BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Deathknight69 on 16 August 2017, 03:33:42
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I'm putting this here for an easy (hopefully) answer-able discussion:
Why is it that only Omni-Mechs can transport B.A.'d inf. on to the modern battlefield ?? Qui-aff ??
Keep the response's civil plz.
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IIRC, it's due to the programming of the Omni's gyro which is used to having oddly balanced loads with each configuration. Keep in mind I'm working strictly off memory here.
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I have seen that gyro explanation somewhere also, but then it doesn't explain why a regular mech can carry BA that are equipped with magnetic clamps.
A better reason why omnis are equipped to carry BAs, I think, would be that they were both developed around the same time and that there was not enough BA to justify retrofitting standard mechs.
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I have seen that gyro explanation somewhere also, but then it doesn't explain why a regular mech can carry BA that are equipped with magnetic clamps.
A better reason why omnis are equipped to carry BAs, I think, would be that they were both developed around the same time and that there was not enough BA to justify retrofitting standard mechs.
Or that the Clans were producing mostly OmniMechs, and saw no reason to bring in their BattleMechs for a Battle Armor carrying refit.
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I have seen that gyro explanation somewhere also, but then it doesn't explain why a regular mech can carry BA that are equipped with magnetic clamps.
A better reason why omnis are equipped to carry BAs, I think, would be that they were both developed around the same time and that there was not enough BA to justify retrofitting standard mechs.
Regular BattleMechs carrying BA via magnetic clamps take a speed hit because of the extra tonnage. Omnis are able to avoid that thanks to the gyro.
As far as there being no need, that doesn't hold up too well in the Clans, where second-line formations without Omnis still have to move BA around somehow, and BA is much more widespread than Omnis are in the Inner Sphere.
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Regular BattleMechs carrying BA via magnetic clamps take a speed hit because of the extra tonnage. Omnis are able to avoid that thanks to the gyro.
As far as there being no need, that doesn't hold up too well in the Clans, where second-line formations without Omnis still have to move BA around somehow, and BA is much more widespread than Omnis are in the Inner Sphere.
Is the speed thing a new rule? I remember something about cargo, but I thought speed was not effected by just 4 or 5 tons, or it was a percentage of the mechs weight.
I have been out of the game for awhile and just now getting back into it.
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Is the speed thing a new rule? I remember something about cargo, but I thought speed was not effected by just 4 or 5 tons, or it was a percentage of the mechs weight.
I have been out of the game for awhile and just now getting back into it.
As far as I can tell, that rule has been in TW since it was released. Looking at the BMRr, I don't think it's in there but someone more familiar with that edition of the rules may be able to give you a more definitive answer.
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From BMRr
Only OmniMechs can carry battle armor units in this way
Edit: The first mention that I can find for Magnetic Clamps for non-omni BA transport is from the Classic BattleTech Companion (c.2003), pg 174. In this first version, the clamps do not appear to cause a movement penalty to the carrying mech.
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As far as I can tell, that rule has been in TW since it was released. Looking at the BMRr, I don't think it's in there but someone more familiar with that edition of the rules may be able to give you a more definilltive answer.
Just picked up TW last month, I will give it a closer look.
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Amusingly swarming infantry don't seem to reduce speed. So swarm your own mechs :-)
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This why i love kobold iic's, they transport themselves ^_^.
Everyone else has all ready stated the reasons why, so all i can offer is this....
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The fluff reason I remember, besides the gyro, is that Omnis are built with various claw/footholds built into the omnis themselves, while conventional ‘Mechs don’t have these.
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The fluff reason I remember, besides the gyro, is that Omnis are built with various claw/footholds built into the omnis themselves, while conventional ‘Mechs don’t have these.
Yes. But why BA handholds aren't a standard manufacturing consideration on most mechs by 3060... [blank]
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It's clear that the core rules concept is that BA plus Omnis are superior to magclamp suits plus regular mechs.
If you assume that to be an ironclad law passed down from on high, what fluff would you write to justify it?
