BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Inner Sphere => Topic started by: HikageMaru on 30 June 2011, 20:11:55
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You know, I've been thinking about this long and hard and I have come to the conclusion that the Capellan Confederation is not evil. Well, torturing people and whatnot is evil per se (like the other Houses don't do it), and they've had insane Chancellors and whatnot, but overall I don't think they're evil. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather live in Davion space, but I think the overall cultural expression of the Capellans (which, thinking about it, really isn't that much different from the Korean culture in which I was raised) is good.
Now House Kurita, they're evil.
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Word of Blake has a better dental plan.
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You know, I've been thinking about this long and hard and I have come to the conclusion that the Capellan Confederation is not evil........Now House Kurita, they're evil.
:-* Brother! I'm so glad you understand! Hopefully, as time goes on, more people will remove the Stackpole glasses and come to understand the Confederation as you do - a nation of peaceful people working together in harmony for the greater good of all. Please, help us to right the ills caused by those who have transgressed against us and help us to free our worlds from their unjust control!
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Word of Blake has a better dental plan.
Hope it's better than my firm's because I busted a tooth and had to have a crown today---and virtually pay for it myself. If I were a Capellan I'm sure I've have no out of pocket expense. Just a wooden crown and no pain killer. But so it goes when your neighbors steal all your planets and resources.
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:-* Brother! I'm so glad you understand! Hopefully, as time goes on, more people will remove the Stackpole glasses and come to understand the Confederation as you do - a nation of peaceful people working together in harmony for the greater good of all. Please, help us to right the ills caused by those who have transgressed against us and help us to free our worlds from their unjust control!
Truth be told, it really was Stackpole that put the Capellans in such a bad light (and romanticize House Kurita).
Then again, William H. Keith wasn't too kind to the Combine.
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And why, pray tell, is the Draconis Combine evil?
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And why, pray tell, is the Draconis Combine evil?
Because it's full of Dracs! ;)
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The Combine is a little more DPRK than RoK, if you had to compare.
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I don't believe that there is evil in the Inner Sphere (with a few exceptions) just a whole lot of people trying to restore Order in there own way
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Keep that point of view. That way evil can sneak up and get you!
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Truth be told, it really was Stackpole that put the Capellans in such a bad light (and romanticize House Kurita).
Then again, William H. Keith wasn't too kind to the Combine.
Yeah, but Keith had Tetsuhara and other positive Drac characters. Any Capellan Stackpole writes who has redeeming qualities will defect by the end.
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Yeah, but Keith had Tetsuhara and other positive Drac characters. Any Capellan Stackpole writes who has redeeming qualities will defect by the end.
Tetsuhara was Charette. The Red Duke was ruthless, but honourable as snakes go, and one of Keith's.
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The Combine is a little more DPRK than RoK, if you had to compare.
I would compare them to modern-day Pakistan.
The Capellan Confederation started off as the DPRK back in the Stackpole days, but now it is more like modern-day China.
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You know, I've been thinking about this long and hard and I have come to the conclusion that the Capellan Confederation is not evil. Well, torturing people and whatnot is evil per se (like the other Houses don't do it), and they've had insane Chancellors and whatnot, but overall I don't think they're evil. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather live in Davion space, but I think the overall cultural expression of the Capellans (which, thinking about it, really isn't that much different from the Korean culture in which I was raised) is good.
Now House Kurita, they're evil.
Dude, the Maskirovka agent stepped outside for a cigarette. You can stop reading off the teleprompter.
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I'd rather live in Davion space
I dont think any of us freedomloving democracy-types would be able to stand living in the Battletech universe. It seems like TPTB quite clearly designed the place to be a crapsack universe.
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Some individual Capellans may not necessarily be evil, but the Capellan Confederation is.
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Tetsuhara was Charette. The Red Duke was ruthless, but honourable as snakes go, and one of Keith's.
Yeah, just mixed the two authors' works up
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The Red Duke was a key member of the Black Dragon Society. If those guys aren't evil, I don't know who is.
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The Red Duke was a key member of the Black Dragon Society. If those guys aren't evil, I don't know who is.
Not so much evil, but stupid. Were it not for the Black Dragons and their petty schemes for power, the Kuritans would have been a superpower instead of a failed state.
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If you're not doing the CapCom evil, you're not doing it right!
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If you're not doing the CapCom evil, you're not doing it right!
>CapCom
>evil
DID SOMEONE CALL FOR EVIL RYU?!?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110325183959/streetfighter/images/thumb/4/4a/SSF4AE_Evil_Ryu.jpg/550px-SSF4AE_Evil_Ryu.jpg) (http://streetfighter.wikia.com/index.php?title=Evil_Ryu&image=SSF4AE_Evil_Ryu-jpg)
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Cappies ain't evil they just have a domineering repressive goverment that desires all its original worlds back under its flag, even worlds it had citizens land on while on vacation. Like New Avalon and Strana Mechty, what you don't think Sun Tzu didn't make a claim for ownership after the Star League Defence Force landed there while under his far -way rule?
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Not so much evil, but stupid. Were it not for the Black Dragons and their petty schemes for power, the Kuritans would have been a superpower instead of a failed state.
Okay, so some good things came out of their actions, but they did what they did for the wrong reasons.
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Not playing the CapCom evil is like playing a good ninja1...laaaaaaaaaaaaame.
1 Michael Dudikoff ruined it for everyone, sorry.
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Not playing the CapCom evil is like playing a good ninja1...laaaaaaaaaaaaame.
1 Michael Dudikoff ruined it for everyone, sorry.
I own a copy of the movie on DVD, not its fault its on sale for only $1.99. :D
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Not playing the CapCom evil is like playing a good ninja1...laaaaaaaaaaaaame.
>ninja
>good
Okay, how about Strider Hiryu, then? (Man, I'm on a CapCom roll!)
(http://www.figurerealm.com/userimages/customs/6000/5774-4.jpg)
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He does have a cape, and capes are out....
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He does have a cape, and capes are out....
You know what, I'm just going to keep on posting Capcom characters until you start spelling it "CapCon".
(http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/M/Mega%20Man%209/Everything%20Else/Raw/rock1--article_image.jpg)
Would you say that Mega Man is evil? I mean, look at him! So pixelated.
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A ninja with a cape? Not one who lives for long.
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It's not a cape, it's a SCARF people! Like KAMEN RIDER! Y'know, AWESOME.
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It's not a cape, it's a SCARF people! Like KAMEN RIDER! Y'know, AWESOME.
You aren't a stylish superhero until you're wearing a scarf.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bO4uU-yftgk/SaYjSgmRNQI/AAAAAAAAAVs/4VQEOOTJMpU/s400/kamen_rider_1.jpg)
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Fred Jones is a Capellan?
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Fred Jones is a Capellan?
Whoa man, I haven't mentioned anything about Capellans in this thread at all aside from the spelling and pronunciation of CapCon. I'm the language guy, remember?
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He has a scarf!
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Capcon vs Capcom? Another mystery to solve.
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Wow, this thread crashed quickly. Let me try to get it back on track.
CapCon under Max is your classic crappy third-world dictatorship. The leader is a selfish strongman and the army is corrupt and weak, but he's smart enough to keep things together. Too bad everyone's paranoid and disloyal.
CapCon under Romano is like the DPRK. The leader is a viscous lunatic and everyone is miserable. She's keeping the boat afloat, but is it worth it?
CapCon under Sun-Tzu is an ideal benevolent dictatorship. Things get much, much better for everyone, but let's not forget who's in charge.
Agree/disagree?
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Frankly I thought the thread was trundling along just fine.
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I dont think any of us freedomloving democracy-types would be able to stand living in the Battletech universe. It seems like TPTB quite clearly designed the place to be a crapsack universe.
Only if democracy is your thing.
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Only if democracy is your thing.
There's always the Rim Commonality.
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Some individual Capellans may not necessarily be evil, but the Capellan Confederation is.
I actually think it's quite the opposite. Some individual Capellans may be evil (or insane), but as a whole I think it's just trying to survive and it's Eastern-based culture seems alien in Western eyes. Nothing wrong with trying to survive.
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CapCon under Sun-Tzu is an ideal benevolent dictatorship. Things get much, much better for everyone, but let's not forget who's in charge.
Agree/disagree?
Well, not everyone. I'm sure a lot of conquered folks were happier before (especially the ones that came into the CC as corpses). Plus there are still dissidents and the servitors who still get the bad end of 'benevolent'. And that whole issue with Sunny's sister....
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Well, not everyone. I'm sure a lot of conquered folks were happier before (especially the ones that came into the CC as corpses). Plus there are still dissidents and the servitors who still get the bad end of 'benevolent'. And that whole issue with Sunny's sister....
Well, it's a generalization. I'm sure there were some folks that did real well under Romano. But Sun-Tzu is just about the best monarch you could hope for.
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And why, pray tell, is the Draconis Combine evil?
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/DraconisCombine.jpg)
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CapCon under Sun-Tzu is an ideal benevolent dictatorship. Things get much, much better for everyone, but let's not forget who's in charge.
Agree/disagree?
Sun-Tzu's Capellan Confederation is akin to Doctor Doom's Latveria in the 60's and 70's. A stable society of peace and prosperity... "protected" by the benevolently autocratic rule of its leader, who seeks to maintain the insular nature of the realm by limiting its external relations [as far as the needs of both the military and the State economy will allow] and justifying it as a necessary evil due to the ravening hordes of barbaric opportunists from beyond who wish to breakdown its borders and despoil all of the nation's achieved peace and prosperity with nonsense notions of freedom and liberty.
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(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/DraconisCombine.jpg)
That's suspiciously similar to something somebody said somewhere some time ago.
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Capcon vs Capcom? Another mystery to solve.
You need a catchy subtitle. Like "Capcon vs Capcom: Edge of the Galactopocalypse!"
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Doesn't the Confederation have it bad enough as it is without Megaman collecting all their powers and using them against their bosses?
Although on reflection, that kind-a happens in the Warrior Trilogy. Remember the bit where Justin charged up his arm cannon and summoned his robotic dog?
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There's always the Rim Commonality.
I think you mean Rim Collection. The Rim Commonality is/was part of the FWL
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I think you mean Rim Collection. The Rim Commonality is/was part of the FWL
Derp. You're right. The Rim Commonality is more of a pseudo-democracy.
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Doesn't the Confederation have it bad enough as it is without Megaman collecting all their powers and using them against their bosses?
Although on reflection, that kind-a happens in the Warrior Trilogy. Remember the bit where Justin charged up his arm cannon and summoned his robotic dog?
Yes. He then proceeded to totally vaporize Dr. Romano and get it on with that Candace robot.
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(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/DraconisCombine.jpg)
You do realise that the Capellan Confederation is at least as monocultural, yes?
Under Sun-Tzu people were getting eye surgery or changing their names to seem more Chinese, and there was racial tension on top of that directed at anyone who was insufficiently Han.
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You do realise that the Capellan Confederation is at least as monocultural, yes?
Under Sun-Tzu people were getting eye surgery or changing their names to seem more Chinese, and there was racial tension on top of that directed at anyone who was insufficiently Han.
Since when was fashion equal to (xenocidal) facism?
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You do realise that the Capellan Confederation is at least as monocultural, yes?
Under Sun-Tzu people were getting eye surgery or changing their names to seem more Chinese, and there was racial tension on top of that directed at anyone who was insufficiently Han.
Yeah, but that's a recent development and it's not government-enforced. The Combine has been violently monocultural since the Star League.
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Yeah, but that's a recent development and it's not government-enforced. The Combine has been violently monocultural since the Star League.
Indeed. We're talking about the people they had to introduce the Clans to make them look kind of good by comparison for.
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The Combine has been violently monocultural since the Star League.
Ah, you mean this evil empire which gave a large portion of its realm back their sovereignity?
You know, 3034 and FRR?
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Since when was fashion equal to (xenocidal) facism?
I dunno, since it was assumed that non-Chinese Capellans were lesser citizens (if they were citizens at all) and were unworthy of sullying Capellan space with their presence?
For a supposedly monocultural realm, the Combine has a lot of ethinic diversity, including the Azami. And, as others have mentioned, the former Rasalhague District, while part of the greater Combine, never gave up its culture. Nor did it have to.
I have some suspicions as to why the OP believes the Combine is "evil", but they are not based on anything BT-related. If a nation as mono-cultural as the Capellans and which habitually brutalises its own people in a far worse fashion than the Combine ever has, it is beyond hipocrisy to give them a pass and still condemn another nation.
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Bah, all of this revisionist history.
Some young hotshot historian out to make a name for himself: "Oh no, the Capellans aren't evil; they're just misunderstood. Our historical bias has perpetuated a grave injustice to an entire people!"
What next? Amaris really just wanted to be a flower arranger before being rejected from flower arranging school? A newly discovered poll suggesting that 9/10 Smoke Jaguar warriors disagreed with Turtle Bay? ;)
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Well, it's a generalization. I'm sure there were some folks that did real well under Romano. But Sun-Tzu is just about the best monarch you could hope for.
Unless you are one of the ones sacrificed for the greater good. There still is some room to grow in the area of civil liberties.
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I dunno, since it was assumed that non-Chinese Capellans were lesser citizens (if they were citizens at all) and were unworthy of sullying Capellan space with their presence?
Ion Rush, Grand Master of the Blessed Discipline of Warrior Houses and Master of Warrior House Imarra and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Abigail O'Hanlon, Duchess of the Victoria Commonality and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Evadne Rivoli, CEO of Ceres Metals Industries and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Alana Morgaine, CEO of Hellespont Industries and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Arden Baxter, first non-Liao Chancellor. Not Chinese.
Edmund Salindar, second non-Liao Chancellor. Not Chinese.
I have some suspicions as to why the OP believes the Combine is "evil", but they are not based on anything BT-related.
"There were fifty of them, all women, ragged and dirty and held in single file by lengths of rope draped from neck to neck for the column's length.... Showing little emotion, the women plodded forward in line, heads bowed, wrists bound behind their backs.... Nagumo himself had picked out women, saying that they would be lifted offworld in a Kurita freighter, transported to another Combine world as hostages for the behavior of the rest. Pallonby wondered if it wasn't more likely that they were bound for joyhouses on Luthien or elsewhere across Kurita's domain. Women such as these would bring good prices from the right buyers, and someone like Nagumo would be certain to have those connections."
Mercenary Star, by William H. Keith (second printing), p. 290
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Ion Rush, Grand Master of the Blessed Discipline of Warrior Houses and Master of Warrior House Imarra and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Abigail O'Hanlon, Duchess of the Victoria Commonality and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Evadne Rivoli, president of Ceres Metals Industries and member of the Prefectorate. Not Chinese.
Arden Baxter, first non-Liao Chancellor. Not Chinese.
Edmund Salindar, second non-Liao Chancellor. Not Chinese.
Early history prior to the rise of the Chinese Liaos is poor evidence.
As for the others, as long as you are Chinese, you can be whatever ethnicity you like as a Capellan. The same as in the Draconis Combine, which has Scottish and Indian samurai. The rather key difference is in their attitudes towards (re-) captured peoples, especially recently. I suggest you have a look at the Xin Sheng movement.
"There were fifty of them, all women, ragged and dirty and held in single file by lengths of rope draped from neck to neck for the column's length.... Showing little emotion, the women plodded forward in line, heads bowed, wrists bound behind their backs.... Nagumo himself had picked out women, saying that they would be lifted offworld in a Kurita freighter, transported to another Combine world as hostages for the behavior of the rest. Pallonby wondered if it wasn't more likely that they were bound for joyhouses on Luthien or elsewhere across Kurita's domain. Women such as these would bring good prices from the right buyers, and someone like Nagumo would be certain to have those connections."
Oh, right. Because the Capellan Confederation certainly doesn't have anything comparable. Especially not institutionalised slavery, that would be wrong.
Except, I guess, the Servitor Caste.
War is not pretty, and there are raging jerks in every House. It's a sad fact of human nature. The difference here is that the scene you point to is most emphatically not representative of the Combine as a whole. And it's the thought processes of a character who hates the Combine, not a neutral (or even necessarily correct) source.
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I'll just quietly watch this entire dirty cavalcade and smile, thanks for the entertainment.
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Early history prior to the rise of the Chinese Liaos is poor evidence.
As for the others, as long as you are Chinese, you can be whatever ethnicity you like as a Capellan. The same as in the Draconis Combine, which has Scottish and Indian samurai. The rather key difference is in their attitudes towards (re-) captured peoples, especially recently. I suggest you have a look at the Xin Sheng movement.
Not sure what you mean by early history. Ion Rush is the one who helped Candace Liao assassinate Chancellor Romano during the Clan Invasion. And those non-Chinese members of the Protectorate are serving during Xin Sheng and they don't look or pretend to be Chinese as far as I can tell. As for the line of succession:
Victor Edwar Liao 2202 - 2240
Irenna Liao 2240 - 2260
Emile Faulkner Liao 2260 - 2315
Emile Falkner Liao 2315 - 2356
Franco Martell Liao 2356 - 2367
Franco Martell Liao 2367 - 2395
Kurnath Liao 2395 - 2399
Aleisha Liao 2399 - 2415
Arden Baxter 2415 - 2425
Stephen Edward Liao 2425 - 2450
Duncan Liao 2450 - 2452
Jasmine Liao 2452 - 2477
Edmund Salinder 2477 - 2482
Raxal Liao 2482 - 2482
Hendrik Liao 2482 - 2520
Kalvin Thomas Liao 2520 - 2530
Mica Liao 2530 - 2542
Salicia Liao 2542 - 2551
Terrence Liao 2551 - 2571
Ursula Gabriel Liao 2571 - 2599
Normann Aris 2599 - 2611
Sundermann Liao 2611 - 2663
Androsar Liao 2663 - 2719
Warex Liao 2719 - 2760
Barbara Liao 2760 - 2795
Sandol Quinn 2795 - 2801
Ilsa Liao 2801 - 2828
Laurelli Liao 2828 - 2860
Dainmar Liao 2860 - 2866
Otto Liao 2866 - 2917
Merlin Liao 2917 - 2942
Tarlak Liao 2942 - 2950
Ingrid Liao 2950 - 2980
Tormax Liao 2980 - 2990
Maximilian Liao 2990 - 3030
Romano Liao 3030 - 3052
Sun Tzu Liao 3052 - 3113
Daoshen Liao 3113 - present
You know, for being so racist, the Liaos give their kids a lot of non-Chinese names. I'm still waiting for First Prince Liu Kang Davion to take the FedSuns throne.
It's a good thing that the Davions don't have the problem of cultural centrism and prejudice. Just ask Justin Xiang. I... I mean, Justin Allard.
Oh, right. Because the Capellan Confederation certainly doesn't have anything comparable. Especially not institutionalised slavery, that would be wrong.
Except, I guess, the Servitor Caste.
A member of the Servitor Caste can work their way into citizenship (unlike, say, the Freebirths of the Clans). And members of Far-East Asian cultures (tend to) accept their position in society---which is an alien concept in Western cultures that push individuality and personal achievement. Hence my original concept that the Capellans are not evil, just misunderstood because they're being viewed through Western eyes.
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You do realise that the Capellan Confederation is at least as monocultural, yes?
The Draconis Combine has a strict policy of enforced monoculturalism, where deviants like the Azami or Rasalhagians are placed in what amounts to reservations and watched constantly for signs of disloyalty.
The Capellan Confederation is a cultural melting pot in the form of Plato's republic ruled by traditionally blond haired, green eyed chinese who wore kilts, played bag pipes, wielded katanas, and run a Russian based secret police force. That his current Celestial Wisdom has chosen to celebrate an aspect of Capellan culture common in the Sian Commonality which made up the majority of the survivng Confederation post 4th Succession War does not constitute a Combine style cultural purge. The only evidence we have of racism with the Xin Sheng movement is Kuan-Yin Allard Liao whining about ONE GUY in a lowly administrative position. HB:HL makes it clear that fad-Sinofication has only taken off in Sian Commonality and is virtually unseen elsewhere. Compared to the numerous documented cases of deliberate cultural oppression and re-education in the Combine and during periods wide-spread public violence against Asains in the Federated Suns, I'd argue that the Confederation is actually the most ethnically and culturally tolerant of the three.
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Actually that was a one time event. While i cannot and will not excuse the fact it happened, considering the events happening at the time of the Purge it
is at least understandable. Scared people sometimes do hateful and awful things.
I must admit i've found it amusing seeing someone elses faction be tarred with the same brush we've been continually, that they are a monoculture. I'd no
more accuse the Liaos of it as i would my own. But if there's one thing that humans do so well it is stereotyping, and let's face it some folks just cannot get past
it least of all on this board.
A degree of primacy in the CapCon towards one particular ethnic background/culture should not be seen as it being some sort of exclusive deal, nation wide.
I do not make that kind of assumption, the Russian and Celtic influences within the Capellan Confederation are seldom far from my mind when thinking of it.
Just as the Spanish and Russian influences in my own faction, are none too far from my thinking either.
The Draconis Combine, that's a somewhat special case. We know it's not an exclusively Japanese influenced society, the Azami and Rasalhagians remain the
notable exceptions to the rule. But go back and read the original house books, and you'll find other less noteable or quotable examples if you look properly.
This thread, like the "atrocities" go around is merely the same tired stuff breaking out all over again. It is a universe of startling diversity, but more often than
not it has occasion to pigeonhole factions by certain traits when necessary. Look beyond that, or don't. I ought to plead for breaking the circle of ignorance
and reactionary statements, but honestly who bloody well listens?
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Rorke's hit it on the nose.
No house is truely a monoculture, all have hero's and high ranking members of other ethnic backgrounds.
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I thought that the entire neo-samurai thing was freely professed to be an engineered cultural phenomenon, much like all of the neo-Chinese, neo-German stuff going on in the other empires.
Hell, even under Takashi, a particularly intolerant SOB, you still had a non-Japanese like Vasiliy Cherenkoff in charge of the entire Dieron district.
Grieg Samsonov (not Japanese, to my knowledge) was the Warlord of Galedon District.
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The thing about the neo-Japanese movement in the Combine is that it wasn't perpetuated by cultural forces like similar movements in other houses, but by police forces from the government. That's what sets it apart.
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Early history prior to the rise of the Chinese Liaos is poor evidence.
I hope you realise how ridiculous that reads.
I suggest you have a look at the Xin Sheng movement.
I suggest you read Handbook: House Liao. It seems like almost all your knowledge of the Confederation is from Stackpole novels.
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The thing about the neo-Japanese movement in the Combine is that it wasn't perpetuated by cultural forces like similar movements in other houses, but by police forces from the government. That's what sets it apart.
House Steiner & House Liao - "German/Chinese culture is cool!"
House Kurita - "Act Japanese or you get the hose again!"
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That's why we made "Turning Japanese" by the Vapors our national anthem.
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No luck with the ladies, eh?
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Not every Liao was blond and blue eyed wearing kilts and playing backpipes wielding a Katana ;)
The Sun Tzu CC has changed a lot towards a society enforced chinese monoculture.
The Elsies are not realy german. Just speaking the language and having a german name with some pejudices thrown in doesnt make one german.
But that can be applied to most if not all factions.
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Not every Liao was blond and blue eyed wearing kilts and playing backpipes wielding a Katana ;)
The Sun Tzu CC has changed a lot towards a society enforced chinese monoculture.
The Elsies are not realy german. Just speaking the language and having a german name with some pejudices thrown in doesnt make one german.
But that can be applied to most if not all factions.
Nobody is really anything anymore. Everyone is pretending to one degree or another... just some of them by force.
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I wounder how much of the "evils" a Great House does are what the writer needed as a foil to the Great House his/her hero came from? The original boogie men were the Combine, then they were "cool" because we had the Confedration to kick, and then the Clans, and then the Blakists, and now the Republic. One could say the only real black hat was the Rim World Republic, even the SL had it's flats. So I would like to think that everyone has a failure of humanity in their past. So let us argue that all are stained and leave the blame game alone!
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I guess it depends if its ethnically or if its cultural.
Now looking at the newer information about the CC it seems that imperial chinese culture and chinese ethnicity are socialy necessitations.
The DC on the other side enforces "just" the imperial japanese culture.
There are no evil Successor states or Periphery nations. Some are just more oppresive then the others and all got "evil" rulers sometimes in addition.
The RWR wasnt evil it was the Amaris Clan and the people willing to conduct the ordered atrocities without a second thought.
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I guess it depends if its ethnically or if its cultural.
Now looking at the newer information about the CC it seems that imperial chinese culture and chinese ethnicity are socialy necessitations.
The DC on the other side enforces "just" the imperial japanese culture.
The CC's trend seems to be more of a bottom-up movement, rather than top-down like the Combine. Now, if it remains this way, that's extremely sad and signals a very unfortunate turn for both the CC and also the game universe, where for all its faults, we could at least say people weren't really very racist anymore.
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Not necessarily racist, just a temporary, or permanent fashion necessitation. It may be a bottom-up movement but one that is endorsed and advertised by the government.
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Now looking at the newer information about the CC it seems that imperial chinese culture and chinese ethnicity are socialy necessitations.
Not at all. Point in fact, Handbook House Liao makes it clear that the fad of cosmetic sinofication and cultural adoption was mostly confined to the Sian Commonality and mostly ignored by the rest of the Confederation.
Considering the Chancellor is married to a black hispanic woman and will have mixed children, I can't really see any plausible argument in favor of real racism being in any way endorsed by the Confederation proper.
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two words
Xin Sheng
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There seems an unspoken assent to the notion that the domination of one culture over another is less odious than the domination of one bloodline over another. That has not been universally regarded in all times and places, and may not be the prevailing opinion in the far future.
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two words
Xin Sheng
Most Capellans speak Chinese. The official language of the Capellan Confederation is Chinese. Why shouldn't the phrase used to rally the people together likewise be in Chinese?
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So are we in general agreement that the Capellans are not evil?
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Realy as if it was just because its a chinese word not the whole picture about Xin Sheng ::)
I dont dislike the CC, its just the rabid fans that drive me further und further away from the faction.
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There's plenty to like about the Confederation. For one, it's a place where political protesters reflexively obey "keep off grass" signs.
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There's plenty to like about the Confederation. For one, it's a place where political protesters reflexively obey "keep off grass" signs.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
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Despite the Capellans being 27% or greater pure evil, it should be noted that a lot of Russian culture was lost when the CC proved incapable of protecting its citizens in the Tikonov region and equally incapable of re-securing them. With generations born under non-Capellan rule, their link to their former nation is quickly dissolving, helping propel a less varied culture.
Also, the Liao line has significant non-Han genetic donations, I think the Chancellor and his sister owe their looks more to the previous Chancellors' choice in spouses over the Liao lineage.
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So are we in general agreement that the Capellans are not evil?
Capellans, maybe
The Confederation is definately evil.
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Capellans, maybe
The Confederation is definately evil.
And remember, it's spelled "Con"federation, not "Com"federation, so it should be truncated as CapCon, not CAPCOM.
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CrapCon?
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Realy as if it was just because its a chinese word not the whole picture about Xin Sheng ::)
The same argument applies. When the majority of Capellans are Chinese and thus adhere to Chinese culture, why is it wrong to celebrate it as "Capellan" any more than it is wrong of the Lyrans to celebrate "German" culture, one which on the whole they mostly adopted, as all the founding states of the Lyran Commonwealth had strong British origins.
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So are we in general agreement that the Capellans are not evil?
Welcome to the Confederation, my brother! Let's advance towards a brighter future together!
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The only thing about the LC been german is the language and that only on an administrative level. Many planetary populations dont even speak german as their first language.
If you realy think the LC is to the same level german as the Xin Sheng CC is chinese then you certainly know nothing even remotely about germany.
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The only thing about the LC been german is the language and that only on an administrative level. Many planetary populations dont even speak german as their first language.
If you realy think the LC is to the same level german as the Xin Sheng CC is chinese then you certainly know nothing even remotely about germany.
Well, the language. And the noble titles. And the similarity of some of the founding states origins to pre-WWI Germany. And some of the noble's stories. And the industrial focus. And some of the army styles. Oh, and some of the uniforms.
See what I did there? Yeah, you can find as many or as few similarities between real world nations and BT factions as you'd like. For every single faction. Even including those geeky Niops folks and the white-hattedness of Randis.
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And remember, it's spelled "Con"federation, not "Com"federation, so it should be truncated as CapCon, not CAPCOM.
Can we say ConStar?
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Only when referring to the Blakists.
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Nope sorry, just because some people think germany looks like a bavarian october fest theme park does not make it one.
Edit:
If the LC is anything then the stereotypical "bavarian = german" with a lot of prejudices and lack of knowledge. Even the german names used for some Lyrans are most of the time absolutely hilarious.
My point is still that the LC is far less german then the Xin Sheng CC is chinese or the DC japanese.
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Nope sorry, just because some people think germany looks like a bavarian october fest theme park does not make it one.
Uh, nobody said that? That was kind of my point. ;)
It's all about interpretation, and that's something each fan handles differently. You could write tomes on a comparison between "fill in the blank era" Germany and the LC. You could also just as easily still be completely mistaken. There's so many points of data there that two different fans will end up interpreting those points differently. Outside of numerical facts and figures, once you start delving into the fluff, you've left the realm of fact and journeyed into the realm of fan opinion. I'd be willing to wager that no two fans share the exact same vision of the Lyrans (or any other faction) without any variation whatsoever. One fan will see the LC as Germany in space. Another is going to see it as very faint caricature of some stereotyped German traits and notable points in history. Neither opinion is wrong. Neither one is making a statement on Germany, simply on the LC.
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Uh, nobody said that? That was kind of my point. ;)
It's all about interpretation, and that's something each fan handles differently. You could write tomes on a comparison between "fill in the blank era" Germany and the LC. You could also just as easily still be completely mistaken. There's so many points of data there that two different fans will end up interpreting those points differently. Outside of numerical facts and figures, once you start delving into the fluff, you've left the realm of fact and journeyed into the realm of fan opinion. I'd be willing to wager that no two fans share the exact same vision of the Lyrans (or any other faction) without any variation whatsoever. One fan will see the LC as Germany in space. Another is going to see it as very faint caricature of some stereotyped German traits and notable points in history. Neither opinion is wrong. Neither one is making a statement on Germany, simply on the LC.
Sorry did first press on reply not on modify out of sheer stupidity
True to some degree but only if you dont look closely enough. Opinins are never wrong because ya know thats why they are opinions every one has one.
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You know, I think some one should make a Master List of Atrocities and War Crimes for each Faction. Anyone says anything, just point them to that as evidence that everyone is evil in one form or another.
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My point is still that the LC is far less german then the Xin Sheng CC is chinese or the DC japanese.
To you, sure. To another fan? Maybe not. That was the point of differences of opinion. :)
Look hard enough and you'll find whatever you like to fit your opinion.
You know, I think some one should make a Master List of Atrocities and War Crimes for each Faction. Anyone says anything, just point them to that as evidence that everyone is evil in one form or another.
This. +1,000.
These are some awful nations with the shortest memories ever. :)
Heck, even Randis seems a little questionable.
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To you, sure. To another fan? Maybe not. That was the point of differences of opinion. :)
Look hard enough and you'll find whatever you like to fit your opinion.
Sure if someone whants to believe that as I wrote above "germany is nothing more then a bavarian october fest theme park" then thats his opinion but it doesnt make it one.
The moon isnt made of cheese just because its your opinion.
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Sure if someone whants to believe that as I wrote above "germany is nothing more then a bavarian october fest theme park" then thats his opinion but it doesnt make it one.
The moon isnt made of cheese just because its your opinion.
And neither does it make the CapCon or the Combine bad imitations of ethnic restaurants from American films. But to some folks, they could certainly appear to be. As for the moon analogy, that would fall under those numbers and facts I mentioned earlier and not personal interpretation. ;)
I have a feeling we likely won't agree on this, as this seems more like a personal axe you have to grind. I just don't see a problem with "Whatever works in your game." If you view the faction differently than I do, it doesn't necessarily make either one wrong. Nor does it make a statement about anything other than the fictional faction.
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You know, for being so racist, the Liaos give their kids a lot of non-Chinese names
Strangely enough, the ruling Kurita line has had Indian and English first names for their scions, too.
It's a good thing that the Davions don't have the problem of cultural centrism and prejudice. Just ask Justin Xiang. I... I mean, Justin Allard.
His full name is Justin Xiang Allard. While in the Capellan Confederation, he wanted to appear as though he was doing everything in his power to distance himself from his Federated Suns roots- including his family ties to the head of the Davion intelligence community.
A member of the Servitor Caste can work their way into citizenship (unlike, say, the Freebirths of the Clans).
You need to learn a lot more about the Clans, too.
And members of Far-East Asian cultures (tend to) accept their position in society---which is an alien concept in Western cultures that push individuality and personal achievement. Hence my original concept that the Capellans are not evil, just misunderstood because they're being viewed through Western eyes.
I know all about cultural relativism. Why is it that the Capellan Confederation, which treats its peoples in a fashion far worse than the Combine, is OK but the (marginally, perhaps) other guys are not?
I hope you realise how ridiculous that reads.
What, that arguing it is less than fair to cite leaders from before the Confederation went super-Chinese is evidence against it being a monoculture afterwards?
I suggest you read Handbook: House Liao. It seems like almost all your knowledge of the Confederation is from Stackpole novels.
Yeah, not like my BT collection consists of those and nothing else.
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I have no axe to grind... no wait there are one or two but not here, but to be honest bavaria is my/our texas ;)
"Whatever works in your game" is fine but does not change whats depicted in universe.
The CC did get a raise in chinese culture during/after Xin Sheng. To each his own opinion but thats what happened in universe.
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Strangely enough, the ruling Kurita line has had Indian and English first names for their scions, too.
A strawman argument. I said the Dracs were evil (and they are: suppressing your inferior culture since 2319). You said the Caps were cultural-centric, but I think there's a distinction there.
His full name is Justin Xiang Allard. While in the Capellan Confederation, he wanted to appear as though he was doing everything in his power to distance himself from his Federated Suns roots- including his family ties to the head of the Davion intelligence community.
Tell that to Michael Hasek-Davion. My point was that Allard suffered racism in the FedSuns which is rather apparent in Warrior: En Garde.
You need to learn a lot more about the Clans, too.
My point is that a freebirth will always be a freebirth, just as a member of the scientist caste will always be a member of the scientist caste. Freebirths may be acceptable in some clans and even be able to serve in frontline units, but a freebirth is still a stravag freebirth. In the Capellan Confederation, you're not a lifelong slave---anyone can become a citizen.
You don't need to take it personally. You can become a citizen, too, you know.
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I'll concede: if BT were D&D, the Caps would be Lawful Evil maybe. Maybe Lawful Neutral.
I'm glad BT isn't D&D.
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So there'd be Lawful Stupid?!, Gotcha ;) ;D
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So there'd be Lawful Stupid?!, Gotcha ;) ;D
No, because that's another way of saying Lawful Chaotic, which would cause the character's head to explode.
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A strawman argument. I said the Dracs were evil. You said the Caps were cultural-centric.
Incorrect. You said the Draconis Combine was evil; I pointed out that everything the Combine does to be so labelled is practiced in the Capellan Confederation, with added brutality from the state to boot.
Tell that to Michael Hasek-Davion. My point was that Allard suffered racism in the FedSuns which is rather apparent in Warrior: En Garde.
Which is relevant because?
My point is that a freebirth will always be a freebirth, just as a member of the scientist caste will always be a member of the scientist caste. Freebirths may be acceptable in some clans and even be able to serve in frontline units, but a freebirth is still a stravag freebirth.
The fact that a number of Clans now allow Freebirths to compete for Bloodnames and/or re-assign their castes through their lives notwithstanding, of course. A member of the Civilian Castes is also going to be substantially better treated than a Servitor, and has all the rights and priveleges of any Spheroid citizen aside from, in cases where it is even relevant, the right to vote.
In the Capellan Confederation, you're not a lifelong slave---anyone can become a citizen.
And in the Combine, even the lowest social ranks are all citizens, as is essentially the case with the Clans.
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The CC did get a raise in chinese culture during/after Xin Sheng. To each his own opinion but thats what happened in universe.
Sure, agreed. Where exactly was I arguing against that?
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Ah, you mean this evil empire which gave a large portion of its realm back their sovereignity?
You know, 3034 and FRR?
That was an entirely strategic move. The Kuritas granted Rasalhague independence because they wanted a buffer state and because ComStar offered to drastically upgrade the DCMS if they gave it up. Giving the FRR their sovereignty back was in no altruistic.
Unless you are one of the ones sacrificed for the greater good. There still is some room to grow in the area of civil liberties.
Very true. I guess that's the problem with any state as centralized as the CapCon: no matter how well-meaning and skilled the supreme ruler is, lots of people are going to get ground up in the gears of state. That's the price of Capellan progress.
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You did not ;) but its still part of my some more some less argument. Believe it or not but we are not the only two posting here even to our best efforts ;D
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The only thing about the LC been german is the language and that only on an administrative level. Many planetary populations dont even speak german as their first language.
The only thing about the CC being Chinese is the names of stuff, and that's only on a superficial level. Many planetary populations don't even speak Chinese as their first language.
If you realy think the LC is to the same level german as the Xin Sheng CC is chinese then you certainly know nothing even remotely about germany.
None of the Battletech states accurately reflect actual countries. CC = China is just as ludicrous as LC = Germany
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And in the Combine, even the lowest social ranks are all citizens, as is essentially the case with the Clans.
The Combine doesn't really have citizens, they have subjects. The Capellan Confederation exists for the greater good of it's Citizenry, a co-operative, by choice association. The Draconis Combine exists for the greater good of it's Coordinator. Everyone else exists just to be of service in the least shameful way possible before dying.
All Citizenships are not equal. Let's not pretend it is just as valuable to be a citizen of someplace like Yeman or Somalia as it is to be a citizen of say, the U.S. or Canada.
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Did I ever write that the successor states are mirrors of RL nations? No I didnt I wrote that some are more some are less influenced by RL nations.
So please stop pretending that I did.
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If you realy think the LC is to the same level german as the Xin Sheng CC is chinese then you certainly know nothing even remotely about germany.
That certainly seems to me that you were trying to draw deliberate parralels between real life nations and Battletech ones. If you weren't, then I'm afraid I misunderstood you.
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Incorrect. You said the Draconis Combine was evil; I pointed out that everything the Combine does to be so labelled is practiced in the Capellan Confederation, with added brutality from the state to boot.
Dude. Relax. Battletech isn't real. I said the Draconis Combine was evil, not Australia. And I said it to be facetious. This thread is "The Capellans are not evil," not "The Draconis Combine is evil." And your assertion that you "pointed out everything the Combine does [that is evil] is practiced in the Capellan Confederation" is not very accurate anyhow. But, again, Battletech is just a game.
Which is relevant because?
It's relevant in that my original statement was a dry attempt to demonstrate that there is cultural-centrism in the FedSuns. Your response was to summarize a subplot of the Warrior Trilogy, which wasn't germane to what I was talking about. So I brought my original comment back into context.
The fact that a number of Clans now allow Freebirths to compete for Bloodnames and/or re-assign their castes through their lives notwithstanding, of course. A member of the Civilian Castes is also going to be substantially better treated than a Servitor, and has all the rights and priveleges of any Spheroid citizen aside from, in cases where it is even relevant, the right to vote.
The only people who vote in Clan society are those who were born in artificial wombs and have a last name.
And in the Combine, even the lowest social ranks are all citizens, as is essentially the case with the Clans.
The Combine doesn't have "citizens." It has subjects. Indeed, the very concept of "citizens" is really only emphasized, in my view, by the Capellans.
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Capellans, maybe
The Confederation is definately evil.
I really need for you to explain this apparent definition of the Confederation as definitely evil, Minemech.
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That certainly seems to me that you were trying to draw deliberate parralels between real life nations and Battletech ones. If you weren't, then I'm afraid I misunderstood you.
Sure as if it was the first time you did that ::)
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Sure as if it was the first time you did that ::)
Well, you certainly don't make it easy with remarks and emoticons like that.
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Sure as if it was the first time you did that ::)
I really didn't think that it was possible to lower the level of discourse on this subforum any further than it already had been.
Congratulations, sir. You have proven me wrong.
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(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/Capellans.jpg)
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I will say, as much hate as Stackpole is getting in this thread, my dislike of the CC came far more from the writing of Coleman and Gressman. Stackpole gave us the sneaky, politically astute Sun-Tsu. You know, The Liao who Won.
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The only people who vote in Clan society are those who were born in artificial wombs and have a last name.
Thats a lot better than the Successor States, where nobody gets to vote.
None of the Battletech states accurately reflect actual countries. CC = China is just as ludicrous as LC = Germany
I do not think it is very ludicrous after all. However, I do not think the Successor States are perfect cariactures of modern-day cultures and countries, but rather caractures of modern-day cultures viewed through the eyes of the writers.
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I really need for you to explain this apparent definition of the Confederation as definitely evil, Minemech.
The totalitarianism, and fascist sense of leader(Not to be mistaken for total fascism, it was more like Dr. Doom style) were enough for me. It is very important to note that in the Sourcebook House Liao they said something very similar to what Musolini said, that you actually have a remarkable amount of freedom so long as you do what they want(Paraphrased, under Introduction under "The Current Situation"). Mussolini(paraphrasing) said that your freedoms came from the state and could be pulled away at state's[Leader's] whim should he view it a threat to the greater good, but still claimed that you had a remarkable amount of freedom within the state. The state also tends to use the fascist form of corporatism which says yeah your free enterprise, but we control you and you do everything ordered, or you will be seized and your individual people dealt with.
The Servitor class is something that like a lot of evil things sounds pretty from without, but is rotten to the core with secret prison planets with permanent slave labor as well as known hidden facilities underground on Brighton. The very fact that servitors are the largest caste alone(SB:HL, given they aren't officially a caste to hide this) should be enough without those facts. The majority have to deal with their sub-human treatment for life unless liberated by another Successor State.
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The Servitor class is something that like a lot of evil things sounds pretty from without, but is rotten to the core with secret prison planets with permanent slave labor as well as known hidden facilities underground on Brighton. The very fact that servitors are the largest caste alone(SB:HL, given they aren't officially a caste to hide this) should be enough without those facts. The majority have to deal with their sub-human treatment for life unless liberated by another Successor State.
Servitors have been acknowledged by Chancellor Sun-Tzu Liao and he has made great strides to alleviate their suffering, per HB:HL. Further, many sources, including the Battletech RPG have indicated a significantly lower ratio of servitors than that which the poorly worded and oft-inaccurate HLSB implies. Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with telling society's dead weight to pull their own load, but it's not as bad as you seem to be reading it as.
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The Servitor class is something that like a lot of evil things sounds pretty from without, but is rotten to the core with secret prison planets with permanent slave labor as well as known hidden facilities underground on Brighton. The very fact that servitors are the largest caste alone(SB:HL, given they aren't officially a caste to hide this) should be enough without those facts. The majority have to deal with their sub-human treatment for life unless liberated by another Successor State.
Pg. 63 -- Handbook: House Liao:-
Xin Sheng touched every caste of the Confederation, even (or perhaps especially) the massive numbers of servitors. Though Sun-Tzu had abolished the servitors’ near-slavery and enforced a wage for them, Xin Sheng formalized and expanded on those reforms. The rising power of the servitor caste over Capellan society by 3067 was built on the broader rights granted them in 3060. In fact, many sociologists have begun to theorize about the end of the servitor caste’s existence in the next several generations as they more or less breed themselves into the ranks of the Commonality.
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After reading the Warrior Trilogy I did not have a high opinion of the Capellans. However after reading Double-Blind, Binding Force, Threads of Ambition and Binding Force I began to look at the Capellans as less evil and more like the poor kid who got picked on and finally got to stick a knife in the bully's back.
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An improvement in one of a great deal of charges. Still Touring the Stars makes it known they have none of the rights and privileges of normal citizenship.
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An improvement in one of a great deal of charges. Still Touring the Stars makes it known they have none of the rights and privileges of normal citizenship.
That's older information, however. And newer lore, like the portion I quoted above, likely trumps the older stuff written about Capellan servitors in the "Touring the Stars" archive.
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The difference is that they happen during different eras. Sun-Tzu could make remarkable reforms involving the servitor system and even possibly destroy it just to have his successor reverse it at a later time.
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The difference is that they happen during different eras. Sun-Tzu could make remarkable reforms involving the servitor system and even possibly destroy it just to have his successor reverse it at a later time.
I think TPTB likely took that into consideration when they said:- "In fact, many sociologists have begun to theorize about the end of the servitor caste’s existence in the next several generations as they more or less breed themselves into the ranks of the Commonality."
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That's older information, however. And newer lore, like the portion I quoted above, likely trumps the older stuff written about Capellan servitors in the "Touring the Stars" archive.
Or it is due to being written from two different perspectives at two different times. The perspective of 3067 when Handbook Liao is fictional written: the servitors could very well if trends had continued may have seen the Servitor Caste eliminated. And "Touring the Stars" is written after the Jihad when the Capellans needed cheap almost slave like labor to rebuild, and being that the state is always right in the Capellan Confederation due to the Kovian Doctrine in guiding the destiny of mankind, the servitors had to go back to work to rebuold for the Greater Glory of Greater Humanity.
Honestly to me personal, I find the political philosophy of the Confederation, idea of the Greater Humanity from the Kovian Doctrine, to be evil. The idea of having to submit without any choice to the ideas and whims of the state or face servitorhood rubs me the wrong way. It's not voluntary or laziness to disagree with a government and then be thrown to become a servitor to change your mind at the best. At worst, they throw you into one of the Mask's prison stations if you already have your citizenship. Just add in the command economy ruled from Sian, and I just really don't like the Confederation as a state from its foundation to how one buys a gallon of milk. But then again, that's just my two bits.
But at the same time, you can flip it back on me and say since the Suns government isn't planning for its people's whim and perils that they are derelict in their duties to Greater Humanity and thus are evil. Honestly debating who's evil and not requires a baseline to judge by, and you aren't going to get one unless you have common philosophies to judge them by. To the average citizen of the Suns, the Capellan government is evil since it denies the individual. To the Capellan servitor, the Sun citizen is a wild beast who needs guidance from the glory that is House Liao to prevent its decay into the perils of a free market and laissez faire attitude on governance from House Davion. In the end, it's a personal opinion on whether any of the states are evil from the Clans to the Pirate Kingdoms.
So to me, the Capellan Confederation is Evil for being too controlling of its people! To someone else, the Capellan Confederation are liberators trying to free their worlds from the oppression of the Six Liberties or Free World League Constitution. It's all subjective.
The difference is that they happen during different eras. Sun-Tzu could make remarkable reforms involving the servitor system and even possibly destroy it just to have his successor reverse it at a later time.
Or the Jihad! Reversal of Fortunes that kind of thing. It's not that hard to imagine the Chancellor reversing himself due to the Jihad making it impractical to free the servitor well ever. Plus, you know the Republic well that offers perfectly nice new servitors to throw into that caste once you retake those worlds.
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Do the cappies have good beer? I like beer.
Davions suck.
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The same argument applies. When the majority of Capellans are Chinese and thus adhere to Chinese culture, why is it wrong to celebrate it as "Capellan" any more than it is wrong of the Lyrans to celebrate "German" culture, one which on the whole they mostly adopted, as all the founding states of the Lyran Commonwealth had strong British origins.
Well, we realized the kind of garbage we'd be expected to eat and ditched that right quick.
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Or it is due to being written from two different perspectives at two different times. The perspective of 3067 when Handbook Liao is fictional written: the servitors could very well if trends had continued may have seen the Servitor Caste eliminated. And "Touring the Stars" is written after the Jihad when the Capellans needed cheap almost slave like labor to rebuild, and being that the state is always right in the Capellan Confederation due to the Kovian Doctrine in guiding the destiny of mankind, the servitors had to go back to work to rebuold for the Greater Glory of Greater Humanity.
The application of the Korvin Doctrine proved to be one of the Confederation's strengths during the great economic depression of Aris' reign. And the fact that later Chancellors would expand and/or embrace the reapplication of the Korvin Doctrine as they each individually saw fit, certainly lays the foundational possibility for a similar argument being made by Sun-Tzu during the reconstruction after the Jihad.
But I don't see it, personally. Given greater rights and privileges, which increasingly seems to be the case for the servitors [as the quoted portion reveals], isn't something Sun-Tzu is likely to take away, even when considering the economic upheaval caused by the Jihad. His people come first and foremost. And besides, the Confederation after the Jihad has allies to draw assistance from in order to help rebuild, unlike in the times past when the State largely alone during times of severe economic crisis.
An argument could be made for the application of a "servitor-lite" concept, though, I suppose. Perhaps Sun-Tzu could utilise the Korvin Doctrine to institute a program for uncooperatives and/or unproductives to volunteer as part of a "Post Jihad Rebuilding Corps" in return for a standard wage... as per the quoted portion of text I referenced earlier.
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Well, we realized the kind of garbage we'd be expected to eat and ditched that right quick.
So, are the people in Skye rebellious because they are still expected to eat haggis?
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So, are the people in Skye rebellious because they are still expected to eat haggis?
I think it's because they're required to wear skirts.
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I think its ironic that so much has been mad about how scary the Mask is, and yet from everything I've read it seems to me that the Steiner Loki are much much worse. And then the ISF . . . Really every nation has its internal security force, its just that unlike everyone else the Mask just doesn't care about hiding what it is. Though keep in mind that with Sun-Tzu's rise, the Mask has really taken steps to become an interstellar spy agency. I wonder what will happen when they start cross-training with the Ebon Magistrate?? :o
Now, the CapCon is my favorite faction (well in every era where the St. Ives Compact isn't in existence as a separate state), but I wouldn't want to live there. Wouldn't want to live in any of the nations. And as far as I can tell the supposed castes within the CapCon are much more fluid than say the castes in the Combine or the Clans. And as far as a repressive society, the CapCon is pretty much like everywhere else: the overall government might give you certain freedoms, but really it all comes down to your planetary noble. And the Caps (and the Davions) are the only ones that seem to have a structure in place for citizens to get bad nobles taken care of.
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I think the Capellans are a fun faction because they're the underdog. Who doesn't like the underdog?
And don't get me wrong---I also like the Dracs... even if they are evil.
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The Caps as the underdog? Not since the 4th Succession war. These days they are on par with everyone else and by the dark ages they are the top dogs.
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I think the Capellans are a fun faction because they're the underdog. Who doesn't like the underdog?
I don't automatically like the underdog due to the fact that sometimes the character or faction just deserves to lose like the Mighty Ducks.
The Caps as the underdog? Not since the 4th Succession war. These days they are on par with everyone else and by the dark ages they are the top dogs.
That kind of bothers me. Somehow, I just don't see a FedCom like fall coming any time soon for the Cappies.
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The Caps as the underdog? Not since the 4th Succession war. These days they are on par with everyone else and by the dark ages they are the top dogs.
I'd say not since Sun Tzu took became Chancellor. But that's what's so awesome: when the underdog becomes top dog. Sorta like the 2004 Red Sox. Otherwise, you're stuck as the Chicago Cubs or something.
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I'd say not since Sun Tzu took became Chancellor. But that's what's so awesome: when the underdog becomes top dog. Sorta like the 2004 Red Sox. Otherwise, you're stuck as the Chicago Cubs or something.
You mean suddenly the media wouldn't stop talking about you and everyone else outside Boston just wanted for them to shut up and you to go away?
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There was that period that was simply intolerable where all I heard from Sport Junkies was the Red Sox this or the Patriots that. Being only an occasional watcher of sports, I'm still sore about the White Soxs beating my favorite boyhood baseball team, the Astros, in 2005 to end "their curse."
The reason that I mention this is that at some point every dog has its day. And the sun will set on all winning streaks eventually. One just has to bind their time, and even the Chicago Cubs will eventually win the World Series. The exact year will be 3069 after the Master orders that they win the World Series. And it was due to manipulating baesball for the eternal underdogs that the whole Blakest Empire fell apart. And now you know the rest of the story. ;)
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Yeah, totalitarian states are sooo awesome especially when you're the tyrant :-X [notworthy] ::)
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Yeah, totalitarian states are sooo awesome especially when you're the tyrant :-X [notworthy] ::)
Well, being First Prince would be pretty cool, I guess.
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Yeah, totalitarian states are sooo awesome especially when you're the tyrant :-X [notworthy] ::)
"It's good to be the King."
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That kind of bothers me. Somehow, I just don't see a FedCom like fall coming any time soon for the Cappies.
I do, but it will be at the hand of an even worse faction: The Republic of the Sphere.
If it means the Republic dies, I do not mind if the Cappies stay top dog for a long time.
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I think the Capellans are a fun faction because they're the underdog. Who doesn't like the underdog?
You know, I would've thought I'd reach a point in my life where hearing this yet again wouldn't bother me so much.
But as it stands now, I really have grown so weary of this common misconception.
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You know, I would've thought I'd reach a point in my life where hearing this yet again wouldn't bother me so much.
But as it stands now, I really have grown so weary of this common misconception.
Maybe I should have mentioned that I don't play much past 3050.
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Really, its tough to have an evil society, people mainly care about their own little lives.
In the mid 18th century, the English decided to set up a penal colony way across the water. Despite starting with a bunch of criminals and other settlers that ran off the natives for the most part, we still don't have an evil society. They may talk funny and have a strange culture, but they just really care about their little lives.
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Had I even the faintest inkling that I might consider imaging myself wanting to be a Davion, I would use that caveat much more creatively.
"I like House Davion because the are an hero. Brave and outnumbered underdogs. Did I mention I don't play in any era but early 1st succession war?"
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Had I even the faintest inkling that I might consider imaging myself wanting to be a Davion, I would use that caveat much more creatively.
"I like House Davion because the are an hero. Brave and outnumbered underdogs. Did I mention I don't play in any era but early 1st succession war?"
Unfortunately I only own six mechs from TRO 3058, four from TRO 3075 (that my mother-in-law bought me for Hannukah) and the rest are 3050 or earlier. When I was playing in the early 90s, that's where I was at and until two years ago I had taken a 15 year sabbatical from Battletech. So I reckon I'm lovin' it in the past. And I'm looking forward to slowly moving through the timeline and being top dog.
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Maybe I should have mentioned that I don't play much past 3050.
That's fair enough.
I'd considered that as a possibility when I initially read your reply. But I ran with what I said regardless, which was probably poor judgement on my part.
I apologise if I offended your commentary in anyway.
In the mid 18th century, the English decided to set up a penal colony way across the water. Despite starting with a bunch of criminals and other settlers that ran off the natives for the most part, we still don't have an evil society. They may talk funny and have a strange culture, but they just really care about their little lives.
Indeed. Look to the caricatures of my own home country that still suggest Australia is a Land of Evil and/or Corrupt Convicts. ;D
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That's fair enough.
I'd considered that as a possibility when I initially read your reply. But I ran with what I said regardless, which was probably poor judgement on my part.
I apologise if I offended your commentary in anyway.
No worries, mate. Ya know, other than the TROs, I bought my first Jihad book last week---Jihad Hot Spots: 3072---because it was in new condition at Half Price Book Store. I'm still living in the past, but I'm starting to get into the later eras.
Indeed. Look to the caricatures of my own home country that still suggest Australia is a Land of Evil and/or Corrupt Convicts. ;D
People think Texans still ride horses to work. Which is silly. Nowadays, we go by covered wagon.
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People think Texans still ride horses to work. Which is silly. Nowadays, we go by covered wagon.
And that we live in a huge desert. I tell you, what. I haven't seen a dang Sandworm in two years, y'all.
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Please. What we say about you here is far worse.
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For one, nobody thinks Texans "work", unless you count theft and collecting unemployment checks.
HAHAHAHAHAHA, I keed, I keed. Is good joke, ja? I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!
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For one, nobody thinks Texans "work", unless you count theft and collecting unemployment checks.
HAHAHAHAHAHA, I keed, I keed. Is good joke, ja? I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!
I reckon that explains why our economy is the strongest in the nation. Which reminds me, I'm insulted that there isn't a star system called Texas. It should be a rugged Periphery planet of tough laser-slingering alien cattle herders.
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One BattleTech reference per American state. You guys already used yours on a WarShip.
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I reckon that explains why our economy is the strongest in the nation. Which reminds me, I'm insulted that there isn't a star system called Texas. It should be a rugged Periphery planet of tough laser-slingering alien cattle herders.
There's a factual You might recheck your figures there. Anyway, there was a system named New Texas. It was completely sterilized either by the SLDF or the Successor States. Not sure on which side of the Exodus it happened on, but it was in that window.
Most places that were "Space America" got killed off in the backstory quite deliberately.
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There's a factual You might recheck your figures there. Anyway, there was a system named New Texas. It was completely sterilized either by the SLDF or the Successor States. Not sure on which side of the Exodus it happened on, but it was in that window.
Most places that were "Space America" got killed off in the backstory quite deliberately.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/37642856/CNBC_s_Top_States_For_Business_2010_And_The_Winner_Is_Texas
(http://www.cnbc.com/id/37642856/CNBC_s_Top_States_For_Business_2010_And_The_Winner_Is_Texas)
I suspect that the Word of Blake may have something to do with it: "Texas powers past the tough times on the strength of its economy—top-ranked in our Economy category four years in a row. The Texas economy is the 15th largest in the world, according to government figures; larger, for example, than all the Scandinavian nations combined. The Lone Star State is home to 64 Fortune 500 companies, more than any other state, in a wide variety of industries. So while the state’s last win in 2008 came with oil at a record $145 a barrel—a natural tailwind for the largest industry in Texas—the state managed to do even better this year despite the fact that oil is trading at roughly half that price. Texas has also managed to avoid the worst of the real estate crisis, according to reporter Ashanti Blaize of KXAS-TV. 'While in other major cities we’ve seen condo high-rise projects either slowed or come to a screeching halt, in Dallas we've seen an influx of some of those projects,' says Blake."
KXAS is the identifier for our local HPG. I think Ashanti Blaize is a ROM agent.
I would've killed off Space America, too. But not Texas. I can't imagine in 1,000 years somebody not naming a Planet after Texas. "Texas, it's like a whole other planet."
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Everyone who likes Space America also died.
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My wife and I have considered moving to Texas in the future although the presence of Capellans is a factor :D
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My wife and I have considered moving to Texas in the future although the presence of Capellans is a factor :D
Well, if the Capellans don't kill you, the heat sure will.
And I hope y'all aren't in to Space America....
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There's a factual You might recheck your figures there. Anyway, there was a system named New Texas.
New Dallas, you mean?
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Eh, whatever. I was close enough.
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New Dallas, you mean?
Which begs the question of whether there was a New New York. :D
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I was under the impression from the Jihad material that Americans weren't gone, just gone as an interstellar power. You think of the Great Houses and you think of Japanese, Chinese, English, French, Scottish, German, Slavic, etc. The Hegemony's best worlds were American, and still are American regardless of the flag flown over them. The Word used this resentment and cultural difference with the Great Houses to bring the core worlds on board with the WoB Protectorate.
Regardless, space America is still out there, just not bossing everyone around.
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I was under the impression from the Jihad material that Americans weren't gone, just gone as an interstellar power. You think of the Great Houses and you think of Japanese, Chinese, English, French, Scottish, German, Slavic, etc. The Hegemony's best worlds were American, and still are American regardless of the flag flown over them. The Word used this resentment and cultural difference with the Great Houses to bring the core worlds on board with the WoB Protectorate.
Regardless, space America is still out there, just not bossing everyone around.
I always saw the Free Worlds League as a purple North Americanesq empire.
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Well, if the Capellans don't kill you, the heat sure will.
And I hope y'all aren't in to Space America....
I have friends who live in Needles, California. It is a place famous for setting new world record temperatures with an s.
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I always saw the Free Worlds League as a purple North Americanesq empire.
I dunno. I've been following FWL since the original handbook series. I don't understand why so many people this it's American. Maybe the Sirian Holds, but it's most certainly European. Marik Commonwealth is mostly Eastern European, Andurien is Italian, Oriente is Spanish. There's of course some Asian influences, being on the CapCon border. Then there's Regulus, mostly Indian. America... i dunno.
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The structure of government and culture resemble the early United States a lot and what it could have been had some framers succeeded on the whole president for life thingy. It's major manufacturing power which is something the US would later be as well as having the greatest force projection power militarily (Best projection power despite not having the most troops) of all the Successor States. It is also a maritime power which is very important.
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I always saw it as more like the EU, or at the time of it's writing.... the leftovers of Europe. Whereas the administrative subdivisions of other states butt up against one another, look at the League map, it's all a bunch of states floating around in the larger FWL territory. Each has it's own banks, laws, law enforcement, etc. To me that's more like the EU than Articles of Confederation United States. That, and Parliament has to share power with a military dictatorship ala Francoist Spain.
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I dunno. I've been following FWL since the original handbook series. I don't understand why so many people this it's American. Maybe the Sirian Holds, but it's most certainly European. Marik Commonwealth is mostly Eastern European, Andurien is Italian, Oriente is Spanish. There's of course some Asian influences, being on the CapCon border. Then there's Regulus, mostly Indian. America... i dunno.
America started off as a european colony of mixed pedigree (immigrants came in from all over Europe and Africa, heres some examples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_United_States#Population_and_immigration_AD_1500-1600)), and the Articles of Confederation produced a central government so weak that you pretty much the thirteen states with their own currency, laws, and government. This later resulted in the founding fathers realizing that the articles of confederation created a way too weak central government, which resulted in the Constitution. Much of early American history was a battle between the Federalists, whom believed in a stronger central government, and the anti-federalists who beleived the states should have all the power. Even the founding fathers were divided about this.
Each has it's own banks, laws, law enforcement, etc.
Actually, that is exactly how the Articles of Confederation United States was. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_American_currency)
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America started off as a european colony of mixed pedigree (immigrants came in from all over Europe and Africa, heres some examples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_United_States#Population_and_immigration_AD_1500-1600)), and the Articles of Confederation produced a central government so weak that you pretty much the thirteen states with their own currency, laws, and government. This later resulted in the founding fathers realizing that the articles of confederation created a way too weak central government, which resulted in the Constitution. Much of early American history was a battle between the Federalists, whom believed in a stronger central government, and the anti-federalists who beleived the states should have all the power. Even the founding fathers were divided about this.
Actually, that is exactly how the Articles of Confederation United States was. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_American_currency)
Something we don't realize is the word "State" actually means nation or country (e.g., the State of Israel).
Under the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Unity, we were very akin to the E.U.---the first three articles of the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Unity:
ARTICLE I
The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of America".
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
ARTICLE III
The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever.
* * *
ARTICLE XI.
Canada acceding to this confederation, and adjoining in the measures of the United States, shall be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this Union; but no other colony shall be admitted into the same, unless such admission be agreed to by nine States.
The Articles go on to describe the circumstances of the States sending their own foreign embassies, going to war and raising their own armies, et cetera (sorry---but I couldn't resist not including the article about Canada).
The Constitution greatly strengthened the power of the federal government, but the states were still sovereign. It really wasn't until the 14th Amendment that the 10th Amendment was seen as a mere "truism" and the term "state" began to be synonymous with "administrative area." Of course, the states are still technically "sovereign."
I think that the FWL is far closer to the United States of America under the Articles of Confederation.
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I know that, but those seem like problems that could be attributed to almost any nation forming from preexisting states. It just seems like a vary small part of the American character to home in on. There's exactly 2 references to America in HM:FWL and 1 mention of America in HBHM, Procyon, the Trinity world of Cerillos and the initial Exodus.
Now, there are a few things going for the America argument:
Free market capitalism
Provincial recruiting and arming policies (national guards)
Naval power (though to be fair, the U.S. was only a naval power after world war I, and FWL's naval supremacy was both short lived and mostly thanks to WoB)
SAFE being about as much a self defeating organization as the CIA
Widespread corporate influence and political involvement
Things not American:
Theocratic governments
Hereditary titles
Unicamiral Parliament
Many many many many references to the European/Indian/South American cultures of the League compared to the fleeting references to isolated North American cultures
Military dictatorship
The Home Defense Act
No checks and balances in terms of justice (The Supreme Court of the FWL operates at the behest of Parliament, which can be dissolved by the Captain-General)
So you could say it's there, some influences. But outright calling the League Space America is like saying the FedSuns are Space America because they have European backgrounds, separate March governments and have land superiority for most of modern CBT history. I say leave America out of the whole thing, they exist as other people's property in the Chaos March.
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I know that, but those seem like problems that could be attributed to almost any nation forming from preexisting states. It just seems like a vary small part of the American character to home in on. There's exactly 2 references to America in HM:FWL and 1 mention of America in HBHM, Procyon, the Trinity world of Cerillos and the initial Exodus.
Now, there are a few things going for the America argument:
Free market capitalism
Provincial recruiting and arming policies (national guards)
Naval power (though to be fair, the U.S. was only a naval power after world war I, and FWL's naval supremacy was both short lived and mostly thanks to WoB)
SAFE being about as much a self defeating organization as the CIA
Widespread corporate influence and political involvement
Things not American:
Theocratic governments
Hereditary titles
Unicamiral Parliament
Many many many many references to the European/Indian/South American cultures of the League compared to the fleeting references to isolated North American cultures
Military dictatorship
The Home Defense Act
No checks and balances in terms of justice (The Supreme Court of the FWL operates at the behest of Parliament, which can be dissolved by the Captain-General)
So you could say it's there, some influences. But outright calling the League Space America is like saying the FedSuns are Space America because they have European backgrounds, separate March governments and have land superiority for most of modern CBT history. I say leave America out of the whole thing, they exist as other people's property in the Chaos March.
I think a source book somewhere that describes North America as one of the origins of the FWL---but again, FWL isn't my faction. I think Davion is clearly British---indeed, I imagine most of the FedSuns having that evil British accent (like the bad guys in Star Wars).
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The Home defense Act could be compared to the War Powers Act. It would just be in a different form since the Governor of a state is its commander in chief.
The Continental Congress was a unicameral body lead by the President of Congress
Also the Free Worlds Navy was the toughest of the Successor States throughout its life, excluding the Terran Hegemony and the brief time between 3025 and 3058 (The Aggie pushed it back the League's way). Also during the jihad the Free Worlds memberstates still had some descent naval capabilities. I don't know how much of that they have kept.
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Honestly all the factions got some dose of America in them from Americans descendants moving from the inner colonies to the outer or what would become the Great Houses. There are American named planets across the Inner Sphere. The Davion family came from North America. Well specifically Canada is where the Davion family came from before Scotland and Avon, France. No one is really Space America, but the closest is the Rim Collection who have an elected president for a certain term and legislature.
The Combine got several worlds that are really American like Midway. The Capellan honestly got the same deal with worlds like Old Kentucky. However, the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns got the lionshare of the legacy other than the Terran Hegemony. The Lyran Commonwealth got a larger portion of the legacy as well, but there is something different about their attitude. Then again, I always got a Hanoverian England Period attitude from them.
But the two big inheritors were the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns. Free Worlds League got the whole legislature and democratic principles. The Suns marginalized their legislature. Their inheritance is something different; plus it can easily come from England as well though it is with an American twist. Though the League has a constitution in its Document of Incorporation, I'm not sure what is in it, but one odd thing is in there that allows Parliament the ability to readjust rights. However, that does not seem to include Lockean Rights. In fact, I'd say that the highest power in the Free Worlds League is Parliament when it comes to what are the individual citizens civil rights which can be altered. Which is honestly closer to British Parliaments. The Home Defense Act is closer to the pre Cold War America raising state militias rather than a true standing army in times of need.
Now before the Lyran fans go crazy, I know the Document of Acceptance has some form of rights for the citizens, but it is vague and not really well defined either. The Suns to my knowledge is the only state that has a Lockean list of civil rights aka the Six Liberties spelled out in the Crucis Pact. It's the closest to any of the governments in Battletech to the American Bill of the Rights since it defines what the FedSuns government can't do to its citizens. And in fact in addition to speaking English is probably the leading reasons why a lot people make the assumption that it is Space America. Other than the argument that since it was the antagonist fighting against the Cold War evil stand-ins that it became Space America.
The truth is the Suns was founded on similar lines as the USA, but due to alterations, it became Space Camelot. It isn't Space France either. The problem with calling the Suns Space France is that it is not Republican France of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. And it is not the France of Louis the XIV of "Je suis l'etat." That spirit is honestly embedded in the Capellan Confederation in the idea of the Chancellor being the only interpreter of Greater Humanity, and thus the position of Chancellor becomes the embodiment of the Capellan state.
That's not true with the Suns. Davion First Princes are bound by the law in the Suns, and it was why Katherine, Edward the Terrible, and the Varneys faced such problems in the Suns when they tried to change things. All tried to take away the rights of the people of the Suns, and each of those groups were defeated by popular movements eventually lead by another member of the Davion family. Then again, the populace is armed as well, so it's hard to be an absolute dictator in the Suns if you break the Six Liberties.
However, what makes the Suns different from America is the adoption of nobility and the President of the Suns becoming the First Prince. Which is something that happen to all of the protopowers mostly due to probably to the sheer amount of time that it took to administer a national election. Plus, the Suns is highly clothed in the ideas of well Camelot. (That is also why I have a distaste for the novel, the Ideal War. It mostly ignores that the Suns is basically Space Camelot that many names are taken from Arthurian Legend and that it was highly detailed in the original Housebook and the Warrior Trilogy. Plus eventually due to the Free Worlds League lack of knowledge about Arthur which is a plot point in the Ideal War, that faction gets Camelot named warships. UGH! Oh well, Yvonne got them back when she named that captured Blakest vessel, the Excalibur. Oh and the Knights of the Inner Sphere got killed. Yeah!)
But the Steiner did get one thing of America, they got Dixie and vague form of checks and balances that doesn't often work that well i.e. Alesandro Steiner and Katherine Steiner-Davion.
So in conclusion, the Free Worlds League got the antebellum USA's state issues. The Steiners got Dixie and probably southern cuisine to go with it. The Draconis Combine got planet names and probably descendants of the USA though everyone else did as well. The Capellan Confederation got moonshine from Old Kentucky. And the FedSuns got Lockean Rights.
And the Clans got a rock from the Terran Hegemony that spelled out how to be Space America as well. Nicholas promptly ground it up and went in a totally different direction.
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The Six Liberties are ideas given form in a document that governed a precursor state. That's definitely more in line with British tradition than anywhere else, which is governed by a collection of documents rather than just one. For all the damage Stackpole did to the FS having unique character, the source materials do know where to take their cues from.
(The Articles of Acceptance do actually define the rights of Lyran citizens and the duties of an Archon but I'm sure you didn't know that).
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The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France. It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.
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The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France. It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.
A friend of mine described the FedSuns with a different historical (20th Century) metaphor, with respect to their military expansionism, but it would probably be to inflammatory to repeat here.
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I think we'll all agree that the most evil faction is CLEARLY Niops. They must be stopped before they conquer everything with their enormous brains.
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The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France. It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.
...while the peasantry scrabbles in the mud to make a living. Soldiery and dirt farmers, that's the FedSuns in a nutshell.
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The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France. It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.
Except the imposing "freedom" by the sword was a Revolutionary French concept as well. How else do you explain seizing of the Rhineland in 1794,Italy in 1796, and other engagements till Napoleon decalred himself Emperor in 1802 which are called French Revolutionary Wars? The real problem with comparing Napoleonic France and the Federated Suns is where power was derived from. Napoleon loved to use plebiscites to make it seem that he was a popular supported by the people. The best comparison to Napoleon would be Simon who declared himself First Prince. The problem is that Simon's power was derived from amending the Crucis Pact via the High Council which is a totally different process.
Also, the problem with saying that the Suns is France utterly or Napoleonic France is that it doesn't seem like Napoleonic France. Again, I merely have to bring up the fact that Napoleon still spread the concepts of the French Revolution which was defined in the Rights of Man and are defined as Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Though Liberty is in there, it is overshadowed by equality and brotherhood which are concepts more espoused by the Capellan Confederation and Greater Humanity. The Suns are defined more by the concepts of John Locke in life, liberty, and property which are British or American.
Honestly, that's why I have the problem with calling the Suns, France in Space. It has people who speak French, but it doesn't have a French style of government or even its ideals which defines its liberties. And then I realized that the Suns got several things from America, France, Britain, and Spanish and Italian cultures. Though it is mostly from a Western Civilization tradition, however what unites all of these cultures is that most of them sheer some sort of legacy in Arthurian Mythos. So, the Suns is Space Camelot. (The provinces of France along the English coast have traditions that deal with Arthur as well considering many of those people came from people chased out of Britain by the Saxons. Americans brought some traditions to Arthur as well though nothing that has ever been worth noting.) And it is the best way to describe it because subscribing to one nation as the Suns, it is the reuniting of cultures influenced by Arthurian Mythos back together. Though honestly that's my interpretation, but I feel that it is better than saying that it is Napoleonic France or America in Space.
The Six Liberties are ideas given form in a document that governed a precursor state. That's definitely more in line with British tradition than anywhere else, which is governed by a collection of documents rather than just one. For all the damage Stackpole did to the FS having unique character, the source materials do know where to take their cues from.
(The Articles of Acceptance do actually define the rights of Lyran citizens and the duties of an Archon but I'm sure you didn't know that).
Well, I have to agree with you that I forgot about the Second Convent. The problem is that the sourcebooks don't indicate if a new constitution was written under Simon. His Principality was legally enacted through the High Council and probably steering from his father in law, but I can't for the life of me find any indications of a new constitution. I assume a new charter came or he amended a existing one. However, the legal authority of the Six Liberties has never been in question especially since the Old Bailey allows them to be used as legal means for civil distress.
And yes, Vash I am aware of the Articles of Acceptance defining the rights of the citizenry of the Commonwealth. I just can't define if there are any natural rights in there. From what I can tell, it mostly lists the layout of the government like Articles I-III of the U.S. Constitution and how citizens interact with it just not natural right like freedom of speech or property right. It has never been written down whether a citizen has the right to a gun by the Articles. That is what I think is remarkable about the Six Liberties; those liberties defines natural rights in the Suns.
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Except the imposing "freedom" by the sword was a Revolutionary French concept as well.
I don't see that as an "except".
The real problem with comparing Napoleonic France and the Federated Suns is where power was derived from. Napoleon loved to use plebiscites to make it seem that he was a popular supported by the people. The best comparison to Napoleon would be Simon who declared himself First Prince. The problem is that Simon's power was derived from amending the Crucis Pact via the High Council which is a totally different process.
Paul Davion didn't travel by horse drawn carriage either, but that doesn't negate the similarities of military dictatorship in Monarchist trappings upheld through show voting and paying lip-service to democratic principles.
Also, the problem with saying that the Suns is France utterly or Napoleonic France is that it doesn't seem like Napoleonic France.
None of the Inner Sphere states are "Space" any existing nation. Of historical states, I simply feel that ideally and functionally the Federated Suns best resembles Napoleonic France, albeit one with a number of British cultural trappings.
Again, I merely have to bring up the fact that Napoleon still spread the concepts of the French Revolution which was defined in the Rights of Man and are defined as Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Though Liberty is in there, it is overshadowed by equality and brotherhood which are concepts more espoused by the Capellan Confederation and Greater Humanity. The Suns are defined more by the concepts of John Locke in life, liberty, and property which are British or American.
