Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion

[Kitsune413]

Their Fixer told them that their Hacker was on the gambling planet.

Following your reasoning then episode 4 is the worst Star Wars in writing because they couldn't foreshadow anything for two movies since it was the first movie.

[iamfanboy]

The main problem is that it was filler - it stretched out four minor plot points (Find the slicer! People make money selling weapons! Finn doesn't know how the universe works! The kid who is later revealed to use the Force!) into almost thirty minutes of whizboom nothing much happens in terms of real plot movement.

Especially when the WHOLE SUBPLOT OF INFILTRATING THE SHIP is almost entirely pointless. It serves one purpose from a plot perspective: To get Finn on board the big wing in time for his big faceoff with the one who embodies his fear, Phasma.

And they clipped the climax of that scene as well.

When you compare it to the ticking clock of the fleet being chased, and the slow scenes of Luke and Rey interacting, it raises the pointlessness factor.

I'll quote myself from this thread as how they could have handled it much better:

So. The sneaking aboard subplot wasn't bad per se; my problem is how it started. Not sneaking away and standing up for what's important is a lesson he learned in the LAST movie, dammit, and any time you've got a character relearning old lessons in movies it's dead plot.

How I would have done it:

1) Finn and Poe hatch the plan. Maybe have Rose involved because the plan involves using an escape pod to just drift into the chaser fleet and she's the guard. Have shady guy involved because he's an expert slicer already working for the Resistance as a part-time thing and just got kind of swept up in the evacuation - perhaps he's a traitor already, perhaps he was a freelancer and didn't have time to leave on his own so he's mad about losing his ship. Give him MOTIVATION to betray.

2) Finn, Rose, slicer drift into the fleet. Maybe have some tense moments where a flyby of the pod doesn't pick up anything thanks to the slicer's efforts, maybe have the conversation about the source of the weapons here too. Have slicer reveal the Resistance BOMBER instead of an X-Wing so that Rose has to confront that maybe the Resistance isn't so squeaky-clean either - part of the failure of that little reveal is that Finn already doesn't believe much in the resistance, so why would he care? Focus on Rose's response!

3) They board the ship, and the rest of the subplot proceeds unchanged.

Ten minutes versus thirty-odd minutes. I still think it needs to be there to break up the Jedi training, but it was mostly... filler. I was watching an old MST3K episode (Fire Women of Venus) and that's what it reminded me of: the tensionless field walking and watching dials while they 'fly' to wherever it is they were going. Venus? Probably.

Now, that was from not long after the first time I watched it, I'm still waiting to get it on not-Bluray to watch it again and judge the subplot with some further perspective.

But I still think it was bad writing.

[Kitsune413]

I can't agree that it is bad writing...

A lot of people have pointed out that the whole thing was unnecessary.

But the point from the writers perspective was to have the gung ho flyboy hatch a plan that is 1. Unnecessary. and 2. Doesn't work.

I get it if you don't like it. But not liking something doesn't make it bad writing.

and after having rewatched the movie I feel like i'm basically down to thinking they did Phasma wrong... and maybe not splitting the movie into two because they cut alot of stuff. The cut scene with Luke and Rey is pretty important because Luke points out that Jedi are kind of lame and they need someone gung ho doing good stuff like Rey. The scenes between Finn and Rose and Phasma would have been good too. Oh and the ramming scene is still crazy and I'm not sure why the First Order wasn't talking about how crazy and strange it was and also didn't deal with them both being there.

But Poe is different after watching Holdo blow up and his big plan not working. He calls the assault on the battering ram. But also when people are ready to go fight alongside Luke he is able to tell them it's a bad idea.

That requires his big mutiny plan to not work. Could they have had a slicer on the Republic fleet who would still also betray them? Sure. But then the whole movie is on space ships and Finn and Rose would never be alone together to build a relationship. Also, Finn wouldn't identify as a rebel.

Writing a plan from the hero that's a mutiny that fails is a big risk for a writer because people aren't going to like it. The Last Jedi is a whole lot of not giving people what they want? Rey's parents? Nobodies. Luke Skywalker literally says, 'What did you expect, Luke Skywalker facing down the First Order with a laser sword?" Yes. We did expect that.

It doesn't strike me as bad writing or as lazy writing.

You were also talking about Finn relearning the same lesson... but he only goes to Starkiller base to save Rey. But throughout the second movie Finn becomes rebel scum.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

^this

We need a like button here

[Talen5000]

If it comes to the writing and we aren't talking about the specific scene where Rose rams Finn in a ship, or Captain Phasma kind of getting tossed aside in this movie I don't really see anything at all to the argument except someone desperately trying to not like something for maybe reasons they don't understand.

And yet...it is difficult to point out specifics when so much of it IS bad writing, bad writing, bad plotting.


