Author Topic: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion  (Read 108515 times)

SCC

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The first two dice rolls generate either +1 or -1, meaning that you have a 50% chance of getting a modifier of 0 and 25% each of -2 or +2 which you then multiply by a 2d6 roll

Acolyte

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The first two dice rolls generate either +1 or -1, meaning that you have a 50% chance of getting a modifier of 0 and 25% each of -2 or +2 which you then multiply by a 2d6 roll

That'd be a good way to do it, but that's not what Cray's example above states.

The idea is to figure out if you have cash in the bank (positive balance) or if you're carrying debt (negative balance). So, there's two rolls.

The first is a 1d6 roll to give a random positive or negative result. An odd 1d6 roll (1, 3, or 5) means you're negative. An even roll (2, 4, or 6) means you're positive.

The second roll (2d6) is determine the size of your debt or credit in terms of monthly peacetime operating costs.

Example: Hanse doesn't like random starting budgets and decides to build a giant government force of about 100 'Mech regiments, 300 tank regiments, 500 infantry regiments, and scores of DropShips and JumpShips, calling it "the 3025 AFFS." While it's fun to build the force of your dreams, you might still end up in debt. Per the flexible force construction rules, Hanse first rolls 1d6 to see if his 3025 AFFS force is in debt or has a credit. He rolls a 3: an odd numbered result that means he's in debt. He then rolls 2d6 to see how big that balance is (in terms of the 3025 AFFS's peacetime monthly operating costs): an 11. Well, shit. Hanse's dream force, which he hopes to use to crush the Capellan Confederation, is running in the red to the tune of 11 months of peacetime operating costs. Hanse will probably have to marry some rich banker's daughter or something to keep this munchy "3025 AFFS" force running.

Does that make sense? How would you recommend rewording the debt/credit balance in flexible force construction if it isn't sensible?

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wellspring

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As I'm playing with the rules more and more, I'm noticing that a lot of the bulk in admin is actually coming from the fact that so many asTechs are in the unit. By making asTechs dedicated personnel rather than the shared, semiskilled resources that they were in Strat Ops, you're ending up with tons of support staff in a unit that gets further bulked up by the admin requirement.

So let's look at a 12 mech company. Under IO, that's 106 people:

  • 12 Mechwarriors
  • 12 Techs
  • 72 asTechs
  • 10 Administrators

Making the asTechs a shared resource, as I suggested earlier and which as I read Strat Ops is how it has worked up to now, you get 40 people:

  • 12 Mechwarriors
  • 12 Techs
  • 12 asTechs (two groups of six, each of which performs maintenance on 6 mechs per week with one day off... These two teams can use the overtime rules to do 20 maintenance/repair cycles per week, useful for post-combat repairs, but one team isn't quite enough to do routine maintenance on 12 mechs. You could still choose to have extra assistants, up to a maximum of one team per tech as in IO Beta.)
  • 4 administrators

That seems more reasonable for a small company. One team of asTechs can support a Star, Lance, or Level I. Fewer mechs means the team works fewer hours, but they're still on payroll. More, and you start enjoying economies of scale. Up to a point.

It fits with canon, too. A Union dropship holds a company of mechs... but if they have the personnel footprint of IO, the ship goes from cramped to ridiculous. With asTechs as a shared resource, it's tight but conceivable (and the Union is known to be an uncomfortably tight fit).

(Also, something else: Strat Ops posits an unassigned tech for every four assigned techs. So really we multiply everything except the Mechwarriors by 1.25. That applies to both cases, so it shouldn't change our conclusions. IO doesn't address this assumption at all.)

wellspring

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Cray, thanks for the detailed response (it popped up after I posted).

Are you getting any value out of the Admin (or asTechs) discussion?

Daryk

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Cray, I think I found the differentiation between Techs and AsTechs.  On page 335 of AToW, the salary table explicitly places AsTech average field skill level at 1+, Green Techs at 2+, Regular Techs at 3+, etc.   Without any specific rounding guidance on page 335, it would seem that you have to get to at least a 0.5 average to round up to 1.  With the skill overlap between the various technician fields, even a Green Tech can function as an Astech for any other kind of Tech. It's harder to get there from the combatant fields, though, as they generally only have one "Technician/Any" skill in their fields, so your estimate of 25% being able to function as Astechs is probably good.

Minerva

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192 rounds per tank, or about 10 tons per year, versus an ammo capacity of about 1 ton per tank?

192 rounds are fired per tank crew which means essentially 1 tank in your mind. They weight about 50 kg * 200 = 10 tons. Ammo capacity of tank is about 40 rounds or 2 tons. So each USMC tank fires five times its ammo capacity per year. As a comparison in the early 1970's US Army used 180 rounds per year per tank in Europe (about 3 reloads of M60 then in use).

There are two ways to deal with this in game:
Easy way is to say that you fire some arbitrary figure of Mech's ammo capacity per year (and also mention that you shoot countless times with simulated munitions etc). Reasonable number would be 15 per year (average of AC/10 and AC/20). The problem with this is that it is really silly for AC/2, LRM20 ammo use.