Egality is defined as "social and political equality". That is most definitely not a Capellan virtue. Capellans hold to the Sarna Mandate - all act to their best aptitude, leadership by those best qualified. The Confederation does not see all human beings as deserving of equal treatment. Some have helped their fellow man, others have not, or have done them harm. Some are good leaders, some are better followers. Each gets treated as suits them best. It is the Federated Suns where everyone, even the nobles, are supposedly beholden to the same laws and every man gets a say in his governance.
Fraternity is quite simply, brotherhood. I think you'd find it difficult to argue that any modern nation doesn't consider the idea of Fraternity one of their virtues. A nation that does not value its solidarity is a nation bound for dissolution. Fraternity and Solidarity are most certainly Davion and Federated Suns values. Were they not, they would not have fought several Civil Wars, or have gone to war to prevent the secession of Malagrotta.
Though it is mostly from a Western Civilization tradition, however what unites all of these cultures is that most of them sheer some sort of legacy in Arthurian Mythos.
I think if you asked most members of Western Civilizations today what their defining traits were, the Arthurian Mythos would probably rank pretty low down. I love the story of King Arthur, but it's a pretty Medieval tale, not a basis for a society. Anyone can call something "Excalibur" or "Pendragon", but it doesn't really define a society. It's a veneer. A very attractive veneer, but a veneer nonetheless. There are no Knights of the Round Table in the Federated Suns. No Sword in the Stone. Indeed, as time has advanced we've seen the knights of the Suns give way more and more to professional citizen-soldiers, the ideal of Napoleonic France, where a soldier's birth does not define his role on the battlefield.
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Freedom of speech and assembly are both guaranteed by the Articles of Acceptance, so that's at least two in there. And as far as gun ownership goes, I don't think a government with battle armor is particularly troubled as to your ability to buy a .45 auto.
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Paul Davion didn't travel by horse drawn carriage either, but that doesn't negate the similarities of military dictatorship in Monarchist trappings upheld through show voting and paying lip-service to democratic principles.
The problem with that is there is a difference between dictator and a monarch. A monarch is defined and restrained by the law. Most of the time, a dictator is someone elected to supreme power for a certain period of time usually associated with Republics. I'd call Lucien Davion a dictator, but when his successor became President it really was already a monarchy. And just to add the word tyrant to the mix, the word is associated usually with leaders swept to power by a mob that has been given absolute control.
Honestly, I would be loathe to define any of the leaders of the Inner Sphere as tyrants. I'd define the Capellan Chancellor as a Totalitarian Monarchy.
Egality is defined as "social and political equality". That is most definitely not a Capellan virtue. Capellans hold to the Sarna Mandate - all act to their best aptitude, leadership by those best qualified. The Confederation does not see all human beings as deserving of equal treatment. Some have helped their fellow man, others have not, or have done them harm. Some are good leaders, some are better followers. Each gets treated as suits them best. It is the Federated Suns where everyone, even the nobles, are supposedly beholden to the same laws and every man gets a say in his governance.
Fraternity is quite simply, brotherhood. I think you'd find it difficult to argue that any modern nation doesn't consider the idea of Fraternity one of their virtues. A nation that does not value its solidarity is a nation bound for dissolution. Fraternity and Solidarity are most certainly Davion and Federated Suns values. Were they not, they would not have fought several Civil Wars, or have gone to war to prevent the secession of Malagrotta.
I'd give you legal equality for the Suns, but that again is more of a British trait than French. Some of the French Revolutionaries had different understandings of egality and fraternity such as the radical Jacobites and in their radical Terror, and that's who I associate with the phrases made famous by the French Revolution. The Suns specifically promotes the Lockean ideals of life, liberty, and property in the Six Liberties. So my point still stands.
I think if you asked most members of Western Civilizations today what their defining traits were, the Arthurian Mythos would probably rank pretty low down. I love the story of King Arthur, but it's a pretty Medieval tale, not a basis for a society. Anyone can call something "Excalibur" or "Pendragon", but it doesn't really define a society. It's a veneer. A very attractive veneer, but a veneer nonetheless. There are no Knights of the Round Table in the Federated Suns. No Sword in the Stone. Indeed, as time has advanced we've seen the knights of the Suns give way more and more to professional citizen-soldiers, the ideal of Napoleonic France, where a soldier's birth does not define his role on the battlefield.
Knights of the Federated Suns is a knightly order of the the Suns which was first mentioned in the original sourcebook. But honestly the argument of veneer is a bit of weak argument since all cultures could defined as merely a mask that hides the true bestial nature of humanity from certain points of view. Honestly, the term actually used in the original sourcebook and handbook for Melissa Davion's military reform is Model Army which is English Roundhead lingo.
Honestly, the reason that I dubbed it Space Camelot is that it allows for inclusion for French, Britain, and to lesser extent America. All cultures that have been influenced by the stories of King Arthur. Just like you like to define it closest to Napoleonic France, it's fan reasoned though I give it to you that you are way closer to making your opinion canon than I'll ever be at this point. However, both are fan made comparisons at this point. And honestly, marches is a term used by Charlesmagne Frankish Empire and Alfred the Great's Wessex.
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The problem with egality is its sheer relativism. A Capellan may say all have an equal chance for citizenship and may choose a path like any other with the same restrictions all others would face in their country with their choices and strengths. In PoliSci I read just how many ideologies play with that word well.
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Honestly all the factions got some dose of America in them from Americans descendants moving from the inner colonies to the outer or what would become the Great Houses. ...
Let us not forget the Periphery, from an European perspective the Taurian Concordat and the Outworlds Alliance feel very American in concept.
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Honestly all the factions got some dose of America in them from Americans descendants moving from the inner colonies to the outer or what would become the Great Houses.
So Space America was a virus? Sweet! ;D
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So Space America was a virus? Sweet! ;D
The kind that has outbreaks with itching and burning sensation.
And besides, everyone knows that Americans have become Canadians. Therefor, only Canadians ruled the Hegemony.
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For better or worse the Battletech universe is a product of 80’s USA.
It’s for some people easy to identify with a faction but as soon as you get deeper into the fluff there is more than one moment where you shake your head.
There is much America in it and a lot of prejudices and a mishmash of historical influences. That’s what makes it difficult to pin them down to a specific historical era.
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My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese. But they miscalculated---they neglected the Korean market. Based on Blizzard's experience, if BT were made up today, I'd create a Korean-based Great House. And I'd keep the rights to the computer market and create a massive computer strategy game with each faction having its own mechs and harvesting resources and what have you. And I'd sign contracts for at least two BT television channels in Korea.
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My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese. But they miscalculated---they neglected the Korean market. Based on Blizzard's experience, if BT were made up today, I'd create a Korean-based Great House. And I'd keep the rights to the computer market and create a massive computer strategy game with each faction having its own mechs and harvesting resources and what have you. And I'd sign contracts for at least two BT television channels in Korea.
Is tabletop gaming at all popular in Korea? I thought it was the equivalent of PC gaming in Japan.
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Is tabletop gaming at all popular in Korea? I thought it was the equivalent of PC gaming in Japan.
PC gaming is a niche market in Japan (since the majority of them spend a good deal of their days on trains), but it's not bordering non-existent like tabletop is in Korea. Not dead, though--skip to 1:16 in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNyAzmWmcL8
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So it's more like arcades in America, then.
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So it's more like arcades in America, then.
Yes. For the most part, countries in the Far East are the same in terms of stuff like this. They put much more value on entertainment if it's portable--and also, many people, living so tightly packed together, don't even have the playing space for something like BattleTech.
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Yes. For the most part, countries in the Far East are the same in terms of stuff like this. They put much more value on entertainment if it's portable--and also, many people, living so tightly packed together, don't even have the playing space for something like BattleTech.
Hence the computer game part. You can't have a Korean Great House in the computer version but not thre tabletop version. So put it in the table top game solely to capitalize in Korea's fastidious computer game market.
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Yes. For the most part, countries in the Far East are the same in terms of stuff like this. They put much more value on entertainment if it's portable--and also, many people, living so tightly packed together, don't even have the playing space for something like BattleTech.
Not sure I'd agree with that. Japan, yes, but that's partially a product of their time spent on trains. The Chinese and Koreans love MMOs, primarily on PCs. Korea has a real bizarre love for StarCraft, to boot.
Hence the computer game part. You can't have a Korean Great House in the computer version but not thre tabletop version. So put it in the table top game solely to capitalize in Korea's fastidious computer game market.
I don't think the game universe lends itself much to the style of RTS or MMO that plays well in Korea.
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Not sure I'd agree with that. Japan, yes, but that's partially a product of their time spent on trains. The Chinese and Koreans love MMOs, primarily on PCs. Korea has a real bizarre love for StarCraft, to boot.
Yeah, I might have made too big of a generalization there, and I'm fully aware of the gold-farming market and where it tends to be located. You are correct in stating that PC gaming is bigger in China and Korea--home consoles often weren't even made for those countries back in the day. I do still stand by portable gaming being a bit bigger than home console gaming, since region-locking and lugging a big console over for import isn't such a big hurdle in that case of portable systems.
I don't think the game universe lends itself much to the style of RTS or MMO that plays well in Korea.
I might have to disagree with you on this, actually. There are some really wild types of RTS and MMO games out there, and many of them -are- from Korea. I recall playing the heck out of Shattered Galaxy in my younger years--it was an MMO -and- RTS with customizeable, individually-tracked units and full PvP. Much like an online version of MechCommander.
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Perhaps, but the question is mass appeal, and these days the mass appeal games are pretty clearly defined.
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Davion is only a good place to live if you've got money. God help you if you're poor in the Federated Suns.
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My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese. But they miscalculated---they neglected the Korean market. Based on Blizzard's experience, if BT were made up today, I'd create a Korean-based Great House. And I'd keep the rights to the computer market and create a massive computer strategy game with each faction having its own mechs and harvesting resources and what have you. And I'd sign contracts for at least two BT television channels in Korea.
I agree with you in part - I also think that the people creating the BattleTech universe originally made the conscious decision to try and avoid having any large house or nationstate that read too directly as being "Space America" to avoid the distinct possibility that the greater part of the US audience for BattleTech would end up electing to always play that faction and demanding directly and indirectly for that faction to receive the lions share of product support. I know that BattleTech took off in Germany and the UK as well as the US, but I'd be surprised if the non-US market was a primary concern back when the game system was first being created.
In the introduction to the fiction anthology "Shrapnel", Jordan Weisman says:
In my view of history, a given political situation grows out of several hundred years of decisions and actions by numerous individuals rather than as a result of a single person's influence or power. Thus, I rely on historical events to inspire the backdrops of my fictional universes. For BattleTech, I felt that the struggle among the five Great Houses of the Inner Sphere and the ideal of restoring the glory of the Star League era were analogous to the fighting among the Roman city-states after the fall of Rome. This analogy helped us flesh out our history because I wanted all the sides in the fight to be shades of gray, as opposed to a conflict between good and evil.
House Kurita is a good example of what I had in mind. Though the enemies of the Draconis Combine may consider them to be bloodthirsty, war-hungry maniacs, the Kuritans have their own history, background, and motivations as well as their own perception of who they are. The same goes for House Davion, whose rulers may show up as knights in shining armor or conniving double-crossers, depending on who you talk to. We try to see that each book is written from the fictional point of view of someone in the 31st century. That means players must always pay attention to who is providing the information and then add the appropriate grain of salt.
That was written back in June 1988. The emphasis on creating a universe where the perception of each culture's "good" or "evil" score is subjective isn't one that sits easily with the idea of having a "Space America" in a game about multiple nation-states where the target audience is the US audience... because a lot of those shades of gray would become Space USA = good; everyone else = evil, or at least inferior and badly wanting to be as awesome as Space USA. I think that since Jordan Weisman wrote that introduction, the BattleTech universe has evolved substantially, and that a lot of the changes are a reflection of how much more international the audience for BattleTech is now than it would have been 25 years ago.
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My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese.
If they wrote the game to appeal to the Japanese & Chinese, they royally screwed up. Selling American table-top games in Asia is hard enough without making sure to offend your potential customers by making them the villain & incompetent, respectively, probably the two things both of those cultures fear most.
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That makes an aweful lot of sense BrokenMnemonic.
I think orginaly it was quite skillfully done. While influences were obviously there, no faction was so obviously a real world nation that anyone should have realy been thinking "Here we go again with the national sterotypes." The mixing of racial groups helped I think.
The exception may be the DC, but (IMO) it was always written as a fanboys warped attempt to recreate Fuedal Japan than anything else.
Unfortunately there has been some pandering to sterotypes over the years. (CC probably gets it worst)
Challenger
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If they wrote the game to appeal to the Japanese & Chinese, they royally screwed up. Selling American table-top games in Asia is hard enough without making sure to offend your potential customers by making them the villain & incompetent, respectively, probably the two things both of those cultures fear most.
See, that memo didn't go to the novelists.
I know that BT was released in Japan. I have no clue as to how well it did.
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See, that memo didn't go to the novelists.
I know that BT was released in Japan. I have no clue as to how well it did.
Despite new original art designs designs done for it by Studio Nue (http://www.gearsonline.net/series/battletech/mecha/), it flopped.
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This is either ttrying to sell CBT as something it clearly never was, or the biggest flop in pandering to an audience ever.
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After reading the Warrior Trilogy I did not have a high opinion of the Capellans. However after reading Double-Blind, Binding Force, Threads of Ambition and Binding Force I began to look at the Capellans as less evil and more like the poor kid who got picked on and finally got to stick a knife in the bully's back.
This was the opposite order I read them in. Which contributed to my longstanding Capellanishness. I really couldn't reconcile the plucky underdog CC from the Loren Coleman books with the Fu Manchu CC from Stackpole books
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This was the opposite order I read them in. Which contributed to my longstanding Capellanishness. I really couldn't reconcile the plucky underdog CC from the Loren Coleman books with the Fu Manchu CC from Stackpole books
I would say that the both of you were lead in the exact direction the writer of said novels wanted you to be.
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I think the Capellans are evil solely on the basis of Loren Coleman's writing. Ty Wu Non and all the other "jokey names" characters, along with the Arcade Rangers, do more than all of the other stupid pills induced events relating to the CC to piss me off. I mean the Hong Kong Cavaliers are a parody/homage that's kind of grating, but Nin-Tenh-Do or however the hell you spell it? Total crap. So to recap, the CC isn't evil because they can set fire to everyone's homes and get away with it (metaphorically speaking), but rather their flagship writer can't make names. >:(
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Yeah the slaughter of Republic citizens living on Liao was all an accident. All those civilians were at fault for living on that planet anyways.
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I think the Capellans are evil solely on the basis of Loren Coleman's writing. Ty Wu Non and all the other "jokey names" characters, along with the Arcade Rangers, do more than all of the other stupid pills induced events relating to the CC to piss me off. I mean the Hong Kong Cavaliers are a parody/homage that's kind of grating, but Nin-Tenh-Do or however the hell you spell it? Total crap. So to recap, the CC isn't evil because they can set fire to everyone's homes and get away with it (metaphorically speaking), but rather their flagship writer can't make names. >:(
Many cultures in the real world have traditions of giving children weird or jokey names. I don't think it's "total crap" that the Capellans appear to have a similar custom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/americas/05venez.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4609892.stm
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Yeah the slaughter of Republic citizens living on Liao was all an accident. All those civilians were at fault for living on that planet anyways.
It's called illegal squatting. Doesn't bother me at all. If the Republic didn't want them flambéd, they shouldn't have forcibly relocated them where they didn't belong. If I found some strange people living in my grandparent's house, I'd likely take a weapon to them as well.
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Many cultures in the real world have traditions of giving children weird or jokey names. I don't think it's "total crap" that the Capellans appear to have a similar custom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/americas/05venez.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4609892.stm
Absolutely. You should hear some of the bizarreo names that are now becoming popular in this country....
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It's called illegal squatting. Doesn't bother me at all. If the Republic didn't want them flambéd, they shouldn't have forcibly relocated them where they didn't belong. If I found some strange people living in my grandparent's house, I'd likely take a weapon to them as well.
So, that scene where in the Dark Knight where the Joker tapes guns into those dudes hands... remember that one? Batman comes in, there's dudes in masks with guns, he takes off the mask and realizes that they're being compelled and the guns are taped to their hands. You would shotgun blast them all after that.
You said it yourself: they were forcibly relocated. By and large the victims were forced to be there in the first place. I really expected better of you.
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So, that scene where in the Dark Knight where the Joker tapes guns into those dudes hands... remember that one? Batman comes in, there's dudes in masks with guns, he takes off the mask and realizes that they're being compelled and the guns are taped to their hands. You would shotgun blast them all after that.
Honestly? Probably wouldn't have bothered unmasking them. Not worth the risk, you see.
Do you think all those folks would have peacefully all boarded a dropship bound for New Earth? Would the Republic have even allowed it if they would? They weren't Capellan Citizens and they were more than likely Republic sympathizers. That means they're targets.
In war, you kill the enemy until they're dead. Let's not pretend that carpet bombing and A-bombs existed only to destroy military targets. The Republic could surrender Liao, or we could kill every last one of their people on the planet, their choice. They decided they wanted to make it hard.
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Seems I've missed a few novels in my multi-year absence from the universe. Can anyone update me as to the state of the confederation as it were? I've only read By Temptations and By War and I'm not sure which other ones are must-reads for Capellan sympathizers.
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No shit, they weren't Capellan citizens. They were from all over the Sphere. That was the whole point of the forced relocation, to make it hard for a popular uprising to gain momentum. They wouldn't rise up because a Kuritan doesn't care if Liao is in Capellan or Republic hands. They care if Dieron is in Combine hands but they can't do anything about that.
You did totally miss the point of the analogy, though. That relocation is forced isn't a secret. You already know these people aren't complicit and were, in fact, compelled by force. And yet, you are okay with killing them anyway.
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Many cultures in the real world have traditions of giving children weird or jokey names. I don't think it's "total crap" that the Capellans appear to have a similar custom.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/world/americas/05venez.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4609892.stm
Apparently, in the Netherlands, you can only select your child's name from a list of 7000 pre-approved names. How's that for government intrusion? You heard it here first folks, Capellans have more freedom than the Dutch. [rockon]
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You did totally miss the point of the analogy, though. That relocation is forced isn't a secret. You already know these people aren't complicit and were, in fact, compelled by force. And yet, you are okay with killing them anyway.
1 - Individuals killed were not Capellans and are unlikely to have held any Capellan sympathies.
2 - Individuals have experienced years of anti-Capellan propaganda, first from many of their home regions (Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Blake Protectorate), and then from the Republic itself. Ergo, chances that they are hostile to a potential Capellan restoration are high.
3 - They are not citizens, are unlikely to become citizens, and are a potential obstacle to the liberation of Liao. I'd kill a servitor for blocking a ramp needed to load a dropship with needed military supplies. Why am I going to pamper a bunch of effective servitors who are both non-Capellan and potentially hostile to me? The Capellan Confederation Armed Forces will destroy everything that stands in the way of the proper restoration of the Capellan state. It is their duty to the Capellan people who support them.
If Stone thinks he can prevent the Capellan people of Liao from rising up against him by dumping a bunch of squatters on our property, then we'll burn every last one of them to cinders just to let him know how serious we really are.
If Stone didn't want them dead, he shouldn't have thrown them in a damn Lion's cage.
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Apparently, in the Netherlands, you can only select your child's name from a list of 7000 pre-approved names. How's that for government intrusion? You heard it here first folks, Capellans have more freedom than the Dutch. [rockon]
I want to say France has a similar law, actually.
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Apparently, in the Netherlands, you can only select your child's name from a list of 7000 pre-approved names. How's that for government intrusion? You heard it here first folks, Capellans have more freedom than the Dutch. [rockon]
I think we all know Herb's feelings on the Dutch.
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1 - Individuals killed were not Capellans and are unlikely to have held any Capellan sympathies.
2 - Individuals have experienced years of anti-Capellan propaganda, first from many of their home regions (Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Blake Protectorate), and then from the Republic itself. Ergo, chances that they are hostile to a potential Capellan restoration are high.
3 - They are not citizens, are unlikely to become citizens, and are a potential obstacle to the liberation of Liao. I'd kill a servitor for blocking a ramp needed to load a dropship with needed military supplies. Why am I going to pamper a bunch of effective servitors who are both non-Capellan and potentially hostile to me? The Capellan Confederation Armed Forces will destroy everything that stands in the way of the proper restoration of the Capellan state. It is their duty to the Capellan people who support them.
If Stone thinks he can prevent the Capellan people of Liao from rising up against him by dumping a bunch of squatters on our property, then we'll burn every last one of them to cinders just to let him know how serious we really are.
If Stone didn't want them dead, he shouldn't have thrown them in a damn Lion's cage.
So, only the killing of Capellan citizens is unacceptable? What happens to them when everyone else decides to treat Capellans like they do the Taurians?
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So, only the killing of Capellan citizens is unacceptable?
The responsibility of the CCAF is to protect the Capellan Confederation and her citizens by whatever means necessary. I wouldn't expect or condone them killing other country's civilians for a lark, but if they are being used as a means to prevent the CCAF from accomplishing their mission, then yes, I approve of their killing, just as I would approve of the killing of human shields in a terrorist incident. If you send the message that such a thing will work, it will only be used repeatedly as a means for unscrupulous individuals to circumvent the rules. Gun them all down, and criminals will realize that's not a valid means of defense. For bonus points, auction off the criminals property to benefit those killed by their stupid act.
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What if the best protection of the citizens was to get rid of the Capellan Confederation?
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What if the best protection of the citizens was to get rid of the Capellan Confederation?
How can you protect the citizens of the Capellan Confederation if there is no Capellan Confederation for them to be citizens of?
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The Free Worlds League would be happy to offer its assistance. I doubt the Suns would be stingy either.
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Do you think all those folks would have peacefully all boarded a dropship bound for New Earth?
Probably not.
Though, after the horrors of the Jihad, I would've expected the Confederation to have realised the need for more humane understanding -- and, perhaps -- cooperation with the Republic. Failing that, forced relocation is an acceptable alternative -- even if it is at the barrel of a gun. The Liao Massacre should have only been considered as the LAST alternative.
The fact remains, however, that the Confederation didn't even bother searching for more humane relocation methods. Which makes me wonder about just what the State actually learnt from its experiences in the blackest days of the Jihad.
Would the Republic have even allowed it if they would? They weren't Capellan Citizens and they were more than likely Republic sympathizers. That means they're targets.
Well, the Confederation forces didn't even bother searching for alternatives to slaughter. Certainly, they weren't Capellan citizens, but they're still citizens of some place or another. And with the bloodiness of the Jihad still refresh in everyone's mind, alternatives to civilian slaughter should have been considered first.
In war, you kill the enemy until they're dead. Let's not pretend that carpet bombing and A-bombs existed only to destroy military targets. The Republic could surrender Liao, or we could kill every last one of their people on the planet, their choice. They decided they wanted to make it hard.
I'd say both the Republic and the Confederation were equally guilty for the Massacre of Liao. The former for failing to properly act to ensure the protection of its citizenry, and the latter for resorting to such vile methods without first considering other relocation options.
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The Free Worlds League would be happy to offer its assistance. I doubt the Suns would be stingy either.
The what League? ohhhhhhhhhh
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Probably not.
Though, after the horrors of the Jihad, I would've expected the Confederation to have realised the need for more humane understanding -- and, perhaps -- cooperation with the Republic. Failing that, forced relocation is an acceptable alternative -- even if it is at the barrel of a gun. The Liao Massacre should have only been considered as the LAST alternative.
The fact remains, however, that the Confederation didn't even bother searching for more humane relocation methods. Which makes me wonder about just what the State actually learnt from its experiences in the blackest days of the Jihad.
Well, the Confederation forces didn't even bother searching for alternatives to slaughter. Certainly, they weren't Capellan citizens, but they're still citizens of some place or another. And with the bloodiness of the Jihad still refresh in everyone's mind, alternatives to civilian slaughter should have been considered first.
I'd say both the Republic and the Confederation were equally guilty for the Massacre of Liao. The former for failing to properly act to ensure the protection of its citizenry, and the latter for resorting to such vile methods without first considering other relocation options.
I am not familiar with the details of the massacre, but from what I've gleaned from the posts here, it seems to be an unfortunate return of the days of pointless brutality under Romano Liao. Capellans have an established system of dealing with conquered peoples, namely channeling them into the Servitor Caste. It is what its there for.
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Was the Massacre of Liao even a direct attack on civilians? I was under the impression the reason so many died was because the Cappies launched a big sneak attack in a dense urban setting before the locals could evacuate and thus caused massive collateral damage.
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I am not familiar with the details of the massacre, but from what I've gleaned from the posts here, it seems to be an unfortunate return of the days of pointless brutality under Romano Liao. Capellans have an established system of dealing with conquered peoples, namely channeling them into the Servitor Caste. It is what its there for.
Was the Massacre of Liao even a direct attack on civilians? I was under the impression the reason so many died was because the Cappies launched a big sneak attack in a dense urban setting before the locals could evacuate and thus caused massive collateral damage.
From Dark Age Turning Points -- Liao [pg. 5]:-
When Devlin Stone claimed Liao as part of his new Republic of the Sphere, the citizenry was torn between their Capellan heritage and the excitement of the post-Jihad victory. Though many supported Stone’s ambitions, just as many, if not more, were skeptical and wary of leaving the Confederation. Liao was a major target for the hated Resettlement Directives and Senator Melissa Allard-Liao became a vocal opponent of the policy until its repeal in 3095.
Tensions between the two sides reached a boiling point in 3111. In that year, a young RAF lieutenant named Daniel Peterson allowed a single Capellan DropShip to land on Liao. His hopes for a simple fight to resolve the internal conflict between heritage and progress were dashed when the DropShip disgorged an unexpected number of Capellan troops into the streets of the capital city of Chang-an. The resulting Liao Massacre (also called the Night of Screams) and the subsequent two years of war ultimately claimed the lives of millions of citizens, including Lieutenant Peterson’s own parents and retired Senator Allard-Liao.
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The traitor, then later Paladin himself was haunted by the massacre for which he was paid a bonus by the Confederation for each civilian that was killed if I recall correctly.
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What if the best protection of the citizens was to get rid of the Capellan Confederation?
Oxymoronical. The Citizen cannot exist without the State.
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Oxymoronical. The Citizen cannot exist without the State.
The concept of citizenship can't. The citizens can. It's the State that cannot exist without people, not the other way around.
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The concept of citizenship can't. The citizens can. It's the State that cannot exist without people, not the other way around.
What good is citizenship if there are no state-given benefits for being one? Non-Capellan citizenship is just being part of an extended clique.
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If you need to be bribed into taking something it must not be worth much on it's own.
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What good is citizenship if there are no state-given benefits for being one?
Isn't that what the other Successor States are trying to prove?
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the internal conflict between heritage and progress
I wonder what side the author was on....
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To be fair, Republic life in 3100-3120 was pretty posh by and large.
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If you need to be bribed into taking something it must not be worth much on it's own.
A bribe? OHHHH, so THAT's what you call friendship in the Commonwealth! ;)
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Yes, when you give people things to hang out with you, that's not friendship. It's usually prostitution which, given the quality of your women, I would not recommend availing yourself of in the CapCon.
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Yes, when you give people things to hang out with you, that's not friendship. It's usually prostitution which, given the quality of your women, I would not recommend availing yourself of in the CapCon.
Benefits aren't the only thing keeping people aligned to a nation, however. We as fans obviously have a great selection of choices we can intelligently make, but people in-universe are quite emotionally tied down by history and cultural doctrine, at all levels of the so-called "societies" they live in. And from my experience, large numbers of people? Not very rational. But you can't blame people. Their flock-following doesn't deserve a label of "evil".
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If you need to be bribed into taking something it must not be worth much on it's own.
That's "earned", not "bribed". Capellan Citizenship isn't something you are just handed when your mother craps you out. You earn it by helping your fellow man. The earnings of Capellan Citizens, including their worlds, their benefits, and their rights, are the most sacred thing a Janshi of the CCAF defends.
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That's "earned", not "bribed". Capellan Citizenship isn't something you are just handed when your mother craps you out. You earn it by helping your fellow man.
As I understand it, you don't earn it by helping your fellow man.
You earn it by helping your fellow Capellan.
Rather important distinction there.
It's not about helping humanity. It's about helping the Capellan state. Of course, this is because Capellan state ideology is that the state is to be identified with the 'Greater Humanity', via the Korvin Doctrine, but that just comes down to the Confederation being crazy and, contra the title of the topic, rather towards the evil end of the scale.
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As I understand it, you don't earn it by helping your fellow man.
You earn it by helping your fellow Capellan.
Rather important distinction there.
It's not about helping humanity. It's about helping the Capellan state
The Capellan State is its Citizens are humanity. Anyone can be a Capellan. What the State asks is the question "Will you contribute to your community?" Citizens are those that answer "yes". The activities of a person which affect other communities are of no meaning to the community they inhabit unless it benefits them. Point in fact, I would question the loyalty, not to mention the sanity, of an individual which would provide a service for another community that they would not provide their own.
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The Capellan State is its Citizens are humanity. Anyone can be a Capellan. What the State asks is the question "Will you contribute to your community?" Citizens are those that answer "yes". The activities of a person which affect other communities are of no meaning to the community they inhabit unless it benefits them. Point in fact, I would question the loyalty, not to mention the sanity, of an individual which would provide a service for another community that they would not provide their own.
Does part of joining the Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes include a full frontal lobotomy? Because I like my lobes intact thanks.
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Point in fact, I would question the loyalty, not to mention the sanity, of an individual which would provide a service for another community that they would not provide their own.
This is precisely the point.
Capellan citizenship, whatever else it's about, isn't about service to humanity. The Confederation is not for the good of humanity. Any claim to the contrary is either mistaken or an outright lie. Capellan citizenship is about service to the Capellan people. Here's the thing, though: the Capellan people are defined by the Capellan state. Hence why it is able to confer citizenship and take citizenship away, according to its own arbitrary criteria.
The attempted ethical justification for the Capellan state, depsite the Korvin Doctrine's pretensions of universalism, is actually a rather tribal one. Talk about service to humanity is a smokescreen, I would argue. Citizenship is conferred by the Capellan state, based on one's service to the Capellan state. And I seem to recall a certain famous Liao once saying "I own the state."
To wit:
The Capellan Confederation is a petty despotism.
Or, if I were feeling charitable, I'd say that the point of the Capellan citizenship system is to inculcate the people of the Confederation with an intense patriotic attachment to that same Confederation; to promote the idea of Capellan citizens as a 'higher people'; to make it easier to dehumanise people of other states; and, above all, to create the state as the supreme value-centre for the Capellan people. The aim is to make the Capellan state the object of ultimate loyalty and fidelity for the people who happen to live in it.
But I don't feel particularly charitable to the Capellans today. :P
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The interesting thing is that they are not really any differant the the other four great houses. They all have their secret police, they all come down to how nice your ruling planetary noble is. The Confederation is just open about who and what they are. Their are no democratic states in BattleTech. Planets yes, but nations no.
And just as a side note, out of the five houses, who has been the most aggressive since the fall of the Star League (Davionistas I looking at you)? Who started the Fourth war and the War of 3039? And while old Maxie did try to put a double on the FedSuns throne (hmm, wonder what the universe would look like if he had succeeded? Sounds like a good AU), Hanse tried to do the same thing with Joshua Marik (I mean, why else would he put the op in place? "Thomas Marik" wouldn't have gone to war or cut off war material just because Joshua died from his illness.)
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Capellan citizenship, whatever else it's about, isn't about service to humanity. The Confederation is not for the good of humanity. Any claim to the contrary is either mistaken or an outright lie. Capellan citizenship is about service to the Capellan people.
The purpose of the State is to serve, protect and provide for its Citizens. A State which places a greater emphasis on the well-being of foreigners is a meddlesome, interventionist State at best, or a State masking its imperialist ideals at worst. If Crucians want to be free to live amongst their dirty rocks and smelly hovels spouting whatever they like, that is not a concern of or a problem for the Capellan State. The Capellan State doesn't make war with House Davion to insist on actually educating, feeding and medicating their subjects, and we expect our neighbors to respect our system similarly.
You, my friend, have provided no evidence of Capellan despotry. On the contrary, you have simply indicated that the Capellan Confederation does not share the Federated Suns arrogant belief that they know what's best for everyone and should force their ideals on them at gunpoint. Thank you! You are correct: The Capellan Confederation does NOT concern itself with the well being of foreigners, precisely because it isn't any of our business. The lives of foreigners are for their govenments to decide, not us.
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Does part of joining the Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes include a full frontal lobotomy? Because I like my lobes intact thanks.
What Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes? I'm not sure whether you're aiming to make an exaggerated comparison with no grounding, or if you're just trolling. Really, I'd love to know.
In communism the easiest way to live is to leech off of others. Leeching off of others in the Confederation gets you kicked into the Servitor caste. Kind of a nice, hard-line way of enforcing the goodness and community in man, I would say.
The Capellan Confederation is a petty despotism.
So is every other Successor State. Why is it still around (aside from the authors)? Because like in every other Successor State, the better Davions, Mariks, Kuritas, Steiners, and Liaos build up a cult of personality that the nation rides on through the ages. But the thing is, the people in the Confederation still come through in terms of getting their lives on track. Romano Liao wouldn't have been assassinated if not for the help of people who felt the Confederation had gone too far in being controlled by one woman. Whether or not you think a nation's rules are restrictive or backwards or not, people in the Confederation can tell the difference between what is evil and what is NECESSARY evil. They are not sheep.
Or, if I were feeling charitable, I'd say that the point of the Capellan citizenship system is to inculcate the people of the Confederation with an intense patriotic attachment to that same Confederation; to promote the idea of Capellan citizens as a 'higher people'; to make it easier to dehumanise people of other states; and, above all, to create the state as the supreme value-centre for the Capellan people. The aim is to make the Capellan state the object of ultimate loyalty and fidelity for the people who happen to live in it.
Irrelevant to the discussion of evil. I could point out (in PMs, since otherwise I'd be breaking Rule #4) two real-world examples of EXACTLY what you're talking about, one often cast in a positive light, and one DEFINITELY cast in a negative light.
People in a nation can be "deceived", as you would have it, by entertainment in culture, social programs, WHATEVER. The thing is, that's what makes them human. Those kinds of things are the kind of programming people receive to avoid becoming socially inept children locked in closets with piles of hay for toilets. If the human mind didn't categorize things into a "Taboo No-No" category, people wouldn't be able to filter (and subsequently not do) things they know would hurt themselves or others...as in, the tools people need in order to function as a community.
Capellan citizenship is a grand experiment in combining the structure and rationality of platonic community with the prestige and pride of powerful Asian empires. You'll never figure Capellans out unless you go beyond the fact that BattleTech just happened to be created in a year with the same title as 1984.
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The interesting thing is that they are not really any differant the the other four great houses. They all have their secret police, they all come down to how nice your ruling planetary noble is. The Confederation is just open about who and what they are. Their are no democratic states in BattleTech. Planets yes, but nations no.
And just as a side note, out of the five houses, who has been the most aggressive since the fall of the Star League (Davionistas I looking at you)? Who started the Fourth war and the War of 3039? And while old Maxie did try to put a double on the FedSuns throne (hmm, wonder what the universe would look like if he had succeeded? Sounds like a good AU), Hanse tried to do the same thing with Joshua Marik (I mean, why else would he put the op in place? "Thomas Marik" wouldn't have gone to war or cut off war material just because Joshua died from his illness.)
Ah, the Combine started the First and Third. The Second Succession kind of just began when raids began to get heavier thanks in part to ROM's Operation Divine Intervention. In fact, Comstar probably has the blame for starting the Second Succession War due to getting an aging and mentally incapacitated Jinjro Kurita angry and getting the FWL into the war.
State Police? MIIO isn't state police who take enemies of the states and shoots them to create fear of the state in its citizens. If they did that, Gogh Bukowski University on New Avalon would have been a bloody hole of dead hippies years ago considering it's openly Anti-Davion, Anti-Principality, Anti-Establishment, and Pro-Anything Art related. Plus, they like to go demonstrate just for fun. Honestly, I really can't recall a Capellan equivalent to Gogh-Bukowski University on Sian. There is no Konradd College either which is a shame: there needs to be more subtle references to A Canticle for Leibowitz in science fiction in general.
In the Capellan Confederation or Draconis Combine, there are no real avenues to arguing with the state. As MadCap has said of the Capellan Confederation, your arguments against the state are only heard if the State finds merit in them to improve the state. In the FWL, LC, and FS, there are avenues for meeting, demonstrations, and even colleges where the whole point is basically sticking it to the man. Mind you, I doubt that House Davion is funding Gogh-Bukowski, and I know for sure that Konradd College is privately funded by the Church. And the only reason that I mention it is that Konradd is that I want more references to A Canticle for Leibowitz, and I want to stress that point. However MIIO only really cares to do any work against rival political movements in the Suns when it goes and starts killing others which in the Suns is quite easy since the weapon laws are quite liberal, plotting open rebellion, or committing criminal crimes. DMI 6 is used as a weapon of war against foreign entities.
Then again where are the different political parties in the Capellan Confederation? Organizations like the National Liberal Party, Abacus Party, Grand Union Party, Sword & Shield Party, Fox Party, Kestune Party, Sarna Party (Sarna People's Front), and of course the every detestable Citizens for Davion Purity(Secretly a Front for Warrior Cabals). Sure, the parties are mostly confined to the Suns' nearly irrelevant High Council and planetary governments, but they still exist.
So where can a servitor go to discuss his complaints with Sun-Tzu without getting a boot to the head?
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So where can a servitor go to discuss his complaints with Sun-Tzu without getting a boot to the head?
Why should a servitor get that right? He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet. Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human. And DOING SOMETHING is what keeps one from loafing on a couch asking why everything isn't about him. That isn't living. Living is not breathing. It is doing.
I highly regard your presentation of evidence in your arguments, Lord Harlock, but they all seem to be based in the belief that anything that isn't borne out of the possibilities of Locke-inspired Western Democracy is backwards and unnecessary. It's not like people can't come up with better ideas without it. In fact, I kind of find arguments taken from that perspective somewhat insulting (not your fault).
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And just as a side note, out of the five houses, who has been the most aggressive since the fall of the Star League (Davionistas I looking at you)?
Kurita.
Really, is there even the slightest question here?
Who started the Fourth war and the War of 3039?
No comment on the latter, but it seems to me that trying to assassinate the leader of a foreign nation and replace him with a puppet body double constitutes an act of war.
The purpose of the State is to serve, protect and provide for its Citizens.
I do not recall talking about the purpose of the state. I was talking about the idea of service to humanity.
I would say that you are actually right, to an extent. A state is supposed to serve its citizens. That's why we have them, and why states aren't ultimate causes.
The issue with the Capellan state here is that it's redefined 'citizen' into a state-granted privilege. That is: the purpose of the Capellan state is to serve the people that the Capellan state has arbitrarily selected as worthy of serving the Capellan state.
You, my friend, have provided no evidence of Capellan despotry. On the contrary, you have simply indicated that the Capellan Confederation does not share the Federated Suns arrogant belief that they know what's best for everyone and should force their ideals on them at gunpoint
Wait, who brought the Federated Suns into this?
At any rate. I am comfortable referring to the Confederation as despotic because the purpose of the Confederation, it seems to me, is to serve the ambition of the Liao family. (I am specifically not talking about any other successor state here. Tu quoque arguments will be dismissed.)
So is every other Successor State.
We are not talking about the other successor states. We are talking about the Capellan Confederation.
Irrelevant to the discussion of evil. I could point out (in PMs, since otherwise I'd be breaking Rule #4) two real-world examples of EXACTLY what you're talking about, one often cast in a positive light, and one DEFINITELY cast in a negative light.
The point is that the apparatus of the Capellan state, I would argue, is designed to encourage the individuals within that state to make the state itself - i.e. the tools of government, and ultimately the Liao family - the ultimate object of devotion.
Capellan citizenship is a grand experiment in combining the structure and rationality of platonic community with the prestige and pride of powerful Asian empires. You'll never figure Capellans out unless you go beyond the fact that BattleTech just happened to be created in a year with the same title as 1984.
Oh, the Capellan state ideology is very interesting. I don't deny that.
I think it is also extraordinarily ethically questionable, and, to be frank, morally repugnant, but to my mind that's good in a fictional setting. That is what makes the Capellans much better villains than the Kuritas. They're both evil, but the Capellans are evil with an ideology.
Why should a servitor get that right? He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet.
This, I should point out, is the overall problem.
You suggest that the state exists in order to serve its citizens; yet at the same time you allow the state to set arbitrary criteria that a person must meet before he or she is a citizen.
(Apologies for the short remarks. I may go a bit more in-depth tomorrow.)
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We are not talking about the other successor states. We are talking about the Capellan Confederation.
I apologize, it's just that when I hear other people say that line, they're denouncing the Confederation as the ONLY nation that is such, and doesn't deserve to exist. Knee-jerk reaction.
The point is that the apparatus of the Capellan state, I would argue, is designed to encourage the individuals within that state to make the state itself - i.e. the tools of government, and ultimately the Liao family - the ultimate object of devotion.
Okay, but how do you find that ethically and morally undesirable?
This, I should point out, is the overall problem.
You suggest that the state exists in order to serve its citizens; yet at the same time you allow the state to set arbitrary criteria that a person must meet before he or she is a citizen.
The criteria are set because the Confederation does not have NEARLY enough resources to give the benefits it does to every human in the Inner Sphere. And the rules aren't as arbitrary as you might think, since there have to have been people in the Confederation who have calculated allocations and tried many distribution plans over the centuries. And it's not like the conditions for becoming a Citizen haven't changed for the better, either. Reform happens in any government, no matter how oppressive or whatever. There's no point in comparing social advancements between governments necessitated out of completely different cultures.
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Why should a servitor get that right? He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet. Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human. And DOING SOMETHING is what keeps one from loafing on a couch asking why everything isn't about him. That isn't living. Living is not breathing. It is doing.
I highly regard your presentation of evidence in your arguments, Lord Harlock, but they all seem to be based in the belief that anything that isn't borne out of the possibilities of Locke-inspired Western Democracy is backwards and unnecessary. It's not like people can't come up with better ideas without it. In fact, I kind of find arguments taken from that perspective somewhat insulting (not your fault).
And just remember from my point of view, it is evil to deprive a loser and a loaf his due as a human. ;) Do I believe in Locke's Theories of Natural Rights? Yeah, I also take it a little to close to heart. So naturally, I'm more inclined to be a Suns lover. Now does that make it a Western Democracy argument? Not really. Now so far in history, natural rights have existed as really apart of the American Republic Experiment. However, natural rights are just a belief that these rights go beyond any law making bodies ability to regulate or contain. It really doesn't need a democratically elected legislature to guarantee it since they are beyond such notions and exist usually thanks to divine will or because of nature. All it needs is a government to say that it is beyond its scope be it monarch or timocratically created body of wrestlers who decide things in the wrestling ring.
Honestly if I want democratic rights, I'd be a Free Worlds League kind of fan. I've always been more for the natural rights espoused in the Six Liberties rather than wee I get a vote. Which isn't even true in the Free Worlds League. It's not necessary true that the Member of Parliament is democratically elected to begin with. Just isn't it true that there isn't a servitor on Old Kentucky complaining that Sun-Tzu is an idiot. It's all depends on in the FWL on planetary rules on appointing that member, and in the Capellan Confederation if there is enough people in the Cultural Ministry to hear about the complaint and go take care of the Old Jeb for his lack of believe in the Celestial Wisdom either by reeducation or a boot to the head.
However, I prefer my Lockian Principality with its flaws of lack of education money for the Outback (They will pull themselves up by their bootstraps one of these days under one of those Duke Marsins), lack of social programs (Does any other power have a company like Crimson Suns Permanent Assurance Inc.? No, they don't so nah-nah!), or militarism (This is Battletech, right?). Do I consider the Capellans evil? Yeah, but the Capellans consider the Suns evil for being what it is just as the Combine does as well. The Lyrans don't care as long as they get their check in the mail. And the FWL will debate the issue until it becomes in their best interest to side with someone. Do the Capellans have a right to invade the Suns? Sure just as the Suns has the right to liberate the Servitors and then send colonists to educate (really it's a plan of eventually out-breading or converting the locals until the world never wants to go back to the old regimé in both cases).
Honestly, the only power that I really actually despise is the Republic of the Sphere, and that steams from the fact that the government from Ghost Wars on in good old Orwellian fashion tried to used propaganda. It told its people that everything was fine and not to mind the people moved onto the planet since it will make things all better. And yeah with diversity because the people on Mallory's World are doing better at integrating than your world, and that disappoints us all especially Devlin Stone. Stone is watching. The Republic just gives me a bad taste in my mouth. Is it any wonder that once the HPG grid was gone that the Republic basically collapsed into an infinite way civil war?
So at the least, the Capellans are better than the Republic of the Sphere. They are open about their flaws which garners a bit of my respect. The Republic of the Sphere always plays the victim, and they will eventually sadly survive. Boo. But I do consider the Republic, Capellans, Combine evil, but it's from my point of view. And as I believe, I have the right to believe that.
However, the Suns is also not responsible for the first three Succession Wars unless you believe that by not stopping the Combine or Comstar that they in fact evil by allowing such things. And then the guy who believes preemptive strikes are evil would argue that any such action would make the Suns evil. So unless, we all agree to a certain moral code which isn't going to happen. None of the powers of Battletech even the Republic are not evil from their own point of view.
However again, the Capellans are evil. And even though I can see their desire for order and survial of humanity as the spoken primary goal, I really can't see it as justification to hit Old Jeb of Old Kentucky in the head with a boot because he made fun of Sun-Tzu. That is evil to me.
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Mr. M. Anchovey, I reiterate, "The State is its Citizens..." The Citizens should NOT be forced by their government to provide for the well-being of all the galaxies slothful, selfish, violent, ignorant masses, many of which who would do them harm. The Capellan Confederation, in distinguishing those individuals from societies productive members, relieves that society of the burden of providing for layabouts, criminals, and anarchists. You may say that the Confederation is a system which is designed to aggradize the Liao family, but I'd argue that the Confederation is the only Great House that preserves the rights of the Citizen without burdening them with providing for all the galaxies misanthropes.
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Mr. M. Anchovey, I reiterate, "The State is its Citizens..." The Citizens should NOT be forced by their government to provide for the well-being of all the galaxies slothful, selfish, violent, ignorant masses, many of which who would do them harm. The Capellan Confederation, in distinguishing those individuals from societies productive members, relieves that society of the burden of providing for layabouts, criminals, and anarchists. You may say that the Confederation is a system which is designed to aggradize the Liao family, but I'd argue that the Confederation is the only Great House that preserves the rights of the Citizen without burdening them with providing for all the galaxies misanthropes.
If I designated the people who didn't buy in to my fascist ideal of a person's worth being equal to that of their contribution to the State, I could totally preserve all the rights of my people, all the time, and make things awesome for them. Once you designate that some of your people aren't ACTUALLY counted as "your people" then you're just blowing smoke.
When you go around saying things like this, it goes off the deep end:
Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human.
If this is just in-character banter that's one thing, but if people actually believe this, and that this is a system that deserves support? I am legitimately freaked out by some of the posters in this thread.
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*snip*
Well, I'd say that makes sense looking at it from the outside. You get quiet, begrudging applause from me. :)
If this is just in-character banter that's one thing, but if people actually believe this, and that this is a system that deserves support? I am legitimately freaked out by some of the posters in this thread.
Uhhhhh. Well...I wouldn't say I'm totally serious, but I do believe that everyone constantly (but often unconsciously) strives to define themselves as one person or another, all their lives. It's in human nature to be always "on the way". And I see a lot of that nature in the social ladder (mobility on that ladder, even) in the Confederation.
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People try and define themselves as a type of person; they should not have to try and define themselves as "a person."
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People try and define themselves as a type of person; they should not have to try and define themselves as "a person."
They don't have to try. They only need to try if they want what the Confederation can give while in their borders. Some people are okay with living as Servitors. I actually know one person in real life who fits that description exactly.
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I think it's also important to bear in mind that the CapCon is the one state which has struggled with survival from the very beginning. That struggle permeates every aspect of their philosophy, from the Korvin Doctrine to the pan-Confederation emphasis of Han culture, despite the fact that the Confederation started as a collection of very different cultures. States operating in a siege mentality can do away with the niceties of civil rights if they feel it strengthens the state. The Confederation was formed to keep foreign invaders out. Whatever crimes committed by the Capellan state have happened, at least in personal opinion has been more for securing the survival of state and the protection of it's people. The Liao family has lathed onto this power structure, absolutely. But i think even from Franco Liao on the Chancellorship has never hidden it's contempt for the idea of answering to anyone.
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Except to protect their boarders, they are willing to kill their own people to do so such as the Orbital Bombardment of Capella to destroy the Federated Suns Peacekeepers. It might be about survival, but at the same time, there are some things you shouldn't do just to survive.
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Except to protect their boarders, they are willing to kill their own people to do so such as the Orbital Bombardment of Capella to destroy the Federated Suns Peacekeepers. It might be about survival, but at the same time, there are some things you shouldn't do just to survive.
10,000 volunteers vs subjecation of your entire nation. Capellans paid that price willingly.
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The purpose of the State is to serve, protect and provide for its Citizens. A State which places a greater emphasis on the well-being of foreigners is a meddlesome, interventionist State at best, or a State masking its imperialist ideals at worst. If Crucians want to be free to live amongst their dirty rocks and smelly hovels spouting whatever they like, that is not a concern of or a problem for the Capellan State. The Capellan State doesn't make war with House Davion to insist on actually educating, feeding and medicating their subjects, and we expect our neighbors to respect our system similarly.
You, my friend, have provided no evidence of Capellan despotry. On the contrary, you have simply indicated that the Capellan Confederation does not share the Federated Suns arrogant belief that they know what's best for everyone and should force their ideals on them at gunpoint. Thank you! You are correct: The Capellan Confederation does NOT concern itself with the well being of foreigners, precisely because it isn't any of our business. The lives of foreigners are for their govenments to decide, not us.
But the definition of Capellan citizenry is so fluid that it can be used to justify any action of a state. Invading a planet? Those are citizens that need liberation, even if none are or were citizens. Suppressing dissent? They lost their citizenship when they disagreed with the state.
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Why should a servitor get that right? He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet. Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human. And DOING SOMETHING is what keeps one from loafing on a couch asking why everything isn't about him. That isn't living. Living is not breathing. It is doing.
I highly regard your presentation of evidence in your arguments, Lord Harlock, but they all seem to be based in the belief that anything that isn't borne out of the possibilities of Locke-inspired Western Democracy is backwards and unnecessary. It's not like people can't come up with better ideas without it. In fact, I kind of find arguments taken from that perspective somewhat insulting (not your fault).
"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people." -Doctrine of Fascism, 1935
Mussolini, Benito. 1935. Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions. Rome: Ardita Publishers. p 14
Admittingly I did a lazy wikipedia cut and paste
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But the definition of Capellan citizenry is so fluid that it can be used to justify any action of a state. Invading a planet? Those are citizens that need liberation, even if none are or were citizens.
Not quite. More point in fact the world requires liberation because it is the joint property of the entirety of the Capellan Confederation misappropriated by our vile neighbors by force of arms. The inhabitants of those worlds may be potential citizens seeking liberation or worthless foreign layabouts, but the people themselves are only part of the justification for the fight to liberate a world.
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What about Chersterton? It was already in Federated Sun hands even before the CapCon was created, wasn't it?
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Not quite. More point in fact the world requires liberation because it is the joint property of the entirety of the Capellan Confederation misappropriated by our vile neighbors by force of arms. The inhabitants of those worlds may be potential citizens seeking liberation or worthless foreign layabouts, but the people themselves are only part of the justification for the fight to liberate a world.
Weird. They called it the Clan Invasion when we did it... ::)
All those worlds we took were just "in the way" on our way to Terra and the Hegemony. Just like the Servitor in your earlier example.
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What about Chersterton? It was already in Federated Sun hands even before the CapCon was created, wasn't it?
The Chesterton Trade League formed in 2193. The Capellan Commonality came together in 2310. The FedSuns occupied Chesterton in 2357. The Capellan Confederation was realised in 2367.
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Weird. They called it the Clan Invasion when we did it... ::)
All those worlds we took were just "in the way" on our way to Terra and the Hegemony. Just like the Servitor in your earlier example.
As they say, it is like poop. Yours do not stink and everyone elses' does.
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Okay, but how do you find that ethically and morally undesirable?
Because the state is not the ultimate source of value. A state - in fact, a nation - is simply an agreed upon convention, for the sake of some common good. A nation only exists because there is a consensus to pretend that there is such a thing as a nation; and this consensus is justified by the many practical benefits in having nations, governmental structures, and so on.
To put it rather glibly: nations only exist because large groups of people choose for them to exist, and this choice is made in the context of some other value-structure. For most people, the choice to recognise the existence of nations is made for the simple, practical reason that nations are very useful to have to ensure the welfare of people. The central value is human welfare.
Exactly what one's ultimate object of devotion is obviously varies greatly between people. It can be the state, one's own material welfare, a religious ideal, a secular ideal (like distributive equality, scientific advance, environmental balance, etc.), or anything else. Not all objects are equal in this sense, of course; rather than debate them, I'll just state that there are many. I don't think it is appropriate to try to indoctrinate individuals such that a state - that is, one specific state, a commonly agreed upon fictional entity that derives its value from some external value-structure - becomes the ultimate object of devotion.
And then bearing in mind that convincing people to relate to the state in that way is pragmatically convenient for power-hungry rulers... well, one has to be cynical, doesn't one?
The criteria are set because the Confederation does not have NEARLY enough resources to give the benefits it does to every human in the Inner Sphere.
A cynic might point out that the average citizen of, say, the Lyran Commonwealth, enjoys greater civil liberties and greater material welfare than the average citizen of the Confederation.
And the rules aren't as arbitrary as you might think, since there have to have been people in the Confederation who have calculated allocations and tried many distribution plans over the centuries.
Regardless, it remains true that the Confederation government can alter the criteria at whim.
As I understand it, the Confederation has actually done so, in the past, with conquered territories, in order to politically marginalise undesirables.
Mr. M. Anchovey, I reiterate, "The State is its Citizens..." The Citizens should NOT be forced by their government to provide for the well-being of all the galaxies slothful, selfish, violent, ignorant masses, many of which who would do them harm.
I don't believe I said anything about what governments should force people to do. I was criticising the Confederation, not expounding on some ideal political system of my own.
If I designated the people who didn't buy in to my fascist ideal of a person's worth being equal to that of their contribution to the State, I could totally preserve all the rights of my people, all the time, and make things awesome for them. Once you designate that some of your people aren't ACTUALLY counted as "your people" then you're just blowing smoke.
Well said.
Uhhhhh. Well...I wouldn't say I'm totally serious, but I do believe that everyone constantly (but often unconsciously) strives to define themselves as one person or another, all their lives. It's in human nature to be always "on the way". And I see a lot of that nature in the social ladder (mobility on that ladder, even) in the Confederation.
Certainly people struggle to define themselves; and they define themselves, I would say, in relation to chosen value-centres. The issue I have with the Confederation is that to become a citizen you have to, effectively, choose the Confederation itself as your value-centre; and Capellan education is aimed at making people do this.
I think that taking any state as a value-centre is, in short, completely backwards.
I think it's also important to bear in mind that the CapCon is the one state which has struggled with survival from the very beginning.
An obvious solution would seem to present itself, then. Just let the Confederation die. ;)
"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people." -Doctrine of Fascism, 1935
Precisely right. That's the sort of thing I have in mind when I talk about the Confederation trying to present its own state as value-centre.
What about Chersterton? It was already in Federated Sun hands even before the CapCon was created, wasn't it?
It is worth bearing in mind that by this point, the successor states fight each other not because any side really cares about being in the right any more, but because fighting each other is what they do. After centuries, it becomes second nature.
Though I admit that I have marginally more respect for the Lyrans, Suns, and League. The Lyrans in particular give the impression of a state that, if it were possible, would honestly quite like to just stop fighting forever. The League is too multivocal to really talk about well, and as for the Suns, well, looking over the history it does seem that they usually don't strike first, and their major crime, I suppose, is that they have a tendency to win. I don't feel that winning, as a brute fact, is really something a state should have to justify.
(Yes, yes, I know Cavalier has made that argument that historically the Lyrans are the aggressor on the League border. I said it was an impression; it's not an argument.)
Regardless, it bears remembering that none of the states are without blood on their hands, and in any specific situation it depends on the individuals and the actual state of affairs. That said, one can legitimately criticise or defend the institutional structures of each successor state, and the sorts of behaviour they encourage. That is the ground on which I would criticise the Confederation, and on which I am relatively sympathetic to the Commonwealth, Suns, and League.
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Though I admit that I have marginally more respect for the Lyrans, Suns, and League. The Lyrans in particular give the impression of a state that, if it were possible, would honestly quite like to just stop fighting forever. The League is too multivocal to really talk about well, and as for the Suns, well, looking over the history it does seem that they usually don't strike first, and their major crime, I suppose, is that they have a tendency to win. I don't feel that winning, as a brute fact, is really something a state should have to justify.
(Yes, yes, I know Cavalier has made that argument that historically the Lyrans are the aggressor on the League border. I said it was an impression; it's not an argument.)
When all sources state they started every single war up until the Second Succession War, and that was because the Captain-General in office had been tricked by Toyama into thinking there was a massive Lyran invasion fleet next door and if he didn't attack first he would lose I would say Cavalier's argument is firm. If you were the Captain-General at that time and understood that history when getting reading your intelligence, what would you do?
Philippa was the one who was the first to have the courage to take it back to them, and look the League is back to size after the Third. The Fourth was started by Houses Davion and Steiner, with the League obligated by treaty to attack kicking and screaming. Guerrero was a retaliatory strike for Victor trying to put a plant in the League executive office to make the League his satelite state (Think perspective of the time, not metaknowledge).
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It's like Starship Troopers, with an extra helping of WTF! :D
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Philippa was the one who was the first to have the courage to take it back to them, and look the League is back to size after the Third. The Fourth was started by Houses Davion and Steiner, with the League obligated by treaty to attack kicking and screaming. Guerrero was a retaliatory strike for Victor trying to put a plant in the League executive office to make the League his satelite state (Think perspective of the time, not metaknowledge).
I'm not getting into a 'my house is better than your house' argument, though it does seem to me that Liao started the Fourth.
Or put it this way:
If you think that Operation Guerrero is morally justified because of the false Joshua, then you must also think the Fourth Succession War was morally justified. Doppelganger was actually more extreme than the false Joshua, since it was part of a plot to take over the other nation, not simply prolong a bargain. If Guerrero is okay; the Fourth War is okay.
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If you think that Operation Guerrero is morally justified because of the false Joshua, then you must also think the Fourth Succession War was morally justified. Doppelganger was actually more extreme than the false Joshua, since it was part of a plot to take over the other nation, not simply prolong a bargain. If Guerrero is okay; the Fourth War is okay.
Guererro was about Joshua for the Mariks. For us, it was about getting our planets back. Doppelganger? Guess what: it was about getting our planets back. Offensive against the Suns during the 1st Succession War? Getting planets back. Attack on the Republic of the Sphere? Get planets back. You'd think people'd discover the pattern, but obviously, some people have a hard time understanding that some people won't ever forgive you for violating their sovereignity. STAY OFF OUR LAWN!
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Weird. They called it the Clan Invasion when we did it... ::)
Last I checked, none of you guys are Camerons. You're just a bunch of looneys who followed the dismissed CO of the SLDF off into the interstellar wilderness because he'd rather cry about the fall of the Star League than do something about it.
I don't believe I said anything about what governments should force people to do. I was criticising the Confederation, not expounding on some ideal political system of my own.
You cannot prevent people from providing for the well-being of destructive or selfish individuals without making a distinction as to whom those people are. The Confederation does so for the betterment of its people. You're attempting to make a neat dodge, but the reality of the matter is that unless you are willing to make an assessment as to who is and who isn't contributing, you cannot prevent those who do contribute from providing for those who don't. The Confederation protects the interests of its citizens by refusing to waste their efforts on people who wouldn't do the same for them. A Capellan Citizen sees a fellow Citizen as a brother or sister, because simply knowing they are a Citizen one knows that they are a person willing to give of themselves for the community. I fail to see anything immoral about intelligent people self-selecting a community for the betterment of its membership, in which all members are proven to be willing to help one another.
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Guererro was about Joshua for the Mariks. For us, it was about getting our planets back. Doppelganger? Guess what: it was about getting our planets back. Offensive against the Suns during the 1st Succession War? Getting planets back. Attack on the Republic of the Sphere? Get planets back. You'd think people'd discover the pattern, but obviously, some people have a hard time understanding that some people won't ever forgive you for violating their sovereignity. STAY OFF OUR LAWN!
Ah, yes, and then we're back to six hundred year old grudges, which somehow still have binding force regardless of the intentions or desires of the populations of those worlds.
You're attempting to make a neat dodge, but the reality of the matter is that unless you are willing to make an assessment as to who is and who isn't contributing, you cannot prevent those who do contribute from providing for those who don't.
Of course.
We can't make assessments of that sort; so the state should provide for everyone. It should provide for those who contribute little just as much as it does for those who contribute much. You may think that is unjust; but it seems to me to be preferable to the alternative.
I fail to see anything immoral about intelligent people self-selecting a community for the betterment of its membership, in which all members are proven to be willing to help one another.
The community isn't self-selecting. You've got the agency wrong. The agent is the Capellan state.
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Regardless, it remains true that the Confederation government can alter the criteria at whim.
I'm curious as to why you've only singled out the Capellan government in this supposed statement.?
By virtue of the fact that all governments are largely criteria-makers, that the Capellan government can alter criteria on a whim isn't that wholly different from the other major political decision-making bodies ruling the Successor States.
Certainly, Katherine's whimsical rule of the Lyran Alliance proved that to be the case.
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They don't have to try. They only need to try if they want what the Confederation can give while in their borders. Some people are okay with living as Servitors. I actually know one person in real life who fits that description exactly.
In your own words, "you have to do something to prove you'r a person." who is honestly okay with not having basic human rights?
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I'm curious as to why you've only singled out the Capellan government in this supposed statement.?
Er, because this topic is about the Confederation?
The Confederation government can alter the citizenship criteria at any time. In fact, the criteria are set up to reward devotion to the state as an abstract ideal.
In theory the other states could alter the citizenship criteria, or the rights they guarantee to defend. Obviously it is in theory possible for the First Prince and the High Council to revoke the Six Liberties, for instance, or decide that they only apply to a restricted segment of the population. The Lyrans and the League are a bit better: I don't think the Archon or Captain-General have the power to alter the Articles of Acceptance or the Document of Incorporation, and they get a little extra credit because the Estates General and Parliament are reasonably representative and are capable of arguing with the ruling house. Nonetheless, even in those states it is true that the Estates General or Parliament could revise their definitions of citizenship or alter the systems of rights that they defend.
Considering that, yes, it is probably a good idea to be cynical when it comes to the governments of those states. One should not trust the government of any successor state.
So why do I advantage those three over the Confederation? Two points.
Firstly, their current criterion for citizenship is reasonably universal and non-arbitrary. You're born in the realm, you grow to be of age, you get it. That means that their system includes everyone, supporters of the state as well as dissenters and troublemakers. So there's a possibility there.
Secondly, their system is not set up in such a way as to attempt to indoctrinate all citizens of the realm in the state ideology and inculcate in them a fanatic loyalty to the state. That said: certainly those states have ideologies, and they are taught. Kids growing up in the FedSuns are going to be taught what the Six Liberties are, why they're awesome, and why this makes the Suns better than the autocracies to either side. But there's a rather important distinction, and that is that in the Suns, as well as in the Commonwealth and the League, basic civil liberties are not contingent on one's ability to demonstrate adherence to the said ideology.
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It seems like, if you really want to boil it down, the Capellans just don't buy into the idea of egalitarianism.
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Last I checked, none of you guys are Camerons. You're just a bunch of looneys who followed the dismissed CO of the SLDF off into the interstellar wilderness because he'd rather cry about the fall of the Star League than do something about it.
The verdict is still out on that one...coughJenniferWinsoncough...
Much of your argument can be used to justify any act of aggression, just as readily as you are using it to justify the defense and liberation of Capellan territory. Just sayin'. ;)
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The Confederation government can alter the citizenship criteria at any time. In fact, the criteria are set up to reward devotion to the state as an abstract ideal.
Or, they can be reworked to ensure the betterment of ALL the Capellan people -- even the disenfranchised among the Servitor caste.
As I noted earlier in this discussion, from pg. 63 -- Handbook: House Liao:-
Xin Sheng touched every caste of the Confederation, even (or perhaps especially) the massive numbers of servitors. Though Sun-Tzu had abolished the servitors’ near-slavery and enforced a wage for them, Xin Sheng formalized and expanded on those reforms. The rising power of the servitor caste over Capellan society by 3067 was built on the broader rights granted them in 3060. In fact, many sociologists have begun to theorize about the end of the servitor caste’s existence in the next several generations as they more or less breed themselves into the ranks of the Commonality.
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Last I checked, none of you guys are Camerons. You're just a bunch of looneys who followed the dismissed CO of the SLDF off into the interstellar wilderness because he'd rather cry about the fall of the Star League than do something about it.
Which is still a far more solid claim than the Capellan 'Every world in the Inner Sphere is an ancestral Capellan claim, as only the Capellans are the rightful leaders of humanity'...
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Which is still a far more solid claim than the Capellan 'Every world in the Inner Sphere is an ancestral Capellan claim, as only the Capellans are the rightful leaders of humanity'...
Was this trolling or did it have an actual point besides trying to irritate people in a rather good discussion? Just asking.
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Er, because this topic is about the Confederation?
The Confederation government can alter the citizenship criteria at any time. In fact, the criteria are set up to reward devotion to the state as an abstract ideal.
In theory the other states could alter the citizenship criteria, or the rights they guarantee to defend. Obviously it is in theory possible for the First Prince and the High Council to revoke the Six Liberties, for instance, or decide that they only apply to a restricted segment of the population. The Lyrans and the League are a bit better: I don't think the Archon or Captain-General have the power to alter the Articles of Acceptance or the Document of Incorporation, and they get a little extra credit because the Estates General and Parliament are reasonably representative and are capable of arguing with the ruling house. Nonetheless, even in those states it is true that the Estates General or Parliament could revise their definitions of citizenship or alter the systems of rights that they defend.
Considering that, yes, it is probably a good idea to be cynical when it comes to the governments of those states. One should not trust the government of any successor state.
So why do I advantage those three over the Confederation? Two points.
Firstly, their current criterion for citizenship is reasonably universal and non-arbitrary. You're born in the realm, you grow to be of age, you get it. That means that their system includes everyone, supporters of the state as well as dissenters and troublemakers. So there's a possibility there.
Secondly, their system is not set up in such a way as to attempt to indoctrinate all citizens of the realm in the state ideology and inculcate in them a fanatic loyalty to the state. That said: certainly those states have ideologies, and they are taught. Kids growing up in the FedSuns are going to be taught what the Six Liberties are, why they're awesome, and why this makes the Suns better than the autocracies to either side. But there's a rather important distinction, and that is that in the Suns, as well as in the Commonwealth and the League, basic civil liberties are not contingent on one's ability to demonstrate adherence to the said ideology.
Not only would I second this, but I would point out that by only discussing the CapCon, he is nullifying any irrelevant arguments that depend upon moral relativity with the other Successor States. We can accept that these polities are comprised of deeply flawed systems without using those flaws to excuse or ignore those found in the CapCon.
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Ah, yes, and then we're back to six hundred year old grudges, which somehow still have binding force regardless of the intentions or desires of the populations of those worlds.
I'd want my property back if it was stolen, regardless of how long it took.
We can't make assessments of that sort; so the state should provide for everyone. It should provide for those who contribute little just as much as it does for those who contribute much. You may think that is unjust; but it seems to me to be preferable to the alternative.
I thoroughly disagree. I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks. It encourages vice and sloth and burdens societies best and brightest with the task of perpetually babysitting an ever-growing population of self-absorbed, arrogant, uncaring human animals with a grand sense of entitlement. At this point, however, we are really just discussing personal preferense, so there's little more to discuss.
The community isn't self-selecting. You've got the agency wrong. The agent is the Capellan state.
The community is very much self-selecting. You choose whether or not to apply for Citizenship. Those who become Citizens then become part of the body that sets the criteria.
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It seems like, if you really want to boil it down, the Capellans just don't buy into the idea of egalitarianism.
The Capellan understanding of egalitarianism is that every person born in the Confederation gets the same education and the same chance to become a Citizen. That does not mean that all people live equal lives any more than it means that every bumb in the Davion outback deserves to be as wealthy as the First Prince. Whether you choose to earn your Citizenship or not is on you, but it was not your birth that held you back.
Which is still a far more solid claim than the Capellan 'Every world in the Inner Sphere is an ancestral Capellan claim, as only the Capellans are the rightful leaders of humanity'...
No Capellan has ever made that claim, only individuals ignorant of the Confederation and its actual motivations.
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The Capellans, I feel, are the perfect faction for you if you're the sort of person who likes to play the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K. "FOR THE CHANCELLOR!" *KABLOOIE*
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The Capellans, I feel, are the perfect faction for you if you're the sort of person who likes to play the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K. "FOR THE CHANCELLOR!" *KABLOOIE*
I like to play the Guard because of huge numbers of overweight tanks. So I'll stick with the Lyrans :D
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I thoroughly disagree. I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks.
If servitors were truly as you describe, then it seems allowing them to exist at all has this very result. Servitor status prevents an individual from holding much value or prestige in society, but it doesn't prevent them from taking up resources from the 'productives'. As well, we could argue that the lowliest employee at the dirtiest fast food restaurant is supporting the Capellan state in some fashion. The state just has the power to decide whether that's enough. Given that the Capellan citizens have no real say in the matter, to say nothing of the servitors, we come back to the major disconnect in your argument. Service is to the State, and the State defines what service is, but the people who supposedly comprise the state have no say in making that determination. The citizen is not the State. The citizen is a servitor with better benefits, a tribal (good description here) allegiance to this concept of State, and a xenophobic relationship with everyone who is not. It's class warfare.
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I thought that the entire neo-samurai thing was freely professed to be an engineered cultural phenomenon, much like all of the neo-Chinese, neo-German stuff going on in the other empires.
Hell, even under Takashi, a particularly intolerant SOB, you still had a non-Japanese like Vasiliy Cherenkoff in charge of the entire Dieron district.
Grieg Samsonov (not Japanese, to my knowledge) was the Warlord of Galedon District.
Yeah, Daniel Sorenson or the guy in the Kurita fiction from TW are other examples of non-Japanese bushi. I've always played the Danish samurai mechwarrior myself. Being samurai is about being constantly trained and prepared for war with bonsai and origami on the side to help him/her appreciate peace, a real bushi probably wouldn't be too concerned about racial politics in the Combine (try telling that to the ISF though...). That's how I played my Mechwarrior character at least; he spends all his downtime on the training grounds and his orchards (developing new strains of fruit trees for the Dragon), very non-political.
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I like to play the Guard because of huge numbers of overweight tanks. So I'll stick with the Lyrans :D
In the little bit that I dabbled in 40K, my friends who played Guard tended to focus more on the blatant disposable nature of the foot soldiers, so I tend to forget about the tanks.
Of course, I was the token Greenie Fanatic, so what's that really say about me, eh? WAAAAAAAGH!
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I'm not getting into a 'my house is better than your house' argument
I promise you that was not the argument type. It is an argument that strictly is out to break the myth the Lyrans spread that they are a bunch of people who think the universe is made only of love and peace and only fight for self defense. The reason they attack the League is because it has what they want, heavy industry, the Combine is nothing in comparison in that regard.
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If servitors were truly as you describe, then it seems allowing them to exist at all has this very result.
Not really. They're left to fend for themselves until they decide to contribute. A pretty reasonable course of action, I'd say.
Servitor status prevents an individual from holding much value or prestige in society, but it doesn't prevent them from taking up resources from the 'productives'.
Sure it does. Servitors cannot own property and effectively have no rights. Anything a Servitor has in his or her possession may be appropriated by a Citizen at any time just like something found lying on the sidewalk.
Given that the Capellan citizens have no real say in the matter, to say nothing of the servitors, we come back to the major disconnect in your argument. Service is to the State, and the State defines what service is, but the people who supposedly comprise the state have no say in making that determination.
The people are the State. Who are the millions of civil servants and bureaucrats of the Confederation, the ones who make the determination as to who becomes a Citizen, if not Citizens themselves? They all had to go through the same process and experience the same things. It's not as if His Celestial Wisdom has the time to make a personal assessment on the part of each and every individual as to whether or not they get Citizenship. That is performed by the regional heads of the local castes.
The citizen is not the State. The citizen is a servitor with better benefits, a tribal (good description here) allegiance to this concept of State, and a xenophobic relationship with everyone who is not. It's class warfare.
The Citizen is very much the State, just as the State is the Citizen. They are inseparable. To insist otherwise is to admit ignorance of the Confederation.
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I can never tell if you're IC or not.
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The Capellan understanding of egalitarianism is that every person born in the Confederation gets the same education and the same chance to become a Citizen. That does not mean that all people live equal lives any more than it means that every bumb in the Davion outback deserves to be as wealthy as the First Prince. Whether you choose to earn your Citizenship or not is on you, but it was not your birth that held you back.
And that includes the servitors:
As with other castes, servitors may earn (or attempt to re-earn) their citizenship after ten years of service, and more and more servitors have done so since 3052. The children of servitors are treated like any other Capellan child, entered into state schools and given the same citizenship requirements as the children of Capellan nobles.
Handbook: House Liao p. 116.
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Was this trolling or did it have an actual point besides trying to irritate people in a rather good discussion? Just asking.
I'd want my property back if it was stolen, regardless of how long it took.
My point is that Capellans have a very flexible view on what is 'theirs' and what is not. Given, I do like the Capellan Confederation for actually managing to resist that black hole of a sue known as Devlin Stone, but the whole 'ancestral claims' thing rubs me the wrong way, mainly because it is used for worlds the Capellans have absolutly zero ancestral claim on (the old Terran Hegemony worlds, for example).
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Does part of joining the Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes include a full frontal lobotomy? Because I like my lobes intact thanks.
(http://sp8.fotolog.com/photo/24/3/101/bolaenlaingle/1132977818_f.jpg)
Welcome to the Confederation new citizen! I hope you enjoyed your re-education on our Citizenship camps!
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Or, they can be reworked to ensure the betterment of ALL the Capellan people -- even the disenfranchised among the Servitor caste.
And they can be further reworked, at whim.
You will forgive me that I don't trust the Chancellor.
(Yes, this applies to the other states as well. I do not automatically trust the Archon, the First Prince, or the Captain-General, and I certainly do not trust the Coordinator. Even when a house lord proves himself or herself to be an intelligent and moral leader, that does not translate to trust for his or her children.)
I'd want my property back if it was stolen, regardless of how long it took.
It seems rather odd to me to claim that the Confederation owns worlds that have been part of other nations for centuries on end, even against the will of the people of those worlds.
