Author Topic: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?  (Read 13673 times)

abou

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The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« on: 20 January 2021, 20:48:51 »
An idea came to me last night about what a campaign would look like if the players had to use those designs we usually consider mediocre -- or even bad. How creative would they become with confronting challenges if they could no longer just Marauder or Timber Wolf their way through problems?

In general my thoughts were for a medium to low-end heavy lance. An example might look like this:

Quickdraw
Rifleman
Shadow Hawk
Vulcan

I did not have a BV in mind, but more the feel: the scrappy 'mechwarriors in second-tier machines making it happen in the rough & tumble mercenary market. I think it would be fun, but maybe I'm crazy. I have become fond of imperfect designs that are full of compromises and flavor.

What about you? I am on to something or would it just prove too frustrating for the players?

Wolf72

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #1 on: 20 January 2021, 21:02:29 »
Vindicator for one ...

Not the Rifleman, I like it but 2 LL and not enough HS kill me ... maybe swap everything out for 4 AC-2.
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CJC070

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #2 on: 20 January 2021, 21:51:34 »
An idea came to me last night about what a campaign would look like if the players had to use those designs we usually consider mediocre -- or even bad. How creative would they become with confronting challenges if they could no longer just Marauder or Timber Wolf their way through problems?

In general my thoughts were for a medium to low-end heavy lance. An example might look like this:

Quickdraw
Rifleman
Shadow Hawk
Vulcan

I did not have a BV in mind, but more the feel: the scrappy 'mechwarriors in second-tier machines making it happen in the rough & tumble mercenary market. I think it would be fun, but maybe I'm crazy. I have become fond of imperfect designs that are full of compromises and flavor.

What about you? I am on to something or would it just prove too frustrating for the players?

They may not want to stick with these mechs and trade at their first chance.  It would be an interesting experiment and potentially fun especially if it was in the Third Succession War.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #3 on: 21 January 2021, 01:10:22 »
Well, if you really want to hamstring them:

Whitworth
Rifleman (the Marik variant with quad ACs from the Snord's Irregulars scenario pack, replacing heat issues with ammo shortages)
Charger
Flea
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #4 on: 21 January 2021, 01:39:46 »
not quite as cruel as the time i started the players out with a pair each of coppers and quasits but close  :))

Scorpion 1N
Clint 3T
Vulcan 2T
Stinger 3G

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #5 on: 21 January 2021, 01:41:09 »
Everyone gets a Hornet.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #6 on: 21 January 2021, 04:15:21 »
I would happily play a Vulcan!  8)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #7 on: 21 January 2021, 04:31:36 »
Quickdraw
Shadow Hawk
Clint
Cicada

Just cause I'm cruel.... :)

Elmoth

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #8 on: 21 January 2021, 09:15:58 »
Shadow Hawk is out for me because it is a VERY uncommon mech. Yes it is. It is only produced in 2 places in the IS in 3025, one of them being the Magistracy of Canopus. It is a poster boy, but it should be as rare as Stinger LAMs.

Mediocre means median, not bad. Very common. Capable, not shinny.
So for me it is

- Rifleman or dragon. Both are long range support mechs. Both are very expensive from an ammo POV.
- Centurion.
- Wolverine 6R. A stapple of all factions common and reliable, but with a less than stellar weapons loadout.
- Wasp 1A. Want a common mech that is not the best scout ever? The wasp fits the bill.

Centurion and Dragon are the less common pair, but they are fairly common to come across in most of the IS as salvage that the factions doing the salvage do not want them much having better alternatives.

And yet it is a capable lance. Not shiny but it can ge tthe job done. What a mediocre lance should be able to do.

If you were talking about "common and bad" the list would be different.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #9 on: 21 January 2021, 09:21:52 »
Shadow Hawk is out for me because it is a VERY uncommon mech. Yes it is. It is only produced in 2 places in the IS in 3025, one of them being the Magistracy of Canopus. It is a poster boy, but it should be as rare as Stinger LAMs.


That's like saying the VW Beetle is uncommon in the 1980s because only one factory in Brazil makes it. A lot of those Shadow Hawks have been handed down from when the Star League was making them like hotcakes.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #10 on: 21 January 2021, 09:29:18 »
Same can be said about LAMs then ;)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #11 on: 21 January 2021, 09:47:06 »
a lite hvy lance ?  hmmm,

P-hawk
Charger
Ostsol
Fire Javelin

saves on ammo costs, tough and capable, not flashy
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #12 on: 21 January 2021, 10:14:31 »
I'd be happy to run a QKD in a "mediocre" lance.  They're a perfectly fine addition to the highly regarded 55 ton Medium 'Mech trio, except that they weigh 60 tons.  Granted, they're one of the poorer Heavy 'Mechs, but if you play them as a typical 55T Medium they're reasonably effective, and fit in nicely with them from a firepower, armor, AND speed perspective.  The variant which has the 4xMLs facing forward, and the SRMs facing back, is actually pretty nasty.

The SHD is a generalist, and neither "good" nor "bad" in my opinion, although its firepower is a bit on the weak side against other 'Mechs.

