imagine that would just make the paint dry out quicker than it does already.

Typically, I just use water, myself. I've used gel medium as thinner for paintings, but I haven't tried that on a miniature.

[greatsarcasmo]

I use alcohol all the time. Works better then water for my few Tamyia brand paints i have.  I'm told it also works better in airbrushes, but never having used one, I can not attest one way or the other.  It is one of the main ingredients in "acrylic thinner" made my some paint manufactures. 

[Force of Nature]

FWIW, I have all of the Howard Hues paints and have been very pleased with them.

They come "thick" and are easily thinned to taste with a couple drops of water from an eyedropper.

That said, they are perfect for drybrushing without adding water.

See the Tank Green "pot" in the picture.

Force