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I thought it had something to do with Omni gyros varying from non-Omni gyros. In other words, an Omni's gyro has to account for tonnage shifting around based on which pods are placed where. Thus, they can account better for the shifting mass of carrying a point of BA. However, standard 'Mechs don't have that pod-shifting feature, and the gyro is less "flexible" in terms of dealing with weight being placed in new locations.
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Except standard gyros do have to deal with rapidly shifting weights.
There is no PSR if an Awesome loses an arm. Hell there are not even penalties to PSRs for losing an arm.
So it is a rule that makes no sense. With everything else Omnimechs do I don't even see it cutting into the Omnimech's advantages enough to be a big deal.
From a fluff perspective I can see there being a period where standard mechs couldn't because of the lack of appropriate design features as Battle Armor weren't a thing when most mechs were designed or there being doctrinal decisions that standard mechs should not be Battle Armor carriers but that does beg the question why should Omnimechs.
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Yes. But why BA handholds aren't a standard manufacturing consideration on most mechs by 3060... [blank]
Because doing so would open up a rift in the space-time continuum that would cause hostile, sentient alien life to invade the BTU. It's the same reason they can't put double heatsinks on tanks.
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Because doing so would open up a rift in the space-time continuum that would cause hostile, sentient alien life to invade the BTU. It's the same reason they can't put double heatsinks on tanks.
Well you know what they say. The simplest answer is usually the correct one.
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Except standard gyros do have to deal with rapidly shifting weights.
There is no PSR if an Awesome loses an arm. Hell there are not even penalties to PSRs for losing an arm.
So it is a rule that makes no sense. With everything else Omnimechs do I don't even see it cutting into the Omnimech's advantages enough to be a big deal.
From a fluff perspective I can see there being a period where standard mechs couldn't because of the lack of appropriate design features as Battle Armor weren't a thing when most mechs were designed or there being doctrinal decisions that standard mechs should not be Battle Armor carriers but that does beg the question why should Omnimechs.
Actually, standard gyros can handle slowly shifting weights. If one point of damage causes that Awesome to lose the arm, there's no PSR, but in that case the arm was already beat to heck. If it took a shot from an AC-20 to destroy the arm, then yes it does take a PSR (20+ damage).
A point of Clan battle armor ranges from 2 tons (5x 400kg PAL suits) up to 7.5 tons (5x Heavy BA suits) for OmniMechs. An IS battle armor squad would have weights of 1.6 tons to 6 tons. When a 'Mech takes 20+ points of damage it must make a PSR. And 20 points of standard armor is 1.25 tons. Even the lightest (PAL Suits) of battle armor units is heavier than the amount of armor lost to force a PSR.
Now, I doubt anyone ever thought of this when they were writing the rules, but it works out nicely after the fact.
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Actually, standard gyros can handle slowly shifting weights. If one point of damage causes that Awesome to lose the arm, there's no PSR, but in that case the arm was already beat to heck. If it took a shot from an AC-20 to destroy the arm, then yes it does take a PSR (20+ damage).
A point of Clan battle armor ranges from 2 tons (5x 400kg PAL suits) up to 7.5 tons (5x Heavy BA suits) for OmniMechs. An IS battle armor squad would have weights of 1.6 tons to 6 tons. When a 'Mech takes 20+ points of damage it must make a PSR. And 20 points of standard armor is 1.25 tons. Even the lightest (PAL Suits) of battle armor units is heavier than the amount of armor lost to force a PSR.
Now, I doubt anyone ever thought of this when they were writing the rules, but it works out nicely after the fact.
Your right but an Omni with its fancy gyro that can handle BA jumping on and off has to make the same PSRs.
Maybe the problem is the magnetic clamps, and the carrier just needs to slow down so they don't bounce off. While an Omni has more secure hand and foot holds.
Maybe TPTB can make BA Carrier a design quirk that can be added to Mechs and vehicles.
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Your right but an Omni with its fancy gyro that can handle BA jumping on and off has to make the same PSRs.
Because it's designed to accommodate BA jumping on and off but not every permutation of significant battle damage.