The RFL is likewise effective in roles where it's not fighting other 'Mechs, and is able to provide decent supporting firepower in situations where it's not a primary target for the opposition.  Unfortunately, it's slower than the rest of the proposed lance, and will hold them back.

A VL makes a very good anti-vehicle platform, sends infantry running away screaming in terror, and serves as a reasonably effective scout-hunter, but is once again not designed to fight other 'Mechs.

Overall, I'd take that lance in a contract where they're not expected to be facing other 'Mechs, or for general security duties.  I would refuse to use it in any kind of "battle line", and make sure that any contracts taken would exempt the unit from such actions at the discretion of the lance leader.

As for the WTH suggestion, yes please.  A WTH provides the same long-ranged firepower as a Dervish, and holds the same amount of armor, but at only 40 tons of total mass instead of 55.  It's got roughly comparable short-ranged firepower as well: 3 MLs instead of 2 MLs and 2 SRM-2 racks, and both designs need to "bracket fire" the weapons best suited to the range to the target, rather than alpha-striking and overheating.  The only significant advantage that the DV gets for its extra 15 tons of mass is one more point of speed.  I've fielded WTHs in numerous battles, where they were able to provide reasonably effective fire support until the ammo ran out, and then their 3xML secondary weapons were generally adequate for "cleanup" operations against whatever was left of the opposition.  They won't stand up for long against something nearly twice their size, unless it's already been hammered pretty badly, but they're dirt cheap for what they bring to the table.

The comparisons that I often see here are between "typical" units that most forces would field, and the rare "cream of the crop" pieces which only a few units can afford and manage to acquire.  The OP's suggestion stacks up at least passably well against the "norm", but would clearly be outmatched by the optimized and specialized forces which most players tend to run.  Would I specifically choose these units?  No.  Would I be willing to use them in roles at least somewhat suited to them? Sure.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2021, 10:41:36 by Kovax »

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #13 on: 21 January 2021, 10:30:12 »
I would happily play a Vulcan!  8)

yeah, it can't be abjectly terrible. there should be some options for creative solutions

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Crimson Dawn

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #14 on: 21 January 2021, 11:58:20 »
The Dervish also provides flexibility over the whitworth if you need it.  That second ton of SRM ammo allows for things like infernos which allows you to take advantage of certain situations and take out certain kinds of units easily.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #15 on: 21 January 2021, 12:28:19 »
Same can be said about LAMs then ;)

Not so much.

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Produced in limited numbers by only a handful of factories, the majority of LAM manufacturers were among those factories lost to the maelstrom of the early Succession Wars.

The writing has been pretty clear that Shadow Hawks are common and LAMs are not.
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Colt Ward

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #16 on: 21 January 2021, 12:56:49 »
Yeah, I will join the consensus . . .

For the first two-

Quickdraw
Shadow Hawk 2H

Simply while they are mobile, they are not exceptionally mobile and they lack the LL, PPC or AC/10 of putting a big hole for their smaller guns to aim at . . . Honestly, if we got a Quickdraw with a LL instead of some of the missile spread it might work out better.

Third Mech-
Jagermech if you want a heavy, forget the Rifleman which at least has LL to make big-ish holes to exploit and has it's known problems.  The Jager takes it further, 4 pop-guns instead of two and the biggest dink is going to be for 5 points.  And unlike the RFL, it has fewer solutions to improve it and stay true to the flavor.  The RFL can step down the AC/5s to 2s to gain more armor & HS while still staying pretty much the same mech- or drop one LL for a ML to increase available armor & HS.  The Jager?  okay, it can go to 4 AC/2s . . . but that makes it's damage output worse even if you get more armor, what is the point?

Vulcan 2T if you want a med, I will agree with this . . . just a bit faster and a very eclectic mix of weaponry that has no complimentary ranges except maybe the Flamer & MG.  Have to watch the speed b/c you could end up out ahead of the other mechs which are heavier armored.

Wasp 1W if you want a light.  I know it is a Dragoons machine, but it just a blah . . . and IF you are facing someone who knows it's variant history, it might be a fire magnet it cannot survive.  The Wasp 1W is not fast enough to chase down and exploit its very limited range and to slow to outrun everything that can kill it.  Six Small Lasers can put out some damage . . . if you can get 1 to 2 hexes away from a target.

Fourth mech- got to be a light
Commando 1A . . . somewhere in the boonies, these mercs picked up a primitive mech that dates back to the first designs every used.  With a Large Laser, you are putting the biggest gun on the weakest chassis . . . but its a mech right?

TLDR
Quickdraw 4G
Shadow Hawk 2H
Jagermech 6-S/Vulcan 2T/Wasp 1W
Commando 1A
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Daryk

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #17 on: 21 January 2021, 17:13:16 »
The JM6-A is really not bad...  Seriously, 2xLRM-15s and 2xAC/2s with two more tons of armor actually kind of works...  ^-^

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #18 on: 21 January 2021, 19:52:45 »

This is more cripplingly sucktastic than mediocre, but for the sadistic and masochistic there’s this:

UrbanMech -60
For the classic 2/3/2 immobility, of course.

