Alright guys, how to manage Group Queue

[Auren]

So, my friends and I would love to play in the group queue but so far it seems WAY more punishing then solo queue. Other then some far off fix, any tips on how to fix frustrated sighs and angry attitudes afterwards? There's four of us total.

[Netzilla]

Unfortunately the group queue population isn't large enough for the game's match-maker to produce balanced line-ups.  There's many times where the only available match-up for a 12-person or a 10+2 combo is a handful of 2-6 person teams.  Makes for a rough fight for the less cohesive team. 

If you want the best odds (not actually good odds) of getting a more balanced matchup, make sure that you're not excluding any of the match types and play during peak hours.  That will give you the widest population for the matchmaker to pick from when setting up opponents.  Even so, expect an uphill battle any time you find yourself against a 12 or 10+2.  If you're up against a more diverse group, neither side should have as much of a coordination advantage, which should make for a better fight.

Another tip:  If you just got stomped by a 10+ person group, don't hit launch right away after your match.  Give it 5 minutes so the group that just pounded you will be fighting someone else when you start searching for opponents.  Conversely, if you just had a good, close match, try to launch fairly quickly and you might get some of the same opponents again (or the ones you just fought a good match with end up on your side, which is also good).

Believe it or not, though, match balance is better than it used to be.

[IAMCLANWOLF]

Up your game?

Not trying at all to sound harsh, just that our group had a similar wake up call about 4-5 months back.
We've had to revise our tactics, structure, way of thinking, and have some practice games to remain competitive.
Course, I will also plug bringing efficient, effective builds, but-- we are always working on ways to improve our efforts.
We had the very same issue, though. Frustrated players after a night that was supposed to offer a good bit of escapism.
Thankfully, it's all paying off. Good luck, though. This game offers some really interesting opportunities for group warfare.
Hopefully CW will continue to build on this, and bring in additional new and old players alike. Cheers!

[Auren]

-snip-

That's thoroughly unhelpful. Lemme know when you can find some productive advice beyond "Get Good Scrub." This isn't about competitive. This is about having fun but it ain't fun when there's two of you and ten people who believe rushing mid is the best idea.

Unfortunately the group queue population isn't large enough for the game's match-maker to produce balanced line-ups.  There's many times where the only available match-up for a 12-person or a 10+2 combo is a handful of 2-6 person teams.  Makes for a rough fight for the less cohesive team. 

If you want the best odds (not actually good odds) of getting a more balanced matchup, make sure that you're not excluding any of the match types and play during peak hours.  That will give you the widest population for the matchmaker to pick from when setting up opponents.  Even so, expect an uphill battle any time you find yourself against a 12 or 10+2.  If you're up against a more diverse group, neither side should have as much of a coordination advantage, which should make for a better fight.

Well that sucks. I stay the hell away from Conquest and Assault because playing objectives is completely unrewarding. Seriously. 1500 cbills for capturing a base in Assault?

Another tip:  If you just got stomped by a 10+ person group, don't hit launch right away after your match.  Give it 5 minutes so the group that just pounded you will be fighting someone else when you start searching for opponents.  Conversely, if you just had a good, close match, try to launch fairly quickly and you might get some of the same opponents again (or the ones you just fought a good match with end up on your side, which is also good).

Believe it or not, though, match balance is better than it used to be.

That's a terrifying thought.

[Nightlord01]

That's thoroughly unhelpful. Lemme know when you can find some productive advice beyond "Get Good Scrub." This isn't about competitive. This is about having fun but it ain't fun when there's two of you and ten people who believe rushing mid is the best idea.

I'm sorry, but if you think that IAMCLANWOLFs response was degrading or translated into "Get good scrub" then you clearly don't pay attention. He's not saying you need to learn how to shoot, he's saying you need to up your game as a team.

What he did was point out that maybe, just maybe, you aren't playing at the top of your capacity. He also gave you some helpful pointers to check on.

