The Capellans are not evil

[Lord Harlock]

Honestly all the factions got some dose of America in them from Americans descendants moving from the inner colonies to the outer or what would become the Great Houses. There are American named planets across the Inner Sphere. The Davion family came from North America. Well specifically Canada is where the Davion family came from before Scotland and Avon, France. No one is really Space America, but the closest is the Rim Collection who have an elected president for a certain term and legislature.

The Combine got several worlds that are really American like Midway. The Capellan honestly got the same deal with worlds like Old Kentucky. However, the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns got the lionshare of the legacy other than the Terran Hegemony. The Lyran Commonwealth got a larger portion of the legacy as well, but there is something different about their attitude. Then again, I always got a Hanoverian England Period attitude from them.

But the two big inheritors were the Free Worlds League and Federated Suns. Free Worlds League got the whole legislature and democratic principles. The Suns marginalized their legislature. Their inheritance is something different; plus it can easily come from England as well though it is with an American twist.  Though the League has a constitution in its Document of Incorporation, I'm not sure what is in it, but one odd thing is in there that allows Parliament the ability to readjust rights. However, that does not seem to include Lockean Rights. In fact, I'd say that the highest power in the Free Worlds League is Parliament when it comes to what are the individual citizens civil rights which can be altered. Which is honestly closer to British Parliaments. The Home Defense Act is closer to the pre Cold War America raising state militias rather than a true standing army in times of need. 

Now before the Lyran fans go crazy, I know the Document of Acceptance has some form of rights for the citizens, but it is vague and not really well defined either. The Suns to my knowledge is the only state that has a Lockean list of civil rights aka the Six Liberties spelled out in the Crucis Pact. It's the closest to any of the governments in Battletech to the American Bill of the Rights since it defines what the FedSuns government can't do to its citizens. And in fact in addition to speaking English is probably the leading reasons why a lot people make the assumption that it is Space America. Other than the argument that since it was the antagonist fighting against the Cold War evil stand-ins that it became Space America.

The truth is the Suns was founded on similar lines as the USA, but due to alterations, it became Space Camelot. It isn't Space France either. The problem with calling the Suns Space France is that it is not Republican France of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. And it is not the France of Louis the XIV of "Je suis l'etat." That spirit is honestly embedded in the Capellan Confederation in the idea of the Chancellor being the only interpreter of  Greater Humanity, and thus the position of Chancellor becomes the embodiment of the Capellan state.

That's not true with the Suns. Davion First Princes are bound by the law in the Suns, and it was why Katherine, Edward the Terrible, and the Varneys faced such problems in the Suns when they tried to change things. All tried to take away the rights of the people of the Suns, and each of those groups were defeated by popular movements eventually lead by another member of the Davion family. Then again, the populace is armed as well, so it's hard to be an absolute dictator in the Suns if you break the Six Liberties.

However, what makes the Suns different from America is the adoption of nobility and the President of the Suns becoming the First Prince. Which is something that happen to all of the protopowers mostly due to probably to the sheer amount of time that it took to administer a national election. Plus, the Suns is highly clothed in the ideas of well Camelot. (That is also why I have a distaste for the novel, the Ideal War. It mostly ignores that the Suns is basically Space Camelot that many names are taken from Arthurian Legend and that it was highly detailed in the original Housebook and the Warrior Trilogy. Plus eventually due to the Free Worlds League lack of knowledge about Arthur which is a plot point in the Ideal War, that faction gets Camelot named warships. UGH! Oh well, Yvonne got them back when she named that captured Blakest vessel, the Excalibur. Oh and the Knights of the Inner Sphere got killed. Yeah!)

But the Steiner did get one thing of America, they got Dixie and vague form of checks and balances that doesn't often work that well i.e. Alesandro Steiner and Katherine Steiner-Davion.

So in conclusion, the Free Worlds League got the antebellum USA's state issues. The Steiners got Dixie and probably southern cuisine to go with it. The Draconis Combine got planet names and probably descendants of the USA though everyone else did as well. The Capellan Confederation got moonshine from Old Kentucky. And the FedSuns got Lockean Rights.

