Idle curiosity: What would you bid...

[jimdigris]

The Jaguar, or the Snow Raven?  ^-^

Snow Raven, actually.  ;)

[Liam's Ghost]

Snow Raven, actually.  ;)

[Scotty]

Pretty sure fifteen-point hits add up faster, when they're coming from beyond the range of most the IS company's weapons, and they're hitting targets with tissue-thin armor. A Timbie trio could easily kite most of this company to pieces, assuming we're not talking IS elites or a phone-booth-sized map or something.

Attacks at long range are functionally irrelevant outside of lucky hits.  Most of the Clan range advantage is effectively the increased medium and short ranges on most of their weapons.  Perhaps not coincidentally, LRMs, PPCs, and AC/5s are the IS's best chance at keeping the range game at least close even if it's still not individually in their favor.

[Colt Ward]

Uh . . . 1 Gun elite and 2 Gun veterans . . . mean 9s & 10s if good LOS and both run.  With the Clan speed advantage they can get a +2 walking usually so . . . 8s & 9s w/o TC or LPL.  Compared to IS regulars (4) running b/c they have to to close the range (+2), firing at long range (+4), at a faster Clan design (+3 for 5/8 or better) . . . is 13.

Say I am a elite Timber Wolf D pilot that ran obliquely for 3 turns and kept firing both b/c I had a 1(Gun)+2(ran)+4(long)+1(enemy move)- means I got a 8 TH to be 4/6 next turn.  Back up to keep distance and . . . 4(IS Reg)+2(ran)+4(long)+1(enemy move) . . . so the Clan warrior gave up a 11 the next turn for PPCs, LRMs or AC/5 while getting the chance to double tap those 15 point hits at a statistical advantage.

[JPArbiter]

I would bid a medium to heavyweight Nova. Say a Thor, Vulture, Ryoken, and two Hankyus backed by flamer and laser equipped Elementals

I would have in reserve a second light cavalry unit of ullers/koshis and Fenris/dragonflys

[Greatclub]

A heavy star might be able to do it. Not without losses, but doable. A pair of medium stars would be overkill unless you had really poor mech choices.

Looking at the RATs from ER:3052, I'd say the wolves, bears and jaguars could pull it off, maybe. Not a Jade Falcon star, they like their Loki too much for their own good.

00000

That's a company full of deathtraps, stiffened by a couple decent choices. Where did it come from?

Let me modify my bid.

On rolling or endless maps, my bid stands. On 2 standard maps, I need to call down more firepower.

[Scotty]

Snip

I agree that if you assume that the Clan units universally achieve the perfect scenario on flat,  unbroken terrain with no meaningful features.

No surprise imagining perfection results in a flawless victory.

[Kojak]

FWIW, I just tested this out. Gave the Clanners three 3/4 Timbie As and used the IS company listed with 3/4s for the lance commanders and 4/5s for the rest (both sides came out to a bit under 11K BV, with the IS side a couple hundred points higher), on a 45x45 map of rolling hills and trees. While the game isn't over yet, the IS company is down to three non-crippled 'Mechs and none of the Timbies have even had armor stripped on a location, so I feel like this is at least a data point in favor of my bid.

EDIT: Finished at Round 20 with a totally one-sided victory in favor of the Timbies. All 12 IS 'Mechs destroyed, no internal damage on any of the Timber Wolves.

[Colt Ward]

I agree that if you assume that the Clan units universally achieve the perfect scenario on flat,  unbroken terrain with no meaningful features.

No surprise imagining perfection results in a flawless victory.

No Scotty, what I am accounting for is the basic equations.  The simple point was that the Clans will be able to have decent numbers while keeping the fight at long range- irregardless of terrain.  Factor in terrain and it will drive the Clan player's TH up by 1 or 2 and make any return fire impossible by the IS.  You can 'what if' all you want but a Clan elite and veteran warrior will have long range shots at the IS forces when the IS cannot respond.

If you look at what I actually wrote about how I played the scenario out, I gave the IS company extremely favorable terrain and though I did not mention it, I played by zell as described in the linked topic.  Now against a real player, it probably would have gotten even closer since the bot does not quite understand laying a ambush.  Heck, I would be willing to test this against a real person and flip the sides to do it from both perspectives.