I have to confess as well, I find it rather odd that the Confederation continues to make claim to worlds that were ceded to the Federated Suns by the Chancellor himself in 2861. (p. 32 HB:HL.) As far as I can tell, the rule seems to be that something is Capellan property - or an 'ancestral Capellan world' - if there was ever, at any point during the last thousand years, no matter how brief, a Capellan flag flying above the government house, and that there is nothing whatsoever, not even a formal treaty signed by the Chancellor himself, that can make such a world cease to be Capellan property.
I thoroughly disagree. I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks. It encourages vice and sloth and burdens societies best and brightest with the task of perpetually babysitting an ever-growing population of self-absorbed, arrogant, uncaring human animals with a grand sense of entitlement.
As Gracus pointed out, the servitors still exist in Capellan society. If that were truly the position you held: why not deport all of the servitors? If they are only leeches, then remove them all, or exterminate them all.
But the fact is that servitors do exist in Capellan society. They live and work in that society, in some sense contributing to it thereby, and, if you insist, 'leeching' from the 'productives'. (Whatever they are supposed to be. Talk about 'leeches' and 'productives' and so on has uncomfortably Randian overtones.) Denying them citizenship does not actually prevent this 'leech-like' behaviour. It denies them ability to contribute to society more productively, and it obviously denies them certain civil rights; but it does not actually do anything to solve the problem you described.
The community is very much self-selecting. You choose whether or not to apply for Citizenship. Those who become Citizens then become part of the body that sets the criteria.
Silly me. I did not realise that the Confederation was democratic.
(Er, that is sarcasm, by the way.)
I promise you that was not the argument type. It is an argument that strictly is out to break the myth the Lyrans spread that they are a bunch of people who think the universe is made only of love and peace and only fight for self defense. The reason they attack the League is because it has what they want, heavy industry, the Combine is nothing in comparison in that regard.
As I recall the old topic - yes, I lurked - severe questions were raised about the history of the League-Lyran border. At the moment, so we're clear, I am neither accepting nor denying your assertion.
I can never tell if you're IC or not.
Confederation fans are fun like that.
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My point is that Capellans have a very flexible view on what is 'theirs' and what is not. Given, I do like the Capellan Confederation for actually managing to resist that black hole of a sue known as Devlin Stone, but the whole 'ancestral claims' thing rubs me the wrong way, mainly because it is used for worlds the Capellans have absolutly zero ancestral claim on (the old Terran Hegemony worlds, for example).
I don't often give much heed to the Capellan "ancestral claims" in my campaigns. It's more a propaganda-machine operated by the government and meant to help ensure its popularity among the hardliners.
You know, just like what most other typically human-natured governments ALWAYS tend to claim at one point or another.
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And they can be further reworked, at whim.
Eh. I could accept that if it was merely an off-hand notion or something quickly put into place by the Chancellor.
However, the portion of text I quoted earlier notes that this particular move to ensure greater rights for the servitors, has been building for almost a decade. It's a significant step toward positive change in the greater make-up of Capellan society.
That doesn't sound all that whimsical.
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I thoroughly disagree. I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks. It encourages vice and sloth and burdens societies best and brightest with the task of perpetually babysitting an ever-growing population of self-absorbed, arrogant, uncaring human animals with a grand sense of entitlement. At this point, however, we are really just discussing personal preferense, so there's little more to discuss.
How is recognizing people's basic human rights "leeching off society?" If wanting people to recognize that yes, you are a person and have the same rights to free speech and expression as someone who professes the correct political ideology, then perhaps it's better to be the entitled one than someone who espouses a philosophy that would claim you need to work for the betterment of the State to prove you are human.
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I can never tell if you're IC or not.
Both. :)
My point is that Capellans have a very flexible view on what is 'theirs' and what is not. Given, I do like the Capellan Confederation for actually managing to resist that black hole of a sue known as Devlin Stone, but the whole 'ancestral claims' thing rubs me the wrong way, mainly because it is used for worlds the Capellans have absolutly zero ancestral claim on (the old Terran Hegemony worlds, for example).
It's rare to hear that argued, but generally it is from the perspective that when the Hegemony became defunct and the Confederation became their caretaker, they became Capellan worlds from that point forward. I don't think I'd have a problem ceding the Hegemony worlds to a region who's government I felt adequately reflected a successor to the Hegemony, but I'm not the Chancellor.
It seems rather odd to me to claim that the Confederation owns worlds that have been part of other nations for centuries on end, even against the will of the people of those worlds.
It's only odd because other nations are quitters.
I have to confess as well, I find it rather odd that the Confederation continues to make claim to worlds that were ceded to the Federated Suns by the Chancellor himself in 2861. (p. 32 HB:HL.)
Please, who doesn't lie to their enemies, particularly if it will cause them to drop their guard or loosen their grip.
As Gracus pointed out, the servitors still exist in Capellan society. If that were truly the position you held: why not deport all of the servitors?
It would cost a massive amount of money and resources. Meanwhile, they can squat in the corner for free.
If they are only leeches, then remove them all, or exterminate them all.
Likewise, killing them all would require resources and time better spent. Besides, there's always the chance a servitor might get it together and become a Citizen. No reason to deny them that chance, really.
But the fact is that servitors do exist in Capellan society. They live and work in that society
, in some sense contributing to it thereby, and, if you insist, 'leeching' from the 'productives'.
If you don't give them anything, they really aren't leeching. Just because someone lives next door do me doesn't mean they are taking anything from me, nor does it mean they are providing me with anything. They are simply worthless neighbors, essentially.
Denying them citizenship does not actually prevent this 'leech-like' behaviour.
The Confederation does not provide a servitor with a thin yuan. The bullet for their head if they misbehave will cost the state less than it costs to sweep the street. No Citizen of the Confederation is ever forced by the Confederation to pay or provide for a servitor. If they do so of their own volition, that is their own (foolish) decision.
It denies them ability to contribute to society more productively
Hardly. If they really cared for their society, they shouldn't need any sort of compensation to start helping it, even if they just start cleaning public phones or something.
and it obviously denies them certain civil rights
Doesn't really bother me any. If they wanted society's help they should have contributed. There's no free lunch in life.
but it does not actually do anything to solve the problem you described.
It most certainly does. By refusing to coddle these miscreants, we've set the example that nothing is free. Society simply doesn't have to put up with and provide for you. A better society comes from those in it giving back to it. By not wasting resources on those who don't wish to participate, we provide a better life for those that do. It is a motivation for proper behavior and a reservation of resources for those most deserving.
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MadCap, you keep using the words "contributing" or "participating", but you haven't yet defined what you mean by them. What counts as "contributing" or "participating" in Capellan society? And who gets to set those definitions?
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In your own words, "you have to do something to prove you'r a person."
What is a person? Just something that wants. Something that wants as much as it can get.
Simply existing, or existing only for oneself will never grant you everything you want. Deep down as humans, we constantly want more of everything. The trouble is, we can't get everything we want by ourselves. In fact, it's common that one never finds the life he or she really wants to live before they die. In that perspective, you haven't really achieved what your intended purpose was, and you might as well have been a rotting sack of flesh and bones for that entire century. Just like the corpse of an elderly human that you become.
But you can still salvage some hope. If you happen to exist in that deep green section of galaxy down there, there's one most obvious option to take to get at least MORE of what you wanted, MORE of the life that you desire to live. The option is to prove yourself to a bunch of bullies you don't know, who may or may not let you into their awesome VIP club. Sounds a bit foolish, right? I hope you'll tolerate me tripping your "freak" alarm again, because I think such a predicament is -natural-.
I think working to prove yourself as someone who deserves to live is much more rewarding, more ENLIGHTENING, than lying around being ignorant of what you take for granted, being ignorant of what it feels like to be trampled upon, having no hunger to rise up to better your station. The Confederation is a vehicle that can serve such a purpose, a mutual fund of ambition and labor and perseverance, if you will. You work to own things, you work for your human rights, and you work to prove you exist as you want to exist. (Thinking positively: why, as a Servitor, should you be afraid to fail to become a Citizen, when you have nothing to lose?) How is that less respectable than muddling around with faraway concepts of "freedom" while living in societies with "basic human rights" that don't even put food on your table, let alone make you feel better about doing something for others?
who is honestly okay with not having basic human rights?
This guy I know...his main drive in life is to please others, often with disregard for himself. And he goes quite far with it. He enjoys most things around him, as well as things that happen to him or are done to him. He'll play the bitch if he feels it would make others want to keep him around. And if not...well, he'd be okay with you killing him, too. He understands. You can categorize that as a martyr complex or whatever all you like--his values are just firmly placed in certain concepts that just set him apart from a lot of other people.
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So you need to separate your underclass and kick them around to feel good about your State-worship, because look how much worse it would be for us if we were the ones being victimized!
I, on the other hand, contribute to my society quite nicely by being self-sufficent, paying taxes, and not breaking any laws. Any society where that isn't enough is not one that deserves to exist. The state exists at the sufferance of the people, not the other way around.
As far as your acquaintance goes, just based on what I have read, he is displaying signs of psych problems that would benefit from treatment. My condolences.
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MadCap, you keep using the words "contributing" or "participating", but you haven't yet defined what you mean by them. What counts as "contributing" or "participating" in Capellan society? And who gets to set those definitions?
Both House Liao sourcebooks spell it out pretty clearly. Initially as a young Capellan, becoming a Citizen requires a service to the State, your community. A simple example given would be joining the Capellan Star Scouts. Other similar options are likely volunteering to clean streets and public buildings, caretaking local libraries, helping out at the local retirement home, producing a mural exalting the Confederation, or other such acts of merit. All of these are extremely simple tasks I wouldn't consider beyond the capabilities of any motivated individual.
Should an individual fail to accomplish this service in their youth and be regulated to the servitor cast, all hope is not lost. While the standards for servitors to become Citizens are often slightly more stringent, requiring several years of voluntary labor, for example, ultimately, they may attain the same Citizenship as any other Capellan.
The Ministry of Social Education is the body which determines Citizenship, a massive body which also oversees the Capellan education system, which is made up of millions of members of the Supporter & Directorship castes. As caste leaders are elected by the membership, one can expect the standards set by such individuals to be generally well accepted by the Citizenry as a whole.
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So you need to separate your underclass and kick them around to feel good about your State-worship, because look how much worse it would be for us if we were the ones being victimized!
I think you completely missed the point. Citizenship is about living for a higher purpose than yourself. It isn't about looking down on servitors, it's about being more than a mere human animal. Anyone can simply go through life looking out for no one but themselves. It takes a higher caliber of person to look out for their community as a whole, even at their own expense.
As far as your acquaintance goes, just based on what I have read, he is displaying signs of psych problems that would benefit from treatment. My condolences.
There might have been some slight exaggeration to what my friend said about him, but I'd describe our mutual friend as having a very enlightened Buddhist or Taoist outlook about life. Rather than go through life fighting reality constantly, he has found contentment in existence. He exists in the place without wind, not wanting and not struggling. I personally find him pretty inspiring.
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Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense. In addition to having recent Communist histories (or present) all three have had (or have) strong collectivist cultures. Even the Republic of China, aka Taiwan is vaguely democratic but still suffers under traditional Chinese Confucianism. Historically Russia was ruled by the Tzarist regime which had the backing of the Orthodox Church, making them an absolute monarch in every sense, putting even the kings of Europe to shame. During the Soviet era there were dramatically more rights and privileges for Party members Boris. There's plenty of parallels in modern North Korea to be seen in the CapCon, like the preference of distributing resources to military participants first.
Point is, it's entirely unfair to judge the CapCon in a western context. The three primary cultures of the CapCon are very different than the European cultures that dominate the other houses. It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have. The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.
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Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense. In addition to having recent Communist histories (or present) all three have had (or have) strong collectivist cultures. Even the Republic of China, aka Taiwan is vaguely democratic but still suffers under traditional Chinese Confucianism.
Suffers?
Point is, it's entirely unfair to judge the CapCon in a western context. The three primary cultures of the CapCon are very different than the European cultures that dominate the other houses. It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have. The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.
Of course, a state-centered people mentality can exist in a (classically) liberal, free-market system (a la South Korea). But Chancellor Franco Liao evidently chose not to follow this model.
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I'll make a longer reply tomorrow. Right now I would just like to comment:
Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense.
Aren't considerable portions of the Confederation of English or Scottish background? Victoria Commonality was mostly British, I think. (Mind you, I'd have to check my maps... I'm honestly not sure whether the Victoria Commonality is part of the Confederation or the Federated Suns now. ;) )
In any case, I hardly think that the bland assertion that it's a different culture excuses any and all crimes. (For the record, if the Confederation were correct, the Lyrans or League could not excuse themselves by saying 'our cultures are different'.) Complete cultural relativism very quickly becomes a meaningless position.
I admit that I also find the implication here to be vaguely offensive. Are Asian or Russian peoples inherently more tolerant of tyranny? I don't mean to get into a real world debate here, but you mention Soviet Russia and North Korea. I seem to recall large numbers of people in Soviet Russia being dissatisfied with their government; and I would certainly challenge any assertion that the culture of North Korea - whatever that is supposed to be - justifies the things the North Korean government does to its people.
It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have.
You missed Kurita. Definitely not Western or liberal there.
Though I also question whether we should really think of the Suns, League, and Commonwealth as Western liberal states. There are some similarities, but it seems to me also some major differences and evolutions; the existence of titled aristocracies being the major one.
The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.
...I really have to say, I find that edging on offensive. Not only is it historically and culturally ignorant, it ultimately amounts to nothing less than a denial that human rights exist.
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So you need to separate your underclass and kick them around to feel good about your State-worship, because look how much worse it would be for us if we were the ones being victimized!
I, on the other hand, contribute to my society quite nicely by being self-sufficent, paying taxes, and not breaking any laws. Any society where that isn't enough is not one that deserves to exist. The state exists at the sufferance of the people, not the other way around.
You completely ignored my perspective of what it means to be a human.
As for you, I feel sorry for you. I am sorry that you don't care to step off of your little island of individualism to do just one thing that isn't ultimately self-serving.
...I really have to say, I find that edging on offensive. Not only is it historically and culturally ignorant, it ultimately amounts to nothing less than a denial that human rights exist.
I do too. Art and religion are not stifled like in the Capellan Confederation like they have been in previous regimes of the countries False Son lists off, for one.
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If you're going to start being condescending as well, I'm done. Suffice to say, you don't know shit about me, so don't pretend you do.
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Why would you jump into a thread to make snide "summarizations" of peoples' opinions if you knew people were going to get aggravated enough at you to retaliate?
Seeing as how the CapCon is based on Chinese, Russian and Korean stereotypes, some of this makes sense. In addition to having recent Communist histories (or present) all three have had (or have) strong collectivist cultures. Even the Republic of China, aka Taiwan is vaguely democratic but still suffers under traditional Chinese Confucianism.
Would you kindly explain why you used that word? Also, seeing as the diversity of the Confederation is far greater, and spread out amongst a vastly larger space, how are you drawing the conclusion that this is what causes people within the Confederation's borders to buy into the social ladder of Citizenship?
Historically Russia was ruled by the Tzarist regime which had the backing of the Orthodox Church, making them an absolute monarch in every sense, putting even the kings of Europe to shame. During the Soviet era there were dramatically more rights and privileges for Party members Boris.
See my previous post.
There's plenty of parallels in modern North Korea to be seen in the CapCon, like the preference of distributing resources to military participants first.
In a fictional universe with subtitle: A TIME OF WAR. The Lorix Order emphasizing the janshi over other Citizens is touted as necessary because they are the ones who send themselves to die first in service to the State (AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE STATE).
Point is, it's entirely unfair to judge the CapCon in a western context. The three primary cultures of the CapCon are very different than the European cultures that dominate the other houses. It's their right to reject western liberalism, as they have. The Capellan system is similar to the historical structures in place by China, Russia and North Korea, with leader-veneration being a central tenant and community oriented, strictly disciplined cultures.
I believe this is not a subject which we can observe objectively with our technology and our number of unproven psychological hypotheses....especially when given current events in various parts of the world.
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Why would you jump into a thread to make snide "summarizations" of peoples' opinions if you knew people were going to get aggravated enough at you to retaliate?
Would you kindly explain why you used that word? Also, seeing as the diversity of the Confederation is far greater, and spread out amongst a vastly larger space, how are you drawing the conclusion that this is what causes people within the Confederation's borders to buy into the social ladder of Citizenship?
See my previous post.
He did not ignore it, you just assumed he would agree with you because you said something. People will have different opinions and will read things from your quotes that even you don't see, live with it. I am not being hostile, I am just saying calm down. other posters and I have agreed to disagree in the past, sometimes you must do the same. I don't hate them, or see him as having inferior intellect and they probably see it the same. I don't see you as inferior, yet I disagree vehemently like Vash with your argument.
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Would you kindly explain why you used that word? Also, seeing as the diversity of the Confederation is far greater, and spread out amongst a vastly larger space, how are you drawing the conclusion that this is what causes people within the Confederation's borders to buy into the social ladder of Citizenship?
Not to speak for him, but I read that under the definition of suffer: "to undergo or experience any action, process, or condition."
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Not to speak for him, but I read that under the definition of suffer: "to undergo or experience any action, process, or condition."
"Suffer" means that, but almost always in the context of being forced or having no choice but to bear it, i.e. against one's will or wishes. Hence, I think it's reasonable to read it in a pejorative sense.
According it Webster:
Definition of SUFFER
transitive verb
1 a: to submit to or be forced to endure <suffer martyrdom> b: to feel keenly : labor under <suffer thirst>
2: undergo, experience
3: to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable
4: to allow especially by reason of indifference <the eagle suffers little birds to sing — Shakespeare>
intransitive verb
1: to endure death, pain, or distress
2: to sustain loss or damage
3: to be subject to disability or handicap
— suf·fer·able adjective
— suf·fer·able·ness noun
— suf·fer·ably adverb
— suf·fer·er noun
See suffer defined for English-language learners »
See suffer defined for kids »
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Would you kindly explain why you used that word?
This actually does require some elaboration. First, suffer is not the optimal term, apologies to anyone offended. The reference to Taiwan and Confucianism is based off an observation of Taiwan's legal recognition of certain Confuciusian teachings. Women in Taiwan were previously given a legally backed lower status than men, including not being able to divorce their husbands without his concent, not having a say in naming of children, educational discrimination and a few other things. Now granted, this has been diminished by constitutional reforms in the mid 90s (another parallel in the CapCon) but was believed, at least by the historical analysis (admittedly conducted by an American) i encountered in college to be attributed to adherence to Confuciusian, patriarchal beliefs. It's not fair to use that as a criticism of the whole country, that's true. The same text also infered that Confucianism made it's followers docile and submissive, which i would certainly refute. Cold War socio political analysis has a way of demeaning everyone it touchs for the sake of easy generalizations.
But, as i said before, i believe the CapCon is based on stereotypes of China, Russia and Korea, and enough posters have said themselves that they feel they are largely negative stereotypes.
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This actually does require some elaboration. First, suffer is not the optimal term, apologies to anyone offended. The reference to Taiwan and Confucianism is based off an observation of Taiwan's legal recognition of certain Confuciusian teachings. Women in Taiwan were previously given a legally backed lower status than men, including not being able to divorce their husbands without his concent, not having a say in naming of children, educational discrimination and a few other things. Now granted, this has been diminished by constitutional reforms in the mid 90s (another parallel in the CapCon) but was believed, at least by the historical analysis (admittedly conducted by an American) i encountered in college to be attributed to adherence to Confuciusian, patriarchal beliefs. It's not fair to use that as a criticism of the whole country, that's true. The same text also infered that Confucianism made it's followers docile and submissive, which i would certainly refute. Cold War socio political analysis has a way of demeaning everyone it touchs for the sake of easy generalizations.
But, as i said before, i believe the CapCon is based on stereotypes of China, Russia and Korea, and enough posters have said themselves that they feel they are largely negative stereotypes.
To this day, Confuciusian is heavily influential in all aspects of South Korean culture, but I doubt my mother would say she "suffers" under her proud culture. But it is greatly misunderstood in Western eyes, so I can see how an Occidental would see it as such. That's how I see the Capellan Confederation (and the discussion in this thread). The CapCon is not evil---it is misunderstood. And the cultural flavor present in the BT universe is what makes it so interesting as opposed to a black-and-white good-guy bad-guy mentality (Stackpole notwithstanding).
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I've been trying to say the same thing, tripped over my tongue and brain. I'm not really fond of the characterization of Scots and Russians being easy traitors when threatened either. The CapCon has gotten a bad shake, as has the Combine. I've resisted the urge to just chalk it up to racisim of the times, seeing as how things were not so good with China and the Soviet Union at the time of the writing of the original handbooks. Sadly, Stackpole's writing doesn't do much to persuade me otherwise.
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I've been trying to say the same thing, tripped over my tongue and brain. I'm not really fond of the characterization of Scots and Russians being easy traitors when threatened either. The CapCon has gotten a bad shake, as has the Combine. I've resisted the urge to just chalk it up to racisim of the times, seeing as how things were not so good with China and the Soviet Union at the time of the writing of the original handbooks. Sadly, Stackpole's writing doesn't do much to persuade me otherwise.
Well, you know, the Combine is evil. ;D
<ducks!>
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That's debateable. That they've been portrayed as the do no right, self defeating, honor bound samurai man is not. There's alot to say they're "the bad guys" simply because only good guys are competant in the BT universe.
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That means the AFFS must have been pretty evil up until the Kentares Massacre.
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Dude, the Maskirovka agent stepped outside for a cigarette. You can stop reading off the teleprompter.
Can't smoke on duty anymore. Hell, can't even light 'em up anymore to put out on dissidents and foreign spies during interrogation. Those dumbasses at the State health ministry are whining about second hand smoke on State facilities. ::)
Fortunately, smokeless tobacco is still allowed. I'm trying to come up with creative uses for smokeless in our little "O&A" sessions. }:)
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Its okay, they will really love the increased costs chewing tobacco will bring to them. Lets not even get in to dipping. The classic law of unintended consequences.
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The CapCon is not evil---it is misunderstood.
"We're not evil at all. We're just differently good."
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"We're not evil at all. We're just differently good."
Creatively good, shall we say? I could get behind such a label. ;)
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Creatively good, shall we say? I could get behind such a label. ;)
'Creatively Good' suggests more wacky hijinks than I see the Capellans typically performing, although that might just be me. I'd go the Terry Pratchett Route and call the Capellans Good*.
*For a Given Value of 'Good.'
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How about selfishly good? That sounds about right
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'Creatively Good' suggests more wacky hijinks than I see the Capellans typically performing, although that might just be me. I'd go the Terry Pratchett Route and call the Capellans Good*.
*For a Given Value of 'Good.'
Which brings to mind one of my favourite "Discworld" quotes, and is suitably applicable to the Capellan Confederation, I suppose:-
"A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least he could tell the people he was their fault."
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Which brings to mind one of my favourite "Discworld" quotes, and is suitably applicable to the Capellan Confederation, I suppose:-
"A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least he could tell the people he was their fault."
The Capellans are Vetinarian Good.
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The Capellans are Vetinarian Good.
Quote of the Day. ;)
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That means the AFFS must have been pretty evil up until the Kentares Massacre.
Considering that Jinjiro Kurita's Daimyo used to watch the executions on Kentares is considered a national tressure, i'd say the Combine is more hung up on the killing of Miniro Kurita than the civilians.
No wait, i got it. FS was evil until Kentares because they didn't care enough about their civilians to win the war until after Kentares. Yes, that'll do, right O5P?
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I was going for the incompetance problems that plagued them due to paperwork. The Kentares Massacre caused the AFFS to prioritize success over paperwork. It was said the bad guys are always incompetant so that was a jest. Hanse was noted by Theodore to have retreated during the War of 3039 because he cared about his people in an interesting tidbit, and had his respect for it.
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The CapCon is not evil---it is misunderstood. And the cultural flavor present in the BT universe is what makes it so interesting as opposed to a black-and-white good-guy bad-guy mentality (Stackpole notwithstanding).
That's a cop out. An out and out one at that. Every single government in the IS has spent so long fighting petty wars that "protecting one's sovereignty" is as tired any other phrase. Even worse, they're all so "evil" that it's just jingo, plain and simple to call them good, or even neutral. Accept being evil. If the CC were "misunderstood", it would be doing whatever it is they do in a manner that looks disgusting, but actually helping. Instead, the CC reminds me of the kids that would make every effort to rub others' noses in it while they had power, but calling for the teacher the moment that power shifts.
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Instead, the CC reminds me of the kids that would make every effort to rub others' noses in it while they had power, but calling for the teacher the moment that power shifts.
I don't see how that's possible, when the most power the Confederation ever had over other nations was to have its leader be nominally in charge of a completely throw away international body with no real power which existed for a purpose it fulfilled under his watch. Sounds pretty straight to me.
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(Okay, random question: is there a way to get rid of the row of emoticons immediately above the text box? The repeating animations distract me while I'm typing and I wish I could hide them.)
Eh. I could accept that if it was merely an off-hand notion or something quickly put into place by the Chancellor.
However, the portion of text I quoted earlier notes that this particular move to ensure greater rights for the servitors, has been building for almost a decade. It's a significant step toward positive change in the greater make-up of Capellan society.
That doesn't sound all that whimsical.
Given enough time, I would say, popular movements will have an effect in any state: even the Draconis Combine, or a similarly repressive state. That is not the issue. Rather, it's whether the structure of the state allows those movements to have an effect.
Please, who doesn't lie to their enemies, particularly if it will cause them to drop their guard or loosen their grip.
It's this sort of thing - the brazen admission that the Confederation does not consider itself bound by any treaty it signs - that makes me wonder why anyone is ever stupid enough to make any agreement with the Confederation at all. Isn't this practically the textbook definition of a rogue state?
If you don't give them anything, they really aren't leeching. Just because someone lives next door do me doesn't mean they are taking anything from me, nor does it mean they are providing me with anything. They are simply worthless neighbors, essentially.
They are taking up space. They are de facto owning land. They purchase items from domestic markets, and sell their labour in order to be able to do so.
The fact is that servitors don't exist in a walled off bubble from the rest of Capellan society. They live in it every day, use and consume the resources of the state (for presumably you would say that all the land within the Confederation is ultimately the property of the state), and contribute to the societies they live in. It is impossible for it to be otherwise.
The Confederation does not provide a servitor with a thin yuan.
It is demonstrably true that servitors, purely by living in the Confederation, make use of resources that you would consider to be the property of the Confederation.
Doesn't really bother me any. If they wanted society's help they should have contributed. There's no free lunch in life.
Question: so you deny that there any human rights or civil rights? Would you argue that there are no rights of any sort, outside of those created by social convention, and which may therefore by denied by social convention to any arbitrarily selected sub-set of the populace?
It most certainly does. By refusing to coddle these miscreants, we've set the example that nothing is free. Society simply doesn't have to put up with and provide for you. A better society comes from those in it giving back to it. By not wasting resources on those who don't wish to participate, we provide a better life for those that do.
As above: things are free. Servitors do use the resources of the Capellan state. Even on the most basic level imaginable, purely by existing servitors have received a great deal of benefit. A servitor who lives on a Capellan world makes constant use of public resources: he or she lives on a planet that was terraformed and colonised, in a society built and administered by the efforts of countless others, and so on and so forth. Servitors use public goods every time they walk down a road, sit on a park bench, or see by the light of a street-lamp. This strange idea that somehow servitors receive nothing from the state and have no relation with the state is, to be frank, entirely asinine. And turning it around the other way, servitors do contribute to society as well, simply by working and being able to purchase the necessities of life.
At any rate. You mention 'participation'. That's the word that really worries me. Becoming a citzen means participating in a series of approved activities. These activities are selected and judged on the basis of political orthodoxy, and with an eye to indoctrination. While civil rights can be stripped in other states, this only occurs on the basis of criminal, i.e. grossly anti-social, behaviour, which can be judged with a far greater eye to objectivity. (See p. 109-113 of the 3025 HLSB. I consider it valid, as we are not simply discussing the Confederation of 3067, but the Confederation in general. The much more recent HB:HL, even though it's from a pro-Liao source, still admits to this. P. 114 notes programmes of 'social and political indoctrination', and that failure to meet the citizenship requirements is considered evidence of 'a lack of sufficient moral character'. The citizenship criteria, and the Confederation education system, are specifically designed to indoctrinate Capellans with a specific value set: that is, fanatical loyalty to the state and House Liao. See p. 116: it is education 'designed to serve and empower the state'.)
I would view this as quite unacceptable. That is: in the Capellan Confederation, basic civil liberties are contingent on one's ability to internalise and repeat a state-imposed ideology. I find it doubly unacceptable that the said ideology is one of fanatical devotion to the state. The Confederation, I would argue, is in this way openly hostile to any attempts by its people to define the values and directions of their own lives.
What is a person? Just something that wants. Something that wants as much as it can get.
...I was going to go with 'a miserable pile of secrets' myself, but whatever floats your boat.
Both House Liao sourcebooks spell it out pretty clearly. Initially as a young Capellan, becoming a Citizen requires a service to the State, your community. A simple example given would be joining the Capellan Star Scouts. Other similar options are likely volunteering to clean streets and public buildings, caretaking local libraries, helping out at the local retirement home, producing a mural exalting the Confederation, or other such acts of merit. All of these are extremely simple tasks I wouldn't consider beyond the capabilities of any motivated individual.
And yet, spelled out pretty clearly by both House Liao sourcebooks, the servitor caste is the largest caste in the Confederation by a comfortable margin.
Either there are a hell of a lot of lazy and unmotivated individuals out there, or things aren't quite as rosy as you make them sound...
I think you completely missed the point. Citizenship is about living for a higher purpose than yourself.
And that purpose is the state.
That's the major issue, I think. I fully approve of living for higher purposes. It is merely the case that the Confederation decides what that purpose is and tells you what it will be.
If the CC were "misunderstood", it would be doing whatever it is they do in a manner that looks disgusting, but actually helping. Instead, the CC reminds me of the kids that would make every effort to rub others' noses in it while they had power, but calling for the teacher the moment that power shifts.
*shrug* Pretty much.
I don't see how that's possible, when the most power the Confederation ever had over other nations was to have its leader be nominally in charge of a completely throw away international body with no real power which existed for a purpose it fulfilled under his watch. Sounds pretty straight to me.
I wonder how many non-Capellans would agree with that assessment of the Star League.
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That's a cop out. An out and out one at that. Every single government in the IS has spent so long fighting petty wars that "protecting one's sovereignty" is as tired any other phrase. Even worse, they're all so "evil" that it's just jingo, plain and simple to call them good, or even neutral. Accept being evil. If the CC were "misunderstood", it would be doing whatever it is they do in a manner that looks disgusting, but actually helping. Instead, the CC reminds me of the kids that would make every effort to rub others' noses in it while they had power, but calling for the teacher the moment that power shifts.
I didn't call them or any other power in the BT Universe good. Or "neutral." Just because something isn't evil doesn't mean that it's necessarily good. Of course, I didn't say that they were not good, either....
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(Okay, random question: is there a way to get rid of the row of emoticons immediately above the text box? The repeating animations distract me while I'm typing and I wish I could hide them.)
My apologies, my friend, but I'm not aware of any. :-\
It's this sort of thing - the brazen admission that the Confederation does not consider itself bound by any treaty it signs - that makes me wonder why anyone is ever stupid enough to make any agreement with the Confederation at all. Isn't this practically the textbook definition of a rogue state?
Yep, our enemies are pretty foolish aren't they? I wouldn't say that the Confederation is inherently untrustworthy, but if you've been attacking us or had a history of attacking us I can't see why you would expect us to be straight with you: that's what warfare's about. Expecting otherwise is as silly as the Clans and their batchall nonsense.
They are taking up space.
So do trees.
They are de facto owning land.
So do beavers. If a Citizen wants the land, he simply pushes the servitor or beaver off of it.
They purchase items from domestic markets, and sell their labour in order to be able to do so.
One purchases goods and demands a wage for one's own benefit, not that of your community.
The fact is that servitors don't exist in a walled off bubble from the rest of Capellan society. They live in it every day, use and consume the resources of the state (for presumably you would say that all the land within the Confederation is ultimately the property of the state), and contribute to the societies they live in. It is impossible for it to be otherwise.
Some benefits of the State are by their very nature ambient. Stray cats may walk down a street or forage under streetlights, but that doesn't mean the State is expending funds or effort for their welfare. What, do you think animals should be made citizens? You'll have a hard time getting them to pay taxes.
Question: so you deny that there any human rights or civil rights? Would you argue that there are no rights of any sort, outside of those created by social convention, and which may therefore by denied by social convention to any arbitrarily selected sub-set of the populace?
I personally believe that there is a standard by which all people should be treated. What I disagree with is the idea that it is the inherent responsibility of the artificially created entity known as the State to enforce such standards for all people everywhere. Those who are outside of the State, be they in a foreign nation or simply non-Citizens, are outside of the State's responsibility.
I would view this as quite unacceptable. That is: in the Capellan Confederation, basic civil liberties are contingent on one's ability to internalise and repeat a state-imposed ideology.
Correction: In the Capellan Confederation, the State's protection and enforcement of your civil liberties are contingent on one's demonstrated willingness to act in the interests of one's community. The State does not waste time and resources of those who do on those who cannot do so.
And yet, spelled out pretty clearly by both House Liao sourcebooks, the servitor caste is the largest caste in the Confederation by a comfortable margin.
It's extremely unclear, actually. The HLSB seems to indicate that it is, but also insists that the vast majority are the population of worlds captured during the Succession Wars, an impossibility, since the Confederation lost ground almost constantly during them. Considering how error ridden the rest of the book is, I take it with a huge grain of salt.
HB:HL indicates that it is the "largest caste to grow out of the Succession Wars", a pretty confusing statement, which seems to indicate that it had the most growth during the Succession Wars, because all known castes, including the servitor caste, predate the Succession Wars.
Other sources, including the Battletech RPG & some of the Dark Age material, seem to indicate that servitors make up somewhere between 20-30% of the Capellan population, which I'd say is a reasonable expectation given the number of criminals, layabouts, and inhabitants of newly reclaimed worlds there are out there.
And that purpose is the state.
That's the major issue, I think. I fully approve of living for higher purposes. It is merely the case that the Confederation decides what that purpose is and tells you what it will be.
When one defines the State as I do: as you and your fellow community members, participating of their own volition, for the betterment of the entire community, then it certainly seems like a grand thing to participate in. I think the problem is not the Capellan State, but your inherent skepticism of government, a typical American trait, but not a universal virtue.
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Let's try a proof!
Amaris was evil.
Amaris ruled the RWR (see Kerensky vs. Amaris).
The RWR used a lot of flamers on their 'Mechs and Vehicles (Ignus, Rampage, Whitworth).
The Capellans use flamers on their version of the Warhammer (circa 3025).
Therefore the Capellans are evil.
:D
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Let's try a proof!
Amaris was evil.
Amaris ruled the RWR (see Kerensky vs. Amaris).
The RWR used a lot of flamers on their 'Mechs and Vehicles (Ignus, Rampage, Whitworth).
The Capellans use flamers on their version of the Warhammer (circa 3025).
Therefore the Capellans are evil.
:D
Girlfriends are also evil. Here's a simple proof.
- We all know that girlfriends require two things: Time and Money. Girlfriends = Time * Money
- We also know that time is money. Time = Money ∴ Girlfriends = Money * Money = Money2
- And we know that money is the root of all Evil. √Evil = Money ∴ Girlfriends = √Evil2
- Of course, taking the root and the square of something cancels each other out. Girlfriends = Evil.
So the solution to evil in the Inner Sphere... everyone should get married or remain celibate.
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So the solution to evil in the Inner Sphere... everyone should get married or remain celibate.
And thus the Clans rule the universe.
Also, as a Canopian first, I must take great umbrage with your suggestion sir.
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Girlfriends are also evil. Here's a simple proof.
Of course. They are women and Herb's Grand Theory of Humanity states that women are evil. No proof needed.
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Also, as a Canopian first, I must take great umbrage with your suggestion sir.
The proof doesn't work in Canopia because in Canopia, they're free. Proof fails.
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Canopia?
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Canopia?
Yeah. Said it on purpose. Sounds more matriarchal then "Magistracy of Canopus."
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You make me sad.
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Let's try a proof!
Amaris was evil.
Amaris ruled the RWR (see Kerensky vs. Amaris).
The RWR used a lot of flamers on their 'Mechs and Vehicles (Ignus, Rampage, Whitworth).
The Capellans use flamers on their version of the Warhammer (circa 3025).
Therefore the Capellans are evil.
:D
This intrigues me. It also is a step towards crowning Kevin Bacon as the Chancellor though, and that's a path not to be followed.
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This intrigues me. It also is a step towards crowning Kevin Bacon as the Chancellor though, and that's a path not to be followed.
Surely it is superior to Kevin Costner!
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Surely it is superior to Kevin Costner!
Jim Gordon: "Bacon is the Chancellor the Confederation deserves, but not the one that it needs." :P
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Girlfriends are also evil. Here's a simple proof.
- We all know that girlfriends require two things: Time and Money. Girlfriends = Time * Money
- We also know that time is money. Time = Money ∴ Girlfriends = Money * Money = Money2
- And we know that money is the root of all Evil. √Evil = Money ∴ Girlfriends = √Evil2
I know I did a version of this and ended up with a different answer other than girls=evil. I remember what the answer was. I cannot remember precisely how I got there. And it's going to bother me all evening now. Thanks a lot.
Clearly, this proves that Capellans aren't evil, just jerks. ;)
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Yep, our enemies are pretty foolish aren't they? I wouldn't say that the Confederation is inherently untrustworthy, but if you've been attacking us or had a history of attacking us I can't see why you would expect us to be straight with you: that's what warfare's about. Expecting otherwise is as silly as the Clans and their batchall nonsense.
I do recall that the last time I was in one of those BattleTech RPs, playing a house lord, I did find myself constantly wishing I could make time to finish Hanse's job. The Confederation was the most hideously annoying successor state. Would have really liked to get around to wiping it out at some point...
Some benefits of the State are by their very nature ambient. Stray cats may walk down a street or forage under streetlights, but that doesn't mean the State is expending funds or effort for their welfare. What, do you think animals should be made citizens? You'll have a hard time getting them to pay taxes.
The point is that servitors play active roles in the economic and social lives of their communities. This is undeniable.
I personally believe that there is a standard by which all people should be treated. What I disagree with is the idea that it is the inherent responsibility of the artificially created entity known as the State to enforce such standards for all people everywhere. Those who are outside of the State, be they in a foreign nation or simply non-Citizens, are outside of the State's responsibility.
Who decides what the state's responsibility is? As you have it, the state itself is able to decide what its responsibility is.
Correction: In the Capellan Confederation, the State's protection and enforcement of your civil liberties are contingent on one's demonstrated willingness to act in the interests of one's community. The State does not waste time and resources of those who do on those who cannot do so.
Aren't you identifying 'community' with 'the state'? Servitors live and act in the interests of their local communities; though they may not act in the interests of the state. Further: what is one's community? For example, didn't Pavel Ridzik or Candace Liao act in the interests of their communities when they created the Tikonov Free Republic and St. Ives Compact? They acted to spare their worlds invasion, and obtained a good deal of economic and material aid from neighbouring states as a result.
At any rate. One's community is not the state. 'Community' is a general term for a population; 'state' refers specifically to the government. A community can change states; indeed, acting in the interests of one's community can necessitate destroying the state.
It's extremely unclear, actually. The HLSB seems to indicate that it is, but also insists that the vast majority are the population of worlds captured during the Succession Wars, an impossibility, since the Confederation lost ground almost constantly during them. Considering how error ridden the rest of the book is, I take it with a huge grain of salt.
HB:HL indicates that it is the "largest caste to grow out of the Succession Wars", a pretty confusing statement, which seems to indicate that it had the most growth during the Succession Wars, because all known castes, including the servitor caste, predate the Succession Wars.
Yes, I did find that amusing as well. Worlds captured in the Succession Wars? Ah, yes, during all those great Capellan victories! Victories like -
Oh. Oh, wait.
;D
Still, both books are clear that the servitor caste is very large. I would not be surprised if the Succession Wars were an excuse or justification for what is, in reality, a damning indictment of the Confederation's claim to social equity.
When one defines the State as I do: as you and your fellow community members, participating of their own volition, for the betterment of the entire community, then it certainly seems like a grand thing to participate in.
Unfortunately, that's not what the word 'state' means. Going by that definition, service to the state can include overthrowing the Capellan government itself. As above, I think what you've really done there is identified 'community' with the Capellan state; which makes the whole definition circular.
Still, it's unfair of me to define your terms for you. Tell me, then. How is a person to identify his or her community?
I think the problem is not the Capellan State, but your inherent skepticism of government, a typical American trait, but not a universal virtue.
Actually, I'm not American. Not even remotely.
And, for that matter, I find American culture disturbingly patriotic. A few years back an American friend reminded me that Americans actually say the Pledge of Allegiance in schools, and that creeps the hell out of me. I'd also say that the amount of power Americans are happy to give the president makes me uncomfortable, but I think I might be getting a bit much into real world politics. Best for me to shut up while I'm ahead. ;)
Anyway, one last thing. I should clarify. I don't think Capellans are evil; that is, the people who inhabit the worlds of the Capellan Confederation. They're just ordinary people, doing their best to survive and prosper. Criticising them would be petty tribalism. I think that the structure of the Capellan state is immensely unjust and that it should be either radically reformed or destroyed; but that's a different point. If the Capellan people were actually evil, then I would just sit here hating them, and probably be glad that they have the sort of the government they deserve. The point is that they should have a better government.
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Given enough time, I would say, popular movements will have an effect in any state: even the Draconis Combine, or a similarly repressive state. That is not the issue. Rather, it's whether the structure of the state allows those movements to have an effect.
More than likely. Considering that this particular movement has been gaining greater impetus, and helping to further redefine the status of the servitor in the eyes of Capellan society, as well as the fact that it's a directed effort by Sun-Tzu to bring the servitors greater rights.
The Confederation, by virtue of the greater societal shifts evidenced by the Xin Sheng movement, can handle change in the redefinition of its structure. And it was proved again, previously, during the fundamental political/societal transition of rule from Romano to Sun-Tzu.
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I know I did a version of this and ended up with a different answer other than girls=evil. I remember what the answer was. I cannot remember precisely how I got there. And it's going to bother me all evening now. Thanks a lot.
Clearly, this proves that Capellans aren't evil, just jerks. ;)
You know, I think I actually prefer that term, jerk. {>{>
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Anyway, one last thing. I should clarify. I don't think Capellans are evil; that is, the people who inhabit the worlds of the Capellan Confederation. They're just ordinary people, doing their best to survive and prosper. Criticising them would be petty tribalism. I think that the structure of the Capellan state is immensely unjust and that it should be either radically reformed or destroyed; but that's a different point. If the Capellan people were actually evil, then I would just sit here hating them, and probably be glad that they have the sort of the government they deserve. The point is that they should have a better government.
In fairness, aside from being being conquered by one of their neighbors, has the Confederation ever had any realistic mechanisms for enacting those sorts of reforms since it became a unified state? I mean, I guess there was Free Capella, although I'm not sure that they stood for anything other than planting Tormano Liao's ass on the Celestial Throne. I suppose Candace Liao could have killed Romano and taken over as Chancellor following the 4th War. Certainly the Capellan people would have better off for it, if only because Romano was a poor leader overall and hateful bitch to boot. But we never got much detail on the differences in society between Candace's Compact and the rest of the Confederation. So I'm not necessarily sold on notion that Candace would have heavily reformed the Confederation during her tenure either (although I'm willing to be convinced).
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In fairness, aside from being being conquered by one of their neighbors, has the Confederation ever had any realistic mechanisms for enacting those sorts of reforms since it became a unified state?
That is precisely the point.
The Confederation does not have mechanisms by which it could reform itself to be less crazy. This, it seems to me, is a reasonable criticism of the Confederation.
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Well, there's one I can think of, but it involves a lot of guns and blood and screaming.
It probably would be better to say it has no political mechanisms for reform. There are always more...revolutionary methods.
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It probably would be better to say it has no political mechanisms for reform. There are always more...revolutionary methods.
That's fair. For what it's worth I don't blame the Capellan people for not revolting and overthrowing the Liaos either. The Liaos have too many 'mechs, soldiers, and guns. A revolt would just get large numbers of people killed. The Capellan people are in a bad situation, which they are unable to get out of themselves.
Now, if, hypothetically, the Confederation were invaded and its government destroyed by a foreign power, well, that would be a different matter. I make no comment on which foreign powers, if any, would be appropriate. It would also be a different matter if other external political factors - such as, oh, I don't know, Star League economic sanctions, perhaps - were to come into play and force the Confederation government to reform.
The same for the Combine, of course.
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But we never got much detail on the differences in society between Candace's Compact and the rest of the Confederation. So I'm not necessarily sold on notion that Candace would have heavily reformed the Confederation during her tenure either (although I'm willing to be convinced).
The implications about the SIC were that it was basically a Cappie flavored Davion March. While I may dislike the CC, turning them into a parody of the Suns is too cruel. I would like to see a... middle ground of sorts, but I doubt it now that the cult of Sun-Tzu exists.
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The point is that servitors play active roles in the economic and social lives of their communities. This is undeniable.
As I said, simply purchasing goods and demanding a wage are not in and of themselves a true service to anyone. Commerce is by it's very nature a selfish endeavor.
Who decides what the state's responsibility is?
Whomever creates the State. It exists for their benefit.
As you have it, the state itself is able to decide what its responsibility is.
The people are the State. Ergo, I consider that a fair thing for the State to do.
Aren't you identifying 'community' with 'the state'?
Generally speaking, yes.
Servitors live and act in the interests of their local communities; though they may not act in the interests of the state.
How do they "act" in the interests of their local community? By taking up space, eating, and purchasing goods seems to be your definition of acting in the interest of the community. Let's not kid ourselves. A servitor doesn't by rice for the good of the community, he does it to fill his stomach.
Further: what is one's community? For example, didn't Pavel Ridzik or Candace Liao act in the interests of their communities when they created the Tikonov Free Republic and St. Ives Compact?
No, because they abandoned part of their community - the Greater Humanity that existed outside of their little satrapy.
They acted to spare their worlds invasion, and obtained a good deal of economic and material aid from neighbouring states as a result.
Candace was the heir to the Chancellory. It was well within her power to replace her father and negotiate that peace for all Capellans. Instead, she ran off to play kissy face with her spy boyfriend and abandoned everyone to her sister's tyranny. That's the epitome of selfishness, if you ask me.
At any rate. One's community is not the state. 'Community' is a general term for a population; 'state' refers specifically to the government.
State doesn't refer just to the government, but to the entirety of a sovereign country - a community which makes it's own decisions.
Unfortunately, that's not what the word 'state' means. Going by that definition, service to the state can include overthrowing the Capellan government itself.
As I said above, it certainly is, and yes, theoretically overthrowing the government could be considered a service to the State, such as when a soldier assassinated Kalvin Liao.
Still, it's unfair of me to define your terms for you. Tell me, then. How is a person to identify his or her community?
Read the Korvin Doctrine.
Actually, I'm not American. Not even remotely.
And oddly, I am, but that doesn't make it not a typical American trait.
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The same for the Combine, of course.
Wishful thinking, Fedrat. Even the Clans couldn't crush the pride of the Dragon's citizens.
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The people are the State. Ergo, I consider that a fair thing for the State to do.
Generally speaking, yes.
Here is where the argument falls down. You speak of the state as an entity that possesses agency, a force capable of making decisions and taking actions. The State decides what defines citizenship. The State defines who qualifies for citizenship.
By contrast, the 'people' have no capacity to do these things. As a servitor, they have no say on what defines citizenship, but more tellingly, they still have no agency in this matter once they have attained citizenship. It is hard to imagine reconciling this distinction. In the Capellan Confederation, at least, the people serve the State, but they do aren't the State.
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By contrast, the 'people' have no capacity to do these things. As a servitor, they have no say on what defines citizenship, but more tellingly, they still have no agency in this matter once they have attained citizenship.
Not true, it is generally not the Chancellor but the Citizens in the local bureaucracy who determine who is or isn't qualified for citizenship.
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As I said, simply purchasing goods and demanding a wage are not in and of themselves a true service to anyone. Commerce is by it's very nature a selfish endeavor.
Commerce - the net effect of millions of supposedly selfish actions - does constitute a benefit to the state, though. The economic welfare of the state is contributed to by every economic actor within the state, and many outside of the state. Servitors create and participate in markets, and I am quite confident that the Capellan state directly profits from the existence of markets within its area of influence, both directly, through taxes and tariffs, and indirectly.
Whomever creates the State. It exists for their benefit.
Okay. And who creates the Capellan state?
Evidently not the people who live in the area claimed by that state, for a start.
Generally speaking, yes.
I would respond here, but Gracus did it for me. He's absolutely right.
No, because they abandoned part of their community - the Greater Humanity that existed outside of their little satrapy.
By the same logic, I choose to accuse Sun-Tzu Liao of abandoning the Greater Humanity, that exists outside of his little satrapy, by abandoning the Star League.
Really, you're accusing Ridzik and Candace Liao of tribalism, here. Of putting the interests of a restricted province of humanity over humanity as a whole. But the problem is that parochial tribalism of that sort has been the modus operandi of the Capellan Confederation since day one. You yourself seem to admit this, since you've said, quite openly, that the Confederation exists only for the benefit of Capellan citizens.
State doesn't refer just to the government, but to the entirety of a sovereign country - a community which makes it's own decisions.
My understanding of the term is expressly political. The entirety of the sovereign country, in the sense you've described it, I would call the 'nation'.
As I said above, it certainly is, and yes, theoretically overthrowing the government could be considered a service to the State, such as when a soldier assassinated Kalvin Liao.
Change of figurehead does not suffice, I would say. Could it be a service to the Capellan state to completely reform the Capellan governmental system? In fact, as you've described it, could it not be a service to the Capellan state for a foreign power to completely conquer the worlds of the Confederation and reorganise them?
Read the Korvin Doctrine.
I have. The thing is, the Korvin Doctrine doesn't actually do a thing to justify the Capellan state, and indeed the Capellan use of the Korvin Doctrine is deeply hypocritical, such that it makes me wonder if the Liaos that propound the doctrine have the slightest clue what it is.
Let's recap. Korvin was not a Capellan and had no interest in the Capellan states. She felt that human interstellar civilisation was fragile and that the rise of wildly divergent new factions, philosophies, states, and orthodoxies among the stars threatened racial unity. She also believed that racial unity was desirable, whether intrinsically or simply as a pragmatic survival tool in the galaxy. As such Korvin proposed the idea of the 'Greater Humanity', and suggested that people should be on their guard to make sure that everything they do is to the benefit of the Greater Humanity. Loyalty to the Greater Humanity must supersede local tribal or factional loyalty. The implementation of this loyalty requires some pan-human political administration, which can arbitrate disputes between smaller factions and reconcile divergent values.
What the Confederation does - and this is a blatant betrayal of Korvin's principles - is to arbitrarily decide that the Confederation in general and the Chancellor in particular is the only authority capable of representing the Greater Humanity, or constituting the said pan-human political administration. There is not one iota of evidence to think that this is the case. The Confederation takes a doctrine that demands the individual transcend petty tribal loyalties and work for the good of the entire human race, and makes the doctrine demand allegiance to a petty tribal loyalty. If Korvin were still around, I expect she would be extremely pro-Star League; as the League is thus far the only political organisation to exist which even vaguely resembles the authority she wanted.
On a side note, I always wondered if Blake was influenced by Korvin. They both have philosophies that emphasise the fragility of human civilisation and the dangers to civilisation that arise from large competing factions. One could easily take the First Succession War as proof of Korvin's view.
I should also clarify that I'm not suggesting that the Korvin Doctrine is necessarily a good thing. I find the relative universalism to be admirable, but I also think that it does have certain totalitarian overtones; and even the universalism of it, while to an extent admirable, doesn't go far enough. It also seems to me to be far too willing to sacrifice the rights of the individual. The rights of the collective are important, but I would not be so blasé about abrogating individual rights.
Wishful thinking, Fedrat. Even the Clans couldn't crush the pride of the Dragon's citizens.
Where on Earth did I profess support of the Federated Suns?
In fact, I think I've made it clear that I'm criticising the Confederation and Combine on their own grounds, and to the extent that I think the Commonwealth, Suns, and League are better, I've always listed all three of them, and avoided any suggestion that the historical goals of those three states have been good.
Now, admittedly, I would not shed a tear if the Confederation, or the Combine for that matter, were destroyed by the Federated Suns, save insofar as that would imply a radical shift in the balance of power in the Sphere that might result in even more suffering. But that's hardly the point. In the interests of full disclosure I would have viewed it as a good outcome, overall, if the Combine had been crushed in the War of 3039, if there had been no Clan Invasion, and if the Federated Commonwealth had unified the Inner Sphere; but sadly that did not happen.
Incidentally, I was pretty sure that the Clans were winning, and would have effectively destroyed the Combine if Wolf's Dragoons and the Kell Hounds hadn't been sent - by the FedCom, curiously enough - to help.
Not true, it is generally not the Chancellor but the Citizens in the local bureaucracy who determine who is or isn't qualified for citizenship.
You know, the Chancellor does have the power to arbitrarily strip citizenship from anyone, at any time.
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Commerce - the net effect of millions of supposedly selfish actions - does constitute a benefit to the state, though. The economic welfare of the state is contributed to by every economic actor within the state, and many outside of the state. Servitors create and participate in markets, and I am quite confident that the Capellan state directly profits from the existence of markets within its area of influence, both directly, through taxes and tariffs, and indirectly.
The State already owns everything within itself, so the only way a servitor could benefit the State through an economic transaction was if they could export something. Since I doubt very many of them have the means to ship internationally, there's not much to that.
Okay. And who creates the Capellan state?
The Capellan people of 2366.
By the same logic, I choose to accuse Sun-Tzu Liao of abandoning the Greater Humanity, that exists outside of his little satrapy, by abandoning the Star League.
The Second Star League was a sham organization which did not represent a true united Inner Sphere but an attempt by the separate Houses to manipulate each other for their own selfish ends. His Celestial Wisdom acted to protect the Capellan people from that manipulation. So did the Princess Regent and the Archon. It was probably a good thing, since if he didn't, we'd have been stuck in a religious war against the Clans not of our making.
Really, you're accusing Ridzik and Candace Liao of tribalism, here. Of putting the interests of a restricted province of humanity over humanity as a whole.
No, I'm accusing them of being selfish bastards who put the interests of themselves personally ahead of everybody else.
But the problem is that parochial tribalism of that sort has been the modus operandi of the Capellan Confederation since day one. You yourself seem to admit this, since you've said, quite openly, that the Confederation exists only for the benefit of Capellan citizens.
The Confederation cannot be mother and father to every being in the galaxy, nor will the Capellan Confederation make war on her neighbors to make it so. The Confederation willingly embraces all those who come to her and participate in her.
My understanding of the term is expressly political. The entirety of the sovereign country, in the sense you've described it, I would call the 'nation'.
Then I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully request you check out a dictionary. A nation refers to a specific related group of people, typically of a shared ethnicity. It has absolutely nothing to do with government, although it is often erroneously used as a synonym for state.
Change of figurehead does not suffice, I would say.
A personal opinion which ignores the importance of the Chancellor.
Could it be a service to the Capellan state to completely reform the Capellan governmental system?
If necessary, yes.
In fact, as you've described it, could it not be a service to the Capellan state for a foreign power to completely conquer the worlds of the Confederation and reorganise them?
No, because that would entail destroying the State, that is to say, the association of the Capellan people formed in 2366.
What the Confederation does - and this is a blatant betrayal of Korvin's principles - is to arbitrarily decide that the Confederation in general and the Chancellor in particular is the only authority capable of representing the Greater Humanity, or constituting the said pan-human political administration.
The Confederation does not insist that the Chancellor and Confederation are the only government that all humanity must accept. The Capellan Confederation accepted the Camerons as First Lord of the Star League, and offered to accept Paul Davion if he was willing to prove himself a man of sufficient moral character as to lay down his personal greed for the sake of peace. The Confederation and House Liao do, however, consider it their solemn duty to protect the rights, priveleges and property of the Citizens of the Confederation from any and all possible threats, a situation which many of these Citizens find to be an ideal which might work for the purposes of uniting humanity. What form the future holds, we do not know. :)
If Korvin were still around, I expect she would be extremely pro-Star League
The Confederation is very pro-Star League, if we are discussing a true and functioning League, and not just a way to get your neighbors to settle your border conflicts.
You know, the Chancellor does have the power to arbitrarily strip citizenship from anyone, at any time.
But generally does not do so, and when he does, it is in the interest of expediting a rather open and shut judicial matter. Chancellors that abuse their authority tend to find themselves quite dead.
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MadCap---you put the fun in fundamentalist. [notworthy]
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This thread is a worse defeat for Capellans than the Fourth War; that, at least, they can come back from. There's no coming back from vomiting all over themselves while they're utterly destroyed in debate by someone with less than a hundred posts. I suppose it's also a damning indictment of Federated Suns fans, since they could never articulate what Mecha-Anchovy has, without rancor, made painfully obvious to even a child. It's like watching an amputee box Mike Tyson.
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Seconded
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(Erm, just in case anyone missed it: is there any way to make the animated emoticons go away? I am the sort of person who automatically snaps to look at motion in my peripheral vision and I find them rather distracting.)
The State already owns everything within itself, so the only way a servitor could benefit the State through an economic transaction was if they could export something. Since I doubt very many of them have the means to ship internationally, there's not much to that.
And yet the Confederation still bothers to tax its people. It is a convenient point of political rhetoric to say the state owns everything within its borders. De facto, there are state funds, as distinct from privately owned wealth.
The Capellan people of 2366.
I seem to recall Franco Liao blackmailing the Capellan states into acquiescing to his leadership, actually.
Regardless, even supposing that this diverse group of people came together in 2366 to form a state: why is that binding? Are we to submit to a dictatorship of the past?
Let's recap. You suggested that the state exists for the benefit of the people who created it. You also suggest that the people who created the Capellan Confederation were the Capellan people, of 2366. (Let us leave aside that I think this is a clear misrepresentation of history.) So: the Confederation exists for the benefit of the people of the Capellan worlds in 2366.
I cannot help but notice that all the Capellan people of 2366 are dead.
Who, precisely, does the Capellan state exist to benefit today?
The Second Star League was a sham organization which did not represent a true united Inner Sphere but an attempt by the separate Houses to manipulate each other for their own selfish ends. His Celestial Wisdom acted to protect the Capellan people from that manipulation. So did the Princess Regent and the Archon.
That does not seem to me to be what the second Star League was created for. I believe that it was explicitly a restoration of the original Star League. (I could be wrong on this. I don't have the relevant novel on hand.)
Incidentally, yes, I do blame the Archon and the Princess-Regent for its downfall as well. I think they did the wrong thing. It is somewhat understandable in their case, given the economic burdens of war; but understandable does not mean excusable.
It was probably a good thing, since if he didn't, we'd have been stuck in a religious war against the Clans not of our making.
Not really relevant to the larger debate, but I would be much happier with the Word of Blake and the Clans annihilating each other in nuclear fire than I am with the Jihad.
(On an amusing side note, this is what happened in the BT RP I mentioned I was in before. I kept the Suns in the Star League and thus ensured its continuation, though the Lyrans and Capellans still pulled out. The FWL collapsed into civil war a bit later, Sun-Tzu arbitrated a cease-fire and re-entered the League, along with smaller post-FWL states. These minor states got a single vote each, while the much larger Combine and Suns took three each, owing to their larger populations. Otherwise the small FWL states, as they rejoined, would be able to make an FWL voting bloc and overpower the rest of the League. The Word of Blake talked Peter Steiner-Davion into rejoining the League and used his help to manage to get an IS coalition against the Clans through the council. Bulldog II throws the Jade Falcons and Wolves out of the Inner Sphere - while the Ghost Bears have already merged with Rasalhague, to no one's particular pleasure - and a Word of Blake armada heads off, alone, into Clanspace. No message is ever received back from them, but several years later an Explorer Corps vessel confirms Word of Blake wreckage in the Pentagon, and five planets liberally blasted with nuclear firepower and seeded with chemical and biological weapons. I was relatively pleased with the ending. It was nice and dramatic.)
Anyway. I would not say I am a supporter of the Word of Blake, though I do honestly think that the Jihad isn't what they intended. The Word of Blake would have preferred to lead an Inner Sphere coalition against the Clans, and for what it's worth, I think that would have been much better, for everyone. (Except the Clans, of course.) I'm actually rather ambivalent about the Word of Blake. They are not as bad as they are accused of being; though that is hardly to say that they're nice guys and I support them.
Still. It's BattleTech. Something horrible always has to happen. Both the Clan Invasion and the Jihad occurred at precisely the right times to stop any conclusive shifts to the status quo.
No, I'm accusing them of being selfish bastards who put the interests of themselves personally ahead of everybody else.
You know, I think the people of Tikonov or St. Ives had their interests better served by avoiding invasion.
The Confederation cannot be mother and father to every being in the galaxy, nor will the Capellan Confederation make war on her neighbors to make it so. The Confederation willingly embraces all those who come to her and participate in her.
And as such the Confederation is most emphatically not the Greater Humanity that Korvin was interested in, and attempts to apply the Korvin Doctrine to the cause of Capellan nationalism are, to be frank, hopelessly hypocritical.
Then I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully request you check out a dictionary. A nation refers to a specific related group of people, typically of a shared ethnicity. It has absolutely nothing to do with government, although it is often erroneously used as a synonym for state.
I use the word 'nation' to refer to a group of people of common identity. It is not the same as a state - hence why we use the term 'nation-state' - nor does it require any formal governmental structure.
Regardless, quibbling over definitions does us little good. To put it quite simply, then: I do not identify the aggregate of people within the borders of the Capellan Confederation with the governmental apparatus of that Confederation. I bear no grudge against those people, but I do think the governmental apparatus of the Confederation is structured in an immensely unjust and oppressive way. I think that it would be to the overall benefit of the people inside the Confederation's borders if the Confederation's government was radically reformed or destroyed.
No, because that would entail destroying the State, that is to say, the association of the Capellan people formed in 2366.
Could it be a service to the people who live within the borders of the political entity 'the Capellan Confederation' to destroy the government of the Capellan Confederation, and institute some other government in its place?
The Confederation does not insist that the Chancellor and Confederation are the only government that all humanity must accept. The Capellan Confederation accepted the Camerons as First Lord of the Star League, and offered to accept Paul Davion if he was willing to prove himself a man of sufficient moral character as to lay down his personal greed for the sake of peace. The Confederation and House Liao do, however, consider it their solemn duty to protect the rights, priveleges and property of the Citizens of the Confederation from any and all possible threats, a situation which many of these Citizens find to be an ideal which might work for the purposes of uniting humanity.
Okay. And what on Earth does that have to do with the Korvin Doctrine?
The only way I can see it possibly applying is if you think that the Confederation government would be an ideal governing authority for the entirety of the Greater Humanity, i.e. the whole human race. But you just said explicitly that you don't think all humanity must accept that government.
Where does the Korvin Doctrine even apply? As far as I can see, it simply... doesn't. At all.
This thread is a worse defeat for Capellans than the Fourth War; that, at least, they can come back from. There's no coming back from vomiting all over themselves while they're utterly destroyed in debate by someone with less than a hundred posts. I suppose it's also a damning indictment of Federated Suns fans, since they could never articulate what Mecha-Anchovy has, without rancor, made painfully obvious to even a child. It's like watching an amputee box Mike Tyson.
Thank you! :)
It's always nice to know that I'm not just ranting for my own amusement, but other people find my incoherent mumblings to be interesting.
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This thread is a worse defeat for Capellans than the Fourth War; that, at least, they can come back from. There's no coming back from vomiting all over themselves while they're utterly destroyed in debate by someone with less than a hundred posts. I suppose it's also a damning indictment of Federated Suns fans, since they could never articulate what Mecha-Anchovy has, without rancor, made painfully obvious to even a child. It's like watching an amputee box Mike Tyson.
Let it never be said the public beating has gone out of fashion.
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There's no coming back from vomiting all over themselves ...
What is there to come back from? Both Mecha and MadCap have used canon sources to support their arguments. There really isn't any right or wrong here. It's largely left up to how we, individually, interprete what's written in-game for the sake of our own games.
... while they're utterly destroyed in debate by someone with less than a hundred posts.
Why should post-counts matter in such discussions?
I suppose it's also a damning indictment of Federated Suns fans, since they could never articulate what Mecha-Anchovy has, without rancor, made painfully obvious to even a child.
I've read better.
Most notably, Gracus.
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*shrug* Honestly? I'm still going on about this because I don't when to stop, and I'm not sure I'd describe myself as without rancour.
Still, what would the internet be without long and pointless debates about fictional politics? It's silly, but I'm enjoying myself, and I hope everyone else is too.
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Hell, this is the most fun I've had with a thread on the Successor States boards in months. I say keep it up for another ten pages.
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(Erm, just in case anyone missed it: is there any way to make the animated emoticons go away? I am the sort of person who automatically snaps to look at motion in my peripheral vision and I find them rather distracting.)
I did answer you that I didn't think there was.
And yet the Confederation still bothers to tax its people. It is a convenient point of political rhetoric to say the state owns everything within its borders. De facto, there are state funds, as distinct from privately owned wealth.
This is because the Confederation entrusts much of it's wealth to it's Citizenry as it exists for their benefit. This is similar to the way the money of an individual may be invested in a bank. The reality is that you do not have all your money on you at all times, but you may withdraw it at any time from the bank. Similarly, the Confederation, as the collective owner of all wealth within the Confederation, may take whatever assets are necessary for the continued function and survival of the State. The only way this pool grows is through external trade, not internal transaction.
I seem to recall Franco Liao blackmailing the Capellan states into acquiescing to his leadership, actually.
I seem to recall Franco Liao being elected by popular acclaim after his wife threatened to kill him, actually. We Capellans work in mysterious ways. ;)
Who, precisely, does the Capellan state exist to benefit today?
It's Citizens, an unbroken chain of participation from 2366 to the present.
That does not seem to me to be what the second Star League was created for. I believe that it was explicitly a restoration of the original Star League. (I could be wrong on this. I don't have the relevant novel on hand.)
The original Star League didn't have a rotating First Lordship, and was far more than a mere military alliance like the second Star League was. If Katrina hadn't framed it as a means to defeat the Clans, no one would have gone for it.
You know, I think the people of Tikonov or St. Ives had their interests better served by avoiding invasion.
Ha! Both individuals had in their power to end the war for all the Capellan people, and both refused to act. The appearance of avoiding war was illusory, because in doing what they did, they only guaranteed war for those people in the future. If both of them decided to defect, they should have done their people a huge favor and just left them out of it.
And as such the Confederation is most emphatically not the Greater Humanity that Korvin was interested in, and attempts to apply the Korvin Doctrine to the cause of Capellan nationalism are, to be frank, hopelessly hypocritical.
Not at all. Korvin never advanced the idea of forcing everyone into one state through conquest. Korvin-DuVall encouraged mankind to make common cause with itself of its own volition. All of humanity does not find one government overnight, or even in a few brief years. The Korvin Doctrine is an ideal, not a reality achieved.
I think that it would be to the overall benefit of the people inside the Confederation's borders if the Confederation's government was radically reformed or destroyed.
Chancellor Liao has proven very open to the suggestion of improvements to the Confederation. The destruction of the Confederation, however, serves no one's interests save maybe House Davion. The sheer death toll alone would not be worth whatever could be achieved for the Capellan people. That said, I can't see what would be to be gained. I think there is room for improvement in the Confederation, but I am generally quite pleased with it.
Could it be a service to the people who live within the borders of the political entity 'the Capellan Confederation' to destroy the government of the Capellan Confederation, and institute some other government in its place?
Why must this involve destruction? Why can't a Chancellor enact the changes you desire?
The only way I can see it possibly applying is if you think that the Confederation government would be an ideal governing authority for the entirety of the Greater Humanity, i.e. the whole human race. But you just said explicitly that you don't think all humanity must accept that government.
Simply because we feel it a good idea doesn't mean we should force it on everyone else! The Confederation is not interested in a war of idealism to force our way of life on others. We simply advance what we think is the best method possible.
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Hell, this is the most fun I've had with a thread on the Successor States boards in months. I say keep it up for another ten pages.
I agree.
These boards have become noticeably boring here of late, beginning with a period before the last "crash".
It's good to see a little fervor here again.
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Hell, this is the most fun I've had with a thread on the Successor States boards in months. I say keep it up for another ten pages.
+1
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Hell, this is the most fun I've had with a thread on the Successor States boards in months. I say keep it up for another ten pages.
this is 100% the truth. though i haven't contributed a single thing to thread (mostly cause i just don't know nearly as much as the IS fans that usually contribute here) i've kept up with this since the beginning (the cappies are one of my primary faction for game play cause phyr's hussars rule all) and have found the debate fascinating, so yeah, i say keep it going
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Hell, this is the most fun I've had with a thread on the Successor States boards in months. I say keep it up for another ten pages.
I'll do my best! I agree that it's a shame the spirit of debate has long cooled here on Successor States. Its much more fun when we all have a great intellectual exchange of ideas!
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I did answer you that I didn't think there was.
Just wanted to be sure no one else had an answer. ;)
This is because the Confederation entrusts much of it's wealth to it's Citizenry as it exists for their benefit. This is similar to the way the money of an individual may be invested in a bank. The reality is that you do not have all your money on you at all times, but you may withdraw it at any time from the bank. Similarly, the Confederation, as the collective owner of all wealth within the Confederation, may take whatever assets are necessary for the continued function and survival of the State. The only way this pool grows is through external trade, not internal transaction.
I admit I am no economist; but it seems to me that the net wealth of a polity can increase through the efforts of people in that polity: by exploring and colonising new worlds, acquiring new resources, engaging in labour to transform those resources into more valuable items, and so on. The Confederation's wealth pool, so to speak, can and does grow without the direct intervention of other states.
It's Citizens, an unbroken chain of participation from 2366 to the present.
Very well. Let me try to narrow this down:
The Confederation is a social convention created by a specific pool of individuals - henceforth 'citizens' - who then set standards of entry for other citizens. These citizens created a governmental apparatus, to administer and organised their shared property, and placed the Liao family at the head of this apparatus. They further claimed ownership of a certain finite set of worlds. All persons born on these worlds or wishing to immigrate to those worlds are owed nothing by the Confederation or the citizen body inherently; but they are free to attempt to meet the standards of entry, and become citizens themselves. Becoming a citizen creates a two-way bond between the individual and the Confederation government: each has duties to the other. In general terms, the new citizen must work on behalf of the Confederation and contribute to it as a community; while the Confederation must provide certain essential services to the citizen and guarantee the citizen's safety.
Would you say that's a fair description of your position?
The original Star League didn't have a rotating First Lordship, and was far more than a mere military alliance like the second Star League was. If Katrina hadn't framed it as a means to defeat the Clans, no one would have gone for it.
No one would dispute that the Clans were the catalyst of the Star League's rebirth. (Always liked that little piece of dramatic irony, myself. ;) ) As for the First Lordship... well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the First Lordship was merely held by the Cameron family traditionally, and there was in fact no legal requirement. I understood that in theory any of the house lords could be elected. After all, Richard Cameron expressed the wish that John Davion succeed him, if necessary (albeit to Minoru Kurita; no one accused Richard Cameron of being smart), which would suggest that a non-Cameron could hold the position.
As for the reformed Star League, again, my understanding was that the voting members of the Star League council elected the First Lord. The difference between it and the old Star League, I thought, was that in the old League the First Lord position was held for life, while the reformed League introduced fixed terms.
In any case. I don't see why a reform of the procedure for selecting the First Lord should somehow delegitimise the organisation.
Ha! Both individuals had in their power to end the war for all the Capellan people, and both refused to act.
...going to have to remind me, I'm afraid. I don't see how Ridzik or Candace had the power to stop the Fourth Succession War. They could have chosen to be totally loyal to the Chancellor, but that would hardly have stopped the invading force in its tracks.
Not at all. Korvin never advanced the idea of forcing everyone into one state through conquest. Korvin-DuVall encouraged mankind to make common cause with itself of its own volition. All of humanity does not find one government overnight, or even in a few brief years. The Korvin Doctrine is an ideal, not a reality achieved.
I don't believe I implied that Korvin advocated the formation of one super-state through conquest. But I did imply, as you acknowledge, that Korvin wanted the human race to make common cause and to cooperate, without being held back by loyalty to smaller, conflicting factions.
I would guess that if Korvin was around now, she would be utterly disgusted by all five successor states. She would be an advocate of the Star League and would harshly criticise excessive loyalty to any individual successor state. For that reason, I think, she would be particularly offended by the Confederation, for its intense nationalistic fervour, and further for what she would see as its mis-use of her ideas.
Chancellor Liao has proven very open to the suggestion of improvements to the Confederation.
I am not so interested in how moral or helpful the current Chancellor is. There are, for what it's worth, Chancellors that I think have been excellent leaders and who have had some quite good ideas. Aleisha Liao, I suppose, is the prime example of a 'good Liao'. My beef is with the political structure of the Confederation, not with the person who sits on its throne.
...though I admit to not being a fan of Sun-Tzu.
(In character, that is. Out of character, I'm glad that Sun-Tzu exists, I think he's a slimy little snake, but he makes the setting more interesting and creates richer conflicts. To put it briefly: stories are much better when the villain is smart and competent. I have bigger complaints with incompetent villains - Myndo Waterly springs to mind - but arguments about those are not as fun.)
The destruction of the Confederation, however, serves no one's interests save maybe House Davion.
House Marik might be happy as well. ;)
The sheer death toll alone would not be worth whatever could be achieved for the Capellan people.
I did not specify military destruction. The Confederation government can be destroyed through means other than direct invasion, though admittedly at present invasion seems the most feasible means.
(Side note again: back when Free Capella was around, I quite liked them as a movement for social change inside the Confederation. Once they got over the whole quest to put Tormano on the throne... well, let's just say that I liked seeing dissenting voices in the Confederation. It made the Confederation a more complex, multivocal place, to have Capellan patriots who nonetheless said 'we are living in a repressive, totalitarian state, and we want to change it'. I realise that's not a great description of what Free Capella actually was; but it's the sort of thing I would have liked to see. Other states have their Black Dragon Societies and their Azami and their Cincinnatuses and Free Skyes and CDPs and Filtvelts: why not the Confederation? And: yes, with such a faction there should always be that 'freedom fighters or terrorists?' ambiguity.)
Why must this involve destruction? Why can't a Chancellor enact the changes you desire?
If a Chancellor did so, I would be very happy. If that happened, I would cease to have any complaints with the Confederation. It is not a priori impossible for a Chancellor to do that, so I'm not even ruling out the possibility.
However... I really don't think it's going to happen. History speaks rather loudly here. I think it sufficiently unlikely that, by sheer chance, a Chancellor will decide of his or her own free will to reform the Confederation that we should be willing to consider other means. We are past the point where waiting for a Capellan perestroika is reasonable.
