Author Topic: Clan Battle Armor Structure  (Read 4211 times)

Maelwys

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Clan Battle Armor Structure
« on: 26 March 2015, 13:20:18 »
Does anyone else find it sort of odd that Clan structure on Battle armor weighs about 50% more than IS structure, but you don't really get anything for that under TW rules? Its fluffed as being Harjel for the suit, which we've seen in fluff, but that doesn't really translate over to

I've always thought it strange, but the recent release of the Surat suit kind of brought it back to the forefront, so I figured I'd ask around.

Under ATOW, you do (sometimes) get extra points to your armor rating for having Clan structure...atleast I assume it does. Reading it quickly, for all I know its Clan armor that determines if you use the Clan armor table or not.

I don't know StratOps rules well enough to know if having Harjel in the suits counts towards boarding actions or something.

So. Should it? Am I missing anything under TW or TO play? Should it be reworked to give a bonus or something so its not as much of a mass sink?

wellspring

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #1 on: 26 March 2015, 13:48:24 »
My recollection is that the BA construction rules were adapted from a fan-made system that retroactively accounted for the designs already released. So some hacks like the one you mention were made for backward compatibility.

Harjel does help alot at the strategic level, especially with breaching rules and post-battle recovery of "destroyed" troopers.

Kojak

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #2 on: 26 March 2015, 14:36:13 »
Personally, I've always been of the opinion that Clan battlesuits should at least get a TacOps-style optional rule vis-a-vis their harjel, wherein they recover one point of armor per turn to a max of half their original armor load, rounding up.


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sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #3 on: 26 March 2015, 17:43:17 »
In addition to the Harjel, a Clan chassis gets superior med systems in ATOW (ATOWC p57) and also allows suits with torso-mounted missiles to jump and make Anti-Mech attacks without having to jettison the launcher first.

In ATOW play, Harjel allows you to ignore the effects of an armor breach when operating in hostile environments (ATOWC p61).

In TO, the rules aren't quite so generous as ATOWC, with Harjel only giving a greater chance of surviving a breach in tainted/toxic atmospheres (TO p56), although Harjel does prevent a suit from being automatically destroyed if it suffers damage while underwater (TO p109).

In SO, the Harjel/advanced med system combination helps reduce the actual number of casualties under the Mostly Dead vs Truly Dead rules (SO p176).

Maelwys

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #4 on: 27 March 2015, 04:53:07 »
I had forgotten that they gain the ability to jump with missiles. I suppose that's a good reason for the extra weight, though I wonder if we might see more optimized designs later on, since mixed tech is becoming more common.

I'll have to check out ATOWC more closely.

LastChanceCav

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #5 on: 27 March 2015, 11:23:38 »
The Oni is a great example of the horrors you can unleash when you combine lighter IS chassis with superior clan armor.

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sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #6 on: 27 March 2015, 14:43:22 »
I wonder if we might see more optimized designs later on, since mixed tech is becoming more common.

The issue of mixed tech battle armor is a thorny subject, often prone to arguments.

It's patently obvious that for some designs - a non-missile light/medium or a non-jumping heavy/assault, for example - there's little benefit to use a Clan chassis for most players. Just how often will your scenarios take place underwater or in a hostile atmosphere? And outside of a campaign, do players really care how many of their battle armor troops are really dead rather than just destroyed in game terms. Some players see this and draw the conclusion that a mixed tech suit with an IS chassis is all positives with no negatives, viewing the situation as an exploit. Others see it as just good design. Others may like or dislike the idea, but prefer to follow canon's lead. Others have no idea what battle armor is and ask if there will be cake. There is no cake, there is only pie.

Apart from the prospect of a lighter chassis, there's not really much IS battlesuit technology that's of any benefit to the Clans, and even the chassis seems of little interest to them. Clan designers will be well aware that adding a Harjel system makes a battlesuit chassis heavier, but they've chosen to do so for centuries. The Clans obviously value their frontline armored infantry and have apparently judged through their centuries of battle armor experience that Harjel is of greater benefit to their survival than instead adding extra kilos of armor or weapons. As players, we see units in a completely different light to how they would be viewed in universe: they're not just playing pieces that fight to destruction to achieve victory at any cost in this evening's game session, but instead men and women that represent years of training and investment, and living to fight another day can be viewed more important than a Pyrrhic victory. Even crazies like the Ice Hellions have decided that Harjel is a good thing.

That might change for the Invasion Clans, with the Dominion introducing the Hybrid Rogue Bear and the Wraith, for example, although both are apparently intended for local IS troops rather than trueborn warriors, so even this shouldn't be taken as confirmation.

