Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 192986 times)

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1200 on: 12 November 2018, 07:36:10 »
That part of refitting has always been there as far as I recall.
Ok. 

What are the thrust limits on a variant of a variant?

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1201 on: 12 November 2018, 10:26:45 »
Seeing four-digit numbers of machine guns on designs, I'll make it official that there *will* be diminishing returns from numbers that high. Each additional gun still improves your PD value, but the marginal increase from the 1548th machine gun will be very small indeed. At some point, you're saturating your fire control computers, and the rest are just doing the spray-and-pray thing. FYI, one of my background projects is putting formulas on some of my rulings, to ensure consistency. These won't be public, but they should help ensure things stay the same from battle to battle. I've got formulas for maintenance expenses, and I'll be coming up with one for effective MG count before the next turn.

A variant can change by +- 20 ktons, +-  10 SI, and +- 1 thrust. However, a refit is more limited, because you're stuck with an existing ship and not merely a blueprint. I can't check the master sheet at work, but I think I said that mass, SI, and thrust are all locked on a refit. Variants are for ships being produced new based on a similar design to an existing hull, which nobody has done yet.

That said, the TC's various Tick/Mother-portable station designs would all count as variants, for what that's worth. Stations don't have any thrust or SI options, so it's easy to fit within that range. I will add one more rule here - for stations to count as a variant, they need to have an equal number of recharge batteries. You can't really say that a Renaissance and a 500kt battlestation are actually variants of one another.

I haven't saved old designs for my ships as spreadsheets, and other than Kiviar I don't know of anyone who has. You'll need to re-build them in the spreadsheet to make changes. Sorry.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 11:20:09 by Alsadius »

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1202 on: 12 November 2018, 10:49:17 »
Seeing four-digit numbers of machine guns on designs, I'll make it official that there *will* be diminishing returns from numbers that high. Each additional gun still improves your PD value, but the marginal increase from the 1548th machine gun will be very small indeed.
Is this known at all?  Is it worse than the uncoordinated offboard fire control penalty (x4ish reduction?).  Or is this just to be discovered the hard way?
I can't check the master sheet at work, but I think I said that mass, SI, and thrust are all locked on a refit.
The master spread sheet says:
Quote from: Refit Rules
Limited by yard space - 10 per yard per turn. Cannot change SI or tonnage. Must do R&D for variant of the ship(=50% of new model's cost) before refitting.
No mention of thrust, hence some confusion.    Note that the Heimdaller II changed thrust by 1, so locking out thrust changes requires either retcon or grandfather.
Quote from: Refit
I haven't saved old designs for my ships as spreadsheets, and other than Kiviar I don't know of anyone who has. You'll need to re-build them in the spreadsheet to make changes. Sorry.
This is almost surely unimportant, but I'm happy to provide links to the TC designs.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1203 on: 12 November 2018, 11:07:30 »
Hemi I never saw battle, and IRRC was refit into Hemi II when we were still working out the refit rules.

Now, if you wanted a spread of ships with similar SI, different theust, same tonnage, nothing prevents you as I read it from designing a variant with higher thrust, and the  a variant OF that variant with yet higher thrust... but at some point - eh, just make new designs.  My core hulls (Walk, Tyr, Heimi) are about at the end of their lifespan - theyll probably get sold off or refit into non-combat roles, but they wont be in the wall of battle much more than a few more decades.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1204 on: 12 November 2018, 11:28:36 »
I haven't even come up with the formula, so there's no answer on relative efficiency as of yet. I expect I'll provide similar soft caps on off-board MGs as well, so it's not as simple as just jacking up your small craft bay count to compensate. I don't intend to publish the formula, even after I have it.

Limiting thrust changes on variants but not refits doesn't make much sense to me, and the idea of massively changing the ship's power plant in a refit sounds like such a big job that you might as well just build new in practice. It'll be locked going forward. However, I'll grandfather existing refitted designs, including your Matador from this turn.

As for links, throw them into your turn posts if you want. But as you say, it's not a big deal either way - the TRO provides all necessary info to reconstruct it.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1205 on: 12 November 2018, 11:33:02 »
I think a Variant could very well have a stronger engine. A refit, not so much. The cases where that happened in canon seem to be mostly downgrades, done by factions that had the know-how, but maybe not the resources for entirely new hulls, and from our point of view rather limited naval assets.

I've tried and recreated the Heracles, but I'm somehow lacking 60 Bay Personell and I have ~200 tons excess cargo.

Link

So I got a question regarding that:
It says in the spreadsheet that the cost of a refit is the price difference. Does that mean I pay extra if the new version is significantly cheaper? Should I strive to keep the costs similar?
Is there no other cost attached to this process?
And is it possible to trade tech or units with other factions? Say, NPC-Factions?

