Did Focht know about the Thomas Marik duplicate?

[Trailblazer]

This is something that's not clear to me from the fiction and sourcebooks (though I can't claim to have read everything).  Focht was Precentor ROM in 3035 (until that December, according to Era Report 3052), when Thomas was wounded by a bomb, taken to a ComStar hospital, and (presumably) while work on the duplicate began.  It's hard to believe that the duplicate project, and the real Thomas's survival and flight into hiding, would escape his notice.  But he doesn't act like he knows that the Clan Invasion-era Thomas is a fake.  Nor does he anticipate the threat from the real Thomas/Master prior to the Jihad.

All of this would make more sense if Charles Seneca had started as Precentor ROM early in '35.  With Focht as the new Precentor Martial, it would be much easier for him to have missed the whole conspiracy surrounding Thomas.

[abou]

Focht's position in ComStar has always been interesting to me.  It seems ComStar always had some seedier inner circle where knowledge is carefully passed among key members and not just a group such as the First Circuit.  Just look at the last book in the original Grey Death Trilogy.  Focht - at least until he developed enough cred after the Tukayyid victory - seems to have been a tool for this inner circle of ComStar rather than a policy maker.  As such, I imagine there was a lot he didn't know about.

[Arkansas Warrior]

You'd think he would have, but he doesn't seem to have.  I mean, you'd think there'd be a scene somewhere where Focht tells new PM Vic "Hey, by the way, there's something you need to know about the C-G." and Victor responds "Yeah, actually I figured it out during the whole Guerrero debacle."

[Alan Grant]

I don't think he knew, just like he didn't know about Operation Scorpion.

Frankly I think given Focht's real identity, there might have been concerns over how he might someday use that information. Fake Thomas Marik was (intended to be) a tool of ComStar, but so was Focht. Had the need and opportunity presented itself, they would have put him on the Tharkad throne (they discussed doing exactly that at one point). If that happened, his own independent power would have been substantial, so it was critical that he didn't know about Thomas Marik. That would give him and the Lyrans too much power to cripple or blackmail fake Thomas Marik and the FWL.

[JadeHellbringer]

I don't think he knew, just like he didn't know about Operation Scorpion.

Frankly I think given Focht's real identity, there might have been concerns over how he might someday use that information. Fake Thomas Marik was (intended to be) a tool of ComStar, but so was Focht. Had the need and opportunity presented itself, they would have put him on the Tharkad throne (they discussed doing exactly that at one point). If that happened, his own independent power would have been substantial, so it was critical that he didn't know about Thomas Marik. That would give him and the Lyrans too much power to cripple or blackmail fake Thomas Marik and the FWL.

Couldn't have said it better myself. With his lineage, I'd be very, VERY careful what information 'Focht' gets exposed to. A big ace-in-the-hole nugget of info like the fake Thomas, what with Steiner and Marik not being exactly friendly... yeah, that could go very badly if 'Focht' gets that info, then becomes Archon (or at least winds up back with the Lyran realm).

[Arkansas Warrior]

Indeed, that is a good point.  Neither pawn need know of the other.

[Stormfury]

Focht may have known that Thomas Marik wasn't the real thing.

He clearly had no idea about the existence of The Master and the WoB cabal, though.

[Nav_Alpha]

I'd be veeeeeery surprised if he knew anything at all about it.
As everyone has already stated: he was soley a tool, an ace in the hole to be used either to usurp the Lyrans.

I would think, based on his role with the ComGuards that the only "secrets" he was entrusted with would be military-wise. Ie: secret locations of caches, etc

[Frabby]

Focht's entry into ComStar was the next best thing to a mercenary and, as others have said, he was (at least initially) just a pawn of other power circles within ComStar.

False Thomas Marik was raised and trained on Jardine, and real Thomas Marik was also brought to Jardine (and not just some ComStar hospital). That alone probably guarantees that the double ploy was known only to The Blood who ran The Five Hidden Worlds.

Although sitting in separate branches of ComStar (which alone might preclude Focht's knowledge), both real and fake Thomas Marik probably sat a notch or two above the Steiner General that Waterly had purchased to whip her nascent idle-for-centuries military into shape so that they had a chance against the Clans.
Which, of course, makes you wonder why The Five didn't spill out their secrets against the Clans on Tukayyid. After preparing for the Clan Invasion for literally centuries, they missed the event by some 10-20 years and were caught totally unprepared? Really?