The film took a hammer to the script to clear the boards and get rid of quite a few characters.
A lot of plot holes from Ep7 which people kept saying Ep8 would fill in remain plot holes
Reys parents being nobodies is a plot point that could have worked very well....IF it hadn't been built up as a "mystery". You don't show Chekovs gun and then don't use it
Rose was added to provide Finn with a forced and unnecessary romantic interest
Why Poe hasn't been arrested and shot for treason is anyone's guess
Holdo...should have been Ackbar. There was no reason for her character to be anyone else
Rey....sorry. She is a poor actress who dragged down every single scene she was in. It is a testament to Hamill that so much was salvaged
Finn...not Rey...is by far the most interesting character the story has introduced. How does a janitor get to know so much about top secret First Order projects and get himself assigned to Kylo Rens personal guard? It should have been a story about a stormtrooper turning good and becoming the hero...or heroine.  As it is, he should have died here making a heroic sacrifice
The entire casino planet was a waste
How Phasma was used was a disgrace
Snoke was misused
The bomber scene at the start was idiotic and highlights the First Orders incompetence even at their highest levels, undermining their threat as a villain.
The entire chase scene was pointless.

Redeeming points?
Hamill and Leia were great.
Boyega...despite the script...put in a decent performance as Finn.
There were a handful of scenes that were, for one reason or another, good. Lukes death is one...Lukes fight is another...Luke appearing to Leia yet another. I liked the hyperspeed ram scene, though again it is silly.  I even liked the Leia Poppins moment.

But outside Luke, likeable moments are few and far between.

People are expecting way more from Rey than they would expect from a male protagonist. In this same situation with a dude they'd be like, "Whoah. The force is so strong with that guy. Sick."

I'm expecting the dame thing from Rey as I did with Luke.

Decent acting....which we didn't get
An explanation as to her power, skill and knowledge without which she seems to have leapt from a nobody to someone capable of flying better than Han and being a stronger Force user than Kylo Ren.....in a couple of hours.

The entire movie takes a few hours. Just over a day at best.

Like... Poe's rush on a Star Destroyer with a prank call is bad writing. Rose ramming Finn with a ship is bad writing. Like what if they just both died from the collision? (On the other hand, I'm sure she was down for that rather than seeing this dude get melted.) But other than those two situations the movie is written well. You just didn't like it.

Casino world is "good writing"?
Poes little mutiny is "good writing"?
Snoke getting offed by a trick he should have seen coming a mile off is "good writing"?
Holdo is "good writing"?
The space chase is "good writing"?

[Kitsune413]

That's alot to unpack.

Let's start with something simple.

Why should Holdo have been Ackbar?

[iamfanboy]

Kitsune, I think we're arguing past each other, a bit; I'm saying that it's pointless to the plot, and you're saying it has a great deal of point for character development. Sometimes you sacrifice one for the other; a scene where Luke gets in trouble and Obi-Wan cuts off a guy's arm doesn't move the plot forward, but it does develop their characters as an innocent farmboy and a wise man capable of sudden, extreme violence.

But you have to find a balance, ESPECIALLY in cinema, where you don't have the time to develop characters in the same way as television.

I am not a kind editor. Sometimes you have to tell an author, "Kill your darlings," and the casino trip was obviously the darling of someone which should have been drowned in the scriptwriting stage so we didn't bloat the movie out to the longest run time of any Star Wars movie. (Seriously, half an hour longer than Empire Strikes back!)

Yes, as the script was written, there was no other way to move the plot forward, but that's kind of my point: The script should have been rewritten. Tightened. Made more concise. Focus on the two main plots, of Rey learning that Luke won't be the father she wants/Luke learning that even if he cuts himself from the Force the Force will not cut itself from him, and the desperate plight of the fleet escaping to contrast with the more character-oriented pace of the first plot.


I'm going to write something really harsh, now:

The Casino trip is almost as useless to The Last Jedi as pod racing was to the Phantom Menace. Both were tangents from the main plots of their movie for no real purpose other than to show off some hitherto unsuspected part of the Star Wars universe, and what little benefit there was to be had both character development and plot could have been done some other, more efficient way.

THAT'S what I mean by bad writing. It was inefficient. Sloppy. Stretched-out unnecessarily.

And the real crime to me is that TLJ forgot whose story it is. Yes, it has multiple plot threads (Rey, Poe, Kylo), but if TFA was Finn's story (where he learns to be a real boy), then this movie is Rey's. And it cut her character development so we could see a drunken toad in a suit scrabble at casino tokens while alien horsies run through a fancy building.

[HobbesHurlbut]

That's alot to unpack.

Let's start with something simple.

Why should Holdo have been Ackbar?

Well a related question would be; was it necessary for Ackbar to die in the bridge attack?

[iamfanboy]

Hm. I'll take this one. I've got time.

The film took a hammer to the script to clear the boards and get rid of quite a few characters.
A lot of plot holes from Ep7 which people kept saying Ep8 would fill in remain plot holes
Reys parents being nobodies is a plot point that could have worked very well....IF it hadn't been built up as a "mystery". You don't show Chekovs gun and then don't use it

It was a misdirect. Just because it wasn't resolved satisfactorily to you doesn't mean that it wasn't resolved. And if it's true... why did her memories show them flying away? We don't know that Kylo was telling the truth.

