Author Topic: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW  (Read 40894 times)

SCC

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What I'm talking about is that the rules allow for a player to make a new Combat Command that consists of 1 Mech Regiment minimum and adding up to as many Armored, Aero, Infantry, and Artillery as they can afford with a stupid number of combinations.

The starting Combat Command for the CCAF is 1 Mech Regiment, 2 Aerospace Wings, 3 Armor Regiments, 5 Infantry Regiments, and 1 Artillery Battalion.  10.5 RP to support for each CCAF Combat Command, so as long as you stick to this it would actually be pretty simple to keep track of your supply RP expenditures.  As long as you use standardized templates it could still be manageable.  That's the thing though, it is when things start getting out of whack or situations crop up where you can't stick to particular templates or sub-units in the combat commands get destroyed without destroying the whole combat command(something that as far as I can tell is technically possible but not really addressed in the ISW rules themselves).
OK, two problems there. 1) A CC Combat Command as two artillery battalions and 2) You round the RP supply cost of infantry regiment up, so the actual supply cost is 12.

And just like your calculating the supply costs for normal Combat Commands in advance it's possible to do so for ones with abnormal formations.

monbvol

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Which as I indicated is not too much of a problem as long as everything is going to plan but as we all know what tends to happen to plans upon first contact with the enemy.

As to the Artillery Battalion, dang nabbit reading straight across lines.  :P

For the rounding the examples actually seem to indicate you do not round at the Combat Command level but at the total army level(example specifically lists the entire DCMS in 3025 as needing 782 RP to support without anything going into combat but if you rounded at the Combat Command level instead of the total armed forces level it would be 816 RP).

SCC

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monbvol, your overthinking this. As of IO according to RAW NOTHING can EVER change the stats of a Combat Command. Even units that were destroyed in the nuclear fires of the 1st or 2nd Succession Wars or the Jihad still exist, the armor of all constituent Combat Teams/Combat Units is reduced to 0, but it still exists, you still need to supply it with maintenance and if you pay the RP cost you can repair it. (There are rules for mutinying on pages 365-366, but not on actual destruction). So you just note how many RP of supply each on the first page of a Combat Commands record sheets and don't worry about it changing, because it can't

And as the numbers provided on page 348 are effectively samples, they're not going to fair any better differently sized units. Really whats more likely to cause problems with supply is that Combat Teams can be detached for raiding, and the chances of you missing on of those detached companies is a lot higher

monbvol

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Stats do change as Combat Commands take damage and units that are destroyed cannot be repaired.

Quote from: Interstellar Operations Page 364&365
DAMAGE
At the end of any Turn in which a Combat Command has seen
combat, the Command must adjust its damage and armor values to
reflect any damage it may have received. Commands that know they
will be engaged in combat in the next Turn follow the rules for combat
system they are using (see ACS Damage Phase, p. 317 or SBF Apply
Damage, p. 241).

Commands that have been destroyed may not be repaired.

So yeah if the Armor Regiment of a Combat Command gets wiped out it does change the stats and no longer needs to be supplied.

I've also been saying that yes those distributions on page 348 are not mandatory and it has been part of my point that Combat Commands will not always conform to them as a consequence, therefore making book keeping more intensive.

SCC

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OK, missed that because I was looking for a heading. But even with that (And note that only destruction of a regiment will permanently change a Combat Commands stats) a Combat Commands supply requirements will change so rarely that it can be treated as fixed and you can calculate in advance how much they will all need for non-combat supply to meet, meaning you only have to calculate the extra cost for units in combat, which should be pretty easy to know.

monbvol

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Yeah the supply part is mostly tedious, just all those stats though and all the conditional modifiers.  Ick.

solmanian

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That's odd. I'd expect that even "destroyed" command could be "resurrected" with new machines and people... XP would be practically wiped.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

monbvol

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Of course you could re-build it following the appropriate rules.  Just rotate it back to a not Other World and spend the RP and profit.

The only hiccup I can see is in the scenario of the destroyed regiment being the Mech regiment.  Not really clear on what the fate of a Combat Command that loses it's Mech regiment but still survives is supposed to be since each Combat Command must contain one and only one Mech Regiment(honestly a rule that I'm really starting to think should go away).

Alexander Knight

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The only hiccup I can see is in the scenario of the destroyed regiment being the Mech regiment.  Not really clear on what the fate of a Combat Command that loses it's Mech regiment but still survives is supposed to be since each Combat Command must contain one and only one Mech Regiment(honestly a rule that I'm really starting to think should go away).