I will add some more:

Nominate a leader. Combat teams can't effectively function as a group of individuals, you need someone to stand up and take charge.
Prioritise your targets, grouping fire is an effect multiplier.
Communicate! You can't be a team if noone talks about what's going on. Communication should be short and concise, don't waste your comms asset.
Follow orders. Hand in hand with point one, if you are just doing your own thing, why be in a group?
Pick your role. You need to determine what it is that you want to bring to the battlefield. As a relatively small group, I'd say go for similar roles, with similar mobility.
Pick your strat. Work out how you are going to win, then follow it. Don't get emotionally involved with it, battlefields are fluid, be prepared to change strategy on the fly. If you ask what the strat is and you get a variation of "just kill stuff" you will likely never go far as a team.

I don't really go for the whole taking only competitive builds, if you play a non-optimised build well, that's better than playing an optimised build poorly. Work out what you are good at, and do that. On the plus side, you will generally have more fun.

On the whole, PGI have done something that is pretty rare, they have developed a game which rewards teamwork. The matches will generally be won by the better coordinated team, not the better team on paper.

On the whole, there is absolutely nothing you can do to make the other players on your side perform the way you want, all you can do is perform the best you can, and hope you aren't let down.

[Auren]

I'm sorry, but if you think that IAMCLANWOLFs response was degrading or translated into "Get good scrub" then you clearly don't pay attention. He's not saying you need to learn how to shoot, he's saying you need to up your game as a team.

Having played dozens of other games that reward teamwork from League of Legends to Battlefield to EVE Online, we didn't have the problem of 'This sucks and isn't fun. Let's just drop solo queue, we'll be better off' UNTIL MWO.

[Nightlord01]

Having played dozens of other games that reward teamwork from League of Legends to Battlefield to EVE Online, we didn't have the problem of 'This sucks and isn't fun. Let's just drop solo queue, we'll be better off' UNTIL MWO.

I've played LoL, DotA, EvE, WoW and a whole host of others. Most of them have the problem far worse than MWO. LoL and DotA both used small team sizes, so can't really be compared. Your four man team would provide 80% of the players on a team. EvE is once again different, although if you've ever suffered the n+1 blob tactic, you will know that it can suck just as bad. WoW, in its own way, was much, much worse. You could spend raid lockout after lockout stuck on the same boss. You could queue as a group for BGs and just continuously get ROFL stomped. It's hard to find a game where you just keep getting smashed and still have a great time. While I don't mind losing, continuously losing is demoralising at best.

If you've played EvE, you know you need an FC, so who's you FC in MWO? Did you assign one? Another thing you should do is join a Clan. It will give you a greater pool of players to choose from.

Believe me, most of us can sympathise with getting curb stomped repeatedly. I certainly can, there are days, weeks, where it seems I can't win a game, but then again, there are days when I can't seem to lose a game, and I'd get kills if I went AFK. :P

[Auren]

EvE is once again different, although if you've ever suffered the n+1 blob tactic, you will know that it can suck just as bad.

If you've played EvE, you know you need an FC, so who's you FC in MWO? Did you assign one? Another thing you should do is join a Clan. It will give you a greater pool of players to choose from.

Never not n+1.  :D

Usually in all the afforementioned games, (Using WoW as Generic MMO) I'd be the one making the calls. I'll pass on the clan/guild/unit whatever. I find all of them poisonous in some manner or another and contribute to groupthink rather then actually listening to differing opinions. Or they vacuum all they can get, or serve as hero worship cults.

Believe me, most of us can sympathise with getting curb stomped repeatedly. I certainly can, there are days, weeks, where it seems I can't win a game, but then again, there are days when I can't seem to lose a game, and I'd get kills if I went AFK. :P

Well, I once AFK'd with a PPC/SRM6 CPLT-C1 and got three kills out of it.  :D

[Farnsworth]

So, my friends and I would love to play in the group queue but so far it seems WAY more punishing then solo queue. Other then some far off fix, any tips on how to fix frustrated sighs and angry attitudes afterwards? There's four of us total.

During situations like this my friends and I tend to play a striker team of fast heavies and mediums or a nasty ecm light team and go for the grand hail Mary plays flanking opponents, hunting LRM boats and EMC mechs. This generally affords the other two lances, often with more firepower, to hit hard while chaos ensues. Well, if they do at all. Half the equation is divining when your buddies are about to push or how to entice them too once committing your flanking attack.