Alternative and more accurate way is to say that you fire about 200 shots per year (round to nearest ton) and then calculate it for each weapon system separately (perhaps as optional rule). So AC/10 uses 20 tons, AC/5 uses 10 tons etc.


wellspring

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192 rounds are fired per tank crew which means essentially 1 tank in your mind. They weight about 50 kg * 200 = 10 tons. Ammo capacity of tank is about 40 rounds or 2 tons. So each USMC tank fires five times its ammo capacity per year. As a comparison in the early 1970's US Army used 180 rounds per year per tank in Europe (about 3 reloads of M60 then in use).

There are two ways to deal with this in game:
Easy way is to say that you fire some arbitrary figure of Mech's ammo capacity per year (and also mention that you shoot countless times with simulated munitions etc). Reasonable number would be 15 per year (average of AC/10 and AC/20). The problem with this is that it is really silly for AC/2, LRM20 ammo use.

Alternative and more accurate way is to say that you fire about 200 shots per year (round to nearest ton) and then calculate it for each weapon system separately (perhaps as optional rule). So AC/10 uses 20 tons, AC/5 uses 10 tons etc.

Isn't this explicitly dealt with under "consumables" on page 12? Every unit consumes 25% of its ammo capacity per month. Which comes out to 3 times its ammo capacity per year, very close to the figures you use for the US military.

Incidentally, the way the in-text example with the Archer is phrased is a bit confusing. The math works out, but it would be better to phrase it something like this:

Quote
For example, a player with an ARC-2R Archer in a 3067-era force may select the Archer to carry two tons of Thunder LRMs and two tons of semi-guided LRMs. After making the decision, the controlling player must decide on the monthly usage of ammunition. The peacetime consumption is one quarter of the vehicle’s or infantry force’s ammunition capacity to maintain the skills of the force, so the Archer uses half a ton of each type of ammunition per month. However, if usage varies due to combat or accelerated training, the actual consumption must be noted. (emphasis mine)

It bears mentioning that this is baseline peacetime expenditure. The Clans probably burn through ammo much more quickly, in part because they train harder, but mostly because they have a preference for live-fire exercises and their culture makes heavy use of live-fire Trials. Happily, the rules already leave the door open for this.

Minerva

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Isn't this explicitly dealt with under "consumables" on page 12? Every unit consumes 25% of its ammo capacity per month. Which comes out to 3 times its ammo capacity per year, very close to the figures you use for the US military.

No the rules do that but rather badly thanks to what seems to be abysmal background research.. The baseline for realism is about 200 shots per year not number of reloads because amount of shots in each reload in tanks is far more than with BattleMechs. So when you have AC/5 you use 10 tons a year, and with AC/10 you use 20 tons a year and with AC/20 you use 40 tons a year... This has a neat side effect of making expensive systems like Gauss cannons even more expensive...

It bears mentioning that this is baseline peacetime expenditure. The Clans probably burn through ammo much more quickly, in part because they train harder, but mostly because they have a preference for live-fire exercises and their culture makes heavy use of live-fire Trials. Happily, the rules already leave the door open for this.

Well, if you actually use live ammo all the time the ammo expenditure would be tremendous. For fun I calculated that you would use something like: 92 + 92 rounds (mentioned before) plus all the sub-caliber munitions ( 260 rounds). Notice that during maneuvering at higher level that would add 175 more for ... 92+92+260+175 = 619 rounds per tank per year.
So Elite level training is 3 times as munition consuming as normal training. However, in real life shooting that many rounds per year would lead army to have to put every single Mech through a depot maintenance every year.

idea weenie

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No the rules do that but rather badly thanks to what seems to be abysmal background research.. The baseline for realism is about 200 shots per year not number of reloads because amount of shots in each reload in tanks is far more than with BattleMechs. So when you have AC/5 you use 10 tons a year, and with AC/10 you use 20 tons a year and with AC/20 you use 40 tons a year... This has a neat side effect of making expensive systems like Gauss cannons even more expensive...

Note to self, recover used Gauss ammo and re-melt to get the proper shape/characteristics.  Then again, each Gauss Rifle shot is only 2500 C-Bills.

But it is another reason to use energy weapons, since the only 'ammo' used is fuel.

Davout73

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But it is another reason to use energy weapons, since the only 'ammo' used is fuel.

Well, there are parts of a laser you have to stay on top of...
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Archameades

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #100 on: 03 December 2012, 11:37:37 »
Quote
My original draft sort of did this, but I ran into problems with combined arms units. Those numbers you're providing are fine for 3025-era 'Mech forces, but this is an all-era, all-unit set of rules. 40 million is great for a lance of Atlases, but what's it mean for a force of infantry, tanks, 'Mechs, and aerospace fighters?

Perhaps a final modifier for primary unit type. 