Edit2: While I look forward to and commend the diminishing returns on point defense, I'd definitely prefer if they diminished slightly less if spread over multiple ships. So there's a point in actually spreading the point defense somewhat.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 12:12:30 by UnLimiTeD »
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Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1206 on: 12 November 2018, 11:57:06 »
I haven't even come up with the formula, so there's no answer on relative efficiency as of yet. I expect I'll provide similar soft caps on off-board MGs as well, so it's not as simple as just jacking up your small craft bay count to compensate. I don't intend to publish the formula, even after I have it.
Ok, the TC will learn the hard way. 
Limiting thrust changes on variants but not refits doesn't make much sense to me, and the idea of massively changing the ship's power plant in a refit sounds like such a big job that you might as well just build new in practice.
It seemed odd to me as well.   
It'll be locked going forward. However, I'll grandfather existing refitted designs, including your Matador from this turn.
Ok. 

What's currently written could be interpreted as 'thrust is unconstrained for refits' or 'thrust is constrained as for variants in refits'.  I think I interpreted it the first way when checking whether I could do the Matador and then the second when Smegish pointed it out last night.  Given this, I'm fine downgrading to a 5/8 if you would prefer that.
As for links, throw them into your turn posts if you want. But as you say, it's not a big deal either way - the TRO provides all necessary info to reconstruct it.
One issue I noticed here: the new sheet doesn't seem to count fighter/smallcraft bays as equipment. 

I've tried and recreated the Heracles, but I'm somehow lacking 60 Bay Personell and I have ~200 tons excess cargo.
Maybe add some marines?
It says in the spreadsheet that the cost of a refit is the price difference. Does that mean I pay extra if the new version is significantly cheaper? Should I strive to keep the costs similar? Is there no other cost attached to this process?
The cost of a refit to a lower cost point is zero.  This also came up with the Matador.
And is it possible to trade tech or units with other factions? Say, NPC-Factions?
My understanding is that all possible deals are on the table.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1207 on: 12 November 2018, 12:11:50 »
Whelp, this was an unwanted post.
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marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1208 on: 12 November 2018, 14:45:33 »
While tech trading makes sense, Im not sure it would be good for the game?  Everyone is going to basically trade everything with anyone with whom they do not share a border - because to not do so is to get left out of the trading game, and get behind.

Formal and informal tech trading might well be a leadership or espionage function, outside our control, and handled best by the existing tech spread mechanisms.  We're the Chiefs of Naval Operations, not the Archon/Coordinator/Etc.

That said, Im pretty easy.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1209 on: 12 November 2018, 14:52:39 »
Refits are free if the new ship costs the same as the old ship or less. (The R&D cost of creating the variant is what will prevent abuse here)

PD diminishing returns will probably be per-ship, not per-fleet.

The new sheet is using CryHavoc's original formula for bays, not the one I edited into the new sheet. You can copy the formula from the first cell of the equipment list over to your copy of the sheet, and it should work the same as before.

No tech trading - as Marcus says, it'll be used far too much, and it's not likely to happen in-character. I won't totally rule out the idea of tech gifts from greater powers to lesser ones in order to harass their rivals - e.g., the DC giving the FWL a new tech so that the LC will have a hard time - but those will only ever be NPC-initiated (i.e., outside your control).

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1210 on: 12 November 2018, 16:15:38 »
Perhaps a compromise? Allow refits that change the tonnage, SI or thrust  (within existing limitations) but those refits cost 50% of the new ship rather than the difference?

As to tech sales, I am happy to accept the GMs decision on this, and will readjust my budget (again) when I get home from work

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1211 on: 12 November 2018, 17:42:03 »
So, for an example: assuming I'd ask the Rim Worlds if they'd trade a few ships 1 for 1, could I ask them for the specs seeing that mine are more expensive?
After all, I would assume it is impossible to do a refit without the plans.

In other news, I'm having trouble figuring out what the hell I could cram into that giant hull that I have a yard to build.
Oh, and speaking of potential techs: Maybe an option for players to research cheaper baseline maintenance for mass production? Or to specialize stations for it? I read a little bit of maingunneries plan, and I think that the idea of a streamlined navy with few shiptypes really hinges on that granting some kind of advantage.

Because right now I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a great idea to create a ship that mounts one of every gun or something, and I'm really hoping someone will stop me.  ;D

edited for typo
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 18:57:18 by UnLimiTeD »
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Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1212 on: 12 November 2018, 17:57:48 »
The main advantage it gives is saving money on prototype costs, something I have spent quite a lot of cash on

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1213 on: 13 November 2018, 01:44:59 »
Streamlining equipment doesn't, though.
If I want to fit my ship with triple turrets of NAC 10,20,30, a dual 25, a 40, 2 of every NPPC, every type of naval lasers in erratic mount sizes all over the ship, I kind of can do that.
Now, I won't, and I'm not sure it'd be such a great idea to get into the complexities of calculating the effect of parts commonality on maintenance difficulty, but I couldn't help but notice it.
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Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1214 on: 13 November 2018, 08:53:02 »
Streamlining equipment doesn't, though.
If I want to fit my ship with triple turrets of NAC 10,20,30, a dual 25, a 40, 2 of every NPPC, every type of naval lasers in erratic mount sizes all over the ship, I kind of can do that.
Now, I won't, and I'm not sure it'd be such a great idea to get into the complexities of calculating the effect of parts commonality on maintenance difficulty, but I couldn't help but notice it.

