Author Topic: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era  (Read 3719 times)

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #30 on: 14 January 2024, 12:05:02 »
I think Cannonshop makes a solid argument for a collarless WarShip carrying a Squadron or two of Fighters and Small Craft.  Outside of Mobile HPGs, collars are the most expensive part of any jump-capable ship.

Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #31 on: 14 January 2024, 12:21:23 »
I think Cannonshop makes a solid argument for a collarless WarShip carrying a Squadron or two of Fighters and Small Craft.  Outside of Mobile HPGs, collars are the most expensive part of any jump-capable ship.

Where is CS calling for collarless?

I see the post about spreading your navy around to have a "More Numerous" navy v/s a "Big Ship" navy, but I don't see anything about collars.  (I might be blind)

I honestly have issues w/ the way C-Bills work in Aerotech, I'm not sure I buy into the Fasanomics of the calculations.

I can fully get behind a "smaller/zerg it" navy that can deploy in many areas v/s a Leviathan navy. 

Not sure I buy into collarless unless we are somehow forced to use C-Bills & limited by them.  Otherwise I'd think Raw Mass in Materials & size/capacity of the shipyard is by far the bigger factor.

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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #32 on: 14 January 2024, 12:24:20 »
The cost argument he makes sings collarless to me.  JumpShips are a WAY cheaper way to move DropShips around.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #33 on: 14 January 2024, 12:43:14 »
Dang it, and I totally forgot to say I've been reading up on Mobile HPGs... it seems it might be cheaper (and safer) to mount a Ground Mobile (12 ton) one on an ASF than build a Mobile (50 ton) one into a WarShip, though a JumpShip mounted one might make sense.  At that cost point, the unit type final multiplier really matters, not to mention the "no weapons fire" restriction when getting a message out.  It really makes me consider if you could mount one on a missile and recover it later.  I think David Drake might have had a similar concept in his RCN universe.

For reference:
ASF: x(1+Tonnage/200)
Small Craft: x(1+Tonnage/50)
JumpShips: x1.25
WarShips: x2
Space Stations: x5
Spheroid DropShips: x28
Aerodyne DropShips: x36 (!)

Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #34 on: 14 January 2024, 18:25:11 »
Dang it, and I totally forgot to say I've been reading up on Mobile HPGs... it seems it might be cheaper (and safer) to mount a Ground Mobile (12 ton) one on an ASF than build a Mobile (50 ton) one into a WarShip, though a JumpShip mounted one might make sense.  At that cost point, the unit type final multiplier really matters, not to mention the "no weapons fire" restriction when getting a message out.  It really makes me consider if you could mount one on a missile and recover it later.  I think David Drake might have had a similar concept in his RCN universe.

For reference:
ASF: x(1+Tonnage/200)
Small Craft: x(1+Tonnage/50)
JumpShips: x1.25
WarShips: x2
Space Stations: x5
Spheroid DropShips: x28
Aerodyne DropShips: x36 (!)

Hmm, At the very least, its a "lower" degree of "customization" to use an Omnifighter for this task and allows for moving it around based on mission needs for the wing.
But in turn, I'm not sure how C-Bill costs come into play when Fighter Tonnage can vary from Omni to Omni, very odd

I'd probably go w/ a Jumpship myself.
Something like the Hunter w/ LFB & MHPG is a great scout ship & a couple in a major capital fleet can handle all the messages you need.


EDIT:   Just remembered the Omni cost is +25%
So at that rate a 25 ton OF matches Jumpship & only 20 ton would beat it.
Otherwise its 45T or smaller standard ASF.

Yeah, I'm sticking w/ JS (Hunter) concept.
« Last Edit: 14 January 2024, 19:19:49 by Hellraiser »
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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #35 on: 14 January 2024, 18:35:05 »
I think the good news is that AMS aren't technically "weapons", so you can still fend off some attacks even while transmitting or receiving.  A JumpShip might be more operationally flexible, but buying a whole other jump core might cancel any cost savings from doing it with something smaller.

Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #36 on: 14 January 2024, 18:47:01 »
I was more pointing out that as part of an entire Navy, the Hunter-LFB/HPG concept works well.

It's a scout ship all by itself, or, as part of a taskforce its the lead ship to recon the system before the fleet jumps in.

And has the same modifier as a Corsair ASF.

Anything smaller as an ASF will likely be very slow for it's size/frame.


3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #37 on: 14 January 2024, 19:12:26 »
No doubt!  You need 12 tons just for the HPG.

Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #38 on: 14 January 2024, 19:52:35 »
I kind of wish the Dropshuttle Bay had persisted in some form so we could still bring some small, niche Dropship designs like Vampires or Miryus without having them take up valuable hardpoint space.

Well, you could carry a couple in a reinforced repair bay.  The disadvantage here is that there is no published deployment time.  You could also carry the dropships in a cargo bay, flush the atmosphere from the cargo bay, and then slowly (and carefully) have a crew move them out of the bay at zero G.  The point of having all 5 dropship hardpoints is that you can jump directly into a combat zone ready to go, not that you must.

Isn't there a rule that you can't jump if something w/ a Docking Collar is NOT attached to a Docking Hardpoint?

I feel like there is something about not cramming dropships into cargo bays for a Jump.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #39 on: 14 January 2024, 20:39:08 »
That sounds familiar, but I can't place it off the top of my head.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #40 on: 14 January 2024, 21:26:23 »
Isn't there a rule that you can't jump if something w/ a Docking Collar is NOT attached to a Docking Hardpoint?

Yes. If the dropship is equipped with a modern docking collar and associated KF-boom, then it has to connected the docking collar of the parent ship to be transported via jumping.

Getting around that purely by the rules would probably require a retrotech design, which would create other rules related nonsensicality.

However, putting a repair bay on the parent ship would work as 1) repair bays automatically have the equivalent of two docking collars as part of their internal systems, and 2) they can be scaled down very small to accommodate a very small craft.

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #41 on: 14 January 2024, 21:43:59 »
However, putting a repair bay on the parent ship would work as 1) repair bays automatically have the equivalent of two docking collars as part of their internal systems, and 2) they can be scaled down very small to accommodate a very small craft.
Are those 2 "free" collars reflected in the C-Bill calculations for the Warship?

If Yes, then, meh, not really a win there.

If NO on the other hand, might be a way to get some "transports" that can go to/from planet transferring cargo or picking up ground forces that deployed from orbit.
Thinking Nightlord/Robinson type here.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #42 on: 14 January 2024, 22:34:59 »
Based on TacOps:AUE page 146, I believe they do count for cost purposes.

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #43 on: 14 January 2024, 22:56:50 »
Yes. If the dropship is equipped with a modern docking collar and associated KF-boom, then it has to connected the docking collar of the parent ship to be transported via jumping.
Do you know where these rules are?  I reviewed Interstellar Ops and Strat Ops, but could not find anything, then I looked through errata (nothing), and then through Q&A finding these two entries

There's nothing about a KF-boom interfering, but these do point out that the cargo rules are only for aerospace unit bay<->aerospace unit bay or aerospace unit bay<->ground.

However, putting a repair bay on the parent ship would work as 1) repair bays automatically have the equivalent of two docking collars as part of their internal systems, and 2) they can be scaled down very small to accommodate a very small craft.
The workaround here is to load from Cargo Bay to the reinforced repair bay, then launch from the reinforced repair bay.  I added some text describing this.

Incidentally, I also downgraded to 3 dropcollars, as per the original Kirishima, primarily for cost reasons.  Hopefully, 3 Miru will be enough if you have to jump directly into a combat zone.  With this change, I believe this is a class D refit of the original Kirishima.