[massey]

As long as the terrain isn't crazy in favor of the Inner Sphere (an all woods map, etc), the Clans should be able to pick a range bracket where they can hit occasionally and the IS can never hit.  It doesn't really matter if it's medium or long range, as long as there's line of sight beyond a few hexes and nobody goes on a crazy initiative winning streak, the Clans can dictate their ranges.

[Scotty]

No Scotty, what I am accounting for is the basic equations.  The simple point was that the Clans will be able to have decent numbers while keeping the fight at long range- irregardless of terrain.  Factor in terrain and it will drive the Clan player's TH up by 1 or 2 and make any return fire impossible by the IS.  You can 'what if' all you want but a Clan elite and veteran warrior will have long range shots at the IS forces when the IS cannot respond.

If you look at what I actually wrote about how I played the scenario out, I gave the IS company extremely favorable terrain and though I did not mention it, I played by zell as described in the linked topic.  Now against a real player, it probably would have gotten even closer since the bot does not quite understand laying a ambush.  Heck, I would be willing to test this against a real person and flip the sides to do it from both perspectives.

Sorry, but terrain where you can indefinitely manage a +3 mod on a 5/8 platform while never allowing a same speed opponent to close distance is not and never will be "extremely favorable terrain" for any IS force. The numbers you're describing are absolutely assuming prefect situations for the Clan force.  Arguably, the "favorable" terrain for the IS force is anything but, since numbers as presented the terrain exists in such a way to never impede mobility while always driving numbers toward the top of the bell curve, which you've correctly identified as the point where the Clan advantage is highest.

[Colt Ward]

You are confusing two different statements.

The first about basic numbers which has a supposition that most of the Clan forces involved will be 5/8 or faster while the IS forces will be 4/6 to have comparable firepower- yes Quickdraws, Dervishes, Wolverines, Griffins and Shadow Hawks but they will not suffice to deal with Summoners & Timber Wolves.  Most IS heavies of the Invasion were 4/6, many of the heavier mediums (ENF, CN9, HBK) are that speed and the faster assaults are also 4/6.  So, 5/8 or faster Clan force against IS 4/6 force is going to get those numbers when able to run at a oblique as I described.  I also included the option of walking, either forward or backwards.  Fighting favors the Clan force that can stay out 16 hexes or more- I have 9 hexes of ERLL, 7 hexes of ERPPC, and 6 hexes of Gauss plus UAC/5 & LB-5X.  The IS has 3 hexes of PPC & AC/5, 5 of LRM (same as Clan), and of course AC/2.  With the imbalance in numbers, the damage potential being tossed back and force should be about equal but the Clan force will hit more often- for bigger hits.

The second part of the statement, which was why it was a separate paragraph, discussed the scenario as I played it out- which gave extremely favorable terrain to the IS.  I described it but did not spell it out, so here- I played with roughly 8 BT Canyon maps, 6 rolling hills and I think it was 2 'Battletech' that had the hill & pond.  LG's IS force had 6 jumping mechs though most were lighter while my Clan force had a single Pouncer able to jump though all fell in that 'or faster' category (Linebacker, Adder, Ice Ferret) so able to mostly keep favorable move mods (+3 when running, +2 when walking).

[Apocal]

Dire Wolf Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Nova A
Ice Ferret D
+Elementals, any mix.

[JadeHellbringer]

Dire Wolf Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Nova A
Ice Ferret D
+Elementals, any mix.

Drop that DW for a Summoner D, and I'd call that a pretty good bid. Might also switch a Crow for the C config, but that's just because I lurrrrrve that one so much. (Dire Wolves can be fun, but I'm too mobility-minded for 3/5 to be much more than an anchor)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The sheer amount of long-range devastation that a Daishi Prime can toss out does make it tempting in this scenario, but yeah, I'd angle for mobility instead.

[Sartris]

one very angry ghost bear just woken up from hibernation

[shadowdancer]

My bid
Warhawk C
Timber Wolf E
Storm Crow B
Elemental Laser
Elemental Flamer

[massey]

I'll bid a Daishi Widowmaker with a 1/2 pilot with the sniper SPA.  That's a dead IS company right there.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, adding Morale rules would do a better job simulating the lopsided matchups depicted in the early books: as the omnis start killing mechs from beyond most of the company's retaliation range, unit cohesion will start to become an issue and that will affect the outcome.

