what comes before the merge?

[Cannonshop]

Space, is very, very big.

It's so big, that it's effectively infinite.  It's so big, so very nearly infinite, that an encounter with another object, requires a bit of effort and planning.

When you're talking about space combat, it's the sort of effort and planning that requires both the attacker, and the defender, to cooperate in arranging the meeting.

That's how big space is.

Now, naturally, some people don't want to meet you, even though you quite desperately want to meet them.

Perhaps to exchange messages, or to exchange star-hot bursts of plasma and hypervelocity projectiles, they don't want to run into you, but you want to run into them.

In the case of some factions in the Battletech setting, this running into is quite literal.  (I guess it has rocket nozzles and a somewhat pointy end, or rounded, but looks like a missile to some folks no matter WHAT you hang off of it...)

So, How do you arrange to meet new people (and maybe try to kill them) in space?

This may hinge on why You're there (wanting to meet new people and make them past-tense) and why They're there (Not wanting to die, so they must have other business.)

Well, how do you arrange it?

1. It helps to know why the people you're keen to meet (and kill) are in space, and where they might be intending to be IN space.  I mean, you can shotgun a guess with your handy random number generator, or you can actually KNOW where someone is headed...and why they're going there.

This helps alot with arranging that all-important meeting you're keen to have with them.  but it's not enough to know where someone intends to go, if you don't have a pretty strong idea of when they're going to get there.

It doesn't help to lurk in an alleyway with a sharp object hoping to make someone scream and bleed, after all, if you're there at the wrong time of day, or of the year-being there after they've already left isn't very productive for sharing your kilotonnage yeild explosive/plasma messages, after all and being there too soon, they might decide not to continue, or decide to skip the trip for an alternative.

So, first, you need to know where, when, and why.

In the Battletech universe, only Planets matter.

This, is because all issues are settled by throwing multiton large waldoes at one another on the ground.  One of the main motivators for arranging a meeting in space, is because if the other fellow can't put his multitens of tons of mostly-humanoid robot on the ground, he can't win whatever argument happens to be going on.

we'll call "Planets" point B.

The way you arrive in a solar system, is most often via "Jump Points" (the closest reliable approach through hyperspace to an inhabitable planet)  There are two of these: Zenith, and Nadir.  We'll call those point A1 and point A2.

Space, has no friction.  It also has precious little to no terrain between points A1 and A2, and point B.

You can, in fact, drive straight from the jump point, to the planet, without needing to steer for so much as a crossing guard.  The shortest distance between two points, after all, is a straight line.

That means if the person you're keen to exchange high-energy gifts with appears at either A1, or A2, with the intent of delivering a force of heavy equipment operators and their ten meter (on average) robots, you can predict, depending on the time of year, about where in a cone with the base of it being the orbit of the habitable planet, and the point being the given zone of points A1 or A2, with some reliability.

Knowing which way they have to go, is only part of the problem.

You need to know when they're going to be at any given location, and at what velocity they'll be passing through it.  Objects, are not Electrons, you cAN know their velocity AND their location at any given time-it's possible to do.

You don't even need radar, if you have a good telescope and know roughly where to be watching-even from the planet.  People have been doing this reliably since the 13th century.

but how do you know WHEN to be there? It's quite an embarrassment to show up for the dance after the band's gotten paid and retired to their tour bus, after all... (Or the DJ's already put his gear in the back of his Prius.)

this is why you need to know why.

A guy carrying a freighter full of contraband doesn't need to worry nearly as much about the health of his passengers, as a dropship loaded with ground troops, or a passenger liner full of juicy civilians with large credit accounts and lots of goods that can be fenced in the next system.

The latter two, are going to be somewhat confined in how hard, how oftne, and how sincerely they alter their thrust profile, velocity, and heading.  This is because Battletech does not include Inertial Dampening.  Newton's laws still apply to people inside the spaceship, so hard accelerations (multiple gees) caused by maneuvering, or thrusting really fast?

Not so good for your passengers/ground soldiers.

really not good.  sustained high-gravity on mammals does not make them into superman like DC comics tried to tell you, it makes them casualties, they arrive, other than ready for battle, They arrive ready for a nice stay in the hospital, or a longer stay in a nice graveyard.

No combat action required.

Troop transports will tend to need to stick to one gravity (Plus or minus one percent) for the health and safety (Fitness to fight) of the military personnel abaord, and can really only afford hard maneuvers for very short periods of time.

periods that aren't going to be long enough to significantly alter their fixed course-this is whether accelerating TO the target, or decelerating to match orbital vector for troop insertion.

There's also the spot in space, where the troopship needs to stop accelerating, and has not yet begun de celerating.  because in Battletech, with no electrogravity magic available, nor inertial dampening, it's all based on pointing your main engines in the direction of the planet you're trying to reach, and burning fuel to slow down enough you don't overshoot (or smack into it, making a rather large crater, assuming your armor holds up through re-entry).

This is your ideal intercept zone.  They HAVE TO be on a certain vector, or they won't make the planet at all.  they ALSO have to start slowing down, but can't slow down faster than one gravity's worth of acceleration  to bleed off that velocity, and because Soldiers don't tend to like confinement in a sardine box, they're going to want the trip as short as possible without suffering injuries.

as the predator, you are not saddled with a horde of passengers that are, effectively, very fragile cargo that moves around a lot and gets in the way of normal operations.

this means you can use some basic techniques to mitigate the negative effects of burning at higher than one gee, because you don't have loose gear, pogie bait, contraband, unsecured equipment and unprotected or unsuited individuals romaing about your ship getting hurt because they don't like strapping in, or don't strap in properly, or don't even have a proper place TO strap in.