...
Yeah, something like that is viable as an alternative to the Miru.  The difficulty of course is that it costs the same as a low end warship so it's tempting to just get a warship instead.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #44 on: 15 January 2024, 04:04:33 »
Yeah, something like that is viable as an alternative to the Miru.  The difficulty of course is that it costs the same as a low end warship so it's tempting to just get a warship instead.

The difficulty with having pocket warships that cost

True. Well, I don't want to compete with or degrade your idea, though, and I do think that a 400 tons dropship with Naval C3 is a brilliant idea and would be quite viable as well. I just want to have the totally different approach - how to withstand against warship fleet without one or only backed by fewer warships, although naval C3 is better with an another warship at least. Although the cost is a factor, but the compack K-F drive is also an another factor as well, and that's the starting point on my idea. There would be some shipyards to making the dropships, but even the weight of your bank vault cannot increase the numbers of your shipyard capable to making the compact K-F drive easily and faster.

Also, you better not care much for the long term operation for a 400 tons dropship. It just can't help, for what it could take is barely better than an ASF and/or a small craft. Consider its tonnage you better think it as the bigger ASF.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2024, 04:11:04 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #45 on: 15 January 2024, 08:49:55 »
True. Well, I don't want to compete with or degrade your idea, though,
No worries, and it's good to illustrate the alternative.  (BTW, MML seems to not list Naval C3? I had to add it manually.)

For the alternative, you can get something almost as tough as the escort at a smaller scale, say 5K tons, reducing the cost notably. 

Another approach is to use a more moderately tough dropship with an array of screen launchers for mobile cover. 

Also, you better not care much for the long term operation for a 400 tons dropship. It just can't help, for what it could take is barely better than an ASF and/or a small craft. Consider its tonnage you better think it as the bigger ASF.
Yep.

Cannonshop

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #46 on: 15 January 2024, 11:55:33 »
Where is CS calling for collarless?

I see the post about spreading your navy around to have a "More Numerous" navy v/s a "Big Ship" navy, but I don't see anything about collars.  (I might be blind)

I honestly have issues w/ the way C-Bills work in Aerotech, I'm not sure I buy into the Fasanomics of the calculations.

I can fully get behind a "smaller/zerg it" navy that can deploy in many areas v/s a Leviathan navy. 

Not sure I buy into collarless unless we are somehow forced to use C-Bills & limited by them.  Otherwise I'd think Raw Mass in Materials & size/capacity of the shipyard is by far the bigger factor.

I actually wasn't really thinking about collars/no-collars.  I was thinking more in terms of addressing navies.  The first thing to address is addressing what a Navy is actually for, and that's a strategic, as opposed to tactical, force.

Not so much 'Zerg' as coverage and flexibility.

When you tott up the manpower requirements for those biggest-scale battleships, you're concentrating a huge portion of your skilled spacers and officers onto a platform that can really only cover one system at a time, and with the limitations at the start, that means making the most out of the recruitment and training (and the need to build up experience in those officers and crews if you ever WANT to build bigger ships.)

The best 'starter' navy doesn't begin with megacarriers or battleships, it's what some wags in the real world call a 'Frigate Navy'-that is, a navy mostly made of Corvettes and lighter ships, that can pull multiple missions simultaneously without straining your national budget on every single individual deployment.

basically, "Utility" ships with some capital armament, that can fill LOTS of roles without being ships you can't survive losing a few of.

At least, to start with.  This also lets you invest in the infrastructure to expand on-such as fueling/charging stations, service stations and ordnance depots, sensor satellite networks, and the rest that are things that make your warships much more effective and eases upkeep.

IMHO, canon vessels like the classic Tracker, Zechetinu or similar vessels are ideal for a starting (or re-starting) navy, call it 'phase one'

A 'Phase Two" navy would include armed transports like the Fox, because your phase ones should show you what you need in terms of escorting/supporting units to keep those armed transports alive and make them more useful as command platforms.