Simply because we feel it a good idea doesn't mean we should force it on everyone else! The Confederation is not interested in a war of idealism to force our way of life on others. We simply advance what we think is the best method possible.
Two thoughts, then.
Firstly: don't you force that way of life on your own people? Don't you force that way of life on servitors, for instance, and make it exceedingly difficult for servitors to earn the money needed to immigrate to another state? (In which regard it does not help that servitors could be legally enslaved - and full credit to Sun-Tzu for ending that - and, for that matter, cannot legally own property.)
Secondly: what of worlds conquered by the Confederation? While over the Succession Wars that is admittedly a pretty short list, consider, for example, the world of Chesterton. It has been part of the Federated Suns since the 24th century, though the Confederation claims an ancestral right to it through the Chesterton Trade Union. Nonetheless: we are talking about people who have never been part of the Confederation, and whose descendants for hundreds of generations have never been part of the Confederation. And yet: does not the Confederation wage war to conquer Chesterton, and to force its way of life upon the people of that world? I am baffled how you can claim with a straight force that the Confederation does not wish to force its way of life on others when it is transparently the case that the Confederation wishes to conquer a large number of non-Capellan worlds and restructure their societies.
It's good to see a little fervor here again.
In that case, then, I'm glad to have brought a little fresh blood into the discussion! :)
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I admit I am no economist; but it seems to me that the net wealth of a polity can increase through the efforts of people in that polity: by exploring and colonising new worlds, acquiring new resources, engaging in labour to transform those resources into more valuable items, and so on. The Confederation's wealth pool, so to speak, can and does grow without the direct intervention of other states.
Servitors are in no position to explore new worlds, prospect for new resources, or develop new refining processes, but if they somehow did, I am certain that donating their findings to the Confederation would guarantee them Citizenship.
Very well. Let me try to narrow this down:
The Confederation is a social convention created by a specific pool of individuals - henceforth 'citizens' - who then set standards of entry for other citizens. These citizens created a governmental apparatus, to administer and organised their shared property, and placed the Liao family at the head of this apparatus. They further claimed ownership of a certain finite set of worlds. All persons born on these worlds or wishing to immigrate to those worlds are owed nothing by the Confederation or the citizen body inherently; but they are free to attempt to meet the standards of entry, and become citizens themselves. Becoming a citizen creates a two-way bond between the individual and the Confederation government: each has duties to the other. In general terms, the new citizen must work on behalf of the Confederation and contribute to it as a community; while the Confederation must provide certain essential services to the citizen and guarantee the citizen's safety.
Would you say that's a fair description of your position?
Sounds like you are getting the gist of it, my friend. :)
In any case. I don't see why a reform of the procedure for selecting the First Lord should somehow delegitimise the organisation.
It is not the nature by which leadership is selected so much as whether or not the body truly acts in the interests of the Greater Humanity. The Second Star League was created for the purpose of bolstering the political position of Katrina Steiner-Davion, and served no purpose beyond the defeat of the Clan threat and to allow whomever was in charge to manipulate the remaining members into shoring up their contentious border areas for them. The original Star League was a body with a purpose beyond mere military alliance and which acted in the interest of the Inner Sphere as a whole. The two could not be more different. The second Star League was a sham. A pretty sham, but a sham.
...going to have to remind me, I'm afraid. I don't see how Ridzik or Candace had the power to stop the Fourth Succession War. They could have chosen to be totally loyal to the Chancellor, but that would hardly have stopped the invading force in its tracks.
Pavel Ridzik was Senior Colonel of the CCAF and had the direct loyalty of a large number of the Confederation's frontline regiments. Candace Liao was heir apparent to the Celestial Throne and a member of the Prefectorate. Either or both together would have had the means to assassinate or otherwise remove Maximillian from power and sue for peace on behalf of the entire Confederation. Neither choose to do so, instead leaving the people of the Confederation in the hands of a gibbering Maximillian and a violent sociopath Romano. Why? Because it was far easier to negotiate for their own personal safety and property than to actually act in the interest of the entire Capellan people.
I would guess that if Korvin was around now, she would be utterly disgusted by all five successor states. She would be an advocate of the Star League and would harshly criticise excessive loyalty to any individual successor state. For that reason, I think, she would be particularly offended by the Confederation, for its intense nationalistic fervour, and further for what she would see as its mis-use of her ideas.
I disagree. While I believe that Ms. Korvin DuVall would have been a strong proponent of the Star League, I think she would ultimately understand and respect the Confederation's non-expansionist foreign policy and our efforts to merely defend and secure our borders, not to mention appreciate the way our society cultivates a sense of communal loyalty.
My beef is with the political structure of the Confederation, not with the person who sits on its throne.
I'd argue that there are no good or bad systems of government, only good and bad people involved in the business of government.
House Marik might be happy as well. ;)
They might be happy, but it ultimately wouldn't serve their interests, as they'd now be bordering the fanatically expansionist Federated Suns, an entity with far more military might to bring to bare on them than we ever have.
Two thoughts, then.
Firstly: don't you force that way of life on your own people? Don't you force that way of life on servitors, for instance, and make it exceedingly difficult for servitors to earn the money needed to immigrate to another state? (In which regard it does not help that servitors could be legally enslaved - and full credit to Sun-Tzu for ending that - and, for that matter, cannot legally own property.)
No, servitors elect to not participate in the Capellan state, either by failing to contribute, or by participating in criminal behavior. The status of a Capellan, be he Citizen or servitor, is voluntary on the part of the individual in question. The individual alone is responsible for his station in life.
Secondly: what of worlds conquered by the Confederation? While over the Succession Wars that is admittedly a pretty short list, consider, for example, the world of Chesterton. It has been part of the Federated Suns since the 24th century, though the Confederation claims an ancestral right to it through the Chesterton Trade Union. Nonetheless: we are talking about people who have never been part of the Confederation, and whose descendants for hundreds of generations have never been part of the Confederation. And yet: does not the Confederation wage war to conquer Chesterton, and to force its way of life upon the people of that world? I am baffled how you can claim with a straight force that the Confederation does not wish to force its way of life on others when it is transparently the case that the Confederation wishes to conquer a large number of non-Capellan worlds and restructure their societies.
The Confederation fights to restore the world of Chesterton to Capellan ownership, as it is the collective property of the Capellan people as embodied in the State. While I hope with all my heart that the people of Chesterton would see the wisdom and benefit of participating in the Capellan State, that is a personal choice for them to make, and ultimately irrelevent to our cause. If an inhabitant of Chesterton so vehemently disagrees with the nature of Capellan society, I entreat them to immigrate to a traditionally Federated Suns world like Broken Wheel, and return to the people of the Confederation that which was wrongfully taken from them.
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Servitors are in no position to explore new worlds, prospect for new resources, or develop new refining processes, but if they somehow did, I am certain that donating their findings to the Confederation would guarantee them Citizenship.
Doesn't a servitor, through his or her labour, engage in wealth creation? A servitor who takes a natural resource and makes it into something of greater value is creating wealth. I suppose the most basic example would be taking a piece of wood from a tree and carving it into something useful.
Sounds like you are getting the gist of it, my friend. :)
Okay.
If that was actually a perfect description of the way things work in the Confederation, I would not have such a problem with it. But ideal and reality rarely match up. (And to be fair, it applies to other states: just as when the Federated Suns talks about freedom and yet large groups of people are kept in wage-slavery, e.g. the Redondo strike mentioned on p. 138 of HB:HD.)
Let me try to narrow down some of my objections then.
Firstly: the citizenship criteria are expressly political in nature. To become a citizen, and be entitled to even the most basic of government services, one is required to demonstrate political orthodoxy. The Capellan education system is similarly designed to create political orthodoxy; and to generalise, the entire Capellan governmental system, including the citizenship system, is designed to teach the people born in the Confederation to be fanatically loyal to a particular ideology. By making basic civil rights contingent on political orthodoxy, this moves beyond simply teaching certain values (as every state does); it actively works to suppress dissent from those values and prevent public debate.
Secondly: the political ideology in question is one of obvious benefit to the current ruling class of the Confederation, and to the Liao family in particular. While it is unsurprising that the maintenance of a political status quo should benefit the people at the top of that status quo (for similarly the Mariks, Steiners, and Davions benefit from being at the top), it encourages one to be skeptical about the selflessness of the Liao family. The Capellan system of government, it seems to me, lacks any real checks or balances that might prevent Liaoist tyranny (cf. Parliament and the Mariks, the Estates General and the Steiners).
Thirdly: the citizenship criteria actually turn out to be coercively hostile. While a person has the choice to try for citizenship or not, this is not a fair or meaningful choice. A person born on a Capellan world may either 1) try to internalise the Capellan ideology and become a citizen or 2) be a servitor, and thus be economically and socially disadvantaged for one's entire life and unable to leave the Confederation. In this way it is only possible for a person born in the Capellan Confederation to live a full and rich life is to adhere to the state ideology; this suppresses possibility for dissent or debate. Essentially, Capellan citizenship is Hobson's Choice. (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice), though I'm sure you're familiar with it.)
Fourthly: this system is justified in terms of servitors' non-participation in the Capellan state; that is to say, the community of the citizen body. However, as both Liao sourcebooks tell us, the servitor caste constitutes between 20-30% of the population of the Confederation worlds. Both books note the important role of the servitors in the Confederation economy. ('Servitors are used for the day-to-day, mundane tasks that other Capellans have no desire to deal with.' p. 111 HLSB. 'Servitors perform society's mundane tasks, those that are necessary but that other Capellans are unwilling or disinclined to do.' p. 116 HB:HL.) In this sense servitors do actively participate in the economic and social life of the communities of the Capellan worlds, and the attempted dismissal of them as non-participants can't work.
Fifthly: local societies and governments are structured according to the overarching Capellan ideology, with little right to modify or reform it as need. Unlike both the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns, where the populations of individual planets have the right to constitute planetary governments as they see fit, within certain broad criteria (I believe the Lyrans have something similar; but I'm less sure with them), the ideal structure of a Capellan planetary government is dictated by the central government of the Confederation.
In short, the objection is: Capellan citizenship is a coercive tool designed to indoctrinate individuals with fanatical loyalty to the Capellan government, systematically disenfranchising and discriminating against a large proportion of the population, for the benefit of a self-serving elite.
Please note that while I think that the three 'liberal' states of the Inner Sphere - the Free Worlds League, Federated Suns, and Lyran Commonwealth - hold several major advantages over the Confederation, I do not consider them immune to criticism. I freely grant that their interstellar governments are also inequitable, are tied up with significant social injustices, and are run for the benefit of local elites. I do think that in several important respects, some of which are noted above, they are less bad than the Confederation; but that is all. For this discussion, at any rate, I would rather focus entirely on the Confederation.
Of course, I should also have a proposed solution. Political criticisms need to be allied to proposals for political reform. As bad as any particular government might be, it is still an unfortunate truth that we need to have a government. How would I improve the Capellan Confederation? Firstly, I would reform the education system, and alter the excessive focus on political orthodoxy. I would then either make citizenship universal, or remove the requirement of political orthodoxy. (So for example citizenship would still be contingent on some volunteer work to prove one will contribute to the community; but there would be no political requirement; so, participation in, say, any reputable charity organisation would suffice.) Then I would moderate the power of the Chancellor and hand back a significant amount of political power to the Prefectorate and the House of Scions. (On a side note, Aleisha Liao actually did this: one reason I think she was one of the better Chancellors. Sun-Tzu, I believe, also gave the House of Scions more power, so I approve of him there.) I would introduce provisions for greater diversity in planetary government. Lastly, I would move to allow more freedom for large private organisations to exist. Sun-Tzu has actually done more to allow Capellan corporations some freedom. (Though do not misread me as wanting to give corporations too much power! They can be just as bad as governments, and worse besides.) More importantly, this would allow private political and religious organisations to exist on a much larger scale than they do currently.
Overall, I don't think these are too radical reforms, and you will notice that none of them require the Confederation to cease to be a functioning polity. It means enlarging the citizen body and introducing fairer citizenship criteria, with no mandatory political indoctrination, reducing the power of the Liao family and increasing the power of the appropriate counter-balancing organisatoins, and then simply allowing a greater degree of free association and organisation among the people. That's it.
And credit where it's due: Sun-Tzu ended servitor slavery, he allowed the House of Scions more influence, and he allowed more corporate autonomy and finally removed the Liaoist doctrine. Sun-Tzu has in many regards been good for the Confederation. To be fair, improving on Romano and Maximillian is not exactly hard, but still: kudos to him. This does nothing to negate my objections to the citizenship system, of course; and the rapidly growing cult of personality around Sun-Tzu and the implicit racism of the Xin Sheng doctrine provide other grounds on which I think he can be strongly criticised.
It is not the nature by which leadership is selected so much as whether or not the body truly acts in the interests of the Greater Humanity. The Second Star League was created for the purpose of bolstering the political position of Katrina Steiner-Davion, and served no purpose beyond the defeat of the Clan threat and to allow whomever was in charge to manipulate the remaining members into shoring up their contentious border areas for them.
...it suddenly occurs to me to wonder whether Korvin would have counted the Clans as part of the Greater Humanity or not. The Clans are human, even if many of their people are genetically modified.
An interesting question. Do the Clans need to be accounted for?
Anyway. You'll forgive me if I leave off the argument about the Star League here. I think we both agree that Korvin would have supported the idea of the Star League - certainly the first one, at any rate - and that's enough. I'm not sure what this argument about the legitimacy of the reformed Star League is in aid of. We're talking about the Confederation, aren't we?
Pavel Ridzik was Senior Colonel of the CCAF and had the direct loyalty of a large number of the Confederation's frontline regiments. Candace Liao was heir apparent to the Celestial Throne and a member of the Prefectorate. Either or both together would have had the means to assassinate or otherwise remove Maximillian from power and sue for peace on behalf of the entire Confederation. Neither choose to do so, instead leaving the people of the Confederation in the hands of a gibbering Maximillian and a violent sociopath Romano. Why? Because it was far easier to negotiate for their own personal safety and property than to actually act in the interest of the entire Capellan people.
Very well: I'll accept that. Candace could have removed Maximillian from power, assumed the Chancellorship, and led the Confederation towards a greater peace. (Ridzik not so much; his authority to act on behalf of the Confederation, as a non-Liao, is more in question.) I do not condemn her as you do, but I'll grant the possibility.
Do you really think that Hanse Davion would have ceased the invasion in that case, though? It is entirely possible he might have, but I suspect that with Candace on the throne you would see either a three way FedCom-Confederation alliance; or the Confederation would effectively become a FedCom satellite.
While I would be happy to see a FedCom-Confederation alliance - a ConFedCom, if you will - I rather suspect that you would disagree. Romano, for all her insanity, did at least preserve the Confederation as an independent state and set the stage for Sun-Tzu's revitalisation of the state.
I'd argue that there are no good or bad systems of government, only good and bad people involved in the business of government.
I would have to disagree there. Certainly I think there's some relativity in government. Governments are rated as good or bad based on how well they serve the interests and guarantee the rights of their people. As such whether a particular form of government is good or bad is dependent on a huge number of cultural and technological factors. There is no governmental structure that is right in all circumstances. Nonetheless, I do think that for a given set of circumstances, there can be better systems of government than others.
Surely this is non-controversial? Wouldn't you say that Sun-Tzu's reforms to the Confederation government had the overall effect of improving that government? A government isn't just a collection of people, good or bad: it's a complex set of systems through which those people interact.
They might be happy, but it ultimately wouldn't serve their interests, as they'd now be bordering the fanatically expansionist Federated Suns, an entity with far more military might to bring to bare on them than we ever have.
Actually, I'm trying to think right now of how aggressive House Davion is, historically, relative to the other great houses. I would use the phrase 'fanatically expansionist' to describe House Kurita, certainly, but the Davions? Prior to Alexander Davion and the Star League, the Federated Suns was actually relatively isolationist. Looking at the Succession Wars; well, how do you define aggression? The Federated Suns is actually usually not the state to make the initial declaration of war or military strike. Off the top of my head - I haven't gone and done the work here yet - it seems to me that you could make a case for House Steiner being more expansionist and aggressive than House Davion. (It is obviously irrelevant that House Davion has been considerably more militarily successful than House Steiner. An expansionist agenda does not imply military competence.)
No, servitors elect to not participate in the Capellan state, either by failing to contribute, or by participating in criminal behavior. The status of a Capellan, be he Citizen or servitor, is voluntary on the part of the individual in question. The individual alone is responsible for his station in life.
See above.
The Confederation fights to restore the world of Chesterton to Capellan ownership, as it is the collective property of the Capellan people as embodied in the State. While I hope with all my heart that the people of Chesterton would see the wisdom and benefit of participating in the Capellan State, that is a personal choice for them to make, and ultimately irrelevent to our cause. If an inhabitant of Chesterton so vehemently disagrees with the nature of Capellan society, I entreat them to immigrate to a traditionally Federated Suns world like Broken Wheel, and return to the people of the Confederation that which was wrongfully taken from them.
Over two and a half billion people live on Chesterton.
Aren't you offering them, implicitly, the same choice you offer anyone born in the Confederation? Either 1) become a Capellan citizen, 2) be a servitor, or 3) leave the Confederation?
I think I explained above why I think that choice is immensely unjust when offered to people actually born in the Confederation. Applying it to billions of people born outside the Confederation, whose ancestors for centuries upon centuries have been born and lived entirely outside the Confederation... well, if anything, that's much worse.
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(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/Battletech/Liao-Obey.jpg)
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(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/Battletech/Liao-Obey.jpg)
If I were a CapCon fan, I'd turn that into a banner and hang it in my house.
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If I were a CapCon fan, I'd turn that into a banner and hang it in my house.
I have one for FWL fans, too:
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/Battletech/Marik-Boring.jpg)
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Doesn't a servitor, through his or her labour, engage in wealth creation? A servitor who takes a natural resource and makes it into something of greater value is creating wealth. I suppose the most basic example would be taking a piece of wood from a tree and carving it into something useful.
Is such a thing useful to the State? Does such a thing bring wealth to the State? Does he do so of his personal volition, or at the behest of a Citizen for a wage? Does it meet the established threshold for sufficient service? Obviously, changing the toilet paper roll in a public bathroom once may be a public service, but such an insignificant amount is not sufficient enough to grant Citizenship upon. Quite similarly, A servitor may produce an item for a wage, but the item produced would be produced for a wage whether by the servitor or by a Citizen, because it is made at the behest of a Citizen at the monetary cost of a Citizen. The servitor's involvment is simply in the obtaining of a wage for himself. Ergo, merely producing goods for wage is insufficient to obtain Citizenship.
Firstly: the citizenship criteria are expressly political in nature. To become a citizen, and be entitled to even the most basic of government services, one is required to demonstrate political orthodoxy.
Not true. One is required to provide sufficient service to the State, your community. Political orthodoxy is encouraged, but not required. While one could obtain Citizenship through, for example, an artpiece praising the State, one could just as easily obtain Citizenship by acting as a volunteer crossing-guard, with no political motives attached.
The Capellan education system is similarly designed to create political orthodoxy; and to generalise, the entire Capellan governmental system, including the citizenship system, is designed to teach the people born in the Confederation to be fanatically loyal to a particular ideology.
Why should a country's educational system teach disloyalty? Why should the Citizens teach people to be disloyal at their expense?
Secondly: the political ideology in question is one of obvious benefit to the current ruling class of the Confederation, and to the Liao family in particular. While it is unsurprising that the maintenance of a political status quo should benefit the people at the top of that status quo (for similarly the Mariks, Steiners, and Davions benefit from being at the top), it encourages one to be skeptical about the selflessness of the Liao family. The Capellan system of government, it seems to me, lacks any real checks or balances that might prevent Liaoist tyranny (cf. Parliament and the Mariks, the Estates General and the Steiners).
If I may, the kind of political gridlock and inaction created by bodies such as the League Parliament does nothing but endanger the security of the State as it splinters and weakens the States military and political foundations. One of the reasons why the Capellan Confederation has survived for almost a thousand years is because the people intrinsically understand that first and foremost, we are all in this together, and will survive or fail as a unit. If the leader is failing in their duties, the incompetent party will be forced from power, whether by the Prefectorate, his family members, or a Citizen's bullet. So has it always been in the Confederation, from Kalvin to Romano.
Thirdly: the citizenship criteria actually turn out to be coercively hostile. While a person has the choice to try for citizenship or not, this is not a fair or meaningful choice. A person born on a Capellan world may either 1) try to internalise the Capellan ideology and become a citizen or 2) be a servitor, and thus be economically and socially disadvantaged for one's entire life and unable to leave the Confederation. In this way it is only possible for a person born in the Capellan Confederation to live a full and rich life is to adhere to the state ideology; this suppresses possibility for dissent or debate. Essentially, Capellan citizenship is Hobson's Choice. (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice), though I'm sure you're familiar with it.)
As a servitor exists outside the State, it is not the State's responsiblity to furnish the servitor with other options when he passes on the opportunity for Citizenship. If I offer you a job, you may take it or not take it, but it is not my responsibility to make sure you have other job options. Similarly, the Confederation is not responsible to provide a servitor with other life options, as the servitor, in not obtaining Citizenship, has become outside of the State's responsibility. The Servitor is more than welcome to find ways to immigrate outside the Confederation or form a working commune with his fellow servitors which does not interfere with the Confederation proper.
Fourthly: this system is justified in terms of servitors' non-participation in the Capellan state; that is to say, the community of the citizen body. However, as both Liao sourcebooks tell us, the servitor caste constitutes between 20-30% of the population of the Confederation worlds. Both books note the important role of the servitors in the Confederation economy. ('Servitors are used for the day-to-day, mundane tasks that other Capellans have no desire to deal with.' p. 111 HLSB. 'Servitors perform society's mundane tasks, those that are necessary but that other Capellans are unwilling or disinclined to do.' p. 116 HB:HL.) In this sense servitors do actively participate in the economic and social life of the communities of the Capellan worlds, and the attempted dismissal of them as non-participants can't work.
The role of the servitor is unessential. While a servitor may take on a job from a Citizen which Citizen's finds undesirable, were there no servitors available, the task would still be performed, just by a Citizen. As the task itself is performed not for the good of the community, but for the purpose of obtaining a wage for the servitor, it does not constitute service to the State. Should a servitor elect to perform their duty as a public service for a given period of time, the nature of the labor has changed, and may be evaluated as service to the State and earn them Citizenship. In establishing a minimum wage for servitors, it can be argued that Our Beloved Chancellor has actually made it even easier for servitors to obtain Citizenship. Whereas prior to his decree a servitor could be paid such a pittance that it'd require the entirety of his waking hours to simply earn enough to subsist, by mandating a servitor recieves a certain value, the Chancellor makes it possible for that servitor to gain enough time to begin giving back to his community.
Fifthly: local societies and governments are structured according to the overarching Capellan ideology, with little right to modify or reform it as need. Unlike both the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns, where the populations of individual planets have the right to constitute planetary governments as they see fit, within certain broad criteria (I believe the Lyrans have something similar; but I'm less sure with them), the ideal structure of a Capellan planetary government is dictated by the central government of the Confederation.
The day to day life of a Capellan Citizen is primarily influenced by his or her caste, which is led by an elected body. Indeed, because a caste is an interstellar entity not confined to merely the local system, arguably a Capellan Citizen has a greater influence over his way of life than a League or Federated Suns inhabitant who's say in governance rarely reaches beyond the planetary level and is unable to influence the financial and political interactions between systems which directly effect him or her.
In short, the objection is: Capellan citizenship is a coercive tool designed to indoctrinate individuals with fanatical loyalty to the Capellan government, systematically disenfranchising and discriminating against a large proportion of the population, for the benefit of a self-serving elite.
Capellan Citizenship is voluntary membership in a supportive-community of like-minded individuals which provides substantial benefits for one's health, education, safety, finances, and spiritual well-being. It is open to all human beings regardless of race, religion, ancestory or sexual orientation, and does not force participation on the individual. Just as the people of the Lyran Commonwealth are not responsible for the safety, security and well-being of the people of Taurus, the Confederation is not responsible for the safety, security and well-being of those within it's borders who have elected not to participate in it.
Of course, I should also have a proposed solution. Political criticisms need to be allied to proposals for political reform. As bad as any particular government might be, it is still an unfortunate truth that we need to have a government. How would I improve the Capellan Confederation? Firstly, I would reform the education system, and alter the excessive focus on political orthodoxy.
I think that any change in focus would lead to more servitors, a very sad state of affairs, and one which the Confederation can ill afford. I do not inherently object, but I feel that a strong support of one's country is always an important asset, and if one vehemently disagrees with the means and methods of one's country, one can always consider immigrating.
I would then either make citizenship universal, or remove the requirement of political orthodoxy. (So for example citizenship would still be contingent on some volunteer work to prove one will contribute to the community; but there would be no political requirement; so, participation in, say, any reputable charity organisation would suffice.)
There exists no requirement for political orthodoxy.
Then I would moderate the power of the Chancellor and hand back a significant amount of political power to the Prefectorate and the House of Scions. (On a side note, Aleisha Liao actually did this: one reason I think she was one of the better Chancellors. Sun-Tzu, I believe, also gave the House of Scions more power, so I approve of him there.)
Sounds fine and good, although without going into details its hard to really decide if it's a truly good idea or poor one.
I would introduce provisions for greater diversity in planetary government.
Not sure to what extent that's truly necessary, but I think we should all be open to any possibility of advancement. As His Celestial Wisdom has said "I will not tolerate willful ignorance"
Lastly, I would move to allow more freedom for large private organisations to exist. Sun-Tzu has actually done more to allow Capellan corporations some freedom. (Though do not misread me as wanting to give corporations too much power! They can be just as bad as governments, and worse besides.) More importantly, this would allow private political and religious organisations to exist on a much larger scale than they do currently.
The Confederation is open to all political and religous organizations provided they are not directly hostile to the State. It is perfectly reasonable to say "I feel that there are better ways we could do X". What is unacceptable is to say "We should destroy the Confederation because it's a horrible hateful country." Such declarations against an individual would constitute a threat of violence and be criminal. I fail to understand why they should be tolerated by the State, which is nothing more than a collective body of individuals.
It honestly seems that the majority of your suggestions are all things His Celestial Wisdom has already done, although perhaps not to the degree you would like. Still, we can't all have everything we want. There should be room for compromise ;)
Very well: I'll accept that. Candace could have removed Maximillian from power, assumed the Chancellorship, and led the Confederation towards a greater peace. (Ridzik not so much; his authority to act on behalf of the Confederation, as a non-Liao, is more in question.) I do not condemn her as you do, but I'll grant the possibility.
Do you really think that Hanse Davion would have ceased the invasion in that case, though? It is entirely possible he might have, but I suspect that with Candace on the throne you would see either a three way FedCom-Confederation alliance; or the Confederation would effectively become a FedCom satellite.
Would you not consider existing in alliance with or as a satellite (temporary or otherwise) of the Federated Commonwealth as not being a better solution than the Confederation losing even more territory and suffering for decades under Romano Liao? Let's be realist here. I hate the Davions for what they did to my nation, and I feel that eventually we must return our worlds to us, but perhaps Candace could have negotiated their eventual return or we could have simply waited out the FedCom and allowed for its inevitable implosion? There is more than one way to skin a cat.
While I would be happy to see a FedCom-Confederation alliance - a ConFedCom, if you will - I rather suspect that you would disagree.
You've obviously never seen my collection of Confederated Suns avatars. ;)
I would have to disagree there. Certainly I think there's some relativity in government. Governments are rated as good or bad based on how well they serve the interests and guarantee the rights of their people. As such whether a particular form of government is good or bad is dependent on a huge number of cultural and technological factors. There is no governmental structure that is right in all circumstances. Nonetheless, I do think that for a given set of circumstances, there can be better systems of government than others.
I'd disagree, because ultimately, all governments are are a collection of people making decisions. Irregardless on the system by which the decisions are reached, it is ultimately the people involved themselves, and not the method by which said people are organized that ultimately determine whether a government serves the people or just the rulers. Some of the worst regimes in history were borne out of democracy.
Surely this is non-controversial? Wouldn't you say that Sun-Tzu's reforms to the Confederation government had the overall effect of improving that government? A government isn't just a collection of people, good or bad: it's a complex set of systems through which those people interact.
Chancellor Sun-Tzu Liao's reforms reflect his benevolent character. Replace Our Beloved Chancellor and the current Prefects and Sheng with people of lesser moral calibur and the results would be terrible, irregardless of the method of organization and distribution.
Over two and a half billion people live on Chesterton.
Aren't you offering them, implicitly, the same choice you offer anyone born in the Confederation? Either 1) become a Capellan citizen, 2) be a servitor, or 3) leave the Confederation?
They are squatting on land rightfully the property of the Capellan people. I don't really see a problem with that.
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My wife is a home schooling mom (and a certified teacher) and every time I read this highly entertaining thread, I keep thinking about how it would make a great social studies curriculum. And then I remember that I'm in Texas.
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My wife is a home schooling mom (and a certified teacher) and every time I read this highly entertaining thread, I keep thinking about how it would make a great social studies curriculum. And then I remember that I'm in Texas.
Sometimes when I teach summer government, I'll take on the class in a debate about the rights vs responsibilities of citizenship that plays a lot like this thread. Good times.
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You know, I've been thinking about this long and hard and I have come to the conclusion that the Capellan Confederation is not evil. Well, torturing people and whatnot is evil per se (like the other Houses don't do it), and they've had insane Chancellors and whatnot, but overall I don't think they're evil. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather live in Davion space, but I think the overall cultural expression of the Capellans (which, thinking about it, really isn't that much different from the Korean culture in which I was raised) is good.
Now House Kurita, they're evil.
The Cappellan Confederation and is leadership is Evil. Their is a reason why they were a black hat in 3025 and are again in 3132. They are better at it than Kurita thats for sure as the CapCon atleast has its own people convinced that they are good.
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Is such a thing useful to the State? Does such a thing bring wealth to the State? Does he do so of his personal volition, or at the behest of a Citizen for a wage? Does it meet the established threshold for sufficient service? Obviously, changing the toilet paper roll in a public bathroom once may be a public service, but such an insignificant amount is not sufficient enough to grant Citizenship upon. Quite similarly, A servitor may produce an item for a wage, but the item produced would be produced for a wage whether by the servitor or by a Citizen, because it is made at the behest of a Citizen at the monetary cost of a Citizen. The servitor's involvment is simply in the obtaining of a wage for himself. Ergo, merely producing goods for wage is insufficient to obtain Citizenship.
As pointed out, servitors make up approximately a quarter of the entire population of the Confederation. They play a vital role in the overall economic structure of the Confederation, and in the Confederation hierarchy. Without the constant work of the servitors, doing jobs that other Capellans 'are unwilling or disinclined to do' (p. 116 HB:HL, as noted in my last post), the Confederation would immensely suffer.
Let us imagine that tomorrow some marvellous new travel technology is invented, or the very hand of God reaches down to do this, and every servitor in the Confederation suddenly goes to another nation in the Inner Sphere, and starts working there. What happens to the Confederation? Mass social upheaval. Entire economies need to be restructured. Maybe it's survivable, maybe not, but the fact is that the Confederation in its present state depends on the servitors. They perform vital services.
It is my contention that the Capellan state is structured in such a way as to disenfranchise and exploit vast numbers of people in a fundamentally unjust way. The Confederation cannot actually afford either for all the servitors to leave or for all the servitors to become citizens.
(For a vivid example, see the sidebar on p. 119 of HB:HL. That is to say: it does not matter how actually productive a servitor is, or what they contributed to their community.)
Not true. One is required to provide sufficient service to the State, your community. Political orthodoxy is encouraged, but not required. While one could obtain Citizenship through, for example, an artpiece praising the State, one could just as easily obtain Citizenship by acting as a volunteer crossing-guard, with no political motives attached.
Let's refer to the sourcebook here.
HB:HL:
The Ministry of Social Education regulates citizenship, and the obligation to provide some service to the state is taken seriously during the child’s growth and education. By age fifteen, a native Capellan must have completed his citizenship service, normally a volunteer program designed to provide a vehicle for citizenship — for example, working in the conservation corps or the Capellan Star Scouts, or volunteering in a hospital or retirement hospice.
Citizenship is expressly required to be 'some service to the state'. The word 'state' in this context is not a synonym for 'community' or 'citizen body'. In the previous paragraph, for instance, it states that at birth 'every Capellan is legally made a ward of the state under the nominal authority of the child's parents or state-appointed guardians'. This use of the word 'state' cannot reasonably be interpreted to mean anything but the governing institutions of the Confederation, and it's unreasonable to assume that the meaning of the word would radically change from paragraph to paragraph. The example services are all either services to governmental institutions or potentially government-run institutions. (Are most hospitals or retirement homes in the Confederation operated privately, or by the state?)
Further, my statement was not simply about the required service. I said 'To become a citizen... one is required to demonstrate political orthodoxy'. Here is some supporting evidence:
(Please note: I include quotes about the education system here, as it seems that one purpose of the education system is to prepare Capellans for citizenship. Citizenship tests and caste assignment occurs at the age of fifteen, after a free decade of education; and it seems clear that the state-sponsored education system has some bearing on the tests. Note HB:HL p. 116: Political education begins in elementary school, as a necessary part of the journey toward citizenship that every Capellan child is expected to undertake. Capellan education is intended to prepare children for citizenship and it does involve instruction in political orthodoxy.)
HLSB p. 109. Every Capellan citizen has certain obligations to his fellows and to the state. He must take an oath of allegiance to the Confederation, to House Liao, and to the Chancellor, whose dictates are not to be questioned.
HLSB p. 113. While free education is extended to all Capellan citizens aged 5 to 15, such education is administered with a strong element of political indoctrination.
HLSB p. 66: Everything. The Philosophical Examinars, the Courts of Philosophical Inquirity, and the Ranks of the Dedicated. These 'thought control' watchdogs exist to ensure political orthodoxy, and in the case of unacceptable philosophical beliefs, people can be stripped of citizenship (it specifically says 'all rank and holdings'; I take this to include citizenship). To claim in the face of this that the Confederation government does not require the display of orthodox political attitudes and does not actively attempt to suppress dissent is, in short, simply wrong.
HB:HL p. 114. A Capellan youth who fails to meet his or her citizenship requirements by age fifteen is put on probation and subjected to a crash program of social and political indoctrination. Because the MSE recognizes a lack of sufficient moral character as the only reason a child would not be sufficiently motivated to earn citizenship, these classes emphasize the need for a strong state and the sacrifices an individual must be willing to make to ensure the state’s prosperity.
HB:HL p. 114. As a citizen of the Confederation, every Capellan is expected to place the good of the state before personal gain. As a testament to that, every citizen must take an oath of loyalty to the Confederation, to House Liao and to the Chancellor, whose decrees may not be questioned.
HB:HL p. 116. ...the Capellan education system remains a state-sponsored program designed to serve and empower the state.
HB:HL, p. 119. Protected societies like the Capellan Confederation require a steady level of government-sponsored information to shape public opinion in a way that keeps the current regime in power and avoids disruptive threats of proletarian rebellion and loss of efficiency.
(That's not strictly relevant to this point. I am just surprised to see that level of honesty from a Confederation source. The heading - Propaganda - and the rest of the section, which openly admits that the Confederation government deceives its people about the true reasons for the Trinity Alliance, is rather telling.)
HB:HL, p. 124. From their early years, every Capellan is educated (some say indoctrinated) with the belief that the Confederation is more important than they are. Every Capellan, even before he or she becomes a citizen, is imbued with the knowledge that they will better prosper among the rest of the Capellan family — that achievement without sharing is hollow and wasteful. Capellans, as a nation, share all sacrifices equally so that no undue burden is placed on one person.
That will do for now.
My point is: the Capellan citizenship tests, the citizenship oath, and the state education designed to prepare Capellans for citizenship tests, all demand political orthodoxy.
If I may, the kind of political gridlock and inaction created by bodies such as the League Parliament does nothing but endanger the security of the State as it splinters and weakens the States military and political foundations.
That's certainly possible, and I'm not suggesting that the League Parliament has the balance of power between house lord and governmental body exactly right. Perhaps the Lyran Commonwealth (...sorry, it's never going to be the 'Alliance' to me) or the Federated Suns have a better balance.
One of the reasons why the Capellan Confederation has survived for almost a thousand years is because the people intrinsically understand that first and foremost, we are all in this together, and will survive or fail as a unit.
One cannot help but notice that during the Succession Wars, the Confederation was the least successful successor state when it came to survival, and even looking forward, the implosion of the Free Worlds League still leaves the Confederation second-last. Justifying Confederation government policies in terms of the historical success of the Confederation state seems incredibly questionable, because relative to its neighbours the Confederation has not been very good at surviving. It has consistently lost ground on all fronts through all of the Succession Wars; and in the Age of War, the Confederation only held even on the League front and lost ground on the Suns front.
I don't mean to sound petty about this, but if the Capellan system of state is so good at survival, you would expect the Confederation to, I don't know, not shrink in each and every war it gets into.
In fact, and I am afraid this may sound equally petty, I am trying to think of a war the Confederation has ever won. Off the top of my head, I can think only of Operation Guerrero, the reclamation of St. Ives, and the defeat of Operation Sovereign Justice and corresponding push into the Capellan March. And yet: all the heavy-lifting in Guerrero was done by the Free Worlds League, against a distracted enemy; St. Ives was managed with the misappropriation of SLDF forces; and Sovereign Justice involved defeating a single march of a nation ravaged by civil war and which had still not completed rebuilding, while that nation was distracted with missing national leadership, a simultaneous Taurian invasion, and Blakist troops on their capital. That is: in every war I can think of in which the Confederation won, there were severe extenuating circumstances.
Sorry to say this, but if the Confederation system of government was ideally suited to survival, and thus, implicitly, to military success, the Confederation would not be so consistently unsuccessful in war.
As a servitor exists outside the State, it is not the State's responsiblity to furnish the servitor with other options when he passes on the opportunity for Citizenship. If I offer you a job, you may take it or not take it, but it is not my responsibility to make sure you have other job options. Similarly, the Confederation is not responsible to provide a servitor with other life options, as the servitor, in not obtaining Citizenship, has become outside of the State's responsibility. The Servitor is more than welcome to find ways to immigrate outside the Confederation or form a working commune with his fellow servitors which does not interfere with the Confederation proper.
I would contend that as the Confederation is responsible for creating the overall social circumstances which condition a servitor's life, it cannot simply dismiss their claims.
The role of the servitor is unessential. While a servitor may take on a job from a Citizen which Citizen's finds undesirable, were there no servitors available, the task would still be performed, just by a Citizen.
See the top of this post. The simple thought exercise 'what if all servitors were removed from the Confederation and ceased to economically contribute to it?' puts the lie to this claim.
Capellan Citizenship is voluntary membership in a supportive-community of like-minded individuals which provides substantial benefits for one's health, education, safety, finances, and spiritual well-being. It is open to all human beings regardless of race, religion, ancestory or sexual orientation, and does not force participation on the individual. Just as the people of the Lyran Commonwealth are not responsible for the safety, security and well-being of the people of Taurus, the Confederation is not responsible for the safety, security and well-being of those within it's borders who have elected not to participate in it.
They do participate in it. They have no choice.
I could say more, but this post is long and I am tired; and I think that sums it up well anyway.
I think that any change in focus would lead to more servitors, a very sad state of affairs, and one which the Confederation can ill afford.
...please explain how making the requirements more lenient would cause more people to fail the tests?
There exists no requirement for political orthodoxy.
This is a flat out lie.
As quoted above, becoming a citizen requires one to swear an oath explicitly stating one's political loyalty to the Confederation, House Liao, and the Chancellor.
The Confederation is open to all political and religous organizations provided they are not directly hostile to the State.
Please explain this for me, then.
HB:HL, p. 121. The Confederation has historically had little use for organized religion - such loyalties often detract from a good Capellan citizen’s efforts to further the state’s goals — but since the Liberation of 3057, the Liao Commonality especially has shown remarkable tolerance of other faiths. The former Federated Commonwealth subjects returned to the Confederation with the religions of their fathers and mothers, and the Prefect of the commonality recently announced his intention to approach
the New Avalon Catholic Church to appoint a bishop for the Liao Commonality worlds. Whether the Chancellor will allow this, or even permit this level of religious diversity to spread throughout the Confederation, remains to be seen.
If the Confederation allows all political or religious organisations that are not hostile to the state, why would it even be a question whether the Chancellor will allow religious diversity to spread?
It is perfectly reasonable to say "I feel that there are better ways we could do X". What is unacceptable is to say "We should destroy the Confederation because it's a horrible hateful country." Such declarations against an individual would constitute a threat of violence and be criminal. I fail to understand why they should be tolerated by the State, which is nothing more than a collective body of individuals.
Because the state isn't a thing. It's a social convention. Saying 'I think we should destroy the Confederation government' is not a threat directed at anyone. It is a request that a certain system of institutions be dismantled. It is criminal to declare intent to harm an individual, certainly; but the state is not an individual. It is not even a collection of individuals. It is a system of political institutions.
Would you not consider existing in alliance with or as a satellite (temporary or otherwise) of the Federated Commonwealth as not being a better solution than the Confederation losing even more territory and suffering for decades under Romano Liao? Let's be realist here.
Yes.
But then again, I would consider a complete and unconditional surrender of all worlds to the Federated Commonwealth a better solution than either, so you may want to take that with a pinch of salt. ;)
You've obviously never seen my collection of Confederated Suns avatars. ;)
I have heard of that. As I recall: Ilsa Liao and Paul Davion hook up, make an early merger of the two states, and eventually the Confederation and Suns become a genuinely single state?
Not a proposal without its own set of plausibility issues, but an interesting alternate history nonetheless.
I'd disagree, because ultimately, all governments are are a collection of people making decisions. Irregardless on the system by which the decisions are reached, it is ultimately the people involved themselves, and not the method by which said people are organized that ultimately determine whether a government serves the people or just the rulers. Some of the worst regimes in history were borne out of democracy.
Democracy isn't a governmental system, so nyah. :P
Seriously? I'm not actually going in to bat for democracy here, nor even for republicanism. I don't think they're the only viable models. I don't think it can be denied, though, that the overall framework of government defines and guides the process by which decisions are made. Any system can be changed or manipulated by a sufficiently powerful, wealthy, or charismatic individual, of course; but to blindly dismiss the role of the institutional structure of the state in that state's decision-making processes seems hopelessly naive to me.
They are squatting on land rightfully the property of the Capellan people. I don't really see a problem with that.
...let's not have the argument about that right now.
I can only bang my head into one brick wall at a time! ;)
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The Cappellan Confederation and is leadership is Evil. Their is a reason why they were a black hat in 3025 and are again in 3132. They are better at it than Kurita thats for sure as the CapCon atleast has its own people convinced that they are good.
Which is the greater evil, the one that is open about it, or the one that has tricked you into believing otherwise?
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Which is the greater evil, the one that is open about it, or the one that has tricked you into believing otherwise?
The one that would decieve you.
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One cannot help but notice that during the Succession Wars, the Confederation was the least successful successor state when it came to survival, and even looking forward, the implosion of the Free Worlds League still leaves the Confederation second-last. Justifying Confederation government policies in terms of the historical success of the Confederation state seems incredibly questionable, because relative to its neighbours the Confederation has not been very good at surviving. It has consistently lost ground on all fronts through all of the Succession Wars; and in the Age of War, the Confederation only held even on the League front and lost ground on the Suns front.
The Confederation held even on the League front ???
might want to check the maps on that one.
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The Confederation held even on the League front ???
might want to check the maps on that one.
In retrospect, the league should have let them keep Andurien. The Huphreys inside of the CapCon during the 4th war? Hijinks ensue :D
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Let us imagine that tomorrow some marvellous new travel technology is invented, or the very hand of God reaches down to do this, and every servitor in the Confederation suddenly goes to another nation in the Inner Sphere, and starts working there. What happens to the Confederation? Mass social upheaval. Entire economies need to be restructured. Maybe it's survivable, maybe not, but the fact is that the Confederation in its present state depends on the servitors. They perform vital services.
It is my contention that the Capellan state is structured in such a way as to disenfranchise and exploit vast numbers of people in a fundamentally unjust way. The Confederation cannot actually afford either for all the servitors to leave or for all the servitors to become citizens.
This is really the key point to be made. On any objective basis, the argument that servitors, as a caste, contribute nothing is absurd on its face. Societies live and die in part on their dependency ratio. That is, the ratio of people who are non-productive to those who are productive. As a standard convention, we today measure that by considering everyone under the age of 14 or over the age of 65 or so (the assumption being that these individuals are generally less capable of economically providing for themselves). The higher the dependency ratio, the more difficulty a nation typically has economically (this is one of the factors eternally screwing all those sub-Saharan states that suffer extensively from the AIDS epidemic: this disease, as with some others, tends to result in a lot of orphan children in these states). If we assume 25% of the CapCon is comprised of servitors (and we agree that none of these are children), then you are facing a dependency ratio of something approaching 1.0, which is really, really, really bad. For comparison, that's about where you'll find the Democratic Republic of Congo, Angola, and Somalia. Regardless, if they were truly not contributing to society, the CapCon would permanently be on the edge of economic collapse.
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Really enjoying this thread. Excellent stuff, congrats all around. [applause]
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Before MadCap responds again, a couple of other thoughts about the Confederation have been percolating and I may as well get them out there. They may be terribly incoherent, but perhaps they'll be of interest to someone other than me. Specifically, I have two thoughts:
1) The Confederation is justified in terms of the free choices of the people born within it. The fundamental ideological justification for the Confederation, as MadCapellan has put it, is the idea of choice.
2) In this topic the Confederation has been defended with the claim that it is not part of the Western liberal political tradition, and instead follows other values. (Confucianism was mentioned, as part of this wonderful mythical idea of 'Asian values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_values)', which presumably inspire the Confederation, in contrast to the individualist, selfish, culturally imperialist values of both the modern West and the three 'Western' states of BattleTech.) However, in following the above ideology of choice, the Confederation is not just part of the classical liberal tradition: it is, in fact, far more associated with that tradition than the other states or of Western civilisation in general.
Let me explain.
Every time the servitor situation is brought up, or the notion of enforced normative political orthodoxy is raised, MadCapellan's response is to portray the Confederation as an 'opt-in' social organisation. Children are brought up, educated about the benefits and requirements of Capellan citizenship, and then make a free choice about whether to participate in it. The free and informed nature of this choice ethically justifies it. The Confederation government thus exists by the consent of the governed, i.e. the citizens. Servitors, of course, are ungoverned.
It is, of course, implied that any sensible and rational person would choose to participate in the Capellan community and become a citizen. If I may be permitted a glib and sweeping generalisation, this is basically social contract theory, but with the contract made explicit rather than implicit. A child is raised. They are offered a social contract. They sign it and become a citzen, with all requisite responsibilities to society and social privileges; or they don't sign it, and exist in the state of nature. And of course: a rational person would sign the contract. Everyone in the Confederation is born into a Hobbesian state of nature. When they come of age they make a free and informed choice either to surrender some of their freedoms and become part of a larger social contract, or they choose to remain in the state of nature, with no social rights of any sort. (I mean, I think Hobbes would really like the Confederation. What are other people's intuitions on that?)
This rests on a certain view of humanity, I would say. A person is expected to be rational, independent, and culturally autonomous. The Capellan citizenship contract can be impartially assessed and responded to, by a rationally capable, independent individual who can objectively size up the benefits. This, it seems to me, actually tallies very well with the classical liberal view of the person. I am not a student of politics; this is just my understanding.
Why do I say that's more of a Western liberal idea than those of the actual Western states of BattleTech, i.e. the Suns, League, and Commonwealth? Because the Confederation is a designed society. It has been artificially created, from the ground up, according to certain ideologies. The Western governments of the world today do not meet all the demands of classical liberal orthodoxy, because they have evolved naturally over centuries and incorporated large numbers of non-liberal ideas. The Magna Carta, for instance, often thought of as a vital milestone in the development of Western (or at least Anglo-Saxon) civilisation, is a pre-liberal document. The idea of a parliament has its origins in the Middle Ages, and calls back even further.
Anyway.
Those are just a few random thoughts. I am not sure how much sense they make.
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As pointed out, servitors make up approximately a quarter of the entire population of the Confederation. They play a vital role in the overall economic structure of the Confederation, and in the Confederation hierarchy. Without the constant work of the servitors, doing jobs that other Capellans 'are unwilling or disinclined to do' (p. 116 HB:HL, as noted in my last post), the Confederation would immensely suffer.
I guess I simply have to disagree. The overall percentage of the Confederation's wealth, as in the hands of servitors, is negligible. Similarly, the tasks as performed by servitors could equally be performed by both Citizens and aspiring Citizens.
Let us imagine that tomorrow some marvellous new travel technology is invented, or the very hand of God reaches down to do this, and every servitor in the Confederation suddenly goes to another nation in the Inner Sphere, and starts working there. What happens to the Confederation? Mass social upheaval. Entire economies need to be restructured. Maybe it's survivable, maybe not, but the fact is that the Confederation in its present state depends on the servitors. They perform vital services.
This line of argument is misleading and a correlation equals causality fallacy. Removing any element suddenly from an economy will cause massive upheaval. Removing all wheels, or all lightbulbs would result in a similar disruption, but none of them are deserving of rights or Citizenship. As I stated above, as a servitor's participation in the economy is both replaceable, and self-serving, it does not constitute qualification for Citizenship.
It is my contention that the Capellan state is structured in such a way as to disenfranchise and exploit vast numbers of people in a fundamentally unjust way. The Confederation cannot actually afford either for all the servitors to leave or for all the servitors to become citizens.
Once again, I disagree. If all people became Citizens, while that might ultimately raise the cost of services, it would not destroy the state. Arguably, as Citizens contribute more than servitors, the State would be more enriched by their contribution.
(For a vivid example, see the sidebar on p. 119 of HB:HL. That is to say: it does not matter how actually productive a servitor is, or what they contributed to their community.)
I don't particularly see being involved in the chamber of commerce of a non-Capellan world as being anything really providing for the State, so I'm not particularly hung up about this.
Citizenship is expressly required to be 'some service to the state'. The word 'state' in this context is not a synonym for 'community' or 'citizen body'.
It most certainly is, because that is what the term means.
In the previous paragraph, for instance, it states that at birth 'every Capellan is legally made a ward of the state under the nominal authority of the child's parents or state-appointed guardians'. This use of the word 'state' cannot reasonably be interpreted to mean anything but the governing institutions of the Confederation, and it's unreasonable to assume that the meaning of the word would radically change from paragraph to paragraph.
It does not, because it means both. The State is a collective - it's government and people as a whole. If the author intended the word government, then they'd have written "government".
The example services are all either services to governmental institutions or potentially government-run institutions. (Are most hospitals or retirement homes in the Confederation operated privately, or by the state?)
I'm sure that you assume the Capellan Star Scouts are a government institution, as you would everything else. The simple fact of the matter is that the Capellan Confederaiton is very much a collectivist society. You're going to find it pretty hard to separate anything from the State - the State is everything.
HLSB p. 109. Every Capellan citizen has certain obligations to his fellows and to the state. He must take an oath of allegiance to the Confederation, to House Liao, and to the Chancellor, whose dictates are not to be questioned.
Most nations require oaths of allegience from new Citizens. This is no unique Capellan trait. Why should the Capellan Confederation admit someone who intends disloyalty towards it? I don't want spies and anarchists in my community or family, do you?
HLSB p. 113. While free education is extended to all Capellan citizens aged 5 to 15, such education is administered with a strong element of political indoctrination.
Again, I'm not seeing a problem here. All societies teach their own version of history and attempt to instill a sense of national and civic pride in their young people.
HLSB p. 66: Everything. The Philosophical Examinars, the Courts of Philosophical Inquirity, and the Ranks of the Dedicated. These 'thought control' watchdogs exist to ensure political orthodoxy, and in the case of unacceptable philosophical beliefs, people can be stripped of citizenship (it specifically says 'all rank and holdings'; I take this to include citizenship). To claim in the face of this that the Confederation government does not require the display of orthodox political attitudes and does not actively attempt to suppress dissent is, in short, simply wrong.
The State requires loyalty, which is not the same thing as "political orthodoxy". Orthodoxy implies that your views do not deviate with a set standard, the opposite of heresy. Loyalty simply means that you act at all times in support of the State. One can support the State in unorthodox ways, something which is not simply tolerated, but encouraged by Our Beloved Chancellor.
HB:HL, p. 124. From their early years, every Capellan is educated (some say indoctrinated) with the belief that the Confederation is more important than they are. Every Capellan, even before he or she becomes a citizen, is imbued with the knowledge that they will better prosper among the rest of the Capellan family — that achievement without sharing is hollow and wasteful. Capellans, as a nation, share all sacrifices equally so that no undue burden is placed on one person.
"Achievement without sharing is hollow and wasteful" - That sounds like just darn good principles! Perhaps everyone could do with a little more Capellan education? ;)
My point is: the Capellan citizenship tests, the citizenship oath, and the state education designed to prepare Capellans for citizenship tests, all demand political orthodoxy.
As I said above, you're use of the term "political orthodoxy" is incorrect. The State demands loyalty from it's Citizens, as does any political entity. "Orthodoxy" is for Blakists and Clanners.
One cannot help but notice that during the Succession Wars, the Confederation was the least successful successor state when it came to survival, and even looking forward, the implosion of the Free Worlds League still leaves the Confederation second-last. Justifying Confederation government policies in terms of the historical success of the Confederation state seems incredibly questionable, because relative to its neighbours the Confederation has not been very good at surviving.
The Capellan Confederation is the youngest of the five Great Houses, and the smallest and weakest to begin with. Just by the numbers, it should have ceased to exist years ago. The fact that we haven't and have infact fought back and restored many of our worlds to our control is proof positive of the effectiveness of the Capellan government.
I would contend that as the Confederation is responsible for creating the overall social circumstances which condition a servitor's life, it cannot simply dismiss their claims.
By that logic, parents of murderers are responsible for the crimes of their children, because they created the overall circumstances that contributed to their deviency. Such an argument suggests that there is no such thing as personal responsibility and is ultimately both ludicrous and meaningless.
See the top of this post. The simple thought exercise 'what if all servitors were removed from the Confederation and ceased to economically contribute to it?' puts the lie to this claim.
Please, pay the Confederation to ship all our servitors to you, you would have my gratitude. The last thing we need on our worlds is all this dead weight. I have yet to be appraised of any essential task which they perform, as anything they can do is also a task which could be performed by the honorable Commonality.
They do participate in it. They have no choice.
All men have free will. There is no such thing as "no choice", simply choices you don't like. Tough. Life is full of choices we don't like. I would like for the Davions to stop selfishly invading our nation and justifying their killing and theft as "freedom".
...please explain how making the requirements more lenient would cause more people to fail the tests?
Less focus on civil responsiblity will lead to less of a sense of duty to one's community, and ultimately fewer Citizens, not a thing we need.
This is a flat out lie.
As quoted above, becoming a citizen requires one to swear an oath explicitly stating one's political loyalty to the Confederation, House Liao, and the Chancellor.
Loyalty is not political orthodoxy.
Please explain this for me, then.
HB:HL, p. 121. The Confederation has historically had little use for organized religion - such loyalties often detract from a good Capellan citizen’s efforts to further the state’s goals — but since the Liberation of 3057, the Liao Commonality especially has shown remarkable tolerance of other faiths. The former Federated Commonwealth subjects returned to the Confederation with the religions of their fathers and mothers, and the Prefect of the commonality recently announced his intention to approach
the New Avalon Catholic Church to appoint a bishop for the Liao Commonality worlds. Whether the Chancellor will allow this, or even permit this level of religious diversity to spread throughout the Confederation, remains to be seen.
The Confederation does not outlaw the practice of any religion. That said, I would think that a country would have to be daft to not question the sanity of allowing any organization with such obvious political ties to an enemy nation as the New Avalon Catholic Church to directly minister to it's populace without any degree of supervision. It'd be like letting SS Occultists broadcast on the BBC in the forties because their message is "spiritual".
If the Confederation allows all political or religious organisations that are not hostile to the state, why would it even be a question whether the Chancellor will allow religious diversity to spread?
We're not talking about the Roman Catholic Church here. I think the words "New Avalon" explain why there's a question.
Because the state isn't a thing. It's a social convention. Saying 'I think we should destroy the Confederation government' is not a threat directed at anyone.
Incorrect. The word "destroy" is defined as
"1, to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay."
"kill" "slay" "annihilate" "by rending, burning", that all sounds like a very specific threat of violence to me. Violence against whom? Obviously not against an ethereal social convention. No, it's is a threat against the individuals involved in the task of governance.
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1) The Confederation is justified in terms of the free choices of the people born within it. The fundamental ideological justification for the Confederation, as MadCapellan has put it, is the idea of choice.
Exactly, thank you. :)
2) In this topic the Confederation has been defended with the claim that it is not part of the Western liberal political tradition, and instead follows other values. (Confucianism was mentioned, as part of this wonderful mythical idea of 'Asian values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_values)', which presumably inspire the Confederation, in contrast to the individualist, selfish, culturally imperialist values of both the modern West and the three 'Western' states of BattleTech.) However, in following the above ideology of choice, the Confederation is not just part of the classical liberal tradition: it is, in fact, far more associated with that tradition than the other states or of Western civilisation in general.
Actually, I consider the Confederation very much in keeping with the family that founded it - an Eastern-Western fusion, in which the western understanding of the individual may freely choose to associate with an Eastern style society - or not. I agree, I think Hobbes would love the Confederation. 8)
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That all depends on if you think Hobbes liked Musolinni. Mussolini bragged about how good totalitarianism was for the people, and treated the state like the real person with the population being the artificial persons that it utilized for its purposes. Defective artificials were dealt with.
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2) In this topic the Confederation has been defended with the claim that it is not part of the Western liberal political tradition, and instead follows other values. (Confucianism was mentioned, as part of this wonderful mythical idea of 'Asian values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_values)', which presumably inspire the Confederation, in contrast to the individualist, selfish, culturally imperialist values of both the modern West and the three 'Western' states of BattleTech.) However, in following the above ideology of choice, the Confederation is not just part of the classical liberal tradition: it is, in fact, far more associated with that tradition than the other states or of Western civilisation in general.
I really enjoy this thread. I wanted to drop my two sense [sic] without living up to my old college nickname "BuzzKill." When I was in undergrad, my girlfriend was a Japanese national and I remember one time her drunk roommate (and her drunk friend who was with her) lightly criticized her for her oddly unAmerican college girl behavior. She had taking offense because my girlfriend, who was raised in a traditional Japaneses home, was very respectful and demure towards me. They thought I was being controlling or something (and I wasn't). And my girlfriend explained to them that we (i.e. Asians) do things differently and that it was wrong for them to judge our relationships based on their Western standards.
The reality is that those in Asian cultures simply see the world through different lenses than those in the West. While generalizations are inherently oversimplistic, traditionally theirs is a society that views the world in concentric circles---the "in-group, out-group" idea is used to explain it to those in the West. This concept exists fundamentally in the way their languages work (particularly Korean and Japanese). One always views others within the context of whether they're in your "group" or not, a concept that expands depending on context. So I may speak out-group to a friend, but he becomes my in-group when addressing a stranger, but the stranger becomes an in-group when speaking to a foreigner. One always views oneself as part of a greater thing, a greater family---the biggest being the people itself (or the "nation" or "state," but I really don't think it's limited to a body politic).
I remember the previous time the economy in South Korea began to struggle, the people were donating money to the government to help sustain it---including selling off their jewelry. It wasn't a tax hike. They just did it. That's how they tend to see themselves---as part of a greater thing which is their people. But as far as the idea of Asian culture itself, it's real, it's been around for a long time, and while Westerners may call it an excuse to permit totalitarianism, it's not (maybe it's that the culture creates a certain flavor of totalitarianism, as totalitarianism certainly isn't limited to those with Mongolian features).
The Capellans are a bit of a caricature (just as the Combine is a distorted caricature of samurai culture), but a fun one. And just like in real life, those who don't understand the paradigm (because they're so used to the classical liberal viewpoint), the culture is judged as defective, wrong. "You're supposed to be independent, selfishly guarding your personal rights and property, and always seeking your own advancement in society. <Sigh> The Capellans just don't get it---let's invade and 'liberate' them from themselves." It makes for a fun dynamic in the BT universe. I think the universe is far more interesting when you have competing states with their own views of right and wrong, and who believe in them fully, rather than the black-and-white good-guy-bad-guy dynamic that I think certain authors engendered in some of their writings.
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Do not mistake authoritarianism for totalitarianism.
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That all depends on if you think Hobbes liked Musolinni.
I'm failing to see the comparison. In the Capellan Confederation, individuals choose to participate in the State for their collective benefit. In Fascism, the State arbitrarily controls the individual for its own benefit. The idea of the "Social Contract" is self-evident in the Confederation. Musolinni'd have blown his nose on the social contract.
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*Yawn* MadCap, while your slavish defense of the Capellan state is really, really enthralling (get it ;)), please share with us all of your criticisms of the same in the hopes that someday it may become even better...you know, because the state is everything. All you free-willed, loyal citizens must have a lot of outside-the-box ideas on how to make the state better...right?
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All you free-willed, loyal citizens must have a lot of outside-the-box ideas on how to make the state better...right?
Eliminate the Liao bloodline?
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Do not mistake authoritarianism for totalitarianism.
Do not mistake preaching for open discussion.
*Yawn* MadCap, while your slavish defense of the Capellan state is really, really enthralling (get it ;)), please share with us all of your criticisms of the same in the hopes that someday it may become even better...you know, because the state is everything. All you free-willed, loyal citizens must have a lot of outside-the-box ideas on how to make the state better...right?
The vocabulary in that challenge was so loaded with negative connotations it deserves an award or something. ;D
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ok i only skimmed teh first couple pages here and have somethig to say
its not that Capellans or Draconians themselves are evil, its thier governments/politicans/leaders that are
the people that live within those nations simply dont know a better way
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The State doesn't demand orthodoxy, the Cappy posters do. Keep marching in lockstep, lads. :P
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*Yawn* MadCap, while your slavish defense of the Capellan state is really, really enthralling (get it ;)), please share with us all of your criticisms of the same in the hopes that someday it may become even better...you know, because the state is everything. All you free-willed, loyal citizens must have a lot of outside-the-box ideas on how to make the state better...right?
My only real criticism of the Confederation was a lack of laws prohibiting the direct abuse of servitors by Citizens, because I feel that physically harmng a servitor is behavior unbecoming of a Citizen and potentially detracting from the State, and an end to servitor ownership. Our Beloved Chancellor has taken steps to correct both complaints. Other than that, it simply becomes relatively minor suggestions, such as how to pursue certain partnerships with foreign entities, how we should focus our military forces, and things of that nature.
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I'm failing to see the comparison. In the Capellan Confederation, individuals choose to participate in the State for their collective benefit. In Fascism, the State arbitrarily controls the individual for its own benefit. The idea of the "Social Contract" is self-evident in the Confederation. Musolinni'd have blown his nose on the social contract.
MadCap since when hasn't the Confederation just not done what you just said fascism did? Its no mystery how so much of the population could be servitors while the Confederation was losing worlds in 3025.
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MadCap since when hasn't the Confederation just not done what you just said fascism did? Its no mystery how so much of the population could be servitors while the Confederation was losing worlds in 3025.
The Confederation does not force participation on anyone, and acts in the best interests of its Citizenry. The same can not be said for a Fascist state, where participation is forced and the interests of the ruler come first.
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That's right. 1 in 4 Capellans just choose to live in abject poverty as non-persons because there are so many benefits to it. If becoming a citizen is so easy, why do 25% of the people persist in servitorship? I propose it is either because the cost is too high, the benefits are too small, or the system is designed to ensure a given percentage of individuals remain as servitors. Your only other option is that 25% of all Capellans are so defective as to be both unwilling to contribute and too stupid to recognize the benefits of the right to own property.
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That's right. 1 in 4 Capellans just choose to live in abject poverty as non-persons because there are so many benefits to it. If becoming a citizen is so easy, why do 25% of the people persist in servitorship? I propose it is either because the cost is too high, the benefits are too small, or the system is designed to ensure a given percentage of individuals remain as servitors. Your only other option is that 25% of all Capellans are so defective as to be both unwilling to contribute and too stupid to recognize the benefits of the right to own property.
I wouldn't say so. Consider that one of the easiest and most common criminal penalties in the Confederation is the removal of Citizenship, and likewise that all inhabitants of a recently liberated world are generally not Citizens until they later prove themselves, to include the existing populations of most of the Liao Commonality, it's very easy to see how a sizable portion of the population could remain non-Citizens despite desiring it.
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In fact, and I am afraid this may sound equally petty, I am trying to think of a war the Confederation has ever won. Off the top of my head, I can think only of Operation Guerrero, the reclamation of St. Ives, and the defeat of Operation Sovereign Justice and corresponding push into the Capellan March. And yet: all the heavy-lifting in Guerrero was done by the Free Worlds League, against a distracted enemy; St. Ives was managed with the misappropriation of SLDF forces; and Sovereign Justice involved defeating a single march of a nation ravaged by civil war and which had still not completed rebuilding, while that nation was distracted with missing national leadership, a simultaneous Taurian invasion, and Blakist troops on their capital. That is: in every war I can think of in which the Confederation won, there were severe extenuating circumstances.
Sorry to say this, but if the Confederation system of government was ideally suited to survival, and thus, implicitly, to military success, the Confederation would not be so consistently unsuccessful in war.
With respect to Operation Guerrero and the Capellan Civil war, I freely admit that both were facilitated (or at least started) by outside aid attributable to the political brilliance of our God-King Emperor and Kwisatz Haderach, Sun-Tzu Liao [notworthy].
Sovereign Justice/Thunderstrike on the other hand was on paper a militarily even match up, since the Taurian and Blakist distractions you cited only meant that the AFFS could not count on overwhelming numerical superiority. The CCAF was able to commit 19 regiments and Hasek forces 22 (including Jie Fang Legion and 2nd Janissaries), taking into account that AFFS formations are usually larger but suffered damage during the FCCW and that Capellan Warrior Houses are not full regiments. Overall, despite the loss of regiments like the 15th Dracon, WH Ijori, 3rd CDF, and 2nd CRC, the CCAF came out way ahead in the exchange, especially considering that they were still technically outnumbered.
I would agree that ideology and military success are not necessarily related since the Capellan way of life existed long before Sun-Tzu Liao's reign through all the CC's losses during the Succession Wars. To what then, would we account for the superior performance during Sovereign Justice/Thunderstrike? To Sun-Tzu Liao himself of course and his superior mastery of the power of Battle Meditation which allowed him to turn the tide against Davionist invaders. [drool]
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I wouldn't say so. Consider that one of the easiest and most common criminal penalties in the Confederation is the removal of Citizenship, and likewise that all inhabitants of a recently liberated world are generally not Citizens until they later prove themselves, to include the existing populations of most of the Liao Commonality, it's very easy to see how a sizable portion of the population could remain non-Citizens despite desiring it.
Not really. Historically, what proportion of Liao worlds are recently conquered? Few to none. Certainly not enough to account for 25% of the population, especially if all 1-6 billion residents of a planet are truly non-contributing to the state.
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How many warships were involved in Thunderstrike again?
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1 destroyer which got destroyed over New Syrtis. Still, fair trade for Kathil and Talon [rockon]
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To Sun-Tzu Liao himself of course and his superior mastery of the power of Battle Meditation which allowed him to turn the tide against Davionist invaders. [drool]
I'm re-imagining the battle scenes from Golden Age of the Sith right now:-
(http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/2/29/Bkir.jpg)
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Not really. Historically, what proportion of Liao worlds are recently conquered? Few to none.
We really only have an idea of how common Servitors are in the post-3025 time period. Most of the populace of the Liao Commonality is probably servitors, as those worlds are all newly recently liberated and anyone who had already earned citizenship there would be a minimimum of between 50-60 years old.
Certainly not enough to account for 25% of the population, especially if all 1-6 billion residents of a planet are truly non-contributing to the state.
Easily enough to account for all the criminals, lazy punks, and inhabitants of the newly liberated worlds. If you take into account that 3.1% of the U.S. populace is either in jail, prison or on probation, and that value does not include former offenders, it's a very easy value to understand.
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We really only have an idea of how common Servitors are in the post-3025 time period. Most of the populace of the Liao Commonality is probably servitors, as those worlds are all newly recently liberated and anyone who had already earned citizenship there would be a minimimum of between 50-60 years old.
But it's so easy to opt in....unless the entire populations of those worlds were too lazy to sign up for community service and sign the local loyalty oath. And even if you presume this, you come back to your original conundrum. You now have worlds that are populated solely by selfish, disinterested, and unproductive slime, so one wonders how they manage to survive politically. Except one doesn't, because the argument that these characteristics are indicative of servitors as a class is absurd on this face, as it is on so many others.
Easily enough to account for all the criminals, lazy punks, and inhabitants of the newly liberated worlds. If you take into account that 3.1% of the U.S. populace is either in jail, prison or on probation, and that value does not include former offenders, it's a very easy value to understand.
That's not even close to explaining those numbers. 3.1% is pushing the resources of the United States. To reach the 25% of the population in the US, for example, you'd need to incarcerate or place on probation the equivalent of the combined populations of California, Texas, and New York. Neither of us is an economist, but I think we both realize that the effects of doing so would be catastrophic, at best.
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1 destroyer which got destroyed over New Syrtis. Still, fair trade for Kathil and Talon [rockon]
How many participated in total? How many battles were won off their orbital bombardment? Were nuclear weapons also involved?
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How many participated in total? How many battles were won off their orbital bombardment? Were nuclear weapons also involved?
Just 1 was mentioned, the one of the Impavido destroyed at New Syrtis. If there was participation by another warship in either portion of the operation it wasn't mentioned. I don't believe there was any orbital bombardment mentioned during the CC vs. FS conflict.
IIRC, the closest thing would be when the Hustaing Warriors were tangling with the 1st FSAC on some planet, a WOB warship dropped by and bombarded both units, but that might have been later on in the Jihad.
The only use of nukes against the FS was by the Blackwind Lancers on Talon. I suppose that was surprising since unrepentant terrorist organizations are oftentimes moral, trustworthy, and loyal. (insert sarcasm here).
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We really only have an idea of how common Servitors are in the post-3025 time period. Most of the populace of the Liao Commonality is probably servitors, as those worlds are all newly recently liberated and anyone who had already earned citizenship there would be a minimimum of between 50-60 years old.
But it's so easy to opt in....unless the entire populations of those worlds were too lazy to sign up for community service and sign the local loyalty oath. And even if you presume this, you come back to your original conundrum. You now have worlds that are populated solely by selfish, disinterested, and unproductive slime, so one wonders how they manage to survive politically. Except one doesn't, because the argument that these characteristics are indicative of servitors as a class is absurd on this face, as it is on so many others.
It takes time to become a Citizen. The Confederation cannot willy-nilly let all of the native inhabitants of a newly liberated Confederation planet to become citizens overnight---many of them could be Fedrat insurrectionists. They have to show their value to the state and their desire to become citizens. Simply asserting oneself as, say, the head of a Chamber of Commerce means nothing---is that head of the Chamber of Commerce willing to contribute to the good of all Capellan peoples? Over time, many if not most of the people of these reclaimed worlds will likely become Citizens once they understand the benefit of the reciprocity between the Capellan and the Confederation and earn their place in society.
It is easy to complain about the servitor as they are the most visible thing to complain about, but all of the Successor States have their population that, for whatever reason, is viewed as disadvantaged or disenfranchised. The difference is that in the Confederation, such persons (if willing) can pull themselves out---not by blood or by money or by luck, but by work.
But it's good that we have this dialogue so you can see the wisdom of the Chancellor's ways and the ways of the Confederation.
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/Battletech/Liao-Sun-Tzu-1.jpg)
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It's interesting to note that all the pro-Capellan arguments have to be made "in-character".
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I would agree that ideology and military success are not necessarily related since the Capellan way of life existed long before Sun-Tzu Liao's reign through all the CC's losses during the Succession Wars. To what then, would we account for the superior performance during Sovereign Justice/Thunderstrike? To Sun-Tzu Liao himself of course and his superior mastery of the power of Battle Meditation which allowed him to turn the tide against Davionist invaders. [drool]
Oh, "Battle Meditation"... You mean where he got so desperate to stem the Davion Tide he ordered the Capellan navy to bombard his own Capital then claimed it was the Suns?
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It's interesting to note that all the pro-Capellan arguments have to be made "in-character".
I can well imagine this being sung in the Outback....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ&feature=player_detailpage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ&feature=player_detailpage)
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This machine kills fascists.
(http://mechacore.irongamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/falconer.jpg)
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I thought it killed Falcons? :P
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A fascist in a bird beak mask is still a fascist. 8)
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It's interesting to note that all the pro-Capellan arguments have to be made "in-character".
And it's interesting to note that BattleTech fans need "facists" to kill in order to make themselves feel better.
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For me, they just need to be wearing a different coat...but the same coat will do if need be.
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And it's interesting to note that BattleTech fans need "facists" to kill in order to make themselves feel better.
It's your fellow Capellan fan's rhetoric about the Confederation's political system that has marked it as sitting in fascist part of the political spectrum. And given that's a political system with a dark history and opposes some of the fundamental freedoms most of us 'westerners' hold dear, it is any wonder a lot of us find it deeply ironic that the pro-Capellan stance in this thread boils down to:
The Capellans are not evil, they're facsist.
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A fascist in a bird beak mask is still a fascist. 8)
Unless they're Hawkman:-
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1miFGVAkfdasGK686ecd5m1GHdfD9kUM4VLHH_ldmFQcwrZeu)
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And it's interesting to note that BattleTech fans need "facists" to kill in order to make themselves feel better.
It's your fellow Capellan fan's rhetoric about the Confederation's political system that has marked it as sitting in fascist part of the political spectrum. And given that's a political system with a dark history and opposes some of the fundamental freedoms most of us 'westerners' hold dear, it is any wonder a lot of us find it deeply ironic that the pro-Capellan stance in this thread boils down to:
The Capellans are not evil, they're facsist.
My observation was regarding the fervor with which many forum members jumped on this thread to denounce the Capellan Confederation as a faction that doesn't deserve to exist. It was almost like their own feelings would have been hurt should this thread continue discussion--it was like their concepts of right and wrong were in jeopardy. And, well, they weren't really.
The question I present to this thread in the hereafter is: Why do you all need the Capellan Confederation to shoot at? Why play BattleTech to chase down some phantom of a feeling that some bunch of guys in green are too monstrous to belong in this fictional world? Is there some sort of Cold War-like sentiment deep down in anti-Capellan fans that needs to be relieved through argument? My concern is that it would seem quite a few statements seen here have bordered on bigotry in various respects.
Please share your thoughts and your feelings, because really--it would help me greatly to be able to understand you all better.
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Obviously, I can't speak for other people but as a matter of fact I don't play as a Davion to shoot at Capellans, I play Davion because I like the faction's History and mech selection.
To me, other factions are just targets. I've even play Davion vs Davion frequently because I and my regular opponent both typically use Davion forces and enjoy playing against each other.
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Oh, boy, quite a lot to respond to now...
