Author Topic: The Capellans are not evil  (Read 149649 times)

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #270 on: 15 July 2011, 18:10:44 »
But the definition of Capellan citizenry is so fluid that it can be used to justify any action of a state. Invading a planet? Those are citizens that need liberation, even if none are or were citizens.

Not quite.  More point in fact the world requires liberation because it is the joint property of the entirety of the Capellan Confederation misappropriated by our vile neighbors by force of arms.  The inhabitants of those worlds may be potential citizens seeking liberation or worthless foreign layabouts, but the people themselves are only part of the justification for the fight to liberate a world.

Stormlion1

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #271 on: 15 July 2011, 18:14:26 »
What about Chersterton? It was already in Federated Sun hands even before the CapCon was created, wasn't it?
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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #272 on: 15 July 2011, 19:07:01 »
Not quite.  More point in fact the world requires liberation because it is the joint property of the entirety of the Capellan Confederation misappropriated by our vile neighbors by force of arms.  The inhabitants of those worlds may be potential citizens seeking liberation or worthless foreign layabouts, but the people themselves are only part of the justification for the fight to liberate a world.

Weird.  They called it the Clan Invasion when we did it...   ::)

All those worlds we took were just "in the way" on our way to Terra and the Hegemony.  Just like the Servitor in your earlier example. 
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Lore

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #273 on: 15 July 2011, 21:19:49 »
What about Chersterton? It was already in Federated Sun hands even before the CapCon was created, wasn't it?

The Chesterton Trade League formed in 2193.  The Capellan Commonality came together in 2310. The FedSuns occupied Chesterton in 2357. The Capellan Confederation was realised in 2367.
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Nanaki

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #274 on: 15 July 2011, 22:43:43 »
Weird.  They called it the Clan Invasion when we did it...   ::)

All those worlds we took were just "in the way" on our way to Terra and the Hegemony.  Just like the Servitor in your earlier example.

As they say, it is like poop. Yours do not stink and everyone elses' does.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #275 on: 15 July 2011, 23:18:40 »
Okay, but how do you find that ethically and morally undesirable?

Because the state is not the ultimate source of value. A state - in fact, a nation - is simply an agreed upon convention, for the sake of some common good. A nation only exists because there is a consensus to pretend that there is such a thing as a nation; and this consensus is justified by the many practical benefits in having nations, governmental structures, and so on.

To put it rather glibly: nations only exist because large groups of people choose for them to exist, and this choice is made in the context of some other value-structure. For most people, the choice to recognise the existence of nations is made for the simple, practical reason that nations are very useful to have to ensure the welfare of people. The central value is human welfare.

Exactly what one's ultimate object of devotion is obviously varies greatly between people. It can be the state, one's own material welfare, a religious ideal, a secular ideal (like distributive equality, scientific advance, environmental balance, etc.), or anything else. Not all objects are equal in this sense, of course; rather than debate them, I'll just state that there are many. I don't think it is appropriate to try to indoctrinate individuals such that a state - that is, one specific state, a commonly agreed upon fictional entity that derives its value from some external value-structure - becomes the ultimate object of devotion.

And then bearing in mind that convincing people to relate to the state in that way is pragmatically convenient for power-hungry rulers... well, one has to be cynical, doesn't one?

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The criteria are set because the Confederation does not have NEARLY enough resources to give the benefits it does to every human in the Inner Sphere.

A cynic might point out that the average citizen of, say, the Lyran Commonwealth, enjoys greater civil liberties and greater material welfare than the average citizen of the Confederation.

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And the rules aren't as arbitrary as you might think, since there have to have been people in the Confederation who have calculated allocations and tried many distribution plans over the centuries.

Regardless, it remains true that the Confederation government can alter the criteria at whim.

As I understand it, the Confederation has actually done so, in the past, with conquered territories, in order to politically marginalise undesirables.

Quote from: MadCapellan
Mr. M.  Anchovey, I reiterate, "The State is its Citizens..."  The Citizens should NOT be forced by their government to provide for the well-being of all the galaxies slothful, selfish, violent, ignorant masses, many of which who would do them harm.

I don't believe I said anything about what governments should force people to do. I was criticising the Confederation, not expounding on some ideal political system of my own.

