The real difference between Dropshuttles and DropShips

[Frabby]

In another thread here Cray mentioned a minor detail on the sidelines that I had completely overlooked so far but which may be a missing puzzle piece:

Dropshuttle bays are designed to carry Dropshuttles not only through a jump but also during transiting the system under thrust!
Remember that primitive JumpShips were more akin to WarShips in that they would not hang back at the jump point but travel into the system. Dropshuttle bays are effectively just super-large fighter bays. Their content counts as part of the JumpShip, not a separate vessel. (The structure must be ridiculously over-engineered.)

Looking at it this way may serve to explainan an old rules conundrum, namely that Dropshuttle bays and KF boom hardpoints are treated as incompatible. The former can only dock Dropshuttles for a jump, the latter only DropShips when for all we know about KF physics the tech should be the same.
In newer rulebooks it’s even said that DropShips are apparently backwards compatible after all, adding to the confusion: Dropshuttle bays can supposedly carry DropShips of up to 5,000 tons too.

Be confused no more.
It seems the core of the matter is that DropShips are indeed backwards compatible with regards to their docking collar, and can be carried through a jump in a Dropshuttle bay after all (provided they are small enough, ie. under 5,000 tons); but unlike Dropshuttles their structure and docking adapters are not built to be carried under thrust during transit like Dropshuttles. So the problem isn’t so much the KF coupling but rather the rest of the structure.

That would also explain how existing Dropshuttle designs could be remade into DropShips so easily, and how the more primitive Dropshuttle technology went essentially extinct in such a short timeframe: The existing Dropshuttle fleets didn’t have to be replaced and new fleets built up from the ground up, they could be retrofitted.
Solves a number of factchecking errors on the sidelines where published DropShip stats predate the introduction of the KF boom collar/hardpoint, or where Dropshuttles exceed their hard mass limit of 5,000 tons.

[Hellraiser]

One would assume the problem w/ standard dropship docking clamps v/s bays is the direction they are mounted in.

It's clear why DropShips can't be attached to a warship in the artwork.
Most every collar I've seen in Art is mounted along the spine, so when under thrust it's like traveling sideways aboard the DS which would cause all sorts of problems when gravity is now the "wall" & the clamps are trying to hold furniture down that is strapped to the roof, so to speak.

A Drop-Shuttle on the other hand doesn't have to mount in that direction & can easily be designed to have an internal facing where down is towards the engines & it maneuvers in at 0-g & docks on the bay "floor" like the Falcon being pulled into the Death Star.

A Drop-Shuttle of 5KT setting on the structure isn't any different than 5KT of cargo on the same floor.  Or 50 Mackies?  Right?

[Daryk]

The Scout, at least, gets an exception for that I think... ;)

[Hellraiser]

The Scout, at least, gets an exception for that I think... ;)

How come?

[Daryk]

The fluff long described it as being able to maneuver with a docked ship.

[Frabby]

The Scout, at least, gets an exception for that I think... ;)

But it kinda reinforces my point. The fluff makes it clear that DropShips can only be carried under zero gravity or microgravity (station keeping thrust). Only the Scout is fluffed to be an exception, featuring a reinforced hardpoint that can sustain 0.1 g of thrust (0.2 thrust points under game rules, ie. effectively 0) with a DropShip attached, provided it is a relatively small DropShip of no more than 25,000 tons.

[Hellraiser]

Cool, I don't even recall that in the fluff.

Just that the Scout itself had no Grav Deck so they had to use the SK-Drive to simulate a small amount of artificial gravity for the JS Crew.

I would actually assume that given how small the amount of gravity created by SK drives that most ships could, in theory, maneuver w/ DS attached at that rate.

The big problem would be a Warship w/ 1G+ thrust rates.

[Maingunnery]

Most every collar I've seen in Art is mounted along the spine, so when under thrust it's like traveling sideways aboard the DS which would cause all sorts of problems when gravity is now the "wall" & the clamps are trying to hold furniture down that is strapped to the roof, so to speak.

The primary problem would be that the collar would break from going way beyond station-keeping thrust, the internal arrangement should not be a big problem. The reason for this is that all BT space vessels can decelerate and make turns, so any surface might become a "floor" without any warning. So all transport bays would need to rapidly secure their content (including mech-limbs), personnel should always fixate any equipment (magnetically or by wire), limited corridor dimensions (to prevent long falls), many hand-holds in reach, and deployable safety nets around gantries to prevent accidents.   

[Daryk]

The Scout deck plans I started working on years ago (and lost on a thumb drive) oriented the docking collar such that the DropShip was pointed in the same direction as the JumpShip...

[Hellraiser]

That really doesn't look any different than any other docking collar to me & certainly not oriented towards the nose.
But maybe its a bit "deeper" into the hull based on the black circle there & as such, it's not quite so "hang on by fingernails" feel when under station keeping thrust?

[Hellraiser]

The reason for this is that all BT space vessels can decelerate and make turns, so any surface might become a "floor" without any warning.

You lost me.
Dropship (Warships) decelerate by cutting thrust, flipping over, & "accelerating" "away" from the target.
You shouldn't have any "wall is floor" scenarios till you enter atmosphere which is what the Avenger fluff covers as its one of the few Aerodyne DS that doesn't have a 2nd Transit drive & is always flying like a fighter/aerodyne instead of the way they fluff a Leopard DS.