Properly protected persons in a fixed location such as an acceleration couch can handle fairly significant G's up to 3 gravities with a lower chance of blood starvation to the brain, internal organ failure, or broken bones from ordinary trip hazards.

not "NO" possibility, but less of one...if the personnel are properly secured in protective garments, with g-force support (bladders in the 20th century, flight suits are actually more complex than 'baggy coveralls that look cool with patches')  this gives your interception crew a good bit of the initiative in picking when, (within the strike zone) and where (within the strike zone) to exchange high energy plasma, coherent light, high velocity projectiles, etc. with the enemy.

Basically, he can either fail his mission, or hope you back off.  He may have escorts similarly equipped to help you decide to back off.

It's reasonable, after all.  Troop ships are expensive undertakings even if they're built very cheaply-the things they're carrying are VERY expensive, especially in the Battletech universe, and NOT having them popped like a soap bubble is always more desirable than having them popped like a soap bubble.

[Cannonshop]

Available Thrust vs. Available Practical thrust.

Being able to pull 3 or 4 G's doesn't help much, if it screws up your mission to do it.  As I mentioned in the previous post, Battletech lacks certain sci-fa staples like "Inertial Dampening" and electrogravity generators.  To undestand why this is important, take an ordinary cup of hot, MacDonald's coffee (or your brand of choice) and put it on the dasboard of your car.

Now without strapping it down, or touching it, see if you can beat a 14 second quarter-mile, with a hard stop at the end.

When you get out of the burn ward, because you just got a very hot cup of coffee sprayed across your face, crotch, legs, and chest (and then the dribbles were sprayed on the inside of your windshield)  do the experiment again, this time, secure the cup in the cup-holder and put a top on it.

Yes, your dry cleaner won't thank you for the lost business, but you're a lot more likely to be comfortable.

Now, do a slalom course with the top off and see how much coffee you lose.

do it again with the top on.

The cup with a top is the g-suit or flight suit.  The coffee is the guys inside, the car, is your spaceship.

It's not velocity that's the problem, it's acceleration.

Acceleration in a straight line, acceleration in turns and curves, acceleration as you brake (deceleration).

with careful driving, slow acceleration, and smooth movement, you can avoid spilling ANY of the coffee-even if the cup is open. (or so little it hardly matters), but if you take your coffee on an SCCA evasion course, it's going to become part of your upholstery.


Same thing with unsecured ground troops and/or civilians on a dropship.

Sudden Movements are BAD for the people you're transporting.

Hard accelerations are as well.

Thus, for most invasion forces, one gee is optimal.  One gee lets your ground pounders stay used to planetary gravity, prevents loss of muscle tone, circulatory strength, etc. that happens in microgravity, and one gee is about the limit for keeping your soldiers healthy enough that when they arrive at the battle, they don't come off the ship needing an ambulance ride and several weeks of physical therapy.

Therefore, One gee to ONe and a small percentage (less than 1.15) is about the 'Practical" acceleration for passenger ships, or troop ships carrying troops as passengers, or invasion transports.

most invasion transports in Battletech pull quite a bit more than that as their 'safe' cruise. It's important to recognize, then, that 'safe' in that context? has nothing to do with the people inside, and a lot to do with how much maintenance and repair your ship's engines and structure will need after a few trips.

IOW it's "safe" for the SHIP, not the crew (and most certainly not the passengers).

That's your Theoretical acceleration, as opposed to your Practical acceleration curve.

it's the acceleration at which, you carry out your mission assuming nothing goes wrong.

The Aegis, and the Baron, should now start making a lot more sense, by the way.

[Cannonshop]

Hard Maneuvers, Evasive Maneuvering, and other road runner shit.

Battle being battle, the other guy may have objections to your soldiers arriving comfortably at one gee (until the re-entry burn).  now, if you've deployed to any of the global hot-spots in the last 30 years, youve been on an airliner (Or military transport aircraft) with lots of fellow soldiers, packed like sardines, on otherwise somewhat comfortable seats.

Imagine being trapped in that seat for a week or more.

Not gonna happen, right?  You're going to get up, stretch your legs, at least get some motion so your feet don't turn blue or your buttocks don't develop bedsores.

This is the problem with dropship travel, soldier-style.  They're not going to sit quietly for LONG periods, they're going to move around-even with the warning lights on.

if they don't, they won't be fit when they arrive (again).

this means that provisions that let A-10 pilots comfortably pull multi-gee evasions, are not going to be available on your Union dropship (or equivalent), or if they are, it's not for the passengers, it's for the FLIGHT CREW.

the passengers might get very nice seating, but they're unlikely to be keen to use it over that long trip from the Jump Point, to the Target Planet.

Thus, why I harped on Gee forces and human bodies, and why I find I must keep reminding people that Inertial dampening and electrogravity don't exist in the Battletech Universe.

In flight, the passengers/cargo are going to want to move aroudn, they may even NEED TO move around to be ready for their big debut on the ground after the trip.  (standard maintenance, equipment maintenance, weapons maintenance, going to the potty...)

That means loose objects, which do what, when you start pulling two gee turns?

SLAM!! SLAM!! THUK-splash!

oops, someoen got a spanner wrench through their brain pan, so sorry, or maybe it was the whole toolbox.  It's okay, they didn't die alone, it hit some vital equipment on its way tumbling through the bay and....

get the idea?

That's right, your transport dropship? is NOT going to be flexing those Higher-than-one-gee acceleration muscles until it's planned to do so, or until they literally have no other option (lose a few passengers and some gear, or lose the ship).

The risk to the mission is too high, and it's jsut as bad if you lock down everyone in a chair for the week or so it takes to get from the Zenith to the Planet.

in general, then, Hard Maneuvers are something you want to only do, when the rest of the trip is very short-such as when you're managing re-entry, the cargo's secured their shit, and their asses and are braced for it.