Rose was added to provide Finn with a forced and unnecessary romantic interest

Up til this point, we hadn't seen rank-and-file Resistance members, just the bosses and a top agent. Putting her in there gives a bit more believability to the cast. Also, this is the first time that we've EVER seen one character mourn another character in Star Wars - and Rose mourning her sister feels authentic.

Why Poe hasn't been arrested and shot for treason is anyone's guess

Saving the mutineers to be tried later, or possibly Holdo decided they couldn't afford to kill all of their remaining fighter pilots, especially elites. Yes, it SHOULD have been treated more heavily, but not spacing them outright made some sense.

Holdo...should have been Ackbar. There was no reason for her character to be anyone else

Akbar is a known quantity - Poe would have trusted him, the audience would have trusted him, and we would have lost the mutiny subplot. Holdo as an unknown quantity made Poe's movement much more believable.

Whether the movie would have been better without the mutiny subplot... yeah, it would have been. But with it in there, we needed someone other than Akbar in that role.

Plus, how would Akbar have SURVIVED the bridge being blown out? Leia, at least, had the Force to pull herself back. Akbar would have been on the bridge, the bridge was destroyed, ergo so was he.

Rey....sorry. She is a poor actress who dragged down every single scene she was in. It is a testament to Hamill that so much was salvaged

Personal judgement here, and one that echoes sentiments expressed by a lot of blatantly misogynist reviews - whether or not that reflects you personally, I refuse to judge at the moment.

She is a perfectly fine actress, playing the role of a child slave who grew up without parents and has absolutely no sense of humor. She makes a great straight man to the more comedic Mark Hamill moments.

Finn...not Rey...is by far the most interesting character the story has introduced. How does a janitor get to know so much about top secret First Order projects and get himself assigned to Kylo Rens personal guard? It should have been a story about a stormtrooper turning good and becoming the hero...or heroine.  As it is, he should have died here making a heroic sacrifice

I believe other media have established that stormtrooper is a part-time job, and the First Order has enough of a personnel problem that every trooper has other duties than just sitting around in a barracks polishing their guns. It reminds me of the Starship Troopers novel ethos ("every trooper works, every trooper fights") so appeals to me viscerally. Not Finn's fault that he got assigned a literal shit duty.

The entire casino planet was a waste

Yep.

How Phasma was used was a disgrace

The cut scene is better, because then you SEE that she is just as much a coward as Finn was, and that's why she gave in so quickly in TFA. But it's a sign of more things we lost thanks to the casino scene.

Snoke was misused

I... legitimately liked that. Remember that Ben Solo's Dark Side draw is fear, specifically fear of people stronger than he is. It makes perfect sense that he'd engineer the assassination of those stronger than he, and it lead to that absolutely awesome battle scene.

The bomber scene at the start was idiotic and highlights the First Orders incompetence even at their highest levels, undermining their threat as a villain.

I'm going to rewatch it, because frankly some of the stuff later on kind of wiped it from my mind, but I don't remember hating it.

The entire chase scene was pointless.

What's amazing to me is that people will point to TFA and TLJ elements and scream, "Rehash! Ripoff! Stolen!" and then look at something we legitimately have not seen in Star Wars before as stupid.

The plot needed something that provided tension and physical danger to the cast, to contrast the slower, more character-driven Rey/Luke interacting.

I'm expecting the dame thing from Rey as I did with Luke.

Decent acting....which we didn't get
An explanation as to her power, skill and knowledge without which she seems to have leapt from a nobody to someone capable of flying better than Han and being a stronger Force user than Kylo Ren.....in a couple of hours.

Acting is a subjective judgement, and the responsibility is split between actor and director (witness how BORING Samuel L. Jackson is as Mace Windu, or how much whining Luke does in A New Hope). Daisy Ridley was directed to be a very serious person who is driven by a overt goal (learn to use the Force to beat her enemies) and a subconscious goal (find a family) who was raised as a slave. She doesn't joke, and finds humor mostly confusing. When given a task, she DOES it, and doesn't enjoy tangents.

She also grew up disassembling and playing with the remains of Star Destroyers, and as per other media her main toy as a kid was a flight simulator that her boss let her keep because no one cared about buying it. If you haven't found that out sometime in the last two years... I hesitate to think of the Star Wars hate echo chambers you found yourself in.

And we don't know how the Force works. We legitimately DO NOT. We know that Force users can use telekinesis, see dimly in the future, influence minds, and sometimes shoot lightning. Saying, "Kylo should be stronger than Rey because he's trained!" doesn't enter into it, because we don't KNOW for sure that training really helps you become better able to use it. Also, why can't she be that much stronger than he is? No reason, other than the magic of the Skywalker name.

[iamfanboy]

Well a related question would be; was it necessary for Ackbar to die in the bridge attack?

Yes. Poe would have trusted Akbar to do the right thing (and probably be kept in the command loop), therefore he had to be killed to make the mutiny subplot move forward.

Whether or not keeping the mutiny subplot was a GOOD thing... *sigh* It probably would have been enough to try and get Finn on the big wing to disable the tracking so he could have his confrontation with Phasma, without any mutiny.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Reys parents being nobodies is a plot point that could have worked very well....IF it hadn't been built up as a "mystery". You don't show Chekovs gun and then don't use it

I don't really care about the rest of the arguments being presented, because honestly all of them were already hashed over in December and I'm not seeing anything new being added, but you darned well can show Chekov's gun and then not use it.  It's called a Red Herring and it's a very common element of fiction.

