BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Inner Sphere => Topic started by: StCptMara on 03 February 2011, 01:39:55
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In another thread, a poster brought out that his players wanted to use the WoB Celestials not
because of any of the reasons we might think...but because they actually used the stuff that the
IS had for their chassis that cannot be refitted in: TSM, Light Engines, Compact or Heavy Duty Gyros,
even a Compact engine.
What makes this stand out to me is that, the Inner Sphere has not been putting further development into
OmniMechs. The Celestials stood out to a group of players because, really, they were the 3rd Generation IS
OmniMechs. Where are the other 3rd Generation OmniMechs? No-where. We see the IS producing its second
generation of Omni-fighters, and even its 3rd Generation of Omni Vehicles now, and the 1st Generation Omni
Support-Vehicle...but it seems like OmniMechs in the Inner Sphere have become a developmental dead-end.
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i think it's more the whole point of omnimechs really. why keep building more new omni designs when the existing omnis are able to fill so many roles as-is? there's really very little reason to go back every couple of years and rebuild something as complicated and an omnimech when you can simply market a new weaposn configuration instead.
also, i think there was some kinda production problem with the factories tooled for producing them that hampered the development chances on new omni designs in the sphere...
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If and when RS:3067 unabridged is released, we might actually get to see omnified versions of the Argus and Thanatos.
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It's a bloody damn shame, that's what it is. I like several of the Omnis (especially the Avatar and the look of the Owens) and I'd really like some more.
But, if they all used Omnis all of a sudden, you wouldn't have enough material for new TROs.
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If and when RS:3067 unabridged is released, we might actually get to see omnified versions of the Argus and Thanatos.
OH Yes Please I can but live in hope [rockon].
Dave.
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It's a bloody damn shame, that's what it is. I like several of the Omnis (especially the Avatar and the look of the Owens) and I'd really like some more.
But, if they all used Omnis all of a sudden, you wouldn't have enough material for new TROs.
Not really.
You see, the Inner Sphere made its first Generation Omni's, some(the Raptor, the Black Hawk KU, the Avatar, the Sunder) were pretty good. However, they also showed the uncertainty of the IS using the technologies. Fixed systems because the IS wanted
something it "knew would work"(the Avatar's mediums) or because they did not understand the idea of not locking something
into a single role(the Owens EW equipment).
From the lessons learned in these, we got the second generation, one per House(except Kurita), Omnis. These improved upon,
and, really, were the first truly mature OmniMechs. Each one demonstrated something of an improvement. The Perseus showed
that one could make a non-omni design Omni, in fact, while the Men Shen was a much better recon platform then the Owens, and
a better combat platform then the Strider. The Hauptman was the the Sunder-Killer for the title of the "best Inner Sphere Assault
Omni", and the Templar proved a well laid out machine for using all the new Davion toys.
And that is where the Inner Sphere stopped. The Word of Blake developed their Celestials, and used things that the rest of the Inner
Sphere hadn't, because it had not been developed yet. However, even with the Celestials using things like light fusion engines, advanced gyros, and even TSM, they failed to fully push the envelope. Why not a Stealth Armoured OmniMech? How about something using Heavy Ferro Fibrous? What about an advanced tech light or heavy OmniMech? What about potential upgrades to the original
1st Generation Omnis? Why did the IS STOP developing this technology for 'mechs, but focus it for vehicles? The Inner Sphere, now, has more OmniVehicles then the Clans....but, yet, each house(except Kurita) has only 1 OmniMech to call its own. Why has Kurita not
developed a new OmniMech, in fact?
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it seems like OmniMechs in the Inner Sphere have become a developmental dead-end.
Snip!
lets keep in mind something rather important. the Inner Sphere is still new to the whole idea of the omni-chassis. be it mech, aerofighter, vehicle, suport vehicle, heads of state, or even the toaster on the back of the kitchen counter.
now ask yourself this. how long exactly did it take the Clans to develop their 2nd generation Omnimechs? Areo Fighters might progress faster mostly because they have a faster genesis from drawing board to prototype to production. the same can be said for vehicles. but not so for mechs. mech take thought. they take time to prove what a design's faults and shortcomings are. they take time to prove where and when they perform best. then there is the tried and true.. the inner sphere just likes it's one off designs a little too much.
also, keep in mind that the entire reason omni-chasis exisit is because the clans had limited resources and needed to make the most out of everything they had. not the same for the inner sphere.
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why keep building more new omni designs when the existing omnis are able to fill so many roles as-is? there's really very little reason to go back every couple of years and rebuild something as complicated and an omnimech when you can simply market a new weaposn configuration instead.
Snip!
personaly i think the Innersphere as far as it omnimechs go are still in the 'we haven't yet found a role these mechs can't perform in that a one-off design can't do better' stage of the production. with the exception of the wobble celestials howmany configurations are there for each of the inner sphere omni's? pretty sure they are up to the G's on most configuration designations and might even be past that on some. that is alot of configurations.
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If and when RS:3067 unabridged is released, we might actually get to see omnified versions of the Argus and Thanatos.
do not forgetthe Chimera also. .. if memory serves, it was also ment to be an omni-mech but failed during it's proto-typing as the thanotos did.
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In the Hauptmann's defense, I think adding anything except for maybe a heavy-duty gyro kind of defeats the purpose of the design.
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In the Hauptmann's defense, I think adding anything except for maybe a heavy-duty gyro kind of defeats the purpose of the design.
I can agree there...the Hauptmann is the Inner Sphere's Dire Wolf: The premier Assault OmniMech.
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Not really.
Okay, apparently my thinking was too shallow. I will rectify this.
Why has Kurita not
developed a new OmniMech, in fact?
Good question. I think a reworked Dragon would be a good base, myself. Plus, instant prestige.
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In previous discussions on this topic, wasn't the answer usually "Look at the canon IS people who have omnis. What did they do with them? They made one configuration they liked and used it in every battle. So if that mindset is extrapolated to the majority of IS mechwarriors, what's the point of omni's over standard battlemechs that have been customized or field refitted?'
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I think a big reason for the lack of omnimechs is all the wars that erupted. Following Operation Bulldog and Serpent when the Inner Sphere for the first time really used their own omnimechs, we get the FedCom civil war. And many TRO entries for mechs that enter production in that period is that they were intended as Omnis, but the increased cost prohibited the governments from picking them up as such.
Totally forgetting the fact for a second that turning a mech into an omnimech is less expensive than turning a standard engine into an XL. I think we can assume it more than likely had to do with factory retooling being needed to produce omnimechs that made governments decide not, and instead produce as many machines as they possibly could in as short a time as possible.
And what happens after the FedCom Civil War? We get the Jihad, yet more conflict in which many factories actually get damaged or destroyed. Making it even more difficult to try and start producing omnimechs.
Following the Jihad was of course the right time to start retooling factories to be capable of making omnimechs, but with Stone's plans and most of the Inner Sphere getting on board and moving into more peacetime focused economy, that opportunity was wasted.
Getting to the 3130s everything is possible of course, though I imagine most factions favouring for continued production over retooling yet again.
Now as to why fighters and vehicles are being turned onto omnitech and mechs are not. One could argue that it is perhaps a lot easier for fighters and vehicles to be turned into omnitech, they have far less locations that need to be turned omni-capable. We also know that at least in the case of the former FedCom worlds that the reason why they did produce omni-vehicles despite calling omnimechs too expensive, was because vehicles had a budget separate of that for mech acquisition.
Anyway looking back to the future. I hope that every faction starts producing an omnimech of their own for every weight class.
I also wonder how the rest view the idea of turning the classic faction designs like the FedSun's Enforcer and the CapCon's Vindicator into omnimechs, much like how the Perseus is an omni version of the Orion.
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In previous discussions on this topic, wasn't the answer usually "Look at the canon IS people who have omnis. What did they do with them? They made one configuration they liked and used it in every battle. So if that mindset is extrapolated to the majority of IS mechwarriors, what's the point of omni's over standard battlemechs that have been customized or field refitted?'
this is one of the reasons i feel that inner sphere Omni-mechs are not going to get past their 'we are still feeling these machines out' stage. ... to many mechwarriors go with a given configuration and stick with it because they aren't used to the freedoms an Omni Chassis grants.
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I think it is actually more because each Inner Sphere Lance/Company (sometimes even Battalion) is set up for a specific kind of battlefield role. So when the Scout lance gets a Raptor, guess what they will set it up for?
The Clans, however, have fewer organisational units and the delineation in units is more along lines of speed than expected role.
In the end, the benefit for the Clans is being able to rapidly configure not just a single machine but entire Stars, Trinaries, and Clusters to fit the tactics they want to use. The Inner Sphere is approaching it from the opposite direction, so the benefit for them is being able to deploy a base chassis across multiple units.
Unfortunately, when you're doing that you may as well just run off variants on an existing or new standard 'Mech.
From an OOC perspective, it would be sensible for militaries to centralise around a fast (6/9+) light Omni, a standard (5/8) medium Omni, and standard (4/6 and 3/5 respectively) Heavy and Assault Omnis, as these can then handle the bulk of the roles standard 'Mechs in those classes are tasked with. The chassis can then be configured as appropriate to the unit in question, with the remainder of forces being standard 'Mechs that are built as real specialists.
In character, there is a lot of inertia, in addition to the above reasons, that they never caught on.
As for second-generation Draconis Combine OmniMechs, the storyline focused almost exclusively on the Federated Commonwealth during the 3050-3067 era under FASA and FanPro. There was only one TR after 3060, and it was basically TR: FedCom Civil War With Hints For The Jihad And We're Reprinting The Field Manual Designs Here Too. The next TR is in the chaos of the Jihad, and as noted everyone is scrambling to stay afloat, with varying degrees of success.
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I've oft considered that a Stealth Armour Omnimech would be counter-intuitive to the whole concept. While Stealth Armour is effective no questions asked, it's not for every battlefield role, something that runs counter to an Omnimech design. A Stealth Omni could do some things well, but would either end up beign shoe-horned int ocertain roles or carrying around armour that was worthless in others.
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lets keep in mind something rather important. the Inner Sphere is still new to the whole idea of the omni-chassis. be it mech, aerofighter, vehicle, suport vehicle, heads of state, or even the toaster on the back of the kitchen counter.
Of course, the Clans went pretty dead-end, too. They had a great idea (the omnimech: fill many roles with a few designs), but then never used it. Instead, they kept making new designs. When they need a specialist role in a star, they don't reconfigure an existing omni. Instead, they give a warrior a different omni and build their stars and binaries and trinaries out of many, many different designs.