I guess I simply have to disagree. The overall percentage of the Confederation's wealth, as in the hands of servitors, is negligible. Similarly, the tasks as performed by servitors could equally be performed by both Citizens and aspiring Citizens.
And in return, I must simply disagree as well. The argument about the servitors has been picked up by a few other posters now, so I see no real need to continue it. The point has thoroughly been made, and I daresay that those who will be convinced by it have already been convinced by it; and everyone else will not be convinced at all.
I'm sure that you assume the Capellan Star Scouts are a government institution, as you would everything else. The simple fact of the matter is that the Capellan Confederaiton is very much a collectivist society. You're going to find it pretty hard to separate anything from the State - the State is everything.
I do assume that about the Star Scouts. Judging from your response here, I'm right to do so. It seems that private institutions in the Confederation are much rarer than they are in other states.
Most nations require oaths of allegience from new Citizens. This is no unique Capellan trait. Why should the Capellan Confederation admit someone who intends disloyalty towards it? I don't want spies and anarchists in my community or family, do you?
Citizenship is contingent on an oath to obey the Chancellor. To be specific an oath not to question the dictates of the Chancellor.
You don't see a difference there?
The State requires loyalty, which is not the same thing as "political orthodoxy". Orthodoxy implies that your views do not deviate with a set standard, the opposite of heresy. Loyalty simply means that you act at all times in support of the State. One can support the State in unorthodox ways, something which is not simply tolerated, but encouraged by Our Beloved Chancellor.
You have said before that Sun-Tzu encourages productive dialogue, and new ideas and criticisms that might improve the Confederation. This seems to me to be in strong tension with a loyalty oath that includes a promise not to question the dictates of the Chancellor.
To give a historical parallel, it rather reminds me of the Hundred Flowers, in Maoist China. Speak up! Let a hundred schools of thought contend! Criticise the state and suggest ways to improve it! But if you dare suggest radical reform or offer any criticism of Our Glorious Leader -
The Capellan Confederation is the youngest of the five Great Houses, and the smallest and weakest to begin with. Just by the numbers, it should have ceased to exist years ago. The fact that we haven't and have infact fought back and restored many of our worlds to our control is proof positive of the effectiveness of the Capellan government.
Was the Fourth Succession War proof positive of the effectiveness of the government of the Federated Suns?
Please, pay the Confederation to ship all our servitors to you, you would have my gratitude. The last thing we need on our worlds is all this dead weight. I have yet to be appraised of any essential task which they perform, as anything they can do is also a task which could be performed by the honorable Commonality.
For what it's worth, if it were possible without widespread economic devastation, I would be quite happy for the entire servitor population of the Confederation to emigrate.
All men have free will. There is no such thing as "no choice", simply choices you don't like. Tough. Life is full of choices we don't like. I would like for the Davions to stop selfishly invading our nation and justifying their killing and theft as "freedom".
That in no sense justifies creating and inflicting unjust choices on a populace.
The Davions could easily make a parallel argument, of course. You have choices: become a citizen of the Federated Suns (or Commonwealth, depending on time), or suffer military invasion. Don't like it? Tough. That is the choice. Life is full of unpleasant choices.
Less focus on civil responsiblity will lead to less of a sense of duty to one's community, and ultimately fewer Citizens, not a thing we need.
Do you seriously think that people become Capellan citizens out of a genuine sense of duty to the Confederation; or do they do it simply because they want the Confederation to treat them like human beings, with all their natural rights?
Incorrect. The word "destroy" is defined as
"1, to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay."
"kill" "slay" "annihilate" "by rending, burning", that all sounds like a very specific threat of violence to me. Violence against whom? Obviously not against an ethereal social convention. No, it's is a threat against the individuals involved in the task of governance.
Your definition is fine. 'Destroying' the Confederation means putting an end to (as in definition two) a certain arrangement of social and political institutions.
That is not violence directed at anyone. That is not a threat aimed at any real person or collection of persons.
Actually, I consider the Confederation very much in keeping with the family that founded it - an Eastern-Western fusion, in which the western understanding of the individual may freely choose to associate with an Eastern style society - or not. I agree, I think Hobbes would love the Confederation.
On consideration I actually think the 'easternness' of the Confederation is overstated. This is probably the fault of Sun-Tzu and the ideology of Han racial/cultural superiority he encouraged, but there you go. The philosophical underpinnings of the Confederation state, as far as I can tell, are thoroughly Western.
I really enjoy this thread. I wanted to drop my two sense [sic] without living up to my old college nickname "BuzzKill." When I was in undergrad, my girlfriend was a Japanese national and I remember one time her drunk roommate (and her drunk friend who was with her) lightly criticized her for her oddly unAmerican college girl behavior. She had taking offense because my girlfriend, who was raised in a traditional Japaneses home, was very respectful and demure towards me. They thought I was being controlling or something (and I wasn't). And my girlfriend explained to them that we (i.e. Asians) do things differently and that it was wrong for them to judge our relationships based on their Western standards.
Not to make an issue out of that: but in all honesty, that's just because Japan is still a much more patriarchal culture than other Western nations. Japanese feminism lags considerably behind that of other developed nations. (Not that the other nations of the West are beyond criticism, of course: they are certainly not.) While every culture still has some gendered ideals, those ideals in Japanese culture are stricter than in the West, especially when it comes to female displays of submission.
At any rate, I'm not sure what the relevance of that to the Confederation is.
The Capellans are a bit of a caricature (just as the Combine is a distorted caricature of samurai culture), but a fun one. And just like in real life, those who don't understand the paradigm (because they're so used to the classical liberal viewpoint), the culture is judged as defective, wrong. "You're supposed to be independent, selfishly guarding your personal rights and property, and always seeking your own advancement in society. <Sigh> The Capellans just don't get it---let's invade and 'liberate' them from themselves."
Er... in the post you were responding to, I argued that the Confederation is actually a product of the classical liberal viewpoint, and in fact it is more consonant with that philosophy than the other states of BattleTech. If we look at MadCapellan's arguments, the focus on the rational autonomy of every human being, the social contract as free choice, the attempt to precisely delineate the obligations of civil society towards its constituents... these are hallmarks of classical liberal political philosophy. (That is, of course, not the only influence on the Confederation. Trite as it is, one must mention Marx and Lenin.)
Elias Jung Liao may been half-Nepalese, but the other half was English, and his education was thoroughly Western. The Liao family itself is not a traditionally Chinese one.
It's your fellow Capellan fan's rhetoric about the Confederation's political system that has marked it as sitting in fascist part of the political spectrum.
Is the Confederation fascist?
Perhaps.
Let's run through the evidence. What is fascism? And how does the Confederation compare?
Fascism is actually a very specific type of anti-democratic movement. Some of you are probably familiar with Eco's fourteen points (http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html) that define fascism.
Now, some of these describe the Confederation very well. Sun-Tzu reintroduced the cult of tradition. The rejection of modernism comes into play when the ancient Han way of life is idealised, not to mention the popular rhetoric that the will of the Capellan people and their boundless capacity for sacrifice will overcome the technological edges of their enemies. (cf. HB:HD, p. 20: "The Confederation wasn't afraid to sacrifice its own citizens to spite its enemies. And ever since, it has continued to do just that. "We're not strong enough to deal with our military difficulties? No problem. We'll just keep throwing Capellan citizens into the fire until it's quenched." ...they've been self-destructive in hopes of making their enemies think they're not worth the cost. To anyone.") Note that this is not the inevitable situation of a small state facing a materially superior foe: compare the Free Rasalhague Republic. There's actually an intriguing similarity here to the ideology of the kamikaze pilots in the Second World War: as American industrial superiority made itself known, kamikaze was seen for a way for the moral superiority and dedication of the yamato people to express itself. The Japanese capability for self-sacrifice was supposed to counter the edge provided by sheer American industry. It's surprisingly similar to the Confederation's position.
Moving on, the Confederation follows point seven: it relies on cultivating a siege mentality among the population and it carries the 'obsession with a plot' to the hilt. There is an idea that the other nations of the Sphere share a determinedly anti-Capellan agenda, expressed perfectly in Dawn of the Jihad (p. 127) when the Capellan representative rants: "Now we see the bias inherent in the system! A deliberate and concerted effort to forever paint the Confederation with a black brush, ignoring four decades of evidence that we fight only to reclaim what is ours, taken from us by force against the overwhelming will of the Capellan people who take pride in their Chancellor and in their nation, and who will forever resist any effort by outside terrorists - whether cloaked in the robes of nobility or neutrality - to divide us against each other for no other reason than a political smokescreen for aggressive military action that benefits only -
What else? Point ten: the Confederation advocates a popular elitism of this precise sort. Capellan citizens are superior to other people because they and only they have sacrificed unselfishly for the Greater Humanity (which of course is identified with the Capellan state; HLSB p. 64). Every person ought to be a member of the party: that is, a citizen. Further, this follows point thirteen. The citizen body constitutes a selective populism. Only the people prepared to pledge loyalty to the state count as having a say in the state, and even they are pledging loyalty to a common will, guided and arbitrated by a chosen leader - the Chancellor - who serves as the 'Voice of the People'.
So: there are strong similarities between the Capellan Confederation and fascist regimes.
But there's one very important aspect missing, and this is one of the most important aspects of fascism. That is the cult of the military. See Eco's point three especially. Does the Confederation exalt the military? One could argue about the warrior houses, but I am unsure. Certainly if the Confederation were capable of large-scale military success I expect it would get more militaristic. Still, for now, I am unsure.
In BattleTech... I think the Draconis Combine is definitely fascist. That much is obvious, to even the laziest of observers. The Confederation is certainly very fascist-like.
Honestly, though, at this point I don't feel the label is all that important. The Confederation satisfies so many of Eco's points that it is, in short, close enough.
My observation was regarding the fervor with which many forum members jumped on this thread to denounce the Capellan Confederation as a faction that doesn't deserve to exist. It was almost like their own feelings would have been hurt should this thread continue discussion--it was like their concepts of right and wrong were in jeopardy. And, well, they weren't really.
The question I present to this thread in the hereafter is: Why do you all need the Capellan Confederation to shoot at? Why play BattleTech to chase down some phantom of a feeling that some bunch of guys in green are too monstrous to belong in this fictional world? Is there some sort of Cold War-like sentiment deep down in anti-Capellan fans that needs to be relieved through argument? My concern is that it would seem quite a few statements seen here have bordered on bigotry in various respects.
Please share your thoughts and your feelings, because really--it would help me greatly to be able to understand you all better.
Are you really curious?
It's because the Capellans are great bad guys.
That's pretty much it. They're totalitarian and their governing ideology is evil, but they're not pointlessly or randomly evil. They are complex. I like using them in games and in plots because they are chilling and calculating and oppressive, but they are all of these things in an interesting way. The very effort that Capellan posters here have gone to in order to justify and defend the Confederation is testament to how well thought out they are. In short: I need the Capellan Confederation to shoot at because Capellans are fun to shoot at.
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But it's so easy to opt in....unless the entire populations of those worlds were too lazy to sign up for community service and sign the local loyalty oath.
It's far easier to become a Citizen as a young person than as an adult. There's a mandatory five year waiting period for people on newly liberated worlds anyway.
That's not even close to explaining those numbers. 3.1% is pushing the resources of the United States. To reach the 25% of the population in the US, for example, you'd need to incarcerate or place on probation the equivalent of the combined populations of California, Texas, and New York. Neither of us is an economist, but I think we both realize that the effects of doing so would be catastrophic, at best.
Those are the individuals currently incarcerated. All those who have ever been incarcerated is much higher. Scary, yes? Yet as servitors, they don't cost the State a diime. Great economics. 9% Criminals+9% new blood+7% lazy punks pretty easily gets you to the value you're looking for in a believable fashion.
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Citizenship is contingent on an oath to obey the Chancellor. To be specific an oath not to question the dictates of the Chancellor.
You don't see a difference there?
Not really. Most nations require their citizens to obey their rulers on threat of law.
Was the Fourth Succession War proof positive of the effectiveness of the government of the Federated Suns?
It was proof positive that when you outnumber your enemy by a factor of five to one you can really do a lot of damage.
The Davions could easily make a parallel argument, of course. You have choices: become a citizen of the Federated Suns (or Commonwealth, depending on time), or suffer military invasion. Don't like it? Tough. That is the choice. Life is full of unpleasant choices.
Citizenship is a take it or leave it offer. As an example, "would you like some chocolate?" The suggestion you made came with a threat of physical harm. For comparison, "eat this chocolate or I'll bash your face in." I'd consider that very different in nature from the first statement.
Do you seriously think that people become Capellan citizens out of a genuine sense of duty to the Confederation; or do they do it simply because they want the Confederation to treat them like human beings, with all their natural rights?
Both.
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Not really. Most nations require their citizens to obey their rulers on threat of law.
Questioning and criticising the government does not constitute disloyalty.
It was proof positive that when you outnumber your enemy by a factor of five to one you can really do a lot of damage.
And a whole list of other factors that helped the Federated Suns succeed there: complete tactical surprise, spies at the highest levels of the Capellan government, feeding Maximillian Liao false information via Michael Hasek-Davion, the faulty myomer trick in Capellan 'mechs, reorganised RCTs and substantially superior strategic doctrine, appeal to lower-ranking Capellan leaders such as Pavel Ridzik and Candace Liao to avoid unnecessary battles, and probably quite a few other things I'm missing.
At any rate, what was the point? The success of the Federated Suns in that war is attributable to a large number of historical factors other than the simple structure of the Federated Suns government. But isn't the same true of the Confederation's survival in the Succession Wars?
Citizenship is a take it or leave it offer. As an example, "would you like some chocolate?" The suggestion you made came with a threat of physical harm. For comparison, "eat this chocolate or I'll bash your face in." I'd consider that very different in nature from the first statement.
The Capellan Confederation has created a set of social circumstances where its inhabitants face a stark choice between citizenship (and all associated political indoctrination), or servitorship (and corresponding social disadvantages). That is to say, it has artificially created a situation where its people are placed in a terrible situation - that of being a servitor - and the only way out is to accede to the demands of citizenship.
Both.
You seem to have an incredible amount of confidence in the ability of the Capellan education system to indoctrinate its students.
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Questioning and criticising the government does not constitute disloyalty.
I've never seen any evidence that questioing or criticising the government is considered disloyalty under Sun-Tzu Liao. On the contrary, Zang-jiang-jun Zahn holds command over the entire CCAF precisely because he criticized his superiors. I'd say it's actively encouraged.
The Capellan Confederation has created a set of social circumstances where its inhabitants face a stark choice between citizenship (and all associated political indoctrination), or servitorship (and corresponding social disadvantages). That is to say, it has artificially created a situation where its people are placed in a terrible situation - that of being a servitor - and the only way out is to accede to the demands of citizenship.
Government is an artificial construct. The Confederation did not create or dictate the State of Nature any more than the Haseks mandated New Syrtis be cold.
You seem to have an incredible amount of confidence in the ability of the Capellan education system to indoctrinate its students.
It's a difference in cultural outlook I have "faith" in, not education.
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Why do you all need the Capellan Confederation to shoot at?
Because PeaceTech is boooooooooring.
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I've never seen any evidence that questioing or criticising the government is considered disloyalty under Sun-Tzu Liao. On the contrary, Zang-jiang-jun Zahn holds command over the entire CCAF precisely because he criticized his superiors. I'd say it's actively encouraged.
And yet, reading from the plain text of The Killing Fields and Threads of Ambition, many cases in which Zahn questions Sun-Tzu during the St. Ives conflict he does so only very, very obliquely, and multiple times Sun-Tzu has to reign in his first response, which is to lash out at Zahn for daring to question past what Sun-Tzu considers appropriate. In fact, on more than one occasion it's mentioned that Zahn's criticism and/or questioning is tolerated solely because he is mostly if not entirely successful as the ranking Capellan military officer.
It's much more accurate to state that criticism is tolerated by individuals deemed vital to the state or who are proven ultimately correct, a condition vanishingly rare in a society that prizes the collective over the individual - very few people being truly irreplaceable under such a paradigm - and often in order to be proven correct time has to pass, which in the case of a reactionary government who regularly uses tactics against the citizenry that can be at best described as heavy handed, often the individual has already suffered any consequences for criticism before they've been proven ultimately right in that criticism, assuming it's even remembered by the time that situation comes to pass.
I find the Confederation an interesting dichotomy that has more in common with an idea of a utopia executed under feudalism, conjoining ideas about social contract as previously described with a ruling class.
It's fascinating, but I doubt seriously it would ever really function. The basic precepts are diametrically opposed to each other. I can see a single great leader being above the common man, but how do you fit lesser nobility (i.e. sword nobility) into the give everything to the state mentality? It simply doesn't fit, like a splinter in a finger.
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Just 1 was mentioned, the one of the Impavido destroyed at New Syrtis. If there was participation by another warship in either portion of the operation it wasn't mentioned. I don't believe there was any orbital bombardment mentioned during the CC vs. FS conflict.
IIRC, the closest thing would be when the Hustaing Warriors were tangling with the 1st FSAC on some planet, a WOB warship dropped by and bombarded both units, but that might have been later on in the Jihad.
The only use of nukes against the FS was by the Blackwind Lancers on Talon. I suppose that was surprising since unrepentant terrorist organizations are oftentimes moral, trustworthy, and loyal. (insert sarcasm here).
What is your opinion on the veracity of this article?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation:_Thunderstrike
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In BattleTech... I think the Draconis Combine is definitely fascist. That much is obvious, to even the laziest of observers. The Confederation is certainly very fascist-like.
I would actually consider the Confederation to be more fascist-like than the DC. I am not a huge fan of Eco's definition. The key component in fascism is the central role of a heavily nationalistic state in regulating the economy and other social relations. The distinction between citizens and non-citizens is related to its strongly nationalistic flavor. Fascism can be seen as a right-wing reaction to the emergence and influence of Marxism/Communism during the first half of the 20th century. Both ideologies emphasize thinking in terms of collectivity, but whereas Marxists believed in the ultimate overthrow of the state and national identity in favor of a universal collective identity, fascists emphasized a strongly centralized one-party state organized around a strong national identity as the end goal.
By that definition, the CC is clearly not only fascist-like, but archetypically fascist, and even more so since the Xin Sheng movement. The DC on the other hand seems to me to be much more feudal in its practices. Power is dispersed from the Coordinator to regional Warlords and aside from rooting out suspicious behavior and encouraging productivity, local populations seem to be largely ignored by those at the top. To use the distinction made by a well-known French philosopher, in the Draconis Combine they "punish" but in the Capellan Confederation, they "discipline." It is also probably worth noting that such a distinction makes the Capellan Confederation the only true modern state in the Inner Sphere.
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It's your fellow Capellan fan's rhetoric about the Confederation's political system that has marked it as sitting in fascist part of the political spectrum. And given that's a political system with a dark history and opposes some of the fundamental freedoms most of us 'westerners' hold dear, it is any wonder a lot of us find it deeply ironic that the pro-Capellan stance in this thread boils down to:
The Capellans are not evil, they're facsist.
My observation was regarding the fervor with which many forum members jumped on this thread to denounce the Capellan Confederation as a faction that doesn't deserve to exist. It was almost like their own feelings would have been hurt should this thread continue discussion--it was like their concepts of right and wrong were in jeopardy. And, well, they weren't really.
The question I present to this thread in the hereafter is: Why do you all need the Capellan Confederation to shoot at? Why play BattleTech to chase down some phantom of a feeling that some bunch of guys in green are too monstrous to belong in this fictional world? Is there some sort of Cold War-like sentiment deep down in anti-Capellan fans that needs to be relieved through argument? My concern is that it would seem quite a few statements seen here have bordered on bigotry in various respects.
Please share your thoughts and your feelings, because really--it would help me greatly to be able to understand you all better.
I think that the reason many come into this thread to argue that the Capellans are evil (not necessarily that they should not exist) is due to the strength of the CapCon's defenders in this thread. It makes for an interesting argument only when the argument is laid out creatively and intelligently from both sides. Where I may disagree with, say, MadCapellan (who has carried the lion's share of the defense,) his arguments are always well laid out and interesting, which makes good reading, which draws more people into it
Truth to tell, the Capellans on this board argue their existence better than any other faction. And always with far more fervor. Dracs can't compare; Elsies don't compaire, not even my Davonistas come close. (And Leaguers don't seem to try.)
They may well be nuts, but I love 'em all.
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It's interesting to note that all the pro-Capellan arguments have to be made "in-character".
Would you make these arguments outta character?
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What is your opinion on the veracity of this article?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation:_Thunderstrike
It's mostly accurate, 2nd Janissaries had defected to Hasek, but I stand corrected on the role of warships. Nonetheless, factoring in the destruction of 2 regiments by orbital bombardment and 1 by terrorist attack, you still get a 19 vs 19 match up in terms of ground troops which are even odds.
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It's far easier to become a Citizen as a young person than as an adult. There's a mandatory five year waiting period for people on newly liberated worlds anyway.
A fact which, in and of itself, refutes the argument that servitors are non-productive layabouts.
Those are the individuals currently incarcerated. All those who have ever been incarcerated is much higher. Scary, yes? Yet as servitors, they don't cost the State a diime. Great economics. 9% Criminals+9% new blood+7% lazy punks pretty easily gets you to the value you're looking for in a believable fashion.
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As per the HLHB, servitorship is a crime reserved for crimes against caste and community. It is not a punishment laid against 'criminals'. 'New Blood' as you call it, would comprise virtually no one in the older worlds, but would include virtually the entire populations of newly integrated worlds. If, indeed, the entire Liao Commonality is comprised of servitors who contribute nothing, it's hard to imagine how they function on anything beyond the starvation level. One of these things must not be true. Either these people are not all servitors, or all servitors are not worthless layabouts who contribute nothing to the CapCon. In fact, by your argument, the vast majority of them would not be such. It's a logical paradox that both of these are true.
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The question I present to this thread in the hereafter is: Why do you all need the Capellan Confederation to shoot at? Why play BattleTech to chase down some phantom of a feeling that some bunch of guys in green are too monstrous to belong in this fictional world? Is there some sort of Cold War-like sentiment deep down in anti-Capellan fans that needs to be relieved through argument? My concern is that it would seem quite a few statements seen here have bordered on bigotry in various respects.
Please share your thoughts and your feelings, because really--it would help me greatly to be able to understand you all better.
I argue against the CapCon because I find arguing with some of its fans interesting. I don't have a problem with people being fans of a fascist state like the CapCon. I think there's a lot to enjoy about it. I myself am a fan of a state that frequently invades its neighbors under the thinnest of justifications. I do think it's rather silly to insist that state is something it is patently not. I think some people have a hard time accepting that something they like might be a black hat within the context of real life, and so attempt to justify their fanhood in ways that deny the nature of that fictional state.
I have a newsflash for people. Ever successor state has killed billions of people out of sheer naked aggression and avarice. None of them are representative democracies, and they all essentially ignore what many of us consider the basic human rights to which many of believe people are entitled as a matter of course. If you can't accept that about your favorite faction, you need to find another game, or ignore canon entirely.
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Would you make these arguments outta character?
I note the "against" arguments are out of character, real world arguments. The "pro-Capellan" position is presented by people make-believing they're actually Capellan, probably because it's totally indefensible to make an out-of-character argument for the CC.
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I note the "against" arguments are out of character, real world arguments. The "pro-Capellan" position is presented by people make-believing they're actually Capellan, probably because it's totally indefensible to make an out-of-character argument for the CC.
You know, there are people out there who actually believe that they themselves are vampires. I don't see any possible way to logically argue how someone can happen be a vampire in the real world. Yet those people still exist.
By strawman comparison, it kind of makes people who put "Capellan" values into their out-of-character life seem a little more tame. Just wanted to throw that out there, even if it doesn't mean anything.
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... or all servitors are not worthless layabouts who contribute nothing to the CapCon.
We should all know by now, that this is, essentially, the case:- "Servitors perform society’s mundane tasks, those that are necessary but that other Capellans are unwilling or disinclined to do." [src: Handbook: House Liao pg. 116]
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We should all know by now, that this is, essentially, the case:- "Servitors perform society’s mundane tasks, those that are necessary but that other Capellans are unwilling or disinclined to do." [src: Handbook: House Liao pg. 116]
I would think that servitors perform tasks like keeping public parks in good order, road paving, garbage collector, etc. How to find projects that require 25% of the population, though...the numbers are simply absurd.
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Truth to tell, the Capellans on this board argue their existence better than any other faction. And always with far more fervor. Dracs can't compare; Elsies don't compaire, not even my Davonistas come close. (And Leaguers don't seem to try.)
Is that a criticism of the rest of us?
Would you make these arguments outta character?
I've been arguing out of character, haven't I?
We should all know by now, that this is, essentially, the case:- "Servitors perform society’s mundane tasks, those that are necessary but that other Capellans are unwilling or disinclined to do." [src: Handbook: House Liao pg. 116]
As I quoted myself, starting this aspect of the debate.
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I would think that servitors perform tasks like keeping public parks in good order, road paving, garbage collector, etc. How to find projects that require 25% of the population, though...the numbers are simply absurd.
Perhaps. Is the 25% number taken from one singular planet's population, or the entire Confederation as a whole?
[I'm now away from my books, so I can't check up on this.]
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A fact which, in and of itself, refutes the argument that servitors are non-productive layabouts.
Yes, but that situation is rather specific to a certain time and place, not to the overall ideal of Capellan community. It takes a while to sort everything out after you've had wild sheep and Davions running about the house for decades.
As per the HLHB, servitorship is a crime reserved for crimes against caste and community.
It is not a punishment laid against 'criminals'.
What you've written doesn't make any sense, but I take it you mean it is a "punishment" for crimes against caste and community. Indeed. It's a serious punishment for a serious crime. You don't get it for parking tickets, but you don't end up on probation for it generally, either.
'New Blood' as you call it, would comprise virtually no one in the older worlds, but would include virtually the entire populations of newly integrated worlds. If, indeed, the entire Liao Commonality is comprised of servitors who contribute nothing, it's hard to imagine how they function on anything beyond the starvation level. One of these things must not be true. Either these people are not all servitors, or all servitors are not worthless layabouts who contribute nothing to the CapCon. In fact, by your argument, the vast majority of them would not be such. It's a logical paradox that both of these are true.
Don't be silly, obviously the Liao Commonality operates significantly differently from the rest of the Confederation given it's newly liberated status.
Perhaps. Is the 25% number taken from one singular planet's population, or the entire Confederation as a whole?
[I'm now away from my books, so I can't check up on this.]
No, it's taken from my best guess estimate of 20-30% taken from numerous sources, from the Battletech RPG, to extapolations from wealth data, to fictional depictions and population values given on INN. It's probably the best ballpark we're going to get for the forseeable future.
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Is that a criticism of the rest of us?
It may be a comment on how Capellan fans have to persuade themselves harder. Or it could be a comment on how emotionally attached they are to the faction, in-character or "i am a vampire" out-of-character.
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So you claim League fans have no spirit?
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No, it's taken from my best guess estimate of 20-30% taken from numerous sources, from the Battletech RPG, to extapolations from wealth data, to fictional depictions and population values given on INN. It's probably the best ballpark we're going to get for the forseeable future.
So it's a rough estimate of the entire population of servitors across the Confederation as a whole?
Okay. I suppose, given the extraordinarily large numbers of public works and infrastructure likely on every Capellan world in every Commonality, the 25% number *could* be as close-to-accurate as we can manage for the estimate of the servitors assigned to maintenance.
...
Ideally, I would expect that percentage to wax and wane drastically, as planetary rebellions, border clashes, foreign occupation, and/or shifts in Confederation-wide policies [like Sun-Tzu's proposed reorganisation of the servitors into an actual caste], begin to take effect.
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Is the 25% a number in a book, or just best guesstimate? I have HBHL but have only opened the PDF maybe twice.
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Is the 25% a number in a book, or just best guesstimate? I have HBHL but have only opened the PDF maybe twice.
I actually think that number is quite low based on the fact that both HLSB and HBHL say that servitors are supposedly the largest segment of Capellan society I didn't see any percentages based on a quick skim. I suppose 25% could constitute a plurality but I would have thought the actual percentage is higher based on the wording.
Of course the original HLSB also says that anyone not in the military or a support branch has to serve in the home guard, which probably would have given the CC a slight numerical advantage in any engagement on a Capellan planet.
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Is the 25% a number in a book, or just best guesstimate? I have HBHL but have only opened the PDF maybe twice.
Both Liao source-books estimate servitors as 20-30% of the Confederation's population, I believe.
I am looking for the exact page reference. Earlier in this topic that's the reference I gave and MadCap didn't call me on it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have made it up from nowhere... :-[
At any rate, I can point to the explicit statement that they are the largest segment of the population. That is: they are the largest caste. There are six official castes, plus the servitors, plus the janshi. *shrug* Make a ballpark estimate based on that, if you like.
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I don't believe that there is evil in the Inner Sphere (with a few exceptions) just a whole lot of people trying to restore Order in there own way
I love that someone with the name "DARTH" in their name expressed this sentiment. ;D [rockon]
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I note the "against" arguments are out of character, real world arguments. The "pro-Capellan" position is presented by people make-believing they're actually Capellan, probably because it's totally indefensible to make an out-of-character argument for the CC.
Because it's just more fun that way. Fedrat.
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Is the 25% a number in a book, or just best guesstimate? I have HBHL but have only opened the PDF maybe twice.
Both Liao source-books estimate servitors as 20-30% of the Confederation's population, I believe.
I am looking for the exact page reference. Earlier in this topic that's the reference I gave and MadCap didn't call me on it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have made it up from nowhere... :-[
MadCap noted the origins of his numbers earlier in reply to my similarly-themed query:-
No, it's taken from my best guess estimate of 20-30% taken from numerous sources, from the Battletech RPG, to extapolations from wealth data, to fictional depictions and population values given on INN. It's probably the best ballpark we're going to get for the forseeable future.
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Because it's just more fun that way. Fedrat.
Not really, no. I prefer to talk to human beings, rather than argue with ludicrous caricatures.
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Not really, no. I prefer to talk to human beings, rather than argue with ludicrous caricatures.
If that were true, you'd show up at more games. ;)
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Not really, no. I prefer to talk to human beings, rather than argue with ludicrous caricatures.
I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Especially online.
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If that were true, you'd show up at more games. ;)
On the contrary!
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I actually think that number is quite low based on the fact that both HLSB and HBHL say that servitors are supposedly the largest segment of Capellan society I didn't see any percentages based on a quick skim. I suppose 25% could constitute a plurality but I would have thought the actual percentage is higher based on the wording.
The House Liao sourcebook said that, but it said a lot of things that are blatantly false. It couldn't even keep the Confederation's major factory worlds straight from one page to the next.
HB:HL says it was the "largest caste to grow out of the Succession Wars", a strangely worded sentence which seems to indicate the servitor caste and several others are new as of the Succession Wars, yet we know that to be false. I've read that as "the caste that experienced the most growth during the Succession Wars". All of our other sources seem to indicate the value is somewhere around 20-30%.
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Not really, no. I prefer to talk to human beings, rather than argue with ludicrous caricatures.
For the record, my arguments are Socratic, not in character, and I happen to generally believe everything I say. Neither the Capellan Confederation nor Sun-Tzu Liao are evil in my mind, although Maximilian & Romano obviously were. The simple reality of things is that the only functional difference between a servitor and his fellow dirt farmers that make up the bulk of the FedSuns population is that the Davion "citizen" may lament his station within earshot of a government official. Both will find themselves the victim of economic hardships and abuse, and both have difficult, but not impossible opportunities to elevate their standing. I tend to have some pretty outlandish political ideals, and I find the Capellan system of Platonist meritocracy appeals to me. As I said earlier in the thread, I feel there are some basic standards of human dignity that should be upheld, but ultimately, there's no free lunch in life, and nobody owes you anything just for living, save maybe not deliberately killing or maiming you.
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For the record, my arguments are Socratic, not in character, and I happen to generally believe everything I say.
That's horrific.
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That's horrific.
Edward, you find my U-turns horrific. Fact is, you become horrified quite easily. ;) Luckily, I love you like Cthulu loves all mortal beings. ;D
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Luckily, I love you like Cthulu loves all mortal beings. ;D
Least reassuring statement ever.
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Is that a criticism of the rest of us?
Absolutely not. But there is something about the CapCon that draws passionate proselytizing. Put it this way: "The DC is evil" thread started the same time as this one, is a third as long, and is currently arguing about Adam Steiner and the cartoon. I don't think "The FWL is not boring" got past the "Ha ha!" stage.
But that doesn't mean the CC has the best debaters, merely that they draw debate well. If there was not a well laid-out counter argument, this thread would have died pages ago. On the contrary, this is still fun. And thank you for it.
Personally I think Youngblood has it right: they have to work harder for their belief, but that is just my opinion. Regardless, I enjoy the Point-Counterpoint.
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But that doesn't mean the CC has the best debaters
Well, "war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength" isn't much of a platform to build off of, to be sure.
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Well, "war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength" isn't much of a platform to build off of, to be sure.
Why not? It worked for Ingsoc.
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I don't think "The FWL is not boring" got past the "Ha ha!" stage.
That is all of one thread whose title was, like this thread's, "Is not." Unlike this thread there really weren't any "Is to" comments.
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But that doesn't mean the CC has the best debaters, merely that they draw debate well. If there was not a well laid-out counter argument, this thread would have died pages ago. On the contrary, this is still fun. And thank you for it.
What makes it fun, I think, is the IC counter-argument and its believability.
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Why not? It worked for Ingsoc.
Did it? The Newspeak Dictionary post-script is written in character (IIRC) and certainly seems to indicate that NewSpeak was a thing of the past. ;)
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For the record, my arguments are Socratic, not in character, and I happen to generally believe everything I say. Neither the Capellan Confederation nor Sun-Tzu Liao are evil in my mind, although Maximilian & Romano obviously were. The simple reality of things is that the only functional difference between a servitor and his fellow dirt farmers that make up the bulk of the FedSuns population is that the Davion "citizen" may lament his station within earshot of a government official. Both will find themselves the victim of economic hardships and abuse, and both have difficult, but not impossible opportunities to elevate their standing. I tend to have some pretty outlandish political ideals, and I find the Capellan system of Platonist meritocracy appeals to me. As I said earlier in the thread, I feel there are some basic standards of human dignity that should be upheld, but ultimately, there's no free lunch in life, and nobody owes you anything just for living, save maybe not deliberately killing or maiming you.
I feel much the same way. I remember taking political philosophy in college and deploying various arguments on the old boards in defense of the CC based on the supposed social contract between the state and the individual.
However, these days, I'm pretty much basing it on the experience of living in the very RL state that the CC is based on. Believe it or not, living in a largely mono-cultural country with a supposedly oppressive single political party regime that had had a good dollop of ideological indoctrination in its education system is a surprisingly pleasant one. This is purely anecdotal, but it seems to me that most of the supposedly oppressed disenfranchised masses I've met are not ideological zealots or automatons parroting the state-controlled media, but rather quite well educated, politically informed, and very content.
I'm certain that the latter is mainly due to plentiful economic opportunities in urban and developing areas but from what I've learned, even during the dark days of the Cold War with periods of poor political leadership and economically disastrous policies, many people had a strong sense of nationalism and community, even when faced with foot shortages, economic stagnation, and the possibility of Soviet invasion.
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However, these days, I'm pretty much basing it on the experience of living in the very RL state that the CC is based on. Believe it or not, living in a largely mono-cultural country with a supposedly oppressive single political party regime that had had a good dollop of ideological indoctrination in its education system is a surprisingly pleasant one. This is purely anecdotal, but it seems to me that most of the supposedly oppressed disenfranchised masses I've met are not ideological zealots or automatons parroting the state-controlled media, but rather quite well educated, politically informed, and very content.
I am doubtful you are really spending much time hobnobbing with the disenfranchised masses, unless you are out in the countryside living in a shack. More likely you are living among the upwardly mobile urban classes, and probably working with elites, who find the view quite just rosy as you do. I apologize in advance if I am mistaken.
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double post, whoops
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I am doubtful you are really spending much time hobnobbing with the disenfranchised masses, unless you are out in the countryside living in a shack. More likely you are living among the upwardly mobile urban classes, and probably working with elites, who find the view quite just rosy as you do. I apologize in advance if I am mistaken.
No you're not mistaken, I did live in urban areas so my perspective may be colored in that respect. That said, I have visited with extended family in more rural areas and although those areas are more underdeveloped in terms of hard infrastructure than comparable urban/rural distinctions here in the States, they are hardly cauldrons of civil unrest. The urban/rural income disparity is roughly similar to what you have in other countries and those areas do receive the lions share of attention from government sponsored development and welfare programs and at the same time lack the cutthroat competition you have in cities.
Either way, my point is that having observed first hand how an inferior form of government that has politically oppressive policies can operate and still be strongly supported by a large percentage of the population (in fact the rural poor in this instance tend to be even more hardcore conservative and ideological than urban elites), the CC's policies with respect to ideology in education would not result in a population of brainwashed automatons (even before the 3054 reforms which de-emphasized political indoctrination) and are really not that evil even if they prioritize the survival of a strict hierarchical society and social order over individual liberties.
The CC is appealing to me because it is a society that makes an investment in every individual at an early age as a potential citizen and continues to provide for the general education and welfare of the society in exchange for political support and social order for the majority of the populace. Granted, HBHL is as pro-Liao as the HKSB is anti-Liao, it does note that the poor oppressed masses are amongst Sun-Tzu Liao's most fervent supporters. So whatever dissatisfaction servitors have with their lot in life within Capellan society (a lot that is not permenant and that they can legally improve upon), it does not translate to dissatisfaction of the Capellan political leadership.
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... and I happen to generally believe everything I say.
I generally tend to believe everything I say in support of the Confederation as well. But only within the context of the game universe.
From a real-world perspective, I simply see the government of the Capellan Confederation as nothing more than a curious political experiment, much like the other governments of the Successor States -- a political ideal which tends to attract most of my attention in the game. Sure, there are particular elements of the Confederation model that I would like to see instituted in part [or, even, wholesale] in my own country. But I also fairly admit that I'm not an experienced real-world political analyst/commentator, so I'm likely either partly misinformed or slightly mistaken on how I could apply what I like about the Confederation government, to the current political framework of Australia.
I tend to have some pretty outlandish political ideals, and I find the Capellan system of Platonist meritocracy appeals to me.
I wouldn't go as far in my support, though I will note that my own [often] highly critical and bizarre real-world political notions regularly leave those around me with either raised eyebrows and/or scratching their heads in perplexity. Most find it strange that I have printed copies of the three main political philosophies forming the contract between the people of the Confederation and its government, in my office at work, as well as in my home. But these don't serve as something I wish to see repeated in the real-world. They serve, merely, as inspiration of a sort.
See, I'm a sucker for fictional constructs of just about any political, religious, and/or secular thought. And I like tinkering with existing systems and tweaking things in ways that most wouldn't immediately consider appropriate for either a real- or fictional- universe. I bend and I stretch these artificial systems of thought because I like to see how far I can go while attempting to retain the original core dynamic of the system.
That's largely why I support Confederation-discussions here. I enjoy seeing how others view the political system of the Capellan realm, as it helps me along with my own ideas. And I'll often intend on offering perspectives on the Capellan system that derive themselves from my own personal workings, so I can "test the waters" so to speak, and see how the bending and stretching notions of the government [that I'm often tinkering away with at home] play out in a public forum.
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No you're not mistaken, I did live in urban areas so my perspective may be colored in that respect. That said, I have visited with extended family in more rural areas and although those areas are more underdeveloped in terms of hard infrastructure than comparable urban/rural distinctions here in the States, they are hardly cauldrons of civil unrest. The urban/rural income disparity is roughly similar to what you have in other countries and those areas do receive the lions share of attention from government sponsored development and welfare programs and at the same time lack the cutthroat competition you have in cities.
Either way, my point is that having observed first hand how an inferior form of government that has politically oppressive policies can operate and still be strongly supported by a large percentage of the population (in fact the rural poor in this instance tend to be even more hardcore conservative and ideological than urban elites), the CC's policies with respect to ideology in education would not result in a population of brainwashed automatons (even before the 3054 reforms which de-emphasized political indoctrination) and are really not that evil even if they prioritize the survival of a strict hierarchical society and social order over individual liberties.
The CC is appealing to me because it is a society that makes an investment in every individual at an early age as a potential citizen and continues to provide for the general education and welfare of the society in exchange for political support and social order for the majority of the populace. Granted, HBHL is as pro-Liao as the HKSB is anti-Liao, it does note that the poor oppressed masses are amongst Sun-Tzu Liao's most fervent supporters. So whatever dissatisfaction servitors have with their lot in life within Capellan society (a lot that is not permenant and that they can legally improve upon), it does not translate to dissatisfaction of the Capellan political leadership.
Of course they are. Since coming to power, he has taken steps to include them in the franchise and to improve their lot in life. He's not unlike Abraham Lincoln in that regard. The problem is that Lincoln's changes were fundamentally applied to the underlying political system. Sun Tzu's are subject to the whim of whatever whacknut succeeds him.
The problem with the implementation of political ideologies is that these tend to be grounded in ideology, rather than empirical reality. That's why purist systems tend to go down in flaming ignominy, while successful governments tend to incorporate a hodgepodge of compromises, regardless of whatever lip service they may give to ideological orthodoxy.
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Sun Tzu's are subject to the whim of whatever whacknut succeeds him.
Perhaps.
Though, since Daoshen's exploits in the DA novels were written well-before the publication of Handbook: House Liao, I'm assuming that whatever developments TPTB now have in regard to the "future" on the servitor caste and Sun-Tzu's instituted reforms throughout the in-between period of the post-Jihad and pre-DA era, will have to be slightly reconciled in later source material, with what little we do know about servitors in Daoshen's Confederation.
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Of course they are. Since coming to power, he has taken steps to include them in the franchise and to improve their lot in life. He's not unlike Abraham Lincoln in that regard. The problem is that Lincoln's changes were fundamentally applied to the underlying political system. Sun Tzu's are subject to the whim of whatever whacknut succeeds him.
The problem with the implementation of political ideologies is that these tend to be grounded in ideology, rather than empirical reality. That's why purist systems tend to go down in flaming ignominy, while successful governments tend to incorporate a hodgepodge of compromises, regardless of whatever lip service they may give to ideological orthodoxy.
A flaw to be sure and I am certainly not advocating that just simply because other states are in the same position, that justifies it. However, other successor states, including ones that have codified liberties like the Fed Suns or fairly open societies like the Lyran Alliance are just as susceptible to the individual whims of their leaders.
Take for example the FCCW. While it is certainly commendable that so many military leaders involved sought to overthrow a tyrant that trampled individual rights, they did so by resorting to force outside the political and legal structure of the FedCom and Lyran Alliance. The only reason that violations of individual rights and laws of succession were not addressed through the FedCom judicial or political infrastructure is because when push comes to shove, there are no checks against a leader's power except by rebellion and force of arms. How robust and legitimate can political and legal checks against a leader's power be when it is left to people of conscience to take up arms to overthrow that leader? I submit, not very.
Even in the aftermath of one of the bloodiest wars ever fought, the FCCW, were there any institutional changes in either the LA or FS to prevent the abuses of power and trampling of civil liberties under Katherine Steiner-Davion? There may be but I don't recall any.
The only change I can saw were local leaders exploiting the weakness of the central government to seize more power and exchanging an autocratic ruler on New Avalon for an autocratic ruler on New Syrtis or Robinson is hardly an improvement.
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I think you missed something Twinkiemonkie. THe FC does have balances and limits on power. The reason that the limits didn't work is that the people that where supposed to enforce those limits didn't do their jobs. The most famouse one being allowing Katherine to be head of the Fed Suns without having the military requirements needed. It's not the system that failed, it was the people running it. sm
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If a system cannot be counted, however, what good is it? The reality remains the same: Since those in the role of restraining the First Prince are so weak or beholden to those in power themselves that they refuse to oppose the throne, then the system provides no real check on power. The assemblies and laws of the Federated Suns were proven by the FCCW to be no more of a restraint on the Davion family than the House of Scions is to the Chancellor.
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Just because the First Prince can get Arby's Sauce AND Horsey Sauce on his Big Bacon Cheddar is not a violation of his authority. The Super, Extra Sized Curly Fries are a grey area, though.
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If a system cannot be counted, however, what good is it? The reality remains the same: Since those in the role of restraining the First Prince are so weak or beholden to those in power themselves that they refuse to oppose the throne, then the system provides no real check on power. The assemblies and laws of the Federated Suns were proven by the FCCW to be no more of a restraint on the Davion family than the House of Scions is to the Chancellor.
That would have been only true if Katherine had won. Since the last check on the First Prince's or Regent in this case's powers actually did prevail in the form of the protestors against Katherine, the law preveiled just like it did on Marduk in 3001.
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I'm sorry, I must have missed where "populist revolt" was enshrined in Federated Suns law. Let me know when you find it, it'd make great justification for our insurgent operations.
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Really? You don't know about the Right of Appeal (page 101 of the original Sourcebook) in the freedom of assembly. Odd, I would have thought that you would have known about the fact that FedSuns citizens had a long tradition of arguing either by public appeal through civil means like planetary legislatures or direct action by protests, strikes, and just killing the offender who has disrupted the good humor of the land. Honestly, it's all there in the manual. It's probably a required course at Gogh-Bukowski University where protesting is a favored career path.
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Concerning the servitor issue: the fact that the Confederation requires all of its wards---from the children of servitors to the children of nobles---to earn citizenship or face servitor status is an interesting topic for discussion, particularly as other more "populist" factions seem to show... ahem... favoritism to their nobles.
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Concerning the servitor issue: the fact that the Confederation requires all of its wards---from the children of servitors to the children of nobles---to earn citizenship or face servitor status is an interesting topic for discussion, particularly as other more "populist" factions seem to show... ahem... favoritism to their nobles.
Random FWL Noble #3453: I demand my voice heard in Parliament!
Citizen of noble's world: Can we have a voice?
Random Noble: Shut up, you!
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Hmmm, that is true, one could loosely interpret rebellion against the First Prince as a Right of Appeal, which begs the question - if Capellans rebel against their Davion occupiers, as they did during Guererro, are they not then practicing their legal right to protest their unjust conditions?
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Your right, House Davion should have immediately given them their rightful servitor status.
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I think you missed something Twinkiemonkie. THe FC does have balances and limits on power. The reason that the limits didn't work is that the people that where supposed to enforce those limits didn't do their jobs. The most famouse one being allowing Katherine to be head of the Fed Suns without having the military requirements needed. It's not the system that failed, it was the people running it. sm
Granted they certainly may exist on paper but my point is that checks and balances that are not used are useless. If a political leader can circumvent the system and enforce their whims, then that system, has failed. A de facto tyranny that maintains a veneer of individual rights while at the same time not truly "guaranteeing" any of them from the whims of the tyrant is far worse than one where you know exactly where the government stands.
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Hmmm, that is true, one could loosely interpret rebellion against the First Prince as a Right of Appeal, which begs the question - if Capellans rebel against their Davion occupiers, as they did during Guererro, are they not then practicing their legal right to protest their unjust conditions?
The Sarna Marchers were not, because they were part of the Lyran Commonwealth State Command. They should have had representation in the Estates General, though. (The coming of the Clans really did a number on the F/C Merger Committee - they left a lot undone.)
If I recall HBHD correctly worlds incorporated into the Marches have a period where they are considered "provisional territories" and therefore do not have the full rights and freedoms that "natural" worlds of the Federation do.
So in a way, everyone gets to appreciate being a Servitor all over again.
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That would have been only true if Katherine had won. Since the last check on the First Prince's or Regent in this case's powers actually did prevail in the form of the protestors against Katherine, the law preveiled just like it did on Marduk in 3001.
To be sure, the FedSuns may have laws restraining the conduct of nobles. That said, I would point out that those do not necessarily extend to that of the Head of State. The example you cite does nothing to restrain the power of the First Prince. In fact, many of the laws and traditions in that example can in fact facilitate oppression since many of the solutions to noble excesses depend on intervention by the First Prince or superior nobles on behalf of those oppressed. Actually, it could also be just as easily interpreted to establish legal precedent for the First Prince to use military force to crush those that oppose his/her policies which gives Katherine the legal justification to trample on individual rights.
For example, take the The Planetary War Powers Act, which "...gives the Prince the power to place a heavy military presence on any world that becomes a hotbed of internal violence for any length of time, The Prince then names a Military Governor to head a completely new planetary government. The terrorists are hunted down, usually by MIIO agents." That would certainly grant Katherine's actions far more legitimacy than any unwritten tradition.
Furthermore, the unwritten traditions and legal basis for restraint of misbehaving nobles also incorporates judicial trials to determine fault or guilt. However, under common law traditions (which presumably still exists in the FedSuns given their British cultural and ideological heritage), specifically that of Sovereign Immunity, the head of state is not subject to judicial sanction so those laws that apply to nobles would not apply to actions of the First Prince during his/her reign.
I agree that armed rebellion will always be the last resort of the oppressed masses, but that does not mean armed insurrection is part of the political and legal structure of a state. It is rather, a protest of the illegitimacy and failure of such systems. If we are to understand that military insurrection and assassinations are part of the FedSuns political and legal infrastructure, then the right to rule would rest in the hands of those with the greatest generals and ablest assassins, who are just is liable to trample individual rights as those they defeat.
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Just because the First Prince can get Arby's Sauce AND Horsey Sauce on his Big Bacon Cheddar is not a violation of his authority. The Super, Extra Sized Curly Fries are a grey area, though.
I wish there was a "like" button on this forum ;D
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I agree that armed rebellion will always be the last resort of the oppressed masses, but that does not mean armed insurrection is part of the political and legal structure of a state. It is rather, a protest of the illegitimacy and failure of such systems. If we are to understand that military insurrection and assassinations are part of the FedSuns political and legal infrastructure, then the right to rule would rest in the hands of those with the greatest generals and ablest assassins, who are just is liable to trample individual rights as those they defeat.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the issue of legitimacy. Katherine's dubious use of the "First Princess" moniker and her unmet military service requirement created the opening by which an otherwise illegal act - rebellion against the state - became a legal resistance against usurpation.
I'm not sure how you would map the same argument onto the CapCon - perhaps some selection/confirmation shenanigans with the Prefectorate?
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For example, take the The Planetary War Powers Act, which "...gives the Prince the power to place a heavy military presence on any world that becomes a hotbed of internal violence for any length of time, The Prince then names a Military Governor to head a completely new planetary government. The terrorists are hunted down, usually by MIIO agents." That would certainly grant Katherine's actions far more legitimacy than any unwritten tradition.
And you hit the issue with the Suns, the freedoms are only as good as the First Prince who protects them. However, Katherine was never First Prince or "Archon Princess" as she like to say. She illegially went from the Regent to made up title; she was made regent by the Privy Council which is legal. In fact, the truth of the situation is that the next in line since Peter wasn't around would be Arthur, and if Arthur had done five years of military service, she would have been legally obligated to go back to Thakard end of story. However by calling herself Archon-Princess, she went against the law.
The other big issue is that at the time of Katherine usrphertation, there was no FedSuns either. The state known as the FedSuns was dissolved on 19 June 3055 with the death of Archon Melissa Steiner and the full establsihment of the Federated Commonwealth. For all we know under FedCom Law, Katherine was actually acting perfectly reasonable excpet she had to meet the First Prince requirements of military service which is something that we do know was requried. So the best she could be called was Archon-Regent, but again, she usurped power.
Futhermore, I said the Right of Appeal was a check on the First Prince that doesn't mean immediate veto. And let's face it by 3061, Katherine pretty much did whatever she wanted regardless of any law or check on her. If the Estates-General in the Lyran half had voted to make Morgan Kell Archon for whatever reason, Nondi Steiner would have probably had Atlases stomp on delegates. Kathereine could care less about any law or thing that stood in her way. She was rerouted food shipments which was illegial, shifted medicines illegial in the Suns maybe not in the Lyran, cut off worlds, and killed anyone who disagreed with her be they noble or commoner. Basically under Katherine, you either loved her, or you basically weren't a citizen to her government. So the people only had one chocie left under the old power either protest and hope someone punched her in the face eventually, or just go along with it and lose their civil rights. However in the case of Katherine, the protests got to such a point that they turned into open rebellion.
Was Kat in the right for using The Planetary War Powers Act if she ever actually bothered legally drawing up papers to support such actions? I'd have to check basically all the FedCom Civil War books to find out because I can't recall her ever justifying any of her actions during the FedCom Civil War other that she was Archon-Princess which was an illegial post. However, she probably would have that right maybe to use the Plaentary War Powers Act. The Regent under FedSuns law is actually limited in their powers thanks to what happened during the Davion Civil War, so I really have no idea.
However, the big issue is that it has never been a First Prince who has taken away liberties from the people of the Federated Suns. It has always been regents. And in both cases, it was a First Prince who ended the problem. And one of the reasons, there are restrictions on who can be First Prince is to ensure that the liberties and culture of the FedSuns is not threatened by someone trying to alter the state to something elese. Now, that may change with Caleb, but I have no idea yet what will occure there.
But due to the sum of her actions, Kat lost her power due to the final check on her being the right of appeal. Did people die? Yes, but eventually, the system worked. She was booted off New Avalon finally.
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If I recall HBHD correctly worlds incorporated into the Marches have a period where they are considered "provisional territories" and therefore do not have the full rights and freedoms that "natural" worlds of the Federation do.
The War Zone Actions of 2787 for both the Capellan and Draconis Marches would, also, I suspect, ensure much the same for existing Federation citizens as well. Essentially granting the AFFS on world with ultimate authority without interference from local government, would likely lay the foundation for the military to potentially abuse many of the citizenry's "freedoms and liberties" from time to time. [Granted, I'm going from memory with this, so ... my understanding my be a little hazy.]
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I generally tend to believe everything I say in support of the Confederation as well. But only within the context of the game universe.
If I can weigh in here, I'd suggest that all the successor states are caricatures to a certain extent. They're all probably a bit more extreme than any of us would like. The state a person gravitates towards and argues for does meaningfully say some things about that person's real world political views, but only in a general sense.
So for example I would think it fairly intuitive that someone who identifies with and defends the Confederation in this sort of argument thinks that meritocracy is an inherently good idea, probably has some statist leanings, is in favour of a highly regulated economy, and rejects Western liberal democracy as normative. Similarly, someone who identifies with and defends the Federated Suns probably thinks that the primary duty of a state is to act as a guarantor of political and civil liberties, believes that the state's moral duties extend to the people of other states and thus international aid and intervention can be justified, and so on. Someone who argues for the Free World League probably thinks that the state should facilitate the interaction of diverse social and cultural groupings and should defend the rights of minority groups; they may think that it's of prime importance that the state be multivocal and neutral towards a large number of competing ideologies and ways of life.
And so on. I could have listed some others - I was tossing up putting 'is well-disposed to constitutional monarchy' on the FedSuns list, but that might just be a comment on my own views - but you get the picture.
No one probably supports a given BT nation in every respect; but there are some differences that you can guess from a person's BT allegiance. More importantly, these different positions are reasonable and sane, for the most part. "I think the resources of the state should be distributed based on meritocratic principles," is not in itself a totalitarian or evil thing to say. Neither is it inherently hostile, militarist, or expansionist to say, "I think our state has a duty to support other states on the way to greater political freedom and democracy." But in BT, perfectly reasonable, if contentious, political principles like this are represented by more extreme caricatures.
I would also say that were this debate held in-universe, we could point out that the debaters on every side are caricaturing their enemies. An ordinary citizen on a random world in the Crucis March, compared to a similar citizen in the Sian Prefecture, compared to one in Oriente... they probably have a lot more in common than they think.
See, I'm a sucker for fictional constructs of just about any political, religious, and/or secular thought. And I like tinkering with existing systems and tweaking things in ways that most wouldn't immediately consider appropriate for either a real- or fictional- universe. I bend and I stretch these artificial systems of thought because I like to see how far I can go while attempting to retain the original core dynamic of the system.
Indeed; and I think the large debates about the Confederation here show that you're in good company, both from those who support the Confederation system and from those who attack it.
However, the big issue is that it has never been a First Prince who has taken away liberties from the people of the Federated Suns. It has always been regents. And in both cases, it was a First Prince who ended the problem. And one of the reasons, there are restrictions on who can be First Prince is to ensure that the liberties and culture of the FedSuns is not threatened by someone trying to alter the state to something elese. Now, that may change with Caleb, but I have no idea yet what will occure there.
What is happening with that, anyway?
I have the impression that the Dark Age storyline has been spinning its wheels for a while. A shame, since I wanted to see them get somewhere, hopefully throw out a few of the mentally ill leaders, and, well, publish some useful material for that. But while the Dark Age storyline has been spinning its wheels, it feels like the Jihad storyline has been stuck in molasses for just as long.
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So for example I would think it fairly intuitive that someone who identifies with and defends the Confederation in this sort of argument thinks that meritocracy is an inherently good idea, probably has some statist leanings, is in favour of a highly regulated economy, and rejects Western liberal democracy as normative. Similarly, someone who identifies with and defends the Federated Suns probably thinks that the primary duty of a state is to act as a guarantor of political and civil liberties, believes that the state's moral duties extend to the people of other states and thus international aid and intervention can be justified, and so on. Someone who argues for the Free World League probably thinks that the state should facilitate the interaction of diverse social and cultural groupings and should defend the rights of minority groups; they may think that it's of prime importance that the state be multivocal and neutral towards a large number of competing ideologies and ways of life.
Well, I can't get in to it because of Rule 4, but it's definitely not the case with me. I just think the Cappies---they're history and politics and whatnot---are a lotta fun. And I'm Asian. Maybe that's the real reason why I like the Cappies and Dracs best. I think I gravitate to the Cappies more because I know Japanese culture well and the Dracs are too much of a caricature for me.
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So for example I would think it fairly intuitive that someone who identifies with and defends the Confederation in this sort of argument thinks that meritocracy is an inherently good idea, probably has some statist leanings, is in favour of a highly regulated economy, and rejects Western liberal democracy as normative. Similarly, someone who identifies with and defends the Federated Suns probably thinks that the primary duty of a state is to act as a guarantor of political and civil liberties, believes that the state's moral duties extend to the people of other states and thus international aid and intervention can be justified, and so on. Someone who argues for the Free World League probably thinks that the state should facilitate the interaction of diverse social and cultural groupings and should defend the rights of minority groups; they may think that it's of prime importance that the state be multivocal and neutral towards a large number of competing ideologies and ways of life.
Making assumptions about real life folks based on their fictional game allegiances doesn't really sound like the most accurate thing to do. Sometimes, we just like the paint scheme.
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Making assumptions about real life folks based on their fictional game allegiances doesn't really sound like the most accurate thing to do. Sometimes, we just like the paint scheme.
Indeed. My campaign character sponsors state terrorism (sometimes against his own people), clones is enemies to pass off as illegitimate children, steals from pacifists, conspires with the enemy, betrays his allies for profit, and makes off with whatever possible from anyone who leaves something unattended... I only do, like, half of that stuff :D
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Someone who argues for the Free World League probably thinks that the state should facilitate the interaction of diverse social and cultural groupings and should defend the rights of minority groups; they may think that it's of prime importance that the state be multivocal and neutral towards a large number of competing ideologies and ways of life.
Dude there is way too much to like in the League just to coin in that statement. Some people may like the idea of federalism in battletech, others prefer a representative state with some parliamentary authority, Others that House Marik is not the Free Worlds League, but merely a part of it unlike Liao, Davion, or Kurita. Others that it is a maritime power, or because they like the color purple. Some people even hate everything about their favorite faction to play. You cannot draw any conclusions unless someone explicitly says thats why they like it.
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No faction is the "good guy" or the "bad guy" in battletech. although the RWR and the Word of Blake have the highest number of evil stereotypes.
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When people say that names like the Outworlds Alliance keep popping in my head.
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Making assumptions about real life folks based on their fictional game allegiances doesn't really sound like the most accurate thing to do. Sometimes, we just like the paint scheme.
Yes, but people who just like the paint scheme don't come into topics like this and argue on behalf of their chosen house. ;)
That's the point I intended to make. A person who seriously argues for the moral legitimacy of one successor state over another is probably able to identify with that house. Identifying with a successor state is surely done on the basis of something one feels one has in common with it?
Indeed. My campaign character sponsors state terrorism (sometimes against his own people), clones is enemies to pass off as illegitimate children, steals from pacifists, conspires with the enemy, betrays his allies for profit, and makes off with whatever possible from anyone who leaves something unattended... I only do, like, half of that stuff
Oh, I have roleplayed some absolutely loathsome individuals in my time, so I understand. :)
Dude there is way too much to like in the League just to coin in that statement. Some people may like the idea of federalism in battletech, others prefer a representative state with some parliamentary authority, Others that House Marik is not the Free Worlds League, but merely a part of it unlike Liao, Davion, or Kurita.
Well, I should think it's obvious that any faction has multiple draws.
You might like a faction because you identify with its politics or culture. That's what my comment was originally aimed at.
Or, since this is also a board game, you might identify with one for completely different reasons. You might like its 'mech selection, colour schemes, or its overall play-style on the tabletop.
There are probably people who identify with single formations or even with single characters, and take them as primary, faction be damned.
In retrospect you are correct and my original statement was overly broad. I should have narrowed it down and made it clear I was talking about people who defend or promote the successor states in topics like this. I do not think, for instance, that MadCapellan is a Confederation fan simply because he likes green, or because he thinks the Capellan 'mechs are great designs, or because he finds the 'asymmetrical warfare' style of play particularly fun.
Some people even hate everything about their favorite faction to play.
I hardly think it's possible to hate everything about your favourite faction.
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So for example I would think it fairly intuitive that someone who identifies with and defends the Confederation in this sort of argument thinks that meritocracy is an inherently good idea, probably has some statist leanings, is in favour of a highly regulated economy, and rejects Western liberal democracy as normative.
I'd agree with this in part.
As I stated earlier, I've often voiced eyebrow-raising notions about government and political structures while in the company of others. And while I can certainly perceive the possibilities [and potential benefits] for aspects of the Confederation model to be applied in my own country's government, that doesn't necessarily mean I'd actually champion such aspects being applied in the real-world. Merely, that I understand and appreciate both sides of the fictional/non-fictional divide to the extent of being able to hypothetically play them out in-game by also incorporating real-world aspects from my own country's government and working them into the State-system of the Capellan Confederation in order to create the type of political framework that allows me to experiment with my ideas.
It's a great deal of fun!
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I hardly think it's possible to hate everything about your favourite faction.
Sure it is. You just have to play FWL. ;)
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Sure it is. You just have to play FWL. ;)
I love the target rich environment
Capellans
Lyrans
Regulans
Andurians
Marians
Republicans
And now Wolves!
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Indeed. My campaign character sponsors state terrorism (sometimes against his own people), clones is enemies to pass off as illegitimate children, steals from pacifists, conspires with the enemy, betrays his allies for profit, and makes off with whatever possible from anyone who leaves something unattended... I only do, like, half of that stuff :D
And their leader only has half a face!
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/HikageMaru/Battletech/Marik-Boring.jpg)
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That's the point I intended to make. A person who seriously argues for the moral legitimacy of one successor state over another is probably able to identify with that house. Identifying with a successor state is surely done on the basis of something one feels one has in common with it?
I'll admit that if I were emperor of my own state and could do things my way maybe I'll experiment with a "Utopian" (as in the book, not the obtuse concept) society with elements that y'all would call "Capellan."
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Yes, but people who just like the paint scheme don't come into topics like this and argue on behalf of their chosen house. ;)
That's the point I intended to make. A person who seriously argues for the moral legitimacy of one successor state over another is probably able to identify with that house. Identifying with a successor state is surely done on the basis of something one feels one has in common with it?
I've argued seriously for the moral legitimacy of the Word of Blake before, but even though they're my primary faction I don't really identify them; in most ways they're my diametric opposite, morally speaking. I just enjoy playing devil's advocate. In actual fact, if I were to pick a faction based solely on my philosophical affinities, it would probably be either the Free Worlds League (my second favorite faction) or Democracy Now!.
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And you hit the issue with the Suns, the freedoms are only as good as the First Prince who protects them. However, Katherine was never First Prince or "Archon Princess" as she like to say. She illegially went from the Regent to made up title; she was made regent by the Privy Council which is legal. In fact, the truth of the situation is that the next in line since Peter wasn't around would be Arthur, and if Arthur had done five years of military service, she would have been legally obligated to go back to Thakard end of story. However by calling herself Archon-Princess, she went against the law.
The other big issue is that at the time of Katherine usrphertation, there was no FedSuns either. The state known as the FedSuns was dissolved on 19 June 3055 with the death of Archon Melissa Steiner and the full establsihment of the Federated Commonwealth. For all we know under FedCom Law, Katherine was actually acting perfectly reasonable excpet she had to meet the First Prince requirements of military service which is something that we do know was requried. So the best she could be called was Archon-Regent, but again, she usurped power.
Futhermore, I said the Right of Appeal was a check on the First Prince that doesn't mean immediate veto. And let's face it by 3061, Katherine pretty much did whatever she wanted regardless of any law or check on her. If the Estates-General in the Lyran half had voted to make Morgan Kell Archon for whatever reason, Nondi Steiner would have probably had Atlases stomp on delegates. Kathereine could care less about any law or thing that stood in her way. She was rerouted food shipments which was illegial, shifted medicines illegial in the Suns maybe not in the Lyran, cut off worlds, and killed anyone who disagreed with her be they noble or commoner. Basically under Katherine, you either loved her, or you basically weren't a citizen to her government. So the people only had one chocie left under the old power either protest and hope someone punched her in the face eventually, or just go along with it and lose their civil rights. However in the case of Katherine, the protests got to such a point that they turned into open rebellion.
Was Kat in the right for using The Planetary War Powers Act if she ever actually bothered legally drawing up papers to support such actions? I'd have to check basically all the FedCom Civil War books to find out because I can't recall her ever justifying any of her actions during the FedCom Civil War other that she was Archon-Princess which was an illegial post. However, she probably would have that right maybe to use the Plaentary War Powers Act. The Regent under FedSuns law is actually limited in their powers thanks to what happened during the Davion Civil War, so I really have no idea.
However, the big issue is that it has never been a First Prince who has taken away liberties from the people of the Federated Suns. It has always been regents. And in both cases, it was a First Prince who ended the problem. And one of the reasons, there are restrictions on who can be First Prince is to ensure that the liberties and culture of the FedSuns is not threatened by someone trying to alter the state to something elese. Now, that may change with Caleb, but I have no idea yet what will occure there.
But due to the sum of her actions, Kat lost her power due to the final check on her being the right of appeal. Did people die? Yes, but eventually, the system worked. She was booted off New Avalon finally.
I think our basic disagreement is about whether armed insurrection is a legitimate check on the powers of a head of state. I just happen to think that Civil War, political violence, and assassinations are indicative of the failure of a political system rather than an intrinsic part of the political process. If I am understanding you correctly, it is your assertion that violence to achieve political ends are a legitimate part of FedSuns society and "the system". However, it appears to me that rebellions are only legitimate and "legal" in hindsight if they happen to succeed. In that case, that "system" would merely be the rule of the strong rather than the rule of the legitimate or just. I've never heard of a system of government that recognizes political violence to achieve one's ends. But that is certainly something we can agree to disagree on.
To bring it back to the original assertion that I was contesting, that other more open societies are more protected from the whims of their heads of state...I fail to see how requiring military service in order to become First Prince in any way serves to check the whims of the First Prince once that individual has been invested with the authority of that office. Are we assuming that all members of the AFFS respect individual rights and due process? Or that members of the AFFS will be good and just leaders? Given the number of generals that went along with Katherine's actions in squashing individual rights, that hardly seems the case. Regardless of whatever that office is called, Regent, First Prince, Archon Princess, Chancellor, Coordinator, Flying Sphagetti Monster...the de facto role that Katherine occupied is the same as it is in any other successor state (except maybe the FWL), that of an autocratic Head of State with no guaranteed check on their actions except through violence.
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So for example I would think it fairly intuitive that someone who identifies with and defends the Confederation in this sort of argument thinks that meritocracy is an inherently good idea, probably has some statist leanings, is in favour of a highly regulated economy, and rejects Western liberal democracy as normative. Similarly, someone who identifies with and defends the Federated Suns probably thinks that the primary duty of a state is to act as a guarantor of political and civil liberties, believes that the state's moral duties extend to the people of other states and thus international aid and intervention can be justified, and so on. Someone who argues for the Free World League probably thinks that the state should facilitate the interaction of diverse social and cultural groupings and should defend the rights of minority groups; they may think that it's of prime importance that the state be multivocal and neutral towards a large number of competing ideologies and ways of life.
Not correct. While that might me true regarding by support of Lyrans, I support the Capellans because I am myself from a small country that got invaded and had their land stolen by an autocrat in a bigger eastern country.
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Not correct. While that might me true regarding by support of Lyrans, I support the Capellans because I am myself from a small country that got invaded and had their land stolen by an autocrat in a bigger eastern country.
I'm guessing either...Ireland or Tibet? ???
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East Turkestan? Inner Mongolia?
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I think our basic disagreement is about whether armed insurrection is a legitimate check on the powers of a head of state. I just happen to think that Civil War, political violence, and assassinations are indicative of the failure of a political system rather than an intrinsic part of the political process. If I am understanding you correctly, it is your assertion that violence to achieve political ends are a legitimate part of FedSuns society and "the system". However, it appears to me that rebellions are only legitimate and "legal" in hindsight if they happen to succeed. In that case, that "system" would merely be the rule of the strong rather than the rule of the legitimate or just. I've never heard of a system of government that recognizes political violence to achieve one's ends. But that is certainly something we can agree to disagree on.
To bring it back to the original assertion that I was contesting, that other more open societies are more protected from the whims of their heads of state...I fail to see how requiring military service in order to become First Prince in any way serves to check the whims of the First Prince once that individual has been invested with the authority of that office. Are we assuming that all members of the AFFS respect individual rights and due process? Or that members of the AFFS will be good and just leaders? Given the number of generals that went along with Katherine's actions in squashing individual rights, that hardly seems the case. Regardless of whatever that office is called, Regent, First Prince, Archon Princess, Chancellor, Coordinator, Flying Sphagetti Monster...the de facto role that Katherine occupied is the same as it is in any other successor state (except maybe the FWL), that of an autocratic Head of State with no guaranteed check on their actions except through violence.
Violent insurrection is always the final option when a goverment fails to placate the populace regardless of the system of goverment. It is less a condemnation of a political system and more a failure of leadership to implement said system to the overall satisfaction of the governed people. Believe it or not, a rebellion does not have to succeed to achieve legitimacy, it only has to win broad internal and external support to achieve legitimacy. Once it achieves that, then a revolution may have a better than even chance at success. The fact that KSD was not qualified to rule the FS was only another reason she was not a legitimate ruler in addition to her other flagrant violations of the laws of the land. Whether military experience should be such a qualifier is the subject for another thread, but I happen to believe it should be. As others have already stated, the systems of government that should have prevented her illegal power grab failed to exercise their authority and should be considered complicit IMHO...
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What TwinkieMonkie has been questioning was not the legitimacy of Katherine's rule, but whether or not armed insurrection against her can truly be considered part of the Federated Suns legal process.
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If a system cannot be counted, however, what good is it? The reality remains the same: Since those in the role of restraining the First Prince are so weak or beholden to those in power themselves that they refuse to oppose the throne, then the system provides no real check on power. The assemblies and laws of the Federated Suns were proven by the FCCW to be no more of a restraint on the Davion family than the House of Scions is to the Chancellor.
No system devised by man can survive when the people who are supposed to run the system don't do thier jobs (and no system created by man is pefect either). In Katherine's case she manipulated the system when she could, but also was quite willing to go way outside the legal system to kill people she thought where in her way or might oppose her. People like Mellisa Steiner.
But despite it all, the FS system DID work in a way the CC's never could. It created people that would stand up to someone destroying/currupting the system, even if it was not "legal" to do so. In the CC if someone who is an utter monster or insane takes power, the system does nothing about and it cannot create people that will try to correct the problem. sm
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That's patently false. The people of the Confederation have assassinated many a tyrant. What the people of the Confederation won't do is jeopardize our sovereignity with civil war and rebellion. Simply because the Capellan Citizenry refuses to damage their own property and infastructure to rid itself of an ill-suited ruler does not mean Capellans are incapable of doing so.
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::)
Ignoring that lingering civil war between Candice and Romano/Sun Tzu.
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::)
Ignoring that lingering civil war between Candice and Romano/Sun Tzu.
Candace was a Fedrat puppet.
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Candace was a Fedrat puppet.
And?
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And?
Just another example of outside powers interfering with the Capellan Confederation---they just did so through a puppet. So I wouldn't characterize it as a civil war per se.
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Just another example of outside powers interfering with the Capellan Confederation---they just did so through a puppet. So I wouldn't characterize it as a civil war per se.
Ah, the old No True Northwind Highlander. The Capellans never have any civil wars because any civil war they have isn't by definition a civil war, even when they are fighting amongst themselves.
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::)
Ignoring that lingering civil war between Candice and Romano/Sun Tzu.
The St.Ives Conflict, similarly to the American Civil War, doesnmt actually meet the textbook definition of "Civil War" the way, say, the English Civil War was. Candace did not seek the overthrow of Sun-Tzu Liao or to take control of the Confederation, and the Compact was already a de facto established power, even if unrecognized by the Confederation. Taking that into account, I consider both sides openness to a negotiated peace that left Candace Duchess but within the Confederation as yet another reflection of the Capellans' natural aversion to civil disorder.
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The St.Ives Conflict, similarly to the American Civil War, doesnmt actually meet the textbook definition of "Civil War" the way, say, the English Civil War was.
What "textbook" are you referring to? Every (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civil+war) common (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war) definition (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civil+war) of the term (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civil%20war) is just two factions within the same nation fighting. And the official position of the Confederation is that the conflict with St. Ives was an internal Capellan matter. Even if you want to go that way, the FedCom isn't a civil war in that way that the English Civil War was, Victor was just trying to remove his sister, not gain/regain the throne.
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What "textbook" are you referring to? Every (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civil+war) common (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war) definition (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civil+war) of the term (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civil%20war) is just two factions within the same nation fighting. And the official position of the Confederation is that the conflict with St. Ives was an internal Capellan matter. Even if you want to go that way, the FedCom isn't a civil war in that way that the English Civil War was, Victor was just trying to remove his sister, not gain/regain the throne.
Ah but Capellan is both cultural as well a state. So open to many interpretations.
Ah devil's advocating its like instigating but with more concentrated winning.
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Ah but Capellan is both cultural as well a state. So open to many interpretations.
Given that it was formulated by a bunch of us authors/developers and delivered by me, I'm positive it was the state. ;)
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Given that it was formulated by a bunch of us authors/developers and delivered by me, I'm positive it was the state. ;)
It's unfair that Kit gets to win arguments by using the 'because I created it that way' card
Well played ;D
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Given that it was formulated by a bunch of us authors/developers and delivered by me, I'm positive it was the state. ;)
Authorial intent is irrelevant. If the sourcebook isn't clear on the subject, it's the reader's interpretation that matters, not the writer's.