THIS is where that 4/6 or 3/5 (2G Safe, 3 G overthrust or 1.5 Gee Safe/2.5 gee overthrust) actually matter-because re-entry is a matter of minutes, not hours or days, and even poorly geared people can sit tight in a padded seat for that without problems.

well, if they're already in good condition, anyway.

[Cannonshop]

Getting to the Merge

The easiest way to get to the merge, is to skip all those additional steps, and wait in orbit for the enemy to arrive.

this is reliable, you know where they're coming from, and where they're going, and its very close to your support infrastructure so refueling and rearming of fighters and combat dropships is much, much, much easier and less resource intensive.

The only problem, is the same problem you have if you wait for the rioters with their torches to be pounding on your front door before you start shooting.

but then, if you've got something that will chew right through them at that close range, that might not be a problem.  (Illustration, a man triggering a 12 pounder napoleon with grapeshot at a group bunched up in his front door.)

This is the move that is also very convenient if your command staff are deeply ingrained in understanding surface warfare doctrine and close orbit aerospace, but not so ingrained at being patient for days to weeks on end running an interception plot.  Comfort zones are, in fact, important for how well militaries perform.  Putting Arctic/tundra troops in the tropics is ill-advised, as is sending desert specialists to conduct underwater demolitions.

some things just don't work very well, even if they look really good on paper.  When your navy consists of Warriors who sometimes go into space, it's probably NOT a good idea to demand that they act like Spacers who occasionally have to fight.

Another way to look at it, is that you don't put an Army Ranger in charge of the USS Iowa in an actual live combat scenario on the north sea or pacific, because his skillset is NOT FOR THAT KIND OF FIGHT.

Trying is, after all, not the same as succeeding.

[AlphaMirage]

Good write-up Cannon shop with lots of salient points

The A-B conundrum is why I think fast Warships should be based at A and slower ones at B. A fast Warship can locate and pursue a target before they acquire immense relative velocity disabling them quickly. Meanwhile a slower Warship with heavier firepower can either wait if it posseses less acceleration for the closing burn. Otherwise it can execute a short range High Speed Closing Engagement to eliminate the threat or force them to deviate from their intercept.

Additionally a dropship operating like a mobile space station or a station with marines and small gunships/fighters should be deployed to A as to threaten any hostile jumpship there.

The problem arises with nonstandard points as those cannot be easily defended against due to volume and light speed lag. Not impossible if you have a really good surveillance network looking at likely arrival points such as the orbits of local gas giants. While these approaches could be a less direct route that might work to your enemy's advantage. Unfortunately for them you will have time to deploy after detection so this only prevents an early interdiction but might still result in you sending a jumpship and/or droppers to their jumpship and dealing with it there

My opinion is that your planetary defense should start outward from the planet itself so a large dropship, lunar base, or space station can tender PWS or carriers that can push the intercept further away along the approach vector. Basically they will operate as a mobile minefield that must be dealt with before transatmospheric deployment can begin. If your planetary defense force is large enough a second intercept will occur inside geosynchronous orbit further degrading the enemy's ability to mass forces.

Thus you have potentially four different times to execute intercept, jump points interdiction, midway interdiction, far planetary intercept, and close planetary intercept.

[AlphaMirage]

Additionally thoughts came to my mind, perhaps a planetary invasion into a fortified system should come in at multiple nonstandard points. That way you reduce the on station personnel and limit damage to your own force after all a fortified system might have a jumpship or warship waiting to interdict your jump point but it likely won't have 4. Coming in at different approaches or even time delayed will thin out the defense and might even force them to move everything to close intercept rather than dilute their forces only to have enemy reinforcements pass by while they returned to station after an intercept.

[Weirdo]

So, How do you arrange to meet new people (and maybe try to kill them) in space?

This is incredibly easy. You go to a place they don't want you to be, and do stuff(or threaten to do stuff) they don't want you to do. Either they come to meet you(which is a win unless your math was way off on their strength) or they don't come to meet you and you keep doing the things (which is also a win).

[Cannonshop]

This is incredibly easy. You go to a place they don't want you to be, and do stuff(or threaten to do stuff) they don't want you to do. Either they come to meet you(which is a win unless your math was way off on their strength) or they don't come to meet you and you keep doing the things (which is also a win).

NOw, see, that's ONE solution to the "Where and When"...but what happens when it's Your Job to be tthe guy who has to respond to someone else doing things you don't want done to people you don't want them done to?

is it better to wait until they're doing those things before you react, or is it better to stop them before they can do real damage?

If your answer to the last question is 'It's better to stop them before they do real damage to soft targets' then the previous posts I put up, are at least not useless.

(or, if you're contemplating a career in interstellar/interplanetary piracy, since the principles of 'know what your target can't afford to do' still apply).

Knowing where you can force an engagement, or engage with lowered risks, is useful to the Naval officer in ways that many ground warfare types could empathize with, but in an environment completely outside their root understanding, with issues ground forces really don't have to deal with very often, if at all.

What issues?

1. Isolation.  In space, distances between you, and 'home base' with the comfortable cots, kitchen facilities, and that leaf that feels better than toilet paper and is good for your skin can be measured in astronomical units-because Kilometers requires too many zeroes.  If you leave the door open, you're not risking mosquitoes getting in, you're risking never breathing again.  There's nothing to forage if the food runs out or goes bad, if the toilets back up it's not jsut a mess, it's a risk to the entirety of you and the people you rely on to keep you alive, and so on.