Sure it fails spectacularly at times but more often than not you help to pull off a team win even though you die. When you survive though, its all the more satisfying.

Always take the time to set up your approach as a lance
Do not fire unless spotted during approach and even then think about retreat to come back later unseen
Gang up on one LRM mech first coordinating on the rear. ECM Atlas's take priority!
Run like hell when the enemy notices
Wash rinse repeat working your way through LRM mechs to ECM then enemy aces.

Ignore all the pitiful cries of your company mates begging you to die with them. examples "Close up", "the fights over here", "stay together", only fools go to water", etc...
   

[martian]

!!!!!   Please don't take following advices as some kind of personal attack. You know from other topics on these forums that I always describe things as they really are.
For some time I have intended to write some like this, so this thread only served as catalyst for me to put these thought on paper.

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Formulate your tactics:
How to do that: "We will take one dedicated LRM boat and two trooper 'Mechs. That means that one of us must take that Commando or Raven with ECM to cover us and with NARC to designate targets if it will be possible."
How not to do that: "Everybody takes what's desired. Speed or armament doesn't matter. We will formulate our strategy in the game, when we'll find out what everyone of us actually has and how he would imagine to use it."

Remember: Team cooperation doesn't start in the game - it starts in the 'Mechbay and in the Lobby!

1) Bring good IS 'Mechs
- forget Quickdraws, Dragons, Trebuchets, Centurions or Awesomes - take the best IS 'Mechs in their respective weight classes
- if you don't, then don't complain that enemies in their better 'Mechs are winning

2) Bring Clan 'Mechs
- invest your C-Bills in Clan 'Mechs - remember that their ratio in the MWO will gradually increase, not decrease
- plus, today you can buy at least one Clan 'Mech from each weight class for C-Bills and other Clan 'Mechs are coming
- if you don't, then don't complain that enemy 'Mechs have greater firepower and better range

3) Arm your 'Mechs with efficient weaponry
- no, I don't care that you want to test some outrageous combination of weapons and heat sinks "for fun" - you will not take it here
- use Training Grounds and PUG queue for that
- if take your unworkable hodge-podge of weapons, you are harming your group and your team - and don't dare to complain that your 'Mech overheats, it's slow or low on ammo

4) LRMs
- forget LRMs as the number of ECMs in the field is getting higher and higher
- if you really want to bring LRMs, do not forget to arm your 'Mechs with TAG and BAP; and if you really want to do the maximum for your success, one of your lancemates should pilot dedicated LRM-spotter with Enhanced NARC (and preferably TAG and BAP)
- if you take LRMs, then don't complain that you can't obtain lock - remember that it was your own choice to take them

4) At least one of your 'Mechs should have ECM
- yes, it's possible that all of you wanna play ... dunno ... Heavy 'Mechs. Regardless, one of your lance-mates should take either Light or Medium with ECM
(of course you can hide in the tunnel, among buildings or behind rocks, but that's additional complication and sometimes you will be on a mpa where there is no cover for you)
- if you don't, then don't complain that enemy has hammered you with LRMs - it was your own choice to go without ECM
- if you don't have ECM in your own team, but "hope" that some unknown player in your team will perhaps have it, then don't complain that there is not a single ECM in your team or that it doesn't go where you would need it
(the only ECM in your team may be PUG sniper who will run a kilometer away and hide)

5) Shut UP!
- between missions, you can talk about everything
- but as the mission starts, you should talk only about:

• position of the enemy ("Four enemy Assaults in F6!", "Daishi between those rocks on the left in D5!", "Jenner with NARC in the town!")
• your own movement ("Let's go the D-line!", "We can't go through the tunnel - two Daishis are waiting there!")
• call targets: "F, Cataphract, left torso damaged."
• important things: "Jim, you're Narced!", "Six enemies pushing through the cave!"