In my opinion, you don't start needing (or having a real use for) Cruisers until the third or fourth phase, after you've got a cadre of senior officers with warship experience to draw from, at least some experience in developing and using doctrine, and enough 'popcorn' units to cover non-offense, training, and utility roles.

Phase three is where you can start looking at highly specialized designs and designs that only make real sense if you're playing offense against high-peer opponents where you actually NEED the huge platform with lots of big guns, and can afford to actually staff and crew it, without gutting your personnel in the infrastructure levels or lower-tier units.

aka you're able to turn out enough junior officers,have enoug middle officers, and enough senior officers that you're not putting 'mechwarriors or Clerks in command positions just to get it out of the shipyard.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2024, 11:57:08 by Cannonshop »
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Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #47 on: 15 January 2024, 13:01:57 »
Heh... and phase five is where you forget what low-end units can do for you... ;D

Gorgon

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #48 on: 15 January 2024, 14:27:21 »
Building on the discussion of the merit of starting with small ships, here's Ioto Galactic's bit for a low level corvette, hopefully to be sold not only to the Lyran Commonwealth but maybe even exported to smaller entities like the Marians, Regulans, Taurians... who ever shows promise in destabilizing political rivals and has the cash to spare. The Raider's biggest draw is that it's the same size as an Invader. Any yard capable of maintaining Invaders can be upgraded by Ioto to maintain Raiders as well. At least that's the marketing pitch.

Code: [Select]
Raider Picket Corvette
Mass: 150,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 150,000
Battle Value: 34,947
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-X
Cost: 6,724,383,600 C-bills

Fuel: 1,200 tons (6,000)
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 400 (800)
Structural Integrity: 60

Armor
    Nose: 31
    Fore Sides: 32/32
    Aft Sides: 32/32
    Aft: 21

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (18)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (6)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (17621.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    9,360 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (780 tons),
    60 rounds of Heavy N-Gauss ammunition (30 tons),
    120 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (1,200 tons),
    4,400 rounds of Rotary AC/5 ammunition (220 tons),
    1,920 rounds of LRM 20 Artemis-capable ammunition (320 tons),
    180 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (5,400 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 3
Grav Decks: 1 (65 m)
Escape Pods: 18
Life Boats: 18
Crew:  28 officers, 48 enlisted/non-rated, 46 gunners, 66 bay personnel, 40 passengers, 20 BA marines       

Notes: Mounts 180 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (139 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)      30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                      96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
FRS/FLS (37 Heat)
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                         24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Artemis-capable Ammo (480 shots)
RBS/LBS (244 Heat)
1 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                       18   30(300) 30(300) 30(300) 30(300)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (30 shots)
8 Sub-Capital Laser /1                      192  8(80)   8(80)   8(80)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
4 Rotary AC/5                                4   8(80)   8(80)    0(0)     0(0)   AC         
    Rotary AC/5 Ammo (1600 shots)
3 Screen Launcher                           30   45(450)  0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (60 shots)
ARS/ALS (67 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)      30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                         24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Artemis-capable Ammo (480 shots)
Aft (112 Heat)
4 Sub-Capital Laser /1                      96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
13 Anti-Missile System                      13   4(39)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1560 shots)
3 Rotary AC/5                                3   6(60)   6(60)    0(0)     0(0)   AC         
    Rotary AC/5 Ammo (1200 shots)
   
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Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #49 on: 15 January 2024, 14:33:33 »
Not bad... all it's missing is some NL/45s for the Extreme Range AAA... ;)

Gorgon

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #50 on: 15 January 2024, 14:55:33 »
That's true, but I wanted the extreme range hammer only a heavy naval gauss rifle can provide, so sacrifices had to be made.  :laugh:
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Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #51 on: 15 January 2024, 14:59:40 »
Whatever works for you! :)

Hellraiser

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #52 on: 15 January 2024, 20:42:28 »
I actually wasn't really thinking about collars/no-collars.  I was thinking more in terms of addressing navies.  The first thing to address is addressing what a Navy is actually for, and that's a strategic, as opposed to tactical, force.