'Mech X 1.0
Combined Arms X 0.75
Armour X 0.5
Infantry X 0.25

Quote
The rules already address combatant personnel pulling double duty as technical and administrative personnel. What did you want different than those rules?

Sorry if my example wasn't clear, I was proposing keeping combatant personnel as they are, but adding the ability for technical support and administrative personnel to double shift into each others specialties.  I would like to note, however, that I am happy with the administration requirement numbers as well as the way the rules are stated currently, this is just a suggestion for those that disagree.

I love your debt example, and fully agree that it must be in the final version!

Quote
Does that make sense? How would you recommend rewording the debt/credit balance in flexible force construction if it isn't sensible?

Currently the instructions are:
Quote
Second, starting cash is not unlimited. Roll 1D6 twice. If the result is an odd number, treat it as -1. If the result is even, treat it as 1. Multiply that by 2D6 and then by the force’s peacetime monthly operating costs. The final number is the current amount of money in the bank (or debt) the force possesses.

You example has only one D6 roll for the first step; the rules, as written, state two.  I would propose the following:

If only one D6 is needed for the first step:
Quote
Second, starting cash is not unlimited.  Roll 1D6. If the result is an odd number, treat it as -1. If the result is even, treat it as 1. Multiply that by 2D6 and then by the force’s peacetime monthly operating costs. The final number is the current amount of money in the bank (or debt) the force possesses.

If the intent was to roll two D6 individually for the first step and add them together:
Quote
Second, starting cash is not unlimited.  Roll 2D6. If the result is an odd number, treat it as -1. If the result is even, treat it as 1. Multiply that by 2D6 and then by the force’s peacetime monthly operating costs. The final number is the current amount of money in the bank (or debt) the force possesses.





Minerva

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #101 on: 03 December 2012, 15:20:17 »
I took a look at the rules (and tried to create some units to support my ongoing campaign) and pondered the logic behind them. My real problem is that the rules do not do what they should do.

Unit creation rules should serve for two purposes. First to create player's own unit that is often mixed mercenary force but can also be a part of large fixed house unit. Second to allow creation of allied and enemy forces that often fall to "standard unit types" that serve as basis for campaign. As such certain semi-randomness is acceptable but force creation must be able to support campaigning.

The base scenario for any unit creation rules worth their salt is that you can create reasonably easily following "stock units":
1) Green Capellan infantry Battalion
2) Veteran Marik Vehicle Battalion
3) Regular Steiner Assault Mech Regiment
4) Veteran mercenary Battalion of mixed forces (this should also work for bandits as well)
5) Elite Clan Jade Falcon Cluster

Solution: Set basic unit types (Mech, tank, infantry etc) with base unit sizes for cash levels and then use 2D6 to deviate forces from standard norm. There have been suggestions to this effect in this thread that should be given a look for supporting such thing. Seek also ways to tie various unit related rules of Strategic Operations to these rules alongside ways to build fixed to&E units.

The alternative rules for unit creation is essentially CYA clause. It is a waste of space and should be cut off.

Ultimately rules also fail in the sense that the end result has complete lack of military organization. Currently rules spit out a pile of individual assets. There are no rules&suggestions on how to tie up everything to a real regiment. Additionally the pay costs tied to ranks make no sense when unit creation rules does not actually create ranks to employ them. This problem is closely tied up with whole administrator fiasco.

Solution: Set Command units that must be bought for units of certain type numbers. For example you need to buy one command unit (infantry platoon) for every infantry battalion you field. Add also nominal CO rank for each of these posts. Remember that command assets are both larger and more expensive per man as unit goes bigger.

wellspring

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #102 on: 03 December 2012, 16:41:05 »
Just to back up Minerva, I agree that the main rules should be about how to create your own favorite custom unit for RPG and campaign use, with an optional rule for how to do it randomly (for GMs creating opfors). The former is far more likely to be the typical case than the latter, and I suspect it will make the section flow better as well.

Also, I love the Hanse Davion example.

Kronos_Riker

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #103 on: 03 December 2012, 19:30:18 »
Oh yes, Love the Hanse Davion example. You MUST put that in if there is room to do so. :)

Wow, That's a name I haven't seen in a while.

Daryk

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #104 on: 03 December 2012, 19:57:11 »
Cray, I haven't seen your Force Operations rules yet, but do you intend to go to a skill level-hour system for maintenance?  By this I mean extrapolating from the Strategic Operations maintenance rules and A Time of War salary table as follows:

A medium mech requires 60 minutes of maintenace per cycle (which Acolyte has already helpfully asked for clarification about).  Assuming this requirement is based on a "Regular" tech team of a Regular Tech (average skill level 3) and 6 Astechs (average skill level 1), that means (3x1)+(1x6) = 9 skill level-hours to accomplish the maintenance.