- nobody is interested in your babbling about:

• how the MWO matchmaker sucks
• what you have ****** up
• what enemy 'Mech(s) you have missed
• how is your 'Mech damaged
• how is the game unfair and that enemies have better 'Mechs
• that your teammates from other lances are stupid
• etc.

And again: You died? Shut up!
Talk only when you are warning your lancemates about some unknown danger that killed you, unnoticed before ("Sniping Masakari behind the bridge on the right!").
Or some important tacical change ("PUGs are running away from the C3 - let's fall back before enemy overruns us here!")
Nobody is interested in your complaints that being hammered to the death by LRMs is unfair. Everybody can see that those LRMs are flying. And in the case that you willingly omitted ECM from your team, such cries are completely ridiculous.

6) Have your 'Mechs fully Mastered (including having that one additional Module slot) and equipped with useful Modules
- that's something what goes without saying.
- no, it really doesn't matter that you wanna take your new unmastered 'Mech you have just bought - use PUG queue for that
- here your slow-moving, slowly turning 'Mech would be in disadvantage against enemy 'Mechs that are fully Mastered

7) if your team is bigger than one lance, select your leader who says where the team is going - and everybody must do it. It's not possible to stay behind and snipe when the leader says: "We are pushing!"

That's thoroughly unhelpful. Lemme know when you can find some productive advice beyond "Get Good Scrub." This isn't about competitive. This is about having fun but it ain't fun when there's two of you and ten people who believe rushing mid is the best idea.

It's very helpful.
Or do you expect that you will have fun with substandard equipment (Mechs and weapons), bad tactics, no cooperation and idea that you two can operate independently on the rest of the team (unless you are a pair of Lights)?

In other words: If you support the rest of your team - even if you disagree with things that they are doing - your may win.
But if you run away to do your own bussines, you will probably lose - either because the core of your team will fold because they will be playing 10:12, or enemy hunting pack of Jenners and Firestarters will find and kill you and your friend and the rest of the team won't and can't help you both.

If you are always on the losing side, it's a good idea to think what you are doing wrong and why other team are doing good. Usually, some deep change is needed.

[Auren]

-Good stuff here-

But... but why is the Hercules inferior to the Volferger?   ;D

We usually run a Catapult/Victor/Some sorta Clan mech that's on the heayv end. Our fourth guy was a newbie but after mostly dying every match and not doing anything productive I think he quit. I do know when the Hell Bringer comes out, I am going to drop money on it and the Timber Wolf. Our tactics are usually together, we do form up and we do fight pretty coherently and more often then not, it winds up being us three versus nine of the enemy team or so.

Most of this other stuff we do. We get our head in the game, we don't use Quickdraws(I tried the trial one, christ its bad.), Dragons, Trebs, or Awesomes. I drive the Catapult most of the time and do have the BAP but more often then not, burn through 1k+ lrms so I've been keeping the mediums. ECM's a bit of a problem yeah but I hold fire until we get a UAV into the sky.

[martian]

Personal opinion incomig! (again)

A) Forget the Victor.

The poor Victor has three big problems:

• Nerfed Jump Jets
  - so you have problem to get this damned thing more than one meter above the ground
• A dozen of new Quirks
  - the Victor has a pretty long list of Quirks
  - and all those Quirks are negative ...
  - maybe, in some distant future, the PGI will unnerf the Victor - but as it is now, the Victor is not example of really good 'Mech
• 3/3/3/3 system
  - in the current system, your Victor takes up one Assault slot in your team
  - the problem is that the other team will bring more powerful Assault 'Mechs in their Assault 'Mech slots - and honestly, practically all IS and Clan Assaults are more powerful than the Victor
  - food for thoughts: Have you noticed that the Daishi is available for C-Bills? (and it doesn't have to be just Daishi, naturally)

Yes, you may like the Victor, perhaps you even spent your money to buy the Dragon Slayer, but in my opinion the best place for the Victor is currenty in the hangar. Either buy a real top-end Assault 'Mech or go with a top-end Heavy 'Mech.


B) Problematic Catapult.