Commando -1C
For the plinktastic threat of one AC/2.  Don’t forget the medium laser.

Wasp -1W
For the range of six small lasers.  Like a Charger minus the armor and physical attacks.

Flea -14
15 tons, 9/14, one medium laser, and one ton of armor.  For Locust pilots who are not suicidal enough.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #19 on: 21 January 2021, 19:56:13 »
That's very much a "leave the Urbie at base" lance...

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #20 on: 21 January 2021, 20:51:35 »
Reminds me of one of those lances you take out for training in the HBS game

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #21 on: 21 January 2021, 20:59:39 »
It's almost like it's a universal truth...  ::)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #22 on: 21 January 2021, 21:01:05 »
Natasha, you forgot that particular Flea has jump jets. 4 of them. Because.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #23 on: 21 January 2021, 21:02:26 »
Because 8/12/5 is so much worse, obviously...  ::)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #24 on: 21 January 2021, 21:53:53 »
I've long considered a "classic Succession Wars lance" to be something like this:

Wasp 1A
Stinger 3R
Locust 1V
Phoenix Hawk 1

It's the basic, default scout lance.  Honestly these things should be all over the place.  I kind of want to run one in a campaign.

The trick with it is to avoid contact with enemy mechs (and honestly most vehicles as well, along with large concentrations of infantry) at all costs.  Your job is to scout out positions before the rest of the attacking force gets there, and then run away.  Or go somewhere and smash a bridge, tear up rail lines, and blast a fuel depot.  This lance should almost never engage in a classic Battletech fight.

Except... you're also vultures that feed on the wounded.  The Battletech 3rd edition boxed set had a scenario where an injured Battlemaster tried to limp its way off the field.  It was separated from the other mechs in its unit, had some armor damage, and ran into a group of lighter mechs.  Part of your job is to look for weakened stragglers, and then go pick them off.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #25 on: 21 January 2021, 21:58:37 »
Natasha, you forgot that particular Flea has jump jets. 4 of them. Because.

So much goodness, it’s hard to remember it all.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #26 on: 22 January 2021, 03:08:42 »
Not so much.

The writing has been pretty clear that Shadow Hawks are common and LAMs are not.

LAMs suffered from a severe shortage of spare parts.  Shadow Hawks appear to be made mostly of leftover spare parts.

Also, when they get shot down, Shadow Hawks tend not to leave bits of spare parts scattered across six hexes worth of terrain.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #27 on: 22 January 2021, 08:59:55 »
Shads were also probably built in a five digit number (if not six). The workhorse star league mechs were so numerous that the practically bottomless pit of spares has kept them in service for 500+ years despite a new one not being produced in over a century by 3150.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #28 on: 22 January 2021, 09:59:19 »
My list would probably be:

Commando -2D

Clint -3T  or Blackjack -1

Shadow Hawk -2H or Kintaro -18

Quickdraw -4G or Grasshopper -5H

A lot depends on if you want to go with, "WTH unit have I been assigned to," or "This could work, but could we get anything more fun?"
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #29 on: 22 January 2021, 10:14:02 »
Not really sure the Kintaro or Grasshopper would be considered mediocre.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #30 on: 22 January 2021, 10:20:45 »
the grasshopper isn't flashy but it's a tank. the kintaro has heat issues but it can do big damage

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #31 on: 22 January 2021, 10:24:44 »
Not really sure the Kintaro or Grasshopper would be considered mediocre.

They're not on my list of initial go-tos for top tier or basement bin.  That is part of what applies the mediocre tag to them.

And honestly, if I want a missile boat, I prefer LRMs as the primary, not SRMs.  But maybe that's just a me thing.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #32 on: 23 January 2021, 23:45:40 »
Many moons ago--in the days of yore-- I played in a "maligned 'Mechs" campaign. Players got to basically choose machines per the descriptions of TRO 3025, subject to group discussion and approval. So, while players even then listed a SHD or GOL as a suboptimal design, the lore never intimated that. So, we ran a lance originaally comprised of a Whitworth, Blackjack, Quickdraw, and Charger. At different times, a Clint, Vulcan, Scorpion, BattleTechnology Battleaxe, Stardate Flea, and of course the redoubtable Banshee eventually were seen.

It turned out a lot of designs that were listed as poor actually aren't that bad. If nothing else, it made individual players really find ways and means where they could excel. Even with the original quirks list (from Dragon magazine, printed on yellow pages, with the backlit shadowy horned knight on the cover; Issue 166) in play in a later iteration of the original campaign, most of the designs are not truly terrible.

The original lance listed above can put out some serious close-range hurt on two standard maps. Even at long range it can hold its own. Though it was a campaign, the battles were generally evenly matched. A CGR can do some bad things in a 200ish tonne lance scrum. And it's hard to stay away from the massed medium lasers of that lance on on the 1x2 playing fields seen all to often back then.

Now, I'm a Regulan/Free Worlder through and through, but I got an enduring love of my old PlasTech Blackjack during that campaign, as well as the Clint and Banshee. A well-run BNC-3E can take apart a BLR-1G if played right (just as an RFL-3N is a superb dueling machine if one is willing to invest the time to figure out the nuances). Remember, its not always the speed of the car in the race, its often the relative insanity of the driver.