2. Boredom.  With distances being what they are, and even at the blistering, blinding speeds that are possible, 99.9% of the time the only things to do are routines to keep the equipment functioning (so you don't die) and killing time waiting for something to happen.  In a contained environment like a patrol dropship, warship, or jumpship, this can be a real threat, as can cabin fever.

3. Apathy.  This derives from boredom, isolation, etc.

4. I forget the word, but it's a mental state where,  because everything HAS been going fine, everything WILL KEEP going fine. Oh, right, Complacency.

5. There is no 'down' in space.  no 'up' either.  Under thrust there's the direction the floor is moving for 'down', the entire thing is three dimensional and virtually unlimited until you get to a large gravitational body like a planet.  (Planets and other gravity wells have a 'down'-it's toward teh center of the object in question.)

6. In addition to no air in space, there's no wind resistance.  There's light pressure (the pressure exerted by light) and there's 'solar wind' (a wind with maybe as much as one atom every four meters in any given direction) but neither of those are really much of a factor below relativistic velocities, and at those, only at the higher end closer to light speed.  for all practical purposes, once you're going in a given direction, at a given velocity, you'll keep going unless or until you either interact with something, or you interact with your engines to reduce that velocity or alter the vector.

Space, is effectively frictionless.

On a planet, when your engine stops producing thrust, you eventually stop (or suddenly stop, depending on what that loss of thrust was caused by, note that lithobraking IS deconstructive.)

In space, your engines go out, you keep going in that direction until either something catches up and catches you, or you hit something bodily.

which will impart some of your velocity onto whatever you hit. think 'balls on a pool table', only with a frictionless environment. the speed change is governed by which is more massive, and the amount of energy transferred to the thing being hit/hitting.

course correction during a naval fight is somehting that has to be managed. (thankfully, the game ignores this, but in a 'reality' recoil and impact will both futz with your course keeping if you're not actively correcting.)

[Hellraiser]

You know, this thread made me think of something.

"A1/A2" for many systems will have an Olympus class Space Station or possibly Shipyard
"B" may or may not have a Shipyard or a Bastion class Space Station.
I'll add a "C" here which is basically anything in system that is not A/B but has a Shipyard/Station/Base/Mining Facility at it.  (Think Titan/Mars)
Finally "D" would be "Major/Common/Stable" Pirate Points v/s some of the very transient stuff.

But what I'm really looking at is B for this question.

So assuming you have 1 moon in a typical Earth/Luna set up.

Where is it "worth" setting up your garrison/defenses?


And what I mean by that is this:

1.  An ASF/Fleet Base  (Planet has one for sure)    But would you put one on the Moon?   (Is it worth it to build/pay/maintain something in a hostile environment?)

2.  Would having a few Carrier/DS on patrol that can land back on the planet for maintenance/crew rotation/resupply, etc etc, be better than a Moon Base

3.  Where would an orbital space station fall into the equation?  (Better/Worse than Moon Base?)   
3B.  Would you build a station in Lunar Orbit v/s Terran Orbit?



My 4th question has to do w/ location "D" as it relates to "B" but also the entire Solar System.

Basically, what portion of them would you attempt to monitor with satellites?

Earth has several points based on the alignment of Sol-Earth-Luna.
But you have other key "D" points in the solar system.

Is it even worth monitoring something that isn't A/B/C?
Or just the "D" locations that relate to B/C, but don't bother w/ other "D" locations?

From memory, I know in Sol you have "C" locations at Venus, Mars, Jupiter, & Saturn at least.
But assuming a system with similar planet layout but lacking the infrastructure to label them "C" would you bother monitoring "Titan" or "Mars" if they were empty rocks?

Given the lag time of any transmission & the costs in setting up monitoring, is it worth it?

[AlphaMirage]

I have speculated on this in my Fleet Admirals Guide (link in sig below) basically I'd be deploying surveillance satellites at the L4 as the planet is going that way so anything that is lining up to intercept will be visible from there and unobstructed by a moon.

I'd say Lunar Air/Missile Base beats Space Station because you can control access better than a space station so any unauthorized dropship gets two warnings before you blow it up. It beats the space station out because it can be hardened but also outfitted with Capital Weapons that are unable (by RAW) to fire in planetary atmosphere. Having a Lunar Military Base also protects your actual planet by forcing the enemy to fight you there as opposed to the planet where all your nice stuff is because they must disable/destroy the (well-supplied) military outpost from the field in order to assert control over the planet itself. It also provides a redundant C2 Node that you can escape to should the populace rise up against you for totally imagined excesses. So yeah sure it might be expensive but so is losing your planet and the palace you build on it. Your troops will rotate to gravity every week or so to maintain muscle tone, get some R&R, and receive additional supplies.

[Hellraiser]

I have speculated on this in my Fleet Admirals Guide (link in sig below) basically I'd be deploying surveillance satellites at the L4 as the planet is going that way so anything that is lining up to intercept will be visible from there and unobstructed by a moon.

So I was googling the L-points.

1.  Based on the pictures.  L4/5 seem weird to me.
The diagrams have them as equal distance from Sun & Earth but, Sun & Earth have different gravitational pulls right?
So it seems like to balance those similar to the L1 point, you'd have to be a lot closer to Earth.
I guess L4/5 seem to be well w/in the star's gravity field & shouldn't be able to be a jump point, but maybe the diagram is off on google, or I just don't get it, LOL.


2.  Depending on the orbit of the moon, it seems like it would be possible to block view of the L4 point & vice versa L4 to Earth.