[Ruger]

An explanation as to her power, skill and knowledge without which she seems to have leapt from a nobody to someone capable of flying better than Han and being a stronger Force user than Kylo Ren.....in a couple of hours.

As to her piloting abilities, the background novels and other books have explained that she gained her piloting abilities the same way most pilots do, at least at first...lots and lots of simulator time...she salvaged a flight simulator from one of the wrecks of the surface of Jakku, and used it to while away many hours over the years...the flight simulator contained control simulations for several different starfighters, and freighters, including a YT-1300 light freighter...

That's alot to unpack.

Let's start with something simple.

Why should Holdo have been Ackbar?

Simply because he was a fan favorite, and deserved something more to many people (I mean, it's like a fan favorite merc unit in BTech being assigned to a planet during the Jihad, and then accidently killed off when the WoB take out that planet...nah, that would never happen, would it?  ;) )...then again, at least he died in battle in this one, unlike what I recall of his death in the old EU...

Ruger

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

To be honest, given the way that inexperienced heroes tend to fall into cockpits and instantly become aces and freaking Ewoks, who haven't even discovered metalworking yet, are able to use speederbikes with roughly the same level of competency as Scout Troopers, I think there's a very, very heavy implication that vehicle controls in the STU are really, really easy to use.

[Ruger]

To be honest, given the way that inexperienced heroes tend to fall into cockpits and instantly become aces and freaking Ewoks, who haven't even discovered metalworking yet, are able to use speederbikes with roughly the same level of competency as Scout Troopers, I think there's a very, very heavy implication that vehicle controls in the STU are really, really easy to use.

Which inexperienced heroes do this?

Luke?

Had years growing up flying T-16's through Beggar's Canyon back home...and backup from the Force...

Wedge?

Imperial Skystrike Academy training...

Han?

Also Imperial flight training (unless the new movie proves otherwise, but from the tv spots and trailers, this is still a constant)

Rey?

Flight simulator training, and Force backup...

Ezra?

Didn't actually do much flying until after Hera or Kanan could have started training him...

Anakin?

Drove pod racers (ok, so this one could be stretching things a bit, but he did have R2 helping him as well, and he was flying against early model Vulture droids)...and Force backup...

Red Five (Rogue One)

My understanding is that he was a cadet that got wasted shortly into his first battle at Scariff...

Teebo? (I think this was the Ewok that stole the speeder bike)

Nearly threw himself off the bike, and then kept it in a straight line until he grabbed a vine and swung off the bike...

Not sure we had any other "inexperienced" pilots mixing with the big boys for long...

Ruger

[Kitsune413]

Well a related question would be; was it necessary for Ackbar to die in the bridge attack?

I'm doing a scary practical, so I can't really reply, but while distrafing myself...

I saw someone else mention Poe has to not trust the new person. True.

Also, the missile strike needed to be demoralizing to the audience. Leia ends up being ok, but Ackbar exploding still adds weight to the situation.

[Kitsune413]

Having grown up reading about Buddhism and Taoism I know how the force works. Ironically. UNeil you say Midichlorians. But it's fine. I'm sure talks about religion are rule 4 territory. But look into buddhist interconnectedness  (I.e. we are all made out of the same stuff. So if I do something negative to you I'm doing it to me) and then just assume that some people can manipulate it.

[roosterboy]

Also, the missile strike needed to be demoralizing to the audience. Leia ends up being ok, but Ackbar exploding still adds weight to the situation.

I doubt most of the audience even realized that was Ackbar or even knew who Ackbar is.

[Kitsune413]

I agree.

Which, like you stated in your very first post, is a shame, because Holdo was quite likable.

[Daemion]

and after having rewatched the movie I feel like i'm basically down to thinking they did Phasma wrong... and maybe not splitting the movie into two because they cut alot of stuff. The cut scene with Luke and Rey is pretty important because Luke points out that Jedi are kind of lame and they need someone gung ho doing good stuff like Rey. The scenes between Finn and Rose and Phasma would have been good too. Oh and the ramming scene is still crazy and I'm not sure why the First Order wasn't talking about how crazy and strange it was and also didn't deal with them both being there.

Actually, this has been a bane for Star Wars in the past. I've seen the cut scenes for the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones and I thought to myself - 'Why did they do this?'  The excuse often given was film length.

So, maybe the writing wasn't bad, but the editing choices which came afterward. I wouldn't know unless I saw the script. And, from some of the behind the scenes, there were times when the Actors/Actresses had some input and influence on dialog and execution which can deviate from the script in large ways while in the middle of shooting.  A film is a collaborative effort at a story.

So, if you're trying to be semantic and suggest that the writing may not have been bad, then, yeah.  Won't know the truth of that until I see the script.