Well, if anyone here gets a chance to play through such a campaign, it is entirely worth it if done even reasonable right. Give it a shot.
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ckosacranoid

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #33 on: 24 January 2021, 17:03:53 »
Your lance is made up of 4 locusts with the twin form 5 and med laser and one ton of armor.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #34 on: 24 January 2021, 20:24:48 »
Since mediocre doesn't mean "bad" or crappy, it means "ordinary, common, average, u remarkable", I'd use the most dirt common designs from the period. I go back to the first edition of the merc handbook, where the original 52 designs were given "availability ratings" based on their commonality in the 3025 marketplace.
Some designs were easy (4+ on a 2d6 roll) some were harder (10 or 11+).going with a lance made up of 4+ mechs; that being the easiest and therefore most common designs;

Crusader
Dervish
Phoenix Hawk
Locust ( or Wasp or Stinger, all equally common, but the Locust at least has speed)

massey

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #35 on: 24 January 2021, 20:35:10 »
Your lance is made up of 4 locusts with the twin form 5 and med laser and one ton of armor.

That just means I have an 8/12 Archer.  Not too shabby, especially if I rely almost solely on indirect fire.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #36 on: 24 January 2021, 23:45:03 »
I had a 4th SW era Kurita unit that could have been made into a 3rd SW one.

Hatchetman-3F ( they did capture some to make the -5K )
Whithworth--1
Jenner-F
Panther-8Z

Yeah this was from a defuncted unit that I later made better.

From the pre-cursor of the Battle for Fallon II, classic Hatcheman vs. Hatchetman fight, 42nd Avalon Hussars vs Ryuken-ni, circa mid-'50's.

I did win that fight... was very hard!

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Col Toda

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #37 on: 25 January 2021, 01:49:03 »
4 Goliath quads w ammo in center torso.

abou

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #38 on: 26 January 2021, 14:47:40 »
I'm glad this thread had a lot of interest. And at least it has potential. For me the idea is that such a lance would be up against all sorts of opponents: 'mechs, vehicles, infantry. No reason to assume they wouldn't.

As for salvaging rides and trading in, that is a maybe. I would assume that we would see things such as forced withdraw in effect, which would mean panicked 'mechwarriors would retreat before losing their 'mech. So the 'mech they have is one they will be using for a long time.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #39 on: 26 January 2021, 15:11:14 »
Which is why I suggested what I did . . . for most folks, it is going to be 'mediocre' if the lance is not good at killing other mechs.  The Quickdraw and Shadow Hawk are ok, but do not offer huge armor punching hits that can quickly disable a opposing mech.  As a bit of a joke, the biggest hit in the lance I offered was in a weak light- a primitive Commando- making it the glass cannon of the force.
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MarauderD

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #40 on: 26 January 2021, 17:32:49 »
Many moons ago--in the days of yore-- I played in a "maligned 'Mechs" campaign. Players got to basically choose machines per the descriptions of TRO 3025, subject to group discussion and approval. So, while players even then listed a SHD or GOL as a suboptimal design, the lore never intimated that. So, we ran a lance originaally comprised of a Whitworth, Blackjack, Quickdraw, and Charger. At different times, a Clint, Vulcan, Scorpion, BattleTechnology Battleaxe, Stardate Flea, and of course the redoubtable Banshee eventually were seen.

It turned out a lot of designs that were listed as poor actually aren't that bad. If nothing else, it made individual players really find ways and means where they could excel. Even with the original quirks list (from Dragon magazine, printed on yellow pages, with the backlit shadowy horned knight on the cover; Issue 166) in play in a later iteration of the original campaign, most of the designs are not truly terrible.

Just googled that issue of Dragon Magazine and scanned through it.  It had a review of the original Wing Commander from back in 1991.  What a time machine!

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #41 on: 26 January 2021, 18:14:59 »
From the random opponent table of my 1st edition mechwarrior rpg book.

I Choose:
Wolverine
Enforcer
Valkyrie
Stinger

Since back then I tended to be a Fed Suns guy.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #42 on: 26 January 2021, 18:57:42 »
Well, at least they all jump!  :)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #43 on: 27 January 2021, 10:23:03 »
I had a 4th SW era Kurita unit that could have been made into a 3rd SW one.

Hatchetman-3F ( they did capture some to make the -5K )
Whithworth--1
Jenner-F
Panther-8Z

I'd actually rate the WTH-1 as "good" for its tonnage, but its restrictive tonnage tends to limit its popularity.  By firepower, armor, and most other criteria, it's essentially a slower Dervish at 15 tons less weight.
The JR7-F qualifies as a mini-"muchkin" design.  It doesn't get much better that that in the Light class, arguably aside from a Wolfhound or Mongoose.

On the other hand, both the Panther and Hatchetman are somewhat mediocre for various reasons; not actually "bad",  but not optimal by any means.

Church14

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #44 on: 27 January 2021, 10:26:36 »
A relentlessly average and unexciting succession war lance....