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Authorial intent is irrelevant. If the sourcebook isn't clear on the subject, it's the reader's interpretation that matters, not the writer's.
I was the speaker, not the writer. It was an in character round table at GenCon last year. If you care to poll the audience, I'm sure you'd get the same result. It was completely in the context of governments and states, not cultures.
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Authorial intent is irrelevant. If the sourcebook isn't clear on the subject, it's the reader's interpretation that matters, not the writer's.
Oho! A devotee of Roland Barthes in the audience!
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I was the speaker, not the writer. It was an in character round table at GenCon last year. If you care to poll the audience, I'm sure you'd get the same result. It was completely in the context of governments and states, not cultures.
The opinions of the speaker and the audience are irrelevant as well. If it wasn't clear if "Capellan" refers to the culture or the state, then it's a matter of opinion, not fact.
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The opinions of the speaker and the audience are irrelevant as well. If it wasn't clear if "Capellan" refers to the culture or the state, then it's a matter of opinion, not fact.
So who's opinion can we trust? If neither the author, the speaker or the audience can be relied upon, do you mean to say the statement does not exist?
By what to you base your belief that the statement delivered was not clear? I believe you are arguing from a position of ignorance here.
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What "textbook" are you referring to? Every (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civil+war) common (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war) definition (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civil+war) of the term (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civil%20war) is just two factions within the same nation fighting. And the official position of the Confederation is that the conflict with St. Ives was an internal Capellan matter. Even if you want to go that way, the FedCom isn't a civil war in that way that the English Civil War was, Victor was just trying to remove his sister, not gain/regain the throne.
If you go further down the page on wikipedia, you'll find that political scientists differentiate a civil war from a war of secession or a war between two countries of the same nationality in that a civil war is between two groups or sects within a single State over control of that State or it's policies. Ergo, the American Civil War is correctly a war of secession, not a civil war. Similarly, as the Compact existed outside the Confederation at the time the St. Ives Conflict began, it's technically a war between two states of the same nation, as when Austria fought Prussia, both German nations. Had the St.Ives Commonality begun the conflict as part of the Confederation, and had Candace sought to change the government of said State, only then would it have been a civil war. Sun-Tzu Liao advised others to stay out as it was an internal Capellan matter, which is true if you view the Capellan people as a nation. Such an assertion would be similar to calling any war between England and Ireland an "internal British matter" saying such a thing does not make it a civil war.
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So who's opinion can we trust? If neither the author, the speaker or the audience can be relied upon, do you mean to say the statement does not exist?
The opinion of the individual reader/listener.
By what to you base your belief that the statement delivered was not clear? I believe you are arguing from a position of ignorance here.
I'm assuming it wasn't clear since other posters seem to think it wasn't.
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If you go further down the page on wikipedia, you'll find that political scientists differentiate a civil war from a war of secession or a war between two countries of the same nationality in that a civil war is between two groups or sects within a single State over control of that State or it's policies. Ergo, the American Civil War is correctly a war of secession, not a civil war. Similarly, as the Compact existed outside the Confederation at the time the St. Ives Conflict began, it's technically a war between two states of the same nation, as when Austria fought Prussia, both German nations. Had the St.Ives Commonality begun the conflict as part of the Confederation, and had Candace sought to change the government of said State, only then would it have been a civil war. Sun-Tzu Liao advised others to stay out as it was an internal Capellan matter, which is true if you view the Capellan people as a nation. Such an assertion would be similar to calling any war between England and Ireland an "internal British matter" saying such a thing does not make it a civil war.
Your post has me thinking... if we apply the definition of "civil" war used in the context of the American Civil War (or the "War Between the States") to the American Revolutionary War, then why not call it a "civil war" other than the fact that the Americans won? Perhaps if the South had won, they would have called it the "Confederate Revolutionary War." On the other hand, can the French Revolution properly be called the "French Civil War"? I dunno but it's interesting.
Perhaps, with the possible exception of England, if the faction supporting the government wins they wanna called it a "civil war," but if the government-supporting faction loses, they call it a "revolution."
Oh well. Ultimately, the St. Ives conflict was an internal matter but the St. Ives succession was due to Fedrat meddling.
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Your post has me thinking... if we apply the definition of "civil" war used in the context of the American Civil War (or the "War Between the States") to the American Revolutionary War, then why not call it a "civil war" other than the fact that the Americans won? Perhaps if the South had won, they would have called it the "Confederate Revolutionary War." On the other hand, can the French Revolution properly be called the "French Civil War"? I dunno but it's interesting.
Perhaps, with the possible exception of England, if the faction supporting the government wins they wanna called it a "civil war," but if the government-supporting faction loses, they call it a "revolution."
Oh well. Ultimately, the St. Ives conflict was an internal matter but the St. Ives succession was due to Fedrat meddling.
And here you've struck on one of the keys of history: It's written by the winners.
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The opinion of the individual reader/listener.
I'm assuming it wasn't clear since other posters seem to think it wasn't.
Which is why I clarified that it was.
"In regards to the St. Ives conflict, that is purely an internal matter of the Capellan Confederation and it will be resolved as such."
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The opinion of the individual reader/listener.
I'm assuming it wasn't clear since other posters seem to think it wasn't.
I don't think what you're saying is clear. Therefore, it means whatever I want it to mean, and whatever you say it means is wrong unless it agrees with what I say. This is the kind of reasoning that results in more D- paper grades than I can remember.
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I don't think what you're saying is clear. Therefore, it means whatever I want it to mean, and whatever you say it means is wrong unless it agrees with what I say. This is the kind of reasoning that results in more D- paper grades than I can remember.
I never said anyone was wrong because they disagree with me. What I'm saying is that there can be different interpretations of the same material and that the author's intent is often irrelevant to the meaning the reader derives from the work.
Interpret that however you like.
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It was an internal matter because the Capellans won to put it another way. Had the Confederation lost, the St. Ives Compact would probably see it as their War of 1812, and that is significant since that war made many Americans as well as much of the rest of the world truly realize they were independant from England.
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It was an internal matter because the Capellans won to put it another way. Had the Confederation lost, the St. Ives Compact would probably see it as their War of 1812, and that is significant since that war made many Americans as well as much of the rest of the world truly realize they were independant from England.
Good thing St. Ives lost, then.
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It was an internal matter because the Capellans won to put it another way. Had the Confederation lost, the St. Ives Compact would probably see it as their War of 1812, and that is significant since that war made many Americans as well as much of the rest of the world truly realize they were independant from England.
*Wince* Please call it the United Kindom or Britain. Refering to the political entity by one of the constiuent states is as irritating and inaccurate as hearing the USA called California all the time.
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If you prefer, the Americans gained independance from the "Kingdom of Great Britain" in the Revolution, and got the benefits from the end of the War of 1812 from the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."
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I don't think what you're saying is clear. Therefore, it means whatever I want it to mean, and whatever you say it means is wrong unless it agrees with what I say. This is the kind of reasoning that results in more D- paper grades than I can remember.
The Cappie Kool Aid has truly runneth over in this thread :D I wouldn't drink the water either although one of them will now most certainly begin to extol the virtues of the incredibly pure CC water and how honored they would be to have the opportunity to drink out of Sun Tzu's toilet [notworthy] Then go on to argue whether toilet is even the proper term since it is so obviously superior to other Successor State examples as opposed to maybe Citizen to Servitor Potable Water and Protein Bar Converter, Servitor Cranium Washing Machine, or Large Auto Filling Servitor Laundry Basin O:-)
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I never said anyone was wrong because they disagree with me. What I'm saying is that there can be different interpretations of the same material and that the author's intent is often irrelevant to the meaning the reader derives from the work.
Interpret that however you like.
Interpretations can differ. That doesn't mean the author's intent is irrelevant. If the author's intent is irrelevant to the meaning the reader derives, the reader either needs to learn to read in context, or the author has failed to communicate clearly.
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Interpretations can differ. That doesn't mean the author's intent is irrelevant. If the author's intent is irrelevant to the meaning the reader derives, the reader either needs to learn to read in context, or the author has failed to communicate clearly.
If I'm reading Erasmus or Thomas Payne, things are much more open to interpretation. However, if the author still lives, I can inform my interpretation with their clarification (if they give one)
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I never said anyone was wrong because they disagree with me. What I'm saying is that there can be different interpretations of the same material and that the author's intent is often irrelevant to the meaning the reader derives from the work.
Interpret that however you like.
That's my momma you're talking about!
:P
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I knew I would buzz-kill this thread. We need to get it back on track with the feint/counter-feint between Mecha-Anchovy and MadCap.
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I knew I would buzz-kill this thread. We need to get it back on track with the feint/counter-feint between Mecha-Anchovy and MadCap.
No, I think I've made my case to my satisfaction.
Quick, someone else, do something entertaining!
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Quick, someone else, do something entertaining!
The contentions between FS and FWL fans debating which House initially came up with 'Mech Knighthoods, are still somewhat mildly entertaining. To a degree.
Almost as fun as deathfrombeyond's "Draconis Combine Public Notifications." Those always tended to rattle plenty of cages.
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Interpretations can differ. That doesn't mean the author's intent is irrelevant. If the author's intent is irrelevant to the meaning the reader derives, the reader either needs to learn to read in context, or the author has failed to communicate clearly.
I disagree. There are many authors who intend for the reader to derive whatever meaning they personally derive from the author's work. I think a book or speech that is open to multiple interpretations is much better than a work that has an extremely clear meaning. To me, one of the beautiful things about art is that it means different things to different people.
Also, not that I'm not enjoying this little debate or anything, but we've gone way of topic. Just sayin'. ;)
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The contentions between FS and FWL fans debating which House initially came up with 'Mech Knighthoods, are still somewhat mildly entertaining. To a degree.
Er...
I hate to say this, but wasn't it the Capellans who initially came up with 'mech knighthoods? The Lorix Order?
I thought the FS/FWL dispute was about whether or not the Knights of the Inner Sphere were stealing the FedSuns' Arthurian theme?
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Yeah, I have never actually disputed the Lorax Order's place with the Capellans. My beef has always been on the issue of Arthurian lore, so Mech-Anchovy is correct with regard to me at least.
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I hate to say this, but wasn't it the Capellans who initially came up with 'mech knighthoods? The Lorix Order?
The precepts of the Lorix Order certainly shaped the basic concept, and likely influenced similarly themed-notions among other dedicated 'Mech-based warrior fraternities across the rest of the Inner Sphere. [I recall Handbook: House Liao stating something to this effect.]
I thought the FS/FWL dispute was about whether or not the Knights of the Inner Sphere were stealing the FedSuns' Arthurian theme?
That's the one! Seems my memory failed me this very morn.
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Yeah, I have never actually disputed the Lorax Order's place with the Capellans. My beef has always been on the issue of Arthurian lore, so Mech-Anchovy is correct with regard to me at least.
Well, on that topic, and as something of a fan of Arthurian myth myself, I have a few thoughts...
The Federated Suns is the pseudo-Arthurian 'knights in space' faction. It always has been, and that's not likely to change.
That said, even Knights of the Inner Sphere aside, I see a lot of Arthurian motifs in BattleTech outside the Federated Suns. Richard Cameron was noted to be, well, a fanboy for King Arthur; and Amaris was his Mordred. Even in 3025 there were two planets called Camlann, one in the Combine and one in the League. The Brotherhood of Randis has always had Arthurian overtones, right down to their greatest leader being named 'Galahad'.
It was always a conceit of BattleTech, from the earliest days, that 'mechs mean the rise of a new feudal order, and thus a new knightly class. MechWarriors (a term I actually think sounds silly, but there you go) have always been knights. In light of that, it's only to be expected that they be portrayed in terms of that image. That means that BattleTech has always engaged with this idea of the warrior; and thus how the knight is portrayed in culture and mythology. Hence the Combine samurai fixation, hence the Suns' medieval imagery, hence the Hellenic feel of a lot of FWL formations, hence the Capellan warrior houses, and so on.
For Western writers, and for us as a Western audience, it's only natural that Arthurian imagery will come up: because Arthurian mythology is probably the paradigm example of knightly virtue for Western culture. Certainly there are others - Orlando Furioso is a favourite of mine, which I think is terribly underrated; see also El Cid, Roland, William Marshal - but Arthurian myth is one of the heavy-hitters. When the Western factions of BattleTech try to engage with the concept of the knight, or the concept of the warrior, Arthurian myth will come up a lot, especially in light of the feudal basis of the setting. Now of course it comes up most in the Federated Suns; but people and factions outside of the Suns are aware of and engage with the imagery as well.
So in that sense I don't feel particularly annoyed or offended that the Knights of the Inner Sphere exist. They do feel rather odd in the Free Worlds League, admittedly. I get a more Athenian or Roman feel from the League, both politically (popular democracy, regular flirtations with tyranny, etc.) and militarily (naval power, ships named for Homeric myth and/or places in Greece, formations like the Free Worlds Legionnaires, academies like Athene); but I don't think the League needs to be a caricature. Just as you will find in the Federated Suns ideas, images, and themes that are not Arthurian at all, you will find in the Free Worlds League a few things that buck the trend. The Knights of the Inner Sphere can be one of those things.
Now, feel free to tell me why I'm completely wrong and missing the point. ;)
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Knighthood has existed within the Free Worlds League for centuries, and the Camelot influences are present in people such as Rhean Marik who also refused to break the Ares Conventions on similar grounds.
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I disagree. There are many authors who intend for the reader to derive whatever meaning they personally derive from the author's work. I think a book or speech that is open to multiple interpretations is much better than a work that has an extremely clear meaning. To me, one of the beautiful things about art is that it means different things to different people.
Indeed? I'll be sure to let my boss know that I'd prefer to write my reports to him in ways that are open to multiple interpretations. No doubt that will please him greatly as he seeks to make informed policy decisions. Oh wait, that would be silly if my purpose was to inform him. If the author is there, telling you what his intent was, and what his writing meant, and it disagrees with your perspective, it's time to admit your perspective is wrong, and deal with it.
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I don't know, Kit is the Precentor of Lies. ;D
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Indeed? I'll be sure to let my boss know that I'd prefer to write my reports to him in ways that are open to multiple interpretations. No doubt that will please him greatly as he seeks to make informed policy decisions. Oh wait, that would be silly if my purpose was to inform him. If the author is there, telling you what his intent was, and what his writing meant, and it disagrees with your perspective, it's time to admit your perspective is wrong, and deal with it.
It's kind of annoying though how certain Catalyst works have required people to go out and ask the authors themselves outside of the context itself for clarification. Granted, that's what Fan Communication is for, but perhaps there is something to be said about why it's needed in the first place.
Multi-faceted fiction with multiple authors attempting to collaborate on a shared "universe" doesn't sound as simple as a day's non-fictional recounting of events from one person privately to another, complete with numerous implied understandings.
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For a nation based on Dynastic/Maoist Communist China, and going off what've I read of those two eras of Chinese history, and the books written in the BT universe, there's not a lot of good I can say about the Capellans except they've always paid my mercs pretty well. Oh, and they have a few choice designs.
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Knighthood has existed within the Free Worlds League for centuries, and the Camelot influences are present in people such as Rhean Marik who also refused to break the Ares Conventions on similar grounds.
Rhean Marik is an intresting character that I never really appreciated till I read "Falling from Grace" on Battlecorps. The story made me appreciate House Marik more than anything else from its infighting more than anything. Intrigue from a daughter's killing her father to killing a son as well due to his choice in mates made the story come alive as Rhean grew into her role from a toddler to a Captain-General.
And it was also a novel that is the source of my problem with the Camelot overtures in the League that really started in 3054. Ideal War to this day makes me angry for one line about how Le Morte D'Arthur isn't read that much in the Inner Sphere. Because just reading Warrior Trilogy or the Davion Sourcebook basically should pause that blantent statement right there since both of those are dripping with Arthurian lore. Honestly as Mecha-Anchovy pointed out, there are other references to Arthurian mythos, and I've never been upset with those. I'd be fine with the FWL naming ships the Galahad if it wasn't for the fact that all steams from the fact that Thomas Marik decided one day that he wanted to make his own Knights of the Round Table and that one line in Ideal War. That one horrid and mind tortuing line nearly made me unable to take the FWL seriously because apparently their culture is so malable that you can just add anything and they'll accept it readily.
Thankfully, "Falling from Grace" redeemed the FWL to me.
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To be clear, it was actually Marion Marik who was in charge. Rhean came to my mind for the Camelot reasons.
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For a nation based on Dynastic/Maoist Communist China, and going off what've I read of those two eras of Chinese history, and the books written in the BT universe, there's not a lot of good I can say about the Capellans except they've always paid my mercs pretty well. Oh, and they have a few choice designs.
Reading this thread will put paid to that assumption. The functions of the State far more closely resemble Plato's Republic than Mao's People's Republic.
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You mean in the sense that neither exist, and if they did, would never function as described?
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You mean in the sense that neither exist, and if they did, would never function as described?
I don't think any government's functions have worked as described. That's why certain things like constitutional amendments exist, to attempt to fix problems. Somewhat.
And remember, fiction carries artistic value as well. So even if it isn't a perfect body of rule, it at least makes for a good caricature.
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I don't think any government's functions have worked as described. That's why certain things like constitutional amendments exist, to attempt to fix problems. Somewhat.
Oh what webs we weave...
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You mean in the sense that neither exist, and if they did, would never function as described?
Or, perhaps, that they sound altogether idealistic on paper. But resemble something else entirely when manifested as a physical construct of mankind's desire for power.
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Have you ever noticed that no idealist even believes that you can arrest that serial mugger known as reality?
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Or, perhaps, that they sound altogether idealistic on paper. But resemble something else entirely when manifested as a physical construct of mankind's desire for power.
It's working in a bureaucracy that makes me so jaded, I hope.
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It's working in a bureaucracy that makes me so jaded, I hope.
I think it was Albert Einstein who once said:- "Bureaucracy is the death of all sound work."
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Yet he never learned how to replace it.
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Yet he never learned how to replace it.
The Chancellor continually orders the bureaucrats all be put up against a wall and shot but strangely, the bureaucracy keep losing the order. :P
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Yet he never learned how to replace it.
His work on a unified field theory apparently took precedence.
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His work on a unified field theory apparently took precedence.
A double failure, then.
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A double failure, then.
It would seem to be an unfortunate misplacement of priorities.
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A double failure, then.
Perhaps.
Though, on the other hand, he's shown today's physicists where not to go with their own attempts at unified field theories.
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I went to San Diego Comic Con with my last attempt at Unified Field Theory. It didn't work, but I still had an awesome time.
I shook Roddy Piper's hand.
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You should probably graduate to theories of everything then.
They allow for every kind of awesome by not being so necessarily restrictive with what they are trying to unify into a whole system.
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I shook Roddy Piper's hand.
Good thing he wasn't out of bubble gum. CONSUME
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Well, there goes everything remotely to do with BattleTech.
So now we're here at the 'inane banter' part of the topic. Every topic ends up here eventually, doesn't it?
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Only part of the thread that matters, really.
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Well, there goes everything remotely to do with BattleTech.
So now we're here at the 'inane banter' part of the topic. Every topic ends up here eventually, doesn't it?
It's page 40. The fact that the main argument didn't degenerate into an Internet Slap Fight after 10-15 posts is an amazing feat. What's happened here is about as rare as being struck by lighting and again as you exit the hospital.
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Perhaps.
Though, on the other hand, he's shown today's physicists where not to go with their own attempts at unified field theories.
Probably the best epitaph for a scientist, really.
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It's page 40. The fact that the main argument didn't degenerate into an Internet Slap Fight after 10-15 posts is an amazing feat. What's happened here is about as rare as being struck by lighting and again as you exit the hospital.
It's weird.
Huge arguments about fictional politics are supposed to end in mutual loathing and copious swearing.
Is this some parallel universe?
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Probably the best epitaph for a scientist, really.
Scientist One:- "Your theory doesn't work."
Scientist Two:- "It's all Einstein's fault."
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It's weird.
Huge arguments about fictional politics are supposed to end in mutual loathing and copious swearing.
Is this some parallel universe?
No, just the wonderous community that is CBT. {>{>
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It's page 40. The fact that the main argument didn't degenerate into an Internet Slap Fight after 10-15 posts is an amazing feat. What's happened here is about as rare as being struck by lighting and again as you exit the hospital.
I blame the mods for letting things come to this point.
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You know, a six hundred post thread on the internet arguing over politics and society...
...and we broke Godwin's Law. :o
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Only part of the thread that matters, really.
+1.
No, just the wonderous community that is CBT. {>{>
Indeed. My friends and I are working on a website. They've been hesitant to attach a forum, which I feel is absolutely necessary. This community is why I'm so married to the idea; I've not met many of you guys, but you are the finest cavalcade of bros, ass-kickers, and Magnificent Bastards on the 'net.
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You know, a six hundred post thread on the internet arguing over politics and society...
...and we broke Godwin's Law. :o
Must resist urge to say National . . . There I got it out of my system without saying the abreviation or full name. Well that's Prime.
No, just the wonderous community that is CBT. {>{>
Honestly, this forum probably is the oddest one on the net considering that we are basically here to discuss a fictional war setting. Flames should be the order of the day. Thanks primarly to the Mod Staff and the rules, the flaming is kept to a minium.
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Flame wars are from the Bad Old Days. :P
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Yeah, I arrived after the end of the Flame War days and new rules started to appear. There are still some remenants of the old Flame Wars such as the AFFSHC threads, but from what I've heard of, they are nothing like they once were.
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They're a match to the Old Flamewars' California wildfire.
How I miss them so.
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Bah, well that's just because you all know each other so well. :P
A bit of new blood will help re-fight the old debates and inject a bit of passion. Now, let me just think of something controversial...
Er. The Word of Blake is just misunderstood! The Clan Invasion would have reached Terra if there had been another wave! Katherine Steiner-Davion was the best choice to rule the FedCom!
Do I have it right?
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Well, sort of. You can argue those, but you will tend to get a discussion rather than a flame war. Sort of like this thread.
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What about the justification of the Reunification War? Every Periphery fan would be on you in a second with pitchforks and torches. ;)
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Both of them
/act ducks and runs.
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What about the justification of the Reunification War? Every Periphery fan would be on you in a second with pitchforks and torches. ;)
I forget the poster that said the Black Warriors carried on the SLDF's traditions of raiding and oppressing Periph worlds quite well.
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What about the justification of the Reunification War? Every Periphery fan would be on you in a second with pitchforks and torches. ;)
And rightly so.
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So, the conclusion of it all is: the Capellans are not evil.
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So, the conclusion of it all is: the Capellans are not evil.
Capellans are not necessarily evil, but the Confederation is.
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Capellans are not necessarily evil, but the Confederation is.
Here we go again....
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So, the conclusion of it all is: the Capellans are not evil.
Correct.
It is not their fault that they live in a state that is, whether you would like to quibble the word 'evil' or not, certainly totalitarian, autocratic, injurious to the personal and civil liberties of its constituent peoples, systemically unjust, a promoter of racist internal policies, and in all other respects generally unpleasant.
Also, the Liao family has cooties.
;)
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I'm still not convinced about the racist internal policies part. You've gotta be kidding me if you're still only using Kuan-yin Allard-Liao's anecdote as the only source. One jerk of an officer does not mean the regime is working to erase all other ethnicity from the realm.
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You mean the comment here (http://www.classicbattletech.com/index.php?action=text&page=Capellan_Confederation)? I thought it was generally understood that Xin Sheng, and the general exaltation of Han culture it entailed, had led to racial discrimination in the Confederation?
What are our other sources anyway? HB:HL p. 62 has a description of Xin Sheng with regard to race, but I am not inclined to trust HB:HL at all. Kuan-Yin's comments should be taken seriously, and I point out that if you look further down that page, the body text says this: Particularly noticeable is the jump in recruitment among Capellans with no Chinese background. Xin Sheng's extreme identification of Capellan with Han Chinese identity leaves non-Chinese Capellans on the outside. Many attempt to compensate for this by proving their Capellan loyalty in the starkest way possible. Han Chinese culture - language, arts, customs and mores - has always been among the brightest threads in the Capellan tapestry. Xin Sheng elevates things Chinese over all other cultural and social influences-in the Chancellor's own words, making the ways and heritage of old China "every Capellan's birthright." By explicitly linking Capellan identity with the culture from which his Liao ancestors sprang, Sun-Tzu is strengthening the psychological hold of the Liao dynasty over the Capellan people, as the embodiment of Chinese culture and virtues. So strongly emphasizing one way of life over others gives the people a sense of security and solidarity: they know who they are and how they are meant to live. Unfortunately, the same emphasis risks turning the "other" into the enemy. Though widespread discrimination against non-Chinese Capellans remains relatively rare, scattered rumors and anecdotes suggest that it may be on the rise.
Relatively rare, perhaps. But on the rise.
Is Xin Sheng racist?
Even if not explicitly, it has uncomfortably racist overtones. Not pleasant, at any rate.
For what it's worth, the Confederation is not the only state that has racial divisions and issues within it. The Combine's bushido is supposedly non-racial now; but the credence given to the concept of gaijin means that they retain widespread discrimination against Combine non-natives. The Germanisation of the Lyran Commonwealth is problematic: as far as I can tell, it effectively was a German Xin Sheng, though it passes without comment now simply by virtue of being so long ago. (The description in HB:HS, p. 116, makes it sound very benign, but it uses all the same rhetoric as Xin Sheng. It was a sign of the earnest love of the people for their oh-so-wonderful leader. It was a form of cultural respect and identification in addition to native cultures, not a replacement. The said native cultures were always honoured and respected by the state. The ruling family just wanted to promote a common national identity. The Xin Sheng apologists say the same things, and insofar as I do not find the arguments in defense of Xin Sheng credible, I do not find the description of the Germanisation of the Commonwealth credible either.) The Suns, of course, have always had the Purge on their consciences, though they score some points because the Purge was not supported by the institutional power structures of the state. And as for the League, well, they are surely the most tolerant institutionally; but, of course, being the League, everyone already hates each other for completely arbitrary reasons, and I'm sure race will be one of them.
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Scattered rumors and anecdotes suggest that it may be on the rise.
Where did we all come up with that general understanding, though? I don't read the emphasizing of Han culture over others as particularly discriminatory--it actually doesn't even make sense to me, because Han culture in itself (in my experience) is actually a mishmash of traditions from all over a sizeable Asian sphere of Terra. I cite the injection of Buddhism into China as an example--though it originated from an "alien" world such as ancient India, with time it became quite popular in China (and Japan), coexisting and then blending with native Daoist ceremonies, Confucian lifestyle, and other pagan traditions.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" didn't really exist over there. No comment on why that is, but I think it does speak to the fact that Han culture isn't really an exclusive, monolithic set of ways to live life. Too many regional differences to pin it down, really.
Honestly, to my knowledge, the tendency to shun "other" ethnicity and cultural modules seems to originate from much smaller and/or more parochial civilizations...the segregation of the pagan Western Roman Empire and Christian Eastern Roman Empire comes to mind. So while I do not deny racism in the Confederation (because, well, in my eyes racism isn't a governmental issue, it's a human issue), I am of the opinion that the fears of rising discrimination are rooted in the inability of certain citizens and people and authors, both in-universe and out-, to be able to separate themselves from their own experiences with changes in culture.
So while much of this forum post had little to do with what's -actually- happening in-universe (We have a case of Not Enough Information again IMO), the Xin Sheng issue did make me go back and wonder again why such a doom-and-gloom conclusion was leapt to in the first place.
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I don't read the emphasizing of Han culture over others as particularly discriminatory--it actually doesn't even make sense to me, because Han culture in itself (in my experience) is actually a mishmash of traditions from all over a sizeable Asian sphere of Terra. I cite the injection of Buddhism into China as an example--though it originated from an "alien" world such as ancient India, with time it became quite popular in China (and Japan), coexisting and then blending with native Daoist ceremonies, Confucian lifestyle, and other pagan traditions.
It is important to note, of course, that the 'Han culture' championed by the Xin Sheng movement by necessity bears little resemblance to the culture of the ancient Han people. Of course the said culture existed in a complex process of change and evolution over millennia, constantly redefining itself under the perpetual assault of foreign cultural influences, never mind those further influences that came from local economic, political, technological, and religious change. This is true for any culture. (And similarly it is true for the Tokugawa ideals of the Draconis Combine, for one example.) As such the 'Han culture' of Xin Sheng is by necessity an idealisation. It is not rooted in solid historical or sociological understanding of ancient China. It is itself a romantic ideal, shaped and conditioned by the unique circumstances of the 31st century Capellan Confederation, and its political, economic, technological, religious, etc., situation.
In this light: of course the emphasis of 'Han culture' won't make sense. Han culture is not the sort of thing that can be emphasised. But that is not the same thing as saying that the Xin Sheng movement cannot have various emphases, nor that these emphases can't have complex social effects, both good and bad. When the proponents of Xin Sheng talk about 'Han culture', they are speaking of an invented set of ideals, perhaps inspired by the history of the ancient Han people; but not in continuity with that history and culture.
Honestly, to my knowledge, the tendency to shun "other" ethnicity and cultural modules seems to originate from much smaller and/or more parochial civilizations...the segregation of the pagan Western Roman Empire and Christian Eastern Roman Empire comes to mind.
I am not certain I follow. Do you take the Roman empire as a small or parochial civilisation? The multicultural and ethnically diverse nature of the Roman empire can hardly be denied.
So while I do not deny racism in the Confederation (because, well, in my eyes racism isn't a governmental issue, it's a human issue)
That seems immensely naive to me. While racism is certainly related to tribal tendencies innate to human nature, it also has to be admitted that governments and institutions can play immensely significant roles in encouraging or discouraging racism. To pick a completely obvious example, I don't think you could dismiss e.g. the Jim Crow laws by saying 'racism isn't a governmental issue, it's a human issue'. Governments are created by humans and they profoundly effect human lives. One of the reasons that racism, not to mention other forms of hostile discrimination, can survive so long is by being systematically reinforced and promoted by institutions of power (including government; though it's not the only one).
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It is not their fault that they live in a state that is, whether you would like to quibble the word 'evil' or not, certainly totalitarian, autocratic, injurious to the personal and civil liberties of its constituent peoples, systemically unjust, a promoter of racist internal policies, and in all other respects generally unpleasant.
Systematically unjust is a matter of opinion, and one whine of racism by Kuan-Yin does not constitute proof. The Chancellor is married to a black-hispanic lady. I'm pretty sure that kills all charges of racism right there, or do you propose that the Capellan government is actively promoting racism against it's future Chancellor, Dao Shen?
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So, the conclusion of it all is: the Capellans are not evil.
You obviously did not learn from the thread.
The conclusion is that there is no consensus, as always.
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I'm guessing the rule there was no discussion of real world politics?
Fair point. I apologise.
Let me restate my point then in a hopefully less contentious way. To MadCapellan: a single anecdote, no matter how highly placed, doesn't counter institutional bias or prejudice. That Sun-Tzu is married to a non-Han woman doesn't clear the Confederation of all possible charges of racism, especially because Naomi Centrella is the ruler of an entire nation and the marriage is immensely politically valuable.
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Let me restate my point then in a hopefully less contentious way. To MadCapellan: a single anecdote, no matter how highly placed, doesn't counter institutional bias or prejudice. That Sun-Tzu is married to a non-Han woman doesn't clear the Confederation of all possible charges of racism, especially because Naomi Centrella is the ruler of an entire nation and the marriage is immensely politically valuable.
The only evidence of an institutional bias or prejudice we have is a single anecdote. Considering that it's utterly illogical for the Chancellor to create or condone a policy which divides the Capellan people when everything he has done seeks to unite them, and which would guarantee loss of respect from the people so indoctrinated for himself, for his wife, and for the future ruler of the Confederation, why would he ever do such a thing? Considering that the only evidence have of said bias is that a single middle-management low-life when backed into a corner by Kuan-Yin says something kinda discriminatory, I'd say that extrapolating from that single incident that institutionalized racism is rampant in the Confederation is nothing more than a fallacious and ludicrous assumption brought on by an anti-Confederation bias and a desire to believe every bit of slander published about said country.
Or are you telling me that I couldn't find someone in all the Federated Suns to say something similar about non-whites?
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I'm guessing the rule there was no discussion of real world politics?
Fair point. I apologise.
Let me restate my point then in a hopefully less contentious way. To MadCapellan: a single anecdote, no matter how highly placed, doesn't counter institutional bias or prejudice. That Sun-Tzu is married to a non-Han woman doesn't clear the Confederation of all possible charges of racism, especially because Naomi Centrella is the ruler of an entire nation and the marriage is immensely politically valuable.
As MadCapellan points out, a single anecdote, especially one from a recently conquered noble with her own ax to grind, isn't evidence of institutional bias or prejudice.
I certainly don't believe that Kuan Yin lied in her story, but individual bias will always exist, such is the imperfect nature of societies. However, institutional racism of the type you attribute to the confederation would entail specific laws and policies that treat individuals differently on the basis of their race. Is there evidence or even mention of such laws or policies? The fact that non-Han individuals are heavily represented at all levels within the Capellan political ruling class and military would suggest that either such laws and policies do not exist or are ineffective. There is a distinction between a fairly tame official state policy of emphasizing one aspect of Capellan culture that many individuals of many races can identify with and appreciate and an official state policy of racism and discrimination.
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As I recall, the fluff regarding the noble ruler of Victoria clearly
indicates that her status is unusual due to her apparently occidental
heritage.
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My "world view" of Battletech in general is that ALL the Successor States are evil- it's just that the Capellan Confederation are my favorite flavor of evil.
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As I recall, the fluff regarding the noble ruler of Victoria clearly
indicates that her status is unusual due to her apparently occidental
heritage.
Was this in the HLHB? The only reference I found to the noble ruler of Victoria was Duchess Abigal O'Hanlon and her niece Annalise O'Hanlon, but it doesn't mention anything about their race.
HLHB p.85
"Victoria’s ruler, Duchess Abigail O’Hanlon, spent much political capital to get her family the rulership of the entire commonality
and herself the commonality’s seat on the Prefectorate. She is often away from Victoria, leaving planetary administration in the
hands of her niece, Diem Annalise O’Hanlon. Duchess Abigail is away so often, in fact, that many in Victoria’s popular media often refer to Annalise as “the young duchess.â€"
Additionally, O'Hanlon does not appear to be unusual in her occidental descent since if you flip through the Atlas, more than half of all the planetary rulers listed do not appear to be of Han descent based on their names alone. In fact, even including Gregory, Hurtong, Candace, and Kali Liao, who are presumably related to the Chancellor, notable planetary nobles of Han descent are actually in the minority.
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It's funny because I'm thumbing through HBHL and checking out the images. While there are a few representing Asian-only looking individuals, some of the important ones do not. For example, the title intro page for Society & Culture showcases seven individuals, only three of which look discernibly Asian in ethnic orientation. The other four look decidedly not. If images are a visual representation of the Confederation, then I'd say they're pretty unbiased.
Then there's this bit in regional views (p.154)..."residents enthusiastically embraced Xin Sheng - especially its Han trappings - in order to curry favor with the government.
Doesn't seem overtly evil or racist, just seems like the Confederation is trying to ensure national harmony through a shared culture. This would be a determining factor in position, not an individual's ethnic or gender.
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I am not certain I follow. Do you take the Roman empire as a small or parochial civilisation? The multicultural and ethnically diverse nature of the Roman empire can hardly be denied.
Sorry, I was kind of talking out of my butt there. I don't have the highest opinion of the clashing of cultures in historical occidental civilizations--would you care to dissuade me from my opinion? A lot of what I recall is tainted by pogroms and stake-burnings and cities named Matamoros ("Kill the Moors") and such.
That seems immensely naive to me. While racism is certainly related to tribal tendencies innate to human nature, it also has to be admitted that governments and institutions can play immensely significant roles in encouraging or discouraging racism. To pick a completely obvious example, I don't think you could dismiss e.g. the Jim Crow laws by saying 'racism isn't a governmental issue, it's a human issue'. Governments are created by humans and they profoundly effect human lives. One of the reasons that racism, not to mention other forms of hostile discrimination, can survive so long is by being systematically reinforced and promoted by institutions of power (including government; though it's not the only one).
Sorry, was typing while half-asleep. I was only throwing out a little side-opinion that racism will always exist as long as human brains can differentiate one thing from another. Much in the way that very large dogs can trigger a natural instinct of fear in humans, so too can the behavior of other humans themselves trigger a sense of dislike.
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Was this in the HLHB? The only reference I found to the noble ruler of Victoria was Duchess Abigal O'Hanlon and her niece Annalise O'Hanlon, but it doesn't mention anything about their race.
her occidental descent since if you flip through the Atlas, more than half of all the planetary rulers listed do not appear to be of Han descent....
From Masters and Minions, I believe. Also, the last name doesn't indicate descent, as Minobu Tetauhara demonstrates amply.
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From Masters and Minions, I believe. Also, the last name doesn't indicate descent, as Minobu Tetauhara demonstrates amply.
She's also hardly the only caucasian depicted amongst the major political figures of the Confederation, either.
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Which is evidence of precisely nothing.
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From Masters and Minions, I believe. Also, the last name doesn't indicate descent, as Minobu Tetauhara demonstrates amply.
Just flipped through and didn't see it. Neither Victoria nor its ruler were profiled in the book, and neither was Shengli Arms. The only reference was to Xavier Bannson, whose company is there.
I would agree that names are not fullproof evidence of descent, but I think they are strong evidence of at the very least mixed heritage based on generally understood genealogical conventions. Minobu Tetsuhara is certainly an example of a case where this such conventions do not apply and they are certainly weaker than they would be today. But taking Masters and Minons as the example since it provides handy profile pictures, the vast majority of individuals profiled in every state tend to have names that reflect a primary ethnic background indicating that present day genealogical conventions have not been entirely invalidated.
I believe the original point I was disputing was that there was institutionalized systematic racism within the Confederation, which I understand to be government laws and policies that treat individuals differently on the basis of their race. The evidence proffered to support this assertion is:
1. One anecdotal story by Kuan Yin Liao regarding an officer's personal racism
2. Rumors
3. The reference Gracus cites on how unusual the O'Hanlons are because of their occidental heritage.
For the sake of argument, assuming that all of the above are accurate, it falls far short of compelling evidence of systematic and institutional racism.
Does the cultural emphasis lead to certain disturbing practices like plastic surgery to reduce folds in the eyes? Sure. In fact, it's happening today since popular standards of beauty today influence Asian women to have the exact opposite procedure making their eyes rounder. Is it sorta creepy? Totally. Is it racism? No.
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I'll find it this week. My wife is about to go into labor, so I'm not checking anytime soon.
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Gracus may be referring to the bit about O'Hanlon from the image-pages [pg. 189 in the PDF] in Handbook: House Liao:-
"Duchess Abigail O’Hanlon, member of the Prefectorate, has spent a long, hard life climbing to the top within the Victoria Commonality in a culture and empire where being female and non-Asian is a liability."
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Which is evidence of precisely nothing.
As is one girl whining about this one guy she met who said something kinda racist. Davionistas are intent on clinging to the notion that the Capellan Confederation is intitutionally racist, when the only evidence of it anywhere in canon is one sob-story which points out exactly one man. Let me tell you, last time I checked, one man does not constitute an institution.
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Let me tell you, last time I checked, one man does not constitute an institution.
The Celestial Throne frowns.
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I'll find it this week. My wife is about to go into labor, so I'm not checking anytime soon.
Congratulations and good luck! NM about finding it, you'll have much more important things to do. [rockon]
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And the suns grow by one more scion.
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And the suns grow by one more scion.
CONGRATS! O0 Preemptive sympathies for the many sleepless nights to come, donno how you guys do it. [cheers]
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I'll find it this week. My wife is about to go into labor, so I'm not checking anytime soon.
I named my daughter Avalon. She just turned 5.
I don't even know what I'd be, if I weren't a father.
Congratulations.
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I'll find it this week. My wife is about to go into labor, so I'm not checking anytime soon.
Congrats, you imperialist Davionista pig. ;) [rockon]
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And the suns grow by one more scion.
Grand well wishes for you and your growing family, Gracus.
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Congratulations Gracus. I hope all goes well and wish your soon to come sleeplessness to not be so bad.
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If it's worth anything from a complete stranger, congratulations from me as well.
It's always wonderful when another life enters the world. I hope he or she brings you joy. :)
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Thank you all for commiserating and understanding. Three days later, she's doing well, louder and hungrier than she is sleepy. With such a voracious appetite, mini-Gracus will undoubtedly be conquering an ancestral Liao holding near you in a few years.
Kudos to Lore for finding the reference I was remembering.
Also, while Kuan Yin's anecdote and the example of O'Hanlon as an exception to the rule do not prove institutional racism, they were not intended to do so. To provide evidence of such would require an appreciable amount of data from cases representatively sampled from the Confederation. BattleTech doesn't give us that. However, these examples are intended to be illustrative of the norm (or of deviance from the norm, in O'Hanlon's case). To suggest that we hold BattleTech products to scientific standards of rigor before we accept information presented within them is to berate Don Quixote for not using a lance of sufficient length as he charges the windmill...
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Also, while Kuan Yin's anecdote and the example of O'Hanlon as an exception to the rule do not prove institutional racism, they were not intended to do so. To provide evidence of such would require an appreciable amount of data from cases representatively sampled from the Confederation. BattleTech doesn't give us that. However, these examples are intended to be illustrative of the norm (or of deviance from the norm, in O'Hanlon's case). To suggest that we hold BattleTech products to scientific standards of rigor before we accept information presented within them is to berate Don Quixote for not using a lance of sufficient length as he charges the windmill...
Yet it flies in the face of the overwhelming evidence we have of numerous of caucasian characters operating within the power structure of the state without issue. Even Kuan-Yin's article takes the tone "I'm not aware that this is the norm, but I'm afraid it might become that way"
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Ethnic Capellan=/= Han Chinese only, but if you are not considered ethnic Capellan they have no problem killing you through the horrible means like those that Barbara the the overly worshipped Liao used, or those used for the horrors of the Night of Screams incident the Republic had to deal with later on in the Dark Age timeline. Barbara was frankly evil. She wanted to see her troops murder civilians and it took her ten days to have her fill on Calloway, but she also got the karmic justice that went with that when the Capellan fleet was shattered later on in that same battle.
If you are ethnic Capellan the CCAF are still quite willing to kill you, they just consider it business and not pleasure. They have to save some fun for the MASK afterall.
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Ethnic Capellan=/= Han Chinese only, but if you are not considered ethnic Capellan they have no problem killing you through the horrible means like those that Barbara the the overly worshipped Liao used, or those used for the horrors of the Night of Screams incident the Republic had to deal with later on in the Dark Age timeline. Barbara was frankly evil. She wanted to see her troops murder civilians and it took her ten days to have her fill on Calloway, but she also got the karmic justice that went with that when the Capellan fleet was shattered later on in that same battle.
If you are ethnic Capellan the CCAF are still quite willing to kill you, they just consider it business and not pleasure. They have to save some fun for the MASK afterall.
You realize the two of us are mostly ignored on this thread, yes?
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I find your contributions most entertaining. Please continue.
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I find your contributions most entertaining. Please continue.
So, if I kept on posting here, you'd be entertained, and if I stopped, you'd be rid of me.
Clearly this forum is actually a circus. Damn, I ought to charge money for this!
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Clearly this forum is actually a circus. Damn, I ought to charge money for this!
More of a Gathering of the Juggalos, really.
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I haven't slept more than 3 hours in each of the past 4 days, so I take my fun where I can get it.
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Wait till you have the second one eleven months from now and that sleep deprivation has lasted two years...dead tired man walking ::)
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So sleepy...
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Given the fact good and evil are incredibly relative and determined by the culture one lives in... doesn't that make this discussion entirely irrelevant?
As a historian i don't go around labelling countries, empires, realms or the likes as 'evil' just for that reason. Morality changes with time and region. And is furthermore defined by the viewpoint of victor or looser. There's no absolute rational/objective way to evaluate it.
So why bother? Let alone in a fictional universe!
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Given the fact good and evil are incredibly relative and determined by the culture one lives in... doesn't that make this discussion entirely irrelevant?
As a historian i don't go around labelling countries, empires, realms or the likes as 'evil' just for that reason. Morality changes with time and region. And is furthermore defined by the viewpoint of victor or looser. There's no absolute rational/objective way to evaluate it.
So why bother? Let alone in a fictional universe!
Because it makes us feel better to label our enemies as evil and ourselves as just and righteous. How many self-described evil empires have there been in history? Yeah.
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Because it makes us feel better to label our enemies as evil and ourselves as just and righteous. How many self-described evil empires have there been in history? Yeah.
Two Death Commandos ponder this. (http://youtu.be/VImnpErdDzA)
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I agree that morality is to some degree subjective. For example, one of the reasons I disagree with Mecha Anchovy's assessment of the Capellan State is because I do not believe that the boundaries of a nation must be purely geographic in nature. In my mind, the Confederation is a glorious post modern State who's planets are merely property, and who's true borders are the citizens that participate in it by choice. I consider the freedom to choose whether or not to participate in the State the ultimate freedom, and sharing responsibility only for those who will take responsibility for you the most sensible and just kind of cooperative possible. Burdening just society with caring for criminals and selfish lowlifes is unjust in and of itself.
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Two Death Commandos ponder this. (http://youtu.be/VImnpErdDzA)
Brilliant.
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Using that logic Pol Pot, Stalin and Mussolini weren't evil mass murderers, just misunderstood. I will refuse to accept that logic for some reason or another. Its interesting that survivors of those leaders will tell you those leaders were evil, but a lot will say they did not know all that was going on until later. Those that ran away to escape sute knew they were evil.
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The whole of the Capellians are not evil, because one persona is! It would like saying all us Scottish wear Kilts and play Bagpipes. I have no bagpipes, (even though I love them) and I wear shorts and dress pants because I do not want to be like the Brass Monkey in winter!
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Using that logic Pol Pot, Stalin and Mussolini weren't evil mass murderers, just misunderstood. I will refuse to accept that logic for some reason or another. Its interesting that survivors of those leaders will tell you those leaders were evil, but a lot will say they did not know all that was going on until later. Those that ran away to escape sute knew they were evil.
No one perfectly agrees on what is moral and what is not, and as there is no way to objectively prove morality, it is subjective, not objective, which was my point. By it's nature, morality is absolute to the individual, but that standard varies from person to person.
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In my mind, the Confederation is a glorious post modern State who's planets are merely property, and who's true borders are the citizens that participate in it by choice.
That doesn't really ring true with your views on Chesterton.
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Given the fact good and evil are incredibly relative and determined by the culture one lives in... doesn't that make this discussion entirely irrelevant?
I don't think that's a fact.
Certainly it is true that opinions about what is good and what is evil vary widely. But it does not follow that we can't make reasonable judgements about morality on some non-arbitrary basis.
I think that I and MadCapellan were having a meaningful debate about the morality of the Capellan state, and even if you think that morality is totally relative (though I do not), the debate was clearly possible in terms of shared values. We both agree, for example, that the state has an inherent obligation to its people, and that the contribution of the people to the state they live in is important in defining that obligation and its limits.
For example, one of the reasons I disagree with Mecha Anchovy's assessment of the Capellan State is because I do not believe that the boundaries of a nation must be purely geographic in nature.
Should 'astrographic' be the correct term here? ;)
Two thoughts here.
Firstly, if you do not think the boundaries of a nation-state are geographic in nature, then where does that leave the claim to Capellan 'ancestral worlds'? If that claim is to be meaningful, then surely there must be some enduring connection between a body of people and a certain geographic area.
Secondly, if a nation-state is defined purely in terms of a group of people, with no reference to geographic holdings, then how do you distinguish a state from other arbitrary groups of people? What makes a nation-state a different type of organisation to, for example, a corporation, or a church, or an artistic movement, or a yachting club? While I'm open to there being nomadic peoples, and thus discourse about a 'gypsy nation' or what have you, these don't seem to be the same type of organisation as a nation-state.
In my mind, the Confederation is a glorious post modern State who's planets are merely property, and who's true borders are the citizens that participate in it by choice.
Whose.
The objection I raised here before, and which is always worth stating again, is that by virtue of that property claim, the Confederation state compels an extremely large group of people to participate in it. The promised 'choice' is an illusion; and ultimately, a tawdry fig-leaf justification for the systematic disenfranchisement and exploitation of billions of people.
Burdening just society with caring for criminals and selfish lowlifes is unjust in and of itself.
As was convincingly demonstrated earlier by others, I feel, the idea that servitors are not productive and do not meaningfully contribute to the economic and social life of the worlds of the Confederation is not defensible.
No one perfectly agrees on what is moral and what is not, and as there is no way to objectively prove morality, it is subjective, not objective, which was my point.
Shall we have a full-bore discussion about moral relativism, or not? It is a rather serious topic to wade into.
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No one perfectly agrees on what is moral and what is not, and as there is no way to objectively prove morality, it is subjective, not objective, which was my point. By it's nature, morality is absolute to the individual, but that standard varies from person to person.
Exactly. I'm not saying good or evil are useless concepts they are merely highly artificial and can be drastically different from society to society.
The fact Stalin and co are bad is from our (shared!) view. But not their own or that of certain periods in history. Hence i find it a bit silly discussing the degree of evilness of a fictional faction, in a fictional era, in a morally dubious setting.
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I haven't slept more than 3 hours in each of the past 4 days, so I take my fun where I can get it.
My newborn is still in NICU, but I feel your pain---my first two are only 17 months apart (and this latest one is only 20 months from my middle child).
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No one perfectly agrees on what is moral and what is not, and as there is no way to objectively prove morality, it is subjective, not objective, which was my point. By it's nature, morality is absolute to the individual, but that standard varies from person to person.
At least not without violating Rule 4.
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On the topic of Capellan worlds - As property misappropriated through force, I have the same expectation they be returned as I do of someone returning a watch stolen from my grandfather to me, or say Eygpt does that European powers return ancient relics which they pilfered.
On the topic of nation-states - The primary difference between the Capellan Confederation and other hypothetical non geographically defined states and a yacht club, boy scout organization, or corporation is that the State is sovereign, beholden to no higher authority.
On the topic of "compulsion" - as I argued earlier, if one does not like the United States, it is not that government's responsibility to pay for your relocation to Canada or other political entity of your choice. Similarly, it is not the responsibility of the Confederation to relocate or provide for those who opt not to participate in it.
On the topic of moral-relativism - You're more than welcome to PM me on the subject, as I relish this sort of intellectual discourse, but I'm not so sure the mods would be to happy with me for dragging out such a sensitive subject.
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Exactly. I'm not saying good or evil are useless concepts they are merely highly artificial and can be drastically different from society to society.
The fact Stalin and co are bad is from our (shared!) view. But not their own or that of certain periods in history. Hence i find it a bit silly discussing the degree of evilness of a fictional faction, in a fictional era, in a morally dubious setting.
Your Drac avatar is duly noted... ;)
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Exactly. I'm not saying good or evil are useless concepts they are merely highly artificial and can be drastically different from society to society.
The fact Stalin and co are bad is from our (shared!) view. But not their own or that of certain periods in history. Hence i find it a bit silly discussing the degree of evilness of a fictional faction, in a fictional era, in a morally dubious setting.
Stalin was well loved in office, no doubt, but when his horrors were revealed after death, monuments of him started being removed in the USSR. There is no secret reason for Stalingrad's renaming while the USSR was still in existence.
Now if you are going to talk accomplishments, no one can argue with how rapidly he industrialized the state. One of the gravest signs of naivete is to fail to understand that all leaders, good, or bad create illusions for their people to judge them by, or frame the situation in a way favoring their views and just because the illusion sounds pretty doesn't mean the truth is.
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Firstly, if you do not think the boundaries of a nation-state are geographic in nature, then where does that leave the claim to Capellan 'ancestral worlds'? If that claim is to be meaningful, then surely there must be some enduring connection between a body of people and a certain geographic area.
It should be noted that while geography can be used as one barometer in distinguishing a historical claim, maintaining cultural or ethnic presence is enough to generate ownership over a given location. The term "reunite" is often used as a precursor or pretense in justification to annex a given area. Germany's annexing of the Sudetenland prior to WWII is a good example of using local ethnic connections to justify a land claim. By the same rational, if a group of ethnic "Capellans" moved en-masse to a world not historically owned by the Confederation there is still a self justifiable bridge between the state and the land claim. In this case the land does not dictate an enduring connection between the people and the land, but rather the state and its people. The land just happens to be wherever said people reside.
Secondly, if a nation-state is defined purely in terms of a group of people, with no reference to geographic holdings, then how do you distinguish a state from other arbitrary groups of people? What makes a nation-state a different type of organisation to, for example, a corporation, or a church, or an artistic movement, or a yachting club? While I'm open to there being nomadic peoples, and thus discourse about a 'gypsy nation' or what have you, these don't seem to be the same type of organisation as a nation-state.
MadCap mentioned sovereignty, but I'd add that while nation-states can be in part defined by its geography, it is theoretically only done out of self determined necessity to establish said boundaries in relation to other entities, be it man-made or otherwise.
A nation without geographic reference or boundaries is no more a gypsy nation than one with clearly defined borders. A gypsy nation denotes transmission or migration of the population body in totality (or majority) without establishing a "permanent" presence in a given location. If a nation-state (as determined by its affiliated peoples) remains in place, but continues to radiate outwards (with or without regard) is only beholden to its own compulsion in determining boundaries.
Just something to stew on...
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Stalin was well loved in office, no doubt, but when his horrors were revealed after death, monuments of him started being removed in the USSR. There is no secret reason for Stalingrad's renaming while the USSR was still in existence.
Now if you are going to talk accomplishments, no one can argue with how rapidly he industrialized the state. One of the gravest signs of naivete is to fail to understand that all leaders, good, or bad create illusions for their people to judge them by, or frame the situation in a way favoring their views and just because the illusion sounds pretty doesn't mean the truth is.
I'm well aware of this. I have a Master in History. So I was not denying the fact he did bad things nor that he remained a 'hero' to the people. After all he's a prime example of 'cult of personality'. I merely meant that depending on time and situation good and evil switch drastically or not at all.
Heck look at WWII. The US had their own agenda desiring a capitalist market and Churchill was trading the lives of entire east european regions with Stalin in return for a return to being a colonial Empire.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were unnecessary but done regardlessly just to show of to Stalin. (bitter irony that it backfired)
Yet the West is depicted as uniformly white, Hitler as the big bad guy. And Stalin was a-okay... until WWII ended.
Evil in varying degrees is still evil. I cannot think of a single country in the world atm that is not 'evil' to a degree from the point of view of traditional Western Christian morality (and quite a few other viewpoints to boot)
Also my avatar could just as well have been a Falcon, a Hellion or another faction I like.
Of the Inner Sphere Houses, the Cappies take slot nr2 together with Steiner.
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Nagasaki and Hiroshima were unnecessary but done regardlessly just to show of to Stalin. (bitter irony that it backfired)
Fairly sure it was done because the US/British were afraid of getting involved in a quagmire in Japan (See Operation Downfall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall)). The Japanese were basically hoping that the fear of a quagmire of invading the Japanese mainland would force the US and English to accept a conditional surrender with terms acceptable to them.
Heck look at WWII. The US had their own agenda desiring a capitalist market and Churchill was trading the lives of entire east european regions with Stalin in return for a return to being a colonial Empire.
Churchill was actually venemously opposed to peace with the Soviet Union, and wanted to do in Stalin just like Hitler. However, at the time both the US and the other UK politicians were sick of war, and once the Allied forces had realized that the Soviets had a strong ground advantage over them (which means the only way the Allies could have won would be spamming nukes), Churchill was forced to relent. Read Operation Unthinkable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable).
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I have seen plenty of arguments over the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
I do not care for the view that the bombing was unnecessary, millions of lives would likely have
been lost in a conventional invasion. That those two cities had to suffer as they did is awful, that
they did to prevent countless other deaths did and should mean something to all of us.
Churchill though, i think we can all understand his fear of Russia. We should also understand the
extreme difficulty in dealing with Stalin on the matter of Poland and other Russian hegemony. To
some degree there was a tradeoff, Greece comes to mind as an example of Russia backing off. I
see no issue with contingency planning. Stalins record in the Baltics and Finland before the war, would
make anyone a touch cautious.
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Fairly sure it was done because the US/British were afraid of getting involved in a quagmire in Japan (See Operation Downfall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall)). The Japanese were basically hoping that the fear of a quagmire of invading the Japanese mainland would force the US and English to accept a conditional surrender with terms acceptable to them.
Churchill was actually venemously opposed to peace with the Soviet Union, and wanted to do in Stalin just like Hitler. However, at the time both the US and the other UK politicians were sick of war, and once the Allied forces had realized that the Soviets had a strong ground advantage over them (which means the only way the Allies could have won would be spamming nukes), Churchill was forced to relent. Read Operation Unthinkable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable).
You do know the backroom dealings CHurchill and Stalin had right? My Professor of International History went deeply into it but basically Churchill and Stalin made the following deal:
Stalin could do as he pleased on his side and the English would support his actions in East Europe, in return Stalin would support the restoration of the English influence in their bits of the world (Greece for one - we all know what happened there)
Churchill just backtracked when he was told of the nuclear option. Which in turn led to the diplomatic gambit linked to Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Don't take me wrong, Churchill is my favourite statesman in WWII. He was however outdated by the times. A brilliant charismatic leader but one who still thought in terms of 19th century colonialism.
But i'm drifting of, i merely meant... Churchill was more than willing to sacrifice the lives of many innocents just to protect his own. Might not be concentrationcamps but it certainly wasn't the sort of politics belonging to the lightside of the force.
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I have seen plenty of arguments over the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
I do not care for the view that the bombing was unnecessary, millions of lives would likely have
been lost in a conventional invasion. That those two cities had to suffer as they did is awful, that
they did to prevent countless other deaths did and should mean something to all of us.
Churchill though, i think we can all understand his fear of Russia. We should also understand the
extreme difficulty in dealing with Stalin on the matter of Poland and other Russian hegemony. To
some degree there was a tradeoff, Greece comes to mind as an example of Russia backing off. I
see no issue with contingency planning. Stalins record in the Baltics and Finland before the war, would
make anyone a touch cautious.
In correct in the circles of historians it has become a widely accepted fact that the US was well aware that Japan was willing to surrender. Only the Emperor was to stay, the fascist leadership was willing to give themself over. The view that one would have had to fight for every inch of Japanese soil is slowly being changed. Popular historiography apparently does not change.
The bombs needed a testrun. So that was ignored.
The plan backfired, when the American president at the last conference used the nukes as a bargainingchip, Stalin reacted the opposite from what one expected, he became actually harder to deal with and far more defensive.
What makes it rather awkward and bitter is that like all realpolitik (which is necessary in wartimes and post it) things changed and post WWII the Emperor remained and the regime didn't really change much either.
Not saying those were bad choices at the time but they were calculated 'evils' from a moral point of view.
Feel free to disagree with me but that is my interpretation as a historian. And the one upheld by many historians in the scientific circles.
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Dude, no offense, but "historians in scientific circles" are of more minds on any given subject than are scientists in "scientific circles", and they don't tend to agree on much more than some general percieved accuracy of Newtonian Physics.
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In correct in the circles of historians it has become a widely accepted fact that the US was well aware that Japan was willing to surrender. Only the Emperor was to stay, the fascist leadership was willing to give themself over.
The Japanese government still did not react to the Potsdam Declaration. Emperor Hirohito, the government, and the war council were considering four conditions for surrender: the preservation of the kokutai (Imperial institution and national polity), assumption by the Imperial Headquarters of responsibility for disarmament and demobilization, no occupation of the Japanese Home Islands, Korea, or Formosa, and delegation of the punishment of war criminals to the Japanese government.
Source: H. Bix, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, 2001, p. 512.
This was after the Hiroshima bombing, by the way.
More Reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokusatsu)
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Dude, no offense, but "historians in scientific circles" are of more minds on any given subject than are scientists in "scientific circles", and they don't tend to agree on much more than some general percieved accuracy of Newtonian Physics.
There's a quote [that I can't distinctly recall at the moment] from Hegel's Elements of the Philosophy of Right that would usually underline this point perfectly.
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My newborn is still in NICU, but I feel your pain---my first two are only 17 months apart (and this latest one is only 20 months from my middle child).
I hope all is well.
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I hope all is well.
Yeah. They unplugged him from everything---C-PAP, oxygen, IV, feeding tube, and phototherapy, and are talking about discharging him on Thursday.
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I'm well aware of this. I have a Master in History. So I was not denying the fact he did bad things nor that he remained a 'hero' to the people. After all he's a prime example of 'cult of personality'. I merely meant that depending on time and situation good and evil switch drastically or not at all.
Heck look at WWII. The US had their own agenda desiring a capitalist market and Churchill was trading the lives of entire east european regions with Stalin in return for a return to being a colonial Empire.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were unnecessary but done regardlessly just to show of to Stalin. (bitter irony that it backfired)
Yet the West is depicted as uniformly white, Hitler as the big bad guy. And Stalin was a-okay... until WWII ended.
Evil in varying degrees is still evil. I cannot think of a single country in the world atm that is not 'evil' to a degree from the point of view of traditional Western Christian morality (and quite a few other viewpoints to boot)
Spoken like a true academic. Stalin made Hitler look like an Altar Boy. Who is more evil? The leader who orders extermination or the minions who carry out such incomprehensible brutality? We go after the leaders because it is logistically impossible to prosecute entire populations for carrying out their murderous directives.
You are taking bits, pieces, and trivial facts devoid of context as though they were the defining events of the period. Due to the Great Depression, many sympathized with the tenants of communism to include FDR who loved "Uncle Joe," sold him the farm in terms of post-war agreements, and never thought ill of him even as Stalin manipulated the entire situation to his advantage. "The U.S. had their own agenda"...don't be ridiculous. Everybody to include nation-states has their own interests. What does that have to do with Good and Evil?
Venona showed how Stalin's agents had heavily infiltrated the West and they worked tirelessly for a conclusion to the war most favorable to Russia. Regardless of FDR's poor character judgement, enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend. After Pearl Harbor and the subsequent declarations of war on the U.S. by both Japan and Germany, Russia became a rather inappropriate ally. Was the West morally perfect in all that they did? Of course not, but compared to Hitler's Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, they certainly were "uniformly white."
In correct in the circles of historians it has become a widely accepted fact that the US was well aware that Japan was willing to surrender. Only the Emperor was to stay, the fascist leadership was willing to give themself over. The view that one would have had to fight for every inch of Japanese soil is slowly being changed. Popular historiography apparently does not change.
The bombs needed a testrun. So that was ignored.
The plan backfired, when the American president at the last conference used the nukes as a bargainingchip, Stalin reacted the opposite from what one expected, he became actually harder to deal with and far more defensive.
What makes it rather awkward and bitter is that like all realpolitik (which is necessary in wartimes and post it) things changed and post WWII the Emperor remained and the regime didn't really change much either.
Not saying those were bad choices at the time but they were calculated 'evils' from a moral point of view.
Did the U.S. have indications some elements in Japan were considering surrender? Yes. Did the Japanese military stop fighting? No. You claim intelligence of whatever value could somehow compare to the resistance and resulting casualty figures demonstrated on Iwo Jima and Okinawa in particular? The bombs had already been tested. Stalin was not surprised by the news of the atom bombs because his agents had already infiltrated the program. But for the unpredictability of U.S. elections, one of his agents might have been elected POTUS.
Your "widely accepted facts" are anything but...
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They intercepted transmissions that indicated they would surrender. They did not act on them.
It would be better to play it safe AND get to test their bomb.
Strategically sound. Morally not. Not that I would have done it differently. They had no reason to believe that Stalin would react as he did. (he was quite the stubborn fellow) And the hatred for the Japanese was more than big enough to get away with it.
And I am aware Stalin was aware of the situation. He even hurried his own program as a consequence but the allies were not aware of how he'd react.
Granted it's been 3 years since I last took that class and I'm specialized in the Middle Ages but it always stuck with me how Professor Kerremans explicitly stated archives proved this.
It is true that the Japanese began training militia to fight to the last man with improvized bombs etc as Professor Van De Walle underlines. However this resolve came from the fact that they could not allow the Imperial throne to be abolished.
Though I suspect we may be 'slightly' deviating from the topic at hand. To get it back on track. My point merely is that branding a faction as evil can only happen from the perspective of another faction who ignores it's own villainy. As all nations have done throughout history.
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Dude, no offense, but "historians in scientific circles" are of more minds on any given subject than are scientists in "scientific circles", and they don't tend to agree on much more than some general percieved accuracy of Newtonian Physics.
LOL more or less. Let's say there are the anglosaxon historians, the French, the American circles etc.
They too are contaminated by historical bias all too often. Look at how anglosaxon history has demonized Hitler and embedded some gross errors regarding the way some wars began and why during the Napoleonic era.
Subjectivity will always be somewhat present.
So let me rephrase it, they're moving to a certain concensus on the matter and the traditional view is getting flack regarding it's typical onesided view 'It had to be done!'.
Then again WWII historiography is slowly getting more nuanced. As the scars slowly fade people can take some distance from it all. Not that long ago the allies were still uniformly portrayed as Saints and the Western front overrated.
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Yeah. They unplugged him from everything---C-PAP, oxygen, IV, feeding tube, and phototherapy, and are talking about discharging him on Thursday.
Excellent news!
Spoken like a true academic.
Seriously? As an academic, that's awfully condescending.
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Though I suspect we may be 'slightly' deviating from the topic at hand. To get it back on track. My point merely is that branding a faction as evil can only happen from the perspective of another faction who ignores it's own villainy. As all nations have done throughout history.
I can talk about BT factions as evil, and not only do I write from my own perspective, not that of another faction, I have in this topic been perfectly willing to condemn other factions where appropriate.
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I figured it out... it's quite simple, actually.
Those <random semi-racist insults> over there I was sent to shoot? They're evil. They <list of random offenses> and <lies and hyperbole>.
I'm the good guy. My faction had to <list of atrocities and injustices> out of necessity. Those <more insults and slurs> over there made us come here.
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They intercepted transmissions that indicated they would surrender.
Got a source for that?
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http://slantchev.ucsd.edu/courses/nss/lectures/11-strategy-of-containment.pdf
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That source never mentions that the Japanese were willing to accept unconditional surrender. If anything, it fits my previous point that the Japanese were attempting to force the Americans to accept peace terms more favorable to them (Page 3-4).
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That source never mentions that the Japanese were willing to accept unconditional surrender. If anything, it fits my previous point that the Japanese were attempting to force the Americans to accept peace terms more favorable to them (Page 3-4).
You misread my statement. I said EXCEPT for the Japanese Throne which had to remain.
The official stance of the US was everyone had to go. Which is a credible statement even if it counterspoken by their post WWII actions.
As for the direct source I can't give that here as I said my library is more medieval. But it's in the coursebook of Professor Kerremans (Catholic University Leuven - International Politics from 1945 (actually begins in 1943)).
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That directly contradicts my sources, though, which state that the Japanese had more demands which would have been unacceptable to the Americans.
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1. There is no broad consensus, even among highly respected historians, on the use of the atomic bombs.
2. It's pretty much a rule four situation here.
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That source never mentions that the Japanese were willing to accept unconditional surrender. If anything, it fits my previous point that the Japanese were attempting to force the Americans to accept peace terms more favorable to them (Page 3-4).
I did not post it for proof of will for unconditional surrender, I know better than that. I posted it as an easy access source for people since it discusses some topics that are currently in debate here. I guess I should have distinguished it after looking at the post above it.
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That directly contradicts my sources, though, which state that the Japanese had more demands which would have been unacceptable to the Americans.
Is it possible that my prof referred to intercepted messages post these demands and/or these demands could've been a first bid and/or this might have been the Japanese 'official' stance.
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1. There is no broad consensus, even among highly respected historians, on the use of the atomic bombs.
Not true! It is almost universally accepted that atomic bombs were, in fact, used.
;)
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Not true! It is almost universally accepted that atomic bombs were, in fact, used.
;)
I don't even believe Japan's a real place.
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I don't even believe Japan's a real place.
Are you sure you aren't confusing that with the Netherlands? Suuuure Peter Pan flew there with fairy dust. More likely someone was smoking angel dust instead....
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I don't even believe Japan's a real place.
I spent two weeks there and I'm still not sure it was real. My hope is that when I die, my soul will travel to someplace similarly festooned with manga cafes, 10 yen arcades, people who politely queue for everything, and bubbly pop idols.
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I spent two weeks there and I'm still not sure it was real. My hope is that when I die, my soul will travel to someplace similarly festooned with manga cafes, 10 yen arcades, people who politely queue for everything, and bubbly pop idols.
10 yen arcades? I must have been on the wrong end of Honshu.
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10 yen arcades? I must have been on the wrong end of Honshu.
You've got to get down into the little neighborhoods. I was staying in Kotake-Mukaihara, and they had this little neighborhood arcade full of older arcade machines. Since none of the games were newer then four years old, all the machines were 10 yen a play. Kept the arcade busy despite the lack of newer games. I was told that such arcades aren't too unusual.
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You've got to get down into the little neighborhoods. I was staying in Kotake-Mukaihara, and they had this little neighborhood arcade full of older arcade machines. Since none of the games were newer then four years old, all the machines were 10 yen a play. Kept the arcade busy despite the lack of newer games. I was told that such arcades aren't too unusual.
I was under the impression that Iwakuni was a little neighborhood, and I never saw such things. Granted, my sojourn was over a decade ago.
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I was under the impression that Iwakuni was a little neighborhood, and I never saw such things. Granted, my sojourn was over a decade ago.
Maybe it's a Tokyo phenomenon. Were you in the Corps? I never had you pegged as a jarhead, although it certainly explains a few things!
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Maybe it's a Tokyo phenomenon. Were you in the Corps? I never had you pegged as a jarhead, although it certainly explains a few things!
My paternal grandmother's family is from Iwakuni, although you would be the first to assume that I am a jarhead based on my familiarity with MCAS Iwakuni. I have no direct connection to the Corps, other than being a fan. Actually, my entire family is from places throughout Yamaguchi-ken.
In a related topic, I recently met Charlie_Tango in person and surprised him. He never pictured me as ethnic Japanese in a swanky red Hawaiian shirt. He thought I'd look more like...Chunga, I guess.
He confessed that my physical appearance is how he's always pictured you, although 3CL has assured me that you do not look anything like me.
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If you're familiar with Mobile Suit Gundam, you'd being doing okay assuming I looked like a younger Ramba Ral.
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Ah! There was a restaurant on the far side of the school near Kotake-Mukaihara's train station that I loved. Damn, that brings back memories!
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If you're familiar with Mobile Suit Gundam, you'd being doing okay assuming I looked like a younger Ramba Ral.
I'm not vury familiar with the animu, as I'm sure 3CL's brother can tell you, so I'm just going to pretend you said Rambo John instead.
Which makes me wonder if John Rambo would've been a CCAF soldier or an AFFS soldier.
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That said, the last time I was in Tokyo was over 20 years ago (I think). I don't remember much except for whining at my grandmother for making me carry the steaks that she brought over for me to eat because I hated Japanese food at the time.
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Which makes me wonder if John Rambo would've been a CCAF soldier or an AFFS soldier.
CCAF.
If you've seen First Blood, you KNOW the poor bastard has Hopeless Battle Syndrome.
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I never had you pegged as a jarhead, although it certainly explains a few things!
Wait a minute, how does me hypothetically being in the Corps explain anything?
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I'm not vury familiar with the animu, as I'm sure 3CL's brother can tell you, so I'm just going to pretend you said Rambo John instead.
*sighs* I guess I'm obligated to provide photos now. From our campaign blog:
http://www.ourbattletech.com/2011/introducing-the-hexare-grenadiers-campaign/ (http://www.ourbattletech.com/2011/introducing-the-hexare-grenadiers-campaign/)
From left to right is KitdeSummersville, Youngblood, my wife MrsCapellan, myself in the dashing beret, the elusive male magical girl BlancManche, and Klinktastic.
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Wait a minute, how does me hypothetically being in the Corps explain anything?
Just the trollin'. mostly. ;)
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*sighs* I guess I'm obligated to provide photos now. From our campaign blog:
http://www.ourbattletech.com/2011/introducing-the-hexare-grenadiers-campaign/ (http://www.ourbattletech.com/2011/introducing-the-hexare-grenadiers-campaign/)
From left to right is KitdeSummersville, Youngblood, my wife MrsCapellan, myself in the dashing beret, the elusive male magical girl BlancManche, and Klinktastic.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I pictured you, 'cept without the mustache.
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He's been without the mustache before. Starts to look much less like a BattleTech player then.
Also I don't usually shave my head. Or slouch. Or tilt my head to the side. I think I was posing or something for another camera, two people took that picture.
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Just the trollin'. mostly. ;)
I would have to violate Rules 1 and 3 to do that, and I've only broken those once, to the best of my knowledge. :D
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Also I don't usually shave my head. Or slouch. Or tilt my head to the side. I think I was posing or something for another camera, two people took that picture.
I just thought you were shooting for an Akiyuki Shinbo angle for that picture.
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In a related topic, I was a bit disappointed that THE MadCapellan nor THE Neko Bijin did not make a guest appearance at GenCon 2010 OR GenCon 2011.
I had to settle for Precentor Mu/Psi XXIV and squirtduck, and man, were those two arrogant.
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THE MadCapellan was diverted by the emergency need to purchase a new computer, which killed discretionary spending. It is my strong intent to make it to Gencon 2012, for those who will be in attendence.
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THE MadCapellan was diverted by the emergency need to purchase a new computer, which killed discretionary spending.
For TWO YEARS?
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You got two years of Kit, what more could you possibly want?
;)
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They intercepted transmissions that indicated they would surrender. They did not act on them.
It would be better to play it safe AND get to test their bomb.
Strategically sound. Morally not. Not that I would have done it differently. They had no reason to believe that Stalin would react as he did. (he was quite the stubborn fellow) And the hatred for the Japanese was more than big enough to get away with it.
And I am aware Stalin was aware of the situation. He even hurried his own program as a consequence but the allies were not aware of how he'd react.
Granted it's been 3 years since I last took that class and I'm specialized in the Middle Ages but it always stuck with me how Professor Kerremans explicitly stated archives proved this.
It is true that the Japanese began training militia to fight to the last man with improvized bombs etc as Professor Van De Walle underlines. However this resolve came from the fact that they could not allow the Imperial throne to be abolished.
Though I suspect we may be 'slightly' deviating from the topic at hand. To get it back on track. My point merely is that branding a faction as evil can only happen from the perspective of another faction who ignores it's own villainy. As all nations have done throughout history.
Why should they act on them? It is clear to me you have no experience with warfare. Regardless, intercepted transmissions don't constitute surrender and no one is obligated to go out of their way to induce it. Win and they will give up. I'm somewhat amazed that one college class three years ago with one professor in a time period that is not your forte by your own admission is enough for you accept it as the Gospel.
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Wait, I thought this thread was about the Capellans? Not that I don't love the WWII history and all...
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The Capellans didn't do so well in World War II.
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Too busy being occupied by the Combine, yeah.
I wonder how that would go down in BattleTech.
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I don't know, running roughshod over Tharkad was pretty cool. I always enjoy taken it to the Elsies.
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The Capellan Confederation is not evil.
The Capellan people are not evil.
It is the Liao family that is evil.