This model would let you fine tune your tech teams to get the most maintenance out of the fewest bodies in a fairly easy way.

silverback

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #105 on: 03 December 2012, 20:23:54 »
One issue I have not seen addressed (and it makes the Tech/Astech numbers worse), is the support for support vehicles.  The throwaway comment about looking for some inexpensive jeeps is a trigger.
My house rule for such things is that one tech team (yes, 7 guys/gals) can maintain about 6 skimmer class vehicles, 4 jeeps, 3 light trucks (20 tons or less), 2 medium trucks (21-50 tons), or 1 heavy truck.  I lump units designed as combat vehicles but with a primary function in support (example: a lift) in this group.

Has any rule set dealt with this issue, and I have not seen it?

cray

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #106 on: 04 December 2012, 22:34:26 »
Hold on! It says "Roll 1d6 twice". This is probably the confusion, as you should only be rolling it once to get plus/minus, then rolling 2d6 for months.

Ah, I see. I'll get that straightened out.

Are you getting any value out of the Admin (or asTechs) discussion?

Yes, I am.

Solution: Set basic unit types (Mech, tank, infantry etc) with base unit sizes for cash levels and then use 2D6 to deviate forces from standard norm.

That sounds quite a bit like my first draft of the force construction rules, and was my preferred approach because - if it worked - it would give nice control over force size and composition. However, I realized my end result was just an overly-complicated, annoying way of "building whatever you want." I wouldn't mind going back to it if ya'll can fix the problems I ran into:

My first system was intended to allow construction of forces of any size, any unit composition, and any era. To do this, the player would first select a force size and select the desired numbers of various unit types (how many 'Mech lances, fighter points, infantry platoons, DropShips, etc.)

Next, the force would get budgets for unit purchase based on the type of sub-forces. 'Mech lances were given X C-bills per lance, infantry platoons got Y C-bills per platoon, etc. While not a critical element of my rules, I added that to avoid deviating from the initial force size, money had to stay in separate "pots" - 'Mech funds couldn't be spent on fighter funds, for example.

The system got further complicated when you started factoring in unit technology and weight. A budget adequate for a 3070-era assault 'Mech lance would be over-sized for a 3025-era light 'Mech lance, so adjusting for technology and sub-force weight required further rules to set sub-force budgets based on whether your wanted them to be light, medium, etc., and what level of technology they'd have.

Fine. You get nice, neat budgets that scale with the force size and composition and many other things. What was the problem?

The core problem of the whole system was that there were no ultimate checks and balances to limit a player to a particular force size, just a bunch of rules that would only slow and irritate the player. Consider this example:

Bob wants to make a Lyran 9-lance 'Mech battalion. So he looks up the budget for 'Mech lances. In my abandoned system, the budget per lance would depend on desired lance weight and technology. In your suggestion - correct me if I'm wrong - there'd be some 2d6 rolls (per lance?) to give some variation to the budget. Either way, Bob takes that final budget per lance, totals it up for 9 lances, and sets out buying 'Mechs.

Part way through the unit purchases, Bob realizes he's running short of cash. He really wanted that command company of Atlases but after buying those he only had money for two companies of low-end medium 'Mechs and lights. That's not a proper Lyran unit, which should at least also have a company of Zeuses and nothing under 50 tons in the scout company.

But, oh, wait a second. Bob realizes that if he's not getting enough money per lance, he can just get extra lances of 'Mechs and not fill them out. Or he can use an entire lance's budget on 1 'Mech. (If he had a gamemaster this might not fly but Bob, like many BT players, doesn't have a GM for his boardgame-intensive campaign. And asking for approval from the other players in his campaign is a sure thing, since they're hoping to play with that force, too.) So Bob revises his budget to cover 15 lances and buys 9 lances of the 'Mechs he wants. He then ignores the 2 empty companies on his TO&E sheet.


The problem stemmed from "pick whatever size you want." When you "Set basic unit types (Mech, tank, infantry etc) with base unit sizes for cash levels and then use 2D6 to deviate forces from standard norm," a player can readily throw budget limits to the wind by changing the size of force. Further, unlike character attributes or unit record sheets (both of which have lots of stats to double-check the math behind a character's or unit's build and consistent restriction), there wasn't a convenient way of checking to see if a military force built with "any size you want" rules was correct. I mean, another player might wonder how Bob managed to build (for example) 100 million CB lances when the biggest lance budget was (for sake of discussion) 40 million CB, but what are they going to do if Bob says he just consolidated budgets for several lances and sold off some junk 'Mechs?

You could add restrictions like "must buy 4 'Mechs per lance" (so players can't try the "1 super 'Mech per lance" trick), and "cannot share budgets between lances," "must be of the designated lance weight class" and "must be of the appropriate technology," but do you think such rules would later prevent a player from shuffling his TO&E to consolidate his favorite designs and isolate the cheap filler units? Let alone invoking unit purchase and sales rules after the start of a campaign to get rid of trash units in favor of smaller numbers of dream team units?

So, when I stepped back and looked at my "any size force" set of rules, I realized it was basically an overly complicated, irritating means of letting players build whatever they want without any real budgetary restriction (despite lots of rules and tables on budgets). The fix for that went in two directions: first, random, limited budgets are the basic force generation system you see in this .pdf draft. Second was a much more honest, compact optional rule that said, "Yeah, build whatever you want" rather than wasting all that word count on easily-bypassed budget restrictions.