Whitworth
Vindicator
Panther
Enforcer

All 4/6/4 with decent armor, some long range capability, some short range capabilities, some ammo dependency, and heat issues if they want to jump. I’m not excited or disappointed seeing any in one of my lances.

Only issue is no real anti-infantry weaponry. Have to spray missiles or avoid them. Unless there is a flamer/MG toting variant of one of these

Crimson Dawn

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #45 on: 27 January 2021, 10:42:50 »
Well the original vindicator had a machine gun but had to have it removed due to a mandate that not all of the parts could be made by the same company so they replaced it with a small laser.  Not sure if that has an official record sheet or not though and that would be insanely rare (though I suppose one could mod a standard vindicator back to that model if they wanted to).

There is also a whitworth with a flamer but it is a rare Amaris version and I think it is also one that uses SRMs.  Unlikely to see but it does exist.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #46 on: 27 January 2021, 10:49:58 »
Well, Small Laser for Flamer works . . . what about the -1SIC?
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #47 on: 27 January 2021, 11:01:21 »
Well the original vindicator had a machine gun but had to have it removed due to a mandate that not all of the parts could be made by the same company so they replaced it with a small laser.  Not sure if that has an official record sheet or not though and that would be insanely rare (though I suppose one could mod a standard vindicator back to that model if they wanted to).

does not exist as a record sheet that i'm aware of. jk. it's the VND-1X. i forgot that was the MG one. it was used by both the CC and SIC until the end of the clan invasion

Quote
There is also a whitworth with a flamer but it is a rare Amaris version and I think it is also one that uses SRMs.  Unlikely to see but it does exist.

The WTH-0 (it earned the name señor zippo in an amaris campaign i ran) was used by the taurians until it disappeared sometime before 2900. the WTH-1S (srm boat) served until around the end of the clan invasion.

« Last Edit: 27 January 2021, 11:21:45 by Sartris »

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Church14

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #48 on: 27 January 2021, 12:25:08 »
Well, sounds like my lance is a mediocre (rimshot) hit.

Make the vindicator the -1X and the rest the common variants.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #49 on: 27 January 2021, 13:04:55 »
The JR7-F qualifies as a mini-"muchkin" design.  It doesn't get much better that that in the Light class, arguably aside from a Wolfhound or Mongoose.


Though it might be a little more vulnerable in that lance of 4/6/4 movers.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #50 on: 27 January 2021, 19:00:10 »
The Fire Javelin is on par with the Uparmored Jenner, but yeah, I'd give the edge to the Jenner...

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #51 on: 27 January 2021, 20:35:58 »
I'm always seemingly getting screwed with ammo explosions with the standard Jenner, but when I found the F variant, I was hooked!

Same profile, same damage and more armor? Yes please! I hopped, literally, around with my mini, all painted in shiny blood red! Take that you Davion...  xp

Yeah, later I had another Hatchetman vs. Hatchetman fight, more of a rematch... that was a hard won fight I tell you.

TT



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Fear Factory

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #52 on: 27 January 2021, 23:52:37 »
ASN-21 Assassin
WTH-1 Whitworth
CLNT-2-3T Clint
CDA-2A Cicada

Seems like a healthy mix of mediocrity. I'm game.
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abou

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #53 on: 28 January 2021, 08:44:16 »
Might have to come up with a BV amount and run mediocre lances against each other.

CrossfirePilot

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #54 on: 29 January 2021, 19:14:55 »
Well, at least they all jump!  :)

Funny, as soon as i read that, House of Pain "Jump Around" started going through my head.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #55 on: 29 January 2021, 19:58:18 »
LOL!  Jump... JUMP!  :D

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #56 on: 08 February 2021, 10:38:51 »
ASN-21 Assassin
WTH-1 Whitworth
CLNT-2-3T Clint
CDA-2A Cicada

Seems like a healthy mix of mediocrity. I'm game.
I suspect that this is one of those cases where the whole is less than the sum of its parts.  The WTH-1 is going to hold back the entire lance, due to its far lower movement rate.  Having one 'Mech faster than the rest of the lance is often a good idea, allowing for flanking or scouting options, but having one boat anchor tied to the lance REALLY limits things.  You can't just run away without leaving your slowest member to his/her/its fate.  The rest of the lance would make a good scout-hunter group.

I can actually picture one or more of the Mechwarriors being content with the mix, since the old horror story saying goes "You don't need to be faster than the monster, just faster than the slowest in your group".  That's why you bring the annoying fat kid or the bubble-headed bleach blonde on the outing to the cemetery on Halloween.....or bring the WTH-1 on the mission behind enemy lines.

Empyrus

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #57 on: 08 February 2021, 10:50:11 »
In IntroTech games, the Whitworth is reasonable unit in right kind of lances. Pair it with Centurions, Vindicators, Enforcers, Panthers... anything with 4/6/x movement and it is good. But that fast lance? Nope.

That said, the end result is kinda mediocre lance certainly. And depending on the game, one unit having low speed may not be an issue. My games are usually lance on lance or such, and end up with mix of unit speeds, even though my units, companies all, have strict organization based on unit speeds.