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How come there is a The Capellans are not evil thread, but no the Federated Suns is not evil, Draconis Combine is not evil, Free Worlds League is not evil, or Lyran Commonwealth is not evil? >:(
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Because it was a silly thread to start out with.
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How come there is a The Capellans are not evil thread, but no the Federated Suns is not evil, Draconis Combine is not evil, Free Worlds League is not evil, or Lyran Commonwealth is not evil? >:(
In certain cases, the evil is self-evident. In others, it's murky whether it's evil or idiocy.
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In certain cases, the evil is self-evident. In others, it's murky whether it's evil or idiocy.
Why can't it be both?
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Why can't it be both?
Evil requires a mens rea that idiocy tends to obliterate. Not guilty by reason of stupidity.
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The FedSuns is evil, we just hide it the best :P
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How come there is a The Capellans are not evil thread, but no the Federated Suns is not evil, Draconis Combine is not evil, Free Worlds League is not evil, or Lyran Commonwealth is not evil? >:(
You should have seen the IMPAACT thread I created several years ago.
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How come there is a The Capellans are not evil thread, but no the Federated Suns is not evil, Draconis Combine is not evil, Free Worlds League is not evil, or Lyran Commonwealth is not evil? >:(
Because we aren't in denial.
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Because it was a silly thread to start out with.
I'm surprised this didn't come up earlier.
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I'm surprised this didn't come up earlier.
Come on, the fifty pages of worked up Davionistas was totally worth it. It's been forever since we've actually had any degree of true intellectual sparring on this site. I missed the intelligent conversation. This thread was fantastic, and it's all thanks to Hikagemaru and others who participated! Thanks, guys!
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I can agree with the intelligent conversation, as that was largely the only reason why I'd previously checked in on this discussion. It's just unfortunate that I've so little time to spare here these days, as it was something I felt that I could've contributed to more fully.
But I could have done without the worked up Davionistas. It just isn't as amusing as it used to be.
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Come on, the fifty pages of worked up Davionistas was totally worth it. It's been forever since we've actually had any degree of true intellectual sparring on this site. I missed the intelligent conversation. This thread was fantastic, and it's all thanks to Hikagemaru and others who participated! Thanks, guys!
Well, it was you and Mecha-Anchovy that really made this a great thread. I was checking this thread multiple times per day to see how the debate was going.
Back in the 1990s I was in the stereotypical "Natasha-Kerensky-Is-Awesome-and-Hot" phase. I literally forgot about Battletech in college and then I heard that FASA shut down and I thought the game was dead. When a buddy of mine showed me that Battletech is, in fact, not dead back in fall 2009, and I began to reexamine the universe, I knew I had outgrown the Wolf's Dragoons phase. At first, I was disgusted with the Capellans, but my friend Matt presented a compelling argument that the Capellans are really the best yet least understood faction (as I asked him why he wanted me to paint some Mechs for him in Capellan colors). It didn't take long for me to realize that he was right. Hence, I started this thread as a precursor to my declaration that I am, in fact, a son of the Confederation. You, MadCap, demonstrated to me that I made the right decision.
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What I don't understand is the reasoning the people who want to put Capellan fans into the same basket as Dragoon fans. Why are -we- painted as so immature? Why not any other faction that believes its will must be done?
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I have never understood why anyone would wanna put someone down for liking a certain faction, regardless of who that faction may be. I can understand the teasing and friendly put downs but beyond that it makes no sense. Who cares if a faction is munchy or full of fiat? All that matters is that you're having fun.
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But I could have done without the worked up Davionistas. It just isn't as amusing as it used to be.
I agree. Something...just isn't the same.
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Who cares if a faction is munchy or full of fiat? All that matters is that you're having fun.
Because some people get jealous of fans of other factions having more fun than they themselves are having. :(
Whether that speaks to the kind of people they are, or whether some blame can be placed on BattleTech developers themselves is a more complicated question.
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Whether that speaks to the kind of people they are, or whether some blame can be placed on BattleTech developers themselves is a more complicated question.
Perhaps those responsible for fleshing out the BattleTech universe did their job TOO well if people are getting raw over factions that really have no effect on gameplay.
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Perhaps those responsible for fleshing out the BattleTech universe did their job TOO well if people are getting raw over factions that really have no effect on gameplay.
A good movie draws the audience in so that they empathize and identify with the main character or characters. The Battletech universe is like that---it draws you in and, if you're really in to it, you begin to identify yourself with a faction.
That's my theory.
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My faction identifies with me, thank you.
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My faction identifies with me, thank you.
If by "identify" you mean "kill off the Steiner supported by", then yes.
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Could be worse. They could become (shudder) novel characters.
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A good movie draws the audience in so that they empathize and identify with the main character or characters. The Battletech universe is like that---it draws you in and, if you're really in to it, you begin to identify yourself with a faction.
That's my theory.
It's not a bad theory at that.
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A good movie draws the audience in so that they empathize and identify with the main character or characters. The Battletech universe is like that---it draws you in and, if you're really in to it, you begin to identify yourself with a faction.
That's my theory.
I don't know about that; I started off as a Liao/Star Adder fan and now I'm fairly neutral.
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I don't know about that; I started off as a Liao/Star Adder fan and now I'm fairly neutral.
Well, there are various factors to what brings people to stop liking a faction, or even the concept of sci-fi faction association in general.
Which is a good question! What usually persuades people to -stop- enjoying a faction? Is it peer pressure? Is it "growing up?" Is it the conflict that happens all the time? Is it the lack of a faction's performance? What gets you, and people you know, disillusioned?
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I never stopped liking the Cappies and Star Adders; I just started liking lots of other factions just as much. I guess I realized there are interesting aspects of every faction, so why be a partisan? Representing your team on the forums is fun, but it just ain't for me bro.
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I guess I realized there are interesting aspects of every faction, so why be a partisan?
Mostly because I enjoy roleplaying and a good socratic debate. I do agree with you though, at least in theory. An ideal game universe has every faction being fun and interesting.
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Mostly because I enjoy roleplaying and a good socratic debate. I do agree with you though, at least in theory. An ideal game universe has every faction being fun and interesting.
Pretty much every faction has something I enjoy. Even the factions I "don't like," there is something I like about them. I mean, hey, a planet is a big place, and each faction has more than one planet, right? Lots of room to find stuff!
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I guess I realized there are interesting aspects of every faction, so why be a partisan? Representing your team on the forums is fun, but it just ain't for me bro.
Well said!
My long experience with playing the table-top BT game [which employs a rotation-based factional selection methodology -- so that each and every player has an opportunity to assume the role of each and every major faction at least once a year] has ensured that I've come to realise a great deal of neat stuff about non-Capellan factions that I might have otherwise ignored or missed completely.
So while I may tend toward Capellan-centric-ism on these boards [MadCap captures my reasoning for that with his roleplaying/debate tidbit above], I applaud any and all who find something to love beyond their usually-inclined factional choices.
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I think it's fun to, jovially, call people Fedrats.
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Having not been able ta play the game for a while, my main faction experiences have been through the TROs, Source Books, and so on. Thus I've pretty much stuck with my favorite factions (the Terran Hegemony, ELH, and FedSuns in order of preference). That said, I find that most every faction has something that appeals ta me. I enjoy the friendly teasing I've seen on here but then I'm probably not your normal FedSuns fan boy. While I have not drunk the 'The FedSuns should lose a bunch of their planets and give them to my faction! THEN they'll stop being broken!' KoolAid, I don't mind their losses suffered in the Dark Age. In fact I hope that either said losses or additional losses suffered will shock the populace and they'll rise up shouting "We tried peace and THIS is what we got to show for it!" Topple the regime and place a more militaristic Davion on the throne (I don't know if Caleb is militaristic or not but from what I've heard of him he needs ta go regardless), and then storm out of their boarders and start conquering like it's 3028.
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I agree. Something...just isn't the same.
BrianDavion isn't here.
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BrianDavion isn't here.
Ha! The same thing crossed my mind! Thanks for putting it to text.
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I'm here! [drool]
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At first it was because I wanted to bring them up from being the underdogs, then I grew to love arguing in favor of the Capellans and started to become a fanatic for them.
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I think it's fun to, jovially, call people Fedrats.
I prefer "Federasts", but I believe that term is frowned upon in these parts.
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I prefer "Federasts", but I believe that term is frowned upon in these parts.
I really shouldn't be laughing at that, and yet here I am. ;D
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I prefer "Federasts", but I believe that term is frowned upon in these parts.
I use it too. It conveys my contempt adequately.
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I've heard some use the term "Fedophile". :: shrugs ::
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I use it too. It conveys my contempt adequately.
Come now, we all know your contempt will never be conveyed adequately with mere words.
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Come now, we all know your contempt will never be conveyed adequately with mere words.
True enough, lasers and missiles will have to do :)
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Come now, we all know your contempt will never be conveyed adequately with mere words.
This is the reason why astrophysicists are so desperate to discover the secrets of extra dimensions. Because they know that the only way to save our universe is to define new theories of reality which allow 7-to-11 dimensions -- and, thus, provide the "room" necessary for the existence of such reality-breaking contempt.
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This is the reason why astrophysicists are so desperate to discover the secrets of extra dimensions. Because they know that the only way to save our universe is to define new theories of reality which allow 7-to-11 dimensions -- and, thus, provide the "room" necessary for the existence of such reality-breaking contempt.
The secrets of Kearny and Fuchida revealed.
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No wonder BattleTech is A Time of War. JumpShips are powered by the comtempt of a Once and Future Furillan.
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No wonder BattleTech is A Time of War. JumpShips are powered by the comtempt of a Once and Future Furillan.
Furillans don't have too much contempt. It's just that the rest of the universe does everything so small, including the contempt!
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So when is the Confederation going to liberate Chesterton? In the Dark Ages?
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So when is the Confederation going to liberate Chesterton? In the Dark Ages?
About the time that the rest of the Inner Sphere recognizes the legitimacy of the Clans to rule the Inner Sphere in the name of the Star League.
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So when is the Confederation going to liberate Chesterton? In the Dark Ages?
Eh. This lingering issue was finally settled in Handbook: House Davion. I don't see why we need to rehash it now.
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Eh. This lingering issue was finally settled in Handbook: House Davion. I don't see why we need to rehash it now.
I don't think so. The question wasn't "When did the Davions conquer Chesterton?", it was "when will the Capellan Confederation liberate Chesterton?" I'm pretty sure Daoshen was mentioned as targeting the world for military operations in one of the last Dark Age novels, so I'm hoping pretty soon!
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Furillans don't have too much contempt. It's just that the rest of the universe does everything so small, including the contempt!
That goes for everything, though. We're just a little undermatched by all of existence when it comes to "things" and "actions."
Except for losing. I seem to have completely forgotten how to do that.
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I don't think so. The question wasn't "When did the Davions conquer Chesterton?", it was "when will the Capellan Confederation liberate Chesterton?" I'm pretty sure Daoshen was mentioned as targeting the world for military operations in one of the last Dark Age novels, so I'm hoping pretty soon!
What's left on Chesterton to bring into (notice I didn't say "back") the Confederation? It's a bit difficult to defend as a resource world or a trade center, since it's a jump away from danger. No military factories, either.
"Why, the Capellan people that were once disallowed from becoming Capellan, of course!"
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About the time that the rest of the Inner Sphere recognizes the legitimacy of the Clans to rule the Inner Sphere in the name of the Star League.
I reckon only House Davion has that right, eh?
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I reckon only House Davion has that right, eh?
If House Liao is stubborn enough to still claim worlds they haven't held for centuries, why are they going to magically relinquish claims to worlds they HAVE held for centuries to subhumans?
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I'm pretty sure Daoshen was mentioned as targeting the world for military operations in one of the last Dark Age novels, so I'm hoping pretty soon!
Do you recall which novel?
I'm behind in my reading of the DA novels, so I'll admit I wasn't aware of this development regarding Chesterton.
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Do you recall which novel?
I'm behind in my reading of the DA novels, so I'll admit I wasn't aware of this development regarding Chesterton.
I want to say it was Principles of Desolation, but it's been a while.
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Do you recall which novel?
I'm behind in my reading of the DA novels, so I'll admit I wasn't aware of this development regarding Chesterton.
I'd guess either Sword of Sedition or Fortress Republic.
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I'm pretty sure Daoshen was mentioned as targeting the world for military operations in one of the last Dark Age novels, so I'm hoping pretty soon!
Wouldn't that be something? Something tells me that the Hargreaves won't be ruling it, though.
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I'd guess either Sword of Sedition or Fortress Republic.
Where's my Scroll of Summon Roosterboy?
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Okay, at least for me the boards have been either flame wars or kinda slow. We need a good Capellan debate to liven things up. Nothing really comes to mind, but anything that'll get our good citizens to extol on the virtues of the Capellan Confederation would be awesome. Any ideas?
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Privyet!
How about the fact that the Capellans are just as patriotic and loyal to their state. and have officers that are just as innovative and clever as the rest of the IS?
For instance, Warrior House Ma-Tsu Kai? It was founded by a man who was not a Mech-warrior but a historian-philosopher. He trained as a mech-warrior as he taught philosophy and history to the members of his house. Note also that he received his commission from Maximilian. The House was wiped out during the Jihad but broke the back of a Wobblie division.
What drives the Capellan people is not fear of their leaders, but instead the ideal of sacrifice and duty. It is not like the giri, or duty, of the Kuritan ("Death is as light as a feather, duty is as heavy as a mountain") but is instead one of hope. It is not onerous, it is not a grudging sacrifice. It is life created anew.
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Okay, at least for me the boards have been either flame wars or kinda slow. We need a good Capellan debate to liven things up. Nothing really comes to mind, but anything that'll get our good citizens to extol on the virtues of the Capellan Confederation would be awesome. Any ideas?
Really push the fact that at your absolute worst as demonized by Fed Suns propaganda you still don't make the Top Three Most Evil/Dickish Factions. ;)
Service Guarantees Citizenship, blatant Heinlein ripoff, or really blatant Heinlein ripoff, discuss. :P
In all seriousness, the Capellan Confederation with the setup it was handed should have been the underdog protagonist, if it weren't for that pesky 80s FASA vision where villains are real villains, monsters are real monsters, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri are real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. An inverse 4SW where the virtuous Cap Con used strategic mobility to really tear the overwhelming powerful and callous Fed Suns a new one would have been much more compelling than what we got, which can be summarized as 'Holy crap, the AFFS High Command actually counted up the regiments they had, and suddenly realized their enemies were completely boned, and then decided to see just how much more they could make it hurt'.
Of course, that would require a total universal rewrite, which is likely not what you were going for. Maybe something about how the Capellans are the only ones not chugging Devlin Stone's kool-aid?
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I guess maybe they could have taken a Serbia World War 1 role, but that still would have required a much more sympathetic political system.
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I guess maybe they could have taken a Serbia World War 1 role, but that still would have required a much more sympathetic political system.
Also some cultural tweaks. Indenturing anyone you forcibly capture for a multi-year period isn't going to make you any friends, and tends to stick out in the mind of your detractors.
Serbia is an unfair comparison. But the Capellans are very definitely a major power trying to compete in an environment where pretty much every one else is a tier up from them. Being 40% the size of your biggest enemy frankly blows.
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I would like to thank the Capellans for some of the latest and greatest plot twists, technology, Mech Designs, and my personal favorite, Proving the St. Ives Compact needed a stern reminder that defection is not the best way to go. [notworthy]
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Service Guarantees Citizenship, blatant Heinlein ripoff, or really blatant Heinlein ripoff, discuss. :P
Actually, no such concept exists in the Confederation. Serving doesn't guarantee citizenship. Instead, only citizens may serve.
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Actually, no such concept exists in the Confederation. Serving doesn't guarantee citizenship. Instead, only citizens may serve.
So Servitors do...what?
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So Servitors do...what?
In the context of Heinlein, federal service (i.e., service in the military) guarantees citizenship. In the Confederation, you can't serve in the military without being a citizen.
As for a servitor being able to earn his or her citizenship through (non-military) service, I let someone who is far more eloquent (MadCap?) explain it.
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As for a servitor being able to earn his or her citizenship through (non-military) service, I let someone who is far more eloquent (MadCap?) explain it.
No, no, really...that's okay. I'm good.
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No, no, really...that's okay. I'm good.
Chaotic, Lawful, or Neutral? :)
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Chaotic, Lawful, or Neutral? :)
That really depends on how close it is to quittin' time.
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So, I've got a question.
If the Confederation really reveres the Korvin Doctrine and what it represents, then why did it voluntarily leave the Greater Humanity...TWICE?
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So, I've got a question.
If the Confederation really reveres the Korvin Doctrine and what it represents, then why did it voluntarily leave the Greater Humanity...TWICE?
Umm...because Capellans actually are evil!?! }:)
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The Capellan Confederation IS the Greater Humanity.
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Actually, no such concept exists in the Confederation. Serving doesn't guarantee citizenship. Instead, only citizens may serve.
BZZZT, Wrong! Re-education for you, Hikagemaru!
Earning citizenship requires service to the State. All young Capellans are required to do it, and Servitors must do it to attain Citizenship later in life. The manner of the service varies widely, but generally requires an extended period of giving back to the community. Cleaning streets, assisting at your local library, creating a mural glorifying the Confederation, and serving in your local militia can all qualify someone for Citizenship. Of course, a Citizen is still expected to render service to the State as well.
So, I've got a question.
If the Confederation really reveres the Korvin Doctrine and what it represents, then why did it voluntarily leave the Greater Humanity...TWICE?
The Capellan Confederation IS the Greater Humanity.
Bingo. The Capellan Confederation is the Greater Humanity, because it's people live the Korvin Doctrine. The Confederation did not leave the Greater Humanity. The rest of the Inner Sphere refused to participate in the Greater Humanity with the Confederation. The Confederation leaving the Star League was simply a public acknowledgement of that fact.
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The Capellan Confederation IS the Greater Humanity.
Because every Capellan citizen believes that they were right, the first, the second, and the last time....
The First Star League ploy for the throne, The Pact with House Marik & Kurita to stem the alliance of the Fed Com wedding, and finally leading the Second Star League then tossing it back as if to say, "You have served your purpose...you may wither and die now."
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MadCap puzzles me. Does he really believe in everything that cappies believe in or is he just playing charachter. From way he does it you can never really tell.
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BZZZT, Wrong! Re-education for you, Hikagemaru!
Earning citizenship requires service to the State. All young Capellans are required to do it, and Servitors must do it to attain Citizenship later in life. The manner of the service varies widely, but generally requires an extended period of giving back to the community. Cleaning streets, assisting at your local library, creating a mural glorifying the Confederation, and serving in your local militia can all qualify someone for Citizenship. Of course, a Citizen is still expected to render service to the State as well.
Correct. I clarified later that I was speaking within the context of Starship Troopers: [federal military] service does not guarantee citizenship because in the Confederation only citizens may serve [in the federal military]. But I wasn't thinking in the context of local militias.
And I believe that makes sense. I wouldn't want the Confederation defended by those who have not demonstrated their loyalty to the State and desire for the good of Greater Humanity.
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Correct. I clarified later that I was speaking within the context of Starship Troopers: [federal military] service does not guarantee citizenship because in the Confederation only citizens may serve [in the federal military]. But I wasn't thinking in the context of local militias.
Ah, my misunderstanding! Yes, to be a janshi in the CCAF, one must already be a Citizen, with the exception of the Capellan Brigade, which is made up of former mercenaries and other ne'er do wells seeking citizenship.
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Ah, my misunderstanding! Yes, to be a janshi in the CCAF, one must already be a Citizen, with the exception of the Capellan Brigade, which is made up of former mercenaries and other ne'er do wells seeking citizenship.
Capellan Brigade, eh? I had not read about that one. Sounds intriguing. Sorta like a foreign legion?
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So Servitors do...what?
Pass and set. Maybe block if they are really tall.
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Spiking is punishable by death, however.
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MadCap puzzles me. Does he really believe in everything that cappies believe in or is he just playing charachter. From way he does it you can never really tell.
He has certain strong opinions about what human beings are responsible for. For the most part, though, he sounds very much like a Capellan because he's good at changing his tone of writing when representing the Greater Humanity. Plus, the CCAF is way more exciting than other Inner Sphere militaries, especially in certain sourcebooks like the 2000 FASA Field Manuals.
Correct me if I'm wrong. O0
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The Capellan Confederation IS the Greater Humanity.
Forgive me, but the Confederation doesn't resemble the Greater Humanity that Korvin describes...at least not as well as the Terran Hegemony or the Star League.
Thus, by NOT subsuming themselves to the more obvious and better suited Greater Humanity, the Confederation itself blatantly violated the Korvin Doctrine. Whoops!
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Forgive me, but the Confederation doesn't resemble the Greater Humanity that Korvin describes...at least not as well as the Terran Hegemony or the Star League.
BZZZT! The Korvin Doctrine is about more than just being "a bunch of people". The Korvin Doctrine is about the united and cooperative interaction between the population. Obviously, the greater the population, the greater the benefit, but if that population is failing to cooperate, then they are not participating in the Greater Humanity, they're just a mob. Only the Confederation's government, society, and culture strongly represent the culture Korvin advocated - one where every member works for the greater good of the whole community, not just themselves. The failure of the rest of the Inner Sphere to live to the Greater Humanity is on them, not the Confederation.
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Much like communism, capitalism or any other -ism, the Korvin Doctrine works better in theory than in practice. People just muck up sterling ideals.
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BZZZT! The Korvin Doctrine is about more than just being "a bunch of people". The Korvin Doctrine is about the united and cooperative interaction between the population. Obviously, the greater the population, the greater the benefit, but if that population is failing to cooperate, then they are not participating in the Greater Humanity, they're just a mob. Only the Confederation's government, society, and culture strongly represent the culture Korvin advocated - one where every member works for the greater good of the whole community, not just themselves. The failure of the rest of the Inner Sphere to live to the Greater Humanity is on them, not the Confederation.
BUZZ. The Star League and Terran Hegemony were whole communities, and by actively working to splinter these greater communities for the benefit of itself, the Capellan Confederation is in direct violation of one of its most sacred tenets.
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MadCap puzzles me. Does he really believe in everything that cappies believe in or is he just playing charachter. From way he does it you can never really tell.
All societies rest upon the social contract between their inhabitants. Unlike the overwhelming majority of societies where participation is to a large degree involuntary and the burden of the non-participatory members falls upon those who elect to participate, the Confederation spells out under no uncertain terms that both participation in their society is 100% voluntary, and that under no uncertain terms will the resources of those participating be wasted on those who don't.
While it seems many recoil in horror at the terrible things that befall those who refuse to participate (Servitors), I think it's hard to be surprised by what happens to those who elect to live within a Hobbsian state of nature. By not placing the burden of caring for these individuals on the participatory members of society, it liberates and uplifts that society as a whole.
Do I believe what the Confederation believes? Yes. Do I believe that the way the Confederation does it is just? Perhaps. To a large extent, I believe that justice lies not in a form of government, but in the just or unjust nature of those operating it. If administered justly, the Confederation is just. If administered unjustly, the Confederation is unjust. Is the method used to determine whether someone has qualified for Citizenship administered justly? Perhaps, perhaps not. Most likely, like anything, it's a bit of both. Similarly, does the Confederation advocate just behavior in their Citizens towards Servitors? Under Maximillian, it was clearly not the case, but the new House Liao Sourcebook makes it clear Sun-Tzu Liao does.
Let's just say that I see a potentially great society in the Capellan Confederation. Those who live in the modern world's Western democracies are far too quick to take their liberties and societal stability for granted. Neither are free.
BUZZ. The Star League and Terran Hegemony were whole communities, and by actively working to splinter these greater communities for the benefit of itself, the Capellan Confederation is in direct violation of one of its most sacred tenets.
Incorrect. You clearly fail to understand the Korvin Doctrine, and seem to simply believe that it consists of simply advocating being part of a big group. The uncooperative, uncaring masses of space were exactly what Korvin advocated against. Neither the Star League nor the Terran Hegemony advanced a doctrine of personal, individual responsibility to your fellow man and society as a whole. The Star League had the potential to did so, which is why, both times, the Confederation joined it. It's failure to do so and it's collapse both times into petty, self-advancement is why the Confederation both times withdrew from it. Further debate with you on this subject, since you fail to grasp it's basic principles, is rather unnecessary.
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Incorrect. You clearly fail to understand the Korvin Doctrine, and seem to simply believe that it consists of simply advocating being part of a big group. The uncooperative, uncaring masses of space were exactly what Korvin advocated against. Neither the Star League nor the Terran Hegemony advanced a doctrine of personal, individual responsibility to your fellow man and society as a whole. The Star League had the potential to did so, which is why, both times, the Confederation joined it. It's failure to do so and it's collapse both times into petty, self-advancement is why the Confederation both times withdrew from it. Further debate with you on this subject, since you fail to grasp it's basic principles, is rather unnecessary.
While I agree that the doctrine is a good thing... I do not agree that it's a doctrine that should be undertaken by a government to force upon it's citizens to live by.
The Doctrine is a PERSONAL ONE. One that an individual should be undertaking of their own free will. To force such behavior on others takes away the goodness and goodwill that the Doctrine is suppose to aspire.
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Neither the Star League nor the Terran Hegemony advanced a doctrine of personal, individual responsibility to your fellow man and society as a whole.
Here's the thing, neither does the Confederation. Responsibility to the Confederation does NOT equal responsibility to your fellow man and society as a whole.
The whole Korvin Doctrine is as deluded as a Crusader interpretation of the Hidden Hope Doctrine of the Clans. The Clans lost the right to be considered the legitimate defenders of the Inner Sphere when their ancestors willingly gave up their right by leaving, just like the Capellan Confederation did when it willingly and repeatedly ignored the majority of humanity.
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Privyet!
The Clans lost the right to be considered the legitimate defenders of the Inner Sphere when their ancestors willingly gave up their right by leaving, just like the Capellan Confederation did when it willingly and repeatedly ignored the majority of humanity.
So, you believe in the tyranny of the majority then? The same Davion idea of "might makes right?"
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Privyet!
So, you believe in the tyranny of the majority then? The same Davion idea of "might makes right?"
Are you saying that the CapCon isn't a tyranny too?
Because there are an awful lot of state murdered "citizens" that would disagree with this, if they weren't already dead.
[tickedoff]
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Much like communism, capitalism or any other -ism, the Korvin Doctrine works better in theory than in practice. People just muck up sterling ideals.
Indeed. This is key.
Alana Korvin's concept of the "greater humanity" was given a particularly Capellan-centric view when modified and merged with the ideal of the Capellan state established by later Chancellors and governmental ministers.
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So, you believe in the tyranny of the majority then? The same Davion idea of "might makes right?"
I will say that I don't believe in tyranny of a minority.
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Are you saying that the CapCon isn't a tyranny too?
Because there are an awful lot of state murdered "citizens" that would disagree with this, if they weren't already dead.
[tickedoff]
No. Just sick of the Davion hypocrisy.
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Most factions are hypocrites in their own way. All we as players do is chose our own particular flavor of hypocrisy.
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While I agree that the doctrine is a good thing... I do not agree that it's a doctrine that should be undertaken by a government to force upon it's citizens to live by.
The Doctrine is a PERSONAL ONE. One that an individual should be undertaking of their own free will. To force such behavior on others takes away the goodness and goodwill that the Doctrine is suppose to aspire.
But that's what you're not understanding. There is a choice. If you choose to be a part of the greater humanity, then you will serve for the greater good of the Confederation and become a citizen. If you don't want to be a part of the society, then be a Servitor.
I think what you're suggesting is, "I want the power of choice, and if I choose not to serve the greater humanity, I still want to reap the benefits as a member of society." Per the tragedy of the commons, how many people would choose to work to be a part of the greater humanity when they reap the benefits for free?
What is the other option? Every man for himself. That is certainly another way of looking at it, and such individualism is the Western model. The problem is, anything that is contrary to that model is seen as evil. Mix in some red herrings about dead citizens and what have you (like the Davions never engaged in intrigue) and you have 75% of the arguments of this thread summarized. But as the original purpose of this thread was designed to explore: the Capellans are not evil. It is not evil to reject personal ambition for the greater humanity. Even the Constitution of modern Japan has a provision providing that it is the duty of every citizen to work for the good of the society. The only difference is the Confederation takes the extra step of identifying those members who chose not to work for their state and call them Servitors.
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I will say that I don't believe in tyranny of a minority.
They you're obviously not a lawyer. :D
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Here's the thing, neither does the Confederation. Responsibility to the Confederation does NOT equal responsibility to your fellow man and society as a whole.
Yes it does. The State is it's people. The people, collectively, are society. The State, the Confederation, does not exist distinctly from it's Citizens.
The whole Korvin Doctrine is as deluded as a Crusader interpretation of the Hidden Hope Doctrine of the Clans. The Clans lost the right to be considered the legitimate defenders of the Inner Sphere when their ancestors willingly gave up their right by leaving, just like the Capellan Confederation did when it willingly and repeatedly ignored the majority of humanity.
We didn't ignore the majority of humanity. We simply chose not to collapse into the same morass. The Confederation cannot remain a beacon and example to the Greater Humanity if it collapses into the same valueless, rudderless morass that grips the rest of the Inner Sphere and beyond.
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Yes it does. The State is it's people. The people, collectively, are society.
The State is indeed its people, not just a convenient and privileged few. I'm glad we can agree on it.
We didn't ignore the majority of humanity. We simply chose not to collapse into the same morass. The Confederation cannot remain a beacon and example to the Greater Humanity if it collapses into the same valueless, rudderless morass that grips the rest of the Inner Sphere and beyond.
To be a beacon and example to something else means that the beacon and example cannot be part of that something else. Which means that the Confederation is not part of the Greater Humanity.
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But that's what you're not understanding. There is a choice. If you choose to be a part of the greater humanity, then you will serve for the greater good of the Confederation and become a citizen. If you don't want to be a part of the society, then be a Servitor.
SO you think it's okay to turn someone into a slave if they don't embrace YOUR ideal of what is right? To me that is the core aspect of what makes a tryanny. Just look at the name 'Servitor' and see that it's something that DEHUMANIZES people and goes in to the face of the Doctrine that you are claiming to be championing.
Are Capellans as a people evil? No they are not. But their Government on the other hand... the argument that they are evil can easliy be made. It all depends on who holds the reigns of power for any government wether or not the government is 'evil' or not. Both the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation has proven this on multiple occassions. Namely due to the express amount of power that has been placed in the hands of their leaders, and the society that states that the State is more powerful than the individual.
The ideals that I have fought for, places the INDIVIDUAL ahead of the state. That the state should be shackled and resitricted, while the individual is allowed to grow and become all that they can be.
In the Confederation, if you are not the 'perfect' confederation citizen as seen by a select few... you have no rights. you become a servitor and someone who is classified as a citizen can kill you without a second thought or fear of any reprisals made aginst you for such an act. They deify their leaders and make them 'unto gods' who are infalible and can do no wrong. And that is just another reason why I don't like the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation. No human is infalable, and neither is a human created government. Amoung the Confederation and Combine there is no checks or balances against the power of a Coordinator or Chancellor who goes off the deepend.
After the worlds of the Sarna March were conquered by the Federated Suns, the people were so beaten down that they expected to provide comfort women/men for the military forces occupying their world, and that people who had been trapped 'behind the lines' faced purges at the whim of an insanely parnoid Chancellor. And this kind of behaviour was not new... And to ignore that, is to ingore the fact the sun comes up in the morning and sets in the evening.
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Oh thank god. More of this. I was terrified I might never live to see another endless debate on this subject.
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Oh thank god. More of this. I was terrified I might never live to see another endless debate on this subject.
Fortunately, this thread came along, and saved you from such a fate. :D
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Fortunately, this thread came along, and saved you from such a fate. :D
Even better, it came back to life. Imagine my delight.
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The State is indeed its people, not just a convenient and privileged few. I'm glad we can agree on it.
To be a beacon and example to something else means that the beacon and example cannot be part of that something else. Which means that the Confederation is not part of the Greater Humanity.
So you're still assuming that the Greater Humanity is the majority of -people-. That's actually not the way I read the term, given that both words are capitalized.
The Greater Humanity isn't some sort of a population that can be counted, it's the combined successes and failings of human history, and it's the combined potential of what people can become. Now when one doesn't contribute to the Greater Humanity, it isn't like he or she is giving it up and ceasing to be human--rather, it just means not living up that individual's full potential. To me, the Korvin Doctrine is the realization that people, more than ever, need to organize themselves to aim towards that goal. The Confederation is the Greater Humanity, because that is its goal, or perhaps even its reason to exist.
And THAT's the way I read it. So do I sound rike Asian Papa yet? :)
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Yes it does. The State is it's people. The people, collectively, are society. The State, the Confederation, does not exist distinctly from it's Citizens.
Thusly the Confederation's great flaw. Its ideology treats the state as a distinct entity, with sovereign rights above and beyond those of the individual Capellans. At no point does it derive its precedence from the people it rules, yet enforces their adherence to that same rule. Neither do the citizens have any capacity to provide input into how the state may define its rule, so we cannot pretend that they in some way inform the state's will.
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So you're still assuming that the Greater Humanity is the majority of -people-. That's actually not the way I read the term, given that both words are capitalized.
The Greater Humanity isn't some sort of a population that can be counted, it's the combined successes and failings of human history, and it's the combined potential of what people can become. Now when one doesn't contribute to the Greater Humanity, it isn't like he or she is giving it up and ceasing to be human--rather, it just means not living up that individual's full potential. To me, the Korvin Doctrine is the realization that people, more than ever, need to organize themselves to aim towards that goal. The Confederation is the Greater Humanity, because that is its goal, or perhaps even its reason to exist.
If the Greater Humanity is the combined successes and failings of Human history AND the combined potential of what people can become, then the Confederation can't be the Greater Humanity because it is neither the combined successes and failings of human history, nor does it contain the combined potential of what people can become.
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Allow me to move my goalposts. I r bad att eckspreshun :-[
What I really mean by "successes and failings" is the historical benevolence and selfishness of people, in relation to potential. Dates, times, and events going on in other the Confederation and other nations are only expressions of that. As for the latter, I believe you mistake my meaning of the word "combined" having to include every human being in the Inner Sphere. To be realistic, the term Greater Humanity does imply superiority over what humanity was before. It's an ongoing experiment, and not everyone has to participate in it.
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To be a beacon and example to something else means that the beacon and example cannot be part of that something else. Which means that the Confederation is not part of the Greater Humanity.
What meaningless semantics. By that sophistry, a leader is not a member of the nation he leads, because he is not his own follower, nor a king of his own kingdom as he is not his own subject. Word games don't prove intellectual points.
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What meaningless semantics. By that sophistry, a leader is not a member of the nation he leads, because he is not his own follower, nor a king of his own kingdom as he is not his own subject. Word games don't prove intellectual points.
In that same token, word games also don't prove that the Capellans aren't evil. :D
But I digress, using terms like "Greater Humanity" to mean "a subset of our own population, and screw everyone else that isn't part of that population" is a bit dishonest, no?
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Per the tragedy of the commons, how many people would choose to work to be a part of the greater humanity when they reap the benefits for free?
That's kind of the key question in any suitably large-scale political debate, isn't it -- "how much faith do you, personally, have in humanity?"?
Answers will likely differ and probably end up revealing more about the speaker than about human nature in general. ;)
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In that same token, word games also don't prove that the Capellans aren't evil. :D
But I digress, using terms like "Greater Humanity" to mean "a subset of our own population, and screw everyone else that isn't part of that population" is a bit dishonest, no?
Exactly... that's the problem. it always boils down to an elite few who get to choose that subset, and woe be to those left out. Because they end up getting the poo-end of the stick.
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Well, there aren't enough good things to go around, so not everybody can have all the good things. That's why the Clans enjoy eugenics! }:)
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So, I've got a question.
If the Confederation really reveres the Korvin Doctrine and what it represents, then why did it voluntarily leave the Greater Humanity...TWICE?
The Star League wasn't any sort of "Greater Humanity". Neither versions of it.
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Well, there aren't enough good things to go around, so not everybody can have all the good things. That's why the Clans enjoy eugenics! }:)
Eugenics... ugh. trying to create 'Supermen' or 'Over-man' through such methods do nothing but take away from the humanity of a person. And the Clans are the perfect example of such failings in thought. The calous way they consider throwing lives away... The Clans believe in 'might makes right' and have bred nothing but bullies. And when someone realizes this, and stands up for the ideal that real strength comes from protecting the weak and not exploiting them... they get called tratiors. Not realizing their entire society is composed of bullies and tryanny.
Just like the Cappies who deify their leaders with Cults of Personalities, and history has shown that such have done nothing but led to heartbreak and pain.
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The Star League wasn't any sort of "Greater Humanity". Neither versions of it.
News flash: neither is the Capellan Confederation.
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Just like the Cappies who deify their leaders with Cults of Personalities, and history has shown that such have done nothing but led to heartbreak and pain.
Yes, opposing the will of the majority, particularly in democracies, does tend to lead to heartbreak and pain. ;D
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Yes, opposing the will of the majority, particularly in democracies, does tend to lead to heartbreak and pain. ;D
Oh really? In the Representative Republic hat was founded in North America in 1776 (once of thsoe founders was my anscetor), the Minority is protected from the tyranny of the Majority with the fact that you can speak out and express oppinions that are counter to what others believe... although there are many who do want to make it so that the Majority can rule without any opposition to their policies, especially when they make statements that those who are in opposition with said policies are nothing more than bigiots, racists, ect... and there are those that use ignorance of the issues as a weapon, hoping that people will vote for a party identity instead of the issues that are at hand. This is also how the Capellan Leaders have been able to create their Cult of Personality, mirroring the methods used by North Korea to control the masses.
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[copper]
I would like to remind everyone that the discussion of real world politics and religion are not allowed on these boards.
Thank you.
[copper]
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(http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/images/smilies/stop.gif)Warning: this thread is entering territory which will soon lead to Warnings being issued. Remember Rule 4:
4.Real World Politics and Religion are topics not allowed for discussion on this board.
Take a deep breath, stand away from the keyboard, and don't make me come down there. That also means no last words, no rejoinders, and when everyone's ready to talk about fictional universes and giant stompy robots, please continue.
Worktroll, Moderator.
(Damn! All these keen new Mods underfoot. Point still applies, though.)
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The Cappies are not evil. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. >:D
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I love you guys.
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The Cappies are not evil. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. >:D
Denial Ain't just a a river in Egypt
-Mark Twain
You know you walked into that one. ;D
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(http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/images/smilies/stop.gif)
Okay, everyone. I'm locking this thread for a while to give you time to cool off.
UPDATE: The thread has been unlocked but we are watching this thread closely. Please be civil with each other.
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Denial Ain't just a a river in Egypt
-Mark Twain
You know you walked into that one. ;D
Denial implies that we're turning a blind eye to some objective truth that can't be argued against. That truth doesn't exist.
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It does seem that witticism came in to being long after Samuel Clemons passed away in 1910.
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It does seem that witticism came in to being long after Samuel Clemons passed away in 1910.
Dude, you never met Zombie Clemons? Heckuva guy!
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(http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/images/smilies/stop.gif)
Let's try that lock again, shall we? Settle down, folks.
EDIT: I'm going to unlock the thread now that everyone's had twenty-four hours to get it out of their systems. Stay civil with each other, please.
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So I was looking at all the glorious threads of the other factions and lamenting that our beloved Capellan thread has gone rather stale.
I haven't been able to buy a Battletech book since Wars of Reaving---anyone care to enlighten me on what our beloved Confederation is up to in the mid 32nd Century?
And remember, the Maskirovka are watching!
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I haven't been able to buy a Battletech book since Wars of Reaving---anyone care to enlighten me on what our beloved Confederation is up to in the mid 32nd Century?
Winning
Tikonov, Chesterton and New Sytris all fly the glorious Dao
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I wonder if Daoshen plans on keeping New Syrtis or if he wants to trade for more former Capellan worlds or concessions.
For that matter, I wonder if Daoshen's plans for the New Syrtis thumb will really matter in the long run.
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(Looks at the thread title) Of course they are.....Hanse told me so! ;)
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Of course they are not! They are natural.
They are just disgusting. They live from the refuse of others, hiding in dark and moldy places. And they survive in circumstances where other, more deserving creatures would have perished long ago. Nuclear fallout is nothing to them. And noone would like to touch one with a ten foot pole.
Cockroaches aren´t evil. They are natural. :)
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I browsed the threads I had posted in this morning and found this one had been revived and went, "Well, hello again, old friend!"
I remember I got warned at least once on it, I think.
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[copper]
Please let's try to consider Peacemaker's question before moving to idle chat. Thank you
[copper]
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I wonder if Daoshen plans on keeping New Syrtis or if he wants to trade for more former Capellan worlds or concessions.
For that matter, I wonder if Daoshen's plans for the New Syrtis thumb will really matter in the long run.
New Syrtis would make a good bargaining chip in the future. ´.... and as a concession, I hand over New Syrtis to seal this deal...´
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New Syrtis would make a good bargaining chip in the future. ´.... and as a concession, I hand over New Syrtis to seal this deal...´
Or a setup for another re-conquest of something allegedly marked as "SO IMPORTANT IT DESERVES A NOVEL, GIVE US MONEY GROGNARDS PLEASE THANKS IN ADVANCE" again.
Like Chesterton.
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Winning
Tikonov, Chesterton and New Sytris all fly the glorious Dao
Chesterton? I'd ask if you jest, but we Capellans save the jokes for the interrogation.
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Chesterton? I'd ask if you jest, but we Capellans save the jokes for the interrogation.
Rejoice, my brother, for Chesterton has finally returned home!
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Rejoice, my brother, for Chesterton has finally returned home!
Wow.
Details. I need details. Pretend I know nothing about anything post-Jihad. Okay, don't pretend. I've never read any of the Dark Age books and I seriously haven't been able to buy anything since Wars of Reaving---what's the scope? How was Chesterton recovered?
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Wow.
Details. I need details. Pretend I know nothing about anything post-Jihad. Okay, don't pretend. I've never read any of the Dark Age books and I seriously haven't been able to buy anything since Wars of Reaving---what's the scope? How was Chesterton recovered?
Short story: Kurita and Liao are curb-stomping the Suns. Caleb was incompetent at dealing with either, and so both invasions were successful.
Longer story: Liao threw wave after wave of invasions at Tikonov, with the AFFS barely holding on at cost until the planet finally fell. This pissed Caleb off greatly who had up till then been more concerned about capturing former Republic worlds.. then planning a great counter-invasion despite pleas for help from the Draconis March as the Kuritas started their own campaign on that border. Due to his ineptitude, neither the Liao nor Kurita invasions were dealt with intelligently. He was (apparently) further betrayed by the Snow Ravens who were sweet with his father.. telling the Combine where his secret marshaling base was. And then invading the Periphery March. He died along with the reserves he scraped together, and the AFFS is in full rout mode on all borders. The Duchess of New Syrtis was captured and executed, and the Capellan March capital has moved to Kathil. On the other front, there basically isn't a Draconis March anymore.
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Rejoice, my brother, for Chesterton has finally returned home!
to a home in which it never lived. ;)
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to a home in which it never lived. ;)
Because a canon sourcebook author back in the day didn't talk to another canon sourcebook author on why it was worth mentioning in the first place.
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Of all the worlds glassed in the Jihad, Chesterton really should have been one, just to put that debacle to bed.
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to a home in which it never lived. ;)
Mere details ^-^
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Of all the worlds glassed in the Jihad, Chesterton really should have been one, just to put that debacle to bed.
Come now, man! Where'd Battletech be without revanchism? A whole lot of peacetech candyland, that's where!
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Come now, man! Where'd Battletech be without revanchism? A whole lot of peacetech candyland, that's where!
Blowing things up to resolve authorial contradictions or other real-world problems is a proud BattleTech tradition dating back to the Clan Invasion. They can't bother you about the Fighting Uruk-Hai if they're all dead.
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Of all the worlds glassed in the Jihad, Chesterton really should have been one, just to put that debacle to bed.
I don't know, I'm not sure I'd dignify the argument over the possession of Chesterton by calling it a debate. Or a debacle. It's more like the Capellans repeating themselves and everyone else facepalming. :D
Come now, man! Where'd Battletech be without revanchism?
You could at least be revanchist for territories you ever actually possessed. :-[
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I am all for glassing things that remain contradictory in the BTU. And reading post after post about who has a claim to Chesterton has become rather insipid.
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Yeah, but Keith had Tetsuhara and other positive Drac characters. Any Capellan Stackpole writes who has redeeming qualities will defect by the end.
As they should. Come to the light ;D
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Blowing things up to resolve authorial contradictions or other real-world problems is a proud BattleTech tradition dating back to the Clan Invasion. They can't bother you about the Fighting Uruk-Hai if they're all dead.
The same goes for other units as well, most done avoid conflicts with other pop culture items
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Now, I know what this thread reminds me of!
"Hello, handsome!You're a good looking fellow, do you know that? People laugh at you, people hate you, but why do they hate you? Because... they are JEALOUS! Look at that boyish face. Look at that sweet smile. Do you wanna talk about physical strength? Do you want to talk about sheer muscle? Do you want to talk about the Olympian ideal? You are a GOD! And listen to me, you are not evil. You... are... GOOD!"
It's been bugging me for a long time.
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As they should. Come to the light ;D
Do not trust the man with the autocannon O:-)
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to a home in which it never lived. ;)
The people there used to be a part of the Tikonov Union... which gradually formed with other states into the Capellan Confederation.
They are sitting on Capellan land, they just don't know it. ::)
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Well, I mean, they do, now. }:)
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...see, if it was the Combine saying that, I wouldn't mind, but something about the sheer two-facedness of the Capellan claims make them far more grating.
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...see, if it was the Combine saying that, I wouldn't mind, but something about the sheer two-facedness of the Capellan claims make them far more grating.
Two-faced? Why´s that?
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[deleted]
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Two-faced? Why´s that?
I would guess because he's seen some Mask operatives carve a face into the back of a dude's head at some point.
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Oooh, new toys.
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Two-faced? Why´s that?
At least the Combine are honest: they want to conquer your worlds because blah blah they want to conquer everything because blah the destiny of the Kurita family blah. Fair enough. They're not hiding anything or lying to anyone.
With Chesterton, well, there are two options. Either the person making the Capellan argument honestly believes it, in which case that person is totally out of touch with reality and wildly inconsistent in his or her beliefs about territorial sovereignty, or the person doesn't believe it, in which case it's just sophistry.
The Combine are being honest with themselves and others. They are adherents to a militarist, authoritarian ideology that exalts conquest and domination, but they at least do so consistently. In my book, that counts for something.
There is, I suppose, a counter-argument that goes "But the Federated Suns is also hypocritical. How can you accuse the Confederation of having dogma or propaganda inconsistent with the way it actually behaves or what Capellan leaders actually believe when the Federated Suns do exactly the same thing? When they talk about 'bringing freedom', they're just as bad: if they honestly believe it, they're totally delusional, or they don't, and it's just a fig leaf justification for war. Indeed, isn't the FedSuns rhetoric worse? At least Capellan territorial claims - however bogus they may be - are eventually going to end. They're limited in scope. The FedSuns doctrine is unlimited. Since they never define 'freedom' beyond 'part of the FedSuns', it's actually an invented mandate to conquer everything, just like the Draconis Combine. The difference is just that the Combine doesn't lie about it."
To an extent I'm sympathetic to that argument, but I feel that firstly it already concedes the emptiness of Capellan dogma and secondly I don't see FedSuns fans advancing an argument along those lines anything like as often. You do sometimes get arguments that both the Combine and Confederation should be dismantled, for the good of their people (I believe I made such an argument in this very topic), but nowhere does that argument involve an assertion of FedSuns sovereignty over foreign worlds. I know that governing the FedSuns involves just as much realpolitik and backstabbing and craven grasping for worlds as governing any other successor state... but in the end, what drew me to the Suns was the honest perception that they tried to do better. Even if they often failed. They might use sophistry, but at least they don't embrace it.
Sorry if this is crossing any lines.
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@Mecha-Anchovy:
My take on that: No one likes to go to war, no matter what (non-fantasy) culture they hail from. Being the agressor can be difficult because you need to whip up common support for that act, including preparing your populance for the hardships they´ll likely have to endure. That´ll boil down to using a kind of propaganda that speaks to cultural mores and values, as well as hitting on certain public emotions.
Therefore, every faction is either two-faced or not, depending on your POV, as they´ve got to get puplic support for being the aggressor.
When I, as an foreigner, see two nations preparing for war, I think they´re both being stupid, the more so when they´re hailing from a culture I can´t directly comprehend. That´s the same here.
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As a side note: it's pretty neat that you guys got so many new goodies, production capabilities, and actual offensive punch this time in the new TRO. Capellans are clearly no longer whipping boys either.
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If only the Capellan fans who quit the game out of frustration were still around to see this era.
Too long, too slow in coming if you ask me.
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If only the Capellan fans who quit the game out of frustration were still around to see this era.
Too long, too slow in coming if you ask me.
The Capellan nature is to be patient. Our time has come.
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If only the Capellan fans who quit the game out of frustration were still around to see this era.
Fair weather fans, who needs 'em.
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If only the Capellan fans who quit the game out of frustration were still around to see this era.
They do... they are the St.Ives' fans for whom the Aris Sung trilogy is their very own Warrior trilogy. 8)
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So, here's the thing. If I stopped at Dawn of the Jihad, the Federated Suns is essentially in the same spot, having cored through the heart of the Confederation at several points. I'm more interested in how matters now proceed, as the RotS appears ready to break out and bust heads.
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This might be a silly question, but does it? How do we know what the Republic appears ready to do? Is there some source for what's inside the Fortress that I'm unaware of?
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This might be a silly question, but does it? How do we know what the Republic appears ready to do? Is there some source for what's inside the Fortress that I'm unaware of?
Check the latest battlechat, search for Ilclan. The Wolf Empire and RotS are going head to head, so yeah, this will come to be.
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If only the Capellan fans who quit the game out of frustration were still around to see this era.
Too long, too slow in coming if you ask me.
Who would those be? The Cappies were the scrappy underdogs from day 1. Unless you were enamored with their 3rd Succession Wars status and ran out after the 4th, who are these people? I mean, I love the old CC myself. But, I've never encountered anyone who left after CC started to take their beatings. Just read that old book. Things were barely holding together before Hanse came to power.
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Who would those be? The Cappies were the scrappy underdogs from day 1. Unless you were enamored with their 3rd Succession Wars status and ran out after the 4th, who are these people?
The people who left after the 4th SW are who I'm talking about.
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The people who left after the 4th SW are who I'm talking about.
I don't remember them. Frankly, I always thought you needed to be a little masochistic to be a Liao player. Even now when we're winning, we can't help but feel that TPTB will screw us and take it all away.
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I don't remember them. Frankly, I always thought you needed to be a little masochistic to be a Liao player. Even now when we're winning, we can't help but feel that TPTB will screw us and take it all away.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels that way then.
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The people who left after the 4th SW are who I'm talking about.
Fair weather fanboys. Follow your team even if they don't make it to the playoffs.
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Fair weather fanboys. Follow your team even if they don't make it to the playoffs.
"I wonder if being a KC Royals fan has anything to do with my being a Liao fan?" Guess I just like rooting for the underdog.
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I don't know, but i've inadvertently stepped into Yankees territory. Their brand is strong enough that people who have never been to NYC, never watched a Yankees game or know more than 3 players on their current roster are "fans".
Frontrunners.
Davionistas.
Same thing.
Says the Phillies fan.
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I don't know, but i've inadvertently stepped into Yankees territory. Their brand is strong enough that people who have never been to NYC, never watched a Yankees game or know more than 3 players on their current roster are "fans".
Frontrunners.
Davionistas.
Same thing.
Says the Phillies fan.
Haha. +1
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Heh. The Seattle Supersonics are/were more like House Davion than any other sports team. Sure, they did win the Championship about thirty years ago, but they're in the process of being torn down because Stern basically hates Seattle and would rather not go there. Recently, Seattle has been used as leverage to force cities to put forth subsidies for their NBA teams and is being jerked around by the League.
*shrugs*
Besides, as of the Houses at this moment, I wouldn't call the Davions frontrunners. Losing the majority of two marches and the majority of their combat forces doesn't really incite attention for those inclined to pick factions who are out on front.
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I dunno. I still hold to my Yankees camparison. The FedSuns have more worlds, better leadership and organization, as well as better R&D than their opponents. You could liken that to the Yankees huge fanbase, front office and bloated payroll (again, a Phillies fan criticsizing when our payroll a ttimes was the highest).
Capellans... I dunno. Maybe the Mavericks in the NBA? Did nothing for awhile, and have been steadily fighting their way out of obscurity.
And I wouldn't count the Davies out yet. Remember, their misfortunes (and Cappies fortunes) were basically done with a stroke of the pen. Prior to ER3145 FS still looked like they were in a decent position. I say this not knowing their pre blackout military strength, just going off of Objectives. Them getting creamed, and let's face, they got whooped, has only recently come out. Come back in 20 years and have one of your color illustrated pages in your housebook feature the Capellans dropping onto New Syrtis and we can comiserate.
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Besides, as of the Houses at this moment, I wouldn't call the Davions frontrunners. Losing the majority of two marches and the majority of their combat forces doesn't really incite attention for those inclined to pick factions who are out on front.
The Yankees haven't played in the World Series since 2009. Should I put on my tinfoil Sonics hat now too?
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I dunno. I still hold to my Yankees camparison. The FedSuns have more worlds, better leadership and organization, as well as better R&D than their opponents.
The Suns have been fortunate enough to be in a good position geopolitically, haven't they? They managed to not get torn apart from within or balkanised (re: the FWL, the Capellans, arguably the Black Dragons) and they didn't get thoroughly brutalised by the Clans (re: Combine and Lyrans).
It's hard to point out any one factor in their historical success or their ability to bounce back from defeat, but I suppose they're in the enviable position of 1) being reasonably capable of cooperating (unlike the FWL), 2) having a reasonably competent offensive military (unlike the Lyrans and Capellans), and 3) actually having an economy worth a darn (unlike the Combine). The Suns are the all-rounder, I suppose? Attempts by internal leaders to backstab the government are relatively few, they can fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and their economic system is only mostly bonkers.
(Sorry, I have nothing to say on the metaphor. Those are... American sports teams...? I'm pretty sure?)
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Yeah. Royals, Yankees Baseball.
The others, Basketball. Bleh...
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If you're British, think of Man U as the FedSuns and Chelsea or Arsenal as the Cappies. If you're German Bayern Munchen are the Feddies and Borussia Dortmund as the Cappies.
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Well, here's what you want to do if you're going to pick Sports metaphors.
If you want one for the Federated Suns, you pick a team that won big 25 years ago and hasn't done much since. Maybe right now they're setting records for losses.
If you want one for the Capellan Confederation, you pick one that's been having better than above average seasons for the past fifteen years or so. Perhaps with a reputation for ruthlessness, like the NE Patriots.
The Lyran Commonwealth seems to be best represented by teams that are ridiculously bankrolled regardless....
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Well, here's what you want to do if you're going to pick Sports metaphors.
If you want one for the Federated Suns, you pick a team that won big 25 years ago and hasn't done much since. Maybe right now they're setting records for losses.
If you want one for the Capellan Confederation, you pick one that's been having better than above average seasons for the past fifteen years or so. Perhaps with a reputation for ruthlessness, like the NE Patriots.
The Lyran Commonwealth seems to be best represented by teams that are ridiculously bankrolled regardless....
So the Dallas Cowboys are the Federated Suns?
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If you're British, think of Man U as the FedSuns and Chelsea or Arsenal as the Cappies. If you're German Bayern Munchen are the Feddies and Borussia Dortmund as the Cappies.
Can't speak for the German football teams but for the English i'd use:-
Davion - Man United (scum)
Kurita - Arsenal
Steiner - Chelsea
Marik - Liverpool
Liao - Man City
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So the Dallas Cowboys are the Federated Suns?
Even Caleb wasn't as bad as Terrill Owens. Though, I do enjoy watching both groups fail.
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We could branch out into hockey and watch this thread get shut real fast.
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Yes. Anywho, let's get away from even FS. They pop up in Cappie threads all too often.
Is there something we should be aware of that would indicate the Confederation is headed for a fall? Clearly, the Dragon is juggling alot of issues, and some of those may lead to their own downfall. But, what of the Capellans? Other than the reversal on Tikonov, they seem to be on the top fo their game. I'm wondering what exactly, outside of full on "make it so" is supposed to lead to the crotchkick?
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I'll echo that. Speaking as a Kurita fan, I look at the Liao situation with some degree of envy.
Liao's two conceivable worries seem to be:
1. Davion striking a peace deal in order to focus on Kurita.. and putting Liao in a position by treaty to be done with conquest (for now).
2. The commonly-held opinion that the Fortress Walls are going to come down anytime soon. Even if this DOES happen, and an avenging angel in the form of a wrath-fuelled RAF boils out to punish the transgressors of the Dark Age, then Liao would be fairly low on the list of priorities. Malvina and her Falcons would have to be target #1. Clan Wolf and House Kurita would likely each be a bigger priority than Liao, as well. Even the FWL took more former RotS worlds than Liao did, and their weaker military position would make their Reconquista an easier and more likely prospect. If the RAF is able to deal with all those factions and STILL be in a position to retake the Liao occupied former RotS worlds, the CCAF will have had plenty of time to prepare.
Since I don't believe either is likely to happen, I gotta say even though Liao's conquest has been less extensive than Kurita's I think it's in a stronger position to HOLD it.
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I'd hesitantly agree, but I feel like the Thrice-Damned Republic is more likely to act against Our Beloved Confederation before other targets. Reasons? I believe they are many, and varied:
1) Availability. With the expansion of salients into Davion space, and the historically smaller size of the CCAF, House Liao may still have to do more with less. This leaves the Stellar North frontier less likely to be rigidly defended, since those troops will likely be trying to consolidate gains for the Greater Humanity.
2) Momentum. If the Liao contingent is smaller than other contingents, it may be an effective and reliable way to blood the troops, test new and altered technologies, work the kinks out of the supply and command trees, and generally gain practice and experience dealing with military circumstances in a live-fire setting. This will allow people to get on a real combat footing again.
3) History. Liao never gave those worlds up. Even after losing the Jihad (yeah, everyone lost, but still), and even after the Republic got everyone's troops together, and used those troops to enforce their land grab, House Liao still fought. They showed everyone else that fighting, the tried-and-true indicator in the Inner Sphere, still worked. And they were the first to take up arms (again?!?!?) to take those worlds back. If the Thrice-Damned Republic ever needed legitimacy, they need it now. And the quickest way to get it would be to sap House Liao in the back of the neck while they choke on their gains to the Greater Humanity.
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Something that hasn´t been mentioned so far is the new situation the Capellans find themselves in.
One of the biggest dangers for the CapCon may lie with its own success. The TRO states that the CCAF was never intended to hold huge swaths of territory hostile to its rule. If I remember correctly it said that the CCAF was never trained for that. And the swift advance actually netted the CapCon more than its share of worlds it never had under control even before the Star League. Worlds that weren´t "softened up" by a decade of agents spreading unrest and the Liao propaganda. Worlds with people who grew up in Davion schools, learning nothing but the tales of the cruelty of Liao rule and the injusties of the Confederation´s caste system.
From my point of view the CapCon would be well advised to occupy the Sirdar salient and then sue for peace as quickly as possible, hoping to retain its conquests. In 20 years the situation might have changed significantly and the rule of the Liao become a fact of everyday life. A normality.
Hoping for "a war to end all wars" (at that front) is a fallacy. Worse, it is a typical Davion fallacy.
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According to Paladin Janella Lakewood's introductory writeup in this file (http://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/10%20Previews/E-CAT35TR002%20Capellan%20Confederation_Preview.pdf), the Confederation is considered (by her at least) to likely be the most dangerous adversary for the Fortress-RAF after the Clans.
One thing that might be worth noting is that, even if the Republic ends up falling to the ilClan (whoever that ends up being), I would imagine the new occupant of Terra as being even less favourable to Capellan interests than the Republic has been.
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According to Paladin Janella Lakewood's introductory writeup in this file (http://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/10%20Previews/E-CAT35TR002%20Capellan%20Confederation_Preview.pdf), the Confederation is considered (by her at least) to likely be the most dangerous adversary for the Fortress-RAF after the Clans.
One thing that might be worth noting is that, even if the Republic ends up falling to the ilClan (whoever that ends up being), I would imagine the new occupant of Terra as being even less favourable to Capellan interests than the Republic has been.
I don´t know. There you´ve got a people who lost pretty much and fought hard to bring it back. Then that kind of people stood more or less alone against a brutal enemy and survived and then you force those people to hand over their stuff for free and they resist. Additionally, that´s more or less the only guys around who know how to make friends and keep them.
Yeah, I would fear those guys, too.
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One advantage the CapCon does have is a proven record in keeping its agreements. The treaty with the MoC has held without any attempt to takeover or take advantage.
Something that hasn´t been mentioned so far is the new situation the Capellans find themselves in.
One of the biggest dangers for the CapCon may lie with its own success. The TRO states that the CCAF was never intended to hold huge swaths of territory hostile to its rule. If I remember correctly it said that the CCAF was never trained for that. And the swift advance actually netted the CapCon more than its share of worlds it never had under control even before the Star League. Worlds that weren´t "softened up" by a decade of agents spreading unrest and the Liao propaganda. Worlds with people who grew up in Davion schools, learning nothing but the tales of the cruelty of Liao rule and the injusties of the Confederation´s caste system.
From my point of view the CapCon would be well advised to occupy the Sirdar salient and then sue for peace as quickly as possible, hoping to retain its conquests. In 20 years the situation might have changed significantly and the rule of the Liao become a fact of everyday life. A normality.
Hoping for "a war to end all wars" (at that front) is a fallacy. Worse, it is a typical Davion fallacy.
We don't know what preparation the CCAF has made for occupation. Judging from the anti-personnel flavor of the TRO, I would say that holding those planets was a priority in their planning.
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One advantage the CapCon does have is a proven record in keeping its agreements.
Isis Marik might disagree.
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If you're British, think of Man U as the FedSuns and Chelsea or Arsenal as the Cappies. If you're German Bayern Munchen are the Feddies and Borussia Dortmund as the Cappies.
Sorry, neither.
If I paid more attention to sports I could probably join the metaphor, but all that immediately springs to mind is that the Lyrans must be Collingwood.
(Except Collingwood wins all the time, because in the real world fabulous wealth frequently translates into competitive success. I was never all that convinced by the BT universe's explanations as to why the Lyrans don't win more than they do, especially in the context of the Succession Wars. I'm not really sure how they've managed to consistently lose to the Kuritas.)
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We (Kurita) are just that good! ;)
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I suppose I can't argue with that.
Though seriously, it is amazing - not to mention suspension-of-disbelief-straining - that the Kuritas have been able to run the Draconis Combine as an armed camp for over eight centuries without it collapsing or being massively outpaced by its neighbours. Its relative lack of heavy industry, its underdeveloped consumer markets and anaemic private sector, its focus on an austere, spartan life and overwhelming focus on military as opposed to economic development... it all should lead to a relatively weak state. The 3025 house book explicitly speculated that the Combine might collapse in the near future.
(Its exact phrase was, "The economic emphasis on the military is ultimately harmful to the state and the armed forces... The Combine is wearing out its resources, but not exploring any way of increasing resources, except through conquest. It is possible that, as the economic situation worsens, the fighting spirit of the Kurita soldier will become even more desperate; it is also possible that the Kurita empire will collapse on itself in a paroxysm of social and economic chaos.")
Meanwhile, the Lyran book had to devote several pages to explaining why the Lyrans aren't a military superpower, and none of its explanations were really all that convincing. They mostly seemed to boil down to "Lyran generals and officers are blithering incompetents". It's just really hard to resist the conclusion that in a sensible universe, the Lyrans would have crushed the Combine all the way back in the Age of War.
Maybe the new Kurita source book will resolve some of these questions. I suppose it could be just that Lyran industrial supremacy and Kurita austerity are mostly fictional. The Commonwealth isn't actually much better than its neighbours; and the Combine does have a thriving private sector and doesn't devote much more wealth to its military than any of its neighbours. The 'Combine citizens live spartan lives and all our wealth goes to the glorious, honourable military' line could just be Kurita propaganda or a false stereotype. (It's really hard to see why they'd want to promote that image as propaganda, though. I know it's typical of fascist or totalitarian regimes to have a rhetoric of frugality, as opposed to the wasteful, ostentatious wealth of their neighbours, and I know that the Draconis Combine is basically copying stereotypes of WWII Japan... but WWII Japan did not endure for eight hundred years of regular war with wealthy opponents, you know?)
I guess the Combine is just that good? Or the Lyrans and the Suns are just that terrible?
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@Mecha-Anchovy:
Read up on Uncle Chandy. The Kuritans are described as having good industry and a huge consumer market for quite some time now. The old 80s stuff that formed the BTU 3025, like red scare and jap scare isn´t around anymore ;)
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Their consumer goods were noted as being pretty sub-par though, and they had a lot of protectionist measures in place because they knew if they didn't, the Lyrans could break their economy. The Combine's exports are pretty nonexistent.
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Its not that hard to explain. In the Draconis Combine, the best and brightest go in the military. In the Lyran Commonwealth, the best and brightest become merchants.
IMO... the Draconis Combine is in a similar position with the Federated Suns. They both focus on the military at the expense of most civilians.
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Its not that hard to explain. In the Draconis Combine, the best and brightest go in the military. In the Lyran Commonwealth, the best and brightest become merchants.
IMO... the Draconis Combine is in a similar position with the Federated Suns. They both focus on the military at the expense of most civilians.
And that leaves capellans in an strange middle ground.
Sure, service for citizenship should move people into the right caste, but once you´re in, advancement by merrit seems to contradict with bureaucracy.
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Their consumer goods were noted as being pretty sub-par though, and they had a lot of protectionist measures in place because they knew if they didn't, the Lyrans could break their economy. The Combine's exports are pretty nonexistent.
That's the question, then, isn't it? If the Lyrans could break the Combine economy... well, why aren't the Lyrans also beating the Combine militarily? They outproduce the Combine. They're richer, have a more advanced technological base, and are more industrially powerful. Even if the Combine has better soldiers or better generals... well, the Second Punic War, or the Napoleonic Wars, or the American Civil War, or the Pacific front of the Second World War. Brilliant generals are one thing, but resources, money, and industry do tend to show.
I can only assume that either:
1) The industrial disparity is much, much smaller than it is made out to be.
Or 2) the Kuritans are just that good, and the Lyrans are just that awful.
I usually like to resist explanations that boil down to 'everyone in a relevant field is an idiot', so I suppose it's best go with 1). It feels like canon publications point more to 2) sometimes, though, since we have been repeatedly told about Lyran industrial strength and Kuritan frugality, and we've been told about Lyran military ineptitude (re: social generals) so much that we have to conclude there's something to the stereotype.
IMO... the Draconis Combine is in a similar position with the Federated Suns. They both focus on the military at the expense of most civilians.
It strikes me that FedSuns' industry hasn't been so consistently portrayed as weak, though. While the Suns aren't as wealthy as the FWL or the Lyrans, they're not exactly poor either. The Federated Suns as a whole is wealthier than either the Combine or the Confederation: they're not one of the economic powers of the Inner Sphere, but they're not terrible either. They're rich in resources and they have a reasonable number of industrialised, factory worlds. The Outback exists and lowers the average, but the Suns are hardly as economically weak as the Combine.
After all, I believe that when they formed the FedCom, the Suns half was not immediately overwhelmed, nor did it have to be economically rehabilitated by their wealthy partners. (cf. East Germany after reunification.)
I guess that the problem disappears if you just go with solution 1) above, and say that the Lyran economy isn't such hot stuff after all, but... I don't really want to say that, because the economy is one of the only things the Lyrans have going for them, you know? It would be like taking the Kuritans' military away from them, or stripping the Capellans of their nationalism.
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And that leaves capellans in an strange middle ground.
Sure, service for citizenship should move people into the right caste, but once you´re in, advancement by merrit seems to contradict with bureaucracy.
Historically states that limit citizenship tend to do so in favor of the people doing the limiting.
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@Mecha-Anchovy:
Just stop looking at the industry and the state being intertwined units. To simplify it, what the private sector does is pretty much irrelevant to the state, besides generating taxes, but we´re all talking about what a state-controlled part of the industry does.
@Crunch:
The historical precedents that come to my mind didn´t an profitted from it.
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It strikes me that FedSuns' industry hasn't been so consistently portrayed as weak, though. While the Suns aren't as wealthy as the FWL or the Lyrans, they're not exactly poor either. The Federated Suns as a whole is wealthier than either the Combine or the Confederation: they're not one of the economic powers of the Inner Sphere, but they're not terrible either. They're rich in resources and they have a reasonable number of industrialised, factory worlds. The Outback exists and lowers the average, but the Suns are hardly as economically weak as the Combine.
After all, I believe that when they formed the FedCom, the Suns half was not immediately overwhelmed, nor did it have to be economically rehabilitated by their wealthy partners. (cf. East Germany after reunification.)
That's not entirely true. It was the Lyran economy that prevented an economic collapse in the FS during the 4th SW. Also, having factory worlds and being "better off" is all relative. My guess is the Fed. Suns have a banana state economy where the minority rich are very rich and the majority poor are very poor with a small middle class in between.
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Yes. Anywho, let's get away from even FS. They pop up in Cappie threads all too often.
Is there something we should be aware of that would indicate the Confederation is headed for a fall? Clearly, the Dragon is juggling alot of issues, and some of those may lead to their own downfall. But, what of the Capellans? Other than the reversal on Tikonov, they seem to be on the top fo their game. I'm wondering what exactly, outside of full on "make it so" is supposed to lead to the crotchkick?
The whole Canopus/Sian/Andurien thing could go up assuming someone important dies. Danai is currently heir to two thrones, we don't know if the Humphries have anyone waiting in the wings just incase...does the Magistracy have another Centrella waiting in the wings if say, Danai dies?
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And that leaves capellans in an strange middle ground.
Sure, service for citizenship should move people into the right caste, but once you´re in, advancement by merrit seems to contradict with bureaucracy.
Let's leave the Capellans out of this and turn our back to the focus of the thread....
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The whole Canopus/Sian/Andurien thing could go up assuming someone important dies. Danai is currently heir to two thrones, we don't know if the Humphries have anyone waiting in the wings just incase...does the Magistracy have another Centrella waiting in the wings if say, Danai dies?
There are always other Centrellas. If not, there's Raventhirs and Ramilies to be found.
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Let's leave the Capellans out of this and turn our back to the focus of the thread....
But the thread is about Capellans :D
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and how they aren't evil.
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and how they aren't evil.
Unfortunately, we really cannot have any substantive conversation about how the Capellans aren't evil without the full participation of MadCap.
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Unfortunately, we really cannot have any substantive conversation about how the Capellans aren't evil without the full participation of MadCap.
Really no offense against MadCap, but... why can't you at least try? ???
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Unfortunately, we really cannot have any substantive conversation about how the Capellans aren't evil without the full participation of MadCap.
Editted for the sake of public security.
Move along.
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Unfortunately, we really cannot have any substantive conversation about how the Capellans aren't evil without the full participation of MadCap.
What's that? I'm right here if you need me! :)
Really no offense against MadCap, but... why can't you at least try? ???
I agree! I can't be the only one carrying this banner, Citizens! Lend a hand while I beat this drum!
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That's the question, then, isn't it? If the Lyrans could break the Combine economy... well, why aren't the Lyrans also beating the Combine militarily? They outproduce the Combine. They're richer, have a more advanced technological base, and are more industrially powerful. Even if the Combine has better soldiers or better generals... well, the Second Punic War, or the Napoleonic Wars, or the American Civil War, or the Pacific front of the Second World War. Brilliant generals are one thing, but resources, money, and industry do tend to show.
I can only assume that either:
1) The industrial disparity is much, much smaller than it is made out to be.
Or 2) the Kuritans are just that good, and the Lyrans are just that awful.
I usually like to resist explanations that boil down to 'everyone in a relevant field is an idiot', so I suppose it's best go with 1). It feels like canon publications point more to 2) sometimes, though, since we have been repeatedly told about Lyran industrial strength and Kuritan frugality, and we've been told about Lyran military ineptitude (re: social generals) so much that we have to conclude there's something to the stereotype.
It strikes me that FedSuns' industry hasn't been so consistently portrayed as weak, though. While the Suns aren't as wealthy as the FWL or the Lyrans, they're not exactly poor either. The Federated Suns as a whole is wealthier than either the Combine or the Confederation: they're not one of the economic powers of the Inner Sphere, but they're not terrible either. They're rich in resources and they have a reasonable number of industrialised, factory worlds. The Outback exists and lowers the average, but the Suns are hardly as economically weak as the Combine.
After all, I believe that when they formed the FedCom, the Suns half was not immediately overwhelmed, nor did it have to be economically rehabilitated by their wealthy partners. (cf. East Germany after reunification.)
I guess that the problem disappears if you just go with solution 1) above, and say that the Lyran economy isn't such hot stuff after all, but... I don't really want to say that, because the economy is one of the only things the Lyrans have going for them, you know? It would be like taking the Kuritans' military away from them, or stripping the Capellans of their nationalism.
If you start thinking about this too much you start having to explain how every "military genius" in BT either cribs extensively from historic battles or isn't any smarter than a random guy who plays a game where clunky future robots fight each other.
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Really no offense against MadCap, but... why can't you at least try? ???
Because if he is here, the rest of us can rally 'round his banner. It's an excuse to be lazy.
I agree! I can't be the only one carrying this banner, Citizens! Lend a hand while I beat this drum!
Our name is Legion, for we are many. 8)
To answer Mecha-Anchovy, they -did- strip the illustrious holdings of the Great House of Liao of their nationalism, or, rather, the nationalistic bent of House Liao wasn't originally recognized by the writers. Old supplements spoke of planetary citizens shrugging as one flag was lowered and another was raised, in order to explain why military sizes were so miniscule, and to help the rest of us understand why a lance of mechs could be reliably counted on to hold a world.
Over time, that changed for House Liao. I remember reading about civil unrest on recently stolen worlds, and, indeed, civilians have been responsible for supporting most of House Liao's major actions of late. Of course, having our Citizens not identify as their home world, or their home system but as Citizens of their House wouldn't likely work as well for other Houses (House Liao actually spends on their citizens' welfare), but it was the edge we needed. The piece of the puzzle that had been missing. And the backing of our people has made us strong again.
As for the edge that effective generalship may bring, I need only refer you to World War I. The battle plan had the Kaiser's Armies flow to the North of the French trenches, effectively removing them from any real action against the German vann. However, the German general threw all caution to the wind, engaging the Allied forces and stalemating the Western Front for the entire war. Leadership does count.
I think what you're seeing here, though, is a sort of passive nerfing that the game designers felt they had to use in order to make the game last. An industrialized, organized, and lightly regulated market will outperform a command economy in all but the most unlikely of scenarios; but, if the Lyrans were as wealthy as the books seemed to indicate, the game would likely boil down to three states slugging it out (the way the Liaos were written back then, I don't think we'd be one of 'em, either). I'd say that if you -had- to find a reason why the Lyrans didn't just storm everyone else with WALLS OF STEEEL, the answer that makes the most sense to me is that aggressive military action over prolonged time just isn't really in their national character.