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The Avatar's medium lasers are stated in TRO3058U as being fixed there because of an unresolved fire control glitch. Fortunately, it's a very useful couple of weapons to have there, so most people don't really mind, but this isn't something the IS did deliberately for reliability.
Part of the reason the IS hasn't gone to OmniMechs is the constant need for more 'Mechs. The Omnis were frequently routed to elite (or loyal, particularly in the Templar's case) formations and then frequently chewed up as those formations got pounded on. The factories have been hit in a lot of cases. There simply hasn't been time to produce them in the numbers necessary. Beyond that, Omni factories are harder to establish, so once the Jihad hit and it was "I need factories now!" time, they wouldn't have had the priority assigned to normal BattleMech factories. They aren't necessarily a dead end but the situation hasn't been amenable to their establishment in the 'Mech ecosystem as it were.
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Thanks StCptMara, I'm really happy to see a thread on this topic without the arguments that got mine locked.
I've been giving this some thought lately as well as chatting with the players in my group and I think I'm beginning to feel their frustration. Omnis are supposedly the next step in mech design, and they give players a chance to field custom configs without building a whole new mech. Yet the IS, for all of its innovations has yet to show any updated Omni Mechs beyond the (apparently verboten) Celestials.
I would love to see Omni versions of some of the Phoenix designs. The venerable Marauder has numerous variants; an Omni version would make a lot of sense IMHO. If not the Marauder then either the Thunderbolt or a 70 tonner that can act as a Warhammer or Archer without the delicate XL engine of the Avatar.
I think what makes the Celestials cool is the fact that many use structural components that the Clans don't get such as TSM and advanced gyros. Most IS structural components have an "also ran" feeling to them; sure you can have XL engines and Endo Steel like the Clans, but they're so bulky or fragile that most Omnis start to have a tough go of it. TSM can give IS Omnis a serious edge (with some serious drawbacks) and advanced gyros can make a lot of sense depending on application (XL for light mechs, Heavy Duty for heavies etc.) and allow IS Omnis to be effective and unique.
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From an out of character perspective, Omni's were a pretty dumb idea to begin with. FASA/Catalyst/whoever has the license needs to sell TROs, and with Omnis, you don't need to built new 'mechs. Frankly, I think it would have been much cooler and more logical to give the Clans unique armor and guns, like stealth armor and plasma cannons.
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I honestly am not that bothered by the issue. Comparing IS tech to its direct Clan equivalents, it's always going to come up short, so that's really not a concern I have to begin with.
More specifically, the Celestials benefit by being the first IS Omnis designed since most of the Inner Sphere's more distinctive technology proliferated and were deployed at a time most of the other factions were too busy pushing hardware out the door to divert resources to constructing brand new Omnis of any type. We may see a generation in the next TRO that applies these lessons more readily. The existing frames have historical reasons for being what they are and that really means something to me - it makes taking them adapting them with modern hardware that much more interesting than just building a new chassis. In fact, they're getting just that if you look at some of the new configurations emerging in RS3058 Unabridged or RS3085U ONN.
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Of course, the Clans went pretty dead-end, too. They had a great idea (the omnimech: fill many roles with a few designs), but then never used it. Instead, they kept making new designs. When they need a specialist role in a star, they don't reconfigure an existing omni. Instead, they give a warrior a different omni and build their stars and binaries and trinaries out of many, many different designs.
Makes no sense in-universe, but Catalyst's gotta sell TROs and IWM minis. I consider omnimech irrelevancy a bargain price for Battletech's continued solvency.
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From an out of character perspective, Omni's were a pretty dumb idea to begin with. FASA/Catalyst/whoever has the license needs to sell TROs, and with Omnis, you don't need to built new 'mechs. Frankly, I think it would have been much cooler and more logical to give the Clans unique armor and guns, like stealth armor and plasma cannons.
That's a really good point right there, and TBH one I hadn't really thought of. If there were an optimized (or close to it) Omni for each of the weight classes no one would have any reason to buy new TROs...
Thanks Peacemaker, such a thought never occurred to me. Your point settles much the issue for me oddly enough.
I honestly am not that bothered by the issue. Comparing IS tech to its direct Clan equivalents, it's always going to come up short, so that's really not a concern I have to begin with.
More specifically, the Celestials benefit by being the first IS Omnis designed since most of the Inner Sphere's more distinctive technology proliferated and were deployed at a time most of the other factions were too busy pushing hardware out the door to divert resources to constructing brand new Omnis of any type. We may see a generation in the next TRO that applies these lessons more readily. The existing frames have historical reasons for being what they are and that really means something to me - it makes taking them adapting them with modern hardware that much more interesting than just building a new chassis. In fact, they're getting just that if you look at some of the new configurations emerging in RS3058 Unabridged or RS3085U ONN.
The Clan tech to IS tech thing only bothers me because the IS isn't using the new tech that makes it unique yet. However, you make a very valid point that the Celestials are the first Omnis since this new tech proliferated. The time frame for these technologies to proliferate is something I often don't consider, and I really should; complaining that I don't have canon Omnis with the new toys right now is probably very premature. I'd also like to add that while I don't have RS3058U I do have RS3085U ONN and I'm really happy with it, there are some fun and very welcome units in there and I agree it is fun to see how they've been adapted to new technologies.
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There's a range of experimental configurations in RS3058 Unabridged and they also slipped in the Clantech configurations from one of the old scenario packs (The Dragon Roars) that date back to Operation Bird-Dog.
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As for second-generation Draconis Combine OmniMechs, the storyline focused almost exclusively on the Federated Commonwealth during the 3050-3067 era under FASA and FanPro. There was only one TR after 3060, and it was basically TR: FedCom Civil War With Hints For The Jihad And We're Reprinting The Field Manual Designs Here Too. The next TR is in the chaos of the Jihad, and as noted everyone is scrambling to stay afloat, with varying degrees of success.
Or maybe it was the fact that they already produced all the 1st Gen omnis. The Combine has 8 native-designed and locally produced omnis. The other factions have one native design each, plus some licensed or purchased Combine Omnis. No other faction produces omnis in every weight class. The 'focus factions' each produce an assault omni, and the LA license-builds Firestarter-Os and Black Hawk-KUs. Together they only produce half the omni designs the Combine does. When you add in the fact that there's little difference between the better 1st gen omnis(Sunder and BHKU frex) and 2nd gen omnis, there's really no need for the Combine to have a 2nd gen omni. Not that I'd mind if they 2nd gen-ed a Strider II with DHS, for example.
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Some good points made. I honestly do not quite know what i think about Omnis. Seeing as i confess, i tend to find a config i like and stay with it.
The only real innovation for my experience is the ability to use a variant i like that's perhaps not one originally listed. Such as the Templar Grayson for example. But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train? I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.
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Some good points made. I honestly do not quite know what i think about Omnis. Seeing as i confess, i tend to find a config i like and stay with it.
The only real innovation for my experience is the ability to use a variant i like that's perhaps not one originally listed. Such as the Templar Grayson for example. But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train? I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.
I am in mostly the same boat as you, good sir. The only other possible advantage omnimechs have in my experience is their ability to carry battlearmor.
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Jihad tended to put development on hold.
By the time its over and the stoner age begins I'm sure we will see each house put out another Omni.
I'm sure the FedSuns will get a Fixed TC like the Warhawk or maybe TSM or LFFA
And the Cappies will have a Stealth Omni.
The Lyrans will use...oh.... I don't know..... a compact gyro or HFFA.
The Mariks will use ..... well..... what will the Mariks use ? MASC maybe or XL gyro.
Kurita will finally get something that uses DHS & Endo on the same chassis for a "Good" design.
Point is they will probably all make at least 1 new omni and it will get a new toy flavor.
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The only real innovation for my experience is the ability to use a variant i like that's perhaps not one originally listed. Such as the Templar Grayson for example. But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train? I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.
If your logistical train can handle it? Yes. Not in dribs and drabs but an Omni-heavy unit can share pods and be able to stop for an hour and suddenly turn around and come out swinging with a very different mix of capabilities. There's a lot of potential there but the IS is not prepared to exploit it properly.
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Why design new onmis when you can reconfigure the ones you have?
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If your logistical train can handle it? Yes. Not in dribs and drabs but an Omni-heavy unit can share pods and be able to stop for an hour and suddenly turn around and come out swinging with a very different mix of capabilities. There's a lot of potential there but the IS is not prepared to exploit it properly.
Which is what I imagine will end up happening in the future. Omni-technology is very limited in its usefulness when there are only 3-4 omnimechs a company. This is probably why most IS omni pilots find one loadout and stick with it; the loadout that lets them work best within their lance-company. Once industry returns to full capacity (such as may happen during the Stone-Age "Peace") we may began to see full companies of omnis, allowing their capabilities to be fully utilized.
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I don't think they're a dead end. Their a "pocketknife" design that's meant to be easily adaptable to any combat situation. That alone would make me want to field a lance of them. However, that one lance is obscenely expensive compared to a standard lance of pretty much equal machines. So, the number you field is relatively low compared to the number of BattleMechs you'll have. Unless you're the Clans *shrugs.*
If you want a mech you can pretty much configure on the fly between missions, omnis are your man.
If you want a less expensive, easily-maintained, and powerful design, then stay away from them.
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Which is what I imagine will end up happening in the future. Omni-technology is very limited in its usefulness when there are only 3-4 omnimechs a company. This is probably why most IS omni pilots find one loadout and stick with it; the loadout that lets them work best within their lance-company. Once industry returns to full capacity (such as may happen during the Stone-Age "Peace") we may began to see full companies of omnis, allowing their capabilities to be fully utilized.
i'm inclined to agree to a point here. after what i understand happened to the industrial base during the jihad and the 'mech numbers in the dark ages i expect that there's going to be a call for 'mechs that can be called on in many roles to refit units that need to be replenished and the house lords will probably try to utilize omnimech companies to make their reduced forces more flexible.
i don't think it will be fully utilized though, mainly because the IS armies tend to favor certain weapons over actual utility. and besides, that's what custom loadouts are for! ;)
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i don't think it will be fully utilized though, mainly because the IS armies tend to favor certain weapons over actual utility. and besides, that's what custom loadouts are for! ;)
Well true, there's no fun in having a completely logical military ;D
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Or maybe it was the fact that they already produced all the 1st Gen omnis.
Yes, so why not improve on existing designs by installing Light Ferro-Fibrous, an Endo Steel frame, removing fixed items, and so on? Even if all they do is that and slap a "Mark II" at the end of it, it is still an improvement.