And the Clans got a rock from the Terran Hegemony that spelled out how to be Space America as well. Nicholas promptly ground it up and went in a totally different direction.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

The Six Liberties are ideas given form in a document that governed a precursor state.  That's definitely more in line with British tradition than anywhere else, which is governed by a collection of documents rather than just one. For all the damage Stackpole did to the FS having unique character, the source materials do know where to take their cues from.

(The Articles of Acceptance do actually define the rights of Lyran citizens and the duties of an Archon but I'm sure you didn't know that).

[MadCapellan]

The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France.  It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.

[HikageMaru]

The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France.  It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.

A friend of mine described the FedSuns with a different historical (20th Century) metaphor, with respect to their military expansionism, but it would probably be to inflammatory to repeat here.

[jklantern]

I think we'll all agree that the most evil faction is CLEARLY Niops.  They must be stopped before they conquer everything with their enormous brains.

[Kojak]

The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France.  It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.

...while the peasantry scrabbles in the mud to make a living. Soldiery and dirt farmers, that's the FedSuns in a nutshell.

[Lord Harlock]

The Federated Suns best approximates Napoleonic France, not Revolutionary or Monarchist France.  It holds to similarly hypocritical ideals of imposing freedom and liberty by the sword and worshiping military excellence and science.

Except the imposing "freedom" by the sword was a Revolutionary French concept as well. How else do you explain seizing of the Rhineland in 1794,Italy in 1796, and other engagements till Napoleon decalred himself Emperor in 1802 which are called French Revolutionary Wars? The real problem with comparing Napoleonic France and the Federated Suns is where power was derived from. Napoleon loved to use plebiscites to make it seem that he was a popular supported by the people. The best comparison to Napoleon would be Simon who declared himself First Prince. The problem is that Simon's power was derived from amending the Crucis Pact via the High Council which is a totally different process.

Also, the problem with saying that the Suns is France utterly or Napoleonic France is that it doesn't seem like Napoleonic France. Again, I merely have to bring up the fact that Napoleon still spread the concepts of the French Revolution which was defined in the Rights of Man and are defined as Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Though Liberty is in there, it is overshadowed by equality and brotherhood which are concepts more espoused by the Capellan Confederation and Greater Humanity. The Suns are defined more by the concepts of John Locke in life, liberty, and property which are British or American.

Honestly, that's why I have the problem with calling the Suns, France in Space. It has people who speak French, but it doesn't have a French style of government or even its ideals which defines its liberties. And then I realized that the Suns got several things from America, France, Britain, and Spanish and Italian cultures. Though it is mostly from a Western Civilization tradition, however what unites all of these cultures is that most of them sheer some sort of legacy in Arthurian Mythos. So, the Suns is Space Camelot. (The provinces of France along the English coast have traditions that deal with Arthur as well considering many of those people came from people chased out of Britain by the Saxons. Americans brought some traditions to Arthur as well though nothing that has ever been worth noting.) And it is the best way to describe it because subscribing to one nation as the Suns, it is the reuniting of cultures influenced by Arthurian Mythos back together. Though honestly that's my interpretation, but I feel that it is better than saying that it is Napoleonic France or America in Space.   

The Six Liberties are ideas given form in a document that governed a precursor state.  That's definitely more in line with British tradition than anywhere else, which is governed by a collection of documents rather than just one. For all the damage Stackpole did to the FS having unique character, the source materials do know where to take their cues from.

(The Articles of Acceptance do actually define the rights of Lyran citizens and the duties of an Archon but I'm sure you didn't know that).

Well, I have to agree with you that I forgot about the Second Convent. The problem is that the sourcebooks don't indicate if a new constitution was written under Simon. His Principality was legally enacted through the High Council and probably steering from his father in law, but I can't for the life of me find any indications of a new constitution. I assume a new charter came or he amended a existing one. However, the legal authority of the Six Liberties has never been in question especially since the Old Bailey allows them to be used as legal means for civil distress.

