Protomech vs VTOL

[Atlan]

So I was just reading the Protomech of the Week: svartalfa article. Interesting stuff, especially the idea of a flying Protomech- not just jumpjets, but full on flying.

But the way they described how a Protomech glider- a Protomech was a Partial Wing- worked made it sound a lot like a VTOL vehicle. Now, I'm not a big 'gameplay' guy- most of my battletech comes from novels, and the rest from PC games. So, people who actually play the tabletop, how does a Protomech Glider compare to a VTOL? What are the benefits and drawbacks? If you had one of each, both the same tonnage, which would win?

[Red Pins]

Hmm.  Well, it's been a while, but -

The Svartalfa uses wige movement rules - I can't remember if it has to touch down every turn, sorry - so it has a minimum movement on top of a ceiling.  It makes for an amusing blend of mobility and planning.  Weapon wise, the LRM-15 is better than most VTOL options, but there isn't enough ammo for me.

The VTOL option has the usual problems, mostly the "Speed, Armor, or Weapons - choose two." design paradigm.  At 15 tons (It is fifteen, right?) you might load up on RL-10s and hope to get lucky, or be desperate enough use mobility and close in.  Risky either way.

I'd prefer to be the Proto, myself.

[RifleMech]

Protomechs operate in points of five. VTOLs are single units. So a VTOL could have a harder time fighting the Protomech's greater numbers. Most VTOLs tend to be faster though so they'd be harder to hit. They also tend to have more ammo so they can keep shooting and take risky shots. If optional rules are used VTOLs can also carry external stores. That gives VTOLs an added punch. 

[Atlan]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear on what I meant.

Imagine a VTOL and a Protomech. Each is the same weight- for arguments sake, lets say 10 tons. Each has the same speed- say, 8/12.
(For reference, that means the VTOL has 6 tons available, and the protomech has 5250 tons available.)
Each mounts the same weapon (for arguments sake, 2 Inner Sphere medium lasers- yes I know they arn't Clan-tech, but the weight/heat/crit requirements are easily understood).

Putting the unalocated weight into armor, this gives
Protomech 1750 kg- 64 pt
VTOL- 4ton, 64 pt

This means that these two identically armed, identically fast, identical armor, identical weight units can be compared directly.

But like I said, I'm not a gameplay guy. How DO they stack up directly? Is one better able to dodge than the other? Or aim? Or take a hit? Or other properties I don't know enough to ask about?

[Cannonshop]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear on what I meant.

Imagine a VTOL and a Protomech. Each is the same weight- for arguments sake, lets say 10 tons. Each has the same speed- say, 8/12.
(For reference, that means the VTOL has 6 tons available, and the protomech has 5250 tons available.)
Each mounts the same weapon (for arguments sake, 2 Inner Sphere medium lasers- yes I know they arn't Clan-tech, but the weight/heat/crit requirements are easily understood).

Putting the unalocated weight into armor, this gives
Protomech 1750 kg- 64 pt
VTOL- 4ton, 64 pt

This means that these two identically armed, identically fast, identical armor, identical weight units can be compared directly.

But like I said, I'm not a gameplay guy. How DO they stack up directly? Is one better able to dodge than the other? Or aim? Or take a hit? Or other properties I don't know enough to ask about?

one is available to Inner Sphere forces, the other is not.

[AlphaMirage]

VTOL has better movement options than a ground based unit and a +1 flying unit modifier to its TMM. Protos do have the modified to hit chart where you can still miss even if you hit. VTOLs have fragile blades. I'd give a slight edge to the VTOLs but its like 7-6 just for being able to use elevation better for spotting and engagement control.

[Wrangler]

Svartalfa is essentially a Light Weight BattleMech but not in name.  I think the Streak LRM version properly one most potent version of this thing, i don't know if it's really able remain airborne entire time. Big problem is there no published record sheet for the it.

Still, i think it's far durable than a VTOL, but VTOLs table top wise are far easier to operate rules wise. Like the WiGE and the LAMs, their movement is hoay, but only the LAM i think can remain airborne without landing. 

[RifleMech]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear on what I meant.

Imagine a VTOL and a Protomech. Each is the same weight- for arguments sake, lets say 10 tons. Each has the same speed- say, 8/12.
(For reference, that means the VTOL has 6 tons available, and the protomech has 5250 tons available.)
Each mounts the same weapon (for arguments sake, 2 Inner Sphere medium lasers- yes I know they arn't Clan-tech, but the weight/heat/crit requirements are easily understood).

Putting the unalocated weight into armor, this gives
Protomech 1750 kg- 64 pt
VTOL- 4ton, 64 pt

This means that these two identically armed, identically fast, identical armor, identical weight units can be compared directly.