I'd say Lunar Air/Missile Base beats Space Station because you can control access better than a space station so any unauthorized dropship gets two warnings before you blow it up. It beats the space station out because it can be hardened but also outfitted with Capital Weapons that are unable (by RAW) to fire in planetary atmosphere. Having a Lunar Military Base also protects your actual planet by forcing the enemy to fight you there as opposed to the planet where all your nice stuff is because they must disable/destroy the (well-supplied) military outpost from the field in order to assert control over the planet itself. It also provides a redundant C2 Node that you can escape to should the populace rise up against you for totally imagined excesses. So yeah sure it might be expensive but so is losing your planet and the palace you build on it. Your troops will rotate to gravity every week or so to maintain muscle tone, get some R&R, and receive additional supplies.

Agreed.
I was more considering the ability of a Station to move if needed for defense v/s the base is fixed, but I can see why a base would be much more durable.

[Cannonshop]

You know, this thread made me think of something.

"A1/A2" for many systems will have an Olympus class Space Station or possibly Shipyard
"B" may or may not have a Shipyard or a Bastion class Space Station.
I'll add a "C" here which is basically anything in system that is not A/B but has a Shipyard/Station/Base/Mining Facility at it.  (Think Titan/Mars)
Finally "D" would be "Major/Common/Stable" Pirate Points v/s some of the very transient stuff.

But what I'm really looking at is B for this question.

So assuming you have 1 moon in a typical Earth/Luna set up.

Where is it "worth" setting up your garrison/defenses?


And what I mean by that is this:

1.  An ASF/Fleet Base  (Planet has one for sure)    But would you put one on the Moon?   (Is it worth it to build/pay/maintain something in a hostile environment?)

2.  Would having a few Carrier/DS on patrol that can land back on the planet for maintenance/crew rotation/resupply, etc etc, be better than a Moon Base

3.  Where would an orbital space station fall into the equation?  (Better/Worse than Moon Base?)   
3B.  Would you build a station in Lunar Orbit v/s Terran Orbit?



My 4th question has to do w/ location "D" as it relates to "B" but also the entire Solar System.

Basically, what portion of them would you attempt to monitor with satellites?

Earth has several points based on the alignment of Sol-Earth-Luna.
But you have other key "D" points in the solar system.

Is it even worth monitoring something that isn't A/B/C?
Or just the "D" locations that relate to B/C, but don't bother w/ other "D" locations?

From memory, I know in Sol you have "C" locations at Venus, Mars, Jupiter, & Saturn at least.
But assuming a system with similar planet layout but lacking the infrastructure to label them "C" would you bother monitoring "Titan" or "Mars" if they were empty rocks?

Given the lag time of any transmission & the costs in setting up monitoring, is it worth it?

1. Yes.  A moon is always better than a space station, it's able to absorb fire that you can't build a space station smaller than a megastructure to take, it can be fortified more easily and so on.

2. More of an 'emergency alternative' though you should probably have that even WITH the moon base, coordinating with it, and with planetary defenses based ON the planet.

3. An orbital station is either an adjunct to the moon base, or a replacement for situations where you can't have one (no moon, the local bodies are too small/fragile/radioactive/too active tectonically like IO...)  ideally, your orbiting satellite bases act as additional angles of defense/detection to cover the orbital period the moon's occluded by the planet.

4.  I intentionally oversimplified beause I was trying to articulate basics, aka the basics of navigating and simple principles.  Paring down to the barest minimum before expanding into more complexity like unstable jump points, periodic points (Pirate points) and such.  after all, if you can't wrap your head around defending/attacking on the simplest points, adding more complexity like pirate points just leaves people behind.

The principle questions of "Intercept or Wait for it" have to be worked out before you get to the complexity.  Like figuring out how to walk before you run the boston marathon.

[Daryk]

L4/L5 account for centripetal forces, and while they offer stable orbits, are not jump points at all.

[Hellraiser]

L4/L5 account for centripetal forces, and while they offer stable orbits, are not jump points at all.

Ok, see, that makes more sense then.

I thought AM was saying he would put satellites at L4 to monitor it as a Pirate Point which is what I was asking about.  Strictly jump points.


But just to clarify, L1-2-3 ARE Jump Points right?

I mean, I've always assumed so, but, maybe I'm mistaken.

[Hellraiser]

1. Yes.  A moon is always better than a space station, it's able to absorb fire that you can't build a space station smaller than a megastructure to take, it can be fortified more easily and so on.

2. More of an 'emergency alternative' though you should probably have that even WITH the moon base, coordinating with it, and with planetary defenses based ON the planet.

3. An orbital station is either an adjunct to the moon base, or a replacement for situations where you can't have one (no moon, the local bodies are too small/fragile/radioactive/too active tectonically like IO...)  ideally, your orbiting satellite bases act as additional angles of defense/detection to cover the orbital period the moon's occluded by the planet.

4.  I intentionally oversimplified beause I was trying to articulate basics, aka the basics of navigating and simple principles.  Paring down to the barest minimum before expanding into more complexity like unstable jump points, periodic points (Pirate points) and such.  after all, if you can't wrap your head around defending/attacking on the simplest points, adding more complexity like pirate points just leaves people behind.

The principle questions of "Intercept or Wait for it" have to be worked out before you get to the complexity.  Like figuring out how to walk before you run the boston marathon.

Excellent thank you.

[Daryk]

Only a point near the L1.  All Lagrange points account for centripetal acceleration, which doesn't affect jump points.

[AlphaMirage]

The surveillance satellite at L4 was just extra to more complex manned systems located on occupied bodies. It mostly provides another chance to pick up low signature bodies setting up an orbital rendezvous with your planet since it's slightly ahead of the planet.

You'll know if someone executes a pirate jump due to the emissions if you are looking. It does only give you a few hours still to begin mobilizing your troops rather than days like a standard point.