[Stormfury]

That assumes that the Blood are both real and descendants of the Wolverines, neither of which we know to be the case. My money is still very much on the Blood stuff in Blake Documents being a complete snow job from Chandrasekhar Kurita to ensure that the Clans would go all-out against the Word of Blake.

It also assumes that the (proto) Word of Blake actually cared about the Clans instead of the real prize ComStar was always angling for- dominion of the Sphere. Even with heavy WMD usage, the Word simply lacks the numbers to have a real go at the Invading Clans, never mind the Home Clans on top of that the way they were allegedly preparing to go for.

Focht may not have known about Thomas Marik being a fake when he got the job, but after Victor ran the tests I can see that information filtering through to him.

[roosterboy]

False Thomas Marik was raised and trained on Jardine

According to...?

[snewsom2997]

The real Thomas Marik was from in the Comstar Family, he was a younger sibling and never thought he would rule so joined the order IIRC, Focht was adopted, for lack of a better term, so I think he was kept in the dark about a great many things, especially programs begun before his tenure. Comstar seemed just as likely to delete their own databases as they were other Houses Databases. ROM kept a great many secrets, destroyed the evidence of others, and rather successfully controlled information.

[Trailblazer]

This all makes sense about Focht being a pawn who secrets were kept from.  The only part that doesn't fit so well is his being Precentor ROM.  If anybody, anywhere has a privileged position to know anything going on in ComStar, it's the head of their intelligence agency!  If he was supposed to be kept out of the loop, why put all the shady ROM agents who were carrying out the secret plans under his command?

[snewsom2997]

This all makes sense about Focht being a pawn who secrets were kept from.  The only part that doesn't fit so well is his being Precentor ROM.  If anybody, anywhere has a privileged position to know anything going on in ComStar, it's the head of their intelligence agency!  If he was supposed to be kept out of the loop, why put all the shady ROM agents who were carrying out the secret plans under his command?

It appears ROM hides in plain sight, running things from the shadows, the titular head of the agency may not actually be the head of the agency. Secrets are rarely kept in politics, Focht was the political head, and was only given information ROM wanted him to give, and only information they were comfortable being leaked, by the First Circuit.

[A. Lurker]

This all makes sense about Focht being a pawn who secrets were kept from.  The only part that doesn't fit so well is his being Precentor ROM.  If anybody, anywhere has a privileged position to know anything going on in ComStar, it's the head of their intelligence agency!  If he was supposed to be kept out of the loop, why put all the shady ROM agents who were carrying out the secret plans under his command?

Well, in dealing with the shady world of intelligence agencies it's not always wise to take things too much for granted. Even when he was formally Precentor ROM -- was ROM really his to command, or was he just a figurehead being humored by the agency while they reported to their actual bosses behind his back?

[Stormfury]

Focht was only Precentor ROM because that position traditionally headed ComStar's military.

As the compromised ISF, ComStar ROM, and even Maskirovka of the late 3020s all demonstrate, merely being in charge of an intelligence agency does not mean you actually know what it is up to, never mind the state at large.

[Frabby]

False Thomas Marik was raised and trained on Jardine

According to...?

According to himself. I think it's in the story where he is ousted from the Captain-Generalcy in Blake Ascending, but it may also be in some infobox narrating how his expedition arrives at Jardine late in the Jihad only to find the world undone by a traps volcano.

[roosterboy]

According to himself. I think it's in the story where he is ousted from the Captain-Generalcy in Blake Ascending, but it may also be in some infobox narrating how his expedition arrives at Jardine late in the Jihad only to find the world undone by a traps volcano.

Fake Thomas never claims to be a native of Jardine.

[Frabby]

Fake Thomas never claims to be a native of Jardine.

I didn't say that. But fake Thomas does have memories of his time on Jardine when he trained there; he's been to Jardine before for an extended stay.
I'll have to dig out that piece of fiction to be sure, but as far as I remember that was the gist of it.

[roosterboy]

I didn't say that.

How else should "False Thomas Marik was raised and trained on Jardine" be taken, then?

[five_corparty]

Even with heavy WMD usage, the Word simply lacks the numbers to have a real go at the Invading Clans, never mind the Home Clans on top of that the way they were allegedly preparing to go for.