[Apocal]

Drop that DW for a Summoner D, and I'd call that a pretty good bid. Might also switch a Crow for the C config, but that's just because I lurrrrrve that one so much. (Dire Wolves can be fun, but I'm too mobility-minded for 3/5 to be much more than an anchor)

Oh yeah, that would definitely still fit the bill, especially with jump jets to add a juicy extra TMM. But the Dire Wolf's job (in my mind) is to provide a strong counter-balance to the natural inclination of a force with more numbers and armor from closing in, while also adding its own variety of long-ranged shots to the equation. Of course it would be vulnerable to some of the speedier IS stuff, but honestly the DW has enough rear armor and arm-mounted weapons to deal with them at its own convenience. Stormcrow C might be interesting as well, even if just to function as a backup Bug Zapper, followed by exploiting open anything on the heavier stuff.

The elementals would just be a figurative minefield to cover the mediums' backs.

My bid
Warhawk C
Timber Wolf E
Storm Crow B
Elemental Laser
Elemental Flamer

I have an unhealthy love affair with any and all mediums mounting AC/20-class weapons but it seems to me the Stormcrow B is honestly the wrong tool for this job. Diving into range to make the best of its UAC/20 is going to leave the machine hurting real bad if the IS company maintains cohesion at all. And even if they haven't, for whatever reason, there is enough speed on the IS side to very quickly put the Stormcrow in a bad place it can't escape from. Maybe just a bodyguard unit or executioner, if you're throwing zell out?

[shadowdancer]

A quick pass with the Stormcrow to drop off elementals and back to the line. If you have a quick shoot with the 20 who knows.

[Daryk]

I'll be interested to see Paul's results and compare them to Kojak's on a larger board.  Given Kojak's results, I think Paul's prediction of clan victory will hold, though not quite as lopsided as Kojak's.  No internal damage is a high bar...

[ActionButler]

Locked for review.

[ActionButler]

 C:-)
All

Several comments have been removed and the thread is being reopened. The mod staff strongly encourages everyone to stay on the topic of the conversation rather than commenting on and/or about other posters, which is a very short hop away from violating Rule 1.
 C:-)

[Colt Ward]

I am going to flip it and play the IS force against the bot using the same maps my bid defeated them on.  It will also be interesting to see the BV difference.

[Liam's Ghost]

So how about a new "what would you bid?" scenario?

In this case, we find ourselves in the Draconis Combine as part of clan Smoke Jaguar.

Your opponents in this case are a lance of mechs known as the Senshi no Shakuyaku. Your Comstar intelligence informs you that they are a veteran level unit of retainers personally sworn to a local noble, and their paint scheme is absolutely FABULOUS.

The lance composition is:

Charger 1A1 (lance commander)
2 Dragon 1Ns
1 Quickdraw 4G

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ryoken B and Hankyu C.

[ravensword]

So how about a new "what would you bid?" scenario?

In this case, we find ourselves in the Draconis Combine as part of clan Smoke Jaguar.

Your opponents in this case are a lance of mechs known as the Senshi no Shakuyaku. Your Comstar intelligence informs you that they are a veteran level unit of retainers personally sworn to a local noble, and their paint scheme is absolutely FABULOUS.

The lance composition is:

Charger 1A1 (lance commander)
2 Dragon 1Ns
1 Quickdraw 4G

My final bid would probably be two Stormcrows, most likely Primes.  Maybe add a point or two of Elementals.

[massey]

So how about a new "what would you bid?" scenario?

In this case, we find ourselves in the Draconis Combine as part of clan Smoke Jaguar.

Your opponents in this case are a lance of mechs known as the Senshi no Shakuyaku. Your Comstar intelligence informs you that they are a veteran level unit of retainers personally sworn to a local noble, and their paint scheme is absolutely FABULOUS.

The lance composition is:

Charger 1A1 (lance commander)
2 Dragon 1Ns
1 Quickdraw 4G

I’m sure this is a reference to something, but I don’t know what.

Masakari C with a vet pilot (2/3).

[Ruger]

So how about a new "what would you bid?" scenario?

In this case, we find ourselves in the Draconis Combine as part of clan Smoke Jaguar.

Your opponents in this case are a lance of mechs known as the Senshi no Shakuyaku. Your Comstar intelligence informs you that they are a veteran level unit of retainers personally sworn to a local noble, and their paint scheme is absolutely FABULOUS.

The lance composition is:

Charger 1A1 (lance commander)
2 Dragon 1Ns
1 Quickdraw 4G

If I'm a Smoke Jaguar, I would probably bid something crazy to go against this lance...something like a single Ebon Jaguar A or maybe a B.

Ruger