Greatclub

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #58 on: 16 February 2021, 23:38:15 »
Centurion
ShadowHawk
Clint
Jagermech

...
...
...
OK, I don't want to run that. But it's something you'd realistically run into (Except the Clint is supposed to be rare), and on the heavy end to boot.

Empyrus

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #59 on: 17 February 2021, 01:45:24 »
Replace the Shadow Hawk and i see a Lance i'd be quite willing to run. The Shadow Hawk ruins everything :P

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #60 on: 17 February 2021, 15:12:32 »
So the ultimate mediocre lance would be four Shadow Hawks.
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Empyrus

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #61 on: 17 February 2021, 15:14:24 »
So the ultimate mediocre lance would be four Shadow Hawks.
TBH, to me that would be a terrible lance.

Objectively, that would indeed be rather mediocre. Combining fire at different range brackets, they get decent but not stellar damage output, while their mobility is okay for their mass but not great.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #62 on: 17 February 2021, 15:20:05 »
Commando-2D
Hunchback-4G
Vindicator-1AA
Valkyrie-QF

If more time was spent on this, I sure I could create a more mediocre lance. I think this will suffice.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #63 on: 17 February 2021, 18:30:45 »
I'm not sure anything including an AC/20 could be characterized as truly "mediocre"...  ^-^

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #64 on: 17 February 2021, 19:01:11 »
Unless it goes up against a lance of Mechs with weapons that range greater than 9 hexes
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #65 on: 17 February 2021, 19:07:31 »
Even then, terrain counts for a lot.  And would require the rest of the lance to have insignificant firepower beyond 9 hexes.

Dies Irae

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #66 on: 17 February 2021, 19:18:18 »
Blindside the players with a spanking-new fresh-off-the-line machine still with factory smell in the cockpit and the plastic covers still on the pilot's seat.

Then make that machine a Merlin.

I love the things to death, but they're basically overweight Vindicators.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #67 on: 17 February 2021, 19:41:59 »
So are Thunderbolts, and nobody complains about them.
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Dies Irae

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #68 on: 17 February 2021, 20:25:26 »
So are Thunderbolts, and nobody complains about them.

Thunderbolts have the lustre of being in the original wave of releases.
Merlins are an oft forgotten construction example canonized into a record sheet.

Also, Vindicators are awesome.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #69 on: 17 February 2021, 20:28:19 »
Yes, yes they are!  :thumbsup:

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #70 on: 18 February 2021, 16:10:25 »
The Merlin suffers from terrible art that never fit in fit the originals.
The Chameleon suffers from the same. Its original art was pretty neat, its TRO3058 iteration is horrible.

EDIT Err, ok, the Chameleon also has terrible stats really. Or, well, it is functional but not really good.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #71 on: 18 February 2021, 18:33:50 »
The Chameleon is just a Phoenix Hawk that went overboard in the mess haul.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #72 on: 18 February 2021, 18:59:06 »
EDIT Err, ok, the Chameleon also has terrible stats really. Or, well, it is functional but not really good.

I like the quirkiness of the -4B, even though it's technically non-canon and overweight. It does have a canon RS!

TT
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #73 on: 19 February 2021, 15:49:32 »
VL-2T Vulcan
HOP-4C Hoplite
JM6-S JagerMech
CGR-1L Charger - yes, it's actually worse than the 1A1!
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #74 on: 19 February 2021, 17:36:09 »
More.or less, the list so far by votes. Single votes simply market listing the mech. The (+4) mean that someone suggested a whole lance of that particular mech.

Banshee
Charger 4
Goliath (+4)
Grasshopper
Quickdraw 6
Rifleman 3
Crusader
Jagermech 4
Ostsol

Shadow Hawk 5(+4)
Wolverine 2
Dervish 2
Kintaro
Scorpion
Hoplite

Enforcer 2
Centurion 2
Hunchback
Chameleon

Vindicator 3
Phoenix Hawk 3
Blackjack 2
Hatchetman

Clint 5
Whitworth 5
Vulcan 4
Cicada 3
Assassin

Panther 2
Jenner
Valkyrie 2
Fire Javelin
Urbanmech
Commando 3

Wasp 4
Stinger 3
Locust 2(+4)
Flea 2
Hornet

Heavy dominance of 40 ton mechs there

The winner seems to be
Quickdraw
Shadow hawk
Whitworth
Clint


Or one of the 20 tonner triad to substitute the whitworth or Clint. In any case there was some heavy competition for the spots. I like quite a few.of the designs myself :)

Cheers
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« Last Edit: 20 February 2021, 09:51:30 by Elmoth »

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #75 on: 19 February 2021, 18:24:47 »
I like quite a few.of the designs myself :)

There are several on that list that I find quite good to use.

Ruger
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #76 on: 19 February 2021, 18:46:38 »
CGR-1L Charger - yes, it's actually worse than the 1A1!

Yeah, and given that the 1A1 is bad, the 1L is aggressively bad, not mediocre.
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Failure16

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #77 on: 20 February 2021, 09:47:56 »
yeah, but its a good 'mook' 'Mech. I like to give them to FWL separatists that the CapCon is giving surreptitious support to. That and Avenging Angels.