Actually- and this really deserves its own thread- I think the Word could have taken the Invading clans, assuming (at the minimum) vows of neutrality from the Inner Sphere.

now, gone on to take on the Adders, vipers, etc.?  nah, a bridge too far.

otherwise, agree with everything above- two pawns, no contact, etc.  O0

[Gunslinger]

How else should "False Thomas Marik was raised and trained on Jardine" be taken, then?

Easily. As if he was raised and trained on Jardine. Think Immigrants/refugees/transferred soldiers who brought their newborn to another location.
Born X, raised in Y Happens all the time.

[roosterboy]

Think Immigrants/refugees/transferred soldiers who brought their newborn to another location.
Born X, raised in Y Happens all the time.

And Thomas gives no evidence in any source of that being the case either.

[Archangel]

Easily. As if he was raised and trained on Jardine. Think Immigrants/refugees/transferred soldiers who brought their newborn to another location.
Born X, raised in Y Happens all the time.

We are talking about one of the 'Hidden Worlds' that had extremely limited contact with the mainstream ComStar.  Most of ComStar (and, later, most of the Word of Blake), including members of the First Circuit, didn't even know of Jardine's existence.

[Gunslinger]

And Thomas gives no evidence in any source of that being the case either.

I'm not arguing that. Myself, I was correcting the statement that "raised and trained" has to be taken as "born".

[Stormfury]

Actually- and this really deserves its own thread- I think the Word could have taken the Invading clans, assuming (at the minimum) vows of neutrality from the Inner Sphere.

I've run the numbers several times over multiple threads; the Word lacks the WarShip numbers of the Invading Clans, and even allowing for full strength of all 52 Divisions in '67 (which we know to not be the case, with several undermanned and/or in the process of forming) don't have anything even resembling enough military might to take on more than the battered Wolves.

Not to mention there would never have been a promise of neutrality from the rest of the Sphere, thanks to the freak-show cyber legions, massive WMD bombardment, and general war atrocities they were alledged to have been planning had they carried out their attacks.

I really don't buy the notion that the Word had any intent to attack the Clans, never mind what the Master may have said to the Manei Domini. Everything in the leadup and execution of the Jihad suggest that the true target was the Sphere all along- Scorpion 2.0, essentially.

[Archangel]

I really don't buy the notion that the Word had any intent to attack the Clans, never mind what the Master may have said to the Manei Domini. Everything in the leadup and execution of the Jihad suggest that the true target was the Sphere all along- Scorpion 2.0, essentially.

I guess then the WoB's investments in Waypoint 531, Nueva Castile and the Hanseatic League were just Sunday excursions.  Regardless this line has nothing to do with the OP.

Focht was first appointed as Precentor ROM before becoming the first person to assume the title of Precentor Martial.  In all likelihood the delay was due to Waterly and Focht discussing what the position would entail (responsibilities, powers, etc).  The Precentor ROM has historically been the fallguy when an operation went bad such as the Helm Memory Core or the Mark Civil War.  Prior to the public deployment of the ComGuards in the 3030s there was little need for the position of Precentor Martial as most of the ComGuards remained in the Sol System.  By creating the position the Primus protected herself if there was some backlash in the First Circuit from a failed military operation.

When one brings an outsider into a secretive order, the order will limit the outsiders access to material that could hurt the order.  As the saying going; "Trust is earned, not freely given."  When she appointed Focht as Precentor ROM she most likely had orders in place to limit his access to the Order's innermost secrets especially an already compartmentalized secret as the 'fake' Thomas Marik.   Given that her plans for Focht were for him to turn the ComGuards into the Inner Sphere's foremost military force there was little need for him to have access to that information.  Further evidence in Focht being isolated is shown by Operation Scorpions escaping his notice despite having been Precentor Rom for a reasonably long time.  Upon being appointed Precentor Martial, he was forced to put most of his energy into molding the new ComGuards leaving him little time to actually running ROM.

[Stormfury]

I guess then the WoB's investments in Waypoint 531, Nueva Castile and the Hanseatic League were just Sunday excursions.

Other than gaining them recruiting sources, labour pools, and safe havens for WarShip repair and refit, sure. Complete wastes of time.