Not so much 'Zerg' as coverage and flexibility.
Gotcha, that is what I thought you meant.
And perhaps Zerg (swarms of things that die but overrun) wasn't the best term, but I mean what you mean,  "disbursed options", as you say, "coverage & flexibility"

Quote
The best 'starter' navy doesn't begin with megacarriers or battleships, it's what some wags in the real world call a 'Frigate Navy'-that is, a navy mostly made of Corvettes and lighter ships, that can pull multiple missions simultaneously without straining your national budget on every single individual deployment.

IMHO, canon vessels like the classic Tracker, Zechetinu or similar vessels are ideal for a starting (or re-starting) navy, call it 'phase one'

A 'Phase Two" navy would include armed transports like the Fox, because your phase ones should show you what you need in terms of escorting/supporting units to keep those armed transports alive and make them more useful as command platforms.
See my original post, the Tracker & Fox happen to be critical components to how I'd rebuild using existing "Introtech 5" JS from DS/JS.

It wasn't exactly what the OP wanted but I recalled it from a decade ago & felt it was fairly compatible.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Smegish

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #53 on: 16 January 2024, 01:01:55 »
And now for the Capellan Confederations entry into the Arms Race.

Confederation-class Cruiser

With the Magistracy-designed Centrella-class frigate being offered to them for general patrol duties, the Chancellor (after asking how the Magistracy managed to get a WarShip design finalised before his servant had even started their own) instead commanded the Ministry of the Military to design a larger ship to serve as the heart of a battle fleet to one day retake worlds stolen from the Chancellors loving embrace . To save time the Ministry went digging through their archives and decided that modifying the old Feng Huang-class Cruiser would be faster and easier than starting from scratch.

Starting with the same 970kt hull and drive systems along with the Lithium-Fusion batteries found on the older design, the designers kept the thick layers of Lamellor Ferro-Carbide, in fact thickening them in a few places. Also kept was the contingent of battle-armour equipped marines to both protect the ship and perform boarding actions against any foe it may encounter.

The first of the changes made to the design was reducing the dropship collars to four, done purely in an attempt to reduce the exorbitant cost of the ship to limited results. Other changes include the armament: with the previous designs lighter guns all replaced with a bristling array of Light Sub-Cap Cannons, 96 in total all in quad mounts festooned around the ship in a manner that can swat down any fighter strike while still providing some use as secondary guns against larger vessels. A substantial battery of Laser AMS guns provide more than adequate defence against all but the heaviest of missile salvoes.

For its main battery, the Confederation relies on a triple mount of Heavy Naval PPCs and a pair of twin Class-45 Naval Laser mounts in each quarter. Far from the heaviest armament compared to what the Maskirovka is reporting other nations are mounting upon their ships (especially the Kirishima II) but they do have the advantage of being ammunition independent.

When shown the final design the Chancellor was pleased, though he became less pleased when shown the price tag that came with it. One major oversight committed was that apparently the design team had not thought to check whether the Confederation still had a yard big enough to build such a ship (it didn't) and the need to build such a facility would delay construction until nearly 3130. Fortunately the shipbuilding knowledge gained from license-built Centrellas in the meantime would be instrumental in avoiding the gremlins that plagued the original Feng Huang.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Confederation
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $21,524,774,000.00
Magazine Cost: $24,000,000.00
BV2: 90,539

Mass: 970,000
K-F Drive System: Compact with L-F Battery
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
96 Subcapital Cannon Light
80 LAMS (IS)
12 Naval PPC Heavy
16 Naval Laser 45