Quote from: Caesar Steiner for Archon
If I designated the people who didn't buy in to my fascist ideal of a person's worth being equal to that of their contribution to the State, I could totally preserve all the rights of my people, all the time, and make things awesome for them. Once you designate that some of your people aren't ACTUALLY counted as "your people" then you're just blowing smoke. 

Well said.

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Uhhhhh.  Well...I wouldn't say I'm totally serious, but I do believe that everyone constantly (but often unconsciously) strives to define themselves as one person or another, all their lives.  It's in human nature to be always "on the way".  And I see a lot of that nature in the social ladder (mobility on that ladder, even) in the Confederation.

Certainly people struggle to define themselves; and they define themselves, I would say, in relation to chosen value-centres. The issue I have with the Confederation is that to become a citizen you have to, effectively, choose the Confederation itself as your value-centre; and Capellan education is aimed at making people do this.

I think that taking any state as a value-centre is, in short, completely backwards.

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I think it's also important to bear in mind that the CapCon is the one state which has struggled with survival from the very beginning.

An obvious solution would seem to present itself, then. Just let the Confederation die. ;)

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"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."  -Doctrine of Fascism, 1935

Precisely right. That's the sort of thing I have in mind when I talk about the Confederation trying to present its own state as value-centre.

Quote from: Stormlion1
What about Chersterton? It was already in Federated Sun hands even before the CapCon was created, wasn't it?

It is worth bearing in mind that by this point, the successor states fight each other not because any side really cares about being in the right any more, but because fighting each other is what they do. After centuries, it becomes second nature.

Though I admit that I have marginally more respect for the Lyrans, Suns, and League. The Lyrans in particular give the impression of a state that, if it were possible, would honestly quite like to just stop fighting forever. The League is too multivocal to really talk about well, and as for the Suns, well, looking over the history it does seem that they usually don't strike first, and their major crime, I suppose, is that they have a tendency to win. I don't feel that winning, as a brute fact, is really something a state should have to justify.

(Yes, yes, I know Cavalier has made that argument that historically the Lyrans are the aggressor on the League border. I said it was an impression; it's not an argument.)

Regardless, it bears remembering that none of the states are without blood on their hands, and in any specific situation it depends on the individuals and the actual state of affairs. That said, one can legitimately criticise or defend the institutional structures of each successor state, and the sorts of behaviour they encourage. That is the ground on which I would criticise the Confederation, and on which I am relatively sympathetic to the Commonwealth, Suns, and League.

Minemech

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #276 on: 16 July 2011, 00:30:11 »
Though I admit that I have marginally more respect for the Lyrans, Suns, and League. The Lyrans in particular give the impression of a state that, if it were possible, would honestly quite like to just stop fighting forever. The League is too multivocal to really talk about well, and as for the Suns, well, looking over the history it does seem that they usually don't strike first, and their major crime, I suppose, is that they have a tendency to win. I don't feel that winning, as a brute fact, is really something a state should have to justify.

(Yes, yes, I know Cavalier has made that argument that historically the Lyrans are the aggressor on the League border. I said it was an impression; it's not an argument.)
When all sources state they started every single war up until the Second Succession War, and that was because the Captain-General in office had been tricked by Toyama into thinking there was a massive Lyran invasion fleet next door and if he didn't attack first he would lose I would say Cavalier's argument is firm. If you were the Captain-General at that time and understood that history when getting reading your intelligence, what would you do?

 Philippa was the one who was the first to have the courage to take it back to them, and look the League is back to size after the Third. The Fourth was started by Houses Davion and Steiner, with the League obligated by treaty to attack kicking and screaming. Guerrero was a retaliatory strike for Victor trying to put a plant in the League executive office to make the League his satelite state (Think perspective of the time, not metaknowledge).
« Last Edit: 16 July 2011, 00:36:22 by Minemech »

Gracus

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #277 on: 16 July 2011, 00:34:36 »
It's like Starship Troopers, with an extra helping of WTF!  :D
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #278 on: 16 July 2011, 00:43:20 »
Philippa was the one who was the first to have the courage to take it back to them, and look the League is back to size after the Third. The Fourth was started by Houses Davion and Steiner, with the League obligated by treaty to attack kicking and screaming. Guerrero was a retaliatory strike for Victor trying to put a plant in the League executive office to make the League his satelite state (Think perspective of the time, not metaknowledge).