Focht was first appointed as Precentor ROM before becoming the first person to assume the title of Precentor Martial.  In all likelihood the delay was due to Waterly and Focht discussing what the position would entail (responsibilities, powers, etc).  The Precentor ROM has historically been the fallguy when an operation went bad such as the Helm Memory Core or the Mark Civil War.  Prior to the public deployment of the ComGuards in the 3030s there was little need for the position of Precentor Martial as most of the ComGuards remained in the Sol System.  By creating the position the Primus protected herself if there was some backlash in the First Circuit from a failed military operation.

When one brings an outsider into a secretive order, the order will limit the outsiders access to material that could hurt the order.  As the saying going; "Trust is earned, not freely given."  When she appointed Focht as Precentor ROM she most likely had orders in place to limit his access to the Order's innermost secrets especially an already compartmentalized secret as the 'fake' Thomas Marik.   Given that her plans for Focht were for him to turn the ComGuards into the Inner Sphere's foremost military force there was little need for him to have access to that information.  Further evidence in Focht being isolated is shown by Operation Scorpions escaping his notice despite having been Precentor Rom for a reasonably long time.  Upon being appointed Precentor Martial, he was forced to put most of his energy into molding the new ComGuards leaving him little time to actually running ROM.

The old ComStar sourcebook describes the position and its evolution. Before the existence of the Com Guard was revealed to the Sphere at large, it was ultimately commanded by the Precentor ROM as part of their purview.

After ComStar recruited Frederick Steiner to gain an experienced commander, the position was changed; Precentor Martial was a new title and had command over both ROM and the Com Guard. The Precentor ROM was subordinate to the Precentor Martial.

[Trailblazer]

When one brings an outsider into a secretive order, the order will limit the outsiders access to material that could hurt the order.  As the saying going; "Trust is earned, not freely given."  When she appointed Focht as Precentor ROM she most likely had orders in place to limit his access to the Order's innermost secrets especially an already compartmentalized secret as the 'fake' Thomas Marik.   Given that her plans for Focht were for him to turn the ComGuards into the Inner Sphere's foremost military force there was little need for him to have access to that information.  Further evidence in Focht being isolated is shown by Operation Scorpions escaping his notice despite having been Precentor Rom for a reasonably long time.  Upon being appointed Precentor Martial, he was forced to put most of his energy into molding the new ComGuards leaving him little time to actually running ROM.

This all makes sense, except that the secret wasn't "already compartmentalized."  The bombing and the hiding of the original Thomas/Master occurred during Focht's term as Precentor ROM.

[roosterboy]

despite having been Precentor Rom for a reasonably long time

Less than a year A year and a half doesn't qualify as "reasonably long time" in anyone's book, I'd imagine.

The bombing and the hiding of the original Thomas/Master occurred during Focht's term as Precentor ROM.

Maybe. Maybe not. Focht was appoint Precentor Martial sometime in 3035, though we don't know the exact date. The bombing took place on 1 June 3035. So either at the very tail end of his brief tenure or after he had already switched over.

Corrected per info below.

[Trailblazer]

The exact date is December '35 (p. 73 of Era Report 3052).

[roosterboy]

The exact date is December '35 (p. 73 of Era Report 3052).

Ah, thanks. I didn't think to look in Seneca's bio.

[Archangel]

Other than gaining them recruiting sources, labour pools, and safe havens for WarShip repair and refit, sure. Complete wastes of time.

And yet despite having enough equipment to supply an entire division no significant recruiting occurred.  You probably want to reread Cameron St. Jamais' report to the Master in FM:U (p200).  At the very least they acquired a key component to Erinyes.

The old ComStar sourcebook describes the position and its evolution. Before the existence of the Com Guard was revealed to the Sphere at large, it was ultimately commanded by the Precentor ROM as part of their purview.

After ComStar recruited Frederick Steiner to gain an experienced commander, the position was changed; Precentor Martial was a new title and had command over both ROM and the Com Guard. The Precentor ROM was subordinate to the Precentor Martial.

The ComGuards were subordinate to the Precentor ROM because they were still a secret and any deployment might accidentally reveal their existence.

[Archangel]

This all makes sense, except that the secret wasn't "already compartmentalized."  The bombing and the hiding of the original Thomas/Master occurred during Focht's term as Precentor ROM.