I cannot see Fire Javelins being considered 'mediocre' by a long shot. Indeed, PXHs are genre-defining, as are CN9s and ENFs.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2021, 09:50:06 by Failure16 »
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #78 on: 02 March 2021, 01:03:00 »
If the standard 3SW lance is 1 Light 1 Medium 2 Heavies. (As of old days it was)

Davion
Wasp or Valkyrie
Centurion
Rifleman
Crusader

Something Faster
Locust
Wolverine
Rifleman
Quickdraw ( I actually think it is a terrible unit)

If you wanted a medium lance
Centurion
Trebuchet
Valkyrie
Shadow Hawk

These are all capable if unimpressive.

Ruger

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #79 on: 02 March 2021, 04:51:12 »
If the standard 3SW lance is 1 Light 1 Medium 2 Heavies. (As of old days it was)

If that was the case, then how would medium ‘Mechs outnumber the others in that time period?

 ???

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #80 on: 02 March 2021, 13:14:29 »
I know 2 Mediums and a Heavy was standard with either a Light or a rare Assault being the second norm.

If it was a recon, it was usually 2 Lights and 2 Mediums. Rarely 2 Heavies, unless it was all Heavy and a single Assault.

But mostly 1 Light, 1 Heavy you and 2 Mediums makes a ' standard ' lance.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #81 on: 02 March 2021, 13:16:51 »
1 light, 2 mediums, and a heavy was a standard medium lance back in the day, yeah

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #82 on: 02 March 2021, 13:38:36 »
Still is, in some parts.

Good rule of thumb was three 4/6, with either a speedster to back stab or something that could be an annoyance that distracts for the others to exploit.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #83 on: 04 March 2021, 23:19:01 »
BattleDroids considers a lance (the term 'standard' is not actually used in this specific context) to consist of "two light, one medium, and one heavy droid" (p.5).

BattleTech, 2nd Edition and Third Edition both consider a lance (again, as above, since it is nearly a reprint) to consist of "a light, a medium, and two heavy 'Mechs" (p. 26 and 52 respectively).
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #84 on: 09 August 2021, 23:26:12 »
Wanted to resurrect the thread because I was thinking about the quirks listed in the BattleMech Manual.

Although the rules recommend balancing out the negative quirks with positive quirks, I was thinking how fun it would be to play with the listed traits in the chart only. A sort of "hard-core" approach. And then it got me thinking about how this could affect our mediocre lances.

It is an approach that definitely makes some better; some worse.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #85 on: 10 August 2021, 02:31:26 »
Can it be the "seems medicore but turns out to be a terror"? lance?

Like 4 Vulcan 5Ts?  Everyones like HAH vulcans.. than you smack em with 4 meds after jumping 6 and have 12 HS and like 9 tons of armor and they realize this is no 2T hunka crap.. (we used to mod ours to drop half a ton of MG ammo for a second MG because more firepower is always welcome, kept the flamer just incase)
« Last Edit: 10 August 2021, 02:33:18 by winters_night »

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #86 on: 11 August 2021, 10:55:37 »
Can it be the "seems medicore but turns out to be a terror"? lance?

Like 4 Vulcan 5Ts?  Everyones like HAH vulcans.. than you smack em with 4 meds after jumping 6 and have 12 HS and like 9 tons of armor and they realize this is no 2T hunka crap.. (we used to mod ours to drop half a ton of MG ammo for a second MG because more firepower is always welcome, kept the flamer just incase)
Same effect as finding that those 4 Hermes II nuisances are -2M variants as they suddenly close at 7/11 speeds, and then find yourself eating 3 ML and MG spam from each.  Worse, they're still running cold after that, and eager to repeat their performance for you.

As for "mediocre" lances, several of the "mediocre" units on that list are anything but.  Seriously, who calls a GHR "mediocre"?  It's one of the nastiest in-fighters in the game.  The WLV has to be a mistake, it's one of the fabled "55 Ton Trio", even if it's not the preferred variant.  The WTH is fairly impressive for its tonnage, the only issue is that it's rather light.  The Fire Javelin is another powerful unit for its tonnage, and will eat most other Lights for breakfast.  The QKD isn't "bad", it's just about 5 tons overweight for what it does; it would be an excellent Medium 'Mech.  Those units don't deserve being on the list.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #87 on: 11 August 2021, 11:11:40 »
Just played around with the Quickdraw at 55 tons.  It saves about 500,000 C-Bills.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #88 on: 11 August 2021, 11:13:31 »
Just played around with the Quickdraw at 55 tons.  It saves about 500,000 C-Bills.

try 45 tons; just delete the rear lasers

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #89 on: 11 August 2021, 11:16:44 »
We should take this discussion to the design forum...