I'm not getting into a 'my house is better than your house' argument, though it does seem to me that Liao started the Fourth.

Or put it this way:

If you think that Operation Guerrero is morally justified because of the false Joshua, then you must also think the Fourth Succession War was morally justified. Doppelganger was actually more extreme than the false Joshua, since it was part of a plot to take over the other nation, not simply prolong a bargain. If Guerrero is okay; the Fourth War is okay.

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #279 on: 16 July 2011, 01:00:12 »
If you think that Operation Guerrero is morally justified because of the false Joshua, then you must also think the Fourth Succession War was morally justified. Doppelganger was actually more extreme than the false Joshua, since it was part of a plot to take over the other nation, not simply prolong a bargain. If Guerrero is okay; the Fourth War is okay.

Guererro was about Joshua for the Mariks.  For us, it was about getting our planets back.  Doppelganger?  Guess what: it was about getting our planets back.  Offensive against the Suns during the 1st Succession War?  Getting planets back.  Attack on the Republic of the Sphere?  Get planets back.  You'd think people'd discover the pattern, but obviously, some people have a hard time understanding that some people won't ever forgive you for violating their sovereignity.  STAY OFF OUR LAWN!

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #280 on: 16 July 2011, 01:11:11 »
Weird.  They called it the Clan Invasion when we did it...   ::)

Last I checked, none of you guys are Camerons.  You're just a bunch of looneys who followed the dismissed CO of the SLDF off into the interstellar wilderness because he'd rather cry about the fall of the Star League than do something about it.

I don't believe I said anything about what governments should force people to do. I was criticising the Confederation, not expounding on some ideal political system of my own.

You cannot prevent people from providing for the well-being of destructive or selfish individuals without making a distinction as to whom those people are.  The Confederation does so for the betterment of its people.   You're attempting to make a neat dodge, but the reality of the matter is that unless you are willing to make an assessment as to who is and who isn't contributing, you cannot prevent those who do contribute from providing for those who don't.  The Confederation protects the interests of its citizens by refusing to waste their efforts on people who wouldn't do the same for them.  A Capellan Citizen sees a fellow Citizen as a brother or sister, because simply knowing they are a Citizen one knows that they are a person willing to give of themselves for the community.  I fail to see anything immoral about intelligent people self-selecting a community for the betterment of its membership, in which all members are proven to be willing to help one another.

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #281 on: 16 July 2011, 01:31:10 »
Guererro was about Joshua for the Mariks.  For us, it was about getting our planets back.  Doppelganger?  Guess what: it was about getting our planets back.  Offensive against the Suns during the 1st Succession War?  Getting planets back.  Attack on the Republic of the Sphere?  Get planets back.  You'd think people'd discover the pattern, but obviously, some people have a hard time understanding that some people won't ever forgive you for violating their sovereignity.  STAY OFF OUR LAWN!

Ah, yes, and then we're back to six hundred year old grudges, which somehow still have binding force regardless of the intentions or desires of the populations of those worlds.

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You're attempting to make a neat dodge, but the reality of the matter is that unless you are willing to make an assessment as to who is and who isn't contributing, you cannot prevent those who do contribute from providing for those who don't.

Of course.

We can't make assessments of that sort; so the state should provide for everyone. It should provide for those who contribute little just as much as it does for those who contribute much. You may think that is unjust; but it seems to me to be preferable to the alternative.

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I fail to see anything immoral about intelligent people self-selecting a community for the betterment of its membership, in which all members are proven to be willing to help one another.

The community isn't self-selecting. You've got the agency wrong. The agent is the Capellan state.

Lore

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #282 on: 16 July 2011, 01:42:58 »
Regardless, it remains true that the Confederation government can alter the criteria at whim.

I'm curious as to why you've only singled out the Capellan government in this supposed statement.?

By virtue of the fact that all governments are largely criteria-makers, that the Capellan government can alter criteria on a whim isn't that wholly different from the other major political decision-making bodies ruling the Successor States.

Certainly, Katherine's whimsical rule of the Lyran Alliance proved that to be the case.
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #283 on: 16 July 2011, 02:53:29 »
They don't have to try.  They only need to try if they want what the Confederation can give while in their borders.  Some people are okay with living as Servitors.  I actually know one person in real life who fits that description exactly.