I mean, it is still a Battletech game. The thread of mine that I linked in the OP back on page 1 was an attempt to fix that, but in practice you can do all sorts of awful things to your quartermasters and nobody will really notice. Some players have kept with a simple supply chain even so(I think Smegish still only has three kinds of capital weapons), but others are getting more ambitious.

Even historically, this wasn't uncommon, for that matter. In the span of a decade pre-WW1, the Royal Navy went through five different battleship gun designs in three different calibres (12", 13.5", and 15"), and that was for a total production of 32 battleships. Now, they were being run by Jackie Fisher and Winston Churchill at the time, and a greater pair of mad bastards never lived, but other navies did similar. A capital ship is a big enough unit that keeping a custom supply chain for it is actually somewhat practical, even if it will occasionally make quartermasters cry, so messing around with what guns to use isn't as crazy as it sounds in this context. It's silly for a ragtag mercenary Mech lance, but that's not what we're playing here.

As for weird mixes on a single hull, though, that might best be avoided. Not because it's bad for supplies so much, but because it's bad for tactics. What do you do with a ship mounting HNPPCS, White Sharks, NL-35s, NAC-40s, and a mass driver? Especially when the ship behind it is a NAC-30 specialist, and the one in front of it is a screening unit with NAC-10s and Barracudas? There's something to be said for having options, but it's possible to go too far and wind up incoherent.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1215 on: 13 November 2018, 10:08:52 »
Well, if a ship is mounting a mass driver, it is beyond saving anyways.  ;D
That said, I just have this itching to have gun turrets with 2 differently sized guns on them.
Just, if I go with 25/10, I'd introduce new guns that I technically don't need, while if I go with 30/10, I end up at the 70 dmg threshold and feel cheesy even though it doesn't actually make any positive difference at this point in time.

Anyways, in case I don't manage to get my planning done until tomorrow evening (I'll be off for 5 days starting thursday), here's the link for a preliminary refactor of the Heracles that I'll provide fluff for at my earliest convenience:
Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Heracles Battlecruiser (Block II)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $8,321,238,000.00
Magazine Cost: $32,600,280.00
BV2:          86,596

Mass: 750,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
24 LRM 20 (IS)
176 Machine Gun (IS)
14 Naval AC 30
16 Naval Laser 45
20 Capital Launcher Barracuda
10 Naval PPC Heavy

Equipment: Mass
Drive:        135,000.00
Controls:    1,875.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact       (16 Integrity) 339,375.00
Jump Sail:              (5 Integrity)  68.00
Structural Integrity:      90                67,500.00
Total Heat Sinks:      5114 Single  4,550.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:      35000 points 14,280.00
Fire Control Computers:                 558.00
Armor:                 594 pts Standard 1,348.00
Fore:                 100
Fore-Left/Right: 101/101
Aft-Left/Right: 101/101
Aft:                  90

Dropship Collars: 1 1,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2.00             100
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods:            50 350.00
Life Boats:           50 350.00

Crew And Passengers:
49 Officers in 1st Class Quarters                        490.00
146 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters                              1,022.00
94 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters    658.00
212 Bay Personnel                                                    0.00
0 1st Class Passengers                                              0.00
76 2nd Class Passengers (Reserve Pilots)                         532.00
90 Steerage Passengers (Marines)                                  450.00

1 Fighter Bay    (38 / 6 doors)                            5700.00
1 Fighter Bay    (38 / 6 doors)                            5700.00
1 Small Craft Bay  (12 /2 doors)                                  2400.00
1 Repair Bay (Unpressurized, 20k tons, 1 door)               500.00
1 Cargo  Bay (58,423.720 tons, 1 door)                          500.00

# Weapons            Loc Heat Damage      Range Mass
6 LRM 20 (IS)        Nose 36 72 (3.6-C) Long 60.00
12 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 24 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 6.00
2 Naval AC 30        Nose 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
8 Naval Laser 45      FR 560 360 (36-C) Extreme-C 7,200.00
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 4.00
2 Naval AC 30        FR 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
2 Naval AC 30        FR 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
8 Naval Laser 45      FL 560 360 (36-C) Extreme-C 7,200.00
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 4.00
2 Naval AC 30        FL 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
2 Naval AC 30          FL 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 100 200(20-C) Extreme-C 900.00
10 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 100 200(20-C) Extreme-C 900.00
60 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 120 (6-C)  Short-PDS 30.00
60 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 120 (6-C)  Short-PDS 30.00
6 LRM 20 (IS)        AR 36 72 (3.6-C) Long 60.00
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 4.00
2 Naval AC 30        AR 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
4 Naval PPC Heavy AR 900 600 (60-C) Extreme-C 12,000.00
6 LRM 20 (IS)        AL 36 72 (3.6-C) Long 60.00
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 4.00
2 Naval AC 30          AL 200 600 (60-C) Long-C 7,000.00
4 Naval PPC Heavy AL 900 600 (60-C) Extreme-C 12,000.00
6 LRM 20 (IS)        Aft 36 72 (3.6-C) Long 60.00
12 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 24 (1.2-C) Short-PDS 6.00
2 Naval PPC Heavy Aft 450 300 (30-C) Extreme-C 6,000.00


The ammo output is completely shot, but rest assured every gun has at least 20 turns of fire.
Assuming I really don't find the time, and everyone else is done and wants the turn to progress, I'll upgrade the smaller yards in Atreus and Irian, spend my research money 2/5/3, and build a Heracles Block II in every free yard. Maybe a few jumpships to use up capacity.