But like I said, I'm not a gameplay guy. How DO they stack up directly? Is one better able to dodge than the other? Or aim? Or take a hit? Or other properties I don't know enough to ask about?

Well, a 15 ton VTOL moving at 4/6, with 4 tons of armor (64 pts), has 6 tons for weapons. (If my math is right.)
The Svartalfa has 1 point more armor, and just over 7,5 tons for weapons.
Using standard Medium Lasers the VTOL and a SRM 6 + Artemis IV along with machine gun and ammo is the closest I can get to matching the Protomech.

So between the two, the VTOL has the vulnerable Rotor but it can fly higher. The Protomech is limited to 12 elevations above the ground so the VTOL can get above it. The proto also can't fly backwards but I believe it does get the WiGE Bonus MP. I think the Proto can get up to speed faster too so that's a plus for it. The Proto can land and walk into woods and buildings and underneath things. So I'd say that the Proto has the edge down low or on the ground, while the VTOL has it in the air.

Both units can generate the same potential damage but the Protomech's streak launcher makes it's punch more solid. However the Proto is limited by its ammo supply for all it's weapons. So the VTOL has an edge there but the Proto's stronger punch could end the VTOL sooner.

If optional rules are included, I think the VTOL would definitely have an advantage. It can carry rockets and bombs.  I'm going to presume that both can use the sprinting/overdrive rules. At least I'm going to presume the Proto can while walking. Not that it helps a lot as that only be 2 MP. I don't know if they can use overdrive while using WiGE movement but LAMs can't so I'd guess no. VTOLs can though plus they also have special maneuvers they can make. That gives VTOLs an edge in speed, maneuverability and firepower.

Overall, with equal skills, I'd lean towards the VTOL but it'd ultimately come down which one can hit first and more often.


 

[Cannonshop]

Well, a 15 ton VTOL moving at 4/6, with 4 tons of armor (64 pts), has 6 tons for weapons. (If my math is right.)
The Svartalfa has 1 point more armor, and just over 7,5 tons for weapons.
Using standard Medium Lasers the VTOL and a SRM 6 + Artemis IV along with machine gun and ammo is the closest I can get to matching the Protomech.

So between the two, the VTOL has the vulnerable Rotor but it can fly higher. The Protomech is limited to 12 elevations above the ground so the VTOL can get above it. The proto also can't fly backwards but I believe it does get the WiGE Bonus MP. I think the Proto can get up to speed faster too so that's a plus for it. The Proto can land and walk into woods and buildings and underneath things. So I'd say that the Proto has the edge down low or on the ground, while the VTOL has it in the air.

Both units can generate the same potential damage but the Protomech's streak launcher makes it's punch more solid. However the Proto is limited by its ammo supply for all it's weapons. So the VTOL has an edge there but the Proto's stronger punch could end the VTOL sooner.

If optional rules are included, I think the VTOL would definitely have an advantage. It can carry rockets and bombs.  I'm going to presume that both can use the sprinting/overdrive rules. At least I'm going to presume the Proto can while walking. Not that it helps a lot as that only be 2 MP. I don't know if they can use overdrive while using WiGE movement but LAMs can't so I'd guess no. VTOLs can though plus they also have special maneuvers they can make. That gives VTOLs an edge in speed, maneuverability and firepower.

Overall, with equal skills, I'd lean towards the VTOL but it'd ultimately come down which one can hit first and more often.


 

a vTOL moving at 4/6 is dead meat, the Svartalfa moving at 4/6 is NOT dead meat.  The proto can keep operating even if it loses the additional movment.  It doesn't lose the only motive system it has on a bad low level psr (known as intersecting the blades with the terrain and thus being permanently knocked down, aka crashing.)  The hit location table for a VTOL versus cluster weapons means it's going to have the blades stripped away (and crash) in short order, after which it is a terrain feature, not a combat unit.  (Fire and explosions are optional)

if you're building a 15 ton VTOL that is, point of blank, that slow, then it deserves to be shot down.  Hell, if you're flying one with more movement ability at those kind of speeds, you're inviting it to be destroyed outright (with ease and sausage sandwiches).

The roles aren't really comparable.  The protomech, in this case, is a high-mobility ground combat unit capable of operating in a walking mode and concealment in terrain that VTOLs really can't employ except as something to fly behind.  the VTOL exists to get a payload very quickly across a lot of terrain, whether it's infantry grunts, cargo, or weapons.  They have a secondary role in providing 'overview' reconaissance and/or attracting (and evading) fire as a recon unit, with a tertiary rule (based on loadout) as a harassment unit that is hard to hit, highly mobile, and able to begin causing problems before the merge of the two forces.