Now, Minerva (and anyone else), if you can craft some rules that both allow the construction of a force of any size, technology, and era while making budgets relevant and without the problems I listed above, then I'm all ears.

Providing rules for building OpFors of a set size is something I CAN do relatively easily, since the players building it are probably not inclined to play funny games with the accounting of their NPC opponents. A table with some recommended budgets by unit type should address the issue.
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monbvol

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #107 on: 04 December 2012, 23:33:21 »
Frankly cray by the time a player puts that much effort into gaming the rules it doesn't matter what the rules say because they are just going to build what they want anyway.

I know I for one would certainly prefer something far closer to your first draft as it frankly looks more useful to me as 90+% of the time I know what size of force I'm looking to create but have no idea of particular composition I would like and the current set of rules are frankly rather unhelpful for that.

Acolyte

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #108 on: 04 December 2012, 23:54:38 »
I like the rules as is.

I think it's far easier for a GM to say "you rolled a 6, make your unit with that" no matter that no roll has actually been made. What might be helpful is some very rough budget guidelines for if you want to create a Lance/company/etc. Maybe just a footnote on the table saying "this is good for a lance" or something. The GM or gaming group can adjust according to their own tastes.

In terms of your initial draft, if you wish to go back to it, how about not having a budget at all. Player picks each unit and rolls to see if it's available, as is done in the current system. At the end of things, give a random amount of starting cash based on the operating expenses (which can be negative if you want to add that rule).

Just a thought, but like I said, I like the current rules.

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SCC

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #109 on: 05 December 2012, 01:13:50 »
Cray, remember that discussion we had about getting SL gear post-Helm? Figured out how to fix it, a unit gets a modifier to Availability TN based on it's actual Availability rating, something like
+5 for Rating F (Unique), or maybe even an automatic TN 12 with no modifier for green pilot
+3 for Rating E

Special munitions would also modify the units Availability TN, or if acquired separately and fixed Availability TN of their own

That's actually a thought, a units or piece of equipment Availability TN is based on it's Availability Rating, modified, if appropriate, by unit type, weight class, etc, so that people can look at the Availability Rating and figure out how hard it is to acquire

Davout73

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #110 on: 05 December 2012, 01:34:50 »
Why not get the MUL excel file from XOTL, then use it to figure out the average cost of each unit type per era. 

Then pick one era, say 3025, and use that as the baseline.  Then compare the 3025 costs to the other era costs, and that will give a modifier.  If the average cost of all mechs in 3025 is 5 million, and it's 7.5 million in 3055, then your modifer is 1.5...and so on.

Now, create a table using the baseline as the core. And make that table relevant to a size.  I'd say use a company.

So, if the average cost of a mech in the 3025 era is 5 million, 5 X 12 is 60 million, that becomes your median. And then adjust off that.
So a 2d6 table would look like:

2d6
2 - 25M
3 - 35M
4 - 45M
5 - 50M
6 - 55M
7 - 60M
8 - 65M
9 - 70M
10 - 75M
11 - 80M
12 - 100M


Now, lets say that the average cost of an ASF in 3025 is 3 million.   Compared to a mech, that's .6, so if I wanted to build a company of mechs and a company of aerospace fighters, roll 2d6, and modify.  I roll a 7, I have 60M +(60M*.6=36M) for a total of 96 million.
Now, should I keep those totals discrete?  Player option.  96M won't get me 12 Atlas's.  It could get me 12 locusts, 12 Thunderbird ASF's, and I'll have about 3 million left over for everything else?  Then my GM would have me assaulting a defensive line in a rainstorm with low lying clouds....so....

The potential is there to go as detailed with the numbers as you want.  Want a 3025 Kurita Light Lance?  Roll 2d6, add house and mech weight modifers...and so on.  After 3049, you would have to have a separate baseline chart for the clans, but the structure would be the same.

Hope that makes sense,

Dav
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Jackmc

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #111 on: 05 December 2012, 02:51:38 »
I'd really like to see an optional rule that would allow you to sustitue techs for astechs on a tech team at a 1:2 ratio so that 4 techs could function as a full tech team.  I've wanted this for a while, but feel it's doubly imporant for merc units now that randomness has been added back to both unit and transport capability generation. 

-Jackmc   


cray

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #112 on: 05 December 2012, 09:49:01 »
Now, create a table using the baseline as the core. And make that table relevant to a size.  I'd say use a company.

Alright, let's make the baseline budget assigned per company and I'll use that to point out the problem I raised in my last post:

Quote
Now, lets say that the average cost of an ASF in 3025 is 3 million.   Compared to a mech, that's .6, so if I wanted to build a company of mechs and a company of aerospace fighters, roll 2d6, and modify.  I roll a 7, I have 60M +(60M*.6=36M) for a total of 96 million.
Now, should I keep those totals discrete?  Player option.  96M won't get me 12 Atlas's. 