But, making compromises to keep it in one film, under budget, can still lead to overall bad storytelling.  And that's what I got out of Last Jedi.  Not merely mediocre 80s-style action film storytelling, (which falls prey to some of the same foibles that we've seen in Ep VIII) but abad over-all final product.  Yes, it looked great. Yes, some parts hit the emotional things it needed.  But, the disconnects and minor little things piled up too much, for me, anyway, that I didn't feel like I really liked the film after I watched it. Maybe not regret it, but I have no reason to go back and watch it a second time, and actually hesitate when contemplating the thought.


This definitely could have used a split-up.  Look what they did with Avengers: Infinity War.  That's effectively a two-parter.

[Kitsune413]

I'm going to write something really harsh, now:

The Casino trip is almost as useless to The Last Jedi as pod racing was to the Phantom Menace. Both were tangents from the main plots of their movie for no real purpose other than to show off some hitherto unsuspected part of the Star Wars universe, and what little benefit there was to be had both character development and plot could have been done some other, more efficient way.

THAT'S what I mean by bad writing. It was inefficient. Sloppy. Stretched-out unnecessarily.

And the real crime to me is that TLJ forgot whose story it is. Yes, it has multiple plot threads (Rey, Poe, Kylo), but if TFA was Finn's story (where he learns to be a real boy), then this movie is Rey's. And it cut her character development so we could see a drunken toad in a suit scrabble at casino tokens while alien horsies run through a fancy building.

I don't think TFA is Finn's story though. It seems like Rey's story to me... and we should point out that J.J. Abrams is the one who split up the characters. He sent Rey to see Luke and seperated her from Finn.

So that leaves Poe and Finn off with the fleet. We could cut Rey's story out completely other than her showing up to be the cavalry on salt hoth and the movie still works fine.

Having watched the movie a second time it's pretty crazy Rose and Finn are being executed at the exact same moment that Rey and Kylo are fighting over Luke's lightsaber. It's fine. That's why this is a movie and its supposed to be a fun one.

Anyways. I'd essentially just challenge your premise that the movies are made for one person or the other.

If you were to ask me which I would rather see, Mark Hamil being an adorable super nerd over being Skywalker again, or Rose and Finn wrecking the Casino I'd say...

The Snoke death scene/duel is probably the best bit of the movie.

I also like seeing Poe go berserk in an X-wing. It was fantastic when he did it over Maz's place and it was good here.

The thing I'd want removed from this movie the most? Rose ramming Finn's speeder. Don't get me wrong. The alternative of Finn getting vaporized by a laser for no reason isn't appealing to me. I just feel like the Imperials who are watching these two could have just blown them up while they're talking infront of a battle line and aren't really incredulous enough about the whole situation. Also why isn't Finn mangled? Girl next time just spin him out.

I don't know that I'd really rip anything else at all. It's an interesting really long movie insofar as I don't think it should be any longer but I'd like to see those scenes between Finn and Rose, The better Phasma scene, the caretakers village.

I remember when I saw it in theatre and my real thought for the movie is this.... The Salt planet should be the start of the third movie. But then I'd have had to wait to see some Vulptex's so alls well that ends well.

I kind of felt like DJ being in the prison was a bit too convenient and then that it's strange that they don't ask him why he was there... But they had like.... 30 minutes left and he did grab them a shuttle off world. Also they really wanted to escape. So honestly, I'd probably have not asked either. It was go time.

[Kitsune413]

This definitely could have used a split-up.  Look what they did with Avengers: Infinity War.  That's effectively a two-parter.

I agree there.

[Charlie 6]

I don't think TFA is Finn's story though. It seems like Rey's story to me...

Please excuse me for interjecting and I'm not certain where I read it but I seem to recall someone from Disney/Lucasfilm stating that TFA was Han's film, TLJ was Luke's film and Ep IX was meant to be Leia's.  Carrie Fisher's death disrupts that plan but the way Rian Johnson shot the film, in my opinion, opens they way for the a broader Star Wars experience than the Skywalker Saga.  Who knows, with the follow-on films we might end up with a film version of something that looks, smells, seems, but isn't quite Knights of the Old Republic. 

[iamfanboy]

I don't think TFA is Finn's story though. It seems like Rey's story to me... and we should point out that J.J. Abrams is the one who split up the characters. He sent Rey to see Luke and seperated her from Finn.

Remember, we're talking Hero's Journey protagonists. "a hero who goes on an adventure, and in a decisive crisis wins a victory, and then comes home changed or transformed." Or to be more prosaic, the character in a film who overcomes obstacles during the film and has the most growth as a character in the end of the film.

The Phantom Menace isn't Obi-Wan's or Anakin's story, because neither of them are opposed to the main obstacle or experience any major growth. It's Padme's: Her world is threatened and she risks everything to plead for help from the galactic government, only to find out that her faith in it was misguided, so she changes and is now willing to physically fight for her world, instead of mouthing platitudes about how war is wrong.

(If you're wondering why Phantom Menace is a bad movie, but could have been good, it's because Lucas didn't know whose story he was actually TELLING.)

The Force Awakens is Finn's story because he starts it as a coward; literally hiding from the first battle he's ever seen and panicking because he knows that he'll be punished if it's found out he didn't fire a single shot. At the end, he picks up a weapon he knows nothing about and is ready to die in combat against a space wizard for a cause he knows is just.