[EPG]

Really great discussion.  I can think of 3 1/2 ways to force an engagement:

1. Attack something the other side cannot afford to loose
2. Defend something you know the enemy has to take.
3a.. Tactical Surprise - e (ex using a pirate point that comes in practically on top of the enemy, or gaining data about future enemy movements (ex - their destroyer squadron needs resuply, basic repairs and a crew change.  They will be at space station alpha for one week.
3b. Strategic surprise - hit warships that are engaged in predictable pracetime  activities, inactive and uncrewed or minimally manned, etc. 

[DevianID]

The other way to force an engagement is by movement on the strategic scale, in init order.  I mentioned my '1 day turn map', but there is the '3.5 day turn map' also, found in battleforce.  And in it, when you win init you see where they are moving and can move to intercept.  Naval comms sensors provide a bonus to init, so make winning init and thus moving second and forcing a merge easier to pull off.

[EPG]

The other way to force an engagement is by movement on the strategic scale, in init order.  I mentioned my '1 day turn map', but there is the '3.5 day turn map' also, found in battleforce.  And in it, when you win init you see where they are moving and can move to intercept.  Naval comms sensors provide a bonus to init, so make winning init and thus moving second and forcing a merge easier to pull off.

This sort of works in a game, but only sort of, because of 2 other problems:

The opponent can see you too (probably) and deviate slightly to make you miss)

If the opponent has warships (kind of a given for this sort of problem) if you don't catch the within a week or so, their jump drive is charged up, and they can just leave. 

[SeeM]

Aerotech 1 has a hex board of space just around planet and one of its moons. I liked that, because nothing else matters. Sometimes dropships will have a lucky flyby oneshot encounter. Turning back has no point, since it would take a week to acomplish and waste a ring on a jumpship, which is already paid in full.

I would wait on a planet, launch defence just in time and try to damage droships enough to make landing somewhat risky. They will run away, or drop half their force. Problem solved.

[SeeM]

As I mentioned in the previous post, Battletech lacks certain sci-fa staples like "Inertial Dampening" and electrogravity generators. 

I am very thankful for that. We got enough of magic Mechs.

The less I have to assume, which is usually only a shortcut for easier narrative, the better.

[EPG]

Aerotech 1 has a hex board of space just around planet and one of its moons. I liked that, because nothing else matters. Sometimes dropships will have a lucky flyby oneshot encounter. Turning back has no point, since it would take a week to acomplish and waste a ring on a jumpship, which is already paid in full.

I would wait on a planet, launch defence just in time and try to damage droships enough to make landing somewhat risky. They will run away, or drop half their force. Problem solved.

That’s certainly a valid way to break up a landing force, and we see it happen on canon too.  What’s less clear is how to initiate a ‘black space’ encounter. 

[EPG]

I realized in responding to SeeM that there is another way to force an engagement in ‘black space’ with an enemy force, and that is when they are tasked with defending or protecting a valuable amount of normal jump ships - be they hauling civilians, cargo, or military equipment.  Those jump ships can’t maneuver away at any appreciable speed, so the warships associated with them can either surrender them to your forces, or fight.  They are likely to fight even if they expect to loose, if doing so might buy the escorted ships time to jump out of system (or alternatively deliver the reinforcements, or whatever to the current planetary system. 

[AlphaMirage]

The thing with engaging jumpships in combat particularly if they are carrying civilians is that if you are invading a system you probably shouldn't show up at the normal jump point and instead use a non-standard point. Also Jumpships cannot be engaged throughout much of Battletech's modern history and might belong to 3rd parties that could make your planet's further existence difficult. Again there is no reason for Warships to be escorting Jumpships IMO if they are not active combatants they should not be engaged. Fight the Warship sure if you can but taking down Jumpships is a political nightmare.

[EPG]

The thing with engaging jumpships in combat particularly if they are carrying civilians is that if you are invading a system you probably shouldn't show up at the normal jump point and instead use a non-standard point. Also Jumpships cannot be engaged throughout much of Battletech's modern history and might belong to 3rd parties that could make your planet's further existence difficult. Again there is no reason for Warships to be escorting Jumpships IMO if they are not active combatants they should not be engaged. Fight the Warship sure if you can but taking down Jumpships is a political nightmare.

If you have the economic capability to field warships and use them to escort civilian jump ships, then you are almost certainly  one of the eras of Battletech when the jump ships ARE fair game. However even if you don’t try to blow them all up, you can/will certainly capture them all with a shot or two across the bow.  The corrallary to jumpships can’t be blown up is that jumpships aren’t  allowed to defend themselves either - they have to surrender to any credible military threat, and unless they are carrying some heavy aerospace and/or assault drop ships an unopposed warship certainly qualifies. 

[glitterboy2098]

the predictability of the flightpaths between traditional jump points and planets makes me wonder why, if an invasion is not going to use a pirate point, we don't see more invasion happening with the jumpships coming in beyond the system's gravitational limits. sure it would take longer to burn in towards the planet if you arrive out in the oort cloud somewhere, but given the limitations of BT sensors your invasion force would basically be undetectable until you are very close to the destination planet, and the defenders would have very limited time to respond. and position enough sensor platforms to give full coverage of the outer system would be far more exensive than would be feasible in the canonical fasanomics.

[Cannonshop]

the predictability of the flightpaths between traditional jump points and planets makes me wonder why, if an invasion is not going to use a pirate point, we don't see more invasion happening with the jumpships coming in beyond the system's gravitational limits. sure it would take longer to burn in towards the planet if you arrive out in the oort cloud somewhere, but given the limitations of BT sensors your invasion force would basically be undetectable until you are very close to the destination planet, and the defenders would have very limited time to respond. and position enough sensor platforms to give full coverage of the outer system would be far more exensive than would be feasible in the canonical fasanomics.