So it's the IS that seems likely to gain the most from mixed tech. The IS factions have a long history of valuing metal over meat, so removing guns and armor to reduce the odds of a battlesuit trooper choking to death if their suit is breached is not likely to gain much favor. The IS view is that you can always shove another warm body into the suit after hosing out the mess and plugging the holes. If they're lucky, the new trooper will get some training first and might even have the correct gender attachment for the suit's waste plumbing. Notably only the GD Strike (Harjel) opts for a Clan chassis and that's because of an almost unique set of circumstances, in game and out.

This means that Clan battle armor is under threat of becoming qualitatively inferior when facing its future IS brethren, which may not be important for some players, even being viewed as desired, but for other players it's not a good prospect. For now, canon designs have held back somewhat, so we see IS suits with Clan weapons plus IS armor (eg. Fenrir II), or Clan armor plus IS weapons or poor Clan weapons (eg. Oni). That's not to say that we won't ever see a canon suit with an IS chassis, Clan armor and good quality Clan weapons all combined, however, just like we don't always get optimal canon Mechs, ASFs or tanks, in my opinion I don't think we should expect such battlesuits to become common, at least not without some other restriction. Even with battle armor designs combining all three features, there's always other design choices that can limit their impact, and fluff can always play a part, with a design perhaps noted as unique, for example.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #7 on: 27 March 2015, 19:25:45 »
I just ignore the IS chassis/clan armor designs. IMHO a clan chassis (with all the extra protection it affords the pilot) is required for clan armor. If you put clan armor on an IS chassis you get IS-tech levels of armor points.

That is, I don't give a **** what canon says, I won't play with designs that don't make sense!

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #8 on: 16 April 2015, 04:21:58 »
 . . . but you have no problem with Clan FF armor on IS mechs being more effective?
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ijewett

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #9 on: 22 April 2015, 18:15:31 »
At some point for the story to move forward everyone will use the best Tech regardless of where it is from and newer better tech will become available.

SCC

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #10 on: 22 April 2015, 20:28:46 »
In addition to the Harjel, a Clan chassis gets superior med systems in ATOW (ATOWC p57) and also allows suits with torso-mounted missiles to jump and make Anti-Mech attacks without having to jettison the launcher first.
I wouldn't be too sure about that, this seems to be more a result of superoid design then actual mass, if a Clan suit is made with a CLAN Structure that light I'd still allow it to do that stuff without dropping the missiles

Sabelkatten

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #11 on: 23 April 2015, 10:22:18 »
. . . but you have no problem with Clan FF armor on IS mechs being more effective?
Why would I? Clan and IS mechs use the same structure. Not to mention that IS HFF armor is even more (weight) effective than clan FF. But iff clan mechs had to use reinforced structure to mount clantech armor but IS mechs could do it while using ES structure, then I'd have a problem with it!

sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #12 on: 26 April 2015, 23:07:11 »
I wouldn't be too sure about that, this seems to be more a result of superoid design then actual mass, if a Clan suit is made with a CLAN Structure that light I'd still allow it to do that stuff without dropping the missiles

Sure, you could house rule that.

SCC

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2015, 17:01:21 »
Well we know that the Clans can actually build suits with Structure that light, and given that the rules say that Spheroid suits suffer that problem

sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2015, 18:39:42 »
No, we can assume that the Clans can build such a chassis, but we don't have proof, because we have no canon example of a combat suit with a Clan or Mixed Tech (Clan) tech base that was built by a Clan but lacks Harjel.

Of course, it's an extremely safe assumption that they could do it, but quite simply the Clans don't believe in building combat suits without Harjel, so no such Clan chassis exists outside of house rules. Maybe one day that will change, but not yet.

Sid

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #15 on: 28 April 2015, 19:28:26 »
I had forgotten that they gain the ability to jump with missiles. I suppose that's a good reason for the extra weight, though I wonder if we might see more optimized designs later on, since mixed tech is becoming more common.

I'll have to check out ATOWC more closely.

I'm not sure if it carried over from MW3rd to ATOW, but it was certainly worth it in that version.  It's just another case of scales, where some things get lost as you abstract things for gameplay.

I'm pretty sure ATOW under the advanced rules is like MW3rd in that when shot, the armour either penetrates the armour and deals damage to the player, or is stopped by the armour.  It's very different from the table top where you cross out boxes for each damage point.

For example, if you're hit in the chest with an assault rifle, your vest either stops the bullet (and you suffer fatigue/get stunned) or it penetrates and punctures your lung sort of thing (fatigue,stun, bleeding, limited movement, unconciousness checks etc.  Basically death).  Battle Armour, at least in MW3rd was the same way.  AC10s, PPCs, or anything bigger (Gauss Rifles...) had enough penetrative potential that no battle Armour (Kazazuchi for example) could stop the round.  Regular PPCs vaporize Kazazuchis in one shot.