Link to the original Heracles: Link

Edit: First draft of Fluff:

After a change of leadership in 2408, following the Battle of Solaris, the Free Worlds Navy set about evaluating its Naval Assets.
The existing designs were almost 50 years old, and while the march of technology had not been unkind, it was clear that developments elsewhere in the galaxy demanded answers that the ageing hulls just could not provide.
The admiralty launched a series of inquiries aimed at finding weakpoints in the existing force structure, and tasked their best engineers with finding solutions to any perceived shortcoming.
Several Conclusions were drawn:
  • Several large engagements in recent years, elsewhere in the Sphere, had been decided by the use of fighter-carried missiles, for better or for worse. While analysts deemed these engagements not cost effective for either side, it could not be denied that the Heracles class was lacking sufficient point defense. At the same time, it was obvious that the limited missile armament carried would not pose a serious threat to hostile capital ships in case of a line battle engagement.
  • The existing navy, while well maintained and with prodigious cargo holds, lacked long distance firepower.
  • The Heracles, in light of past engagements, was deemed too fragile to have a future in frontline commands in the decades to come. However, existing technology would not allow toughening the design considerably without creating and testing new designs at painstaking costs. It was thus decided to refrain from such designs for the foreseeable future and concentrate on improving the existing fleet until such a time where either new technologies or improved production capacities would allow a complete overhaul of the force structure.
  • While dropships, according to available reports, had proven their worth as 'ablative defense', naval command was unappreciative of their projected cost in offensive campaigns, which, while not planned at this moment, they might be called to conduct in the future. The excessive cost of jump-supporting dropship collars led accounting to question the wisdom of having multiple of them on every single ship. They argued that the maintenance alone would allow the buying of a drop shuttle every 20 years.

The immediate answer to this assessment was a large bag of compromises, which culminated in the Heracles receiving an overhaul:
  • While deemed necessary, it was ultimately decided to not strengthen the hull, nor improve the armour, as any significant changes would preclude the existing ships from being refit to the new standard. Given the relatively large complement of existing Heracles class Battlecruisers, this was seen as a greater benefit than a marginally more survivable new ship.
  • The missile armament was reduced in favour of banks of machineguns to improve survivability against the fighter swarms expected past the Lyran border.
  • All existing Autocannons were to be replaced with the newer, longer ranged missile launchers, mounted in dual turrets or triplets on the hull.
  • The fore-arcs instead received a substantial upgun with large Naval Lasers, allowing the ships to fight back against both fighters and larger opponents at substantially higher ranges. Reducing the cargo capacity was deemed a worthy sacrifice for this increase in capability.
  • As the FWLN ships neither fast enough to dictate engagement range, nor too slow to allow the possibility of retreat in skirmishes, the rear armament was to be strengthened with further long range guns. While at first, additional lasers were ordered, the engineering wing could convince the admirals to try out Naval Particle Projectors, citing higher range and armour penetration.
  • The existing fighter wings are to be complemented by a command element of two fighters each, to improve force cohesion. All pilots are allotted personal quarters outside the fighter bays to improve comfort and morale. In emergencies or prolonged operations, the bays still contain bunk beds, allowing replacement crew to be housed for sustained operations.
  • The new Ships would be built with just one drop collar, replacing the second with a partially internal, foldable repair dock to service dropships, up to sizes that couldn't even be constructed yet. Outside of combat missions, this bay would allow the Block II to carry a second jumpship internally, resulting in notable cost savings at the cost of a minor decrease in offensive capability.

The first Heracles Block II is expected to clear its moorings within two years, with multiple to follow. In addition, the admiralty sanctioned a refit program, intending to refit half of the existing fleet to the new standard within the decade.
A further expansion of yard space is meant to prepare for a substantial modernisation programme as soon as new technologies become available.

Doctrine Adjustments:
In case of offensive operations, capital missiles are to be used only against targets presumed to have insufficient point defence. Given the deep ammunition stores of the Block II, indiscriminate use against fighters is encouraged. 
Captains are advised to keep a sufficient screen of smaller craft nearby to not unduly weaken their own missile defences.
All League ships will continue to carry nuclear warheads. Pending the decision on the Ares Convention, they are to expressly be used in self defence in the face of a clear violation of what the military considers the common rules of engagement, citing examples such as using civilians as shields, firing upon non-military population centres, or refusing surrender.
If outside of league territory, naval commanders of all ranks are advised to retreat if the situation allows before resorting to the use of strategic weapons.
The fleets marine complement is meant to defend the ships against hostile boarding actions, and should not be wasted on the offence in the face of unclear chance of success.
« Last Edit: 14 November 2018, 05:37:40 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1216 on: 13 November 2018, 10:37:57 »
Id not worry too much about the damage threshold.  Were not really grouping bays and comparing threshold values in a strict mechanical sense.  Mount whatever feels appropriate and go on.