Unless ComStar was aware of the plot prior to the actual event or there were already contingency plans in place to replace Thomas Marik prior to the bombing from his time serving with ComStar (even more likely).  Contingency plans that were kept secret even from members of the First Circuit.

[Terminax]

I know a secret...

RAM... not ROM!

:D

[nckestrel]

I've run the numbers several times over multiple threads; the Word lacks the WarShip numbers of the Invading Clans, and even allowing for full strength of all 52 Divisions in '67 (which we know to not be the case, with several undermanned and/or in the process of forming) don't have anything even resembling enough military might to take on more than the battered Wolves.

The Word doesn't have the numbers to deal with the Invading Clans, therefore their plan was to take on the entire Inner Sphere?  I'm not getting your logic at all.

[Stormfury]

Not to take on the entire Inner Sphere, but to enact Scorpion 2.0; I said that further on in the post you quoted.

[ianargent]

Conquering large chunks of the Inner Sphere bootstraps to conquering the IS clans bootstraps to attacking Homeworld Clans; if you assume everything is coming up roses.

Or they really thought that returning a historic battleship to Tharkad as a gift would win over the Steiners, they controlled the FWL through "Thomas Marik", and they had a solid alliance with Sun-Tzu Liao; giving them the richest house, the most militarily productive house, and the most devious house of the Inner Sphere, and 2 of the 3 houses least likely to suffer from a counterattack, plus the one with a border with the least-liked (living) Clan in IS.

The Jihad kicked off way too early, too. What happens in 5-10 years with more warships floating out of slips in FWL, more trustworthy recruits for the Shadow Divisions, and a better "recruitment" process for unwilling converts?

The WoB thought they had the blessings of God - thus everything would break their way, no?

[Weirdo]

Folks, let's try to get this thread back on topic, please. [copper]

[ianargent]

OK - back on topic.

The bombing happens while Focht is not Precentor ROM, by almost half a year. He's hired as P-ROM to bring th eComstar Guards up to snuff as a fighting force, primarily. Why does he have need-to-know for the compartment where the "brothers" Thomas are? It's possible whoever was being groomed to step into that office (do we know that piece of info?) before Comstar starts the process that leads to a Precentor Martial's office being created might know - it's likely that whoever that was is Focht's Deputy Precentor for Black Ops (whatever his real title is); and he'd have need to know.

[roosterboy]

The bombing happens while Focht is not Precentor ROM, by almost half a year.

Incorrect.

21 July 3034: Focht is presented to Myndo Waterly by Theodore Kurita. He is "immediately" appointed Precentor ROM.
1 June 3035: Bomb kills Janos and Duggan Marik and apparently Thomas as well.
December 3035: Focht is appointed Precentor Martial.

[ianargent]

Oops - misinterpreted the post upthread as him starting as P-ROM in 3035, not as P-Martial. Should have checked the sources directly.

[Cyc]

Given that Waterly was directly visiting Thomas after the bombing, or merely claiming such to the official record if he wasn't on Terra at Hilton Head recuperating like the ComStar sourcebook claims, even with Focht as PR it seems likely she'd have plenty of chance to bypass or pull rank on him.

[Stormfury]

Not like Focht would have had much interest in what was happening, either.

What I think is the most likely way for Focht to find out is after Victor does; that data had to be transmitted, and reading other people's mail is what ComStar does best. By that point, there's no reason to act on that information, though; Focht's focus was always on the Clans, not the FWL or whatever the Word may be up to.

Came back to bite him in hindsight, but at the time it seems like the right call.

[Bosefius]

On the one hand Focht has been presented as the ultimate in honorable men (to the point that he is sent willingly on a suicide mission by Katrina because of his honor) to the point of rivaling Victor for honor. So knowing about the duplicity of the fake Thomas Marik goes against everything we know about the character. Furthermore, there is never any hint in even Focht's private thoughts that he knew.

At the same time, he was Precentor ROM when Marik was still 'recuperating' so you would think he would know.

Personally I find it entirely reasonable that Waterly replaced Marik without Focht knowing. He didn't know about Scorpion or any of the other secrets (as presented by Blake Documents) so it is entirely possible he was kept in the dark about this also.

As always, take what I say with a beach full of sand.