Example: Bob's at it again. He wants a 3025 Lyran battalion (3 companies). For the era, he gets 96 million CB for a company. This allows him to buy 9 Atlases for the scout company (3025 Atlases cost about 10 million CB), which isn't the 12 Atlases he wants. He's also frustrated to see he can only get 9 Atlases in each the fire support and command companies.

Bob realizes that if he adds a 4th company to the battalion, he can get 9 more Atlases, for a total of 36. He then rearranges his TO&E to consolidate the 4 partial companies into 3 companies of 12 Atlases each. Ta-da! Bob has his all-Atlas Lyran scout force.


If your first response is, "Well, maybe 96 million CB per company was a little high," consider substituting in some other values for the per-company (or per-lance, or per-star) budget. What if Bob only had 10 million CB per company to work with? Then he just builds a giant 4-regiment force of 36 companies with 1 Atlas each and consolidates them into 1 battalion.

So the question becomes, "Why bother with budget calculations when you can build whatever you want just by adding extra companies/lances/stars/etc.?"

Or did you want to restrict every player to company-sized forces? Because if you put strict limits on the largest size of force the rules can build this problem evaporates (and you get the new one that different players want to build different sizes of forces).
« Last Edit: 05 December 2012, 09:53:15 by cray »
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

cray

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #113 on: 05 December 2012, 09:58:42 »
Maybe just a footnote on the table saying "this is good for a lance" or something. The GM or gaming group can adjust according to their own tastes.

I'm now planning on doing something like that so players know reasonable budgets for opposing forces, per Minerva's request to build "stock units."

Quote
In terms of your initial draft, if you wish to go back to it, how about not having a budget at all. Player picks each unit and rolls to see if it's available, as is done in the current system. At the end of things, give a random amount of starting cash based on the operating expenses (which can be negative if you want to add that rule).

That's easy enough to add to the Flexible Force Construction Rules.

Though I'm looking forward to seeing if anyone can fix the bugs in the baseline idea. I'd really like to assign budgets in modular increments so you can make sensible forces of any size.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Davout73

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #114 on: 05 December 2012, 10:50:03 »
Alright, let's make the baseline budget assigned per company and I'll use that to point out the problem I raised in my last post:

Example: Bob's at it again....
So the question becomes, "Why bother with budget calculations when you can build whatever you want just by adding extra companies/lances/stars/etc.?"
Or did you want to restrict every player to company-sized forces? Because if you put strict limits on the largest size of force the rules can build this problem evaporates (and you get the new one that different players want to build different sizes of forces).

Questions:

1. Are you writing these rules for players just like Bob?  Because IMO Bobs the exception, not the rule.
2. Are you writing these rules in such a way to try and discourage bob from doing what he's doing?

If the answer is 1, then there's no problem
If the answer is 2, well, here's what I know:  The US Tax code, at a conservative estimate, is 70K words, and people find ways to cheat that every year.  Trying to write these rules in such a way to prevent Bob from doing what he is doing is easy:  You place limits on what a player can do with the money.  How broad or specific those limits are are up to you.

In your case, Bob's games the rules to create a regiment consisting of 36 mechs.  As the GM, it would be my responsibility to say "Where are the other 72 mechs in your unit?", and if he comes up with a plausible story, "Uh, combat losses, yeah, that's it"  I turn around and say "OK, your fighting in the Ping Pong swamps.  It's 4 maps of flat terrain with a swamp in every other hex.  By the way, your OpFor is using 12 Locusts, has 12 Thunderbird ASF's, and ground/aero rules are in effect."  :-)

Or you say "It says here in the rules that these numbers are built on a company sized unit, you built your unit based on regimental numbers, as the GM I expect you to have close to 72 or so mechs, and where are the ASF's you used this money for?  Back to the drawing board Bob."

In the end, put a line in that says something to the effect of "These numbers are based on the standard 12 mech unit company.  Using the modifier to create a Battalion (36 mechs) or regiment (108 mechs) means you should have a final unit close to those sizes.  If you do not, you are cheating the rules, and if that's the case, why are you using this book?"

Now, if I'm building a 3035 Capellan Battalion that's been beaten in the 4th Succession War and the Anduriens are coming, maybe I only have 32 mechs instead of 36.  Or a regiment that around 80 mechs dues to battlefield losses.  Or maybe I have a battalion of 40 mechs, which is 3 comapnies and a battalion HQ Lance.  Provide guidelines.  Do you want to go as far as saying "The average Assault Mech regiment is 50% Assault Mechs, 20% Heavy mechs, 10% medium and light mechs." 

Honestly, IMO unless you put restrictions on what a player can do, the one table fits all concept isn't going to work. 

Sorry for the rambling,

Dav
Kiiro no Torii, a Battletech AU, found here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,7316.0.html
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Davout73

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #115 on: 05 December 2012, 10:58:52 »
Though I'm looking forward to seeing if anyone can fix the bugs in the baseline idea. I'd really like to assign budgets in modular increments so you can make sensible forces of any size.