Rey's story is TLJ because she starts it having just lost one father figure and desperately seeking to replace him with another, and ends it knowing that she HAS a family: her comrades, and all the children of the Force. "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."

Poe ALSO changes a great deal, from a reckless lieutenant willing to make pyrrhic sacrifices to someone that UNDERSTANDS the men under your command are more precious than gold and you don't throw their lives away, but the main transformation is still Rey's.

So that leaves Poe and Finn off with the fleet. We could cut Rey's story out completely other than her showing up to be the cavalry on salt hoth and the movie still works fine.

But then that would miss discovering more about the Force, leave us hanging nowhere at the end of TFA, and would be a fundamentally worse movie. Star Wars is both whizbang lasers go pewpew spaceships go BANG and a philosophical discussion. We know that Luke fought Vader and saw himself behind the mask in the cave on Degobah because he brought a weapon in.

Anyways. I'd essentially just challenge your premise that the movies are made for one person or the other.

I know, and that's why I replied here, because I think you're not seeing it with a full perspective. You're not reasoning with complete knowledge, and I hope I made it clear.

If you were to ask me which I would rather see, Mark Hamil being an adorable super nerd over being Skywalker again, or Rose and Finn wrecking the Casino I'd say...

The Snoke death scene/duel is probably the best bit of the movie.

You'd say what? :P Mark Hamill being "Angry Master who Refuses to Teach" is just incredible in its homage to old kung fu movies, and it's what the movie NEEDED to counterbalance the more serious "We're all going to die if we don't find a way out" of the fleet chase.

The post-Snoke duel is amazing because it had all the spinny flashing laser swords of the prequels, with all of the actual EMOTION of the duels from the originals. THere's more going on than just "glowsticks hit each other", because we see that Rey and Ben COULD be a wonderful, nearly flawless couple if not for one thing: Ben's wholehearted dedication to the Dark Side. She rejects him in spite of being drawn to him.

Which I applauded because all too often in ANY media when it comes to bad men the trope is, "He isn't bad, just misguided, and I can fix him and he'll be perfect and love me the way I love him." That it isn't even an option is just intelligent writing.

The thing I'd want removed from this movie the most? Rose ramming Finn's speeder. Don't get me wrong. The alternative of Finn getting vaporized by a laser for no reason isn't appealing to me. I just feel like the Imperials who are watching these two could have just blown them up while they're talking infront of a battle line and aren't really incredulous enough about the whole situation. Also why isn't Finn mangled? Girl next time just spin him out.

I'd prefer him to just pull away when ordered to and clip that entire segment, with maybe him stopping to grab Rose and get the "Oooer, so romantic" moment that makes ladies swoon. It's pretty silly, if not as stupid as some of the other stuff.

I kind of felt like DJ being in the prison was a bit too convenient and then that it's strange that they don't ask him why he was there... But they had like.... 30 minutes left and he did grab them a shuttle off world. Also they really wanted to escape. So honestly, I'd probably have not asked either. It was go time.

Good gods, I'd actually FORGOTTEN they met the slicer in the prison. Chalk up another stupid thing for the casino subplot.

Who knows. I may do some kind of rough edit without any casino stuff and see how much shorter the movie would be thereby.

[Talen5000]

Which inexperienced heroes do this?

Rey

Luke?

Had years growing up flying T-16's through Beggar's Canyon back home...and backup from the Force...

The only character who actually needed a backstory to explain his flying skill got one. Wedge, Han et al were introduced as pilots while Luke was the Farmboy.

Rey was the scavenger who suddenly turned out to know how to fly ships better than professional pilots and had n9 9nscreen backstory to explain that skill.

She was a scavenger. That did not make her a pilot, a soldier, a force user, an expert with the lightsaber or anything other than a scavenger.

[Talen5000]

Hm. I'll take this one. I've got time.
It was a misdirect.

Then it was handled extremely badly.


But lets just state the truth. There is no overarcing story being told here. JJ hyped it up because he was setting the stage for a big reveal. Rian wanted a different take do cleared the board.

Just because it wasn't resolved satisfactorily to you doesn't mean that it wasn't resolved. And if it's ... why did her memories show them flying away? We don't know that Kylo was telling the truth. 

Yes...it was resolved. In an extraordinarily bad fashion that wasted the build up to the reveal. That's the problem...there is a huge build up and then, at the climax, a damp squib. This is a plot point that could have worked....but it is a reveal that doesn't justify the effort  the story put into it.

Hp til this point, we hadn't seen rank-and-file Resistance members, just the bosses and a top agent. Putting her in there gives a bit more believability to the cast. Also, this is the first time that we've EVER seen one character mourn another character in Star Wars - and Rose mourning her sister feels authentic.

Shes a useless character who dies nothing and adds nothing to the story except act as a badly written live interest for Finn. You say we needed mourning...we had Leia and Chewbacca after Hans death. We had Leia after Luke died. We had them mourning over characters we cared about.

Rose brought nothing to the story. She's another Jar Jar.