In your own words, "you have to do something to prove you'r a person." who is honestly okay with not having basic human rights?


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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #284 on: 16 July 2011, 05:15:04 »
I'm curious as to why you've only singled out the Capellan government in this supposed statement.?

Er, because this topic is about the Confederation?

The Confederation government can alter the citizenship criteria at any time. In fact, the criteria are set up to reward devotion to the state as an abstract ideal.

In theory the other states could alter the citizenship criteria, or the rights they guarantee to defend. Obviously it is in theory possible for the First Prince and the High Council to revoke the Six Liberties, for instance, or decide that they only apply to a restricted segment of the population. The Lyrans and the League are a bit better: I don't think the Archon or Captain-General have the power to alter the Articles of Acceptance or the Document of Incorporation, and they get a little extra credit because the Estates General and Parliament are reasonably representative and are capable of arguing with the ruling house. Nonetheless, even in those states it is true that the Estates General or Parliament could revise their definitions of citizenship or alter the systems of rights that they defend.

Considering that, yes, it is probably a good idea to be cynical when it comes to the governments of those states. One should not trust the government of any successor state.

So why do I advantage those three over the Confederation? Two points.

Firstly, their current criterion for citizenship is reasonably universal and non-arbitrary. You're born in the realm, you grow to be of age, you get it. That means that their system includes everyone, supporters of the state as well as dissenters and troublemakers. So there's a possibility there.

Secondly, their system is not set up in such a way as to attempt to indoctrinate all citizens of the realm in the state ideology and inculcate in them a fanatic loyalty to the state. That said: certainly those states have ideologies, and they are taught. Kids growing up in the FedSuns are going to be taught what the Six Liberties are, why they're awesome, and why this makes the Suns better than the autocracies to either side. But there's a rather important distinction, and that is that in the Suns, as well as in the Commonwealth and the League, basic civil liberties are not contingent on one's ability to demonstrate adherence to the said ideology.

Kojak

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #285 on: 16 July 2011, 06:21:05 »
It seems like, if you really want to boil it down, the Capellans just don't buy into the idea of egalitarianism.


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E. Icaza

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #286 on: 16 July 2011, 07:17:41 »
Last I checked, none of you guys are Camerons.  You're just a bunch of looneys who followed the dismissed CO of the SLDF off into the interstellar wilderness because he'd rather cry about the fall of the Star League than do something about it.

The verdict is still out on that one...coughJenniferWinsoncough...

Much of your argument can be used to justify any act of aggression, just as readily as you are using it to justify the defense and liberation of Capellan territory.  Just sayin'.   ;)
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Lore

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #287 on: 16 July 2011, 08:11:00 »
The Confederation government can alter the citizenship criteria at any time. In fact, the criteria are set up to reward devotion to the state as an abstract ideal.

Or, they can be reworked to ensure the betterment of ALL the Capellan people -- even the disenfranchised among the Servitor caste.

As I noted earlier in this discussion, from pg. 63 -- Handbook: House Liao:-

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Xin Sheng touched every caste of the Confederation, even (or perhaps especially) the massive numbers of servitors. Though Sun-Tzu had abolished the servitors’ near-slavery and enforced a wage for them, Xin Sheng formalized and expanded on those reforms. The rising power of the servitor caste over Capellan society by 3067 was built on the broader rights granted them in 3060. In fact, many sociologists have begun to theorize about the end of the servitor caste’s existence in the next several generations as they more or less breed themselves into the ranks of the Commonality.
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Nanaki

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #288 on: 16 July 2011, 08:55:03 »
Last I checked, none of you guys are Camerons.  You're just a bunch of looneys who followed the dismissed CO of the SLDF off into the interstellar wilderness because he'd rather cry about the fall of the Star League than do something about it.

Which is still a far more solid claim than the Capellan 'Every world in the Inner Sphere is an ancestral Capellan claim, as only the Capellans are the rightful leaders of humanity'...

Looter

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #289 on: 16 July 2011, 09:18:29 »
Which is still a far more solid claim than the Capellan 'Every world in the Inner Sphere is an ancestral Capellan claim, as only the Capellans are the rightful leaders of humanity'...

Was this trolling or did it have an actual point besides trying to irritate people in a rather good discussion?  Just asking.