- yes, LRMs are sometimes useful (especially if enemy has no ECM or their ECM runs away), but for every such moment there are two other situations where a LRM 'Mech can't absolutely contribute - the tunnel on the Crimson, the town on the Crimson, the cave and its entrances on the Forest Colony, rock pillars on the Tourmaline Desert, HPG manifold undergroun, etc.
- and if enemy has multiple 'Mechs with ECM (two or three ECM Lights and DDC Atlas), then in my experience LRM boats are pretty screwed, UAV or not.

My experience says that the more experienced and competetive players you face, the less LRMs (and the more ECM) you will probably meet.


3) If your third guy has Thor, Madcat or Clan Assault, that's good.


4) Newbies are problem.

Check their builds. Check their heat balance, ammo supply, etc.

Tell them that different weapons have different properties: Things such as the minimum range of LRMs or PPCs, etc.
If needed, remind them these things in the game.
(Just yesterday I watched a guy who was either complete noob or complete fool: He had a Thunderbolt build with three or four PPCs and he attempted to fight enemy Madcat on 0-20 meters. He overheated constantly and when he hit, he did no damage.)

You have to keep an eye on them and tell them what to do - not only in the lobby, but you must watch them in the game: where they are, what they are doing, if they are too close or too far from you, if they are not hitting some obstacle with their weapons fire, etc. Tell them on Teamspeak what to do.

Sometimes it may be useful - if they kill you early in the game - to jump into their cockpit and watch what they are doing and give them advice.

There are two things that go against each other: The MWO has a steep learning curve, while noobies are too lazy to learn and they expect to get rewards for everything and that they will be Insta-Masters after two games. Of course, they are disappointed when it doesn't happen, so they often quit. They often lack patience.

[Auren]

Victor stuff

• 3/3/3/3 system
  - in the current system, your Victor takes up one Assault slot in your team
  - the problem is that the other team will bring more powerful Assault 'Mechs in their Assault 'Mech slots - and honestly, practically all IS and Clan Assaults are more powerful than the Victor
  

Yes, you may like the Victor, perhaps you even spent your money to buy the Dragon Slayer, but in my opinion the best place for the Victor is currenty in the hangar. Either buy a real top-end Assault 'Mech or go with a top-end Heavy 'Mech.

I dunno about that. My friend tends to mangle dire wolves and Atlases. He doesn't run jumpjets and has twin LB-10x and SRMs. It's... brutal. Yeah he's fodder for the enemy team but trading a Victor for a Dire Wolf isn't exactly bad per se.

- food for thoughts: Have you noticed that the Daishi is available for C-Bills? (and it doesn't have to be just Daishi, naturally)[/li][/list]
B) Problematic Catapult.

Yes, and getting 50-100k a game makes trying to get one an exercise in depression.

- yes, LRMs are sometimes useful (especially if enemy has no ECM or their ECM runs away), but for every such moment there are two other situations where a LRM 'Mech can't absolutely contribute - the tunnel on the Crimson, the town on the Crimson, the cave and its entrances on the Forest Colony, rock pillars on the Tourmaline Desert, HPG manifold undergroun, etc.
- and if enemy has multiple 'Mechs with ECM (two or three ECM Lights and DDC Atlas), then in my experience LRM boats are pretty screwed, UAV or not.

ECM does need to be nerfed into the ground imo. It's WAY too good for what it is. I can't think of another piece of equipment that isn't Radar Deprivation that's so utterly game breaking. For those maps I tend to get into a good sniping position, or just tag people on the way in, then brawl with the four mediums.

My experience says that the more experienced and competetive players you face, the less LRMs (and the more ECM) you will probably meet.

3) If your third guy has Thor, Madcat or Clan Assault, that's good.

Eh, I guess. But if its looking like I have to drop $55+ to get any sort of enjoyment out of MWO, I'm not going to keep it. I'm sure I could get better enjoyment buying $55 worth of scratch tickets and have mostly the same result.

4) Newbies are problem.

He had trial mechs only. Sadly, he did much better in Hawken then MWO.

