Author Topic: Battle Armor ??'s  (Read 4245 times)

DarkISI

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #30 on: 17 August 2017, 11:01:05 »
It's all optional to me.

And actually not true.
The lost arm would mean 20+ damage, which means: PSR.
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monbvol

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #31 on: 17 August 2017, 11:10:16 »
Floating crits may be Tactical Operations but it is a rule published by CGL.

Even so I did just post two examples that takes no optional rules and if pressed I'm certain I can come up with more for how a standard mech can suddenly shift weight with no ill effect.

As such it seems a bit silly that they can't handle Battle Armor on a technological basis.

DarkISI

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #32 on: 17 August 2017, 11:13:44 »
Floating crits may be Tactical Operations but it is a rule published by CGL.

Even so I did just post two examples that takes no optional rules and if pressed I'm certain I can come up with more for how a standard mech can suddenly shift weight with no ill effect.

As such it seems a bit silly that they can't handle Battle Armor on a technological basis.

Actually, you are wrong about that.
Losing the arm means, the Mech took 20+ damage and has to make a PSR.
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monbvol

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #33 on: 17 August 2017, 11:21:25 »
Actually, you are wrong about that.
Losing the arm means, the Mech took 20+ damage and has to make a PSR.

Or any number of situations where an arm can be lost very rapidly without sustaining enough damage to force a PSR.

As a better example of such a situation say a fresh JM6-S Jager mech takes a Gauss Rifle to the arm and no other damage that turn.  It is not enough to force the 20+ damage or outright destroy the arm but if a 12 is rolled on the critical check that is now 14 tons very rapidly detached from the mech.

Even an empty arm would be a substantial shift of weight.

Seems I found at least one situation where it does not take 20+ damage.

I can find more if that isn't enough.

DarkISI

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #34 on: 17 August 2017, 11:24:19 »
Seems I found at least one situation where it does not take 20+ damage.

I can find more if that isn't enough.

Nope, rolling a twelve means the full arm is lost. If that arm has enough internal strucuture left to reach 20 points of damage, that is a PSR.
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monbvol

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #35 on: 17 August 2017, 11:44:43 »
I don't see that anywhere in Total Warfare.

This is all I can find:

Arm Blown Off (Arm)
This critical hit occurs when the player rolls a 12 on the
Determining Critical Hits Table, if the location hit is an arm, and
is automatic (the player rolling the critical hits cannot choose
to roll the three critical hits instead). The hit blows the arm off,
and the weapons and equipment mounted in that arm are no
longer available to the ’Mech. The arm may be picked up and
used as a club per the rules for Club Attacks, p. 145.

Even if I am missing something there are mechs that can't sustain 20+ damage and lose their arm in such a fashion.

So feel free to provide a citation.

If you cannot I am at a point of expecting an apology.

DarkISI

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #36 on: 17 August 2017, 11:55:17 »
I don't see that anywhere in Total Warfare.

This is all I can find:

Arm Blown Off (Arm)
This critical hit occurs when the player rolls a 12 on the
Determining Critical Hits Table, if the location hit is an arm, and
is automatic (the player rolling the critical hits cannot choose
to roll the three critical hits instead). The hit blows the arm off,
and the weapons and equipment mounted in that arm are no
longer available to the ’Mech. The arm may be picked up and
used as a club per the rules for Club Attacks, p. 145.

Even if I am missing something there are mechs that can't sustain 20+ damage and lose their arm in such a fashion.

So feel free to provide a citation.

If you cannot I am at a point of expecting an apology.

You look at the wrong section and expecting an apology is somewhat offensive, since I haven't insulted you, just pointed out where you misunderstood something.

The rule for a PSR because of 20+ Damage is quite simple: You took 20+ damage, you make a PSR. (TW page 60) Nowhere is it stated, that that damage must come directly from weapon attacks or other kind of attacks. No damage and an ammo explosion because of heat  that causes 20+ damage (assuming you survived)? PSR (except if you have CASE II, because that reduces the damage).
An arm that is taken of through a crit roll requires you to mark of enough bubbles that you have reached 20+ in a single phase? PSR.

