Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion

[monbvol]

Luke was explicated to have been a stupendous pilot and gunner in the backstory. Aside from that, you got the impression that Darth Vader was fighting Luke seriously in The Return of the Jedi? His goal was to draw Luke to the dark side, not to kill him. I think you gravely misread the narrative of the original trilogy, and therefore misread the motives behind many actions. Darth Vader never gave Luke a serious fight.

Luke or Rey being Mary Sues can be argued but I don't think either one meets the most widely accepted definitions.

But that argument probably should take place elsewhere.

Also bottom line as Cinemasins says no movie is without sin.  Especially from a certain point of view.

[Minemech]

Luke or Rey being Mary Sues can be argued but I don't think either one meets the most widely accepted definitions.

I think Rey moved into a greyer area, but I could accept her being seen either way.

But that argument probably should take place elsewhere.

You are right that it could crowd out this thread. I believe that if it was restricted to discussion over individual scenes, or the arc of the narrative, it could be valid in this thread. It might be more efficient to have another thread as you have suggested; especially since we do not have an agreed upon convention for a Mary Sue, as your post rightly acknowledges.

Also bottom line as Cinemasins says no movie is without sin.  Especially from a certain point of view.

There are some fairly classy movies out there, but as a general rule it stands. You have to accept a premise to appreciate a performance.

[monbvol]

And there is subjective taste to take into consideration.  What one person thinks is great is not going to always be great to another person.

[William J. Pennington]

But Mary sue has become a term used for 'main character I do not like"

Put that on a T-shirt.  I'd buy two of them.

[Atlas3060]

I enjoyed it, even with the small flaws I could find to pick at.
Overall the message of "Let the past die" and such is constructive honestly.
This may very well be that one movie where some fans leave, if so then I can understand.
Personally I hope movie 9 provides as good of a story as this did.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

Even if it causes some fans to leave,  I think this movie gave the franchise the direction it needed.  I mean, if they had taken it in the expected direction, if it had done things the way the haters wanted...

...it wouldnt be long before it stated being like the EU all over again

[YingJanshi]

How would you guys define the Star Wars Saga? Originally I would have said it was about the Skywalker family. 1) Episode 1 introduces Anakin who is "destined" to restore balance to the force. 2) It was made clear that Rogue One (and by extension all of the one-shot movies) was not part of the Saga by the filmmakers (even though it took part in the same universe), hence why it didn't get the beginning text scrawl. But with the events of the recent movies, Harrison Ford being done with the franchise, the death of Carrie Fisher, it seems like that might not be quite accurate anymore. So what would you say the focus of the Saga is?

(Note, I'm not talking about the entire franchise/universe here, but specifically Episodes 1-8+, the movies that might be termed the heart of the franchise.)

[Triptych]

then so does every hero from every story ever told

Not really. The failings of the Greek heroes were the focal point of ancient theater.

Luke is much more so.

Nope. Luke got lucky in ANH when he was saved by Han Solo during the attack on the Death Star. And he never faced Vader until he had some training with the lightsaber in ESB, and he lost. Rey beat Kylo with no training on her first try.

According to the visual dictionary, they are MG-100 star fortresses. I suspect there was as name change between when FFG was given info and the final script. Wookieepedia splits the difference, calling them the MG-100 SF-17 Star fortress.

Visual dictionary also puts the design as dating back to the end of the Clonewars and put them in rebellion use during the galactic civil war. Which explains some of the fragility in the film.. Would be like taking WW2 bombers into a modern 4th gen+ air battle.

Also apparently the bombers don't 'drop' the bombs.. They are expelled by magnetic fields in the bomb racks. Once free of the bomber, the bombs apparently use magnetic fields to be drawn to the target.

This is what bothers me about the whole movie: the lack of internal consistency with the previous ones in the franchise.

We know there are missiles in this universe, so why bother with bombs? And if they couldn't put those bombs on a missile then why not just have the bombers go to lightspeed and close the distance that way instead of their slow sublight speed which leaves them vulnerable to attack?

Heck Kylo had missiles or torpedos in his own fighter when making an attack run against his mother.

[monbvol]

Simple.

The First Order has a much bigger bank account than the Resistance who have to make do with outdated cast offs with only a few of the latest and greatest fighters.

[marauder648]

BRAIN...MELTING!

[Deadborder]

Whoah.

[guardiandashi]

Not really. The failings of the Greek heroes were the focal point of ancient theater.
Nope. Luke got lucky in ANH when he was saved by Han Solo during the attack on the Death Star. And he never faced Vader until he had some training with the lightsaber in ESB, and he lost. Rey beat Kylo with no training on her first try.

This is what bothers me about the whole movie: the lack of internal consistency with the previous ones in the franchise.