Where things get interesting (and to bring this long winded explanation back on track) was when a weapon hit deals just enough damage to match the armour rating (Technically penetrating) or higher.  A .45 handgun that penetrates a vest might only result in a minor flesh wound, or cracked rib, because most of the force was absorbed by the vest.  When that happens, the armour degrades in effectiveness.  The next .45 handgun hit will have an easier time penetrating.  And the round following yet another successful penetration.  Depending on the weapons and armour in question, it's only a matter of time before normal dice rolls are treating the armour like tissue paper (assuming the wearer isn't dead already).

Harjel, as you might have surmised, prevents that degradation entirely.  An I.S Medium laser (5 Penetration) has a harder time penetrating a Kanazuchi (9 armour) than a Clan Elemental (7 I think?), but once it does, the Kanazuchi will drop to 8, and then 7...and then 6.  At 5 it does nothing to prevent the laser (from what I remember).  The Clan Elemental by contrast will always remain at 7, so you kill the Elemental through a thousand paper cuts while the Kazazuchi is just a matter of time before the armour drops low enough that you burn/explode the wearer's organs.

In theory, enough assault rifle or SAW rounds from an infantry platoon will eventually wear down any I.S suit until it's tissue paper and you can kill the wearer as if he isn't wearing anything.  Clan armour by contrast, can laugh manically as bullets rain down on them because the Harjel will keep filling the little cracks lucky hits produce in their armour.

I remember things have changed in ATOW though, and most of this is from memory so I'll have to check again to confirm that this is how things work.

I do know though that in MW3rd, Harjel was very much worth the extra weight.     


 
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truetanker

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #16 on: 30 April 2015, 20:00:16 »
No, we can assume that the Clans can build such a chassis, but we don't have proof, because we have no canon example of a combat suit with a Clan or Mixed Tech (Clan) tech base that was built by a Clan but lacks Harjel.

Of course, it's an extremely safe assumption that they could do it, but quite simply the Clans don't believe in building combat suits without Harjel, so no such Clan chassis exists outside of house rules. Maybe one day that will change, but not yet.

What about the Resgate?

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sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #17 on: 30 April 2015, 22:57:11 »
The Resgate isn't a combat suit and it comes with Harjel, so not sure what you're asking about.

EDIT: I suppose you could be referring to the recent Resgate variants which do have a combat role, but they still have Harjel, so the point still stands.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2015, 23:34:30 by sillybrit »

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #18 on: 25 June 2015, 00:28:32 »
The Techmanual says the battle armour structure includes the weight of the trooper (just a few paragraphs before the HarJel thing).

Since we know that elementals are a foot taller and broader than the average normal human soldier at least and we know the clans build all combat suits for that phenotype only, I've never had any problems with the Clan battle suit structure being heavier (needs more metal to go around that trooper, too).

sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #19 on: 25 June 2015, 08:42:42 »
While that would perhaps present an ideal explanation, that's just fluff that fails to account for suits like the Void (Nova Cat) that uses an Inner Sphere chassis but is operated by Clan Nova Cat Elementals, nor are there any size restrictions on Elementals operating Inner Sphere suits of any type, even in ATOW.

Also bear in mind that the Inner Sphere was long fluffed as favoring putting larger recruits in battle armor, so the difference would be minimized anyway. Pre-ATOW RPG rules actually had increased body/strength stats as a requirement for battlesuit operation although now they're only a prerequisite for certain discounted training packages in ATOW.

JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #20 on: 25 June 2015, 22:13:37 »
And we have Kai fighting in an elemental suit, yes.

Between Harjel and designing the suit to comfortably fit the intended target phenotype (while being able to accommodate a range either way, abeit awkwardly) that's enough explanation for me.

And even if the IS is hiring bigger BA pilots than average, where are they going to find a large supply of 7ft bodybuilders willing to serve in frontline combat units they'd need to match the elementals?
Without the genetic enhancements the clans use that probably just means you've got a higher than average spread of short sightedness, cardiovascular problems and posture issues in your units.

Acolyte

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #21 on: 25 June 2015, 22:52:13 »
Try high G worlds. The AToW modifications for them are very close (though not quite there) to the Elemental Phenotype.

Any High G world that was settled before or during the Star League would probably have the genetic enhancements you're looking for.

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JenniferinaMAD

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #22 on: 26 June 2015, 00:49:19 »
True, I keep forgetting that those adaptations exist. If we put Ogryns into power armour, can we also put ratlings into jet cockpits?  O:-)

imperator

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #23 on: 26 June 2015, 06:26:54 »
Nah. It turns into a Protomech!!!
Their is no problem Jump Jets and an assault class auto-cannon can't handle.

sillybrit

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Re: Clan Battle Armor Structure
« Reply #24 on: 26 June 2015, 08:10:03 »
Re the number of recruits, the size of the battle armor forces across the Inner Sphere is absolutely tiny compared to the population. There's probably more potential candidates than there are suits, and many of the states have mandatory service or strong cultural drives to encourage service to help the militaries get the personnel they need.

 

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