The 'focus factions' each produce an assault omni, and the LA license-builds Firestarter-Os and Black Hawk-KUs. Together they only produce half the omni designs the Combine does.
Given that both recieved the best of the original Omnis and imported the ones they did not manufacture in large numbers, the same argument can be applied- why, if they already had access to such machines, did they develop second-generation OmniMechs?
When you add in the fact that there's little difference between the better 1st gen omnis(Sunder and BHKU frex) and 2nd gen omnis, there's really no need for the Combine to have a 2nd gen omni.
The first-generation OmniMech loadouts are badly, badly dated. Not a problem if your home games allow customs, but a major issue when comparing the Sunder to either the Hauptman or Templar. Others, such as the Owens, Strider, and Firestarter have some major flaws on top of that.
If the other nations, even the Capellan Confederation, found it necessary, desirable, or possible to develop improved Omni chassis, why not the Combine?
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Why design new onmis when you can reconfigure the ones you have?
Because many of the innovations in IS tech can't be pod mounted. Advanced gyros and TSM, among some other newer technologies, could be a big deal for IS OmniMechs. Also the realization that CASE can be pod mounted could be a significant factor for IS OmniMech design. Looking to the Celestials we can see some of this in action; the Deva could be a real pain to put down since it was still mobile after the first gyro hit, and the Seraph was scary when it was configured to activate its TSM. Really the small cockpits and hard mounted C3i are my only real gripes regarding the Celestials, and in both cases that equipment was there for a good reason, even if it makes them less than ideal for anyone other than the Manei Domini.
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Although it saddens me, I think its unlikely we'll be seeing any more IS omnimechs. I don't know too much about the Dark Ages, but it seems omnis decline even more than standard mechs - which is an even bigger shame, since you should want the few mechs remaining to be as flexible as possible. They would also be well suited to smaller elite commands too for similar reasons.
I'm not sure the IS needs too many updated omnimechs, but there are roles that could filled by more efficient units, like an ES/DHS version of the Owens, as has already been mentioned. I don't think the time it took the clans to make the jump between different generations of omnis is a good gauge of how fast the IS should go either. It's a lot easier to do something once you know someone else can. The first generation of omnis suffered from their shortened/rushed development period, while mechs like the Templar and Hauptmann show what the IS is capable of if it takes its time.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that more (and better) omnis appear in the IS, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Cheers,
LCC
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Given that both recieved the best of the original Omnis and imported the ones they did not manufacture in large numbers, the same argument can be applied- why, if they already had access to such machines, did they develop second-generation OmniMechs?
If the other nations, even the Capellan Confederation, found it necessary, desirable, or possible to develop improved Omni chassis, why not the Combine?
Two Reasons: 1)factional pride and 2)national security.
1)Everybody wants their own stuff. Read in TRO 3050 where it talks about DC warriors not wanting Quentin's Victors because they're seen as Davion designs, or not wanting Hachetmen because they don't like axes. Of course other nations are going to try to buid their own omnis.
2)Importing all your omnis, especially from a traditional enemies (as was the case for the LA and FS, with the exception of the LA's licensed FS9-Os and BHKU-Os) is a *bad* idea. Even for their erstwhile Kapteyn allies, the designs must be shipped across the FC to get there. If you build your own omnis, at your own place, it's not a problem. Is there any other case of a Successor State, or all the Successor States, producing their equipment from a single source? Producing the IS's only supply of IS Omnis gives the DC a monopoly nearly akin to that of ComStar. It can't last, but even so, they still originate and produce (prejihad) 8 of the 13 (IIRC) IS Omni designs.
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I think part of the decline of the omnimech is the reduction of the House funded forces. Omnimechs debuted after the age of the family mech, and are state property. I'm guessing its going to be the mechs that belong to the old, hereditary mechwarrior family mechs that will survive the reductions.
Cheers,
LCC
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Importing all your omnis, especially from a traditional enemies (as was the case for the LA and FS, with the exception of the LA's licensed FS9-Os and BHKU-Os) is a *bad* idea. Even for their erstwhile Kapteyn allies, the designs must be shipped across the FC to get there. If you build your own omnis, at your own place, it's not a problem. Is there any other case of a Successor State, or all the Successor States, producing their equipment from a single source? Producing the IS's only supply of IS Omnis gives the DC a monopoly nearly akin to that of ComStar. It can't last, but even so, they still originate and produce (prejihad) 8 of the 13 (IIRC) IS Omni designs.
Every nation produces their own Omnis. By Jihad's end, the other Successor States have been manufacturing new Omnis at their own facilities for longer than (3058-3081, 23 years) the Combine had their OmniMech factories (3052-3067), total. Other nations might only have a few lines each, but a few still handily beats none.
The Combine only had "exclusivity" on the OmniMechs for six years at the most. Since then, they have been rather comprehensively overtaken, not only in terms of successive OmniMech generations, but in many cases known configurations.
The Suns had their own Blackjack Omni, Black Hawk KU and Avatar lines in addition to the Templar. I don't know how that translates to importing all their material.
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I'm surprised people talking about the shaky future of new omnis haven't mentioned that the DA gets an Atlas omni (Yes, the hockymask one) in the 3130's I think? Maybe 3140's. The XTRO's have also been favorably pointing toward omni versions of new chassis that may be built later.
I'm just saying, what's the point if the people using them don't use them as intended or they lack the proper logistical support?
I think part of the decline of the omnimech is the reduction of the House funded forces. Omnimechs debuted after the age of the family mech, and are state property. I'm guessing its going to be the mechs that belong to the old, hereditary mechwarrior family mechs that will survive the reductions.
Cheers,
LCC
Much as I am a huge fan of the family mech, they are the group that has taken the most losses of all types of mech ownership. They are exceedingly rare in the DA. Even more so in the RotS where they were pretty forcibly stamped out or converted to Stoners. Remember the TRO 3085 Atlas entry.
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The Suns had their own Blackjack Omni, Black Hawk KU and Avatar lines in addition to the Templar. I don't know how that translates to importing all their material.
Source? The only times the Suns gets mentioned in the omni entries of TRO 3058U, it's importing mechs. They aren't listed as having a single factory. They explicitly import the Strider, Firestarter-O, and captured some Black Hawk-KUs. They may well import Raptors and Owenses, but the text isn't clear. The Blackjack-O, Avatar, and Sunder make no mention of the FS, and Avatars were explicitly sold only to the Lyran half of the FC. This is as of March 3070 in universe.
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The Crofton StarCorps facility had a license to produce the Combine Omnimechs page 90 of TRO 3067. This helped with the designing of the Thantos, but then the AFFS Quartermaster declined to buy a Omnimech version. Though they still bought the Mantefuffel.
The New Valencia GM facility produced the Avatar and Black Jack Omni according to Housebook Davion page 171.
Black Hawk KUs were produced on New Avalon by Corean Enterprises as stated in Housebook Davion page 170.
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Weird, you'd think '58U would have mentioned that. I shall have to reevaluate my argument. :-[
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No problem. The reason that it isn't mentioned is that I know for a fact that StarCorps lost their license to produce the designs later. GM probably lost when their facility exploded. And Corean probably just lost it the same way that StarCorps did.
Though I know how it feels. If someone told me that Quintus Allard-Liao was killed off in a throw away line in a sourcebook that I probably owned, I'd be banging my head into the desk. And then to add insult to injury that I was told that the missing Avalon Cruiser, the Andrew Davion, had been secretly captured by the Ravens when the crew was drunk one night I'd probably have broken the desk all together.
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It's just that I didn't think to look for information on the '58 omnis in a TRO besides '58. ???
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I have no explanation for that one. Probably someone forgot some details on the issue. Which is why I guess they expanded the fact checkers later on.
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It surprising what designs pop up when you look through the "Economics" section in the different House Books (i.e., the FWL is building Owens, Blackjacks and Striders - no wonder it took them so long to get turned on to building the Persesus, the Combine sure licensed them some winners ;) ).
Cheers,
LCC
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I can agree there...the Hauptmann is the Inner Sphere's Dire Wolf: The premier Assault OmniMech.
Does that make the Templar the Inner Sphere Warhawk?
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Does that make the Templar the Inner Sphere Warhawk?
Absolutely, right down to the TC ... and without all those overly fixed DHS.
Cheers,
LCC
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Also, neither are currently in production.
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You know that is a pretty sad statement right there.
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I'm wondering if part of the issue with no new IS OmniMechs using the tech that the Celestials used is because of the issues created with crit slots (or specifically, the lack of available crits after installing them) which apparently forced the WoBblies to deploy what were okay if not outstanding Omnis? You're basically forced to use small cockpits and
At least according to my copy of TechManual, it takes up six slots throughout the Mech... which means that, depending on the pod location, you've lost enough room to mount at least one weapon. While the Light Engine takes up fewer crit slots in the side torso than the IS-equivalent XL, you're still forced to figure out where to stick various things like DHS or jump jets (if the design needs them). Isn't that why the Seraph is stuck with an U/AC 10 and a snub-nose PPC in its primary configuration, which seems like relatively light equipment for an 85-tonner? Its HEAVIEST configuration, in my books, has the two Heavy PPC's and a light along with pulse lasers... and it only manages that because the lasers take so few critical slots. And this, along with the Deva, are probably the best of the Celestials for pod space.
Heck, isn't that why the Dire Wolf, the Clans' heaviest Omni, used Standard engines and armor?
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Also, neither are currently in production.
Well, we don't know that, just the production lines for Warhawk were always on the Homeworlds, so the cutoff is why no new ones appearing in the Inner Sphere.
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I'm wondering if part of the issue with no new IS OmniMechs using the tech that the Celestials used is because of the issues created with crit slots (or specifically, the lack of available crits after installing them) which apparently forced the WoBblies to deploy what were okay if not outstanding Omnis?
This is why the Avatar, Sunder, and Hauptmann are such useful platforms - their crits are basically wide open overall. The real "winners" for screwed up crits on an IS Omni are the Templar and Perseus.
As for the Celestials, crits aren't really a problem at all, at least not more than for other Omnis of the same general size. All of them other than the Malak have a lot of open spaces. The Malak dodges the problem by being, like all lights, starved for tonnage to begin with, so it's less of an issue there. The Seraph Invictus's primary problem is the retractable blade, although mixing MMLs and Streaks is also eating into your tonnage.
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Well, we don't know that, just the production lines for Warhawk were always on the Homeworlds, so the cutoff is why no new ones appearing in the Inner Sphere.