Then it's a table with modifiers.  The time suck is going to be figuring out what the modifiers are for the various era if your using one table, or coming up with era specific, and maybe faction specific tables. 

Dav
Kiiro no Torii, a Battletech AU, found here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,7316.0.html
Interview with a Mercenary, found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,319.0.html
Every Man Must Be Tempted, a KNT Universe series: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/every-man-must-be-tempted
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cray

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #116 on: 05 December 2012, 11:31:56 »
Questions:

1. Are you writing these rules for players just like Bob?  Because IMO Bobs the exception, not the rule.

10 years of writing BT has taught me that you have to address players like Bob or you get angry lynchmobs on the internet demanding to know why you left such glaring loopholes in the rules. Most of the lynchmobs will be made of non-Bobs who cannot be convinced to invoke simple rules like, "Get GM approval." It happened over and over with BT's nuke rules:

Players: "Why, oh great TPTB, did you allow such horrific, unbalancing weapons into the game?"
Writers: "Well, we said, 'Get the approval of everyone in your group before you pop nukes.' Why are you blaming us for your group's decision to use nukes?"
Players: "Lots of people in our group wanted to use nukes and we couldn't make them unhappy by vetoing them. So why did you even give rules for them in the first place?"

Saying something like "Needs GM approval" in a game that often lacks GMs, or "Needs approval of other players in the group" when too many players are unwilling to be buzz-kills to their fellow players is not an effective means of regulation.

At that point, why are you bothering with budgets, since the player can scale the force to whatever they want?

Quote
In your case, Bob's games the rules to create a regiment consisting of 36 mechs.  As the GM, it would be my responsibility to say "Where are the other 72 mechs in your unit?"

1) Not all BT games gave GMs.
2) So what if there's no back story to explain the budget? You're handing out a blank check anyway.

Quote
Or you say "It says here in the rules that these numbers are built on a company sized unit, you built your unit based on regimental numbers, as the GM I expect you to have close to 72 or so mechs, and where are the ASF's you used this money for?  Back to the drawing board Bob."

What do you do for the common games that lack GMs?

Quote
In the end, put a line in that says something to the effect of "These numbers are based on the standard 12 mech unit company.  Using the modifier to create a Battalion (36 mechs) or regiment (108 mechs) means you should have a final unit close to those sizes.  If you do not, you are cheating the rules, and if that's the case, why are you using this book?"

That's not a fix for a couple of reasons. First, the wide variety of force organization structures (Clan, Inner Sphere generic, ComStar/WoB, etc.) means the player is likely to need to shuffle the units in their forces after the simpler guidelines of force creation limit their budgets. Second, you're robbing the player of flexibility. What makes the company the ideal force to you isn't an ideal force for others.

Consider the problem of writing rules for units of different weights. A typical 3025-era 'Mech battalion will mix 'Mechs of differing weights into a single lance. A scout lance might include medium and light units. An assault lance might include heavy and assault units. Every player has differing ideas on what constitutes command, fire, scout, assault, and other lance types.

The "simple" fix is to give finer control over budgets by avoiding company- (or trinary, or level II) budgets and getting down to a smaller level, like lances.

But then you're getting down to the point of - again - allowing a player to pick and chose the budgets in such a way as to get whatever they want. You could, after all, just make a force out of lots of assault-weight units and fill them in as desired.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

monbvol

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #117 on: 05 December 2012, 12:00:36 »
I'll repeat myself a bit cray.  By the time anyone has put that much effort into gaming the system it doesn't matter what the book says.  They are just going to do what they want anyway.

Plus A Time of War has a very hands off approach to limiting munchkinism and I haven't seen a lot of torch and pitchfork bearing mobs complaining about that.

Or about the "just make it so and damn the rules" approach of the Solar System creation rules.

Putting in something along the lines of "These rules are for when you have an idea about the size of a unit but not the exact composition.  As such if you know what kind of composition and size of unit you want just make it.  This is a book.  It can't stop you."

If that isn't enough to keep torch and pitchfork bearing mobs down to a reasonable amount then I don't know what would be.

But now we finally get to a valid concern, how to make all the varied organizational schemes of the universe work without hamstringing.  Here is where I think the faction specific modifier would have to come into play along with providing the various organizational schemes in current use as examples.

Davout73

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #118 on: 05 December 2012, 12:07:59 »
10 years of writing BT has taught me that you have to address players like Bob or you get angry lynchmobs on the internet demanding to know why you left such glaring loopholes in the rules. Most of the lynchmobs will be made of non-Bobs who cannot be convinced to invoke simple rules like, "Get GM approval." It happened over and over with BT's nuke rules:

Players: "Why, oh great TPTB, did you allow such horrific, unbalancing weapons into the game?"
Writers: "Well, we said, 'Get the approval of everyone in your group before you pop nukes.' Why are you blaming us for your group's decision to use nukes?"
Players: "Lots of people in our group wanted to use nukes and we couldn't make them unhappy by vetoing them. So why did you even give rules for them in the first place?"