[Archangel]

It should also be noted that Primus Waterly has had considerable influence with ROM even before she became Primus.  After all she was able to plan and execute the attack on the NAIS (during the 4SW) behind Primus Tiepolo's back.  It should come as no surprise that there were ROM cells that reported directly to her bypassing the Precentor ROM entirely especially after Devon Cortland (aka Vapula) claims that she was the last Primus to know about the Hidden Five.  Considering she kept secrets even from those she supposedly trusted most, such as her protege (and undercover Combine agent) Sharilar Mori, it should be no surprise she kept secrets from Anastasius Focht.

[Stormfury]

Tiepolo died and Myndo was made Primus the month before the attack on the NAIS.

[Stormcrow]

Which doesn't keep her from doing the NAIS attack behind his back. An effort of such importance and complexity would be months in the planning, not days and weeks.

[Minemech]

 I would think Operation Flush was the first major item that Focht was tested with. There was no room for error in the Thomas Marik project.

[Archangel]

Which doesn't keep her from doing the NAIS attack behind his back. An effort of such importance and complexity would be months in the planning, not days and weeks.

Exactly especially when you go to such lengths as to duplicate the serial numbers of the parts in the Death Commandos' Mechs (4SWV2, p91).

[roosterboy]

Tiepolo died and Myndo was made Primus the month before the attack on the NAIS.

Tiepolo had a heart attack a month before the attack, but he didn't die and Myndo didn't get elected to replace him until two months after.

And, as others have already pointed out, she was probably working on the plan before his heart attack. In fact, I'm almost certain of it given the way that scene plays out in the novel. And there's the fact that Waterly knew NAIS had a copy of the Helm core when not even Tiepolo had that information. She was running her own agents on New Avalon behind the back of the Primus. Not to mention that in order to have troops ready to arrive on New Avalon in three weeks, she'd have to have been preparing them before she ever set foot in that First Circuit meeting.

[Stormfury]

Three weeks is easily done with ComStar's fleet assets and/or duping civilian JumpShips through their communications monoply.

Waterly calls for a vote on attacking the NAIS immediately after Tiepolo's collapse. She did have it planned in advance, but her influence over ROM was limited.

Regardless, reading the old ComStar Sourcebook does indicate that Waterly had Focht's predecessor in her pocket. Tiepolo had a massive stroke and was kept alive only via life support two days after his heart attack. Waterly was running the show, even if she wasn't officially Primus until later.

The mysterious Tojo Jarlath was Precentor ROM at the time, but his fate remains unclear. First and last time I've ever heard of him, any way.

[Archangel]

Three weeks is easily done with ComStar's fleet assets and/or duping civilian JumpShips through their communications monoply.

Waterly calls for a vote on attacking the NAIS immediately after Tiepolo's collapse. She did have it planned in advance, but her influence over ROM was limited.

Regardless, reading the old ComStar Sourcebook does indicate that Waterly had Focht's predecessor in her pocket. Tiepolo had a massive stroke and was kept alive only via life support two days after his heart attack. Waterly was running the show, even if she wasn't officially Primus until later.

The mysterious Tojo Jarlath was Precentor ROM at the time, but his fate remains unclear. First and last time I've ever heard of him, any way.

When you have so much influence over the head of an intelligence organization that he not only will keep critically vital information from his superior (such as the fact that the NAIS had acquired a copy of the Helm Memory Core) but also help you organize an unauthorized battalion-sized military operation behind that superior's back either of which could result in his execution then you have a lot of influence over that organization.

[Stormfury]

I seriously doubt Tiepolo did not have ROM agents personally loyal to him.

Waterly's influence over Tojo gave her some advantages, but she controlled only him- not ROM as a whole. Even with the Precentor behind her, there is still only so much that can be accomplished. Once the organisation at large is involved, her influence is far less and the risk of exposure far greater.

[Frabby]

ComStar was heavily implied to be behind the NAIS attack, but was it ever spelled out that it was a (regular) ROM operation? Could it have been a "private" operation by Waterly or a similarly powerful splinter faction?

[Stormfury]

Considering she presented the proposal to the First Circuit and they agreed upon it?

Not really, no. It was a "regular" operation, through and through.

[Archangel]

I seriously doubt Tiepolo did not have ROM agents personally loyal to him.

Waterly's influence over Tojo gave her some advantages, but she controlled only him- not ROM as a whole. Even with the Precentor behind her, there is still only so much that can be accomplished. Once the organisation at large is involved, her influence is far less and the risk of exposure far greater.