Actually, the line is "Each new Combat Command"  (emphasis on the word new).  A Command that already exists isn't bound by that.

monbvol

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So you're right.  Could have sworn I saw another reference in there somewhere but now I can't find it.  So I'll take the small victory that results from me being wrong about something that makes things simpler since I so desperately want to to be proven wrong about the complexity and detail of these rules.

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That's odd. I'd expect that even "destroyed" command could be "resurrected" with new machines and people... XP would be practically wiped.

Which has happened in fiction many times. After all, the "15th Sword of Whap" is just a label applied to a combat command. if the 15th Whap is destroyed, there's no problem raising a new combat command and calling it the 15th again. Of course, it's going to start at the experience level you equip it at.

Question - would you rather recreate a storied but ultimately unlucky combat command, or work your way up through the numbers, leaving old "regimental colours" offline? No combat effectiveness issues, just personal preference?
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monbvol

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For me it somewhat depends.  If there is some actual prestige or cultural identity tied to the unit and thus some political capital in re-using the name I would.*  If not then I'll probably just work my way through the numbers.

*I actually have this concept for an AU faction of mine where to try and build some cultural/political bridges with a particular cultural of their population to ease dissent and sometimes outright open rebellion they apply unit numbers and nicknames of various military units that have a famous history to their own units but it instead just fans the flames instead.

Tai Dai Cultist

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There's also the angle of skipping ahead on regimental numbers just for the purpose of confounding one's enemies.*

"What, they've raised the 15th Sword of Whap?  My gods... then we have absolutely no idea where the 10th thru 14th regiments are!"

*= just because it might seem like a silly idea doesn't mean that exact thing hasn't been done in real life, for example during the Cold War.....

The Purist

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Well,... after much discussion our little group has decided on a few simplifications to make the building of units less 'paperwork' heavy. Our conversion process is ongoing as we tend to discuss the sources and try, where possible, to live up to its spirit if not its letter.

First,... production would need to be open. What you build is known (a game master with no other needs in life might mitigate this need), where it is placed might be hidden (honour system? gamemaster?).

Next we pretty much threw out the basic lance structures as a bit pointless and concentrated on the Combat Team, the Combat Unit and then the formation. With all the dividing by three and rounding we found that House specific CTs  and CUs could be build up from milking the random access tables (we play late 3rd SW so 3025 is our main tool). By basing the CU on the top 4-6 mechs, combat vehicles and AS fighters we could come up with 36 (or 48) elements and the shape of a standard battalion (light, med, hvy and aslt). This then becomes a fixed 'block'. All light mech battalions (for example) in regiments of whatever weight in my Marik forces will be the same. Theses battalions had to retain their 'weight' so they do have medium and heavy Elements but they must remain less than 1.49 size (we actually used 1.33) From here one builds (buys) a regiment (also has to maintain a weight class).

In this way one could build a heavy regiment that had 2 aslt battalions (CUs) and a light battalion (weight 4+4+1=9/3 =3). This build is noted, labelled and expensed. Move on to the tank regiments, aerospace, etc. We also changed the cost structure to take into account the difference in regimental weight. A light mech regiment 18 RP, med 21, hvy 24, asslt 27. Combat vehicle regiment costs 8 (lt), 10 (med, hover), 12 (hvy, vtol), 14 (aslt). The VTOL CUs (combat or transport) were made expensive due to complexity and logistics more so than weight

Supply for all of the above is also modified accordingly.

By focusing on the CU it also made garrison tank and mech battalions easier. Infantry forced a bit more 'non canon' tweaks as we could not see a leg (garrison) regiment costing, much less being equipped, the same as a mech infantry regiment. We solved this by using the mech inf regiment as the standard and giving them their inherent transports. This didn't boost the combat value as much as we thought it would but it did increase movement (a reg't of hover infantry is very fast but has little punch or armour). As with mech regiments the infantry regiment is built from battalions but we also expanded the infantry regiment choices to include leg (garrison), motorised, air mobile (para/leg, but it needs an airmobile VTOL reg't), jump and mechanised. Costs were 4, 4.5, 5, 5 and 6 (supply likewise modified).

Each of these CUs is 'standard'... there simply cannot be different battalion OoBs every time production comes along. In a few test game turns the battalions from one House to the next do not make much difference and regiments tended to sort themselves out depending on the opponent and how their regiments were constructed. Our Kuritan deployed different regiments against Davion than he did against Steiner. I did the same against the Liao vs Steiner fronts.

Anyway,... that's our take on the best way to possibly play a major campaign, if it can be done. We figure the sort of 'broken back' style of warfare of the late 3rd SW would be easier to play with reduced economics (exhaustion). It makes salvage more important and new mech units (or replacements) all the more precious. As our long running-play when you can manage the time-campaign is based mainly on one theatre per player and around a group of planets (on going since the days of BF2), we figure we can convert over to SBF (scaled SBF actually) to give us more latitude than the SO BF rules do for planetary manoeuvre.