And yes, Vash I am aware of the Articles of Acceptance defining the rights of the citizenry of the Commonwealth. I just can't define if there are any natural rights in there. From what I can tell, it mostly lists the layout of the government like Articles I-III of the U.S. Constitution and how citizens interact with it just not natural right like freedom of speech or property right. It has never been written down whether a citizen has the right to a gun by the Articles. That is what I think is remarkable about the Six Liberties; those liberties defines natural rights in the Suns.
 

[MadCapellan]

Except the imposing "freedom" by the sword was a Revolutionary French concept as well.

I don't see that as an "except". 

The real problem with comparing Napoleonic France and the Federated Suns is where power was derived from. Napoleon loved to use plebiscites to make it seem that he was a popular supported by the people. The best comparison to Napoleon would be Simon who declared himself First Prince. The problem is that Simon's power was derived from amending the Crucis Pact via the High Council which is a totally different process.

Paul Davion didn't travel by horse drawn carriage either, but that doesn't negate the similarities of military dictatorship in Monarchist trappings upheld through show voting and paying lip-service to democratic principles.

Also, the problem with saying that the Suns is France utterly or Napoleonic France is that it doesn't seem like Napoleonic France.

None of the Inner Sphere states are "Space" any existing nation.  Of historical states, I simply feel that ideally and functionally the Federated Suns best resembles Napoleonic France, albeit one with a number of British cultural trappings.

Again, I merely have to bring up the fact that Napoleon still spread the concepts of the French Revolution which was defined in the Rights of Man and are defined as Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Though Liberty is in there, it is overshadowed by equality and brotherhood which are concepts more espoused by the Capellan Confederation and Greater Humanity. The Suns are defined more by the concepts of John Locke in life, liberty, and property which are British or American.

Egality is defined as "social and political equality".  That is most definitely not a Capellan virtue.  Capellans hold to the Sarna Mandate - all act to their best aptitude, leadership by those best qualified.  The Confederation does not see all human beings as deserving of equal treatment.  Some have helped their fellow man, others have not, or have done them harm.  Some are good leaders, some are better followers.  Each gets treated as suits them best.  It is the Federated Suns where everyone, even the nobles, are supposedly beholden to the same laws and every man gets a say in his governance.

Fraternity is quite simply, brotherhood.  I think you'd find it difficult to argue that any modern nation doesn't consider the idea of Fraternity one of their virtues.  A nation that does not value its solidarity is a nation bound for dissolution.  Fraternity and Solidarity are most certainly Davion and Federated Suns values.  Were they not, they would not have fought several Civil Wars, or have gone to war to prevent the secession of Malagrotta.

Though it is mostly from a Western Civilization tradition, however what unites all of these cultures is that most of them sheer some sort of legacy in Arthurian Mythos.

I think if you asked most members of Western Civilizations today what their defining traits were, the Arthurian Mythos would probably rank pretty low down.  I love the story of King Arthur, but it's a pretty Medieval tale, not a basis for a society.  Anyone can call something "Excalibur" or "Pendragon", but it doesn't really define a society.  It's a veneer.  A very attractive veneer, but a veneer nonetheless.  There are no Knights of the Round Table in the Federated Suns.  No Sword in the Stone.  Indeed, as time has advanced we've seen the knights of the Suns give way more and more to professional citizen-soldiers, the ideal of Napoleonic France, where a soldier's birth does not define his role on the battlefield.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Freedom of speech and assembly are both guaranteed by the Articles of Acceptance, so that's at least two in there. And as far as gun ownership goes, I don't think a government with battle armor is particularly troubled as to your ability to buy a .45 auto.

[Lord Harlock]

Paul Davion didn't travel by horse drawn carriage either, but that doesn't negate the similarities of military dictatorship in Monarchist trappings upheld through show voting and paying lip-service to democratic principles.

