Rise if the Bug Mechs: no skeleton, just shell

[Jeyar123]

So one thing that came up for "parallel tech" campaign was a faction with an overly developed sense of going "back to nature" and their tech for mechs was insect inspired, 6, 8 leg and such. But while their leg rules were a bit more like arms (lower max amount, weaker kicks that were as strong as punches, single hex turns were almost free per hex forward movement but no torso twists), the big change was no internal structure. points. Instead they had an impressive armor that took no extra space. There was mass for internals but only a ton per 25 tons of mech, rounding fractions up to the next half ton (so 30 ton was 1.5 mass and a 50 ton had 2.

So did these rules seem okay to you? Reasonable or creative, or not much?

[DevianID]

So rules wise, a strong outer shell with no 'bones' sounds like a tank.  Tanks get their structure from the exterior structure, to which armor is added, but the internal volume is not weight bearing.

I would design it as a tank with legs.  So the internal structure, like a tank, would be 1 per 10 tons rounding up per location.  I would also combine all the torsos into a single location, so like a tank you have a massive single location, but unlike a tank the head is still a armored cockpit as its driven by 1 person like a mech.  Armor maximum would be whatever the maximum is for an equal weight vehicle.

[Cavgunner]

I'm going to sound like a crusty old grognard, but what I think is that when you start messing with Battletech's core DNA like this it rarely results in a balanced or cohesive experience.

[VanVelding]

So one thing that came up for "parallel tech" campaign

I'm pretty interested in this in general.

The bug idea does have big tank energy, but it's worth looking into.

It's got more efficient structure and better armor at the cost of torso twisting. At a glance, it seems like it's strictly better, but this is a glance. It would need to cover a few other concepts.

-It's hard to create parallel tech in Battletech. A lot of things end up being niche, while just a few tweaks can beg the question about why everyone doesn't use the new technology.

-Why 6 legs? Why 8 legs? The questions should stem from a combination of the scientific advantages of each and what people think when they think of those forms. I like climbing. It's not a huge deal if 'mechs can scale 3 levels at a time or not, but it could be an unexpected advantage.

-Structure. If you're getting rid of internal structure as a concept and going for armor all of the way, you need to calculate critical hits and when a section is destroyed.

-You also need new hit locations. If you've got 6 legs you could make arms and side torsos into those legs on the hit location tables and make them generally replaceable. But you might need a wholly new hit location table too. Honestly, the adaptation of the biped hit location for quads has always created slightly unequal odds of hitting basically identical legs, so it might be an opportunity to make a to-hit chart for 'mechs with multiple pairs of legs.

Actually, TacOps might have a dedicated quad to-hit table already you can look at.

-Weapons. Biped 'mechs' torso weapons work in the arc they do because of the waist. Without that, you might be dealing with a narrower field of fire. How you mount weapons on a beetle- or spider-form comes out looking a lot like a tank, unless you go with the Starship Troopers-artillery-bug-one-big-gun philosophy. I could see forward focused mandible-inspired physical attack weapons.

-According to the science as I understand it, a lot of the reasons insects can have a shell body with goop inside is because they're so small. Scale that up to a 'mech and I think a lot of those advantages disappear. The largest dragonfly was 12" and the largest arthropod was 2 meters or so. That said, unimaginative people will always concoct reasons that the imaginary thing you and your friends use in your own houses is dumb and stupid and you shouldn't do it. The whole universe (real and Battletech) is silly nonsense that gets a pretentious defense because it's almost 50 years old. Ignore those people and do what's fun.

I am interested in the parallel tech thing in general. I'm working on a 3187 setting that focuses on next-gen/alternative techs at the end of the Succession Wars.

[AlphaMirage]

Agreed with the above, you could just use a vehicle sheet and, add a new motive option with a similar damage table, accounting for leg damage. That or look at the Quad Protomech rules for inspiration and just mount a main gun.

[idea weenie]

If there is no internal structure, that means the myomers attach to the exoskeleton rather than internally.  This means that as the armor is damaged you would also be getting critical hits that reflect myomers losing their attachment point and no longer able to work properly.

So each hit on a leg would also result in rolling vs the critical hit table, and if a critical hit is rolled you roll a number of D6.  If you hit an actuator slot, that actuator takes a critical hit reflecting that it no longer attaches one part of the limb to the rest of the limb, or the torso exoskeleton.  If you don't hit an actuator slot, there is no critical hit.  These actuator critical hits would be before the armor is lost on that limb.