Akbar is a known quantity - Poe would have trusted him, the audience would have trusted him, and we would have lost the mutiny subplot. Holdo as an unknown quantity made Poe's movement much more believable.

Holdo is apparently a Resistance heroine known for her actions against the First Order who Pie admires.

Right up to the moment she tells him she agrees with Leias assessment that he recklessly and needlessly got their entire bomber force destroyed when he disobeyed orders and that she wasn't going to tell a mere Captain her plan.

After which he forgot she was in cimmand, decided he knew better, committed mutiny and set in motion a series of events that led to most of the Resistance being killed, just about completing the task he began at the start when he sent the Resistance entire bomber force to its destruction for no good reason other than he saw a chance at some glory.

Ackbar on the other hand....deserved a better fate than 2s screen time and being spaced

Plus, how would Akbar have SURVIVED the bridge being blown out? Leia, at least, had the Force to pull herself back. Akbar would have been on the bridge, the bridge was destroyed, ergo so was he.

The same way Holdo survived.

By NOT being there

Personal judgement here, and one that echoes sentiments expressed by a lot of blatantly misogynist reviews - whether or not that reflects you personally, I refuse to judge at the moment. 

Yes....the usual "dismiss the argument because he's a woman hater" nonsense.

I simply find Daisy Ridley a bad actress. She was bad in TFA, she was bad in Murder on the Orient Express, she was bad in TLJ. I'm at a loss to understand how she got the role. She is unconvincing in any of her roles.

Carrie Fisher was good. Felicity Jones was good. Daisy Ridley is not. She was carried by Harrison Ford  in TFA and by Hamill in TFA.

Remember that Ben Solo's Dark Side draw is fear, specifically fear of people stronger than he is. It makes perfect sense that he'd engineer the assassination of those stronger than he, and it lead to that absolutely awesome battle scene.

Point being if Snoke was as strong as he was made out to be, Bens parlour trick shouldn't have worked.

I'm going to rewatch it, because frankly some of the stuff later on kind of wiped it from my mind, but I don't remember hating it. What's amazing to me is that people will point to TFA and TLJ elements and scream, "Rehash! Ripoff! Stolen!" and then look at something we legitimately have not seen in Star Wars before as stupid.

Being new doesn't mean it isn't stupid.

She also grew up disassembling and playing with the remains of Star Destroyers, and as per other media

Other media doesn't count. You put the story in one place. If you expect other media or other films to fill in plot holes, you've made a bad movie.

Also, why can't she be that much stronger than he is? No reason, other than the magic of the Skywalker name.

Because without the backstory and context up there on the screen, it makes her a Mary Sue.

It took Anakin years of training to master the force.
It took Luke years of training to master the force
It took Kylo years of training to master the force.

Rey picks it up in a couple of hours through simple osmosis. And you want to argue we can ignore 40 years of SW characters being shown as needing training to learn the Force and grow string with it because the story says so?

Self taught would be a way to handle it.
Picked up out of nowhere, going from a nothing to standing toe to toe with the most powerful Force users in the galaxy with zero practise, and a couple of hours training with Luke?

And you still want to argue this is a good story?

[iamfanboy]

But lets just state the truth. There is no overarcing story being told here. JJ hyped it up because he was setting the stage for a big reveal. Rian wanted a different take do cleared the board.

And the people who approved it are Pablo Hildalgo and the guy in charge of the Jedi Holocron. There's an overarching editorial vision here.

Yes...it was resolved. In an extraordinarily bad fashion that wasted the build up to the reveal. That's the problem...there is a huge build up and then, at the climax, a damp squib. This is a plot point that could have worked....but it is a reveal that doesn't justify the effort  the story put into it.

Really? She's no one. Nobody. Her family abandoned her, she was self-delusional when she thought that her parents were important and coming back for her, and there is no big secret.

It's the sort of thing that would have broken a lesser person.

Shes a useless character who dies nothing and adds nothing to the story except act as a badly written live interest for Finn. You say we needed mourning...we had Leia and Chewbacca after Hans death. We had Leia after Luke died. We had them mourning over characters we cared about.

Rose brought nothing to the story. She's another Jar Jar.

Then there's no further point in arguing here, I think. I don't particularly regard her as all that important, to be honest (the whole casino subplot, which hinges on her, is one of my big problems), but I like the introduction of another female character who has her own distinct personality and reasons for being there.

Holdo is apparently a Resistance heroine known for her actions against the First Order who Pie admires.

Right up to the moment she tells him she agrees with Leias assessment that he recklessly and needlessly got their entire bomber force destroyed when he disobeyed orders and that she wasn't going to tell a mere Captain her plan.

After which he forgot she was in cimmand, decided he knew better, committed mutiny and set in motion a series of events that led to most of the Resistance being killed, just about completing the task he began at the start when he sent the Resistance entire bomber force to its destruction for no good reason other than he saw a chance at some glory.

Ackbar on the other hand....deserved a better fate than 2s screen time and being spaced

Here is where we both agree and disagree. The mutiny subplot existed for one reason: To get Finn aboard the big space wing so he could confront Phasma. Rewatching the movie, I'm not sure I see the necessity of this AT ALL. I think I'd rather cut it entirely.