For the purposes of the narrative in the immediate future, though, the Homeworlds don't exist.
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It surprising what designs pop up when you look through the "Economics" section in the different House Books (i.e., the FWL is building Owens, Blackjacks and Striders - no wonder it took them so long to get turned on to building the Persesus, the Combine sure licensed them some winners ;) ).
Cheers,
LCC
All 3 were very logical choices. Notice what 2 devices seem to show up fairly often on the Strider and Owens to figure out why a military that loves missiles, particularly semi-guided ones would choose them. In the case of the Blackjack, why do people seem to think its bad?
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It's the only one of the three that isn't idiotically crippled in one way or another. The fact that you can use an Owens doesn't change the fact that the design team made two very major mistakes on the design and the Strider's lack of double heat sinks is a similarly large problem. And even then, the Blackjack's lack of crits gets in the way of some possible uses of all that tonnage... which means that of their Omnis, two have crit problems, one is a specialist whose possible configurations are severely circumscribed by the lack of double heat sinks, and the fourth lacks the DHS to again efficiently use its tonnage, effectively dead-ending the design as a light missile boat.
EDIT: Also, a number of the Owens configurations were apparently designed by pulling random things out of the parts bin, which doesn't help the design's reputation at all.
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All 3 were very logical choices. Notice what 2 devices seem to show up fairly often on the Strider and Owens to figure out why a military that loves missiles, particularly semi-guided ones would choose them. In the case of the Blackjack, why do people seem to think its bad?
I think the BJ-2O's bad rep stems mostly from its being a 4/6/4 50 ton mech with an XL engine. It does outgun many heavy mechs, but it's pretty fragile.
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I actually don't mind the BJ-2O and find it to be a useful and flexible little trooper. It can bring the firepower of any of the classic SW era Heavies to field. Like Moonsword mentioned though, it suffers for crits. Maybe the layout of the Blackjack (the FWL's least messed up locally produced omni) was used as the basis for the Perseus, which would help explain the similar poor choices in ES crit allocation made on Kalidasa.
Cheers,
LCC
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I think the BJ-2O's bad rep stems mostly from its being a 4/6/4 50 ton mech with an XL engine. It does outgun many heavy mechs, but it's pretty fragile.
That's a significant part of it from what I saw in the Fan Article thread about it. They need to be used with a certain amount of discretion. I do wonder if the critical issues it has have anything to do with the Perseus's problems in that same area - both of them are generally suffering for the inclusion of endo-steel.
LCC: Beat me to it, darn you!
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I think the "invention" of light ferro armor and endo composite structure could be really useful for a next generation omni, freeing up a few extra tons without totally devouring all the crits. On something like the Sunder you could pull the fixed DHS in the arm, install endo-composite for 2 more free tons and allocate the 7 crits to the 3 left free by removing the DHS and 2 into each leag (which aren't used in any of the current configs any way). Those couple of tons could then be used for those little goodies like CASE, C3 and ECM. I like allocating structural crits asymmetrically on omnis to maintain at least one 10 crit bay for the big ACs. That one ES crit in the Templar's right arm always drives me a little crazy.
Cheers,
LCC
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It's possible. I'm not sure I don't favor the Hauptmann's approach for the assault Omni, though - big, a focus on the basics to simplify mass production, and as many crits open as possible. Assault 'Mechs are big ticket items. A Hauptmann is cheap enough that you can buy one and a lot of pods for the same cost as, say, a Thunder Hawk. (Transportation arrangements are, of course, another problem...)
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Why has Kurita not developed a new OmniMech, in fact?
*Points to smoking, radioactive crater that was one known as Luthien Armour Works.*
So to put things into perspective:
IS OmniMech Timeline:
3052: Battle fo Luthien, Draconis Combine receives a lot of Clan OmniMech salvage.
3052: Raptor (25t).
3054: Sunder (90t).
3056: Owens (35t), Firestarter-O (45t).
3057: Strider (40t).
3058: Black Hawk-KU (60t), BlackJack-O (50t), Perseus (75t).
3059: Avatar (70t), Arctic Fox (30t).
3060: Men Shen (55t), Hauptmann (95t).
3062: Templar (85t).
3065: Battle Cobra (C*-made, 40t).
3067/3068: Wobbie Jihad begins, LAW nuked.
3069: Malak (30t), Preta (45t), Grigori (60t), Deva (70t), Seraph (85t), Archangel (100t).
OmniMech tonnages: 25t, 30t, 35t, 40t, 45t, 50t, 55t, 60t, 70t, 75t, 85t, 90t, 95t, 100t.
Missing tonnages: 10t, 15t, 20t, 65t, 80t.
So yeah, not much time to R&D new omnimechs using new technologies since the last 2nd generation IS Omni (C* Battle Cobra). The Compact FE is from 3068, LFE from 3062 (Templar could've had it, theoretically), XXLFE simply cost too much. Compact Gyro is from 3068, Heavy-Duty Gyro from 3067, XL Gyro from 3067. Small CPit is from 3067, Torso-Mounted is from 3053 (this one might actually be useful). Endo-Composite is from 3067, Composite and Reinforced don't have crits so I can't check with SSW... TSM has limited use. Void-Sig is from 3070. Light FF is from 3067, Heavy FF from 3069, Stealth from 3063, Glazer/Reactive are from 3058/3063, not sure about Hardened...
So theoretically, if the Jihad hadn't happened, we probably would've seen 3rd generation IS omnis by now (other than the celestials). The biggest IS Omni factory lies in radioactive ruins, so that'll slow the process even further.
now ask yourself this. how long exactly did it take the Clans to develop their 2nd generation Omnimechs?
The Coyotl is from 2854, so it'd be about 16 years till the first 2nd generation Clan Omni (Nova). The IS did it even faster in only 6 years (Perseus is the first 2nd gen IS omni?). With the clans we see a couple of designs in the first half of the 2870s, then a gap until 2887 (13 year gap). Then a 3-year gap, a 10-year gap, a 26-year gap, 4-year gap, etc. So the IS is producing new Omni generations at a much higher rate.
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*Points to smoking, radioactive crater that was one known as Luthien Armour Works.*
IS OmniMech Timeline:
3052: Battle fo Luthien, Draconis Combine receives a lot of Clan OmniMech salvage.
3052: Raptor.
3054: Sunder.
3056: Owens, Firestarter-O.
3057: Strider.
3058: Black Hawk-KU, BlackJack-O, Perseus.
3059: Avatar, Arctic Fox.
3060: Men Shen, Hauptmann.
3062: Templar.
3065: Battle Cobra (C*-made).
3067/3068: Wobbie Jihad begins.
3069: Malak, Preta, Grigori, Deva, Seraph, Archangel.
So yeah, not much time to R&D new omnimechs using new technologies since the last 2nd generation IS Omni (C* Battle Cobra). The Compact FE is from 3068, LFE from 3062 (Templar could've had it, theoretically), XXLFE simply cost too much. Compact Gyro is from 3068, Heavy-Duty Gyro from 3067, XL Gyro from 3067. Small CPit is from 3067, Torso-Mounted is from 3053 (this one might actually be useful). Endo-Composite is from 3067, Composite and Reinforced don't have crits so I can't check with SSW... TSM has limited use. Void-Sig is from 3070. Light FF is from 3067, Heavy FF from 3069, Stealth from 3063, Glazer/Reactive are from 3058/3063, not sure about Hardened...
So theoretically, if the Jihad hadn't happened, we probably would've seen 3rd generation IS omnis by now (other than the celestials). The biggest IS Omni factory lies in radioactive ruins, so that'll slow the process even further.Don't have the exact date on the Coyotl at hand, but assuming its from 2858 (like the RAT), then it'd be about 12 years till the first 2nd generation Clan Omni (Nova). The IS did it even faster in only 6 years (Perseus is the first 2nd gen IS omni?). With the clans we see a couple of designs in the first half of the 2870s, then a gap until 2887 (13 year gap). Then a 3-year gap, a 10-year gap, a 26-year gap, 4-year gap, etc. So the IS is producing new Omni generations at a much higher rate.
Succinct and to the point. Thank you! That's an interesting list.
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But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train? I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.
Ah, but look at the advantages (assuming your unit uses omnis correctly):
Say you've got a standard Inner Sphere company, which is a jumble of different units that occasionally receive a weak theme at the lance level (scout lance, fire support lance, etc.) In fact, the 3025 average seemed to be 14 different designs in a 12-'Mech lance. ;) That means you've got to stock 14 different models of engines, 14 different gyros, 14 different types of actuators, 14 different types of armor, 14 different communication systems, 14 different targeting & tracking systems, 14 different cockpits, and ammo and spares for 14 sets of weapons.
Obviously, I kid about the 14 model part, but while there might be some commonality in engines (e.g., 120s, 275s and 300s) and weapons, and some companies did have multiples of some units (especially Wasps and Stingers), the logistical system is a frickin' nightmare. When you start looking at weapon brandnames/models and varying AC calibers in a single AC class, it's enough to reduce a quartermaster to tears.
On the other hand, if you can handle all the jobs in a company - or battalion, or regiment - with 3-5 OmniMech designs, you've just wiped out a lot of those problems. You've got common weapon models shared amongst the omnis and, if one type of omni shows up with weapons from a different manufacturer, just reconfigure its pods to use the weapons you normally field. Having only 3-5 designs cuts down on the numbers of engines, gyros, actuators, internal structure, electronics, etc. needed for repairs and maintenance.
And when you start noting the power of the "Swiss Army Weapons," then you don't really need to drag along a bunch of different pod configurations. You shouldn't need more than a handful to begin with.
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The purpose of an Owens is to bring its fixed equipment and battle armor to the field. Otherwise...
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So dedicating an OmniMech chassis doing a job that can be done by a non-Omni ICE hovercraft almost as well strikes you as a good idea?
Even just DHS would let it have an entire world of flexibility it doesn't have right now. No one's arguing that you can't make lemonade. We're arguing the League was handed a lemon.
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Well, the one argument in the Owens' favor is the go-anywhere nature of 'mechs. Crossing a forest is easy, especially with jumpjets; until there's an OmniKanga I think the idea of a BA taxi has merit.
Not a LOT...since it's pretty limited tying up a whole lance of mechs for a BA platoon. However, if you used them as recon units primarily, and carried good heavy-class BA, say Phalanx perhaps, you could turn it into a bit of a nasty surprise for someone wanting to go play scout killer.