Thanks for your time.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2016, 11:27:00 by The Purist »
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SCC

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Purist, why do hover and VTOL formations cost more under your system?

worktroll

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The Purist, I like the approach you've taken.

Side question - what are the PVs (derived via ACS) for the units you've created, and how do they bear up next to the RP costs you've listed?

W.
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The Purist

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I haven't really plotted the units we've converted so far. My own Marik units are just sketches while I'm  helping our Lyran (he has an active front). We're going with 48 Element ground units (3 x 16 or 4 x 12) and 36 Element Aerospace Wings (3 x 12 Elements).

His light tank battalion (Combat Unit- 48 elements (4 coys, 12 Elements ea)): 23 PV

Hover tank battalion (3 coys of 16 Elements): 34 PV

Medium battalion (3 coys of 16 Elements): 31 PV

Heavy battalion (3 coys of 16 Elements): 47 PV

Assault battalion (3 coy of 16 Elements): 60 PV

As above, 2 aslt bns and a light bn would weigh in as a 'heavy regiment' for 12 RP or 143PV.

Our version uses heavier units so the cost is higher (as are the other stats) than the standard 36 Element battalion. If it is reduced to 36 Elements it would be about 107-108 PV for 12 RP.
____________________________________________________________________________

Edit

A test Lyran Light Mech Battalion (weight 1.33) comes in at 39 PV. A regiment made from three of these battalions would cost 117 PV for 18 RP. If reduced to 36 Elements it would be about 88 PV for 18 RP. Swap out one light battalion for a medium and the PV cost goes up to about 92-95 for the same 18 RP but the regiment (Formation) retains its 'light' status and gains and a bit more firepower. Movement drops a touch as well.

« Last Edit: 16 June 2016, 13:26:42 by The Purist »
Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought upon the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

"...Remember also the two "prime directives" in playing BattleTech:
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Page 168 - Reunification War

The Purist

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Purist, why do hover and VTOL formations cost more under your system?

Call it a tech/maintenance/logistics expense. Hovercraft and VTOLs are more complex than light tanks to build needing more specialized manufacturing processes. They would take more time/expense/tech to keep working, so we bumped up the strategic cost, which bumps up supply as well.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2016, 11:37:35 by The Purist »
Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought upon the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

"...Remember also the two "prime directives" in playing BattleTech:
1. HAVE FUN
2. DON'T LET YOURSELF GET SO CAUGHT UP IN THE RULES THAT YOU STOP HAVING FUN"
Page 168 - Reunification War

The Purist

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #168 on: 15 June 2016, 13:35:39 »
After reading through "First Succession War" I have to admit that Catalyst has hit three for three. Strategic Ops, Insterstellar Ops and now 1st SW have really expanded the scope of the game. The books allow for a myriad of scenarios, short campaigns and (if one has the time) even the full campaigns. Although, I would suggest that a full campaign of ISW would require a global effort run by a team of game masters to handle the administration while local groups form the opposing sides.

The hex maps are a brilliant edition that makes movement of commands so much easier and removes the need for reference charts for jumping about.

I hope the publication of the 2nd and 3rd SW are of same caliber and will certainly scoop them up

The catalyst team and the volunteers can take a well deserved bow

Edit:I am wondering if it is not time for a new sub-forum call "Succession Wars" or "Inner Sphere at War"
« Last Edit: 15 June 2016, 13:37:35 by The Purist »
Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought upon the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

"...Remember also the two "prime directives" in playing BattleTech:
1. HAVE FUN
2. DON'T LET YOURSELF GET SO CAUGHT UP IN THE RULES THAT YOU STOP HAVING FUN"
Page 168 - Reunification War

ColBosch

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #169 on: 15 June 2016, 15:21:34 »
Just to be clear, there have been no announcements about a 3rd Succession War product. A few fans and off-duty writers have kicked around ideas for what they'd like to see if such a book came out, but it is not currently in the works.
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Ghost cub

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #170 on: 15 June 2016, 20:02:48 »
I think an ISW thread is a good idea. I still have a lot of work to do on my jihad era thread when I can get the time,  but I have been slogging through css and html to make various roll20 battletech play level sheets.

The Purist

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #171 on: 16 June 2016, 12:14:08 »
Just to be clear, there have been no announcements about a 3rd Succession War product. A few fans and off-duty writers have kicked around ideas for what they'd like to see if such a book came out, but it is not currently in the works.

That would be unfortunate and not just because it leaves a large hole between the 2nd and 4th SW. The 3rd SW is probably the most dynamic period between the end of the Star League and the arrival of the Clans. While the war began with major offensives (if somewhat less powerful than the 1st or 2nd SW) there is opportunity here to develop rules to mirror the economic and military exhaustion of the House militaries.