If you doubt me, ask the question in the rules questions forums, you will get the same answer.
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monbvol

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #37 on: 17 August 2017, 12:10:25 »
Except the rule I quoted indicates nothing about remaining internal structure counting for the purposes of making a PSR for 20+ damage and in fact implies that the arm is still intact enough to use as a club.  Something that does not happen when a limb is destroyed by damage.

Also reading through page 60 it seems to only consider the damage actually done and likewise makes no mention of the remaining intact internal structure counting for the purposes of having received 20+ damage in the case of an arm being severed through a critical roll result of 12.

So nothing you have pointed to says I am wrong and actually implies you are the one failing to understand correctly.

Nor has anything you pointed to exclude the other possible scenarios.  Like what if a mech can't even take 20+ damage and loses an arm without taking 20+ damage.

DarkISI

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #38 on: 17 August 2017, 12:12:52 »
Except the rule I quoted indicates nothing about remaining internal structure counting for the purposes of making a PSR for 20+ damage and in fact implies that the arm is still intact enough to use as a club.  Something that does not happen when a limb is destroyed by damage.

Also reading through page 60 it seems to only consider the damage actually done and likewise makes no mention of the remaining intact internal structure counting for the purposes of having received 20+ damage in the case of an arm being severed through a critical roll result of 12.

So nothing you have pointed to says I am wrong and actually implies you are the one failing to understand correctly.

Nor has anything you pointed to exclude the other possible scenarios.  Like what if a mech can't even take 20+ damage and loses an arm without taking 20+ damage.

The arm has enough internal structure left to raise the number of damage take to 20+? Congratulations, you take 20+ damage. I really don't see what is so hard to understand.
And as I said before: If you think I'm wrong, ask in the rules question forums. I'm 90% certain we answered that question before, so you will receive the same answer we gave back then.
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monbvol

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #39 on: 17 August 2017, 12:27:09 »
Except it is explicitly stated damage done via subsequent physical attacks start the counter for damage at 0 again.  Which at the very least implies that the left over internal structure does not count if severed via a 12 result.

Also the fact that page 125 explicitly says that the arm can be picked up and used as a club indicates that the internal structure is still there and thus should not count as damage done to the mech.

Also the JM6-S Jagermech scenario I've been using only has 16 total damage capacity on it's arms.  So even if I am wrong(which I have asked about and if I am wrong I will admit it and apologize for wasting everyone's time) there are clearly scenarios where a mech can suddenly lose a lot of weight and suffer no ill effect as far as PSRs are concerned.
« Last Edit: 17 August 2017, 12:29:26 by monbvol »

Weirdo

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #40 on: 17 August 2017, 12:43:57 »
You are both going to calm down and step away from the discussion right now.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #41 on: 17 August 2017, 13:00:35 »
If I may interject and get back to the original question...

Battle Armor must be of the Mechanized variety in order to mount Omnimechs.  (Tech Manual p.167 to investigate some of the restrictions/limitations).  The section includes information regarding Magnetic clamps - which should not be confused with magnetic claws (such as those on the Salamander BA)... the difference being that clamps allow non-omni transport, claws modified the target number for anti-mech attacks.

As for the difference between Omni and Standard Manufacturing?  The "hand-holds" theory stands out as being the most acceptable fluff in my opinion: it gives the mechanized BA something to grip and then be carried into battle (I'm thinking of a Fire Truck with extra men riding on top, as a modest, modern example).  From the basic manipulator to a vibroclaw, whatever the Battle Armor use should have little to no impact on the performance of a given Omni... so I would leave anything regarding the gyro out.
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Re: Battle Armor ??'s
« Reply #42 on: 17 August 2017, 13:50:03 »
Locked pending moderator review.
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