The problem with that is there is a difference between dictator and a monarch. A monarch is defined and restrained by the law. Most of the time, a dictator is someone elected to supreme power for a certain period of time usually associated with Republics. I'd call Lucien Davion a dictator, but when his successor became President it really was already a monarchy. And just to add the word tyrant to the mix, the word is associated usually with leaders swept to power by a mob that has been given absolute control.

Honestly, I would be loathe to define any of the leaders of the Inner Sphere as tyrants. I'd define the Capellan Chancellor as a Totalitarian Monarchy. 

Egality is defined as "social and political equality".  That is most definitely not a Capellan virtue.  Capellans hold to the Sarna Mandate - all act to their best aptitude, leadership by those best qualified.  The Confederation does not see all human beings as deserving of equal treatment.  Some have helped their fellow man, others have not, or have done them harm.  Some are good leaders, some are better followers.  Each gets treated as suits them best.  It is the Federated Suns where everyone, even the nobles, are supposedly beholden to the same laws and every man gets a say in his governance.

Fraternity is quite simply, brotherhood.  I think you'd find it difficult to argue that any modern nation doesn't consider the idea of Fraternity one of their virtues.  A nation that does not value its solidarity is a nation bound for dissolution.  Fraternity and Solidarity are most certainly Davion and Federated Suns values.  Were they not, they would not have fought several Civil Wars, or have gone to war to prevent the secession of Malagrotta.

I'd give you legal equality for the Suns, but that again is more of a British trait than French. Some of the French Revolutionaries had different understandings of egality and fraternity such as the radical Jacobites and in their radical Terror, and that's who I associate with the phrases made famous by the French Revolution. The Suns specifically promotes the Lockean ideals of life, liberty, and property in the Six Liberties. So my point still stands.

I think if you asked most members of Western Civilizations today what their defining traits were, the Arthurian Mythos would probably rank pretty low down.  I love the story of King Arthur, but it's a pretty Medieval tale, not a basis for a society.  Anyone can call something "Excalibur" or "Pendragon", but it doesn't really define a society.  It's a veneer.  A very attractive veneer, but a veneer nonetheless.  There are no Knights of the Round Table in the Federated Suns.  No Sword in the Stone.  Indeed, as time has advanced we've seen the knights of the Suns give way more and more to professional citizen-soldiers, the ideal of Napoleonic France, where a soldier's birth does not define his role on the battlefield.

Knights of the Federated Suns is a knightly order of the the Suns which was first mentioned in the original sourcebook. But honestly the argument of veneer is a bit of weak argument since all cultures could defined as merely a mask that hides the true bestial nature of humanity from certain points of view. Honestly, the term actually used in the original sourcebook and handbook for Melissa Davion's military reform is Model Army which is English Roundhead lingo.

Honestly, the reason that I dubbed it Space Camelot is that it allows for inclusion for French, Britain, and to lesser extent America. All cultures that have been influenced by the stories of King Arthur. Just like you like to define it closest to Napoleonic France, it's fan reasoned though I give it to you that you are way closer to making your opinion canon than I'll ever be at this point. However, both are fan made comparisons at this point. And honestly, marches is a term used by Charlesmagne Frankish Empire and Alfred the Great's Wessex.

[Minemech]

 The problem with egality is its sheer relativism. A Capellan may say all have an equal chance for citizenship and may choose a path like any other with the same restrictions all others would face in their country with their choices and strengths. In PoliSci I read just how many ideologies play with that word well.

[Neufeld]

Honestly all the factions got some dose of America in them from Americans descendants moving from the inner colonies to the outer or what would become the Great Houses. ...

Let us not forget the Periphery, from an European perspective the Taurian Concordat and the Outworlds Alliance feel very American in concept.

[Dread Moores]

Honestly all the factions got some dose of America in them from Americans descendants moving from the inner colonies to the outer or what would become the Great Houses.

So Space America was a virus? Sweet!  ;D

[False Son]

So Space America was a virus? Sweet!  ;D

The kind that has outbreaks with itching and burning sensation.