They've just never really -had- to, you know? At least, until the Clans came, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I hope you don't still think of MadCap as the only slap-happy Cappie of note. I mean, I might currently be working in the foreign legion, but my name, sirs, is still LiaoFan.
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Y'all can just close up the thread now. O:-)
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I think to such FASAnating terms as FASAnomics, FASAgraphics, and FASAfizzics, we can add FASAilosophy and realpoliFASAtik.
Because if he is here, the rest of us can rally 'round his banner. It's an excuse to be lazy.
But his banner is so bright and wavy. Few can articulate the Capellan cause as eloquently as MapCap (or you, good Citizen). Indeed, in large part this slap-happy Cappie got off the fence (after almost two decades of non-alignment) and into the Confederation fold thanks in large part to the oratory of our friend MadCapellan.
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I think what you're seeing here, though, is a sort of passive nerfing that the game designers felt they had to use in order to make the game last. An industrialized, organized, and lightly regulated market will outperform a command economy in all but the most unlikely of scenarios; but, if the Lyrans were as wealthy as the books seemed to indicate, the game would likely boil down to three states slugging it out (the way the Liaos were written back then, I don't think we'd be one of 'em, either). I'd say that if you -had- to find a reason why the Lyrans didn't just storm everyone else with WALLS OF STEEEL, the answer that makes the most sense to me is that aggressive military action over prolonged time just isn't really in their national character.
They've just never really -had- to, you know? At least, until the Clans came, but that's a discussion for another thread.
That's sort of the issue for me. I do want to like the Lyrans. When I first encountered the BT setting, they were the faction I felt most naturally drawn to.
It's the 'loser' aspect that irritates me, I think, but not even that gets to the core of it. It's okay if a faction loses sometimes. The Capellans in the Third Succession War. The Draconis Combine in 3050. The Periphery states in the Reunification War. Those factions all took a beating; but they also all fought back and made a show of it. There is no shame in losing to a numerically or technologically superior faction. I have an incredible amount of respect for the Taurians or the Outworlders, when the Star League came knocking.
It's that, for me, the Lyrans come off as losing not because they're genuinely outmatched, but because they're lazy and/or stupid. They should win. They have all the tools needed to win. But they either 1) have absolutely no talent for using those tools to acquire victory, even when they're under immediate existential threat or when they have competent neighbours around desperately trying to teach them how, or 2) are so apathetic that they don't even want to try to win. And the idea that either of those situations could persist over centuries of brutal, apocalyptic warfare... well, it just doesn't feel natural.
I know the answer here is to shrug and say, "Shut up and just enjoy the giant stompy robots". It just continues to bug me. :(
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That's sort of the issue for me. I do want to like the Lyrans. When I first encountered the BT setting, they were the faction I felt most naturally drawn to.
It's the 'loser' aspect that irritates me, I think, but not even that gets to the core of it. It's okay if a faction loses sometimes. The Capellans in the Third Succession War. The Draconis Combine in 3050. The Periphery states in the Reunification War. Those factions all took a beating; but they also all fought back and made a show of it. There is no shame in losing to a numerically or technologically superior faction. I have an incredible amount of respect for the Taurians or the Outworlders, when the Star League came knocking.
It's that, for me, the Lyrans come off as losing not because they're genuinely outmatched, but because they're lazy and/or stupid. They should win. They have all the tools needed to win. But they either 1) have absolutely no talent for using those tools to acquire victory, even when they're under immediate existential threat or when they have competent neighbours around desperately trying to teach them how, or 2) are so apathetic that they don't even want to try to win. And the idea that either of those situations could persist over centuries of brutal, apocalyptic warfare... well, it just doesn't feel natural.
I know the answer here is to shrug and say, "Shut up and just enjoy the giant stompy robots". It just continues to bug me. :(
If it makes you feel better, Lyran Mercenaries tend to be the best around.
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If it makes you feel better, Lyran Mercenaries tend to be the best around.
Hm, maybe that's actually part of it. The Lyrans have the money to hire the best, so there might just be a bit of a cultural inclination to sit back and let the hired help do the work they're being paid for.
And if the Kell Hounds are anything at all to go by, some of their brightest and their best may in turn opt for the mercenary lifestyle, even if it's just because they feel the grass is greener on that side.
Of course, overgeneralizations of any kind are dangerous. And while the Lyrans may have trouble with their "social generals", it's not as though for example the Combine didn't have perpetual issues with its troops jockeying for glory points and its warlords scheming against each other and the Coordinator, either. Every faction has its star players and its incompetents and, if it really comes to that, grabs the idiot ball as dictated by the plot.
Ultimately I don't tend to think of the Lyrans are "losers", as such. If I have to paint them all with one sweep of the brush, I think of them more as one of the more "civilized" and actually more peaceful factions -- less inclined to pursue or glorify war and conquest for their own sake (or even just "for the other side's own good") and more to set aside some time for their own actual lives.
And I imagine that much of the time that actually works out for them just fine, or else they wouldn't still be here.
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I guess the Lyrans, FWL and MoC all happen to have the same "problem". That´s the three major factions not having a militarized society and not glorifying its own military.
There´re some examples of what the lyran military can manage and what it´s good at, but they aren´t really prominent in fiction/canon, most likely because they touch a subject that´s not prominently featured in the game. So far it would seem to me that the lyrans are the undisputed kings of logistics, able to get any kind of material anywhere and on schedule. In a game that focuses on the actual battle instead f the war itself, this feature simply can´t shine.
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And if the Kell Hounds are anything at all to go by, some of their brightest and their best may in turn opt for the mercenary lifestyle, even if it's just because they feel the grass is greener on that side.
That's basically always been my interpretation. The Lyran Commonwealth assigns even less of a stigma to mercenaries than other states, thus its typical for the most talented officers and troops to become "free agents" rather than be stuck serving twenty to thirty years under some ascot-wearing ninny who went to the right parties in the academy. In turn, House Steiner lavishes the best mercenaries with equipment and assigns them all the important missions, leaving the LCAF to just be one enormous hammer/meat shield, which is what it does best.
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And they probably get treated with respect better than as soldiers. As Mercenaries, they're just another type of merchant. Hence they're at the top of the food chain of society.
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That's basically always been my interpretation. The Lyran Commonwealth assigns even less of a stigma to mercenaries than other states, thus its typical for the most talented officers and troops to become "free agents" rather than be stuck serving twenty to thirty years under some ascot-wearing ninny who went to the right parties in the academy. In turn, House Steiner lavishes the best mercenaries with equipment and assigns them all the important missions, leaving the LCAF to just be one enormous hammer/meat shield, which is what it does best.
Well, much of the LC's problems with commanders these days can be traced back to the FedCom, and Hanse Davion in particular. Back in 3025 you had Katrina Steiner trying to advocate for new schools of thought in the LCAF and acting as patron for young officers who followed them. If she had stayed in charge for another decade or Melissa had stayed with that plan, by the 3050s those people that Katrina earmarked as being promising new school officers would have been running the show. An Archon who takes care in picking their top-level officers can shape the way the entire LCAF works, and they can do it subtly.
But she died and while Hanse dealt with Katrina as an equal, Melissa was definitely the subordinate in the relationship. Hanse decided the best way was not to promote LCAF officers with new ideas up the chain, but to put AFFS officers in place who would "advise" Lyran officers who were already in place how to think and act. In doing so Hanse gave help to reactionary elements of the LCAF by changing the conversation from "up and coming officers with new ideas rocking the boat" it's "****** Davions coming in and telling us what to do." Between things like Melissa being too gutless to put Aunt Nondi out to pasture after she took that head trauma in 3039 and this whole thing, it's no wonder the Lyran establishment flocked to "old school traditional Lyran officers" when Katherine seceded. Hanse had, by being impatient, turned what was a new wave of Lyran tactics into another way Hanse Davion pushed people around.
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Hm, maybe that's actually part of it. The Lyrans have the money to hire the best, so there might just be a bit of a cultural inclination to sit back and let the hired help do the work they're being paid for.
I'm not sure how much that helps. If the Lyrans produce the best mercenaries, and if they have the wealth needed to hire the best mercenaries... well, the question stands. Why is their military record still so dismal, especially up against the Combine, which is not only relatively poor, but also openly contemptuous towards mercenaries?
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I'm not sure how much that helps. If the Lyrans produce the best mercenaries, and if they have the wealth needed to hire the best mercenaries... well, the question stands. Why is their military record still so dismal, especially up against the Combine, which is not only relatively poor, but also openly contemptuous towards mercenaries?
There's a lot more to a viable culture than just its military record, BattleTech just focuses on military matters (with a side order of politicking to serve as a convenient excuse for the next war) with such laser-like intensity that that's easy to forget. So if whoever's at the bottom of the strictly military pecking order comes across as a loser, the game itself is to a good part to blame for that.
I also didn't ever claim that the Lyrans produce the best mercenaries. Just that they have the money to hire them, whatever the mercs' actual background may be.
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Lend a hand while I beat this drum!
You say drum, I say servitor's head....
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You say drum, I say servitor's head....
You Brute! Stop oppressing the masses.
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Considering that Wolf's Dragoons ditched the Lyrans and the Lyrans left the Eridani Light Horse to die on Hesperus, I wonder if the traditional Lyran attitude toward mercenaries is changing.
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Doesn't matter. The Cappies have the best mercs. The Big Mac.
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Those aren't Mercs.
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They's used to be. Doesn't that count? ;)
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Considering that Wolf's Dragoons ditched the Lyrans and the Lyrans left the Eridani Light Horse to die on Hesperus, I wonder if the traditional Lyran attitude toward mercenaries is changing.
That was just business. Had to weigh the value of the ELH as an asset against the value of Defiance Industries, you dig?
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A business calculation that could, and SHOULD IMHO, cost them in the end if and when it comes out that they left the ELH to die. I know if I were a merc commander and a Lyran rep came looking to hire my command, I'd laugh in his face and tell him not to let the door hit him on the way out.
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I'd do even worse. I'd name an obscene contract with horrendous upfront money and a massive signing bonus.
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You can't spend credits when you're dead.
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...but my heirs can. *shrugs*
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True, but I'd prefer to stick around and help them get more money than a one time deal can give.
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The longer answer is that with you out of the picture, I'm the only game in town. I'm going to exploit the situation for as long as I can as a good businessman would do. Don't Lyrans appreciate that?
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The ELH is dead? Where can I see that?
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In your friendly local Era Report 3145.
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Considering that Wolf's Dragoons ditched the Lyrans and the Lyrans left the Eridani Light Horse to die on Hesperus, I wonder if the traditional Lyran attitude toward mercenaries is changing.
Abandoning the hired foreign help is normal. Its not like they're the Grey Death.
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A business calculation that could, and SHOULD IMHO, cost them in the end if and when it comes out that they left the ELH to die. I know if I were a merc commander and a Lyran rep came looking to hire my command, I'd laugh in his face and tell him not to let the door hit him on the way out.
Let's be honest, the ELH was only back because of WK, and killing them off again was just CGL's way of cleaning house. They were supposed to be gone in the Jihad.
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That was just business. Had to weigh the value of the ELH as an asset against the value of Defiance Industries, you dig?
Sure, but letting the ELH die like that was pretty damn cold. I guess my point is that perhaps the heyday of the Lyran Commonwealth as a mercenary employer is over.
A business calculation that could, and SHOULD IMHO, cost them in the end if and when it comes out that they left the ELH to die. I know if I were a merc commander and a Lyran rep came looking to hire my command, I'd laugh in his face and tell him not to let the door hit him on the way out.
A mercenary who doesn't realize he's fundamentally a disposable and untrustworthy thug is either really good or has a unreasonably high opinion of himself. If you don't want to get betrayed or abandoned and left to die on some godforsaken planet, perhaps you should find another line of work.
You can't spend credits when you're dead.
You can't make them if you're picky. Considering the circumstances, refusing to work for an organization the size of the Commonwealth because of what happened on Hesperus might be considered bad business sense.
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Also, the lockout was the work of Defiance Industries. I would imagine they have different priorities, since they themselves do not employ mercenaries. And if they needed to, I don't imagine the Inner Sphere's biggest arms plant needs help finding hired guns.
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True. Any blowback for betraying the ELH will probably fall on Defiance Industries instead. Greedy SOB's didn't want a battle in their precious factory.
Interesting question... did Defiance know the Archon's plans?
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True. Any blowback for betraying the ELH will probably fall on Defiance Industries instead. Greedy SOB's didn't want a battle in their precious factory.
Interesting question... did Defiance know the Archon's plans?
There's a lot of questions involved. Like where did the order come from? All the way from the CEO or was it an on-site manager? If its from the top then Brewer's motives become a second question.
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There's a lot of questions involved. Like where did the order come from? All the way from the CEO or was it an on-site manager? If its from the top then Brewer's motives become a second question.
Motives are obvious: Preservation of the Factory. The only way they can be damaged is if there's a battle inside them. The Clans don't destroy infrastructure when they retreat and they certainly don't fight other Clans inside a Factory. Brewer only need wait for Wolf and Falcon to beat each other and then attack. Whether the Clanners fight or run won't change the fact that the factories will be undamaged.
Cold Blooded.
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Motives are obvious: Preservation of the Factory. The only way they can be damaged is if there's a battle inside them. The Clans don't destroy infrastructure when they retreat and they certainly don't fight other Clans inside a Factory. Brewer only need wait for Wolf and Falcon to beat each other and then attack. Whether the Clanners fight or run won't change the fact that the factories will be undamaged.
Cold Blooded.
Well, yeah that's part of it, but don't you think that Duke Brewer, recently ousted as Archon, might want to throw a little something on the new Archon's reign? Trashing a prominent merc unit, which makes the new Archon look worse to prospective employees, for deniable reasons while protecting your own shit seems like a pretty good deal for him.
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Well, yeah that's part of it, but don't you think that Duke Brewer, recently ousted as Archon, might want to throw a little something on the new Archon's reign? Trashing a prominent merc unit, which makes the new Archon look worse to prospective employees, for deniable reasons while protecting your own shit seems like a pretty good deal for him.
No. Reading the section again, I think its Trillian Steiner who ordered it closed. The nobles on Hesperus would be very worried about their position now that Brewer abandoned them.
Yeah... it was Trillian who did it.
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If she did, she ordered it the smart way: through a deniable asset who was an employee of an independent company.
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The nation is falling and being torn apart and "bankrupt", that's going to affect the hiring of mercs more than Trillian's decision, end of the day she didn't have much of a choice.
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One thing I didn't really understand was what the situation on the ground was after the Light Horse had been wiped out and the Wolves and Falcons were duking it out. Did one of the Clans control the factories, or were they focusing on killing each other while Defiance security troops hunkered down in their mountains and waited for help to arrive?
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Interesting...
Wait, I thought this was a Capellan thread...must have taken a wrong turn somewhere...
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Interesting...
Wait, I thought this was a Capellan thread...must have taken a wrong turn somewhere...
Payback for all the Capellan thread-jacking. :P
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One thing I didn't really understand was what the situation on the ground was after the Light Horse had been wiped out and the Wolves and Falcons were duking it out. Did one of the Clans control the factories, or were they focusing on killing each other while Defiance security troops hunkered down in their mountains and waited for help to arrive?
You expect Malvina to sit and wait patiently and not attack things at random? Alaric had to have known that she would come at him so his best choice would be to take the first shot rather than let her attack when it was most advantageous for her.
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Motives are obvious: Preservation of the Factory. The only way they can be damaged is if there's a battle inside them. The Clans don't destroy infrastructure when they retreat and they certainly don't fight other Clans inside a Factory. Brewer only need wait for Wolf and Falcon to beat each other and then attack. Whether the Clanners fight or run won't change the fact that the factories will be undamaged.
Eh, traditionally yes, the factory would have been safe. But ER3145 stated that Hazen wanted to nuke the facility, so it was basically on knife's edge.
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Interesting...
Wait, I thought this was a Capellan thread...must have taken a wrong turn somewhere...
Nah, that´re just all the Mask payed informers bringing in the intel updates.
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Eh, traditionally yes, the factory would have been safe. But ER3145 stated that Hazen wanted to nuke the facility, so it was basically on knife's edge.
That's a lotta nukes, considering DefHes is built like NORAD.
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[copper]
Gentlemen, please, let's remember the focus of this topic is the Capellan Confederation. If you wish to discuss House Steiner's hired soldiers, please open a new topic.
[copper]
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So extensive use of stealth technology, plasma weapons, and fiendishly cunning plots - does that make the capellan confederation the Romulans of BTech?
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So extensive use of stealth technology, plasma weapons, and fiendishly cunning plots - does that make the capellan confederation the Romulans of BTech?
[derail]
Well, for the sake of the Confederation, let's hope not. I mean, look what happened to the Romulans... *sigh*
[/derail]
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So extensive use of stealth technology, plasma weapons, and fiendishly cunning plots - does that make the capellan confederation the Romulans of BTech?
The Romulans did like the color green....
But the Romulans were evil. The Capellans are not evil.
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The Romulans did like the color green....
But the Romulans were evil. The Capellans are not evil.
It does say that in the thread title. O:-)
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The Romulans did like the color green....
But the Romulans were evil. The Capellans are not evil.
I respectfully disagree on the evilness of the Romulans (even if they do have a big Marik birdy thing).
Although I do tend to refer to the Makirovka as the Tal Shiar ;)
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So extensive use of stealth technology, plasma weapons, and fiendishly cunning plots - does that make the capellan confederation the Romulans of BTech?
Now I want an Assault Dropship that fires ONE HUNDRED POINTS OF PLASMA.
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I respectfully disagree on the evilness of the Romulans (even if they do have a big Marik birdy thing).
Although I do tend to refer to the Makirovka as the Tal Shiar ;)
I actually agree with your disagreeing on my statement concerning the evilness of the Romulans. Like the Capellans, I think they're merely misunderstood by those who would insert their own cultral-centric viewpoints on them. And they're jealous of they're cool-looking ships.
Similarly, the Capellans are not evil. They're merely misunderstood. While I suppose it's fair to question whether the ends justify the means, ultimately the Capellans work towards the betterment of Greater Humanity.
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Now I want an Assault Dropship that fires ONE HUNDRED POINTS OF PLASMA.
Now there's an idea O0
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Sun Tzu: "If it is true that all is well that ends well, then, provided that all ends well, the ends do justify the means."
Talon Zhan: "so do we send the Death Commandoes after Loren Jaffrey or not?"
O0
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May not be the right place, but I am the GM of my local Jihad Campaign and I must say the Stealth Death Commando's have made my players straighten up and take notice. Especially with the Artillery Support of the Thunder 3L under stealth. Lol...I am in Love with the Cappies all over again!
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Now I want an Assault Dropship that fires ONE HUNDRED POINTS OF PLASMA.
ONE THOUSAND POINTS OF LIGHT.
I am in Love with the Cappies all over again!
As it should be.
One thing i thought of, refining my point on Lyrans v. Kurita and Davions v. Liao.
One reason why House Steiner may not have flourished against the Kuritans plays to their House's greatest strength. Their overwhelming production. Think about this: what we might be looking at in the DC v. LC border may be analogous to the CC v. FS border, if My Beloved Confederation still had a hinterland that it could rely on. Think about it. The CC is an effective defensive army, classically, because it has no supply line. Everything is right there, wherever you hit. We had no worlds to guard, so we had no need for support; this was why elastic defense worked for us (in as much as it did). Now, double, no, TRIPLE! the size of the CC. Elastic defense never happens, because our worlds are too numerous, and there's a lot of space between a frontier world, and their analog on the opposite frontier. With the CC being less-than-able to effectively supply any really dedicated push into enemy territory, the Davion defenders may become slightly more lax, knowing that any incursion will be poorly supplied, even if the enemy is driven (which, let's face it, has kinda never been an issue with the CC).
Now, keep that same footing for a few hundred years.
This may be what happened to the LC, regarding the DC's constant incursions.
I hope this wasn't too far a drift. I will bring us back on topic by saying that it may be the fact that the Greater Humanity lost so much, so soon, gave us the tools to fight effectively! Of course, that promises bad times if we continue to expand without taking the proper measures to insure that we remain guarded and capable along our frontier...
But, you know, what could possibly go wrong?
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The LC vs DC was that way cause the LC had myopic Dukes who only cared about their turf and to hell with the rest. If the DC attacked a part of the LC then its that part's Duke's problem and the Archons.
Same thing with offensives. Any attack on the Lyons Thumb, for example, will be seen as a benefit to the Duke of Skye instead of the LC as a whole. The rest of the Dukes will see it as Skye getting ahead of them.
So in the end the majority is against any action whether defense or offense.
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Question for all you Cappie fans.
Can you tell me of some brand new Cappie "Combat Organizations" ?
IIRC the Death Commandos are the newest pre 4th SW with a formation timeframe in the 2990-3015 range.
Are there any units that are newer than that ?
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Oh we got a whole bunch that Daoshen created/reactivated. We just have wait for FM: 3145 to see them.
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Aren't they known collectively as Celestial/Hidden Lion regiments or have all the 1am puck drops in my time zone during the NHL playoffs finally taken their toll on my memory?
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Oh we got a whole bunch that Daoshen created/reactivated. We just have wait for FM: 3145 to see them.
Sorry, I should have clarified, I'm looking for 4th SW to Pre-Jihad time frame, not RotS era.
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Ah, my bad. Hm, sorry bit fuzzy on then.
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Question for all you Cappie fans.
Can you tell me of some brand new Cappie "Combat Organizations" ?
IIRC the Death Commandos are the newest pre 4th SW with a formation timeframe in the 2990-3015 range.
Are there any units that are newer than that ?
New units that appeared after the 4th Succession War -
Dynasty Guard
6th Confederation Reserve Cavalry "Hustaing Warriors"
7th Confederation Reserve Cavalry
2nd Capellan Defense Force
3rd Capellan Defense Force
Syn's Hussars
1st St. Ives Janissaries
2nd St. Ives Janissaries
Warrior House Tsang Xiao
Also, depending upon how you see things, St. Cyr's Armored Hussars.
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Didn't the Shin Legions appear post-4SW too?
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Didn't the Shin Legions appear post-4SW too?
The Shin Legions were CCAF troops that defected away from the Confederation to escape Romano's purges.
The Combine accepted them, but didn't treat them very well (Nova Cats wouldn't be surprised). They used them as expendable cannon fodder on the Clan lines then in the 3060s when Sun Tzu began his Xin Sheng program they defected back to the Confederation.
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Didn't the Shin Legions appear post-4SW too?
I'd say yes. They definitely haven't appeared in any pre-4th Succession War sources. The founding of the Shin Legions remains kind of hazy. My opinion has always been that they were formed from the surviving remnants of numerous destroyed units from the 4th Succession War.
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New units that appeared after the 4th Succession War -
Dynasty Guard
6th Confederation Reserve Cavalry "Hustaing Warriors"
7th Confederation Reserve Cavalry
2nd Capellan Defense Force
3rd Capellan Defense Force
Syn's Hussars
1st St. Ives Janissaries
2nd St. Ives Janissaries
Warrior House Tsang Xiao
Also, depending upon how you see things, St. Cyr's Armored Hussars.
Also, you could consider McCarron's Armored Cavalry a new Capellan unit.
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Also, you could consider McCarron's Armored Cavalry a new Capellan unit.
While we're on that slippery slope, the 4th Tau Ceti Rangers, 15th Dracon, Lockhardt's Ironsides, Laurel's Legion, and the Sarna Martial Academy Cadre.
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I'd say yes. They definitely haven't appeared in any pre-4th Succession War sources. The founding of the Shin Legions remains kind of hazy. My opinion has always been that they were formed from the surviving remnants of numerous destroyed units from the 4th Succession War.
That's what I thought (probably because I remembered a post of yours from long ago on the history of the Shin Legion).
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I concur with the threads initial statement..The people of the Confederation are not evil..thier leaders however are raving nutjobs and the product of incest.
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I think the title mis-speaks.
I think, what you intend, is that the Capellans do not do what they do, out of cartoonish, cackling supervillainy. Their behavior is not dedicated to malice for malice'ss sake.
However, I do not think that makes them Not-Evil. I think that their actions can be done with the noblest of intentions, and still be evil. Their actions may be wholly justified and consistent with their internal values. But I will never be able to accept those values.
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I think the title mis-speaks.
I think, what you intend, is that the Capellans do not do what they do, out of cartoonish, cackling supervillainy. Their behavior is not dedicated to malice for malice'ss sake.
However, I do not think that makes them Not-Evil. I think that their actions can be done with the noblest of intentions, and still be evil. Their actions may be wholly justified and consistent with their internal values. But I will never be able to accept those values.
Rejecting foreign values is not the same as denoucing them for being threatening to your own.
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I think the title mis-speaks.
I think, what you intend, is that the Capellans do not do what they do, out of cartoonish, cackling supervillainy. Their behavior is not dedicated to malice for malice'ss sake.
However, I do not think that makes them Not-Evil. I think that their actions can be done with the noblest of intentions, and still be evil. Their actions may be wholly justified and consistent with their internal values. But I will never be able to accept those values.
I'm not sure I follow you. I'm fairly certain that when the original poster said "The Capellans are not evil" that's exactly what he meant. You are more than welcome to disagree with that statement, but I think you are making a mistake if you feel you understand the original poster's thoughts on the subject better than he does himself.
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No, while I agree with the sentiment, that they are not doing it to be cackling supervillains worshipping at the altar of malice, I still think that the things they do ARE EVIL.
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No, while I agree with the sentiment, that they are not doing it to be cackling supervillains worshipping at the altar of malice, I still think that the things they do ARE EVIL.
Depending on your point of view and timeframe the same could be said of every faction in the game.
Therefore I'm not sure that I understand your point, please laborate?
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First, it was summed up in another thread that the Confederation preserved more of their industry than other nations by being willing to sacrifice cities and civillians instead, in order to preserve that architecture. I find that abominable. I would also point to the maskirovka and general lack of individual freedoms.
Perhaps those things aren't up to your individual standard of evil? They clear mine pretty easy.
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The Capellan Confederation operates as an opt-in, collectivist society. Arguably, it'd be negligent to allow the country to falter, and endanger the lives of all Capellans, rather than sacrifice the lives of a few to preserve the many. As a Citizen not killed in the process of killing the Word of Blake forces occupying his city is now a Blakist captive, and judging by the treatment metted out on Blakist occupied worlds in the FWL likely to face a fate worse than death, the death of that Citizen in lieu of allowing both he and his home city to fall to the Blakists could be considered not only necessary and just, but merciful.
During the Jihad the CCAF was all that stood between the Capellan people and slavery under the Blakist whip. The value of preserving the might of the CCAF therefore trumped nearly any other factor. The actions of the CCAF may seem inhumane if observed in isolation, but if one takes into account the nature and the strength of the CCAF's enemies, I believe the decision was totally natural. The Capellan Confederation did not nuke their own population centers for kicks, nor did they do so against any other enemy, such as the Federated Suns or the Republic. The Capellan Confederation did what it had to do against an enemy that had repeatedly proven willing and able to use nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons against both civilian and industrial targets against which the only defense is an overwhelming first strike. The calculated decision to focus on the destruction of the Word of Blake ultimately preserved the Confederation, and by extension, her people.
As for "individual freedoms", this has varied from time to time and ruler to ruler, but what freedoms are the people of the Confederation explicitly denied?
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Much of the perspective of the Capellan Confederation is seen through the lenses of our (mostly) Western perspective as well as the perspective of the developers (which has changed a lot from the early FASA days). Consider what is said about House Liao on the back of the original House Liao book:
Although perceived as the weakest Successor State, House Liao's Capellan Confederation is still a wily, treacherous, and formidable foe. Ruthlessly dominated by the cunning Maximilian Liao, the Confederation schemes to pick up the pieces of the shattered Inner Sphere and declare itself leader of a new Star League.
The perspective this gives is that the Capcon is "wily" and "treacherous," a "foe," that is "dominated" by a "cunning" leader that "schemes" to declare itself the leader. In my view, the Capcon was originally set up to be the bad guy (as was the Combine, "[t]hreatening to devour both the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth..."). Compare with what is said on the back of the House Steiner book ("fights a desperate battle to protect the worlds, industries, and peoples of the Lyran Commonwealth... its clenched fist is a symbol of defiance to those who would swallow the Commonwealth whole") or House Davion ("In the 26th Century, Alexander Davion wanted the Federated Suns to be the last to join the Star League. In the 31st Century, Hanse Davion wants them to be the last to survive it.") Steiner and Davion are perceived from the defensive position, trying to protect themselves from the evil Combine and Confederation.
Who is actually the aggressor in the BT Universe? Is it the Capcon? Compare with the back of Handbook House Liao:
Assailed for centuries by enemies on every side, House Liao's Capellan Confederation faced its own oblivion time and again. Now, nearly forty years since the realm teetered on the very brink of collapse, the Confederation has returned, reclaiming the pride and unity lost when the armies of Steiner and Davion rolled across their worlds to shatter them. Led by the crafty and charismatic Sun-Tzu Liao, and embracing the spirit of Xin Sheng--rebirth--House Liao once again has become a political and military power to be reckoned with, defying those who would see them fail, and deadly to all who oppose them.
I appreciate this far more balance view of the Capellan Confederation.
Ultimately, every faction in BT has its flaws---my point is that we judge what is "evil" from our own ethno-centric point of view. I could give a multitude of examples but for Rule 4, which is wisely in place. So just because the Capcon represents something different from our viewpoint doesn't mean it's evil. Rather than being this treacherous aggressor, the Capcon is more like the little guy who everyone likes to kick around, and then they shake their heads when the little guy finally lashes back.
Indeed, I have concluded that the Capcon is not evil. That doesn't mean that I necessarily condone all of its ways, but ultimately the Capcon is what it is because it's trying to survive in a very dangerous galaxy. I find the collective perspective (denounced as suppressive to individuals) to be particularly beautiful---read the short story "Aid and Comfort" at the beginning of Handbook House Liao to see what I am talking about.
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The Clans' view of good and evil are pretty similar to the Confederation's, if you get past the Inner Sphere=Barbarians or Clans=Barbarians divide.
The Korvin Doctrine is a mirror of the Writings of Kerensky. Well, the reverse actually, as the Korvin Doctrine was already ancient when Little Nicky created the Clans.
The tenets of the Lorix Order are likewise pretty similar to the Clans' view on the duties and privileges of the warrior (specifically MechWarrior) class. Again, Little Nicky probably assuredly had inspiration here as well. Look at the Warrior Houses (which are monastic orders based upon the Lorix Order) and Clans, they're virtually the same thing only the latter include a eugenics program.
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snip
MadCap, as much as I enjoy your elaborations on the CapCon (no irony here), I think you missed what SteveRestless implied.
He didn´t say the CapCon has no reason to act like it acts.
snip
I would agree with you on the relativity of values. But I bet he doesn´t speak of general philosophically or religiously deducted thruths. He clearly said, that -for him- the CapCons actions have crossed the line to something he morally objects.
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Mind you guys, this is from someone who plays in a faction that is surely in no position to claim ethically impeccable history.
In the end the answer lies in the way we see our chosen factions. (and the others) While the fiction of BT is huge at this point, some things are still left up to the imagination of the players (which is great btw) and I would say as a rule you (you in general) are more than inclined to give the factions that appeal to yourself the benefit of the doubt AND fill all the little details more generously in your mind. I know I do.
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IT IS OFFICIAL, GENTLEMEN:
<HikageMaru>: Are the Capellans evil?
<TS_Hawk>: No that is the Fedrats under Hansies rule
<Oswald>: are they evil ENOUGH?
<Takiro>: Yes the Capellans are evil and completely unstoppable!!
<Nerroth>: Good to note.
...
<TS_Hawk>: The cappies are not evil they are just a bunch of deranged psychopaths
...
<Habeas2>: HikageMaru - Not at all.
<Habeas2>: Oswald - Well, EVERYONE is evil enough...
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IT IS OFFICIAL, GENTLEMEN:
In truth, didn't we already know this deep in our hearts? :)
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IT IS OFFICIAL, GENTLEMEN:
We all knew that. Now, let´s liberate some more poor, oppressed folks from their brutal, warmongering government.
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Capellan bias. I'm quitting this game again.
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Capellan bias. I'm quitting this game again.
Can I have your minis?
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Capellan bias. I'm quitting this game again.
Can I have your maps? ;)
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Capellan bias. I'm quitting this game again.
May I liberate your books?
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Witticism how I love thee,
wicked and fickle mistress,
oh why have you forsaken me,
and cause me such distress?
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Witticism how I love thee,
wicked and fickle mistress,
oh why have you forsaken me,
and cause me such distress?
does this mean we can liberate your stuff too? ;D
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does this mean we can liberate your stuff too? ;D
I think it means we already liberated his witticism. Well, now it´s free and in better hands anyways.
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Witticism how I love thee,
wicked and fickle mistress,
oh why have you forsaken me,
and cause me such distress?
I think his witticism left him and is shaking up with the Capellan Confederation.
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I think his witticism left him and is shaking up with the Capellan Confederation.
Actually, last time I heard from it, it passed its citizenship test and now is a valuable member of the artisan caste.
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It may just be my point of view but the Cappellans are the most evil nation, about the only thing that I can think of that is more evil would be a traitor, even more so if that traitor is working for the Cappellans. ;D
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Well, Kanye West, then a traitor working for the Capellans, then a regular traitor. People who drive 30 in a 50 MPH zone and people who correct other people's English on comment boards may be there between Kanye and the traitor working for the Capellans, but that is up to discussion.
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Well, Kanye West, then a traitor working for the Capellans, then a regular traitor. People who drive 30 in a 50 MPH zone and people who correct other people's English on comment boards may be there between Kanye and the traitor working for the Capellans, but that is up to discussion.
You put your italics on the wrong iteration of "then".
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You put your italics on the wrong iteration of "then".
Thank you for nailing that down for us. O0
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Youngblood: So evil, even the Capellans kicked him out for trolling the Greater Humanity.
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To Capellans I will speak in verse,
as it could have come no worse:
<HikageMaru>: Are the Capellans evil?
...
<Habeas2>: HikageMaru - Not at all.
They still are evil, so I say!
Scorned for all eternity.
(but that´s okay)
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To Capellans I will speak in verse,
as it could have come no worse:
They still are evil, so I say!
Scorned for all eternity.
(but that´s okay)
I think that's code for "Help! Please liberate me from my oppressive Marik-Steiner-Davion overlords" :o
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I think that's code for "Help! Please liberate me from my oppressive Marik-Steiner-Davion overlords" :o
Actually, I think he went to visit Canopus. You know they have the good stuff there.
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It seems based, a little too much for my liking, on Communist China. Hey, I'll work for them if the money is right, but my unit isn't putting up with the insanity found in their court. It's a given Sun-Tzu is most stable ruler they've had in centuries, but that doesn't mean I trust them.
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It seems based, a little too much for my liking, on Communist China. Hey, I'll work for them if the money is right, but my unit isn't putting up with the insanity found in their court. It's a given Sun-Tzu is most stable ruler they've had in centuries, but that doesn't mean I trust them.
It's battletech why are you trusting anybody? Ask the ELH if they would recommend the steiners as good employers?
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It's battletech why are you trusting anybody? Ask the ELH if they would recommend the steiners as good employers?
Very true. At least the Capellans put their extreme paranoia out there for all to see :)
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It seems based, a little too much for my liking, on Communist China.
I think I have to ask: what makes you think the Capellan Confederation is "based on Communist China"? This assertion gets trotted out a lot, but I struggle to see how the Capellan state, a comparatively small, besieged, meritocratic monarchy is comparable to a communist one-party superpower like the PRC. Most of the evidence typically presented tends to either be tagential (it is something all or most political entities do) or is based around ethnicity, which strikes me as a little discriminatory and fails to account for the wide swath of non-Chinese descended Capellans.
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It seems based, a little too much for my liking, on Communist China. Hey, I'll work for them if the money is right, but my unit isn't putting up with the insanity found in their court. It's a given Sun-Tzu is most stable ruler they've had in centuries, but that doesn't mean I trust them.
I think the Confederation shed the whole "evil communists" legacy stuff from the 80s some time ago. The trappings used to descripe the confed for the last 10+ years have been leaning more and more to a modernized fantasy version of the Han empire.
Very true. At least the Capellans put their extreme paranoia out there for all to see :)
It´s not paranoia when you know they´re out to get you.
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I think I have to ask: what makes you think the Capellan Confederation is "based on Communist China"? This assertion gets trotted out a lot, but I struggle to see how the Capellan state, a comparatively small, besieged, meritocratic monarchy is comparable to a communist one-party superpower like the PRC. Most of the evidence typically presented tends to either be tagential (it is something all or most political entities do) or is based around ethnicity, which strikes me as a little discriminatory and fails to account for the wide swath of non-Chinese descended Capellans.
Well, they ain't besieged anymore. They're besieging.
That aside, I think the initial portrayal of them in the old House Liao book as a totalitarian state with a faltering command economy is pretty clearly modeled on Mao's China, with the post-Romano Liao era borrowing much from Deng Xiaoping's post-1976 reforms. The pseudo-Chinese trappings adopted from about TRO3057 on (and, IMO, if anyone's being discriminatory here, an insinuation I don't particularly appreciate, it'd be the writers of the game universe, because how often do we see things with Russian or Scottish [IIRC another Capellan ethnic group] names after Ridzik, the Northwind Highlanders and other holdovers from 3025?) probably serve to cement the association with China and modern Chinese nationalism. I daresay more specific examples could be found, but this is already well afoul of board rules as it is.
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Well, they ain't besieged anymore. They're besieging.
That´s a fact, yes. But would that be sufficient to change some centuries of ingrained culture over night?
Now don´t say "Xin Sheng", as a "siege mentality" is a useful thing for rulers to exploit.
That aside, I think the initial portrayal of them in the old House Liao book as a totalitarian state with a faltering command economy is pretty clearly modeled on Mao's China, with the post-Romano Liao era borrowing much from Deng Xiaoping's post-1976 reforms. The pseudo-Chinese trappings adopted from about TRO3057 on (and, IMO, if anyone's being discriminatory here, an insinuation I don't particularly appreciate, it'd be the writers of the game universe, because how often do we see things with Russian or Scottish [IIRC another Capellan ethnic group] names after Ridzik, the Northwind Highlanders and other holdovers from 3025?) probably serve to cement the association with China and modern Chinese nationalism. I daresay more specific examples could be found, but this is already well afoul of board rules as it is.
I think some things should be seperated here, to faciliate a further discussion.
The Confederation as shown has all the trappings we associate with "evil" states, that´s true. It is a police state, that´s also true. The kind of control the state has over the population is something we westerners directly associate with communsism, but actually has nothing to do with what political system it is based on, because that type of totalitarianism can corrupt any underlying political system without a problem.
[Edit] Will continue below as I was jumped by a Mecha-Anchovy
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Well, they ain't besieged anymore. They're besieging.
Quite true.
That aside, I think the initial portrayal of them in the old House Liao book as a totalitarian state with a faltering command economy is pretty clearly modeled on Mao's China
While I'm certainly no expert on modern Chinese history, the Liaoist Doctrine seems rather different from Maoist economics in the details. I fully concede the surface similarities, however. You have made a good point, thank you! :)
with the post-Romano Liao era borrowing much from Deng Xiaoping's post-1976 reforms.
I'm not sure I agree here, simply because I don't think the Xin Sheng movement was ever described as having any major changes in economic policies beyond a shifting of priorities.
(and, IMO, if anyone's being discriminatory here, an insinuation I don't particularly appreciate, it'd be the writers of the game universe, because how often do we see things with Russian or Scottish [IIRC another Capellan ethnic group] names after Ridzik, the Northwind Highlanders and other holdovers from 3025?)
I did not mean to imply that any comparison of the Confederation to the PRC was discriminatory, but that assuming they are based on the PRC simply because their population is Chinese would be. If you misunderstood, you have my apologies. In the past, I've actually been asked such outrageous questions as "Why do you play Capellan? You aren't Chinese!" I find the idea that ethnicity is inherently tied to a specific political view point or even a game faction of all things rather troubling.
As for diversity in Capellan fiction, I can only speak for myself in that in my works I always strive to give characters names from a wide mix of backgrounds. By the 31st century, everyone is likely of mixed ancestry. Chinese ancestry may be more common in the Capellan Confederation, but I always strive in my work to portray the full variety of heritage present.
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I think some things should be seperated here, to faciliate a further discussion.
The Confederation as shown has all the trappings we associate with "evil" states, that´s true. It is a police state, that´s also true. The kind of control the state has over the population is something we westerners directly associate with communsism, but actually has nothing to do with what political system it is based on, because that type of totalitarianism can corrupt any underlying political system without a problem.
It doesn't help that 'communism', and specifically the implementation thereof, doesn't have a single, clear definition. I think it is true that the 3025 portrayal of the Confederation was meant to evoke Soviet Russia and Maoist China, but it's also true that the Confederation doesn't have strong ideological links to Marxism.
I'm not sure whether I feel the Confederation has gained or lost depth since 3025. The overt Soviet/Maoist parallels were toned down, but the Chinese racial stereotyping was rather irritating. One step forward, another step back, I suppose.
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It doesn't help that 'communism', and specifically the implementation thereof, doesn't have a single, clear definition. I think it is true that the 3025 portrayal of the Confederation was meant to evoke Soviet Russia and Maoist China, but it's also true that the Confederation doesn't have strong ideological links to Marxism.
I'm not sure whether I feel the Confederation has gained or lost depth since 3025. The overt Soviet/Maoist parallels were toned down, but the Chinese racial stereotyping was rather irritating. One step forward, another step back, I suppose.
Meh. Talk about the procurement structure of an certain swiss insurance company broke my concentration.
Long story cut short: You´re right that the chinese-russian feeling of the 3025 era, coupled with a heavy dose of jellow peril/Ming the Terrible collored the early years of the Confederation. It´s also true that there never were any real ideological links to Marxism, wherby I mostly guess that has something to do with the authors of the time being clueless about that, besides propaganda.
But ancient chinese culture and way of political thinking is very interesting, if a tad alien/evil to our modern western mind, and tho the authors don´t really manage it so far, it is going in the right direction to be a modernist version of the kind of country the Qin state always wanted to be. I actually want to see more development in this direction.
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I hope RedMarauder was reading all that. :(
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Just to be clear, my question wasn't meant as a rhetorical rebuttal, but an honest inquiry. In all my years of Battletech fandom, I've never gotten the impression the Capellan Confederation resembled the modern or historical PRC. When I encounter a perspective different from my own, I try to do my best to understand it. 3rdCrucisLancers perspective is different than mine, but I think he described himself adequately enough that I understand how he can see a resemblance. I'd more than welcome the same from RedMarauder, or indeed anyone else.
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Yeah well, posting about fictional countries tends to remind people of real countries, and whenever people are reminded of real countries, Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) goes into overdrive. I have my tinfoil hat on right now, and it's receiving vibes of bad opinions being unsaid thanks to Rule 4, and that makes me feel bad because I wish everyone could just get along like happy fluffy bunnies. Just sayin'.
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I always got a command economy vibe and the 'freedom' to dissent against the Liaos resulting in that naiive person's 'relocation' or 'disappearance', while next door in the FedSuns if you complained about the First Prince he'd just tell you to sit and spin then ignore you.
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It's possible I'm so busy looking at the individual trees that I don't see the forest. It may be similar to the way I've always seen the Federated Suns as more closely resembling Bonapartist France than the Britain or America it is so often compared to. A general "feels like" rather than a "its organs of government most closely resemble X"
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I always got a command economy vibe and the 'freedom' to dissent against the Liaos resulting in that naiive person's 'relocation' or 'disappearance', while next door in the FedSuns if you complained about the First Prince he'd just tell you to sit and spin then ignore you.
Given that all of the succesor states are defacto absolute monarchies regardless of their styles and forms are they not all ultimately command economies with the difference between one state and another being in degree rather than in principal?
i sincerely doubt that even the maskirovka are capable (ie they have better things to do with their time and resources) of reaching down into every random location in the entire confederation and "disappearing" everyone who has a grumble after a bad day at work.
this message brought to you by your local maskirovka branch office
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And is the Mask really worse than Loki?
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Given that all of the succesor states are defacto absolute monarchies regardless of their styles and forms are they not all ultimately command economies with the difference between one state and another being in degree rather than in principal?
No.
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Yeah, the manner in which an economy is integrated is completely independent of how the government is operated. Accepting that all the Great Houses are monarchies, how their economies differ wildly. While none of them are command economies in the strictist sense, the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation are both to some degree command economies.
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Yet some people will look only at their command economies and immediately denounce the rest of the culture associated with it.
I'm afraid of those people. They are too bright and make loud noises.
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Personally, I always saw the Capellan Confederation as the People's Republic of China especially when the parallels between Capellan Reunification and the One China Policy were basically one to one during the Capellan Solution Duology. Then again, I basically read the novels back in those days. Then I read the original House books, and I learned the Capellan had an odd cultural mix. I still see them as Chinese Cultural, but I know think that they use to wear kilts and speak with Welsh accent.
Yeah, the manner in which an economy is integrated is completely independent of how the government is operated. Accepting that all the Great Houses are monarchies, how their economies differ wildly. While none of them are command economies in the strictist sense, the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation are both to some degree command economies.
If we are going by degrees, I'd basically say that the Capellan economy under Maxmillian Liao in the Liaoist Doctrine was 99.99999% a command economy, a economy where the government sets prices and supply as oppose to the market. Romano Liao, it was straight on no wiggling room command economy: it was also in the dirt thanks to most surviving companies forced to make weapons of some sort. Under Sun-Tzu, the economy liberalized a bit, but it is still strictly ordered around by the Capellan Confederation governmental organ, the Ministry Planning Committee as of Handbook: House Liao.
Oddly Candice Liao before her death had sat on two of these committees. She served once before she left the CC and then she regained her seat after that reunifictation. After I learned that, I gave a more discerning eye towards that so-called ally known as the St. Ives Compact.
You know that was one of the first things that I noticed when I finally read the House Books was the economic control of each of the states. The only two that I liked were the Federated Suns and Free Worlds League models where you can fail as the owner of a small business based strictly on the market. Laisez Faire for the win! The Lyran model has too much picking winners for my liking since their economy is more a European Common Market model. To each their own, I guess in that regard.
Yet some people will look only at their command economies and immediately denounce the rest of the culture associated with it.
I'm afraid of those people. They are too bright and make loud noises.
I'm not particularly fond of them in the Clans where the Merchant Caste is basically setting prices and supply as opposed to a market. Though warriors arguing about how much bushels of wheat should be produced on a Clan Homeworld would be funny especially if they had no idea that wheat didn't grow on that planet due to the toxic atmosphere, and then would come batchells about who's fault was it to order the high number of bushels in the first place which killed x number of people and slowed production of component z for omnimech y. Gott in Himmel, I sometimes have odd forms of humor running through my head.
Though Nicholas Kerensky oddly used the command economy to his advantage back in the early days of the Clans. You could say that the Wolverines' Catalyst for Rebellion was breaking the strict quota for bushels of wheat.
Yeah, the manner in which an economy is integrated is completely independent of how the government is operated. Accepting that all the Great Houses are monarchies, how their economies differ wildly. While none of them are command economies in the strictist sense, the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation are both to some degree command economies.
Actually, I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. I enjoy the economic sections of Housebooks especially the business section. And honestly, the House Liao sadden me. There were no insurance companies, fast food restaurants, construction companies, investment houses/banks (Kind of impossible due to the Liaoist Doctrine even the Sun-Tzu version), or even a private jumpship firm. For shame, every state should have named jumpship firms even if nationalized analogous to airlines with distinct livery and fancy jumpship sails similar to airline tails. Sigh, their day will never come again.
Though there was one thing that I liked about Handbook: House Liao one. I liked the employees of Asuncion Industries missing the free market of FedCom.
Though on the bright side, there was no Foxconn analogy to cement Sun-Tzu's CC with the modern view of the PRC. Beside for that to work, the company would have to be based in the St. Ives Commonality with ties to Apple Interstellar Computers. And let's face it, the various trade boards of other states would complain about 1)unauthorized technology being sent to the Capellan Confederation and 2)Jumpship shipping costs probably don't work out to build electronics cheaply in the CC as oppose to in reality. The closest would be StarCorps, and they are mostly just a megacoporation with Capellan ties more than anything.
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No.
Yeah, the manner in which an economy is integrated is completely independent of how the government is operated. Accepting that all the Great Houses are monarchies, how their economies differ wildly. While none of them are command economies in the strictist sense, the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation are both to some degree command economies.
We'll have to disagree on that then as I'm pretty confident that if the first prince / archon / captain general / designated underling says jump the major economic powers of the realm have few if any options beyond asking how high because if push comes to shove they will lose. Even multinational corporations can't face down a successor lord - this isn't Shadowrun after all.
Even in a democracy the procurement division eventually stops buying Helldivers, and the autocracies of BTech should be capable of acting more decisively if of course they choose to. e.g. I'm the princes champion we are buying centurion omnis from 3146 instead of enforcers go and make it happen or be replaced by someone who can.
As an example I seem to recall the Fedsuns economy being dislocated because the first prince commanded that civilian jumpships augment his military transports for the fourth war. A command was given and the economy was directly affected.
In one sense every economy is a command economy by dint of the customer "commanding" what they are prepared to purchase. View the government as just a very big customer who happens to be specific about what they want to buy and suddenly the command economy is just an economy which is as efficient or inefficient as the people running it just like the rest of the government. National governments don't need to directly control/own company's/industries to command them.
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While they have the option of instituting armed enforcement of such directives, none have the necessary resources. Additionally, they depend on nobility in the setting to maintain control, who will almost certainly depend on the economic processes that the House Lord is disrupting. While they may forgive such interference in the midst of dire emergency (assuming they agree such a state exists), they would not collectively stand for it for long. Of such things is armed rebellion made.
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While they have the option of instituting armed enforcement of such directives, none have the necessary resources. Additionally, they depend on nobility in the setting to maintain control, who will almost certainly depend on the economic processes that the House Lord is disrupting. While they may forgive such interference in the midst of dire emergency (assuming they agree such a state exists), they would not collectively stand for it for long. Of such things is armed rebellion made.
I think if we are talking about Battlemech production then I have to say yes the successor lords most certainly do have the ability to enforce their will.
If we are talking about the price of a burger [I know from one extreme to the other]...... Why the Cat is a successor lord / designated underling worrying about that when they have the first lordship / longstanding vendetta with the neighbours to concentrate on.
I really see the economies of the successor states as being akin to those of medieval Europe the king commands major policy and the underlings send out the commands to make it happen; if it affects the war effort it's a command economy, if it doesn't then it's not a command economy. With different houses taking different views of what does and doesn't affect the war effort leading to differences in degree rather than in principal.
i.e I see no white hat economies in BTech they are all grey.
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Wolflord,
I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. You're arguing that any of the Great Houses could enact command economies, which is largely true, as they are essentially absolute monarchs. Not all of them choose to do so, however. It's the difference between "X is illegal" and "X could be made illegal". The first describes what is, the second is defining the legal authority of the state's leaders.
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As well as the limitations inherent in governmental power. The government may be technically capable of making it illegal to make anything but AS7-D3 Atlas mechs in any existing factories. It may be willing to deploy troops to force the issue. But that doesn't make it possible to do without the country imploding.
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Wolflord,
I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. You're arguing that any of the Great Houses could enact command economies, which is largely true, as they are essentially absolute monarchs. Not all of them choose to do so, however. It's the difference between "X is illegal" and "X could be made illegal". The first describes what is, the second is defining the legal authority of the state's leaders.
Madcappellan
Almost, I'm also arguing that it matters less where the "commands" come from than whether or not the "commands" are the correct ones.
Boring but true example alert.
There usd to be a government organisation (in my country) called the milk marketing board, one of its functions was to set the price of milk paid by distributor to producer. It did so at a level that the dairy farms covered their expenses and made a modest profit.(this is an evil command economy). When the government removed the milk marketing board the distributors "commanded" the market to change by refusing to pay above a certain price to the producers in this country, the producers had the option of selling at a loss or not selling (this is the good free market economy). In this case the command economy provided a good service for all while the free market resulted in the collapse of the entire business sector. It really had nothing to do with who gave the "commands" but whether the "commands" were the correct ones.
Returning to the title we are not evil and I have plasma weapons that agree with me :)
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IT IS OFFICIAL, GENTLEMEN:
You must consider the source. Being that it was Herb, from his POV no one is evil as he is the most evil person in the BT verse [ :D ]. Sure he is equitable in the amount of evil he inflicts upon all the Great Houses. Admittedly, the Cappies come out of this a little better off than the rest post-Jihad, but they did come out of it unscathed. It's just the Cappies (and Dracs) turn right now to be up while the remaining three will be backsliding through the Dark Ages. Once the IlClan is annointed, I'm sure that everyone will be getting head-slapped by the IlKhan and his forces.
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You must consider the source. Being that it was Herb, from his POV no one is evil as he is the most evil person in the BT verse
Also note that the word 'Capellan' is very ambiguous.
People whose ethnic background is of that the Capellan Confederation? People who live under the laws of the Confederation? Citizens of the Confederation? People who live on 'Capellan' worlds, even those not currently part of the Confederation? (e.g. is a person born and raised on Chesterton, who has never been to the Confederation and feels no link to the cultures of the Confederation, a Capellan?) Just the people of the planet Capella? The people of or descended from the Capellan Hegemony?
And then none of the above have anything to do with the Capellan system of government, or the doctrines and ideologies that characterise the Capellan Confederation. Capellan identity has nothing to do with politics: surely a St. Ives separatist or a Free Capella true believer are just as much Capellan as Sun-Tzu Liao himself?
'The Capellans are not evil', on its own, is a phrase that means almost nothing. At most it tells us that Capellans aren't some murderously evil race of demons, but I think we already knew that.
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Just a thought: It´s all too easy to mix up wartime economics, crisis economics and general command economics. Sure, the former two are a subgroup of the later one, but with either time or goal defined restrictions. This may go hand in hand with a planned economy, a central features of the countries the capcon is compared with, that hasn´t been mentioned yet (In the sense of direct, long-time planning, see below)
The SW4 offers a good example of wartime economics, when Hanse stripped the Suns bare of trade JumpShips to faciliate the invasion. The economic whole created by that action led directly to the upcoming crisis in the Suns. At that time, it was thought that the income generated by the annexed worlds would alleviate the problems just in time. As a footnote, it´s been implyed that this kind of wartime economics bled the already fragile Outer March (don´t have the correct name at hand) white.
It´s been noted in HB:HL that the CC laboured under wartime economics since the fall of the Star League and up to Romanos ascension to the throne. From there on, it changed pace to a a crisis economics and still was one until the beginning of the Trinity Alliance.
What I´m not sure about is where to put market regulation rules and monopolies. Wolflord mentioned the Milk Market, something that is common in many 1st and 2nd world countries to protect the basic living standard of their citizens, then there state-owned monopolies everywhere (spirits, tobacco and gambling come to mind), as well as special import taxes that should protect the local industry from foregn market domination.
Cue to planned economics. Most socialst countries did or do have a centralized, pre-planned economy. Stuff like the soviets 5 year plans was the real antithesis to western-style free market. It actually doesn´t matter if a companyn is state-owned or privatelly owned not which restrictions they labour under, what matters is if they are free to compete on an open market or centrally controlled. (Now, for those of you who would say there´s no such thing as state-owned but successful companies, take a look at VW, T-Mobil and DHL, three companies that dominate the market, are global players in their principal owner is the state.)
Now, HB:HL, Objectives and Field Manuals give the impression that most Companies have been privatelly owned for quite some time and the short centralized span begann with Maxs´ Liaoist Doctrine, something that could be seen as equal to wartime communism. The Liaoist Doctrine held until Sun-Tzu took over, so a very short time period.
And no, forced marketing doctrine like: "No Capellan citizen has to pay more for his cup of sweet-sour soup, his portion of szechuan pork and a Tsingtao beer than 5 bucks" are not considered command market by me. HWat it is, is good civic service ;)
@Mecha-Anchovy:
It would be interesting in how much your typical capellan citizen actually makes a difference between territory, polity and their rulership. From the fluff so far, I often get the impression that they don´t differentiate at all, something that makes movements as the ... omg.. spelling... "XY de Guang" possible in the first place. In a certain sense, I always wondered about whether the St.Yved citizens actually noticed the change in rulership, when everything else stayed "capellan" to them.
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In one sense every economy is a command economy by dint of the customer "commanding" what they are prepared to purchase.
You should read up on what a command economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_economy) is before discussing it further.
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It seems based, a little too much for my liking, on Communist China...
The power of iconography is strong, yet also often misleading.
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Can't comment. Can't risk 3rd warning over Rule 4. Darn you, chilling effect.
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Can't comment. Can't risk 3rd warning over Rule 4. Darn you, chilling effect.
Is that when Chilly Willy cries ice cubes?
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No, when people stop talking about real life comparisons out of fear of being banned for a week.
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Actually, I like your response. Maybe it's the resulting shivers you get from drinking a milkshake too fast.
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Wow! I tried, honestly I tried to read everything before I posted, but 37 pages of bickering interspersed with hilarious puns...I got like 5 pages in, then just cut to the last three. So forgive me if someone else already said as much.
Yes, the Capellans are evil.
So are the Kuritans, the Davions, well, basically every major power. That, as far as I've always interpreted the universe, is one central theme. The power players are all selfish, bigoted isolationists who want to wipe out, conquer, or convert everyone who doesn't agree with their vision of a perfect universe.
But at the heart of it all, the truly evil power was originally Comstar. Now it's the wobbies, everything that was bad about Comstar concentrated in one collective of fanatical lunatics. Post-WOB Comstar ain't as bad as they used to be, but I'd still not consider them good. But everyone is a saint beside the Word of Blake. Religion is bad. Extremists of an sort are bad. But when you combine the two, hot damn!
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[copper]
And with this, gentlemen, we have stepped right to rule #4 threshold. I think there are numerous examples in the BT universe to make your points, without resorting to recent real world ones that may end resulting in warnings...
[copper]
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So how does 2x Tien Zong + 2x Catapult II + 2x Lu Wei Bing sound vs 4x Savage Wolf?
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So how does 2x Tien Zong + 2x Catapult II + 2x Lu Wei Bing sound vs 4x Savage Wolf?
Not even close. You mentioned the mad cats´ll be optimized, so I rather put them in the 3K BV bracket. So, a 12K force with a very relliable long range vs a 9K+ force?
At that point, you can simply take 4 Behemoth II and focus fire.
Repeating myself, but that´s ok:
Thinking about that (again) makes me a sad citizen: Why can´t CERPPCs be field-towed? Oh why!
Imagine it, rows upon rows of brave capellan citizens facing the murder-machines: "Madness? This ain´t madness! This. IS. SIAN!" followed by "Feel the thunder! Kaboosh!" Cut the the a heavy rain of arrows/lightning, chose either "Hero" or "300", your style.
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Not even close. You mentioned the mad cats´ll be optimized, so I rather put them in the 3K BV bracket. So, a 12K force with a very relliable long range vs a 9K+ force?
At that point, you can simply take 4 Behemoth II and focus fire.
I'm expecting to lose, need to get the new-blood hooked on the game, all I need to do is last for a bit and try to make evil-foster-nephew think a bit more tactically.
Savage Wolves will have 2x CERPPC + CERLL + 3x CMPL + 6x DHS.
If I make the terrain more broken than before that should help a bit as he hasn't faced jumpers before.
Maybe an improved pilot since I'm looking at six mechs vs four.
Don't want to get the evil-foster-nephew completely addicted to Clantech (thats my candy :) )
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evil-foster-nephew
What I don´t get: Why don´t you grad a starter book and have a go for it? There´s fiction to get into, pilots to bond with and kids aren´t too stupid to handle it.
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What I don´t get: Why don´t you grad a starter book and have a go for it? There´s fiction to get into, pilots to bond with and kids aren´t too stupid to handle it.
Wolf and Blake is the only starter book I have easy access to and with the kids background I think some of the characters in it may do more harm than good :(
But now that you make me think about it Marwynn's take on Dechan Fraser in his Wolf and Dragon story would be a character that might get his attention in a good way. And there is Wolves on the Border and Wolf Pack to add to that, maybe not Heir to the Dragon though.... :)
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But at the heart of it all, the truly evil power was originally Comstar.
Nonsense.
The Terran Hegemony and the Star League were also evil. ;)
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Nonsense.
The Terran Hegemony and the Star League were also evil. ;)
Yeah, but they're dead. :P
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Speaking as a fairly dedicated CapCon fan myself, I have to say that every time I see this thread I want to scream out at the top of my lungs:
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!
This message paid for by the Committee to Make CapCon More Evil. No actual morals were used in the making of this post. Any admissions of evilness or wrongdoing are entirely accidental, and inadmissible in court. Not recommended for internal use. Use only as directed by a certified Evil Overlord. In the case of general optimism or "warm fuzzy feelings" discontinue use immediately and punt a kitten.
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Very true. At least the Capellans put their extreme paranoia out there for all to see :)
We used to hide it in warehouses on the frontiers. Then, we lost those worlds.
Speaking as a fairly dedicated CapCon fan myself, I have to say that every time I see this thread I want to scream out at the top of my lungs:
Comrade Citizen, you are doing it wrong. Who is more powerful, a single chainsaw-murderer, or Monsanto? No, hide that black pit of despair. There is no need to advertise any more that we are the Bad Guys. Believe me, everyone knows.
Do you need proof? Who would dare trust us? Who would allow us to stand in authority, had they the chance to rebel? We, sir, are the Greater Humanity, not only because of our inherent quality, but because of the inherent lack of quality of the others. The tried to break us, and they came close, sir, but they lacked what it took to finish the job. Rest assured, when it is our turn, we will not falter.
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You know what I just realized? Everyone in the Inner Sphere back in 3025 was good except for the Capellans and the Dracs.
Then in 3062 everyone in the Inner Sphere became evil except the Knights of Randis.
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You know what I just realized? Everyone in the Inner Sphere back in 3025 was good except for the Capellans and the Dracs.
Then in 3062 everyone in the Inner Sphere became evil except the Knights of Randis.
You can't trust them knights of randis, what are they really up to? :o
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There is no need to advertise any more that we are the Bad Guys. Believe me, everyone knows.
Soooo..... Are you saying I should or shouldn't continue to build my Palace of Kitten Skulls?
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You know what I just realized? Everyone in the Inner Sphere back in 3025 was good except for the Capellans and the Dracs.
Then in 3062 everyone in the Inner Sphere became evil except the Knights of Randis.
No one is good. Ever. Goodness is a lie to comfort the sheeple.
So yeah, what´re those Randis guys up to?
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No one is good. Ever. Goodness is a lie to comfort the sheeple.
So yeah, what´re those Randis guys up to?
But does that make them evil? I never claimed the Capellans are good, I merely said they're not evil.
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No one is good. Ever. Goodness is a lie to comfort the sheeple.
So yeah, what´re those Randis guys up to?
Are they ordering a whole lot of Kitten Skull Glue?
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Are they ordering a whole lot of Kitten Skull Glue?
I've got a guy for that, but I doubt they would buy it in large enough bulk to make it worth his while.
They should probably just stick to retail.
I mean, have you seen their so called "palace". More like dog house.
Amateurs.
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No one is good. Ever. Goodness is a lie to comfort the sheeple.
Never believe a word said by anyone who uses the term "sheeple".
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I just Googled "sheeple synonyms" in a half-hearted attempt to one-up the poster above me and found the forum for a combat knife-making company.
There were posters on the thread that I found who seriously believed they were the shepherds of the world, because they were into knives and had religion. :o
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There were posters on the thread that I found who seriously believed they were the shepherds of the world, because they were into knives and had religion. :o
Told you so.
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I just Googled "sheeple synonyms" in a half-hearted attempt to one-up the poster above me and found the forum for a combat knife-making company.
There were posters on the thread that I found who seriously believed they were the shepherds of the world, because they were into knives and had religion. :o
Are you referring to a sheepdog?
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Never believe a word said by anyone who uses the term "sheeple".
I must admit I never heard that term until I started posting on this board. Now I find it pretty much hilarious.
There were posters on the thread that I found who seriously believed they were the shepherds of the world, because they were into knives and had religion. :o
This just proves again that life is stranger than fiction. I contrast, if someone would propose such a group to be included as a smallish faction or simple background material for a game, the aithor would be descried as making up stupid stuff.
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This just proves again that life is stranger than fiction. I contrast, if someone would propose such a group to be included as a smallish faction or simple background material for a game, the aithor would be descried as making up stupid stuff.
Or already done in a White Wolf product...
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This just proves again that life is stranger than fiction. I contrast, if someone would propose such a group to be included as a smallish faction or simple background material for a game, the aithor would be descried as making up stupid stuff.
As a general mindset though, I think I've seen that plenty in fiction. BattleTech fiction, even--I remember a few Blakist characters had designs on remaking the world their way as their driving motivation.
OH BOY, THE JIHAD WAS SO REALISTIC
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Just going to take a moment to enjoy the conflation of "BattleTech" and "realistic". :D
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Duchess Amanda Hasek was brought to justice and required to answer for her crimes against the Greater Humanity. Evil?
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Just going to take a moment to enjoy the conflation of "BattleTech" and "realistic". :D
This moment of irony and sarcasm was brought to you by Youngblood, HodgePodge, and the terrible, destructive depths that the human concept of perfection can take individuals to.
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Duchess Amanda Hasek was brought to justice and required to answer for her crimes against the Greater Humanity. Evil?
Not evil, but they may have accidentally done the Davions a favour in the long run.
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So I haven't followed this thread since about 2011, and I am amazed to see it resurface. But I have to ask one thing.
Am I the only one that sees Xin Sheng as a forced cultural reform or revolution of the realm and it's people?
Mind you I do not own the latest book on the Capellans so I do not know how much cultural identity people are allowed to maintain. But at least what it looks like from all other sources it seems like a forced cultural movement. And they are something I generally regard as evil. (Please note the word I in that sentence. Since 'evil' is such a subjective thing.)
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So I haven't followed this thread since about 2011, and I am amazed to see it resurface. But I have to ask one thing.
Am I the only one that sees Xin Sheng as a forced cultural reform or revolution of the realm and it's people?
Mind you I do not own the latest book on the Capellans so I do not know how much cultural identity people are allowed to maintain. But at least what it looks like from all other sources it seems like a forced cultural movement. And they are something I generally regard as evil. (Please note the word I in that sentence. Since 'evil' is such a subjective thing.)
I'm going to guess that it was more of a rebranding exercise than forced cultural adaptation. Too many people too far apart for anything like the historical examples of forced culture to work IMHO.
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I tend to interpret the Xin Sheng movement as Sun Tzu cleverly identifying a sufficently general thread, a commonality of general identity for the ethnically and culturally diverse peoples of the Capellan Confederation. A "theme" that the populations of the Confederation's worlds could rally behind, and that could be legitimized through the CCAF's renewed prowess, initially demonstrated in the reclaimation of the worlds of the Chaos March. It was supposed to teach the people of a state that had historically been seen, and was indeed seen by its own people, as weaker than its neighbors, that the Confederation need not bend the knee to anyone. Put another way, it is one thing for a once weak person to become strong. It is yet another, to make that person proud.
Meh, my two cents, at any rate.
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I tend to interpret the Xin Sheng movement as Sun Tzu cleverly identifying a sufficently general thread, a commonality of general identity for the ethnically and culturally diverse peoples of the Capellan Confederation. A "theme" that the populations of the Confederation's worlds could rally behind, and that could be legitimized through the CCAF's renewed prowess, initially demonstrated in the reclaimation of the worlds of the Chaos March. It was supposed to teach the people of a state that had historically been seen, and was indeed seen by its own people, as weaker than its neighbors, that the Confederation need not bend the knee to anyone. Put another way, it is one thing for a once weak person to become strong. It is yet another, to make that person proud.
Meh, my two cents, at any rate.
Nicely put. The pride-part is the most relevant.
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Am I the only one that sees Xin Sheng as a forced cultural reform or revolution of the realm and it's people?
It wasn't. Xin Sheng was really two things - a call for Capellan pride, and a refocusing of national resources towards the restoration of the Confederation.
You must remember that at the time the Xin Sheng campaign was launched, the Capellan Confederation had been reduced solely to the Capella and Sian Commonalities. Sian Commonality has always had a majority Chinese population. Ergo, it was a populace most likely to associate their Capellan heritage with Chinese derived culture.
Handbook House Liao indicates the increased focus on displaying the trappings of Chinese culture, architecture, and style were a fad taken on by the public largely in Sian Commonality, and largely ignored elsewhere. There's no evidence of the kind of enforced cultural adjustments seen in the Draconis Combine in any published source, to my knowledge.
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Put another way, it is one thing for a once weak person to become strong. It is yet another, to make that person proud.
And then from there, about a micrometer to becoming profoundly, intensely irritating.
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And then from there, about a micrometer to becoming profoundly, intensely irritating.
You would prefer you opposition to roll over and wave their legs in the air whenever you jump in system Quineg?
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If the Capellans are not supposed to be evil, at least one MechWarrior from Warrior House Ijori failed to get the memo (http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CAT35TR002-BattleTech-TRO3145-Liao_1920x1080.jpg)...
(Thanks to MadCap for catching this one.)
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If the Capellans are not supposed to be evil, at least one MechWarrior from Warrior House Ijori failed to get the memo (http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CAT35TR002-BattleTech-TRO3145-Liao_1920x1080.jpg)...
(Thanks to MadCap for catching this one.)
ROFL well spotted! [cheers]
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If the Capellans are not supposed to be evil, at least one MechWarrior from Warrior House Ijori failed to get the memo (http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CAT35TR002-BattleTech-TRO3145-Liao_1920x1080.jpg)...
(Thanks to MadCap for catching this one.)
It is a Raven, after all, the Mech of evelish evildom!
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And then from there, about a micrometer to becoming profoundly, intensely irritating.
True, although in the interest of equity, having choked on clouds of FedCom smug for decades, being a sore winner should probably be expected. ;D
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If the Capellans are not supposed to be evil, at least one MechWarrior from Warrior House Ijori failed to get the memo (http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/CAT35TR002-BattleTech-TRO3145-Liao_1920x1080.jpg)...
(Thanks to MadCap for catching this one.)
I don't get it.
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I don't get it.
Then I´m sorry to inform you that you´re not baddie enough to join this elite circle.
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I don't get it.
It says "baddie" on the side of one of the 'mechs.
Cf. the name on an actual "good guy" tank:
(http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/31/media-31703/large.jpg)
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It says "baddie" on the side of one of the 'mechs.
Cf. the name on an actual "good guy" tank:
(http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/31/media-31703/large.jpg)
To quote Paul Bettany: "I'm not sure I'd consider him a role model."
Incidentally, nice pic. A Matilda? Main gun seems too small to be a Churchill, though I'm no expert by any stretch.
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Incidentally, nice pic. A Matilda? Main gun seems too small to be a Churchill, though I'm no expert by any stretch.
Early Churchill, with the 2pdr main gun and the 3" CS howitzer in the hull.
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Early Churchill, with the 2pdr main gun and the 3" CS howitzer in the hull.
A tank whose chief advantage is that the Italian Armor was even worse.
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A tank whose chief advantage is that the Italian Armor was even worse.
I think you're thinking of another British tank. The Churchill didn't reach North Africa until late 1942, and was pretty solid at the time.
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Rommel didn't like it when he assumed one flank was safe from attack only to have Churchill tanks start coming up over the hills.
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Rommel didn't like it when he assumed one flank was safe from attack only to have Churchill tanks start coming up over the hills.
Common problem. The Churchills of 6 Guards Tank Brigade easily scaled terrain in the Suisse Normande that the Germans believed impassable in Operation BLUECOAT in '44 as well.
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There was one benefit to designing a tank to fight a trench war in Northern France. It was supposed to scale really wide trenches, steep hills and step inclines.
I would love to see a Churchill analogy for the FedSuns, but that's because I am an Anglophile so I want my faction of choice to use it of course :D
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It says "baddie" on the side of one of the 'mechs.
Y'all expect me to see that from my phone cybernetic implants (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,9137.msg716274.html#msg716274)?
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So I haven't followed this thread since about 2011, and I am amazed to see it resurface. But I have to ask one thing.
Am I the only one that sees Xin Sheng as a forced cultural reform or revolution of the realm and it's people?
Mind you I do not own the latest book on the Capellans so I do not know how much cultural identity people are allowed to maintain. But at least what it looks like from all other sources it seems like a forced cultural movement. And they are something I generally regard as evil. (Please note the word I in that sentence. Since 'evil' is such a subjective thing.)
I think that's stretching things just a little.
Handbook: House Liao suggests that the "Xin Sheng" movement has been gaining greater impetus, and helping to further redefine the status of most of the branches of life in the Confederation in the eyes of Capellan society, as well as the fact that it's a directed effort by Sun-Tzu to bring the people greater rights.
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You know, I've been thinking about this long and hard and I have come to the conclusion that the Capellan Confederation is not evil. Well, torturing people and whatnot is evil per se (like the other Houses don't do it), and they've had insane Chancellors and whatnot, but overall I don't think they're evil. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather live in Davion space, but I think the overall cultural expression of the Capellans (which, thinking about it, really isn't that much different from the Korean culture in which I was raised) is good.
Now House Kurita, they're evil.
I think that the people of each realm's planets and military are too often vilified, but it often stems from human nature and certain world views. No desire to list into that rule 4 territory.
As you pointed out, House Kurita is at times evil. Just when you think they turned the righteousness corner, they do something evil to make sure everyone knows the score. But their people and most of the military are not evil. Evil is a shadow on the citizens by their lords. If one choses to hate that, then that is their prerogative. In turn, the Capellans are not evil. Their leadership is suspect at certain times.
House Liao is... mostly good. :) Capellan people are unjustly accused. House Kurita is partly good with a chance of Jinjiro every few generations. Their warrior families and loyal citizens won't like it either after it happens. House Marik is divided and hamstrung, but the Free Worlders are free. Lyrans are glad not to be serfs, while House Steiner grieves that convention. The Davions train spies so well that they befriend vulnerable people and help to give half their empire away in one massive crush of assaults and don't tell you that it'll become known in humiliating fashion. People will argue that they wear white hats. But the Fedsuns citizenry are free to join the military. :)
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Am I the only one that sees Xin Sheng as a forced cultural reform or revolution of the realm and it's people?
I see it as a lot like the Germanisation of the Lyran Commonwealth back in the early 25th century. The sidebar in HB:HS (p. 116) uses all the same language as the description of the Xin Sheng movement: it was in addition to local cultures, not replacing it, it was embraced by the people as a shared national identity, it was partly a spontaneous response to a beloved leader who wore the trappings of that culture, and so on.
That doesn't mean it's not true that Xin Sheng, and for that matter the Germanisation of the Lyrans, meant marginalising people not of the correct culture or had a disturbing element of personality cult to it, because I think both those things are true and there's a lot of revisionist whitewashing about them, but I think it's important to note that Xin Sheng is not without precedent.