The same way Holdo survived. By NOT being there

She was actually stationed on another ship and transferred over when she took command. But would Akbar have been anywhere but the flagship?

Yes....the usual "dismiss the argument because he's a woman hater" nonsense.

I simply find Daisy Ridley a bad actress. She was bad in TFA, she was bad in Murder on the Orient Express, she was bad in TLJ. I'm at a loss to understand how she got the role. She is unconvincing in any of her roles.

Carrie Fisher was good. Felicity Jones was good. Daisy Ridley is not. She was carried by Harrison Ford  in TFA and by Hamill in TFA.

She's subtle. Understated. I won't say she's great, because she hasn't been AROUND long enough to become great, but she emotes properly and manages to be a great straight man. I'd love to see her in a boke/tsukkomi comedy skit.

Point being if Snoke was as strong as he was made out to be, Bens parlour trick shouldn't have worked.

I think that was the point. He wasn't as strong as he was made out to be. But it took some doing in order to make the killing happened.

Being new doesn't mean it isn't stupid.

What's wrong with it, aside from the obvious which we are not told (that they must have jumped close enough to the salt world to fly there in sublight terms)? I mean, it's a classic ticking clock scenario. It reminded me of Master & Commander. Certainly no more silly than Bespin being close enough to fly to without Leia running out of makeup.

Other media doesn't count. You put the story in one place. If you expect other media or other films to fill in plot holes, you've made a bad movie.

Like how we know that bullseyeing womp rats in a T-16 is somehow comparable to piloting an X-Wing? Or how three foot teddy bears somehow managed to elevate two multiple-ton tree trunks NEAR A PATROLLED BASE at the right height to squash an AT-ST's head? Or how complaining about sand somehow made little orphan Annie irresistable?

Because without the backstory and context up there on the screen, it makes her a Mary Sue.

It took Anakin years of training to master the force.
It took Luke years of training to master the force
It took Kylo years of training to master the force.

Rey picks it up in a couple of hours through simple osmosis. And you want to argue we can ignore 40 years of SW characters being shown as needing training to learn the Force and grow string with it because the story says so?

But we know that people can use the Force without training. How is Anakin the only human pod racer pilot, and has survived multiple crashes? The Force. That kid with the broom at the end is meant to drive home that point: Yes, it teaches you new ways, but the main point of Sith/Jedi training isn't about using the Force, it's about using it the right way. Or the wrong way. Depending on your point of view.

Self taught would be a way to handle it.
Picked up out of nowhere, going from a nothing to standing toe to toe with the most powerful Force users in the galaxy with zero practise, and a couple of hours training with Luke?

The sense is that days, at least, had to pass in that chase. Hyperspace travel isn't instant, and there were several trips back and forth there. Travel time, however, is never stated in any official Star Wars products.

And the Force, it seems, stems from determination, will, and/or belief. Why does Luke fail to lift the X-Wing? Because he thinks it's impossible. He gives up. Rey's damage is an entirely different direction, and her determination and willpower is, apparently, second to none.

And you still want to argue this is a good story?

Apparently, you missed the part where I ranked this one as just above the prequels. In my mind, it's barely better than "You're breaking my heart, Annie!" or "This is pod racing!"

But yes, it is a perfectly fine story. The young hero goes up the mountain to learn what the master knows. The master gives the hero one raised finger and says, "I am done," only to learn that it is time for the master to step on the wheel once more... meantime, the hero's friends are in mounting peril and only a desperate, last-ditch scheme can save them all.

The movie has serious flaws. It also has brilliant moments. In that, it has good company - all the other Star Wars movies. If it has a few more flaws in it than some of the other ones...

It's still better than Jar Jar Binks stepping in the poopy.

Hm. "When you stand in the middle of the road, you take fire from both sides."

[roosterboy]

Or how three foot teddy bears somehow managed to elevate two multiple-ton tree trunks NEAR A PATROLLED BASE at the right height to squash an AT-ST's head?

From what we saw, there wasn't a hell of a lot of patrolling going on around the shield bunker. Just a handful of troopers.

And those three-foot teddy bears managed to construct an extensive tree village, so why would a couple of logs be an issue?

[Kitsune413]

Talen, can you extrapolate on your, "Rose Is another Jar Jar binks" comment. I'm doing my best to assume that the statement isn't as horrific as I think it is.

[Weirdo]

Locked pending moderator review.

In addition, "character X is only present to appeal to Y demographic" comments are NEVER tolerated around here. When you say that, you are saying that characters of Y demographic do not deserve to be present on their own merits. We do not allow discriminatory posts on this forum, and every single one of you agreed to that rule when you signed up here. There are plenty of dark fetid corners in the internet, take it there.

[Moonsword]

Ladies and gentlemen, moderator injunctions against gender or demographic discussions have now been left at least three times in this thread, including once before in the last week.

Knock it off.

We're going to leave this thread locked, and no new thread on the Star Wars films is to be created for a week to give everyone some time to cool down and get it out of their system.  When a new thread is opened, this type of discussion will still be off-limits.