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An Awesome can lose a pristine arm to a single LBX pellet TAC that rolls 12 on the crit table. No PSR.
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An Awesome can lose a pristine arm to a single LBX pellet TAC that rolls 12 on the crit table. No PSR.
*nod*
The standard mech's gyro is rather underestimated in it's ability to handle rapidly shifting weight with what the rules say it can handle without PSRs or PSR modifiers.
Another point of evidence that they can is found in the rules for carrying external cargo. A mech can dump cargo and not suffer any ill effects. As such one can not even argue that the gyro was programmed/re-tuned to handle the extra weight.
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An Awesome can lose a pristine arm to a single LBX pellet TAC that rolls 12 on the crit table. No PSR.
Well now we're talking house rules....
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Well now we're talking house rules....
No, just the floating crit rule.
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Or any number of situations where an arm can be lost very rapidly without sustaining enough damage to force a PSR.
As a better example of such a situation say a fresh JM6-S Jager mech takes a Gauss Rifle to the arm and no other damage that turn. It is not enough to force the 20+ damage or outright destroy the arm but if a 12 is rolled on the critical check that is now 14 tons very rapidly detached from the mech.
Even an empty arm would be a substantial shift of weight.
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No, just the floating crit rule.
What page is that on in TW?
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There's a big difference between advanced rules and house rules and I know you know it, Kit.
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It's all optional to me.
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What page is that on in TW?
BMM Pg 45
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It's all optional to me.
And actually not true.
The lost arm would mean 20+ damage, which means: PSR.
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Floating crits may be Tactical Operations but it is a rule published by CGL.
Even so I did just post two examples that takes no optional rules and if pressed I'm certain I can come up with more for how a standard mech can suddenly shift weight with no ill effect.
As such it seems a bit silly that they can't handle Battle Armor on a technological basis.
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Floating crits may be Tactical Operations but it is a rule published by CGL.
Even so I did just post two examples that takes no optional rules and if pressed I'm certain I can come up with more for how a standard mech can suddenly shift weight with no ill effect.
As such it seems a bit silly that they can't handle Battle Armor on a technological basis.
Actually, you are wrong about that.
Losing the arm means, the Mech took 20+ damage and has to make a PSR.
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Actually, you are wrong about that.
Losing the arm means, the Mech took 20+ damage and has to make a PSR.
Or any number of situations where an arm can be lost very rapidly without sustaining enough damage to force a PSR.
As a better example of such a situation say a fresh JM6-S Jager mech takes a Gauss Rifle to the arm and no other damage that turn. It is not enough to force the 20+ damage or outright destroy the arm but if a 12 is rolled on the critical check that is now 14 tons very rapidly detached from the mech.
Even an empty arm would be a substantial shift of weight.
Seems I found at least one situation where it does not take 20+ damage.
I can find more if that isn't enough.
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Seems I found at least one situation where it does not take 20+ damage.
I can find more if that isn't enough.
Nope, rolling a twelve means the full arm is lost. If that arm has enough internal strucuture left to reach 20 points of damage, that is a PSR.
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I don't see that anywhere in Total Warfare.
This is all I can find:
Arm Blown Off (Arm)
This critical hit occurs when the player rolls a 12 on the
Determining Critical Hits Table, if the location hit is an arm, and
is automatic (the player rolling the critical hits cannot choose
to roll the three critical hits instead). The hit blows the arm off,
and the weapons and equipment mounted in that arm are no
longer available to the ’Mech. The arm may be picked up and
used as a club per the rules for Club Attacks, p. 145.
Even if I am missing something there are mechs that can't sustain 20+ damage and lose their arm in such a fashion.
So feel free to provide a citation.
If you cannot I am at a point of expecting an apology.
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I don't see that anywhere in Total Warfare.
This is all I can find:
Arm Blown Off (Arm)
This critical hit occurs when the player rolls a 12 on the
Determining Critical Hits Table, if the location hit is an arm, and
is automatic (the player rolling the critical hits cannot choose
to roll the three critical hits instead). The hit blows the arm off,
and the weapons and equipment mounted in that arm are no
longer available to the ’Mech. The arm may be picked up and
used as a club per the rules for Club Attacks, p. 145.