Class/Model/Name: Confederation
Mass: 970,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 232,800.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 2,425.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact with L-F Battery (20 Integrity) 448,625.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 79.00
Structural Integrity: 90 87,300.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2766(5532) Double 2,039.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 6,972.00
Armor: 1800 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 1,746.00
Fore: 310
Fore-Left/Right: 300/300
Aft-Left/Right: 300/300
Aft: 290

Dropship Capacity: 4 4,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 40 280.00
Life Boats: 40 280.00

Crew And Passengers:
63 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 441.00
176 Crew in Steerage Quarters 880.00
136 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 680.00
276 Bay Personnel 0.00
50 1st Class Passengers 500.00
200 2nd Class Passengers 1,400.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00

94 BA Marines

Bay #1 - Fighters (36) - 6 Doors
Bay #2 - Small Craft (12) - 2 Doors
Bay #3 - Cargo (94,671 tons) - 2 Doors

Large Naval Comm-Scanner Suite
4800 Rounds Light S-C Cannon ammo (50 per gun)

Nose:

3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS

FL/FR:

3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS
1 x 3 HNPPC
2 x 2 NL/45

LBS/RBS:
3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS

AR/AL:
3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS
1 x 3 HNPPC
2 x 2 NL/45

Aft:
3 x 4 Light S-C Cannon
2 x 5 LAMS

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #54 on: 16 January 2024, 10:47:57 »
...
That's a solid design, the best armor of any so far.

Looking through the thread, we have quite a variety:
CC, Confederation: 21.5B cost, 970K tons, 4/6, LF, 4 dropships, 1800 armor, 108E/180M damage
LC, Raider: 6.7B, 150K tons, 2/3, 3 dropships, 180 armor, 42E/50L damage
MC, Centralla: 9B, 350K tons, 3/5, 4 dropships, 532 armor, 117E damage
Tamarind, Avanti: 17.6B, 240K tons, 4/6, LF, 4 dropships, 222 armor, 18E/120L damage
FS, Fox II + Tracker II + Monolisk: 28.5B, 430K tons, 3/5, LF, HPG, 9 dropships, 823 armor, 62E/182L damage
FS, Whirwhind II: ??B, 520K tons, 4/6, LF, NC3, 0 dropships, 494 armor, 51E/115L damage
DC, Kirishima II: 20.3B, 790K tons, 5/8, LF, NC3, 3 dropships, 1233 armor, 140E/152L damage

Edit: added peak damage numbers.

idea weenie

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #55 on: 16 January 2024, 19:00:13 »
Idea weenie: on the one hand, I guess I forgot the detail that the Magistracy lacks a yard of sufficient size to build a 700kt ship, and building it would put the cost of the project at the very limits of what the Canopians could build, leaving no wiggle room for the inevitable cost overruns.

On the other hand, the larger more powerful ship is a Confederation design I haven't finished yet.  :wink:

The hull 2* the size is only 1.6 billion more expensive, or about a 18% cost increase.  In exchange the Magistracy will get a hull with far more capability for upgrades and in the meantime will allow for safe transportation capability.  If using a fleet solely of these Centrellas you will only be able to patrol 5 systems instead of 6, but using one of these as a formation leader for the smaller Centrellas means its partners have a much deeper supply range.  The other option would be using this larger vessel for practice for LONG-term deep space operations.

So it won't give as much coverage (83% the coverage vs the smaller hull), but it will have an extra 100 ktons that can be adjusted to whatever the ship is expected to need increasing its flexibility.  If you need to deliver a disassembled but valuable space station to another system, you can take the risk of using civilian Dropships, or you can load up to 100 ktons of space station in the larger Centrella and ship it in relative security.  The larger Centrella can even stay on-site while construction is going on, or head back for another valuable load.

I think Cannonshop makes a solid argument for a collarless WarShip carrying a Squadron or two of Fighters and Small Craft.  Outside of Mobile HPGs, collars are the most expensive part of any jump-capable ship.

Lithium-Fusion Batteries also hurt in terms of cost, as they will triple the base costs of the KF core.  Considering that the majority of a ship's cost comes from the KF core, that is very painful especially for smaller hulls.