Armies might begin much reduced with damaged sub units. Raids might yield RPs or 'armour replacement points' that would allow units to be strengthened. Economies could be weakened enough to discourage major moves of massed commands until a certain amount of recovery had taken place. This recovery might involve not using the economy for war, investing instead in that recovery. Preventing enemy recovery might be the objective of the raids, forcing the enemy to commit units to the fight and thus forcing the use of RPs for rebuilding.

Victory might be gained in who can recover the most by 3005-3025 period rather than by conquest.

There are plenty of possibilities. It would be a shame to pass the 3rd SW by.
« Last Edit: 16 June 2016, 13:24:14 by The Purist »
Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thought upon the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

"...Remember also the two "prime directives" in playing BattleTech:
1. HAVE FUN
2. DON'T LET YOURSELF GET SO CAUGHT UP IN THE RULES THAT YOU STOP HAVING FUN"
Page 168 - Reunification War

ColBosch

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #172 on: 16 June 2016, 12:16:49 »
I also did not say that CGL won't be doing a 3rd Succession Wars book.
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ScrapYardArmory

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #173 on: 22 June 2016, 06:40:56 »
Looks like Adrian Gideon posted some seemingly important errata,

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50926.msg1228623#msg1228623

Combat Command costs are now broken out by weight class.  Interesting.  Looks like ISW development is ongoing.  A living breathing creature if you will.  Need to get my butt into gear and start a game of my own...

solmanian

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #174 on: 22 June 2016, 07:10:28 »
Too bad the infantry and artillery commands got no love. Artillery can be very different between weight classes. Infantry can come in many different shapes and sizes.

Should BA commands use infantry prices? Aerospace commands of Assault/PWS use ASF prices? Not to mention WSs.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Alexander Knight

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #175 on: 22 June 2016, 07:42:07 »
Notice you can buy "assault" Aerospace wings.

As ASF only go up to heavy, a reasonable assumption might be that the Assault wings are assault DS.  (Not PWS though).

solmanian

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #176 on: 22 June 2016, 08:05:51 »
Notice you can buy "assault" Aerospace wings.

As ASF only go up to heavy, a reasonable assumption might be that the Assault wings are assault DS.  (Not PWS though).
Actually, in those RATs that do use "assault" columns for ASFs, it's reserved for small crafts...
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Iracundus

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #177 on: 22 June 2016, 09:54:43 »
I couldn't seem to find any rules for improving Loyalty Ratings (read "political purge").  Maybe cost in RP to improve but also at the risk of reducing Experience Rating, and risk of triggering desertion?

I'd also be interested in more rules for actual House Lords, so one could have variation such as the militarily inexperienced but domestically/economically capable ruler, or vice versa, or rulers that inspire (or demoralize) and so on. 
« Last Edit: 22 June 2016, 10:00:45 by Iracundus »

Alexander Knight

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #178 on: 22 June 2016, 17:25:58 »
Actually, in those RATs that do use "assault" columns for ASFs, it's reserved for small crafts...

Actually, you'd be incorrect.  Both Historical: War of 3039 and First Succession War use the "Assault" column for Dropships, not small craft.

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Re: Interstellar Operations Final PDF Released, Lets Talk ACS and ISW
« Reply #179 on: 22 June 2016, 19:02:53 »
I couldn't seem to find any rules for improving Loyalty Ratings (read "political purge").  Maybe cost in RP to improve but also at the risk of reducing Experience Rating, and risk of triggering desertion?

Interesting take. I confess I'd see it as being part of the Closed State faction flaw, and presumed that purges were "Tuesday" in those societies. If any other sort of faction ran purges, it wouldn't just be triggering desertions in the affected unit, but up and down the line. And the whole area of internal revolution is incredibly messy, and IMHO best left out for the moment.

One alternative might be 'transfers' - moving 'unreliable' key officers & NCOs from one combat command to another. Cost, 1RP - it's paperwork and broken hopes, after all :) Once you commit that order,

For the unit being transferred from:
Roll 2D6; 4 or less, unit loses one loyalty level; 9 or more, unit increases one loyalty level. QUestionable units remain questionable.
Roll 2D6; 6 or less, unit loses one experience level. Green units remain green.

For unit being transferred to:
Roll 2D6; 2, unit  unit increases one loyalty level; 7+, unit loses one loyalty level. If a Questionable unit loses a level, turn it into a Merc unit employed by the opponent with the nearest Capital World.
Roll 2D6; 7 or less, unit loses one experience level. Green units remain green.

House rules, anyway!
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

 

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