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #290 on: 16 July 2011, 10:21:58 »
Er, because this topic is about the Confederation?

The Confederation government can alter the citizenship criteria at any time. In fact, the criteria are set up to reward devotion to the state as an abstract ideal.

In theory the other states could alter the citizenship criteria, or the rights they guarantee to defend. Obviously it is in theory possible for the First Prince and the High Council to revoke the Six Liberties, for instance, or decide that they only apply to a restricted segment of the population. The Lyrans and the League are a bit better: I don't think the Archon or Captain-General have the power to alter the Articles of Acceptance or the Document of Incorporation, and they get a little extra credit because the Estates General and Parliament are reasonably representative and are capable of arguing with the ruling house. Nonetheless, even in those states it is true that the Estates General or Parliament could revise their definitions of citizenship or alter the systems of rights that they defend.

Considering that, yes, it is probably a good idea to be cynical when it comes to the governments of those states. One should not trust the government of any successor state.

So why do I advantage those three over the Confederation? Two points.

Firstly, their current criterion for citizenship is reasonably universal and non-arbitrary. You're born in the realm, you grow to be of age, you get it. That means that their system includes everyone, supporters of the state as well as dissenters and troublemakers. So there's a possibility there.

Secondly, their system is not set up in such a way as to attempt to indoctrinate all citizens of the realm in the state ideology and inculcate in them a fanatic loyalty to the state. That said: certainly those states have ideologies, and they are taught. Kids growing up in the FedSuns are going to be taught what the Six Liberties are, why they're awesome, and why this makes the Suns better than the autocracies to either side. But there's a rather important distinction, and that is that in the Suns, as well as in the Commonwealth and the League, basic civil liberties are not contingent on one's ability to demonstrate adherence to the said ideology.

Not only would I second this, but I would point out that by only discussing the CapCon, he is nullifying any irrelevant arguments that depend upon moral relativity with the other Successor States.  We can accept that these polities are comprised of deeply flawed systems without using those flaws to excuse or ignore those found in the CapCon. 
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

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MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #291 on: 16 July 2011, 11:28:30 »
Ah, yes, and then we're back to six hundred year old grudges, which somehow still have binding force regardless of the intentions or desires of the populations of those worlds.

I'd want my property back if it was stolen, regardless of how long it took.

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We can't make assessments of that sort; so the state should provide for everyone. It should provide for those who contribute little just as much as it does for those who contribute much. You may think that is unjust; but it seems to me to be preferable to the alternative.

I thoroughly disagree.  I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks.  It encourages vice and sloth and burdens societies best and brightest with the task of perpetually babysitting an ever-growing population of self-absorbed, arrogant, uncaring human animals with a grand sense of entitlement.  At this point, however, we are really just discussing personal preferense, so there's little more to discuss.

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The community isn't self-selecting. You've got the agency wrong. The agent is the Capellan state.

The community is very much self-selecting.  You choose whether or not to apply for Citizenship.  Those who become Citizens then become part of the body that sets the criteria.

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #292 on: 16 July 2011, 11:31:19 »
It seems like, if you really want to boil it down, the Capellans just don't buy into the idea of egalitarianism.

The Capellan understanding of egalitarianism is that every person born in the Confederation gets the same education and the same chance to become a Citizen.  That does not mean that all people live equal lives any more than it means that every bumb in the Davion outback deserves to be as wealthy as the First Prince.  Whether you choose to earn your Citizenship or not is on you, but it was not your birth that held you back.


Which is still a far more solid claim than the Capellan 'Every world in the Inner Sphere is an ancestral Capellan claim, as only the Capellans are the rightful leaders of humanity'...

No Capellan has ever made that claim, only individuals ignorant of the Confederation and its actual motivations.

jklantern

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #293 on: 16 July 2011, 11:51:32 »
The Capellans, I feel, are the perfect faction for you if you're the sort of person who likes to play the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K.  "FOR THE CHANCELLOR!"  *KABLOOIE*
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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #294 on: 16 July 2011, 12:09:43 »
The Capellans, I feel, are the perfect faction for you if you're the sort of person who likes to play the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K.  "FOR THE CHANCELLOR!"  *KABLOOIE*

I like to play the Guard because of huge numbers of overweight tanks. So I'll stick with the Lyrans :D
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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #295 on: 16 July 2011, 12:17:02 »

I thoroughly disagree.  I think it's disgusting that the state would enable self-serving, lazy, and violent individuals to continue to leech off the productive members of society like ticks.