And besides, everyone knows that Americans have become Canadians.  Therefor, only Canadians ruled the Hegemony.

[Saul]

For better or worse the Battletech universe is a product of 80’s USA.
It’s for some people easy to identify with a faction but as soon as you get deeper into the fluff there is more than one moment where you shake your head.
There is much America in it and a lot of prejudices and a mishmash of historical influences. That’s what makes it difficult to pin them down to a specific historical era.

[HikageMaru]

My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese.  But they miscalculated---they neglected the Korean market.  Based on Blizzard's experience, if BT were made up today, I'd create a Korean-based Great House.  And I'd keep the rights to the computer market and create a massive computer strategy game with each faction having its own mechs and harvesting resources and what have you.  And I'd sign contracts for at least two BT television channels in Korea.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese.  But they miscalculated---they neglected the Korean market.  Based on Blizzard's experience, if BT were made up today, I'd create a Korean-based Great House.  And I'd keep the rights to the computer market and create a massive computer strategy game with each faction having its own mechs and harvesting resources and what have you.  And I'd sign contracts for at least two BT television channels in Korea.

Is tabletop gaming at all popular in Korea? I thought it was the equivalent of PC gaming in Japan.

[Youngblood]

Is tabletop gaming at all popular in Korea? I thought it was the equivalent of PC gaming in Japan.

PC gaming is a niche market in Japan (since the majority of them spend a good deal of their days on trains), but it's not bordering non-existent like tabletop is in Korea.  Not dead, though--skip to 1:16 in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNyAzmWmcL8

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

So it's more like arcades in America, then.

[Youngblood]

So it's more like arcades in America, then.

Yes.  For the most part, countries in the Far East are the same in terms of stuff like this.  They put much more value on entertainment if it's portable--and also, many people, living so tightly packed together, don't even have the playing space for something like BattleTech.

[HikageMaru]

Yes.  For the most part, countries in the Far East are the same in terms of stuff like this.  They put much more value on entertainment if it's portable--and also, many people, living so tightly packed together, don't even have the playing space for something like BattleTech.

Hence the computer game part. You can't have a Korean Great House in the computer version but not thre tabletop version. So put it in the table top game solely to capitalize in Korea's fastidious computer game market.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Yes.  For the most part, countries in the Far East are the same in terms of stuff like this.  They put much more value on entertainment if it's portable--and also, many people, living so tightly packed together, don't even have the playing space for something like BattleTech.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Japan, yes, but that's partially a product of their time spent on trains. The Chinese and Koreans love MMOs, primarily on PCs. Korea has a real bizarre love for StarCraft, to boot.

Hence the computer game part. You can't have a Korean Great House in the computer version but not thre tabletop version. So put it in the table top game solely to capitalize in Korea's fastidious computer game market.

I don't think the game universe lends itself much to the style of RTS or MMO that plays well in Korea.

[Youngblood]

Not sure I'd agree with that. Japan, yes, but that's partially a product of their time spent on trains. The Chinese and Koreans love MMOs, primarily on PCs. Korea has a real bizarre love for StarCraft, to boot.

Yeah, I might have made too big of a generalization there, and I'm fully aware of the gold-farming market and where it tends to be located.  You are correct in stating that PC gaming is bigger in China and Korea--home consoles often weren't even made for those countries back in the day.  I do still stand by portable gaming being a bit bigger than home console gaming, since region-locking and lugging a big console over for import isn't such a big hurdle in that case of portable systems.

I don't think the game universe lends itself much to the style of RTS or MMO that plays well in Korea.

I might have to disagree with you on this, actually.  There are some really wild types of RTS and MMO games out there, and many of them -are- from Korea.  I recall playing the heck out of Shattered Galaxy in my younger years--it was an MMO -and- RTS with customizeable, individually-tracked units and full PvP.  Much like an online version of MechCommander.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Perhaps, but the question is mass appeal, and these days the mass appeal games are pretty clearly defined.