We know there are missiles in this universe, so why bother with bombs? And if they couldn't put those bombs on a missile then why not just have the bombers go to lightspeed and close the distance that way instead of their slow sublight speed which leaves them vulnerable to attack?

Heck Kylo had missiles or torpedos in his own fighter when making an attack run against his mother.

the thing you have to remember is that there is a VERY good reason to use bombs for the rebellion /resistance, heck the imperials used bombs in empire strikes back, from the tie bombers on the asteroids while looking for the falcon.

the thing is bombs have a much higher payload to mass ratio compared to missiles so a bomber that can carry 2 missiles that weigh 1000 lbs each and say 500lb warhead, or 2 1000lb bombs with roughly 900lb warheads which means more boom in the same weight.

[beachhead1985]

I was really let down here.

I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but in terms of being an original movie, it was little better than Force Awakens; in that it was basically Empire with the events and scenes shuffled around and tweaked a bit and that really hurt the story. There were a few points as well where the modern politics leaked in and that always a letdown when it comes from a place of pettiness.

But hey! No death star this time! So yay for that, right?

[Drop Bear]

got out of ep8 a few hours ago, I was less than pleased with ep7, it wasn't a bad movie, but it could have bean so much more. ep8 was that more I wanted.

I may have to buy ep7 on disk, but not before ep8 is out on disk.

I need to say that the Porgs are the annoying little pieces of <Censored> you think they are, just not Ja-Ja bad.

[beachhead1985]

got out of ep8 a few hours ago, I was less than pleased with ep7, it wasn't a bad movie, but it could have bean so much more. ep8 was that more I wanted.

I may have to buy ep7 on disk, but not before ep8 is out on disk.

I need to say that the Porgs are the annoying little pieces of <Censored> you think they are, just not Ja-Ja bad.

And that was what Chewie was eating, right? Those Porgs were begging for scraps of their own roasted species, right?

[Foxx Ital]

I was really let down here.

I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but in terms of being an original movie, it was little better than Force Awakens; in that it was basically Empire with the events and scenes shuffled around and tweaked a bit and that really hurt the story. There were a few points as well where the modern politics leaked in and that always a letdown when it comes from a place of pettiness.

But hey! No death star this time! So yay for that, right?

They used.miniaturized death star tech at the end...that count? :)

[Skyth]

Nope. Luke got lucky in ANH when he was saved by Han Solo during the attack on the Death Star. And he never faced Vader until he had some training with the lightsaber in ESB, and he lost. Rey beat Kylo with no training on her first try.

And Kylo was already wounded then so not at anywhere close to 100% (Chewie got him and so did Finn).  Also, Rey was shown to be good at HtH combat earlier in the movie.  Same can't be said for Luke in ANH.

Also, Kylo is no where near as good as Vader. 

[Weirdo]

And that was what Chewie was eating, right? Those Porgs were begging for scraps of their own roasted species, right?

Hey, for all we know, the GizkasPorgs are already a cannibalistic species. :)

Honestly, I like their treatment. There was one scene focusing on them, then a couple throwaway flashes of that one Porg later on, and that's about it. The way the leadup kept implying they were going to be the Cute Thing© for this movie, I was honestly expecting a lot more screen time looking at them. As is, if you really hate the Porgs, you're not subjected to them enough to really ruin the rest of the movie, you can love or hate the rest on its own merits.

[Istal_Devalis]

Bombs vs missiles: You'd use bombs vs missiles for the same reason we do now. Missiles require guidance and propulsion systems. That takes room away from explosives, and some things are big and slow enough you don't really need to worry about missing. It also fits the 'WW2 in Space' visual aesthetic.

You realize we've had bombs in the OT too, right? We see Tie Bombers dropping them in Empire when trying to flush out the Falcon.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

And that was what Chewie was eating, right? Those Porgs were begging for scraps of their own roasted species, right?

Well I had a different perspective on the same scene(s) you saw.

The porg watching Chewie roast and just about begin to eat was crying/mourning, not begging.  The watering eyes were clear enough to me.  The initial flock ran off after one intimidating chewie roar, but that one that stuck around wasn't able to abandon the remains of the porg Chewie was trying to eat in peace.  Being able to recognize one's self proves self awareness, and is a measuring stick of intelligence.  That interaction strongly implies to me that not only can porgs recognize individuals, they're probably sapient/borderline sapient.  And by implication, Chewie probably murdered one in order to cook/eat it.  (I doubt he just scooped up one he found already dead)

Now, after that scene, Chewie seemed to realize all of this himself.  We never see him actually chow down on the cooked "corpse".  Chewie being a good guy and all, I see the subsequent "infestation" of the Falcon as Chewie's having *let* them onboard as way of apology/atonement for murdering and cooking and nearly eating one of their loved ones.  He's giving them a home and caring for them.  He even lets the critters up in the cockpit for trailer-worthy cries cuteness.