Agreed to some degree on standarization -  Ive tried to go with one laser, one PPC, and one NAC.  That said, Im not sure a mixed armament is -bad-.  Sure, youve got no single ideal engagement range - but that means you just identify your opponents and stay out of -their- ideal engagement range.  Wont make up for the difference if youve substantially less armament - 2 NAC 30s is strictly worse than 4HNPPC at -any- ranfe (barring high speed engagement) - but figuring the ideal range is always about expected damage and opponent expected damage in any rangeband.

Interesting redesign - I imagine your feeling the same pain I am with Tyr - repeat build/refit low SI ships cause youve already got the design, or pay for RnD (and increased upgrade costs in the future!) on a whole new hull.

By my math, if you refit all your CAs, you can lay 6 more THIS turn... (refitting that many will tie up two yards all turn, leaving you 6).  On the following turns, you can crank 10 a round, budget allowing.



FLEET STRENGTH CALCULATIONS
[/size]

I figured out the per-fleet throw weight and other considerations.  Treated missiles as half value (this likely radically OVERVALUES missiles, even at half).  Treat AC/2 as both 2 points of AAA, and 1/2 of a machine gun for PDS. 

Did not count small craft or pay note to weapon ranges.  Builds for FWL and FS are Projected (assumes FWL refits as above and builds 4 more Heracles 2, Assumes 4x Crucis BB build for FS)

TOTAL FLEET ARMOR/RESILIENCE (Standard Armor, Kilotons)
FS:  24.5
LC:  16.6
FWL:  15.7
CC:  14.5
DC:  14.1

Notes:  FS is a surprise winner here.  High SI from day 1 and little damage to their fleet after a history of easy, lopsided victories keeps fleet strength up. 

TOTAL FLEET FIREPOWER: (Capital Damage, Thousands)
FS:  18.5
FWL:  16.7
DC:  14.8
LC:  14.5
CC:  9.8

Notes:  FS, again - lack of combat losses, coupled with a focus on damage efficient short range autocannon, make them the winners here, again.

AAA/PDS Fits (Standard Damage in Thousands/MG or MG Equivalents)
LC:  71.6/6.5
DC:  15.2/2.5
FWL:  9.1/5
CC:  5.5/1.4
FS:  5.3/1.3

Given that the DC Outfitting fared reasonably well at Vega, the DC fit is probably 'about right'.  FWL is similar, with much lighter AAA, but nearly double the PDS.  CC and FS share no borders with a major carrier users, so their outfit makes sense.  LC is massively over invested in PDS/AAA, but (given results at Vega), should anticipate nigh total immunity to fighters and missiles.

Fighters:  (Naval Carriage in thousands)
LC:  6.5
CC:  3.7
DC:  2
FWL: 2.1
FS: .9

Interestingly, both the 'weak powers' (defined as having stronger neighbors on both borders) went heavy into fighters.  Based on the results of Vega, this is likely an error - but weaker naval powers engaging in radical approaches in the hope of making up their disadvantage, and then being beaten soundly when that radical approach fails, is a story as old as naval history.

Dropship Carriage:
FS:  67
DC:  34
FWL:  25
CC:  2
LC:  0

Originally percieved as an over-costed luxury item, the phenomenal success of dropships beyond anything that their armor, their armament, their carriage, or physics would have predicted proves that the luxury budget navies were wise to profligately waste cash on those luxuries.


OVERALL CONCLUSION:
Geography is ALMOST Destiny.  DC fared much more poorly than expected, probably based on heavy losses last turn.
FS looks better than expected - likely because they have focused on 'winner' technologies (NACs, Speed, SI) and
ignored 'loser' technologies (Fighters, Missiles, Cargo).  Having a solid budget and no real naval losses does not hurt.
FWL still strong, but suffering from having so much of its tonnage tied up in low-SI designs.  Its heavy cargo focus
hurts it on the numbers, but presents a large invasion threat, even if that tonnage is not divided up into vehicle bays.

LC and CC face similar problems, have attempted similar solutions, and have yet to profit thereby.
« Last Edit: 14 November 2018, 09:54:42 by marcussmythe »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1217 on: 13 November 2018, 13:55:59 »
Question for the Staff:

What value if any is there in having multiple ship types?

Observations:
1.)  Having a pure carrier just gives you 'wasted' armor, inasmuch as they will be ignored in the gun-battle stage.  Thats a HUGE disadvantage.

2.)  Having a pure gunship means you can end up with some idiot deploying them without carrier cover.  This makes you theoretically vulnerable to enemy fighters.

3.)  Having lots of different designs means the opponent can always pick out whats a danger TO HIM and engage it.