[Daryk]

I took the "door" looking part from DS&JS and folded it out as a "floor".

[Maingunnery]

You lost me.
Dropship (Warships) decelerate by cutting thrust, flipping over, & "accelerating" "away" from the target.
You shouldn't have any "wall is floor" scenarios till you enter atmosphere which is what the Avenger fluff covers as its one of the few Aerodyne DS that doesn't have a 2nd Transit drive & is always flying like a fighter/aerodyne instead of the way they fluff a Leopard DS.

Flipping over in space doesn't happen by magic, it requires substantial auxiliary thrusters or redirecting thrust. Also decelerating in space does not require flipping over, that is just one way to decelerate. Also rolling would also create some noticeable centrifugal forces.   
So if anything is not secure then you can easily get injuries or even death. Dropships without the earlier noted measures are just deathtraps.

[Hellraiser]

Agreed that you need safety measures.  I wasn't disputing that.

That said, Not sure sure how much gravity is created when they flip.
I seem to recall one of the books years ago talking about a transit & noting that they announced maneuvers like that ahead of time, much like a warning countdown to KF-Jump.
People strapped into G-Couches for any actual maneuvers IIRC & the time that a flip occurred actually had the thrusters being off for several minutes or an hour.
IE.  It wasn't some sudden G-Forces wrenching highspeed turn in a sports car or jet fighter.
More like,  We will be loosing gravity at Noon Ship Time today, in 3 hours, then again, at 1 hour, & 15 minutes prior, etc etc...
Then a period of 0-G (limited-G) while the ship "flips", I forget what source but I swear I read this was like 30 minutes or something.
And finally, we will return to gravity in X-Minutes.   
IE, just like any Airliner putting on the seatbelts sign when they see a storm ahead or a cruise ship casting off from dock.
It's organized, planned for, & done slowly w/ plenty of warning to store all those knives/wrenches when they apply maneuver jets at .05-G to spin or whatever.

[AlphaMirage]

I think it was in the fluff for Strategic Ops. Basically everything is always strapped down or in lockers aboard a space ship because acceleration and hasty maneuvers could damage anything and that thing could be vital.

When turnover happens its always coordinated well in advance and they probably burn the maneuvering thrusters (or adjust the tilt of the thrust cone) for a little while to get that initial rotation going. Then they have a party and by the time the party is over they are in or near the new correct orientation and everything goes back to 'normal' just in the opposite direction.

[glitterboy2098]

i doubt that they run the thrusters hard enough to generate significant g forces, even from centripital force. they probably space it out over several hours, for safety. maybe even a full day, for the warships. then they probably take even more time fine tuning the orientation to ensure they stay on the right course while burning for the decel.

[Maingunnery]

i doubt that they run the thrusters hard enough to generate significant g forces, even from centripital force. they probably space it out over several hours, for safety. maybe even a full day, for the warships. then they probably take even more time fine tuning the orientation to ensure they stay on the right course while burning for the decel.

Crews can take their time when nothing happens. But that is a luxury that can't be guaranteed as a emergency or combat can always suddenly happen. If the rules are anything close to correct then there are significant forces in various directions.
The maneuverability and sizes of some vessels in Battletech are pretty extreme for a setting without gravity/momentum technology.

[Daryk]

Hellraiser: I think mention was made of a "Maneuvering alarm" for that purpose.

[Hellraiser]

Aye.

Vessels going into Combat should have plenty of warning (in theory) as they approach a target that everyone is buckled into a G-Couch & loose objects have long been put away.  Sensors should tell them if something is approaching across millions of miles of black space.

Vessels on casual merchant transport routes have plenty of warning for any maneuvers they do as part of their trip in system, insert Airline Seatbelts sign & Love Boat cast off scenes here.

Which basically leaves us with last second "Emergency/Surprise" Scenarios which shouldn't be an every day kind of thing.

[Maingunnery]

Aye.

Vessels going into Combat should have plenty of warning (in theory) as they approach a target that everyone is buckled into a G-Couch & loose objects have long been put away.  Sensors should tell them if something is approaching across millions of miles of black space.

Vessels on casual merchant transport routes have plenty of warning for any maneuvers they do as part of their trip in system, insert Airline Seatbelts sign & Love Boat cast off scenes here.

Which basically leaves us with last second "Emergency/Surprise" Scenarios which shouldn't be an every day kind of thing.

By that logic one could stop using seatbelts in cars, one should not assume that things go right, one should assume that the unforeseen can happen. Heck it could be something as basic as a crewmember pressing the wrong button or inputting the wrong value.

[Hellraiser]

By that logic one could stop using seatbelts in cars, one should not assume that things go right, one should assume that the unforeseen can happen. Heck it could be something as basic as a crewmember pressing the wrong button or inputting the wrong value.

I feel like your still arguing for safety standards & we've already stated that YES those should/do exist, Repeatedly. 

But also stated that needing them is going to be very rare.

This isn't a car that is traveling w/ a million other cars at all hours of the day on a crowded road in rush hour hooking a right hand turn at 25mph or even swerving in & out of lanes on the freeway during the entire commute.