VTOLs are at their best, on bigger maps.  Protomechs are at their best when you are playing single-sheet maps with short sight lines where battle is joined quickly and positioning isn't as important as protection.

[RifleMech]

Any one who loses a PSR can end up dead, so why bring it up? The units meeting the ground also depend on how high they're flying. The VTOL can fly much higher so it has a chance to recover. I did however mention the vulnerable rotor as a concern.

The Svartalfa in the comparison doesn't have cluster weapons either. The SRMs are streak so they all hit the same location.  I'd be more concerned about that since the VTOL can't survive many of those kind of hits. The Proto can't either really. The Torso can certainly take more damage but the locations where the weapons are can be lost with one really good hit. So like I said, I think the one who can hit first and most often would win.

As for the proto's mobility on the ground, there's few places it can go that the VTOL can't go so VTOLs can do most of the same missions as protos. The existence of such slow VTOLs is that they probably were doing those missions.

When it comes to construction though, I was trying to keep everything even the way the OP asked. The VTOL could move faster. The way engine weights are for Combat Vehicles, the VTOL have a higher engine rating and speed without increasing it's weight any. And there's always XL and XXL for those with a stupid amount of money. The increased speed would help tip the scales in the VTOLs favor.

[Cannonshop]

Any one who loses a PSR can end up dead, so why bring it up? The units meeting the ground also depend on how high they're flying. The VTOL can fly much higher so it has a chance to recover. I did however mention the vulnerable rotor as a concern.

The Svartalfa in the comparison doesn't have cluster weapons either. The SRMs are streak so they all hit the same location.  I'd be more concerned about that since the VTOL can't survive many of those kind of hits. The Proto can't either really. The Torso can certainly take more damage but the locations where the weapons are can be lost with one really good hit. So like I said, I think the one who can hit first and most often would win.

As for the proto's mobility on the ground, there's few places it can go that the VTOL can't go so VTOLs can do most of the same missions as protos. The existence of such slow VTOLs is that they probably were doing those missions.

When it comes to construction though, I was trying to keep everything even the way the OP asked. The VTOL could move faster. The way engine weights are for Combat Vehicles, the VTOL have a higher engine rating and speed without increasing it's weight any. And there's always XL and XXL for those with a stupid amount of money. The increased speed would help tip the scales in the VTOLs favor.

because the PSR kill happens to a VTOL even if the hull is otherwise intact.  Unlike tanks, hovertanks, wheeled vehicles, battlesuits, protomechs, or 'mechs, losing your extremely vulnerable motive system on a VTOL is a kill, period.  lose the rotors, and it's not even a particularly good piece of cover for infantry, never mind an active combatant.  A fly-capable protomech still has legs and can still walk out (or limp out).  It also has locations that can't be hit (aka 'miss' locations), thus making slow flight a feasible activity, while a VTOL may have gained a magic shield over the rotors that drops damage, it doesn't drop it to zero, and it only takes five points on what really constitutes the majority of a vtol's locations to drop it completely.

thus, making speed the substitute for armor, thus, 4/6 is a truly bad idea on a VTOL, but completely okay on a protomech with partial wing.

tehn again, I'm approaching this from a perspective that assumes ground fire is a thing that will happen and does happen, while a lot of the more 'perfect' scenarios (like the ones used to justify the Yellowjacket's canon form) presume the other side can't shoot above ground level with any accuracy, or won't out of some gentlemanly sense of fellowship.

Most players who know they're facing me, load up on the vtol-killing hardware like HAGs and LBX's, because they know my tendencies...

[RifleMech]

Yep. All true. That doesn't mean that the ProtoMech Pilot is automatically going to win. Just that combat could take a bit longer than wanted. And I would think that the VTOL pilot would be hoping to hit first, hit the hardest, and hit the most often to avoid a slugging match

Also as a designer I'd get as much speed out of the engine rating as possible so the VTOL would be faster. The OP wanted everything to be the same though which is why the VTOL moves so slow.

[Atlan]

But getting back to my original point- assuming that a Protomech Glider and a VTOL have identical armor, weight, weapons and speed- it sounds like the Protomech Glider is the superior machine, because its harder to hit, and because it doesn't have a 'die instantly if hit here' function the way VTOLs do.

Is that about right?

[Cannonshop]

But getting back to my original point- assuming that a Protomech Glider and a VTOL have identical armor, weight, weapons and speed- it sounds like the Protomech Glider is the superior machine, because its harder to hit, and because it doesn't have a 'die instantly if hit here' function the way VTOLs do.

Is that about right?

with some adjustments to account for the 50 point invisible shield of damage reduction on the rotors, yeah.  (five one pointers in succession can kill the vtol, but a medium laser doesn't...anymore.)