And yet none of them warned the Primus of the conspiracy against him.  Just by having the Precentor ROM in her pocket they were able to convince anybody who got too curious that they were following the Primus' orders, that per his orders everything was to be kept quiet and that the Primus was keeping the operation at arm's length to protect himself politically just in case it went bad.  The Primus was reliant on reports from "his" Precentor ROM, who was more loyal to Waterly, while the Precentor ROM could use his position to keep any pro-Tiepolo agent from discovering their plans and warning the Primus whether through deception or simply eliminating the threat.

Theodore Kurita had influence over only Subhash Indrahar and Ninyu Kerai with most of the ISF rank and file being far more loyal to Takashi than Theodore. Yet the two of them were able to keep several of Theodore's key plans secret from Takashi who more than likely would have subsumed them (in the case of Theodore's planned invasion of Dromini VI during the 4SW) if not outright forbidden them (agreeing with Waverly to giving up most of the Rasalhague District to the soon to be formed FRR).  Theodore's influence over Ninyu was such that he eliminated a fellow ISF agent who was doing his job in reporting what Theodore was up to.

In both cases, while the respective leaders (Primus/Coordinator) might have the loyalty of the majority of the rank and file, both Theodore and Myndo had effective control in the areas that they needed to thereby preventing either the Primus or the Coordinator from stopping their plans.

Don't forget that even before the planning began on the NAIS operation, Myndo Waterly (Precentor Dieron) was able to launch a ROM operation on New Avalon without word reaching either the Primus' or Precentor New Avalon's ears.  Had Precentor New Avalon found out he would have been more than a little angry ("how dare that ##### conduct an operation in my backyard without consulting me") and definitely would have gone to the Primus.

[Archangel]

Considering she presented the proposal to the First Circuit and they agreed upon it?

Not really, no. It was a "regular" operation, through and through.

While I agree that it was a ROM/ComGuard operation, it was a rogue ROM operation as it had been set in motion prior to receiving proper approval from the Primus or the First Circuit.  If the confrontation hadn't taken place and Tiepolo hadn't had his heart attack, it is questionable whether or not she would have even sought approval from the First Circuit.  For example if Tiepolo had been hospitalized prior to the meeting, somebody other than Myndo would have been interim leader.  Being a true believer in the righteousness of her cause, she would have, more than likely, launched her attack with or without approval.

[Stormfury]

The ComStar Sourcebook says that Waterly and Tojo had worked up the plans for the attack together. It does not say that the forces were inbound already.

[Archangel]

It does not say that the forces were inbound already.

I don't believe anybody said that although it is possible she moved them to a forward staging area to await the final 'go' command.

[Stormfury]

While I agree that it was a ROM/ComGuard operation, it was a rogue ROM operation as it had been set in motion prior to receiving proper approval from the Primus or the First Circuit.

It had only been planned for, not begun.

[Archangel]

It had only been planned for, not begun.

By the time Waterly confronted Tiepolo before the First Circuit all the pieces were in place and the assault team was simply awaiting for the final 'go' order.  Your more conspiracy minded might speculate that Waterly assumed the 'go' order was a mere formality, had already issued the order and then was simply protecting herself politically by "asking" for permission.

[Stormfury]

Or, based on the scene in Warrior: Coupe and what the ComStar book says, that the attack plan had been drawn up but had gone no further.

[Archangel]

Or, based on the scene in Warrior: Coupe and what the ComStar book says, that the attack plan had been drawn up but had gone no further.

One, the ComStar states that Waterly had started recruiting volunteers 3 weeks prior to the meeting as well as stating that she had readied her troops weeks prior to the meeting which is what allowed her to strike so quickly. Two, what? You actually expected her to tell the First Circuit the truth: "I need for us to approve this attack so I don't get into trouble for launching an unauthorized attack on the capital world of the FedSuns.  An attack, which by the way is already going forward whether you approve it or not so you might as well approve it."?  Three, I did state: "Your more conspiracy minded".  I never stated that I believed it.

[pensiveswetness]

Off topic, but i lost count the number of emotcons above this text that my daughter pointed out, liking some of them.

On topic: *mumbles something about retcon stuff* Nope, he didn't know (more specific, he didn't have a need-to-know)...