Or, thinking further on it and adding to the post, perhaps as an ambush transport? Seed some Owens with BA units in the backfield, using the lack of terrain restrictions to get through impassable areas, drop BA along lines of retreat to go dig in and hide, and send the Owens away. Again, you're using a 'Mech as a taxi instead of a regular 'mech, but it does have the mobility to exploit. That's about all it's got, but...
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Again, we're making lemonade here. The Owens would have an enormous amount of potential opened up by DHS and perhaps dropping the slave.
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Succinct and to the point. Thank you! That's an interesting list.
Indeed...
Also, I finally managed to read more than just the first page of this thread.. :D
So the statement of the FWL taking so long to develop the Perseus must've been either sarcasm, or rather misplaced (seeing as its the first non-DC IS omni). It also premiered the same year as the other IS heavy omni (although with 15-ton difference). Hm.. I think I'll update that timeline to add the 'mech tonnages...
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I think part of the knock on the Perseus is perception. OOC it came out in '67, with the later 2nd gens. People don't look as much at th IC date as "oh, it came out later like the Templar right?"
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Onisuzume, where did you get that date for the Avatar? I'm not sure a 3059 mech would have first appeared in TRO 3058. It was also already in use before Operation Bulldog which took place in 3059.
Cheers,
LCC
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The Field Manual would have told people the Perseus's actual date, as well as the faction specific variants for the Blackjack omni and Firestarter omni. the Perseus did not really exist in large numbers in 3059, so it probably got ignored.
The trick to understanding why the League chose the Strider and Owens is to realize they were trying to integrate battle armor and semi-guided munitions at the same time. Those 2 omnis could transport the BA, and spot for semi-guideds and Arrows when needed. It was fairly smart from a logistical standpoint, and the Strider offered something the Owens did not, it was cheap.
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Actually, the reason the League has Owens and Strider machines is because those are the machines the Draconis Combine LET THEM HAVE.
The FWL did not design them, did not pay for them to be designed, and did not steal them.
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Actually, the reason the League has Owens and Strider machines is because those are the machines the Draconis Combine LET THEM HAVE.
The FWL did not design them, did not pay for them to be designed, and did not steal them.
P18 paragraph 5
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Of what? A Field Manual? TRO3058U? The Oxford English Dictionary?
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Field Manual
I forgot to add P 54 which mentions the unit's commander[1st Marik Militia] asking for production of the Owens by name.
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Onisuzume, where did you get that date for the Avatar? I'm not sure a 3059 mech would have first appeared in TRO 3058. It was also already in use before Operation Bulldog which took place in 3059.
Cheers,
LCC
Both the MUL and SSW list the year as 3059, the source being RS3058U/RS3058Uu (MUL/SSW).
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Both the MUL and SSW list the year as 3059, the source being RS3058U/RS3058Uu (MUL/SSW).
I wonder if that's an error, since it appears in the RATs in the FM: DCMS, which IIRC was from 3058.
Cheers,
LCC
PS: I just posted this question in "ask the Writers"
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Technically, it's from January 1st, 3059.
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I'm just saying 1 day is a quick quick transition from starting production to the one of the most common heavies in A and B rated units.
Does anyone know the in universe date for the original TRO3058?
Cheers,
LCC
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January '58.
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I'm just saying 1 day is a quick quick transition from starting production to the one of the most common heavies in A and B rated units.
Does anyone know the in universe date for the original TRO3058?
Cheers,
LCC
Please remember the Random Unit Tables are meant for GMs to quickly roll up a force that has many different capabilities and a general faction flavour. They are by no means indicative of availability or prevalence of a design.
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Looking back at the fluff for the Avatar (now that I'm actually home and not going by memory) it says that the Avatar was:
- Produced "several" years after research started in 3052
- Being deployed along the clan border for two years before the Lyran Secession, after which distribution switch to C*
which would make its debut around 3055.
Cheers,
LCC
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Looking back at the fluff for the Avatar (now that I'm actually home and not going by memory) it says that the Avatar was:
- Produced "several" years after research started in 3052
- Being deployed along the clan border for two years before the Lyran Secession, after which distribution switch to C*
which would make its debut around 3055.
Cheers,
LCC
You see, the design went into production in early 3059. Then, Theodore Kurita stuck several into Star League Time Capsules (designed by Terran Hegemony Temporal Mechanics Professor B. S. Johnson) for posterity's sake. This resulted in the machines being dug up on the planet Ankh-Morpork in 3049, but it took everyone several years to figure out how to make them work without them blowing up catastrophically and transforming the pilot into a cat girl (both side effects of the Johnson Time Capsule).
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So...Somethings we know from comments on the stuff in the Dark Age is that
OmniMechs were part of the "signature aesthetic" of the Nova Cats. It was implied that
most other groups had stpped making OmniMechs, in fact, the Novas we saw were supposedly
no-longer OmniMechs.
It seems that, by the Dark Ages, either OmniMechs are rare, even among the clans(The front line
Clan Mechs, like the Shrike, were conventional BattleMechs, not OmniMechs). So, if even the Clans
are using fewer OmniMechs, what does that say for the Inner Sphere?
Now, we can see very good reasons for all IS 'mechs, especially following the "Lets reduce our militaries"
craze that Stone kicked off, to be OmniMechs. One OmniMech can perform MORE jobs then a standard Battlemech,
for example. If you have a lance of solid, Medium OmniMechs, they can be used for Recon, Scout Hunting, Line Units,
Fire Support, just about any job that any medium BattleMech can do.
Of course, with Conventional BattleMechs, you produce adaptable pilots. A Centurion Pilot, for example, can perform
recon, Scout Hunting, Fire Support, or as a line unit, simply because the capabilities of the Centurion allow for all of
these jobs (though..I feel sorry for the Centurion that draws Recon Duty). So, we run into an issue: Those who
swear by OmniMechs are expecting someone to adapt the 'Mech to the situation, or pick a configuration that works
for them or their unit. On the other hand, the Conventional 'Mech pilot is going to be more prone towards adapting
how they use their 'mech to the role they are having to fill.
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I don't really see that. There's only so much "adapting" you can do to try to fill specific roles with the same mech. Doesn't matter how flexible your thinking is, a Centurion isn't going to spontaneously become a brawler without a change in its warload. You can certainly try to brawl, but with only an LB-10X and a single medium laser, you're just not going to do it very well. Omnimechs offer dramatically better adaptability in that regard. Got a lance of Avatars that need to guard a city? Outfit them with A or F configurations. Got an open plain? Go with the B, C, or H. It can pull the roll of Archer, Warhammer, or Grasshopper. No matter how hard you try, you can't do the opposite, however. It makes far more sense in an era of smaller armies to go with highly flexable multi-role platforms rather than specialists, but we keep seeing the opposite happen.
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I think it has more to do with the destruction of most Omnimech factories in the Jihad...the Lyrans and Capellans seem to be the only people having intact Omni production lines now.
For the Clans, every Clan's Omni-to-Standard Mech ratio is self-explanatory through M&M, but i still cant help feeling theres an Omni hate going on to see their numbers being so diminished. Even the Ghost Bears and WiE, who supposedly have the most Omni lines going through the Jihad, are turning to standards to fill holes in their militaries.
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Well maybe omnimechs take significantly longer to make from start to finish, so these factions that want to expand their military forces as quickly as possible due to battlefield losses and territory gains have turned to standard mechs because the Jihad was going on. And then right after the Jihad they were still stuck in the mindset to quickly expend their armed forces. And then when Stone's reforms come into effect, these factories are already building standard machines and most of them have already been allocated resources to do so. So it is easier to just let them finish rather than stop and move on to omnimechs.
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You'd think omnis would be easier to make, since you manufacture them in base config. You don't have to ship in weapons from five different places all over the nation. You ship them to the unit without weapons and the unit can plug in whatever config they need atm.
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OmniMech factories are significantly more difficult to build per developer statements. And frankly, I'm not seeing the Omni hate on their part. OmniMechs were deployed with front line, first-tier units across the board. Which were promptly tossed into the grinder because guess who gets called when it hits the fan? Combined with the factories getting pasted for the most part, the OmniMechs getting severely reduced makes a lot of sense, but there are new Omnis coming out in a trickle now (the Karhu and Flamberge, plus the Wusun and Ostrogoth OmniFighters).
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So they suffer from being too awesome O0.
Cheers,
LCC
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Or at least as being seen that way IC.
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OmniMech factories are significantly more difficult to build per developer statements. And frankly, I'm not seeing the Omni hate on their part. OmniMechs were deployed with front line, first-tier units across the board. Which were promptly tossed into the grinder because guess who gets called when it hits the fan? Combined with the factories getting pasted for the most part, the OmniMechs getting severely reduced makes a lot of sense, but there are new Omnis coming out in a trickle now (the Karhu and Flamberge, plus the Wusun and Ostrogoth OmniFighters).
And the Morganstern, an IS OmniFighter.
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Right! Thanks.
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What about IS Omni production?
I wish I could remember where but I could swear there was mention that IS corporations didn't like the idea of building Omnis because they could make more money on standard mechs. I would think the downsizing that Stone is pushing would drive the great houses to demand new Omnis. Though I suppose with the IS economies in the state they must be in after the Jihad one must take what one can get.
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Making any assumptions about "downsizing" from Stone for anything other than the Republic would be premature. For example, we know the FS is going to have wars on three borders during this period. That's not going to inspire anyone to decrease the size of a military that's already under its nominal strength.
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What about IS Omni production?
I wish I could remember where but I could swear there was mention that IS corporations didn't like the idea of building Omnis because they could make more money on standard mechs. I would think the downsizing that Stone is pushing would drive the great houses to demand new Omnis. Though I suppose with the IS economies in the state they must be in after the Jihad one must take what one can get.
That was a line from the Bruin's fluff in TRO '85
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That was a line from the Bruin's fluff in TRO '85
That was quick, thanks and good eye.
Making any assumptions about "downsizing" from Stone for anything other than the Republic would be premature. For example, we know the FS is going to have wars on three borders during this period. That's not going to inspire anyone to decrease the size of a military that's already under its nominal strength.
A good point. Thinking about it Omnis could be problem in a multi front scenario, where getting spread thin can become a real threat.
I wonder, do we have a rough idea what IS Omnis are in production post Jihad? I have some doubts about my personal favorite, the Avatar, surviving :-\
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It could also be the huge expense in purchasing the Omni, and then all of the pods for each configuration, and then schlepping that all over creation, even if you don't anticipate needing it. Given how beat-down the Inner Sphere is during the Dark Ages, they just don't have the resources for something as wasteful as Omnimechs.