I think it would largely be a personnel issue.  The further out you go *(and the zenth/Nadir points are as close as you can reliably come at acceptable risks for a jump operation with massed transports) the furtehr out you hae to start decelerating, the longer it's going to take, the higher your chance that some portion of your forces will do s omething catastrophically stupid or unproductive.  also the more fuel, air and water you have to pack for the trip.

The most important thing to an invasion  planner, is getting their invasion forces into a position, in a condition, to conquer the target reliably.  (hence, why Kerensky needed to secure the zenith and nadir points instead of going off-axis or through pirate points.)
 
Hyper disciplined troops, with large ships that have extensive room for exercises and a strong logistical tail, could manage an off-axis invasion and bypass the 'predictable' route-if they have ample time to spend, ample budgets, etc.

The typical robot-cowboys we see in the fiction, representing elites? not so much.

[Hellraiser]

As I understand it, there's 3 different ways of coming in beyond the Proximity Limit.

1.  Standard/Nadir-Zenith.   Super North/South above the star.  Area most free of debris & beyond proximity limit.
2.  "Jump in beyond Pluto" sort of thing but on the same planetary disk.  Runs the risk of debris & your on the same "plane" as the planets while you travel in system.
  You can hide behind/on moons & such as you close in over the course of a few weeks.
3.  "Jump in North/South of your destination world"  So, your out past proximity limit via N/S direction, at the same elevation as Nadir/Zenith, but your closer to the planet.
This point has more risk of debris as not everything in the system is orbiting on the planetary disk.

This 3rd option will actually shave off some time from transit as your closer, (5-10% per Sarna) but does have some risk involved compared option #1
But coming in from a direction no one is actively looking in & shaving a day off could make for a good invasion point.

[Hellraiser]

sure it would take longer to burn in towards the planet if you arrive out in the oort cloud somewhere, but given the limitations of BT sensors your invasion force would basically be undetectable until you are very close to the destination planet, and the defenders would have very limited time to respond. and position enough sensor platforms to give full coverage of the outer system would be far more exensive than would be feasible in the canonical fasanomics.

How confident are you that we know every single asteroid/comet/meteor traveling through our solar system?
I'm not confident at all that we do.
Or that ANY BT world doesn't have objects sailing around at various distances from the star or in orbits off axis like Pluto.
It's all fun & games till you jump in & a small asteroid the size of a 3-story building rips through the aft section of your Monolith taking out Jump Sail, Station Keeping Drive, & 2 DS in the process.  But hey, its a good thing your taskforce has 2 Invaders that can go for help :)
Is it likely?  No, space is a big place, but, it only takes 1x to really mess up everyone's day.

[SeeM]

Area most free of debris & beyond proximity limit.
[...]
2.  "Jump in beyond Pluto" sort of thing but on the same planetary disk.  Runs the risk of debris
[...]
This point has more risk of debris as not everything in the system is orbiting on the planetary disk

Debris is moved out of the way by introducing annihilation to some kilograms of matter at the arrive point, which is converted to energy, leaving very energetic radiation for a short time. It would clear some dust, but unfortunate ice ball still could do a lot of internal damage and kill the crew.

[EPG]

I think it would largely be a personnel issue.  The further out you go *(and the zenth/Nadir points are as close as you can reliably come at acceptable risks for a jump operation with massed transports) the furtehr out you hae to start decelerating, the longer it's going to take, the higher your chance that some portion of your forces will do s omething catastrophically stupid or unproductive.  also the more fuel, air and water you have to pack for the trip.

The most important thing to an invasion  planner, is getting their invasion forces into a position, in a condition, to conquer the target reliably.  (hence, why Kerensky needed to secure the zenith and nadir points instead of going off-axis or through pirate points.)
 
Hyper disciplined troops, with large ships that have extensive room for exercises and a strong logistical tail, could manage an off-axis invasion and bypass the 'predictable' route-if they have ample time to spend, ample budgets, etc.

The typical robot-cowboys we see in the fiction, representing elites? not so much.

These are all good points and I agree with them. Another one is that any real sustained attempted invasion (not a raid) is going to require continued sustainment and resupply coming in from out of system with parts, replacement crews, follow-up invasion units, occupation troops, replacement equipment, specialists and special equipment that wasn't initially expected, major hospital and injury stabilization and triage facilities, in system R&R (either transported and set up on planetside if it's safe to do so, or in orbit if it's not) civil affairs and police to manage the conquered portions of the populace etc. 

For the initial 'spearpoint' of the invasion achieving some level of surprise via a super long range jump point or pirate point might be workable, because they are getting the elite navigation crews with top maintained (or new) jumpships to hit that pirate point reliably, or they are those hyper disciplined assault teams in 1/2 full dropships specially modified for the mission to allow for improved crew habitability as they spend 3-4 weeks burning in to their drop points.

For everyone else, you need at least semi reliable arrivals and departures making trips to and from the planet which are reasonably short and predictable, and for 'normal' crews and equipment in fully loaded transports to be able to make the trip safely and efficiently.   To do that, you really really need those stable zenith and nadir points. Enemy action, breakdowns, miscommunication, the inevitable shortages of transport and equipment ('you mean they really need 250 full scale water purification systems with 100% spares backup within 4 weeks to keep going? I never thought they would be able to poison ALL the water supplies on a continent on such short notice' '75% of our inferno bombs have defective arming fuses because they got subcontracted out to Quikscell - we won't be able to effectively prevent their scouts from figuring out what we are up to without them' 'the spacers navigation guild says they are going to initiate a 1 week shutdown on Sunday if we can't guarantee their safety in the invasion zone according to the following demand letter' ) and the normal 'friction' of managing a campaign on such a large scale is going to create enough problems as it is.