Has anyone done a cost breakdown on the existing designs, to determine what the three largest costs are for a Warship, and what percentage of the final cost they represent?

For example, the 350 kton Centrella costing ~9.1B has as its three most expensive components (prices are after the Warship x2 cost modifier):
KF Drive @ 4.59B: 50.4%
KF Drive Support Systems @ 3.4B: 37.3%
Weapons & Equipment @ 802M: 8.8% (of which the LNCSS at 500M is 5.5%)

So the KF Drive is 87.7% of the hull, and including just the LNCSS brings this to 93.2%.

The 700 kton Centrella costs 10.66B and its cost breakdown is:
KF Drive @ 4.6B: 43%
KF Drive Support Systems @ 4.8B: 45%
Weapons & Equipment @ 802M: 7.5% (of which the LNCSS at 500M is 4.7%)

Here the KF drive is 88% of the hull, and including just the LNCSS brings this to 92.7%.  The KF Core by itself barely fluctuated in cost, while the KF Core support systems were the key cost driver going up by 41% (they went up by 1.4B out of the total 1.6B price increase).

In terms of crew the 350 kton Centrella needs a total of 228 crew, while the 700 kton modification that doubles its mass needs 340 crew (~50% more).

Lagrange

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #56 on: 16 January 2024, 19:30:56 »
I believe the set of expensive options are:
  • Warship or Jumpship?
  • Dropship Collar Count?
  • LFB? (multiplies 1&2)
  • Tonnage?
  • NC3?(multiplies 4)
  • HPG?
  • LNCSS?
  • Repair Bay tonnage?
Everything else is typically small potatoes.

Daryk

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #57 on: 16 January 2024, 20:25:04 »
That sounds about right to me...

I'm beginning to think about a Taurian corvette (tentatively the Tentativa class).  No collars, "high" speed (for a WarShip), a Light Naval Gauss to kite with, some quad-mounted NL-45s, a few White Shark (nuke) launchers (maybe AR-10s for upgrade-ability), plenty of AMS, and probably some smaller AAA weapons covering a Squadron or two of ASF and Small Craft.

Smegish

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #58 on: 16 January 2024, 22:59:20 »
The hull 2* the size is only 1.6 billion more expensive, or about a 18% cost increase.  In exchange the Magistracy will get a hull with far more capability for upgrades and in the meantime will allow for safe transportation capability.  If using a fleet solely of these Centrellas you will only be able to patrol 5 systems instead of 6, but using one of these as a formation leader for the smaller Centrellas means its partners have a much deeper supply range.  The other option would be using this larger vessel for practice for LONG-term deep space operations.

Two issues with your suggestion:

1) Do the Canopians have a yard big enough to build a 700kt ship? I am assuming no as the largest JumpShip they are listed building that I could find is a Scout. Can they afford to build a yard big enough? Maybe, but the extra cost would reduce the number of ships that can be built.

2) A 350kt frigate with a relatively short operational range isn't a serious threat to the various factions of the former FWL. A 700kt cruiser with the other modifications you suggested is a threat the Anduriens and Regulans may feel like they need to do something about. And the last time the Regulans felt they had to deal with a threat they broke out the great big cans of concentrated sunshine, the Canopians want none of that thank you very much.

They are building a self-defence navy, not the Grand Fleet. If they really need a bigger ship and ask real nice, they might get the Cappies to send one their way to scare off the bad men.   :smilie_happy_thumbup:

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Design Challenge: Naval Arms Race in the Stone Era
« Reply #59 on: 17 January 2024, 00:31:45 »
So, realistically, what would a polity of 20 million on 3 planets and asteroids be able to field?  DropShips?  Maybe a JumpShip of some type?
"Does anyone know where the love of God goes / When the waves turn the minutes to hours?"
-- Gordon Lightfoot, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

 

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