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I wonder, do we have a rough idea what IS Omnis are in production post Jihad? I have some doubts about my personal favorite, the Avatar, surviving :-\
IIRC, Coventry Metal Works survived, so the Black Hawk KU, Firestarter, and Hauptmann should still be in production. Likewise, the Acrtic Fox should still be produced on Arc Royal.
LAW got blown to hell early on in the Jihad, don't know if they built any offsite facilities.
I heard something about Talon being hit pretty hard, so things look dicy for the Templar, though it appears that it will be put back into production at some point, due to it showing up (with a different appearance) in the Dark Age.
Don't know about the Avatar.
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I wonder, do we have a rough idea what IS Omnis are in production post Jihad? I have some doubts about my personal favorite, the Avatar, surviving :-\
The two Avatar lines I'm aware of were LAW's on Luthien (which is definitely gone) and the GM line on New Valencia. While New Valencia was hit at one point, it wasn't as hard hit as Kathil, so it's possible the Avatar is still in production there.
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The Blackjack and Men Shen might also still be in production in the CC. I'm pretty sure the Blackjack line on Irian didn't fare as well, I'm not sure however about the Perseus on Kalidasa or the Strider and Owens production in the FWL. IIRC the FS was also building there own BHKUs too. All the solid data I'm aware of is from the 3067 Housebooks though.
Cheers,
LCC
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The raid on GM New Valencia by the Blakists was supposedly targeted at the Marauder II lines. Given the Suns put out a new Marauder II as the Jihad wound down, I dunno how successful even that was.
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The raid on GM New Valencia by the Blakists was supposedly targeted at the Marauder II lines. Given the Suns put out a new Marauder II as the Jihad wound down, I dunno how successful even that was.
The refit?
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Didn't know if it was a refit or a new build. Sounded like a pretty intensive mod, so I assumed. And we all know what that means...
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Manufacturer: Refit
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Think you mean TRO 3085 there, Kit...
;)
Also, the Deployment section bluntly states in the first line that the Davions are unable to manufacture new units...and the variants section indicates other nations are the same...
Ruger
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Given the mention of GM focusing more on conventional vehicles and BAs than 'Mechs and subsequent Blakist raids on New Valencia, i think the Avatar production was also hit.
Coventry's in even worse situation than GM, and the article in M&M about them shutting down lines to concentrate on more popular 'Mechs can be read both ways in regards to their Omni production, if they weren't already nuked by the Blakists first.
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Think you mean TRO 3085 there, Kit...
;)
Maaaaaaaybe.
:-X
:D
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The thing is though, GM is a huge company. Mech production is but a small part of their operations. What I think that line means is that GM is only really investing to increase their capacity and create new designs in the conventional vehicle and battle armour markets. If the Avatar lines survived they will keep making them. If they got destroyed they're not likely going to revive them.
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Personally, i prefer the Avatar lines being converted to Templar production ::)
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The raid on GM New Valencia by the Blakists was supposedly targeted at the Marauder II lines. Given the Suns put out a new Marauder II as the Jihad wound down, I dunno how successful even that was.
Absent concrete evidence to the contrary assume TPTB have destroyed all Fed Suns production.
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There is a great deal of concrete evidence otherwise.
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Given the mention of GM focusing more on conventional vehicles and BAs than 'Mechs and subsequent Blakist raids on New Valencia, i think the Avatar production was also hit.
Hit, yes. Knocked out and discontinued...? No idea. Considering that might be the only remaining OmniMech line in the Suns, I'm not inclined to say it's been tossed definitively, just hit at one point.
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Well to be fair, irregardless of whether or not there has been much evidence for or against the continued survival of IS Omni lines, it definitely seems unlikely that many, if any at all, of the IS Omni lines are still being maintained. Even during the height of production, the logistics of how small the number of Omnis existing in the IS compared to the total mech forces made it difficult to get a true Omni-force going. After the first two generations, it has been slow going at best getting further Omnimechs developed and existing Omnimechs deployed in large enough numbers to be worthwhile. In the post-Jihad climate with even fewer working facilities, pursuing a technology that is a technologically-complex and fairly minor aspect of existing militaries, that is arguably more expensive than it is worth. It would fall in line that the same companies largely ceasing production of the Battlemech as a whole would drop the Omnimech first. it's simply not feasible given the times.
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Well, there are always other factors to consider. I remember in the late '80s there was some talk about the West German army moving to entirely caseless rounds for their small arms. It was going to be a big savings on logistics and increase clip capacity.
Then the wall fell. And they inherited all of East Germany. And East Germany's military. And enough ammunition to last them, at their current rate of usage, for like a century.
So the whole caseless idea got tossed out.
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Jup, the protype weapon in question was named H&K G11. Revolutionary concept.
btw, the US Army made a deal with H&K not long ago to licence the technology for their own Light Infantry Weapons program.
Just sayin. :P
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Caseless ammunition is an excellent concept, but has been plagued with little issues, combined with the fact it would mean a gradual overhaul of the entire supply chain. It's one of those ideas that is almost too great to be useful.
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I heard there were overheating issues as well.
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And issues of exploding un-fired rounds. It's one of those ideas that's awesome in concept, and by now is pretty awesome in practice, but like Metric in the states, traditional jacketed rounds are just too well established.
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And how H&K was treating the propriety nature of the Tech, the US was talking about adopting the weapon or a derivative their of, you could only field strip the sucker down so far, after that US Army Armours weren't allowed to look in the Magic Box, it had to go back to Germany for even low level maintenance (by H&K or West German Army Weapon Techs with the appropriate clearance) and H&K where not going to licence the Ammo production to their US arm let alone anyone else, that kind of killed the deal before the Tech issues started to pop up.
But that's enough Thread drift from me since I can't recall the XM- series of ceaseless Firearms that DARPA was working on (Pistol, Carbine, AR & Light Support Weapon).
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There is a great deal of concrete evidence otherwise.
Such as?
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So...Somethings we know from comments on the stuff in the Dark Age is that OmniMechs were part of the "signature aesthetic" of the Nova Cats. It was implied that most other groups had stpped making OmniMechs, in fact, the Novas we saw were supposedly no-longer OmniMechs.
You're reading to much into a half remembered paragraph. The exact quote (and you dont know HOW hard it was to find a copy of it) (http://www.ccgrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=522377) follows.
Before concepting and sculpting a new faction, an internal style guide is first generated. MechWarrior Digital Studio Manager Vic Bonilla reviews source materials here in the office and then generates a style guide based in part on those findings as well as input from the game designer and other sculptors. From the style guide comes what are referred to as the key elements of a faction. The key elements of Clan Nova Cat are:
Mystical elements. *snip*
OmniMech technology. In part because of their affinity for OmniMechs (BattleMechs with interchangeable parts), Nova Cat units have an overall look and feel to them.
Neo-Gothic Elements. *snip*
No where in there does it hint that the Nova Cats are the only ones still producing Omnis. At worse, it implies that the Nova Cats might have a higher ratio of Omnis to Non Omnis then other factions.
As is, there's plenty of evidence of Omni use into the DAs.
Karhu Omnis are mentioned being used by the Ghost Bears. (It's where we first spotted it)
There's the Mad Cat IV and Vulture IV, both new Omnis.
From Tammi Miller's FP dossier "Vultures were a common sight among the invading Clans, particularly in the Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar armies, and remain so even today."
From Noel Hurtato's dossier: "Because of its significance to its touman, the Falcon made a point of adding production lines for the Thor to its Sudeten BattleMech factories, ensuring the continued deployment of this machine even after home world ties were severed." This line was later mentioned in Master's and Minions.
Multiple Vulture and Summoner dossiers list parts (Olivetti T4 Endo-steel, Bergan Version 8.3 Endo Steel) made in IS located Clan facilities. While circumstantial (it could also just be signs of a standardised refit), this could be used to show newer Omnis produced from that facility.
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An interesting tidbit from XTRO: Marik I had forgotten about is in the text for the LFA-1X Pandarus. Kali Yama is at least entertaining the idea of a new OmniMech if funding can found. I can hope can't I?
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Another interesting tidbit, there are other Free Worlds League designed and fielded omnis [insert edit]If you read TRO 3067[/edit] besides the Perseus, they just aren't fielded in significant numbers.
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Another interesting tidbit, there are other Free Worlds League designed and fielded omnis besides the Perseus, they just aren't fielded in significant numbers.
Not significant enough to warrent a mention of them, indeed.
Also, what Free Worlds League? ;)
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Another interesting tidbit, there are other Free Worlds League designed and fielded omnis besides the Perseus, they just aren't fielded in significant numbers.
Judging from the evidence in the book, they aren't fielded at all. The only Omnis mentioned in the book are the shelved Pandarus Omni program, the Shiva (which is not news to anyone since, oh, TRO3067), and the rejected proposal of a stealth OmniFighter that again is not even remotely implied to be deployed at that point in time.
If you're talking about something from somewhere else, name it.
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Such as?
Masters and Minions, TRs '75, '85, and '85 Supplemental, just to start.
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Judging from the evidence in the book, they aren't fielded at all. The only Omnis mentioned in the book are the shelved Pandarus Omni program, the Shiva (which is not news to anyone since, oh, TRO3067), and the rejected proposal of a stealth OmniFighter that again is not even remotely implied to be deployed at that point in time.
If you're talking about something from somewhere else, name it.
Read Technical Readout: 3067 under the overview of the Perseus. This part is hard to miss.
EDIT: The same entry seems to appear word for word in the Field Manual: Free Worlds League.
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Next time, give a source with your 'tidbit'. At least two people clearly thought you were talking about XTRO:Marik based on the context, giving both of them the impression you were pulling this out of thin air.
The relevant quote for those of you following this at home:
The LCCC has authorized several programs to create League-designed and manufactured OmniMechs. To date, however, only one model—the P1 Perseus—has entered service with the FWLM in any significant numbers.
It's an interesting throwaway line but at this point, that's about all it is.
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Read Technical Readout: 3067 under the overview of the Perseus. This part is hard to miss.
EDIT: The same entry seems to appear word for word in the Field Manual: Free Worlds League.
It means nothing. The only Omni-capable units designed by the FWL at this time are the Shiva and Perseus. That's it. Nothing else. To speculate further would be like stating that the Capellan Confederation has XL-engined high-tech Thrush fighters because of a similar line in TRO 3050U (here's a hint. They don't)
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Next time, give a source with your 'tidbit'. At least two people clearly thought you were talking about XTRO:Marik based on the context, giving both of them the impression you were pulling this out of thin air.