It's a dead end argument.  Players are going to do what they want to do, thru houserules or whatnot.  20 years of playtesting and ruleswriting  has taught me that.  20 years of playtesting and ruleswriting has also shown me that Bob's allowed to do what he can because rules writer's are afraid of offending a minority of players, and trust that the majority of players will keep that minority in line thru peer pressure, and are then shocked when that minority does break the "spirit" of the rules.   Then they'd rather spend 1 year and 200 pages on rules trying to prevent Bob from doing hat he's doing rather than saying on a forum "Bob, your being a dick and breaking the spirit of the rules by designing your 36 Atlas Assault regiment.  Now, if your playing by yourself, or if your friends and local gaming group are OK with you doing this, fine.  Just be aware that your not using the rules as intended."  And honestly Bob won't care because hey, hes already "broken" the rules.  Your not writing these rules for Bob.  So quit worrying about him, he's going to do what he wants anyways.

My response to Nuke the above example would be "Because they're cannon, they were used, and players wanted rules for them.  If you group doesn't want to use them, house rule it.  If there was a vote and you lost, then move on.  If you don;t want to use nukes and they do, find a different group."

Quote
Saying something like "Needs GM approval" in a game that often lacks GMs, or "Needs approval of other players in the group" when too many players are unwilling to be buzz-kills to their fellow players is not an effective means of regulation.

I'm not disagreeing, but if as a player o GM your unwilling to take a stand regarding something you believe in, say "No Nukes" because your afraid that might be a buzzkill, that's not a rules problem.  It never has been, and people trying to frame it as such are using it as a cop out.

Quote
That's not a fix for a couple of reasons. First, the wide variety of force organization structures (Clan, Inner Sphere generic, ComStar/WoB, etc.) means the player is likely to need to shuffle the units in their forces after the simpler guidelines of force creation limit their budgets. Second, you're robbing the player of flexibility. What makes the company the ideal force to you isn't an ideal force for others.

It's entirely possible.  Given time and a spreadsheet I can come up with the average cost of each basic unit, Lance, Star, Level.  I can further break that cost down by era, then derive the numbers for larger forces based on that smallest unit average.  It would consume 90% of the effort of going into the rules, and I's spend the rest of my life justifying the math to anyone with an issue, but it's possible.  Hard, time consuming, but possible.  Whats the average cost of an IS Mech in 3055?  Mulitply by 4 and thats your average lance cost.  A Clan Mech? Multiply by 5 and that's your average star cost.  Comstars a bit harder, because you have to find the average cost of a single mech, tank, Infantry and ASF, then find the average of those, then you multiply by six and here's your average level II. Heck, if you wanted to go deeper you could find the average cost per weight class, and faction.

The rules as currently presented give me a CBill total, with which I can buy any unit I want and organize them in any way as long as I don't exceed that total.  How much more flexible can they get?  If anything, in order to do what you want with regards to force organization, you need to introduce limits, then provide examples: Here's how we build a typical company, here's how we build a typical Trinary, here's how we build a typical Level III, and then you stress those are typical. 
Bob thinks 12 atlas's is an ideal force,  hes the exception to the rule.  I know if I have 96 million I'm going to spend it differently than you, and as long as neither of us breaks that limit, whats the argument? 


Quote
Consider the problem of writing rules for units of different weights. A typical 3025-era 'Mech battalion will mix 'Mechs of differing weights into a single lance. A scout lance might include medium and light units. An assault lance might include heavy and assault units. Every player has differing ideas on what constitutes command, fire, scout, assault, and other lance types
.

Well, then thats an argument for not using a single 2d6 roll and one table, and needing to provide more structure for the player to follow when building a typical force.

Dav

Kiiro no Torii, a Battletech AU, found here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,7316.0.html
Interview with a Mercenary, found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,319.0.html
Every Man Must Be Tempted, a KNT Universe series: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/every-man-must-be-tempted
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Acolyte

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Re: Interstellar Operations Open Beta Test: Creating A Force: Discussion
« Reply #119 on: 05 December 2012, 12:52:52 »
Cray, you're right about Bob.

I've been in many games, RPG's, campaigns,etc. and its taught me a few things. First off, it can be very hard to kick a player out of a group. It causes hard feelings and guilt all around, especially if this is someone you've gamed with for years. Second, it's not that easy to find a new group. There are people on this forum who've said "when I played, I'd do x, but I can't find anyone to play with right now, so I resort to MegaMek". Paraphrasing, of course, but its something that happens. I've seen it on these forums.

As to Bob's problem, how about different levels of play? Kinda like the "Hero Mode" in the AToW Companion, except that it adjusts your budget. If people want to make a "Lite" unit, they get a fraction of the budget, if they want a "UltraClanOmniKillingMunchy" unit, they get a multiplier. Might help, and Bob can then spend lots of money out at IWM. This modifier then also acts as your checks and balances when people meet to show units.

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