[Aldous]

Davion is only a good place to live if you've got money. God help you if you're poor in the Federated Suns.

[BrokenMnemonic]

My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese.  But they miscalculated---they neglected the Korean market.  Based on Blizzard's experience, if BT were made up today, I'd create a Korean-based Great House.  And I'd keep the rights to the computer market and create a massive computer strategy game with each faction having its own mechs and harvesting resources and what have you.  And I'd sign contracts for at least two BT television channels in Korea.

I agree with you in part - I also think that the people creating the BattleTech universe originally made the conscious decision to try and avoid having any large house or nationstate that read too directly as being "Space America" to avoid the distinct possibility that the greater part of the US audience for BattleTech would end up electing to always play that faction and demanding directly and indirectly for that faction to receive the lions share of product support. I know that BattleTech took off in Germany and the UK as well as the US, but I'd be surprised if the non-US market was a primary concern back when the game system was first being created.

In the introduction to the fiction anthology "Shrapnel", Jordan Weisman says:

In my view of history, a given political situation grows out of several hundred years of decisions and actions by numerous individuals rather than as a result of a single person's influence or power. Thus, I rely on historical events to inspire the backdrops of my fictional universes. For BattleTech, I felt that the struggle among the five Great Houses of the Inner Sphere and the ideal of restoring the glory of the Star League era were analogous to the fighting among the Roman city-states after the fall of Rome. This analogy helped us flesh out our history because I wanted all the sides in the fight to be shades of gray, as opposed to a conflict between good and evil.

House Kurita is a good example of what I had in mind. Though the enemies of the Draconis Combine may consider them to be bloodthirsty, war-hungry maniacs, the Kuritans have their own history, background, and motivations as well as their own perception of who they are. The same goes for House Davion, whose rulers may show up as knights in shining armor or conniving double-crossers, depending on who you talk to. We try to see that each book is written from the fictional point of view of someone in the 31st century. That means players must always pay attention to who is providing the information and then add the appropriate grain of salt.

That was written back in June 1988. The emphasis on creating a universe where the perception of each culture's "good" or "evil" score is subjective isn't one that sits easily with the idea of having a "Space America" in a game about multiple nation-states where the target audience is the US audience... because a lot of those shades of gray would become Space USA = good; everyone else = evil, or at least inferior and badly wanting to be as awesome as Space USA. I think that since Jordan Weisman wrote that introduction, the BattleTech universe has evolved substantially, and that a lot of the changes are a reflection of how much more international the audience for BattleTech is now than it would have been 25 years ago.

[MadCapellan]

My theory is that FASA created the universe up to appeal to certain international audiences, to wit the Europeans (especially the British and Germans), the Japanese, and the Chinese. 

If they wrote the game to appeal to the Japanese & Chinese, they royally screwed up.  Selling American table-top games in Asia is hard enough without making sure to offend your potential customers by making them the villain & incompetent, respectively, probably the two things both of those cultures fear most. 

[Challenger]

That makes an aweful lot of sense BrokenMnemonic.

I think orginaly it was quite skillfully done.  While influences were obviously there, no faction was so obviously a real world nation that anyone should have realy been thinking "Here we go again with the national sterotypes."  The mixing of racial groups helped I think.

The exception may be the DC, but (IMO) it was always written as a fanboys warped attempt to recreate Fuedal Japan than anything else.

Unfortunately there has been some pandering to sterotypes over the years.  (CC probably gets it worst)

Challenger

[HikageMaru]

If they wrote the game to appeal to the Japanese & Chinese, they royally screwed up.  Selling American table-top games in Asia is hard enough without making sure to offend your potential customers by making them the villain & incompetent, respectively, probably the two things both of those cultures fear most.

See, that memo didn't go to the novelists.

I know that BT was released in Japan.  I have no clue as to how well it did.

[Youngblood]

See, that memo didn't go to the novelists.

I know that BT was released in Japan.  I have no clue as to how well it did.

Despite new original art designs designs done for it by Studio Nue, it flopped.