4.)  Having lots of different designs means that you have a lot of RnD costs.. each new design is basically a thrown away hull, and each refit is half of a thrown away hull.

5.) Having a uniform fleet of uniform hulls with uniform, balanced designs means nothing is unescorted, nothing is vulnerable, nothing is a more-valuable target for your foe, nothing can be ignored.  We dont have the design pressure that exist IRL that make 1 pure carrier and 1 gunship better than 2 hybrids.

6.)  Observation:  The DC would have easily another 3-4 major hulls had it less designs.  The FWL has profited by having a single design, and profits again this turn by refitting their entire navy for the RnD cost of 1/2 of 1 ship.  Now, granted, the FS has quite a few designs in service and has a very strong fleet despite this - but see earlier post for comment about easy wins, light losses, and choosing the 'winner' technologies.
« Last Edit: 13 November 2018, 13:58:10 by marcussmythe »

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1218 on: 13 November 2018, 14:09:35 »
The advantage of variety is being able to tailor your fleet. If the battle plan is to hit with a strike from 720 fighters before battle(to pick an oversimplified example), 1x Walkurie is a vastly more efficient tool for the job than 10x Monsoon II. We haven't seen much of this because the battles have tended towards Jutland-style "concentrate and blast away" battle plans, which don't reward options very much.

There's been a real dearth of superior command rolls thus far. I'm not sure anyone's won a command roll by more than like 2 in the past several turns, other than maybe the FS at Kentares(whose reward was an incompetent TH fleet composition, not tactical mastery). As a result, I haven't had much reason to break out the crazy complex IJN-esque battleplans. But if some battle's command roll goes 8 to 3, there will be some advanced things attempted, and they will probably work pretty well. Options will probably pay off in that case.

Your call as to whether that's worth paying for, of course.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1219 on: 13 November 2018, 15:02:26 »
The advantage of variety is being able to tailor your fleet. If the battle plan is to hit with a strike from 720 fighters before battle(to pick an oversimplified example), 1x Walkurie is a vastly more efficient tool for the job than 10x Monsoon II. We haven't seen much of this because the battles have tended towards Jutland-style "concentrate and blast away" battle plans, which don't reward options very much.

There's been a real dearth of superior command rolls thus far. I'm not sure anyone's won a command roll by more than like 2 in the past several turns, other than maybe the FS at Kentares(whose reward was an incompetent TH fleet composition, not tactical mastery). As a result, I haven't had much reason to break out the crazy complex IJN-esque battleplans. But if some battle's command roll goes 8 to 3, there will be some advanced things attempted, and they will probably work pretty well. Options will probably pay off in that case.

Your call as to whether that's worth paying for, of course.

I think its been fairly well established by this point that I have ZERO clue whats worth paying for.

Its pretty safe to say that if I got a magical do over button, the entire charlie-foxtrot that makes up the LCN would be replaced with something entirely unlike what I built.  Even Buri is a symptom, to be honest, of throwing good shipbuilding at shoring up bad decisions - but hopefully she can make the pile of seemingly reasonable but in retrospect HORRIBLE decisions that is my legacy navy functional while I try to build something that fits the game we are playing.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1220 on: 13 November 2018, 15:09:56 »
I think its been fairly well established by this point that I have ZERO clue whats worth paying for.

Its pretty safe to say that if I got a magical do over button, the entire charlie-foxtrot that makes up the LCN would be replaced with something entirely unlike what I built.  Even Buri is a symptom, to be honest, of throwing good shipbuilding at shoring up bad decisions - but hopefully she can make the pile of seemingly reasonable but in retrospect HORRIBLE decisions that is my legacy navy functional while I try to build something that fits the game we are playing.

You've been by far the most aggressive optimizer in the game, and you also have a bit of a hair trigger sometimes. Other fleets generally aim to be well-rounded, but you've gone for the "do one thing really, really well" approach. You've done the one thing well, but sometimes it's not the thing you need.

That's not to say you've been a screwup admiral, of course. Optimizing to some extent is a good approach, and different approaches do keep things interesting. You're still not as "different" as the Periphery powers, either - all four of them have their own unusual strategies(mobile stations, immobile stations, armed merchants, and "ZOMG kill all the fighters!!!1!", more or less), and all of them will be interesting to see in practice against a serious enemy. But when everyone else aims for good and you aim for perfect, you're going to have a different experience of things.

EDIT: Just noticed your edit above. Cool analysis, I may do the same for the other powers soon. That said, one thing I wanted to note:

Originally percieved as an over-costed luxury item, the phenomenal success of dropships beyond anything that their armor, their armament, their carriage, or physics would have predicted proves that the luxury budget navies were wise to profligately waste cash on those luxuries.