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #90 on: 17 August 2021, 12:06:26 »
My choice of a 'Mediocre' lance for a third succession war merc unit:

VND-1R
CN9-AH
RFL-3C
WTH-1

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #91 on: 17 August 2021, 13:46:10 »
That lance gets this song in my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMklAUapazI

Not exactly mediocre, not top notch either, but the kind that can pull an unexpected victory:  >:D

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #92 on: 23 August 2021, 14:09:59 »
Crusader, Thunderbolt, Shadow Hawk, Centurion. I call it boom-boom lance. I either blow you up or all that ammo goes KABOOM!
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #93 on: 23 August 2021, 14:43:14 »
In what universe are the Crusader and T-Bolt mediocre?
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #94 on: 23 August 2021, 14:48:57 »
In what universe are the Crusader and T-Bolt mediocre?
Anywhere your enemies like rolling TACs... ;)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #95 on: 23 August 2021, 14:51:12 »
The Crusader more than the T-Bolt, but SableKatten isn't wrong on that score.  Bombots be bombots...

Seriously, every single Stalker I've driven was aced by an ammo crit EARLY in the fight...  ::)

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #96 on: 23 August 2021, 15:00:11 »
In what universe are the Crusader and T-Bolt mediocre?
Crusader - I play with a couple of gamers, everyone has a “then she went up like a candle” story with a Crusader.
T-Bolt - “How hot do you want it”.  If your a mild man like me T-Bolts can be tricky.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #97 on: 23 August 2021, 15:32:40 »
If you play intro-tech for any length of time you ought to have plenty of "and then she went up like a candle" stories unless you stick with running Awesomes.  Ammo explosion deaths and overheating are both just facts of life with those mechs.  Doesn't make the Crusader or T-Bolt mediocre.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #98 on: 24 August 2021, 05:35:20 »
Personally I'm happy taking a Tbolt, thought I really want to play with floating crits if I do. The Crud however is not for me. ANY side torso crit kills my mech? No thanks!

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #99 on: 24 August 2021, 07:02:56 »
A Crud wouldn't be bad with the OG rules of no HS fitting in the engine...

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #100 on: 24 August 2021, 15:06:59 »
I love the THUD but EVERY TIME I PLAY IT IT GOES BOOOM. Its usually the MG ammo which is why I always swap to two flammers if given the option.

The thing is an every range beast but I cannot use it successfully because of the ammo. SRM, LRM, MG--gah
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #101 on: 24 August 2021, 15:16:47 »
I love the THUD but EVERY TIME I PLAY IT IT GOES BOOOM. Its usually the MG ammo which is why I always swap to two flammers if given the option.

The thing is an every range beast but I cannot use it successfully because of the ammo. SRM, LRM, MG--gah

Me too--CASE II may come in handy, unless your pilot turns to jelly because of the crit rolls.  Still haven't played a game with a new THUD featuring CASE II.
« Last Edit: 24 August 2021, 16:14:40 by MarauderD »

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #102 on: 24 August 2021, 17:04:18 »
Maybe I am weird, but back in the 90s when I played CBT I saw ONE or maybe TWO ammo explosions in like 30 games. The second does not count much because it was a Locust that was toast anyway, but we rolled anyway and it had the MG ammo explode.
Seems people have a large variance in this...

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #103 on: 24 August 2021, 21:32:52 »
Mechs in later eras tend to be less subject to ammo explosions due to a mixture of better crit packing and weapons that deal more damage being common (like gauss rifles).
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #104 on: 25 August 2021, 02:33:18 »
Maybe I am weird, but back in the 90s when I played CBT I saw ONE or maybe TWO ammo explosions in like 30 games. The second does not count much because it was a Locust that was toast anyway, but we rolled anyway and it had the MG ammo explode.
Seems people have a large variance in this...
Before engine-mounted heat sinks ammo explosions were less common, especially on mechs with only ammo in the side torsos.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #105 on: 25 August 2021, 04:56:18 »
Engine mounted heat sinks were already a thing in the '90s, though.

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #106 on: 25 August 2021, 06:21:21 »
Hmm.  Going to go with four designs with mixed reputations in-universe, but that aren’t necessarily actually bad, though not objectively good:

CGR-1A1 Charger
SCP-1N Scorpion
CLNT-2-3T Clint
STG-3R Stinger

It actually works well as a heavy recon lance that can hunt smaller recon ‘Mechs, but all of those ‘Mechs have a flaw that affects their reputation in-universe, and none of them are really optimal designs, instead leaning heavily towards bei lackluster.
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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #107 on: 25 August 2021, 07:34:08 »
My second try. A lance of common and bad designs. Not mediocre necessarily, but thisnos what the OP asked for.

So  going for extremely common mechs. No assaults even if some could be justified.

Wolverine 6R
Witworth
Clint
Wasp 1A


A really mediocre (reading: common) lance would be
Archer 2R
Wolverine 6R
Phoenix Hawk 1
Wasp 1A

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Re: The Mediocre Succession Wars Lance -- what would you run?
« Reply #108 on: 25 August 2021, 12:12:51 »
I keep hearing ammo booms, on a Thud no less?  Haven't you heard of ammo dumping before? Games a full two turns to complete. Stating at the end of a turn, dumping while movement phase, continues in the firing phase and then it ends after the last physicals are done... Hope you didn't get any back shots done to you!

The second turn was to throw you off... ^-^

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