[sadlerbw]

See, I wasn't quite sure he was roasting an ACTUAL Porg. I thought he might be roasting some sort of space-chicken that happened to be about Porg-sized, and the little toothy puffin monsters were too dumb to realize it wasn't Grandma-on-a-stick. Still got a chuckle out of me!

[Tai Dai Cultist]

See, I wasn't quite sure he was roasting an ACTUAL Porg. I thought he might be roasting some sort of space-chicken that happened to be about Porg-sized, and the little toothy puffin monsters were too dumb to realize it wasn't Grandma-on-a-stick. Still got a chuckle out of me!

That could have been the case, but then it doesn't make sense as to why Chewie is permitting the Porgs to make themselves at home in the Falcon.  I doubt that it's a case of being Star Wars tribbles and they're impossible to get rid of once a ship "contracts" them... Chewie's permitting them right up there in the cockpit with him and everything.  I think Chewie had to have had a case of the "what have I done?"s after killing/cooking/almost eating Porg grandma.

[Banzai]

I think Rey moved into a greyer area, but I could accept her being seen either way. You are right that it could crowd out this thread.

As opposed to conversations about strapping hyperspace drives onto rocks...  ;)

This is a universe where the government thinks it makes sense to dump a huge amount of resources into creating a massive, FTL-capable space station that has "planet blowing-up" as its raison d'être.  Twice.  And that is just the original trilogy.  This isn't a reality of deeply thought out mathematics, or physics, or biology-- it is the reality of Ming the Merciless.  Because that's its DNA: Flash Gordon serials meet Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress meets Jungian pop-mysticism, with WWII dogfights.    And that is in no way a complaint - I have been in love with this universe since I was ten-years old.  But we tend to try to drag it into game stats and math (way more than understandable for BattleTech fans,) and that becomes unsatisfying because a lot of the SW universe isn't quantified that way.  It runs on Handwavium. 

[Banzai]

Simple.

The First Order has a much bigger bank account than the Resistance who have to make do with outdated cast offs with only a few of the latest and greatest fighters.

That would be my answer as well.  Bombs are much cheaper and less resource-intensive than missiles.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

A little perspective

http://mashable.com/2017/12/19/last-jedi-empire-strikes-back-haters

[Bedwyr]

As opposed to conversations about strapping hyperspace drives onto rocks...  ;)

This is a universe where the government thinks it makes sense to dump a huge amount of resources into creating a massive, FTL-capable space station that has "planet blowing-up" as its raison d'être.  Twice.  And that is just the original trilogy.  This isn't a reality of deeply thought out mathematics, or physics, or biology-- it is the reality of Ming the Merciless.  Because that's its DNA: Flash Gordon serials meet Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress meets Jungian pop-mysticism, with WWII dogfights.    And that is in no way a complaint - I have been in love with this universe since I was ten-years old.  But we tend to try to drag it into game stats and math (way more than understandable for BattleTech fans,) and that becomes unsatisfying because a lot of the SW universe isn't quantified that way.  It runs on Handwavium.

You forgot the Western freelancer/gunfighter elements in Han Solo. But everything else is very well said.

[I am Belch II]

It was a good movie. Was it a great movie....I dont think so. There was some great awesome parts, and there were some bad parts. I think it was better then Force Awakens just because it wasn't a copy of Empire Strikes Back, but it did have lots of Empire Strikes Back in it.

[Atlas3060]

How would you guys define the Star Wars Saga? .....

(Note, I'm not talking about the entire franchise/universe here, but specifically Episodes 1-8+, the movies that might be termed the heart of the franchise.)

Honestly I don't think there's just one definition, but I'll attempt a clumsy one.
Episodes 1 through 8 are about how the Force works in cycles, rising and falling, give and take.
1 through 6 focuses on the rise and fall of a supposed "Chosen One" with the eventual redemption of said person, unless you count his son as the Chosen One. Funny how prophecies are fulfilled...from a certain point of view.
7 shows how the Force reawakens since Luke pretty much cut himself from it earlier.
With that we get 8, basically an upheaval on the Force (and our expectations) because old families die, new heroes/foes emerge, and through it all is the Force. Always there to connect us.
The cycle will be there long after these characters are dead, Empires will fight Rebellions, Republics will rise again to learn nothing, and those living in the moment are like creatures living on falling specks of sand in some cosmic hourglass.

To steal from another franchise: "All of this has happened before and will again." That's what the core Star Wars movies are to me now after this.

[glitterboy2098]

Disney has already announced they are working on another trilogy focusing on Rey, Finn, Poe, and the other new chars for after Ep9.
plus another wholly original trilogy in the setting.

[Foxx Ital]

I watched someone rage quit the movie twords the end.