Even if I am missing something there are mechs that can't sustain 20+ damage and lose their arm in such a fashion.
So feel free to provide a citation.
If you cannot I am at a point of expecting an apology.
You look at the wrong section and expecting an apology is somewhat offensive, since I haven't insulted you, just pointed out where you misunderstood something.
The rule for a PSR because of 20+ Damage is quite simple: You took 20+ damage, you make a PSR. (TW page 60) Nowhere is it stated, that that damage must come directly from weapon attacks or other kind of attacks. No damage and an ammo explosion because of heat that causes 20+ damage (assuming you survived)? PSR (except if you have CASE II, because that reduces the damage).
An arm that is taken of through a crit roll requires you to mark of enough bubbles that you have reached 20+ in a single phase? PSR.
If you doubt me, ask the question in the rules questions forums, you will get the same answer.
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Except the rule I quoted indicates nothing about remaining internal structure counting for the purposes of making a PSR for 20+ damage and in fact implies that the arm is still intact enough to use as a club. Something that does not happen when a limb is destroyed by damage.
Also reading through page 60 it seems to only consider the damage actually done and likewise makes no mention of the remaining intact internal structure counting for the purposes of having received 20+ damage in the case of an arm being severed through a critical roll result of 12.
So nothing you have pointed to says I am wrong and actually implies you are the one failing to understand correctly.
Nor has anything you pointed to exclude the other possible scenarios. Like what if a mech can't even take 20+ damage and loses an arm without taking 20+ damage.
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Except the rule I quoted indicates nothing about remaining internal structure counting for the purposes of making a PSR for 20+ damage and in fact implies that the arm is still intact enough to use as a club. Something that does not happen when a limb is destroyed by damage.
Also reading through page 60 it seems to only consider the damage actually done and likewise makes no mention of the remaining intact internal structure counting for the purposes of having received 20+ damage in the case of an arm being severed through a critical roll result of 12.
So nothing you have pointed to says I am wrong and actually implies you are the one failing to understand correctly.
Nor has anything you pointed to exclude the other possible scenarios. Like what if a mech can't even take 20+ damage and loses an arm without taking 20+ damage.
The arm has enough internal structure left to raise the number of damage take to 20+? Congratulations, you take 20+ damage. I really don't see what is so hard to understand.
And as I said before: If you think I'm wrong, ask in the rules question forums. I'm 90% certain we answered that question before, so you will receive the same answer we gave back then.
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Except it is explicitly stated damage done via subsequent physical attacks start the counter for damage at 0 again. Which at the very least implies that the left over internal structure does not count if severed via a 12 result.
Also the fact that page 125 explicitly says that the arm can be picked up and used as a club indicates that the internal structure is still there and thus should not count as damage done to the mech.
Also the JM6-S Jagermech scenario I've been using only has 16 total damage capacity on it's arms. So even if I am wrong(which I have asked about and if I am wrong I will admit it and apologize for wasting everyone's time) there are clearly scenarios where a mech can suddenly lose a lot of weight and suffer no ill effect as far as PSRs are concerned.
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You are both going to calm down and step away from the discussion right now.
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If I may interject and get back to the original question...
Battle Armor must be of the Mechanized variety in order to mount Omnimechs. (Tech Manual p.167 to investigate some of the restrictions/limitations). The section includes information regarding Magnetic clamps - which should not be confused with magnetic claws (such as those on the Salamander BA)... the difference being that clamps allow non-omni transport, claws modified the target number for anti-mech attacks.
As for the difference between Omni and Standard Manufacturing? The "hand-holds" theory stands out as being the most acceptable fluff in my opinion: it gives the mechanized BA something to grip and then be carried into battle (I'm thinking of a Fire Truck with extra men riding on top, as a modest, modern example). From the basic manipulator to a vibroclaw, whatever the Battle Armor use should have little to no impact on the performance of a given Omni... so I would leave anything regarding the gyro out.
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