I did not mean to do that, I will edit the post so I do not give future people the wrong impression and get them to buy a product that lacks such an item. Since your quote will already show the minor error, I won't worry about the rest.
The relevant quote for those of you following this at home:
It's an interesting throwaway line but at this point, that's about all it is.
Thats your take, I see it another way.
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It means nothing. The only Omni-capable units designed by the FWL at this time are the Shiva and Perseus. That's it. Nothing else. To speculate further would be like stating that the Capellan Confederation has XL-engined high-tech Thrush fighters because of a similar line in TRO 3050U (here's a hint. They don't)
You should add to your statement "Which we have the stats for, or names of" instead of making an inaccurate blanket statement. We already have been told such mechs exist in 2 books, I am sticking to canon over your speculation.
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You should add to your statement "Which we have the stats for, or names of" instead of making an inaccurate blanket statement. We already have been told such mechs exist in 2 books, I am sticking to canon over your speculation.
I am not speculating.
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I am not speculating.
Canon sources say they field them, your saying they don't so since your not speculating, may I ask you to name the source? Perhaps I did jump the gun and that has been overruled.
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Canon sources say they field them, your saying they don't so since your not speculating, may I ask you to name the source? Perhaps I did jump the gun and that has been overruled.
Incorrect. Canon sources say that only one design has been fielded in significant numbers. That does not mean that there are other designs that have been fielded in insignificant numbers. You are aware that I'm part of the Master Unit List team, right?
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You are aware that I'm part of the Master Unit List team, right?
They're just a myth.
:)
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They're just a myth.
:)
There's a 20-25% chance of that being true.
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There's a 20-25% chance of that being true.
15-20%.
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This is why the Avatar, Sunder, and Hauptmann are such useful platforms - their crits are basically wide open overall. The real "winners" for screwed up crits on an IS Omni are the Templar and Perseus.
Why the Templar hate ?
I would think the BlackJack would be seen as a worse set up for crits.
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Okay as much as I like to argue, let's go from a different angle. I think that the more logical concept would be to list of known surviving factories that have produced omni vehicles, fighters, and mechs pre-jihad and their sources. Also include any facilities that got those abilities after the jihad.
Like so:
Crofton- Starcorps Manteuffel (TRO 3067). Possibly, the First Gen Kurita Omnimechs under license. (TRO 3067)
That way, we can all see how many facilities can still produce omni weapons.
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Incorrect. Canon sources say that only one design has been fielded in significant numbers. That does not mean that there are other designs that have been fielded in insignificant numbers.
So why didn't they stop after the "Entered service" part. It would have been a perfectly fine sentence. The "Significant numbers" part is crucial since the first half of the overview already established the context. I am guessing its a lot easier to ignore it when writing out the list(simplification leads to efficiency, and your not psychic), but its there. It can be overturned if ruled so, or a later canon source says otherwise.
You are aware that I'm part of the Master Unit List team, right?
so? Are you giving us errata?
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Why the Templar hate ?
I would think the BlackJack would be seen as a worse set up for crits.
A) The Blackjack is worse from a strict number available perspective but it's not trying to wedge 40 tons of equipment into them, either.
B) Part of that setup is the sinks that it can't push into the engine, something the Templar doesn't have to deal with. (That's one of the places the Templar's design is much better, in fact, by exploiting the engine size.)
C) It's also not a second generation Omni - it's the example the people designing the Perseus and Templar should have (and didn't) learn from.
D) Most importantly, I didn't think of it at the time I wrote that because it doesn't stick out in my mind as much in terms of aggravation (see A and B).
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So why didn't they stop after the "Entered service" part. It would have been a perfectly fine sentence. The "Significant numbers" part is crucial since the first half of the overview already established the context. I am guessing its a lot easier to ignore it when writing out the list(simplification leads to efficiency, and your not psychic), but its there. It can be overturned if ruled so, or a later canon source says otherwise.
For the same reason TRO 3039 talks about XL-engined Thrushes, and other TRO entries talk about variants that never existed.
so? Are you giving us errata?
What errata? The MUL has entries for units that most people have never heard of, and don't have stats. It does not have entries for any mythical Marik Omni units aside from the aforementioned Perseus and Shiva. Accept that I know more about this than you do.
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For the same reason TRO 3039 talks about XL-engined Thrushes, and other TRO entries talk about variants that never existed.
What errata? The MUL has entries for units that most people have never heard of, and don't have stats. It does not have entries for any mythical Marik Omni units aside from the aforementioned Perseus and Shiva. Accept that I know more about this than you do.
Sounds more like they just did not do any followup. Since asymmetric information is hurting me as far as I am aware, and I will accept your veracity (Because if I don't, this discussion is pointless), then I am stuck with dealing with the fact that unreleased canon information overrules the Readout's proper English interpretation.
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Sounds more like they just did not do any followup. Since asymmetric information is hurting me as far as I am aware, and I will accept your veracity (Because if I don't, this discussion is pointless), then I am stuck with dealing with the fact that unreleased canon information overrules the Readout's proper English interpretation.
Because of course that single vague interpretation must mean the the FWL has several different home-built Omni designs.
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As to the question of newer technologies in IS OmniMech production; How do you think the Celestials compare to other IS OmniMechs of the same or similar weight?
For example the Avatar versus the Deva; both are 70 tons but (IMHO) drastically different. I like the Deva's toughness but hate the small cockpit and endo-steel. Which do you consider better? Are the technologies used in the Deva (and other Celestials) worth it?
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Apples to oranges in some ways. The Avatar is more generally useful and a lot less tied to a specific faction's doctrine and hardware. Because of the crits and those few extra tons, there are configurations an Avatar can pull off more readily. On the other hand, a Deva-like machine isn't a bad thing and the durability edge (mostly the engine) is telling sometimes. They're both good 'Mechs.
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Don't forget that they were supposed to be used by the Manei-Domini who don't suffer penalties for using small cockpits.
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Don't forget that they were supposed to be used by the Manei-Domini who don't suffer penalties for using small cockpits.
Not all the Devas were the MD type with the VDNI system. More to the point, it's kind of hard to compare the machines directly when you add in all the MD advantages.
Still, it's something to keep in mind when you talk about actually breaking the things out for a scenario.
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Because of course that single vague interpretation must mean the the FWL has several different home-built Omni designs.
Who said several in insignificant, at least 1 in insignificant would justify that phrase. Aside from that, for all we know its a Quickdraw omnified that drops 2 tons of armor for pod space.
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I think the biggest difference between the Celestials and the other IS omnimechs is the direction that informed the design. Many of the 1st Gen IS omnis were intended to ape Clan omniechs (like the Avatar and Sunder) or make an older design more flexible and useful (like the Firestarter and Blackjack). On the other hand, the Celestials were in large part designed to work together and complement each other. The Celestials like the Deva may lack some of the flexibility of something like the Avatar with its near 50% pod space and wide open crits, but its easier for Deva to get away with it because there is usually another Celestial that can cover for its weaknesses.
Cheers,
LCC
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Masters and Minions, TRs '75, '85, and '85 Supplemental, just to start.
To clarify, are you talking about FedSuns production generally, or New Valencia specifically? I had thought you meant the latter, but when I went back and looked it looks like the former, in which case you'll get no argument from me.
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I think the biggest difference between the Celestials and the other IS omnimechs is the direction that informed the design. Many of the 1st Gen IS omnis were intended to ape Clan omniechs (like the Avatar and Sunder) or make an older design more flexible and useful (like the Firestarter and Blackjack). On the other hand, the Celestials were in large part designed to work together and complement each other. The Celestials like the Deva may lack some of the flexibility of something like the Avatar with its near 50% pod space and wide open crits, but its easier for Deva to get away with it because there is usually another Celestial that can cover for its weaknesses.
Cheers,
LCC
I really like your comment on the Avatar, 34 tons with all that open space is extremely useful, much more so than the Deva's 28 tons with much tighter confines.
The Avatar may be old (among IS OmniMechs) but it's still what I think of when I think of IS Omnis. I've had plenty of fun creating custom loadouts for it and trying to deal with its eccentricities.
As a side note what you said above regarding the Celestial Mech's need for teamwork is a great reason to discourage my players from using Celestials; team work is not always their strong suit and they know it... but that's OT and in regards to another (now locked) thread.
Getting back to the "new tech" vs. "old tech" for OmniMechs subject:
So really, as far as OmniMechs go are the Inner Sphere toys that can't be pod mounted worthwhile? Is TSM a good idea on an Omni? What about the advanced gyros? The HD gyro on the Deva makes sense to me but I'm starting to have some doubts about using it on something that has a standard cockpit. I guess what I'm wondering is if it really is a big deal that IS OmniMechs (besides the Celestials) have yet to reach their next generation. Just when I think I feel strongly one way or another something changes my mind.
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Something to think about:
Thanks to Golden Century, we have our first look at the Clan 1st Generation OmniMechs (Coyotl and Woodsman), and
I know I, at least, would be inclined to field either of those over some of the later generation OmniMechs. The same
can be said for the 1st Generation Inner Sphere OmniMechs. Of those we have the Raptor, the Black Hawk KU, the Avatar,
and the Sunder, all, in my opinion, the finest examples of the Inner Sphere OmniMech. The Clan Second Generation included
the Hellbringer, while the IS Second Generation included the Perseus. However, the Inner Sphere's second generation also
included the Hauptman and MenShen, while the Clan Second Generation included the Timber Wolf and Summoner, the first
actual improvements over 1st Generation Omnis. However, we have the example of the Clan 3rd Generation OmniMech in
the Dire Wolf, Turkina, and a few others, and, with 3075 and 3085, we see the first Clan 4th Generation Omnis(I find it interesting
that the 4th Generation Clan Omnis are: Ghost Bear, Coyote, Jade Falcon, and Hell's Horses...no 4th Generation Wolf Omni)
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To clarify, are you talking about FedSuns production generally, or New Valencia specifically? I had thought you meant the latter, but when I went back and looked it looks like the former, in which case you'll get no argument from me.
There's a now-deleted section of the thread where it was claimed all of the Suns' production facilities had been destroyed unless it was specified in a recent source they had survived, with the strong implication it was pretty much all gone any way. With that context removed, yeah, I get where you're coming from.
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So really, as far as OmniMechs go are the Inner Sphere toys that can't be pod mounted worthwhile? Is TSM a good idea on an Omni? What about the advanced gyros? The HD gyro on the Deva makes sense to me but I'm starting to have some doubts about using it on something that has a standard cockpit. I guess what I'm wondering is if it really is a big deal that IS OmniMechs (besides the Celestials) have yet to reach their next generation. Just when I think I feel strongly one way or another something changes my mind.