If servitors were truly as you describe, then it seems allowing them to exist at all has this very result.  Servitor status prevents an individual from holding much value or prestige in society, but it doesn't prevent them from taking up resources from the 'productives'.  As well, we could argue that the lowliest employee at the dirtiest fast food restaurant is supporting the Capellan state in some fashion.  The state just has the power to decide whether that's enough.  Given that the Capellan citizens have no real say in the matter, to say nothing of the servitors, we come back to the major disconnect in your argument.  Service is to the State, and the State defines what service is, but the people who supposedly comprise the state have no say in making that determination.  The citizen is not the State.  The citizen is a servitor with better benefits, a tribal (good description here) allegiance to this concept of State, and a xenophobic relationship with everyone who is not.  It's class warfare.
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Kos

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #296 on: 16 July 2011, 12:30:42 »
I thought that the entire neo-samurai thing was freely professed to be an engineered cultural phenomenon, much like all of the neo-Chinese, neo-German stuff going on in the other empires. 

Hell, even under Takashi, a particularly intolerant SOB, you still had a non-Japanese like Vasiliy Cherenkoff in charge of the entire Dieron district. 

Grieg Samsonov (not Japanese, to my knowledge) was the Warlord of Galedon District.

Yeah, Daniel Sorenson or the guy in the Kurita fiction from TW are other examples of non-Japanese bushi.  I've always played the Danish samurai mechwarrior myself.  Being samurai is about being constantly trained and prepared for war with bonsai and origami on the side to help him/her appreciate peace, a real bushi probably wouldn't be too concerned about racial politics in the Combine (try telling that to the ISF though...).  That's how I played my Mechwarrior character at least; he spends all his downtime on the training grounds and his orchards (developing new strains of fruit trees for the Dragon), very non-political.     

jklantern

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #297 on: 16 July 2011, 12:36:36 »
I like to play the Guard because of huge numbers of overweight tanks. So I'll stick with the Lyrans :D

In the little bit that I dabbled in 40K, my friends who played Guard tended to focus more on the blatant disposable nature of the foot soldiers, so I tend to forget about the tanks.

Of course, I was the token Greenie Fanatic, so what's that really say about me, eh?  WAAAAAAAGH!
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Minemech

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #298 on: 16 July 2011, 13:26:07 »
I'm not getting into a 'my house is better than your house' argument

I promise you that was not the argument type. It is an argument that strictly is out to break the myth the Lyrans spread that they are a bunch of people who think the universe is made only of love and peace and only fight for self defense. The reason they attack the League is because it has what they want, heavy industry, the Combine is nothing in comparison in that regard.

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #299 on: 16 July 2011, 13:27:35 »
If servitors were truly as you describe, then it seems allowing them to exist at all has this very result.

Not really.  They're left to fend for themselves until they decide to contribute.  A pretty reasonable course of action, I'd say.


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Servitor status prevents an individual from holding much value or prestige in society, but it doesn't prevent them from taking up resources from the 'productives'.

Sure it does.  Servitors cannot own property and effectively have no rights.  Anything a Servitor has in his or her possession may be appropriated by a Citizen at any time just like something found lying on the sidewalk.

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Given that the Capellan citizens have no real say in the matter, to say nothing of the servitors, we come back to the major disconnect in your argument.  Service is to the State, and the State defines what service is, but the people who supposedly comprise the state have no say in making that determination.

The people are the State.  Who are the millions of civil servants and bureaucrats of the Confederation, the ones who make the determination as to who becomes a Citizen, if not Citizens themselves?  They all had to go through the same process and experience the same things.  It's not as if His Celestial Wisdom has the time to make a personal assessment on the part of each and every individual as to whether or not they get Citizenship.  That is performed by the regional heads of the local castes.

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The citizen is not the State.  The citizen is a servitor with better benefits, a tribal (good description here) allegiance to this concept of State, and a xenophobic relationship with everyone who is not.  It's class warfare.

The Citizen is very much the State, just as the State is the Citizen.  They are inseparable.  To insist otherwise is to admit ignorance of the Confederation.

 

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