[Hellraiser]

These are all good points and I agree with them. Another one is that any real sustained attempted invasion (not a raid) is going to require continued sustainment and resupply coming in from out of system with parts, replacement crews, follow-up invasion units, occupation troops, replacement equipment, specialists and special equipment that wasn't initially expected, major hospital and injury stabilization and triage facilities, in system R&R (either transported and set up on planetside if it's safe to do so, or in orbit if it's not) civil affairs and police to manage the conquered portions of the populace etc. 

For the initial 'spearpoint' of the invasion achieving some level of surprise via a super long range jump point or pirate point might be workable, because they are getting the elite navigation crews with top maintained (or new) jumpships to hit that pirate point reliably, or they are those hyper disciplined assault teams in 1/2 full dropships specially modified for the mission to allow for improved crew habitability as they spend 3-4 weeks burning in to their drop points.

For everyone else, you need at least semi reliable arrivals and departures making trips to and from the planet which are reasonably short and predictable, and for 'normal' crews and equipment in fully loaded transports to be able to make the trip safely and efficiently.   To do that, you really really need those stable zenith and nadir points. Enemy action, breakdowns, miscommunication, the inevitable shortages of transport and equipment ('you mean they really need 250 full scale water purification systems with 100% spares backup within 4 weeks to keep going? I never thought they would be able to poison ALL the water supplies on a continent on such short notice' '75% of our inferno bombs have defective arming fuses because they got subcontracted out to Quikscell - we won't be able to effectively prevent their scouts from figuring out what we are up to without them' 'the spacers navigation guild says they are going to initiate a 1 week shutdown on Sunday if we can't guarantee their safety in the invasion zone according to the following demand letter' ) and the normal 'friction' of managing a campaign on such a large scale is going to create enough problems as it is.

Colorful & agreed.

A good invasion isn't going to be just 1 initial thrust either.  For example.

Lets say Taskforce-A is a Monolith jumping into a Pirate Point & releasing the 1st 2 Mech Battalions & some Spec Ops Infantry & a Fighter Wing.
Sooo,  Overlord,  Union x2,  Leopard x3,  Vengeance,  Fury,  Seeker.
This force jumps in first & is designed to give minimal warning to the enemy, they are 18 hours out from the planet when they arrive.
Initial targets are radar & communications relays & then the space port.

Taskforce-B is a single Merchant jumping into the Nadir where there is an Olympus Space Station.  (Communication from Planet to SS has a 45 minute lag)
They arrive 14 hours after TF-A with a Monarch & Buccaneer & are using faked codes to appear as a civilian hauler.
They request cargo/passenger transfer with the space station but when the DS dock w/ the SS a Battalion of Marines storm the place.

Taskforce-C is a Trio of Invaders that show up 6 hours after the Marines of Taskforce-B.
They have an Excalibur, Fury, Intruder, and a pair each of Mules, Triumphs, & Condors.
TF-C has the remains of the Mech Regiment, the Artillery Battalion, about 2/3 of the Armor Brigade, & 3/5 Regiments of the Infantry Brigade of the attacking RCT.
TF-C arrived later to allow A & B to cut off communications between each other hopefully w/o either location getting warned that the system is under attack.
TF-C conventional units will split & hold early gains while others support the advance of the Mech regiment.

Taskforce-D is slated to be the 3rd wave, after TF-A/B JSs leaves the system & jumps back to the launch point & will pick up the remaining 3 regiments of the RCT as well as another oversized mixed brigade of Tanks/Infantry that will assist in conquering the rest of the planet.  But it will be 3 weeks before they arrive back in system.
TF-D & all later waves will keep using the Standard Nadir JP & the newly secured Olympus Station.

[EPG]

Colorful & agreed.

A good invasion isn't going to be just 1 initial thrust either.  For example.

Lets say Taskforce-A is a Monolith jumping into a Pirate Point & releasing the 1st 2 Mech Battalions & some Spec Ops Infantry & a Fighter Wing.
Sooo,  Overlord,  Union x2,  Leopard x3,  Vengeance,  Fury,  Seeker.
This force jumps in first & is designed to give minimal warning to the enemy, they are 18 hours out from the planet when they arrive.
Initial targets are radar & communications relays & then the space port.

Taskforce-B is a single Merchant jumping into the Nadir where there is an Olympus Space Station.  (Communication from Planet to SS has a 45 minute lag)
They arrive 14 hours after TF-A with a Monarch & Buccaneer & are using faked codes to appear as a civilian hauler.
They request cargo/passenger transfer with the space station but when the DS dock w/ the SS a Battalion of Marines storm the place.

Taskforce-C is a Trio of Invaders that show up 6 hours after the Marines of Taskforce-B.
They have an Excalibur, Fury, Intruder, and a pair each of Mules, Triumphs, & Condors.
TF-C has the remains of the Mech Regiment, the Artillery Battalion, about 2/3 of the Armor Brigade, & 3/5 Regiments of the Infantry Brigade of the attacking RCT.
TF-C arrived later to allow A & B to cut off communications between each other hopefully w/o either location getting warned that the system is under attack.
TF-C conventional units will split & hold early gains while others support the advance of the Mech regiment.

Taskforce-D is slated to be the 3rd wave, after TF-A/B JSs leaves the system & jumps back to the launch point & will pick up the remaining 3 regiments of the RCT as well as another oversized mixed brigade of Tanks/Infantry that will assist in conquering the rest of the planet.  But it will be 3 weeks before they arrive back in system.
TF-D & all later waves will keep using the Standard Nadir JP & the newly secured Olympus Station.

Yep - love it.  And if it works, it won’t be until they properly detect task force C that they realize this is anything other than a raid, or maybe even when force D jumps in if there has been a little confusion/misdiection, etc to muddy the waters.