I personally wouldn't want to put TSM onto an omni, it's a very specialized system that eats up valuable internals (though no more than an XL engine does). As far as Gyros go, the one I'd be most inclined to use would be the Compact, as it gives more space and thus more flexibility.
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As to the question of newer technologies in IS OmniMech production; How do you think the Celestials compare to other IS OmniMechs of the same or similar weight?
For example the Avatar versus the Deva; both are 70 tons but (IMHO) drastically different. I like the Deva's toughness but hate the small cockpit and endo-steel. Which do you consider better? Are the technologies used in the Deva (and other Celestials) worth it?
Well, the only one of the Celestials I would consider straight out fail is the Grigori, an XL gyro on a heavy mech is not a good idea. It is more forgivable on the light Malak.
As for comparing with others of the same weight class, I have mostly done this in the light class, where it seems to me that Raptor, Malak and Arctic Fox are all contenders for the title of best IS light omni.
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Tends to happen when your only other competition is the Owens...
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Tends to happen when your only other competition is the Owens...
For what it does, the Owens is very good....The problem is, of course, that the Owens
is a specialized OmniMech...If you were to compare it to 'mechs like the Raven, though,
would you still say it was bad?
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The problem with the Owens is that it defeats the point of having an OmniMech. Fixing almost a quarter of the available payload locks it into a single role, and since the Combine already has a speedy light spotter in the Hitman, doesn't really add anything to the equation by doing so. If the fixed gear was removed, the Heat Sinks upgraded to Doubles, and Endo Steel was added it would be formidable.
It actually hampers the Free Worlds League, as they don't have C3 in the numbers to take advantage of that fixed item- but then, even the Combine is only fielding one C3 company per regiment on average, with other Lance-sized networks scattered about, per FM: DC.
As it is, only those without access to a dedicated EW platform of their own are gaining from the Owens. IMO the Owens would have been better as a single 'Mech based on one chassis, just with one variant intended for ranged combat and the other for close support.
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You don't even need the endo-steel. It'd be nice - 12 tons of podspace on a tough 8/12 chassis is always nice - but 10.5 tons of pod space is nothing to sneeze at.
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The Owens would be a bit more excusable if it was cheaper. As it is now, it is one of the most expensive IS light mechs, and most expensive light Omni: Owens Prime - 7.8M, Malak Prime - 6.6M, Arctic Fox Prime - 5.1M, Raptor Prime - 3.9M.
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To the people ragging on the Owens...
If you were a MechWarrior, and you were told "You can have a standard Early Clan Invasion Raven or you can have an Owens."
Which would you choose? Remember that the Owens and the Raven have the distinctions of being the among the few dedicated
EW lights. The perception of the Owens as bad is simply because people do not appreciate the design. No..I take that back..the
people who think the Owens is bad hate it because it is not optimized. Now, I admit, it is not a perfect design. It is one where
the standard configurations are a bit wonkey(and I still wonder why it does not have a 4 medium lasers, 1 SRM 4 configuration).
However, its stock configurations: the Prime is an LCT 1M with EW capabilities, and armour, the A is Anti-infantry. B is Anti-Vehicle.
C is the best configuration for mech hunting, while D? It runs out, narcs, runs for cover, and lets the rest of the Lance throw LRMs at
the problem(though I would load the SRM with inferno to strike at Battle armour, and heat-hog mechs). E is a harrassment unit. None
of the configurations are perfect(D would have been better with an extra ton of NARC ammo, and 2 medium lasers, for example, A would
have been better dropping the MGs for 2 Medium Lasers. B: 2 Mediums instead of the smalls, and e with 3 Mediums). But, the design is
good. Heck..what can we do with those 7 tons? How about 2 Light PPCs and Medium Laser? How about tossing in a Guardiam ECM, ER Small
Laser, and a Large Laser? The Owens is NOT a bad 'mech. It is just a specialized OmniMech.
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I think the main knock people have on the Owens is what you just summed up with:
It is just a specialized OmniMech.
The strength of omnimechs is their flexibility, the Owens could do everything it does now and more just by unfixing the EW equipment. I can excuse the SHS because its a COmbine mech.
Cheers,
LCC
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I can't excuse that so readily, not on an Omni. By the time the Owens was built, LAW was in possession of two distinct sets of engineering reports that should have made it very clear this was not a road they should have gone down - complaints from the PNT-10K pilots about the ER PPC and the Raptor test program's results. The Owens was needlessly handicapped by that, particularly with the fixed equipment load that, when combined, dead-ends it into being an electronics specialist with the payload capabilities of 'Mechs ten and fifteen tons lighter. Combining them shot the real potential of the design in the left foot, reloaded, and then shot the other foot. And then they shot it in the left foot again with some of the configurations, which as I commented above, sometimes give me the impression they were assembled by dumping a spare parts bin out.
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Given how desperate the IS was at that time (with the Crusader Clans possibly ready to break the truce), dump the spare parts bin on whatever you've got may actually have been their strategy at the time.
Cheers,
LCC
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The Owens is not an ideal omnimech, rather it is a practical omnimech. It was practical for the DCMS and FWLM in that it provided a battle armor taxi and a spotter all in one. For the DCMS it integrates C3 and TAG electronics in addition to being a taxi making it quite useful as a multi-mission mech, and for the League it is focused on spotting and taxiing. One could argue that it would be easy to add podspace, but a more careful look at the mech shows an attempt to actually avoid having such luxuries, possibly to keep mechwarriors from getting grandiose ideas, and possibly to lower its price tag. In other words the podspace part of the omni was not as great a concern as the making of a mech that can bring the new elements of warfare to bare without giving mechwarriors enough firepower to encourage them to jump in with the brawlers and possibly lose.
Now Moonsword I will attempt to define what you would consider an ideal omnimech, and you can correct me if I am wrong. I think you believe an ideal omnimech tries to free up the most space whilst maintaining sufficient open crits to allow for as much diversity as the pilot can think of. The rest of the mech is to be judged like any other biped mech. Fixed weapons are to be minimal at most, and I am guessing you are okay with a limited number of fixed items so long as they conform to the above rules(IE put the TAG in the head so it does not disrupt space elsewhere). Am I correct?
If so of these traits, the Owens does poorly in important fields. It would have too much fixed equipment to allow for much diversity, does not try to free up space through things like an Endo Steel internal structure, though it does have an XL engine which if the fixed equipment were dropped would give the Owens a useful 10.5 tons of podspace. The standard mech speed is passable, though it could use jump jets to score above that grade. It gets an A in open crits/free tonnage, though its fixed equipment could have been neater had they moved the probe to the CT as a crit sink. The lack of podspace and the overabundance of fixed equipment is what does it in for you even before judging its configurations for what it has.
Here is why I think it is practical. As I said earlier the militarise wished to integrate their important new toys into their forces, and one of the shiniest was the TAG. Sure many Combine warriors needed drinks to keep piloting an Owens, but it offered militarise a TAG equipped mech that could work well in combined arms warfare even if it did not exemplify the type of omni mechwarriors dreamed of piloting. It gave them a mech with passable speed, the ability to transport their new battle armor toys by mech, and the ability to spot. It was not meant for much more. The fact that it is armored armored as well as it is tells me they wanted the spotter to take a few hits even if they could not return the favor as hard.
Your argument that an APC could transport the Battle armor is not without merit, but a lance of Owens carrying battle armor could perform some scary ambushes. They are also capable of scouting.
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You could get that cheaper and easier from a VTOL.
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Or a hovercraft. You don't need a 'Mech to do any of this. For that matter, both of them had an increasing number of spotters coming into the field anyway.
I've pretty clearly stated my problems with the Owens - between the fixed equipment and the single heat sinks, LAW dead-ended the design into being a specialist, negating the main point of being an OmniMech. The DHS is particularly boneheaded since it prevents a lot of possible configurations to maximize the design's potential even with the fixed equipment and, fundamentally, is probably the worse of the two decisions. Yes, it's fine for moving BA around or spotting. I've known that for years. The fact that you can make lemonade doesn't mean you're not being handed a lemon.
EDIT: This just got circular, considering I just said things I said four pages ago. I'm done with this specific area of the IS OmniMech phenomenon.
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The Hitman predates the Owens and offers the same TAG and Active Probe. It does lack a C3 Slave, though this can be easily remedied by a simple field refit. Other options, like a field-refitted Mongoose are also possible if you really want that electronics mix.
If the Owens had been an Omni-Jenner (which would have made sense...) using a 280XL, Endo Steel, 11 fixed DHS and 10.5 (or 11, it can afford to shed 7 points of armour, or 11.5/12 if you feel the freebie DHS is a waste) tons of pod space, that would be worthwhile. Not only can you get all the Owens configurations into it, you can do a lot more besides, such as an 8/12/8 mover with all the electronics items available (save NARC) and dual medium lasers. Spider, Panther, Jenner, Hitman all in one.
It would in fact be so good you could phase out the Raptor, which was initially intended only as a proof-of-concept design. It'd also come within a hair's breadth of obsoleting the Strider.
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A DHS Strider wouldn't be so threatened by it - while it wouldn't have the speed, the lack of an XLFE would make it the cheaper budget model, sort of like buying a panel van instead of a Hummer.
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A DHS Strider wouldn't be so threatened by it - while it wouldn't have the speed, the lack of an XLFE would make it the cheaper budget model, sort of like buying a panel van instead of a Hummer.
What year, make, and model panel van? ;D
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1995 Ford Econoline.
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Is it down by the river?
*runs*
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Is it down by the river?
Only if he's living in it and giving motivational speeches about living in it DOWN BY THE RIVER.
I miss that character. :'(
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since the very first battlemech of the 1st Star League, hundreds of years ago, the IS has only had battlemechs, not omnimechs, and thus over time, have perfected the use of stock mechs in lance teams...omni tanks would be good for support though, point I am trying to make is, how ever old the factions of the IS are, they have "grown up" with battlemech tech, omni, recently (3060), is a new thing
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since the very first battlemech of the 1st Star League, hundreds of years ago, the IS has only had battlemechs, not omnimechs, and thus over time, have perfected the use of stock mechs in lance teams...omni tanks would be good for support though, point I am trying to make is, how ever old the factions of the IS are, they have "grown up" with battlemech tech, omni, recently (3060), is a new thing
That'd be 3052...
Or at least, it is for the Glorious Draconis Combine.