[Jeyar123]

So, for the first outing, destroying the armor destroys a location. Crits are the same as normal for ones bypassing armor, but each leg can only carry the armor of an arm max. To hit locations are a bit different with the legs nearest to the shooter having 4 chances of 36, the next pair having 3 of 36 and furthest 2 in 36 for a six legs (So a side shot may have center right and front right needing 5 and 9). Side shots have a tiny chance of hitting the "rear" of the side closest to them (shaved from the far torso's odds). True rear can't hit the head unless attacker has reach (ax or lance) - anything vaguely direct fire can't without also being well above, but you also can hit the front side potentially. They can't torso twist, but can mount weapons that increase arc, and are more flexible turning slightly (its free) if they are moving forward or back as well. Not sure how they react to jumping yet.
Spiders are oddly more simular to normal mechs for their head is higher. No idea what their to hit looks like for legs, but I'm going to guess that the chart is going to look odd. These guys have a scary pounce attack then they jump jet (maybe on the ground too) its like they can convert movement into enhanced smash damage, but we only got bugs to look over after the battle. We took a lot of damage against what by my guess were the equal of scouts, but everything is repaired on our side now. They were scarier than normal light IS tanks, but folded fast once they've taken enough damage.
Oh also I think maybe when the leg was destroyed only damage to the "facing" legs was transferred, other legs was like partial cover and shot into the ground.
Anyway so far fun. Glad not like tank with legs. 

[Grognard]

I'm going to sound like a crusty old grognard, but what I think is that when you start messing with Battletech's core DNA like this it rarely results in a balanced or cohesive experience.

  I was paged? 
TLDR:
major rethinks of construction format do not gel with "balanced" "cohesive" or "logical".

... think of the catgirls.

[VanVelding]

major rethinks of construction format do not gel with "balanced" "cohesive" or "logical".

I guess if you're bad at game design.

But shit; the only way to be good at it is to start bad and keep working.

To summarize:
Two flavors: Bug and Spider

Bug

• Destroying the armor destroys a location.
• Front, middle, and rear legs have a max armor rating of the arm of a battlemech of their weight class.
• For to-hit locations, legs are paired by closeness.
  
  • Front hex: Front Legs (5, 9), Middle Legs (4, 10), Rear Legs (3, 11)
  • Side hex: Front/Middle Legs of that side, Rear Leg of that Side and Front Leg of opposite side, Rear and Middle Leg of Opposite Side.
  • Rear hex: Rear Legs, Middle Legs, Front Legs
  That's doable.
• When legs that aren't 'facing' the attacker are destroyed--when you shoot a far leg off--damage isn't transferred into the corresponding torso. That makes those hits misses. I wasn't a fan of that when protomechs did it, so I don't particularly like it. But then, it does give them a distinct feel that lets them buck the 'death spiral' units in Battlemech usually suffer. "You injured me and now I'm a little more survivable" DOES feel like a bug thing. Granted, that death spiral speeds up the game.
• Head hits - Is a 12 on a hit location roll on a table for an arc that isn't allowed to hit the head: rerolled, ignored, or turned into a floating/CT TAC?
  • I think you need a more rigorous definition of 'reach'. I can see an ax hooking around and catching on a head hidden behind the rest of the body, but not a straight lance.
  • The thing about direct fire needing to be "well above" also needs a more specific definition.
  • You said that 'true rear' shots (shots which trace LOS through the target's rear hex are always rear shots, so I don't think there's a 'truer' version of that), can't hit the head, that front attacks can potentially hit the head. Does that "potentially" mean it has the same 1/36 chance it always had or that has a reduced chance? What about shots from the side?
• Can't torso twist, but can mount turrets. Quad or battlemech turrets? If the body can block the head from the back, a battlemech turrets seems more appropriate. It would also distinguish it from vehicles a little more.
• Gets free turn when moving forward. I think regular battlemechs should get that, but that's neither here or nor there. When ending their movement on a hex which was in their front arc when they started their movement, they get 1 free hex facing move? Or do they have to move into a series of hexes directly in front of them and then get a free move and can continue?
• PSR bonus for stability like quads?

Spider

• Hit location tables: TBD
• Enhanced DFA: TBD
• Enhanced kick/charge or special physical attack

Is that about right?[/list]

[Jeyar123]

Head hits for everywhere like normal unless you are right behind it and the same level or lower, and think any physical weapon with a plus reach was given a chance to hit the head per normal. I didn't pay too much attention as I didn't have any. A twelve gave you a chance at crits in the rear CT when the head dipped under our sight - we play with two being a possible crit anywhere. When I said well above I mean you can't just be a bigger mech, but a level higher is needed.

I'm not sure which style of Turret, I just remember we could in theory hit them when deployed, and we hit the side like normal when retracted. I guess I could ask the tech character for more details. I've not used them before.

PSR bonus unless more than 1 leg gone for the bugs no idea on spider (1 missing slowed walk by one only for bug) leg. So the movement bonus was only after you moved forward and then after using you had to move forward more to get it again.

[Jeyar123]

Otherwise great summery. Sorry, but we almost never hit the spider, and I think it was a panicked slap from an (non-normal) archer with dumb luck. So no idea yet normal location like. Punch is like a quad. 

The kick thing was only seen after a jump, but we don't in character or out know much more, I get the impression due to how careful the placement was there is SOMETHING that is a negative, but the spider just like the bugs start out with only punch damage, and the funky jump-kick does a lot more (until we get a model to pick apart that's it), but it was (for some reason) able to do different damages on different turns.
Which is why I think it somehow is a little like charge somehow.