It's not the Navy DropShips that have been doing most of the heavy lifting. It's the Army DropShips that have been saving the butts of out-gunned invasion fleets. And even then, they're quite expensive for what they do, they're just being paid for by another service, so you guys haven't needed to worry much about those losses.
« Last Edit: 13 November 2018, 15:15:22 by Alsadius »

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1221 on: 13 November 2018, 15:38:35 »
I've ended up with so many designs partially because I wanted that spy ship (Trojan) which came in handy for the Layover raid, and partly because my first two designs (Kutai and Fubuki) turned out way more expensive than they needed to be, too expensive to mass produce in the numbers I wanted.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1222 on: 13 November 2018, 15:44:09 »
I've ended up with so many designs partially because I wanted that spy ship (Trojan) which came in handy for the Layover raid, and partly because my first two designs (Kutai and Fubuki) turned out way more expensive than they needed to be, too expensive to mass produce in the numbers I wanted.

*nods*  Its a learning experience all around.  Luckily for you, you learned IN TIME (I did not, obviously!).  That said, I imagine youll sell of the Kutai and Fubuki to anyone who will hold still.

Id sell my whole navy if anyone was buying and I had the yard space to replace it.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1223 on: 13 November 2018, 16:05:05 »
To step back for a second, I'm hearing several players complain about their positions being weak. Complaints about high losses, insufficient budgets, poor strategic position, lock-in to bad fleet doctrines, and so forth have come to me from at least three players(and probably more). I'm not sure where this is coming from, which makes me think I'm doing something wrong.

I'll explain where I'm coming from, but please note that this is an explanation of where I've been coming from, not a justification of why it should work this way. (In other words, I am open to change on this if it's making you all grumpy.)

This is Battletech, a fairly gritty setting where ugly battles, nasty losses, betrayals, and literally bombing people back into the stone age are a fundamental part of the setting. Warfare is endemic and bloody, and so you're all going to get beaten around a lot. Temporary advantages are possible, and your skill and luck will be sufficient to win you some advantages, but those advantages are unlikely to ever be large enough to allow opponents to be taken off the board outright. As such, we're going to be here a while, you're all going to take some ugly hits in the process, and the key is to fix those losses when they happen, not to avoid them.

Is this more or less how you guys have been thinking? If not, how would you like me to change it? I don't promise to do any particular thing, but I'll listen, and if there's really some unhappiness afoot, I'd like to know how I might be able to fix it.

Thanks.

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1224 on: 13 November 2018, 16:26:11 »
I'm not overly worried. I know I got hit with the big stick last turn, but as long as Mr GM takes turns beating us like a red-headed step child, I'm good.

EDIT: I did notice my budget basically didn't change from last turn, despite taking a few worlds off Ze Germanz, I assume I had to pay indemnity for the civilian casualties?
« Last Edit: 13 November 2018, 16:49:51 by Smegish »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1225 on: 13 November 2018, 16:56:57 »
Question for the Staff:

What value if any is there in having multiple ship types?
...
6.)  Observation:  The DC would have easily another 3-4 major hulls had it less designs.  The FWL has profited by having a single design, and profits again this turn by refitting their entire navy for the RnD cost of 1/2 of 1 ship.  Now, granted, the FS has quite a few designs in service and has a very strong fleet despite this - but see earlier post for comment about easy wins, light losses, and choosing the 'winner' technologies.
... now I forgot posting that for over an hour and look how the discussion has passed on.

I really see multiple designs as the future of the FWL, as well.
Just maybe not line battle designs. But, say, a fast ship, or some cheap armour boxes to generate ECM to hide behind, might come up in the future. I could also see myself adopting an interval approach where I update one design every second serious opportunity and another one on the other.
Well, and I do have that 1.5m ton yard.
You are right, streamlining one's force drastically eases the pressure on finances. I just wonder if, long term, that will still be such a big concern: If our navies grow, the prototype cost for a refit will be a far lower share of the modernization effort. How many ships do I even have?
From what info I've gathered so far, the FWL ships mostly aren't even outdated, technologically - not much happened on that front in the first turns.
The battlefield just had other plans as to what was considered necessary. And with the march of technology, those ships may actually become viable again. Maingunnery produced a thoughtful design that could still be used to patrol borders, show the flag, or transport groundtroops, even if I don't see a future for the Heracles as a ship of the line around 2500.
Btw, does the FWL have actual fighter or Small Craft designs, or do I use whatever is considered standard?
I suppose until now fighters were basically additional missiles, so their stats didn't matter whatsoever.

I have a feeling what I originally wrote and what I added now didn't quite match and my post is all over the place.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
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Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1226 on: 13 November 2018, 17:07:36 »
Specific fighters and small craft weren't a major concern when we started, if you don't have specific ones then some generic ASF/SC will be used. I could be persuaded to sell you my fighters if you want them.

Also, a more specific budget would be appreciated , when you have the time.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1227 on: 13 November 2018, 17:26:56 »
... now I forgot posting that for over an hour and look how the discussion has passed on.