There are two things that go against each other: The MWO has a steep learning curve, while noobies are too lazy to learn and they expect to get rewards for everything and that they will be Insta-Masters after two games. Of course, they are disappointed when it doesn't happen, so they often quit. They often lack patience.

There's a difference between "Oh, I'm new to this game." and "I am not having fun." It was most definitely the second one. He isn't going to wait around for "Things to get better." I myself have been burned by too many developers to believe any of their promises.

[martian]

Lengthy (but perhaps interesting) post ahead!

1) If it works for him - very good. But does he regularly dish out the same DMG and number of kills as typical enemy Dire Wolf? Is he in his Victor the same bulldozer as typical enemy Daishi in offense and defense? If he is really good, then of course he should keep it, that's clear (check the fourth screenshot). Otherwise, there are many different 'Mechs available.

2) Honestly, 50-100k C-Bills is quite low. But there are some possibilities what do with it ...

If you don't earn enough C-Bills, then perhaps you should improve your skill, your 'Mech or cooperation with your lancemates and team-mates.
Or - as another possibility - drop those LRMs and use different weapons or different 'Mechs.

As you can see, there are more ways how to make C-Bills. Some xamples follow, so you can check these screencaps:
(I am posting complete results so you can check that I am not cheating)

A) "A" is for Active combat:






... and without Premium Time, Hero 'Mech or any 'Mech bought directly for cash or MCs.

My secret tactics is very simple: Being active in the game. Forcing the initiative. Not waiting what our enemies will do, but making "them" react. *

I can hear you: "But I don't own such advanced 'Mech!". Luckily, there are other ways, like this:

B) "B" is for Battlefield aggressiveness in small 'Mechs + using what the PGI offers for free:






My secret? I wasn't passive in the game - that's all.

• If you want C-Bills, you must do something to earn them. In this case, I was better than our Atlas, Cataphract, our pair of Catapults -C1s, Novas and Shadow Hawk.
• Now, I know what you are going to say: "But you have the Premium Time!" And my answer will be: "Yes, I have that Premium Time for completing the first level of the recent challenge. I haven't bought it."

In ten quick games you can earn 2¹/₂ millions C-Bills. In twenty games per day: 5 millions C-Bills. And of course you don't have to use the Spider all the time - it was just example.

The Premium Time lasts for three days - so that's 3*5 millions = 15 millions C-Bills. The Daishi costs 17 millions C-Bills.

As you can see, if you show some activity, not even such Assault Clan 'Mech is out of your reach.


3) I haven't bought my Clan 'Mechs neither for dollars in Summer nor for MCs now. I obtained them the old-fashioned way: For C-Bills earned on the battlefield.


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* Although it's not directly to this topic, I hate the same passive mindset that a half of local posters has shown in that Hercules thread: "It's better that the Hercules doesn't have CASE, enemy won't salvage it after the battle."

Why people don't have active mindset?: "I will win the battle and salvage all fallen 'Mechs left on the battlefield, my own crippled 'Mechs included, Hercules too!"

Sorry for this detour.

[Auren]

The hell would I assume you were cheating for?  ??? I know its easy to rack up the c-bills, which is why I intend to get a Dire Whale sometime soon because lopping parts off of enemies is good money. I've gotten damage consistently in the 300+ range but I can't manage to kill anything, usually. I am currently working on getting enough SRM6 racks to make the CPLT-C4 not a horror show, because right now its awful.

I think 80% of my problem is that I expect LRMs to be a viable way of murdering people dead like they were in MW4:M, which I have found to be a superior game in terms of balance. For one thing, ECM wasn't the overpowered supermodule it is now but that's a rant for another time.


As for the Verfolger ribbing, it wasn't so much that the Herc has no CASE, which I agree is a problem but more or less saying it ain't THAT bad.  ;D

[martian]

1) Sorry, I put them there just for completeness' sake.

2) One fundamental property of LRM is that they spread damage. If you try, you may damage enemy 'Mechs so that they are red, but they won't die. They are healthy enough to come and murder those annoying LRM boats from the point blank range.

IS 'Mechs often died on side torso loss (thanks LRMs), but those new Clan 'Mechs can survive without it.