I really see multiple designs as the future of the FWL, as well.
Just maybe not line battle designs. But, say, a fast ship, or some cheap armour boxes to generate ECM to hide behind, might come up in the future. I could also see myself adopting an interval approach where I update one design every second serious opportunity and another one on the other.
Well, and I do have that 1.5m ton yard.
You are right, streamlining one's force drastically eases the pressure on finances. I just wonder if, long term, that will still be such a big concern: If our navies grow, the prototype cost for a refit will be a far lower share of the modernization effort. How many ships do I even have?
From what info I've gathered so far, the FWL ships mostly aren't even outdated, technologically - not much happened on that front in the first turns.
The battlefield just had other plans as to what was considered necessary. And with the march of technology, those ships may actually become viable again. Maingunnery produced a thoughtful design that could still be used to patrol borders, show the flag, or transport groundtroops, even if I don't see a future for the Heracles as a ship of the line around 2500.
Btw, does the FWL have actual fighter or Small Craft designs, or do I use whatever is considered standard?
I suppose until now fighters were basically additional missiles, so their stats didn't matter whatsoever.

I have a feeling what I originally wrote and what I added now didn't quite match and my post is all over the place.

I agree.  I think 1 generalist for all battle duties, and then specialists only as unavoidably necessary - as given KF Core costs, ANY specialist is a Battleship that didnt happen, cost-wise.  Though even so.. Im wondering if given that fact one isnt well served to just put a LITTLE cargo, a LITTLE troops, and SOME fighter onto every NACboat, and make every ship a NAC-heavy generalist.  (though if Buri shocks me, I may reassess the role of NAC vs Energy Weapons)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1228 on: 13 November 2018, 18:19:54 »
Ok, the main reason I won't do that (Or at least didn't plan to, but I inherited a faction that does) is that NACs, fluffwise, aren't a lasting weapon.
I dunno where, but I've read somewhere that an NAC/40 essentially needs  barrel replacement after every engagement. They wear out.
So while the weapon is tonnage efficient, and relatively cheap, I'd assume their maintenance cost makes them fall even behind the chronically expensive and very heavy Gauss Rifles.
But yes, from a raw efficiency angle, producing middling speed NAC boats with integral fighter support, enough cargo for defensive deployment and sufficient marines to make boarding a risk sounds like a winning strategy. Biggest risk I see is that it's also a predictable strategy. Deep strikes need additional logistics support. An enemy could just create ships that are faster (for they are pretty much all longer ranged unless they mimic the armament) and fight on their terms.
If, instead, you make fast NAC boats, the opposition might be able to match firepower on slower designs, granting similar firepower but firing first. Your Buri is an example of that - a 4/6 NAC boat would potentially have more firepower, but you get a salvo in before they get in range. Of course, once ECM proliferates, we will see a period where short ranged designs are efficient because you simply won't hit at long range.
Really, the weapons to use seem to be NL/55 (or 35 if only used for AA), heavy NPPCs, and a flavour of NACs of choice - likely not 10s.
We will see.

Edit: I wonder if the FWL isn't also in a good position because for a turn it was a non-entity and thus not involved in large fights it could have otherwise been in? ^^
« Last Edit: 13 November 2018, 18:27:13 by UnLimiTeD »
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1229 on: 13 November 2018, 18:20:50 »
To step back for a second, I'm hearing several players complain about their positions being weak. Complaints about high losses, insufficient budgets, poor strategic position, lock-in to bad fleet doctrines, and so forth have come to me from at least three players(and probably more). I'm not sure where this is coming from, which makes me think I'm doing something wrong.

I'll explain where I'm coming from, but please note that this is an explanation of where I've been coming from, not a justification of why it should work this way. (In other words, I am open to change on this if it's making you all grumpy.)

This is Battletech, a fairly gritty setting where ugly battles, nasty losses, betrayals, and literally bombing people back into the stone age are a fundamental part of the setting. Warfare is endemic and bloody, and so you're all going to get beaten around a lot. Temporary advantages are possible, and your skill and luck will be sufficient to win you some advantages, but those advantages are unlikely to ever be large enough to allow opponents to be taken off the board outright. As such, we're going to be here a while, you're all going to take some ugly hits in the process, and the key is to fix those losses when they happen, not to avoid them.

Is this more or less how you guys have been thinking? If not, how would you like me to change it? I don't promise to do any particular thing, but I'll listen, and if there's really some unhappiness afoot, I'd like to know how I might be able to fix it.

Thanks.

Without reaching individual complaints, given the ‘grim gritty’ discussion above, one cannot but wonder that if everyone thinks they are losing - your doing something right!

I think the order of prosperity for the powers is:
TH (Duh - though internal division leaves them weaker than in OT.  A couple more coups or a nice nuclear civil war could unseat them, but would be an extreme event)
FWL (good headstart, weak neighbor)
FS (solid position, very strong fleet, weak neighbor - needs to avoid heavy losses till yards regenerate, could swap places with DC)
DC (lead in income, heavy losses this turn.  If it can breath while yards recover losses from high i come, could swap places with FS)
LC (stronger neighbors, solid yards though needs another 5 or a couple more 3s, climbing income may raise this long term)
CC (budget and yard constrained, recovering from heavy early losses.  Moving up from this position would take truely disruptive events)
RWR (largest/healthiest of the P powers)
MH (glorious isolation, could swap with TC)
TC (large unfriendly neighbor, wierd navy.  If it works, swap with MH)

 

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